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On July 10 2009 04:02 BisuBoi wrote:
The thing that really gets on my nerves is how these Western kids run in here and have all these lofty ideals, when they've lived their entire lives on the profits of rape and plunder. Sure is convenient to start declaring war is wrong and nothing should be solved through violence AFTER they raped and conquered the world and set themselves up as the rulers of it all.
That's funny... I must have blacked out when me and the other western kids raped and conquered the world. This whole time I thought it was my dad who put food on the table by working 50-60 hours a week for the phone company.
I'm not gonna say anything about china or these riots cause it's out of my element. But I do want to say as a tl lurker for a few years that evan is awesome, if you lived close (highly unlikely) I would immediately want to befriend you... it's hard to put this thought into words and probably impossible not to sound weird saying so but: it's rare to see someone with such a genuinely positive outlook on life that isn't weighed down by cynicism/skepticism. There's only one other person I can think of with as much of an uplifting personality (and I wouldn't ascribe such to myself)
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What's really funny is you're trying to be snide and sarcastic but you're really just showing how little you understand the historical and socioeconomic context of the situation.
There are people out there who have dads that work 50-60 hours a week and still can't put food on the table. Or even have a table to put food on. Or even have the luxury of their father being able to work from the comfort of his home. Most of them have to migrate far away from their wives and children in search of work only to be subjected to oppressive work conditions, attacks from the local people who feel they're stealing their jobs, and still make barely enough money to send home.
What you think is hard lower class work would be a dream for many around the world. And yes, a large part of that is due to the economic and social destruction caused by the colonial era in world history. Please save the whole "my struggle is just as hard and I've never gotten a free ride in life" line. It shows blatant ignorance of the harsher realities that exist in the world. There are a lot worse things out there than a 50-60 hour work week at a phone company.
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I'm not saying I didn't have it great growing up compared to many, many other places and times I could've been born in. Trust me I've been admitting that for quite some time. The reason my comment to you was so short... honestly I wasn't really hoping to get into a tl;dr discussion, but :\
Yes I'm being snide, but my father made an honest living and worked hard, and you saying I lived my "ENTIRE LIFE on the profits of rape and plunder" is skewing my situation a little bit.
In fact, my fathers job, "hard lower class work" as it is, would be a dream for most lower class americans right now.. you can't get that job near as easy anymore. It's still not that bad here, of course, but on the other hand I don't rule the world, as you said, by any means heh.
Look... I just don't like people implying that I'm responsible for my governments actions and meddlings in foreign affairs over the last 60-70 years, sorry. I have near zero power over what goes on in washington today much less the entire post ww2 time period lol. And I didn't decide where I was going to spawn on this earth either.
If I was responsible for everything I benefited from, I would be responsible for the whole of human progress in technology, engineering, and so on.
In my opinion you should learn to separate the general population from the government better, because it's not uncommon for governments to act in ways the public wouldn't support or better yet - without notifying the public at all before they act.
I don't like a whole lot of things about my government either, they take in a ton of money with taxes and spend most of it on things I don't like or care about not to mention their immorality in so many cases in history - cia overthrows, installing tyrants, selling weapons illegally, and so on.
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If you're not one of those kids running in here, preaching from their moral high horses, and condemning a foreign government for how they run their country, then my comment was not directed at you. If my comment was not directed at you, why are you getting offended?
And you seem to have a knack for skewing other's comments. It's plain as day that on one hand, I'm talking about citizens in Western countries having greater privileges in their life afforded to them by the actions of their ancestors. On the other hand, when I talk about "setting themselves up as rulers of it all" I am talking about America as a nation.
Even so, I find it rather facetious for you to claim that you weren't responsible for any of this, blah blah, I shouldn't be held accountable. So, Madoff's son shouldn't get his assets taken away, because it's not his fault his dad did all this heinous stuff, he should still be able to live his life and profit off the spoils right? By the mere fact that you have lived and enjoyed the prosperity of America, you are a beneficiary of the colonial system. Someone who is a beneficiary of the colonial system has less right to speak out against perceived colonial wrongs perpetrated by other countries.
In a nutshell, I'm saying if you're American and want to complain about China holding territory that isn't "traditionally" theirs, you are like the pot calling the kettle black. Yes, I hear white kids whine ALL the time about how it's not their fault, that they don't benefit, they're not the ones calling the shots. But you know what, it's BS. Separate the general population from the gov't? Yes, I would do that in a Communist country.
