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On July 10 2009 23:33 BisuBoi wrote:
If you know that the roof you live under was built with drug and blood money, do you think it is morally righteous for you to continue living there while condemning the sale of drugs? Or would it not be more righteous and moral of you to MOVE OUT of that home and THEN seek to condemn the sale of drugs? Because that is the moral dilemma Americans face when they cry outrage at the imperialist actions of others. And I find it ludicrous to say something like "well, I was born here. It wasn't my choice." Yes, it wasn't your choice, but it is your choice to REMAIN there. And by remaining there you become an accomplice to the crime. Just as someone who sees a crime occurring, does nothing to stop it while having full knowledge that it is a crime, could be considered an accomplice in a court of law.
I edited the wording of my analogy, dunno if you saw, to say (or I meant to say this at least, i screwed up the wording still) that the house was only partially built from my drug dealing ancestors sons inheritance money. It may be more moral to move out of the house, but continuing the analogy... which house do i move to and are there any that were not built, at least partially, with blood and drug money? Assuming there was, and stepping out of the analogy sortof, that would be really dumb for me to leave a house (and not keep the money from the sale?) and start paying rent, from a practical standpoint... my financial condition is admittedly due to some dumb mistakes in the past, but its not good now, I lost my job a little while ago.
That person could be considered an accomplice because they, being present at the time and also at the place, had the ability to stop it or report it to authorities to be stopped. I am only present at the same place, not the same time. I can't stop what happened to the indians nor can I possibly stop past imperialist actions by my government. I guess it comes full circle here with you saying I benefit from it, but
*runs away*
On the white skin thing, I really hate to do it because it's a dick move and I feel resentful when others pull this card on me, but the fact remains that you don't know what you're missing out on until it's not there. You are blind to the many advantages you have due to your skin color because you've never lived with the absence of it! Live in the shoes of a black man in American society for 20 years and I guarantee you would be singing a different tune about what benefits your skin color can bring you. The funny thing is most of the white people who complain about oppression of the Uighurs are often the same ones who cry about how unfair it is that others talk about white privilege because minorities have all the benefits. In China, the Uighurs have all the extra benefits on paper too. Do you think it really adds up to an actual advantage in practice?
There are alot of older people around here that are racist toward black people (I live in southeast usa...), but the younger generations are much less so. It is hard to say because yeah I'm white, but I think the advantage of being white is becoming more and more marginal.
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On July 10 2009 21:48 lOvOlUNiMEDiA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2009 21:45 BisuBoi wrote:
If you're not one of those kids running in here, preaching from their moral high horses, and condemning a foreign government for how they run their country, then my comment was not directed at you. If my comment was not directed at you, why are you getting offended?
And you seem to have a knack for skewing other's comments. It's plain as day that on one hand, I'm talking about citizens in Western countries having greater privileges in their life afforded to them by the actions of their ancestors. On the other hand, when I talk about "setting themselves up as rulers of it all" I am talking about America as a nation.
Even so, I find it rather facetious for you to claim that you weren't responsible for any of this, blah blah, I shouldn't be held accountable. So, Madoff's son shouldn't get his assets taken away, because it's not his fault his dad did all this heinous stuff, he should still be able to live his life and profit off the spoils right? By the mere fact that you have lived and enjoyed the prosperity of America, you are a beneficiary of the colonial system. Someone who is a beneficiary of the colonial system has less right to speak out against perceived colonial wrongs perpetrated by other countries.
In a nutshell, I'm saying if you're American and want to complain about China holding territory that isn't "traditionally" theirs, you are like the pot calling the kettle black. Yes, I hear white kids whine ALL the time about how it's not their fault, that they don't benefit, they're not the ones calling the shots. But you know what, it's BS. Separate the general population from the gov't? Yes, I would do that in a Communist country.
Those same "freedoms" that Americans are so apt to screech on and on about are the same freedoms that make you responsible for the actions of your government. The citizens of a democracy are the ones who create their government. That is the rhetoric of democracy, no? And their gov'ts aims are wholly to benefit their citizens. How are you going to now claim that the interests of gov't and citizen are divorced and that the citizens of a self-determinant governing system should be exonerated of any responsibility to said gov't? Does this not sound like a load of bull to you? You can't have it both ways, buddy.