Those same "freedoms" that Americans are so apt to screech on and on about are the same freedoms that make you responsible for the actions of your government. The citizens of a democracy are the ones who create their government. That is the rhetoric of democracy, no? And their gov'ts aims are wholly to benefit their citizens. How are you going to now claim that the interests of gov't and citizen are divorced and that the citizens of a self-determinant governing system should be exonerated of any responsibility to said gov't? Does this not sound like a load of bull to you? You can't have it both ways, buddy.
Nobody is saying you should pay restitution for slavery, live a life of abject poverty to make up for the pillaging of your ancestors, or give up the Americas and return to England. That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that a lot of these kids who want to condemn OTHERS, should maybe stop being so damn judgmental and realize that what they condemn are the same actions that gave them their life of prosperity that they STILL enjoy to this very day. It's really a simple concept.
It's like complaining about other people selling drugs, when your father is a drug dealer and you drive around in a sports car all day paid for with his drug dealing. It's hypocrisy to the nth degree and anyone who's studied the history knows this.
Now if you DO renounce all claims to possessions and luxuries that were afforded to you by the colonial era, if you go to a society where your white skin does not afford you privileges, if you don't use your background to advantage yourself in some way, I would say that you are morally righteous enough to start criticizing others. And the counterargument is of course, well Chinese people have privileges too etc etc. And yes, they do. And many of those privileges were afforded by imperialist actions as well. The DIFFERENCE here is that you rarely see Chinese kids running around condemning the West for their actions and calling them morally reprehensible on a societal level and preaching about how much better their country does things than the West.
That's the difference. Most of the CHinese on here show humility and admit to mistakes and say so openly. Most of what I've seen in the thread are things like "we KNOW our gov't lies to us. We know shit is bad. We're trying to work on it."
Most (definitely not all. There are some great and well-thought out opinions as well). Western voices here have been "Chinese are disgusting." "Why are they such murderous pigs?" "What they're doing is WRONG!" There is a completely different attitude towards everything. There is an obvious superiority complex and this sentiment that they come from a higher moral standing and have a right to judge and condemn others. That is the difference. Chinese aren't trying to condemn anyone, they're just trying to improve their own lives. Americans somehow feel the need to interject their opinions into every issue and judge others. I'm sure Americans would feel just as offended if a bunch of Chinese people came in after the Don King incident and said shit like OMG USA ARE RACIST PIGS!! Horrible people, Horrible gov't!! And even then the context is not nearly the same because it's not coming in after 200 some years of rape and pillage and atrocities committed by Chinese people.
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So...the history of the world is the history of violece. The point remains that the creation of the United States, while filled with acts of violence, was the biggest step in the past 1000 years toward a moral world.
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On July 10 2009 21:45 BisuBoi wrote:
If you're not one of those kids running in here, preaching from their moral high horses, and condemning a foreign government for how they run their country, then my comment was not directed at you. If my comment was not directed at you, why are you getting offended?
And you seem to have a knack for skewing other's comments. It's plain as day that on one hand, I'm talking about citizens in Western countries having greater privileges in their life afforded to them by the actions of their ancestors. On the other hand, when I talk about "setting themselves up as rulers of it all" I am talking about America as a nation.
Even so, I find it rather facetious for you to claim that you weren't responsible for any of this, blah blah, I shouldn't be held accountable. So, Madoff's son shouldn't get his assets taken away, because it's not his fault his dad did all this heinous stuff, he should still be able to live his life and profit off the spoils right? By the mere fact that you have lived and enjoyed the prosperity of America, you are a beneficiary of the colonial system. Someone who is a beneficiary of the colonial system has less right to speak out against perceived colonial wrongs perpetrated by other countries.
In a nutshell, I'm saying if you're American and want to complain about China holding territory that isn't "traditionally" theirs, you are like the pot calling the kettle black. Yes, I hear white kids whine ALL the time about how it's not their fault, that they don't benefit, they're not the ones calling the shots. But you know what, it's BS. Separate the general population from the gov't? Yes, I would do that in a Communist country.
Those same "freedoms" that Americans are so apt to screech on and on about are the same freedoms that make you responsible for the actions of your government. The citizens of a democracy are the ones who create their government. That is the rhetoric of democracy, no? And their gov'ts aims are wholly to benefit their citizens. How are you going to now claim that the interests of gov't and citizen are divorced and that the citizens of a self-determinant governing system should be exonerated of any responsibility to said gov't? Does this not sound like a load of bull to you? You can't have it both ways, buddy.
Nobody is saying you should pay restitution for slavery, live a life of abject poverty to make up for the pillaging of your ancestors, or give up the Americas and return to England. That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that a lot of these kids who want to condemn OTHERS, should maybe stop being so damn judgmental and realize that what they condemn are the same actions that gave them their life of prosperity that they STILL enjoy to this very day. It's really a simple concept.
It's like complaining about other people selling drugs, when your father is a drug dealer and you drive around in a sports car all day paid for with his drug dealing. It's hypocrisy to the nth degree and anyone who's studied the history knows this.
Now if you DO renounce all claims to possessions and luxuries that were afforded to you by the colonial era, if you go to a society where your white skin does not afford you privileges, if you don't use your background to advantage yourself in some way, I would say that you are morally righteous enough to start criticizing others. And the counterargument is of course, well Chinese people have privileges too etc etc. And yes, they do. And many of those privileges were afforded by imperialist actions as well. The DIFFERENCE here is that you rarely see Chinese kids running around condemning the West for their actions and calling them morally reprehensible on a societal level and preaching about how much better their country does things than the West.
That's the difference. Most of the CHinese on here show humility and admit to mistakes and say so openly. Most of what I've seen in the thread are things like "we KNOW our gov't lies to us. We know shit is bad. We're trying to work on it."
Most (definitely not all. There are some great and well-thought out opinions as well). Western voices here have been "Chinese are disgusting." "Why are they such murderous pigs?" "What they're doing is WRONG!" There is a completely different attitude towards everything. There is an obvious superiority complex and this sentiment that they come from a higher moral standing and have a right to judge and condemn others. That is the difference. Chinese aren't trying to condemn anyone, they're just trying to improve their own lives. Americans somehow feel the need to interject their opinions into every issue and judge others. I'm sure Americans would feel just as offended if a bunch of Chinese people came in after the Don King incident and said shit like OMG USA ARE RACIST PIGS!! Horrible people, Horrible gov't!! And even then the context is not nearly the same because it's not coming in after 200 some years of rape and pillage and atrocities committed by Chinese people.
I bet you are really fun at parties.
And so what if I have a superiority complex? What is wrong with hypocrisy? Fuck you you fucking moralist -- I'll be hypocritical if I want to.
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On July 10 2009 21:45 lOvOlUNiMEDiA wrote:
So...the history of the world is the history of violece. The point remains that the creation of the United States, while filled with acts of violence, was the biggest step in the past 1000 years toward a moral world.
Yes, creating an empire through genocide, drug exporting, and slave labor was the biggest step in the past 1000 years toward a moral world. Fast forward a few hundred years and they've advanced to the level where they're the only civilization to use nuclear weapons on other humans. What brilliant progress! Although I guess the many splendors of internet porn in the modern era helps to wipe out the stain of some of these actions...
Now aside from my sarcastic low blow, I think America IS a rather cool place. It's just far from the heaven on earth that most Americans seem to think their country is: ie shit like "biggest step in the past 1,000 years toward a moral world." Do you have any idea what level of hubris it takes to make a statement like that?
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No, the point where your argument utterly fails is that Chinese kids aren't running in here and claiming they're holier than thou. They know where their privilege comes from and it's humbling to them rather than giving them a reason to evangelize about how great they are and what paragons of moral virtue they are and how the rest of the world should emulate them. Do you see that happening in this thread? When you can spot it and make a strong case for it occurring, that's when you can flip the script and start claiming you can say the same.
It's pretty hilarious that you're trying to cite all this when your first example is already dead wrong. Last I checked, Marx wasn't Chinese. Also, last I checked, Communist revolutions occurred when the lower classes are put into a state of abject poverty and use force of arms as a last resort to fix their woes.
Also, one of the greatest priorities of Red China was an expulsion of foreign powers. Explain how exactly the Communist movement in China would have had an atmosphere to blossom in without the advent of European powers invading China?
Then your little tidbit about German GDP is supposed to somehow prove me wrong. But I'm failing to understand your ineffable logic here. Smaller and less durable colonial empire? Germany profited immensely on the boom in economic trade created by all the activity of the colonial era. A large part of their growth also came from the fact that they had a lot of economic room to grow. When you take any bunch of fragmented and warring states, unify them, and then start standardizing their economies, you're going to see a hell of a lot of growth! To take one country's statistics, completely isolate them from their historical context, and then try to use the numbers to disprove colonial privilege as a theory is "laughable."
Sorry dude, you're going to have to come with something a lot stronger than that. In fact, your approach to this issue is quite similar to the one taken by those other Western kids who take issues, ignore the context, boil them down to simple dynamics, and try to tout them as proof.
I suggest you take your history books and reread them. Also, try to wrap your head around what drives scientific innovation and progress. I'll give you a hint, it starts with an E. I'm not even going to wade into the many Chinese invented technologies that were pivotal in the start of the Industrial Revolution. To do so would be too easy.
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On July 10 2009 21:51 Boblion wrote:
I suggest you to take an history book about industrial revolutions, another about the political history of modern Europe and to read the list of Nobel prize laureates if you want to understand why most of the "Western kids enjoy a cool life" ( which is definitly not true for of them btw )
Saying that the main factor was colonization is laughable.
I don't see what you mean by this. You can't look at the industrial revolution alone and somehow claim that that was the reason standard of living became high in the European countries without putting it into a social context and looking at the factors that made it possible. The entire course up to the Industrial Revolution was rather brutal: many people in the industrial countries themselves needed to be deprived of their livelihood, basically pauperized, in order to create a workforce suitable for industrial production; much of the capital that made investment into industrial production possible in the first place was derived from plunder of the New World, the slave trade, etc., among other factors.
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On July 10 2009 22:05 BisuBoi wrote:
No, the point where your argument utterly fails is that Chinese kids aren't running in here and claiming they're holier than thou. They know where their privilege comes from and it's humbling to them rather than giving them a reason to evangelize about how great they are and what paragons of moral virtue they are and how the rest of the world should emulate them. Do you see that happening in this thread? When you can spot it and make a strong case for it occurring, that's when you can flip the script and start claiming you can say the same.
Since when critisizing the structural organization of a government is "claiming to be holier" ?
You have a weird conception of arguments.
On July 10 2009 22:05 BisuBoi wrote:
It's pretty hilarious that you're trying to cite all this when your first example is already dead wrong. Last I checked, Marx wasn't Chinese. Also, last I checked, Communist revolutions occurred when the lower classes are put into a state of abject poverty and use force of arms as a last resort to fix their woes.
Where i said that Marx was Chinese ?
( hmm i have made an accidental edit so you can't quote )
I said that Mao was a communist and that the result of communism in China isn't as perfect that you want to believe. Is it wrong ?
On July 10 2009 22:05 BisuBoi wrote:
Also, one of the greatest priorities of Red China was an expulsion of foreign powers. Explain how exactly the Communist movement in China would have had an atmosphere to blossom in without the advent of European powers invading China?
Ah i thought communist China started at the end of WW2, you know after that U-K and United-States helped China against the Japanese invasion.
Maybe you didn't know much about the civil war between the communists and the Kuomintang members ( Note that i'm not even defending them or trying to prove that they were better than communists that's another issue ).
:>
On July 10 2009 22:05 BisuBoi wrote:
Then your little tidbit about German GDP is supposed to somehow prove me wrong. But I'm failing to understand your ineffable logic here. Smaller and less durable colonial empire? Germany profited immensely on the boom in economic trade created by all the activity of the colonial era. A large part of their growth also came from the fact that they had a lot of economic room to grow.
They have profited more than the countries with the largest empires.
I still doubt that it was the main factor. Protectionism was way mre important than nowadays and i highly doubt that France and U-K traded with Germany just to please them.
On July 10 2009 22:05 BisuBoi wrote:
When you take any bunch of fragmented and warring states, unify them, and then start standardizing their economies, you're going to see a hell of a lot of growth! To take one country's statistics, completely isolate them from their historical context, and then try to use the numbers to disprove colonial privilege as a theory is "laughable."
I'm not disproving colonial privilege. I'm just saying that post like that shouldn't be allowed here:
On July 10 2009 04:02 BisuBoi wrote:
The thing that really gets on my nerves is how these Western kids run in here and have all these lofty ideals, when they've lived their entire lives on the profits of rape and plunder.
Not only because it is inacurrate ( colonization wasn't the sole factor of economic growth in Europe ) but also because it is highly offensive and retarded to blame people for what their ancestors have done.
What about the thousands deaths of the cultural revolution ?
It is your fault ?
On July 10 2009 22:05 BisuBoi wrote:
Sorry dude, you're going to have to come with something a lot stronger than that. In fact, your approach to this issue is quite similar to the one taken by those other Western kids who take issues, ignore the context, boil them down to simple dynamics, and try to tout them as proof.
I suggest you take your history books and reread them. Also, try to wrap your head around what drives scientific innovation and progress. I'll give you a hint, it starts with an E. I'm not even going to wade into the many Chinese invented technologies that were pivotal in the start of the Industrial Revolution. To do so would be too easy.
And so ?
I'm not trying to make a national dick wawing contest about technologies and you are actually right when you say that "Chinese invented technologies that were pivotal in the start of the industrial revolution" but your sentence that i quoted first is still retarded.
But why they failed to use it properly and to start their own industrial revolution at the same time than Japan or European countries is the real question.
And you can't only blame the European people for that.
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On July 10 2009 22:29 Skeetzsche wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2009 21:51 Boblion wrote:
I suggest you to take an history book about industrial revolutions, another about the political history of modern Europe and to read the list of Nobel prize laureates if you want to understand why most of the "Western kids enjoy a cool life" ( which is definitly not true for of them btw )
Saying that the main factor was colonization is laughable. I don't see what you mean by this. You can't look at the industrial revolution alone and somehow claim that that was the reason standard of living became high in the European countries without putting it into a social context and looking at the factors that made it possible. The entire course up to the Industrial Revolution was rather brutal: many people in the industrial countries themselves needed to be deprived of their livelihood, basically pauperized, in order to create a workforce suitable for industrial production; much of the capital that made investment into industrial production possible in the first place was derived from plunder of the New World, the slave trade, etc., among other factors.
If he have made this kind of post i would have not objected 
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On July 10 2009 21:48 lOvOlUNiMEDiA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2009 21:45 BisuBoi wrote:
If you're not one of those kids running in here, preaching from their moral high horses, and condemning a foreign government for how they run their country, then my comment was not directed at you. If my comment was not directed at you, why are you getting offended?
And you seem to have a knack for skewing other's comments. It's plain as day that on one hand, I'm talking about citizens in Western countries having greater privileges in their life afforded to them by the actions of their ancestors. On the other hand, when I talk about "setting themselves up as rulers of it all" I am talking about America as a nation.
Even so, I find it rather facetious for you to claim that you weren't responsible for any of this, blah blah, I shouldn't be held accountable. So, Madoff's son shouldn't get his assets taken away, because it's not his fault his dad did all this heinous stuff, he should still be able to live his life and profit off the spoils right? By the mere fact that you have lived and enjoyed the prosperity of America, you are a beneficiary of the colonial system. Someone who is a beneficiary of the colonial system has less right to speak out against perceived colonial wrongs perpetrated by other countries.
In a nutshell, I'm saying if you're American and want to complain about China holding territory that isn't "traditionally" theirs, you are like the pot calling the kettle black. Yes, I hear white kids whine ALL the time about how it's not their fault, that they don't benefit, they're not the ones calling the shots. But you know what, it's BS. Separate the general population from the gov't? Yes, I would do that in a Communist country.
Those same "freedoms" that Americans are so apt to screech on and on about are the same freedoms that make you responsible for the actions of your government. The citizens of a democracy are the ones who create their government. That is the rhetoric of democracy, no? And their gov'ts aims are wholly to benefit their citizens. How are you going to now claim that the interests of gov't and citizen are divorced and that the citizens of a self-determinant governing system should be exonerated of any responsibility to said gov't? Does this not sound like a load of bull to you? You can't have it both ways, buddy.
Nobody is saying you should pay restitution for slavery, live a life of abject poverty to make up for the pillaging of your ancestors, or give up the Americas and return to England. That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that a lot of these kids who want to condemn OTHERS, should maybe stop being so damn judgmental and realize that what they condemn are the same actions that gave them their life of prosperity that they STILL enjoy to this very day. It's really a simple concept.
It's like complaining about other people selling drugs, when your father is a drug dealer and you drive around in a sports car all day paid for with his drug dealing. It's hypocrisy to the nth degree and anyone who's studied the history knows this.
Now if you DO renounce all claims to possessions and luxuries that were afforded to you by the colonial era, if you go to a society where your white skin does not afford you privileges, if you don't use your background to advantage yourself in some way, I would say that you are morally righteous enough to start criticizing others. And the counterargument is of course, well Chinese people have privileges too etc etc. And yes, they do. And many of those privileges were afforded by imperialist actions as well. The DIFFERENCE here is that you rarely see Chinese kids running around condemning the West for their actions and calling them morally reprehensible on a societal level and preaching about how much better their country does things than the West.
That's the difference. Most of the CHinese on here show humility and admit to mistakes and say so openly. Most of what I've seen in the thread are things like "we KNOW our gov't lies to us. We know shit is bad. We're trying to work on it."
Most (definitely not all. There are some great and well-thought out opinions as well). Western voices here have been "Chinese are disgusting." "Why are they such murderous pigs?" "What they're doing is WRONG!" There is a completely different attitude towards everything. There is an obvious superiority complex and this sentiment that they come from a higher moral standing and have a right to judge and condemn others. That is the difference. Chinese aren't trying to condemn anyone, they're just trying to improve their own lives. Americans somehow feel the need to interject their opinions into every issue and judge others. I'm sure Americans would feel just as offended if a bunch of Chinese people came in after the Don King incident and said shit like OMG USA ARE RACIST PIGS!! Horrible people, Horrible gov't!! And even then the context is not nearly the same because it's not coming in after 200 some years of rape and pillage and atrocities committed by Chinese people.
I bet you are really fun at parties. And so what if I have a superiority complex? What is wrong with hypocrisy? Fuck you you fucking moralist -- I'll be hypocritical if I want to.
lol wow, some of you people are just hilarious.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2009 21:45 BisuBoi wrote:
If you're not one of those kids running in here, preaching from their moral high horses, and condemning a foreign government for how they run their country, then my comment was not directed at you. If my comment was not directed at you, why are you getting offended?
I guess I felt you were making a blanket statement... maybe this wasn't the time and place to make a snide, deadpan remark.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2009 21:45 BisuBoi wrote:
And you seem to have a knack for skewing other's comments. It's plain as day that on one hand, I'm talking about citizens in Western countries having greater privileges in their life afforded to them by the actions of their ancestors. On the other hand, when I talk about "setting themselves up as rulers of it all" I am talking about America as a nation.
You are still connecting them together in some moral sense, although yea i did skew this some.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2009 21:45 BisuBoi wrote:Even so, I find it rather facetious for you to claim that you weren't responsible for any of this, blah blah, I shouldn't be held accountable. So, Madoff's son shouldn't get his assets taken away, because it's not his fault his dad did all this heinous stuff, he should still be able to live his life and profit off the spoils right? By the mere fact that you have lived and enjoyed the prosperity of America, you are a beneficiary of the colonial system. Someone who is a beneficiary of the colonial system has less right to speak out against perceived colonial wrongs perpetrated by other countries.
The colonial system? How far are we going back here? Must I agree with the fact that the original white settlers in america purposefully gave the natives diseases and drove them off their land just because I was born and stayed around my family in an area that the native americans resided and have a right to, even though that was 250 years ago? That's a ridiculous standard of hypocrisy.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2009 21:45 BisuBoi wrote:
In a nutshell, I'm saying if you're American and want to complain about China holding territory that isn't "traditionally" theirs, you are like the pot calling the kettle black. Yes, I hear white kids whine ALL the time about how it's not their fault, that they don't benefit, they're not the ones calling the shots. But you know what, it's BS. Separate the general population from the gov't? Yes, I would do that in a Communist country.
Those same "freedoms" that Americans are so apt to screech on and on about are the same freedoms that make you responsible for the actions of your government. The citizens of a democracy are the ones who create their government. That is the rhetoric of democracy, no? And their gov'ts aims are wholly to benefit their citizens. How are you going to now claim that the interests of gov't and citizen are divorced and that the citizens of a self-determinant governing system should be exonerated of any responsibility to said gov't? Does this not sound like a load of bull to you? You can't have it both ways, buddy.
The only freedoms I would screech about some of the ones given to us in the bill of rights. Yes, you are correct on the rhetoric of democracy. But this isn't a perfect world where politicians are noble, enlightened, morally sound statesmen like envisioned by the founding fathers here.
Anyway, check out this quote from the leading framer of our constitution, james madison : "Democracy is the most vile form of government... democracies have ever
been spectacles of turbulence and contention: have ever been found
incompatible with personal security or the rights of property:
and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. "
If only politicians were 1/10th this honest now!
The US isn't a democracy anyway.
Say what you will about noam chomsky.. but I love listening to him talk about propaganda and public relations and opinion in particular -
"There's some differences, and the differences are quite enlightening. I should say, however, that I'm expressing a very conventional thought – 80 per cent of the population thinks, if you read the words of the polls, that the government is run by a few big interests looking out for themselves not for the population [and] 95 per cent of the public thinks that the government ought to pay attention to public opinion but it doesn't.
As far as the elections are concerned, I forget the exact figure but by about three to one people wish that the elections were about issues, not about marginal character qualities and so on." - noam chomsky (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2008/06/2008624202053652281.html)
+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2009 21:45 BisuBoi wrote:
Nobody is saying you should pay restitution for slavery, live a life of abject poverty to make up for the pillaging of your ancestors, or give up the Americas and return to England. That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that a lot of these kids who want to condemn OTHERS, should maybe stop being so damn judgmental and realize that what they condemn are the same actions that gave them their life of prosperity that they STILL enjoy to this very day. It's really a simple concept.
same thing, diseases / indians / blankets.. why can't I disagree with what the colonial settlers did 250 years ago just because I still live here? I'm not really getting into the china debate here, but in general I think you vastly overstate the hypocrisy in an american disagreeing with forceful colonial age actions elsewhere if they also disagree with the ones that happened in america.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2009 21:45 BisuBoi wrote:
It's like complaining about other people selling drugs, when your father is a drug dealer and you drive around in a sports car all day paid for with his drug dealing. It's hypocrisy to the nth degree and anyone who's studied the history knows this.
More like complaining about other people selling drugs, when your great great grandfather was a drug dealer and his son built a house with some of his inheritance that you, his sons' great grandfather, now use for shelter and a home.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2009 21:45 BisuBoi wrote:
Now if you DO renounce all claims to possessions and luxuries that were afforded to you by the colonial era, if you go to a society where your white skin does not afford you privileges, if you don't use your background to advantage yourself in some way, I would say that you are morally righteous enough to start criticizing others. And the counterargument is of course, well Chinese people have privileges too etc etc. And yes, they do. And many of those privileges were afforded by imperialist actions as well. The DIFFERENCE here is that you rarely see Chinese kids running around condemning the West for their actions and calling them morally reprehensible on a societal level and preaching about how much better their country does things than the West.
society where your white skin does not afford you privileges?
it doesnt..
the other stuff seems hard to quantify, but its there, so ok.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2009 21:45 BisuBoi wrote:
That's the difference. Most of the CHinese on here show humility and admit to mistakes and say so openly. Most of what I've seen in the thread are things like "we KNOW our gov't lies to us. We know shit is bad. We're trying to work on it."
Most (definitely not all. There are some great and well-thought out opinions as well). Western voices here have been "Chinese are disgusting." "Why are they such murderous pigs?" "What they're doing is WRONG!" There is a completely different attitude towards everything. There is an obvious superiority complex and this sentiment that they come from a higher moral standing and have a right to judge and condemn others. That is the difference. Chinese aren't trying to condemn anyone, they're just trying to improve their own lives. Americans somehow feel the need to interject their opinions into every issue and judge others. I'm sure Americans would feel just as offended if a bunch of Chinese people came in after the Don King incident and said shit like OMG USA ARE RACIST PIGS!! Horrible people, Horrible gov't!! And even then the context is not nearly the same because it's not coming in after 200 some years of rape and pillage and atrocities committed by Chinese people.
I didn't really see someone say "chinese are disgusting" or "murderous pigs" but that's bunk if they did.
Not going to argue, there's definitely alot of puffed up people like that in america. I'd think they're human flaws and the majority of people share them to some degree, but probably exacerbated by our culture.
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I think the only China riot is in this thread. I better put my welding goggles on because the ignorance is blinding.
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HEY BRO I'LL BE HYPOCRITICAL IF I WANT TO.
FUCK YOU.
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Oh and I'm gonna add one more bit, to the people bitching about how you have to move to other countries to find work because things are so rough. There's one thing I'll say about America is instead of moving all over the world to find work, we solve the problems inside our own country, not leech off other countries because we don't have the resolve to fix our own shit. So there you go Chinese nationalism in this thread meet American nationalism and we have the fatter cocks on the block, gg.
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You're definitely not one of those people I was talking about Zoast. So please don't get offended. I have to disagree with some of your points though. If America is land of the free, land of opportunity, etc etc, why is it Americans are always denouncing other governments? Then they denounce their own! And yes, I'm fully aware that America is a constitutionally representative republic, but it sounds really damn anal retentive to say that all the time, so I use democracy as short handle.
The problem with it is that SOME (emphasis on some) Americans on one hand claim their way of life is superior to all others, on the other they're always complaining about their own gov't! Now, I'm trying to make a strong distinction here. There's nothing wrong with being an American with opinions. There is something wrong with having opinions based on American propaganda that it is the home of the free etc and then to go around characterizing the rest of the world as dictators, tyrants, and communists. Not all Americans do this. I only take issue with the ones that do.
And the reasons I take issue with it is that America is just as flawed a country as any, with just as many skeletons in its closet, and in fact, America is uniquely positioned as one of the countries which has MOST profited off the practices of imperialism and colonialism. America, above all other countries, is the greatest beneficiary of the current world order.
You have every right to disagree with what the colonialists did. But paying lip service to something and actually boycotting it are two totally different things. It's like the analogy you are making about the drug dealers, which I find is a more accurate one than the one I made. If you know that the roof you live under was built with drug and blood money, do you think it is morally righteous for you to continue living there while condemning the sale of drugs? Or would it not be more righteous and moral of you to MOVE OUT of that home and THEN seek to condemn the sale of drugs? Because that is the moral dilemma Americans face when they cry outrage at the imperialist actions of others. And I find it ludicrous to say something like "well, I was born here. It wasn't my choice." Yes, it wasn't your choice, but it is your choice to REMAIN there. And by remaining there you become an accomplice to the crime. Just as someone who sees a crime occurring, does nothing to stop it while having full knowledge that it is a crime, could be considered an accomplice in a court of law.
On the white skin thing, I really hate to do it because it's a dick move and I feel resentful when others pull this card on me, but the fact remains that you don't know what you're missing out on until it's not there. You are blind to the many advantages you have due to your skin color because you've never lived with the absence of it! Live in the shoes of a black man in American society for 20 years and I guarantee you would be singing a different tune about what benefits your skin color can bring you. The funny thing is most of the white people who complain about oppression of the Uighurs are often the same ones who cry about how unfair it is that others talk about white privilege because minorities have all the benefits. In China, the Uighurs have all the extra benefits on paper too. Do you think it really adds up to an actual advantage in practice?
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On July 10 2009 23:23 Alizee- wrote:
Oh and I'm gonna add one more bit, to the people bitching about how you have to move to other countries to find work because things are so rough. There's one thing I'll say about America is instead of moving all over the world to find work, we solve the problems inside our own country, not leech off other countries because we don't have the resolve to fix our own shit. So there you go Chinese nationalism in this thread meet American nationalism and we have the fatter cocks on the block, gg.
Aside from this being an obvious attempt at trolling, it's also incredibly easy to rebut. America's economic problems are being solved by Chinese financing. Sorry, your "resolve" to fix your own shit is to borrow from the Chinese.
To make an even greater laughingstock of your point, America is a nation of immigrants who fled from religious persecution or left in search of economic opportunity. Therefore, America would in fact be the world's greatest example of people leaving to find work elsewhere. It's just when they went elsewhere, instead of trying to integrate and contribute to the societies they found, they decided they had the wherewithal to take things by force.
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On July 10 2009 23:23 Alizee- wrote:
Oh and I'm gonna add one more bit, to the people bitching about how you have to move to other countries to find work because things are so rough. There's one thing I'll say about America is instead of moving all over the world to find work, we solve the problems inside our own country, not leech off other countries because we don't have the resolve to fix our own shit. So there you go Chinese nationalism in this thread meet American nationalism and we have the fatter cocks on the block, gg.
Actually the US does work all over the world, except the government does it so the people don't have to; providing military aid and funding to terrorist organizations to set up their US friendly regimes (Israel, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Indonesia to list a few) and practicing international terrorism (war crimes) themselves.
US Imperialism doesn't refer to just Christopher Columbus and co. raping and killing Injuns, it is and always has been since at least the end of WWII the world order. The reason why US citizens can enjoy better living conditions than most of the world is because the US has been enforcing it's stance as the ruler of the world using military aggression, not because they have the "resolve to fix our own shit".
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EPT