Nobody is saying you should pay restitution for slavery, live a life of abject poverty to make up for the pillaging of your ancestors, or give up the Americas and return to England. That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that a lot of these kids who want to condemn OTHERS, should maybe stop being so damn judgmental and realize that what they condemn are the same actions that gave them their life of prosperity that they STILL enjoy to this very day. It's really a simple concept.
It's like complaining about other people selling drugs, when your father is a drug dealer and you drive around in a sports car all day paid for with his drug dealing. It's hypocrisy to the nth degree and anyone who's studied the history knows this.
Now if you DO renounce all claims to possessions and luxuries that were afforded to you by the colonial era, if you go to a society where your white skin does not afford you privileges, if you don't use your background to advantage yourself in some way, I would say that you are morally righteous enough to start criticizing others. And the counterargument is of course, well Chinese people have privileges too etc etc. And yes, they do. And many of those privileges were afforded by imperialist actions as well. The DIFFERENCE here is that you rarely see Chinese kids running around condemning the West for their actions and calling them morally reprehensible on a societal level and preaching about how much better their country does things than the West.
That's the difference. Most of the CHinese on here show humility and admit to mistakes and say so openly. Most of what I've seen in the thread are things like "we KNOW our gov't lies to us. We know shit is bad. We're trying to work on it."
Most (definitely not all. There are some great and well-thought out opinions as well). Western voices here have been "Chinese are disgusting." "Why are they such murderous pigs?" "What they're doing is WRONG!" There is a completely different attitude towards everything. There is an obvious superiority complex and this sentiment that they come from a higher moral standing and have a right to judge and condemn others. That is the difference. Chinese aren't trying to condemn anyone, they're just trying to improve their own lives. Americans somehow feel the need to interject their opinions into every issue and judge others. I'm sure Americans would feel just as offended if a bunch of Chinese people came in after the Don King incident and said shit like OMG USA ARE RACIST PIGS!! Horrible people, Horrible gov't!! And even then the context is not nearly the same because it's not coming in after 200 some years of rape and pillage and atrocities committed by Chinese people.
I bet you are really fun at parties. And so what if I have a superiority complex? What is wrong with hypocrisy? Fuck you you fucking moralist -- I'll be hypocritical if I want to.
This post is absolutely hilarious. I haven't seen such a blatant trolling attempt in quite a while.
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Thanks for the story. IN USA we care about everybody in the world. I am sad over the riots and hope the death toll does not increase any higher that what has happened already.
Thanks for posting
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On July 09 2009 23:29 MK wrote:I ain't saying they don't understand. I'm saying people from the outside understand better, or indeed, could understand better. Actually, from the inside, I ain't even sure it's "understand" but maybe more like "aware". Difficult to think without freedom so hard to understand 
Hmm, I still disagree on this.
At most, I believe it will simply boil down to different understandings of facts.
I feel like the Western world would have one bias upon the issue, while the chinese might have another, so both could understand the situation, but see it in a different light.
The problem is that a lot of times, the Western world doesn't look at it from an Eastern perspective due to being fed information with a large amount of bias in reporting.
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That guy is full of crap. He's spreading lies not "busting propaganda." On one hand he's saying the gov't used real bullets to disperse Uighur mobs, which every major media outlet is saying did NOT happen. On the other hand, he's claiming the Chinese tried to find out who the Uighur rioters were by checking their bodies for bruises.
Why would they check for bruises if they shot them with real bullets? Wouldn't bruises be caused only be rubber bullets? GJ buster. Nice logic.
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I don't like it when people dismiss entire arguments by saying lol you haven't lived here your argument is invalid. It's probably a logical fallacy of some sort. Instead of doing that, can we please address individual points and refute them? If you're so versed in the culture it should be easy.
Somehow these China topics also bring up how evil the west is. It makes no sense; no one is talking about America or Europe. This topic is for discussing China; you guys are deflecting criticism by saying "lol you're worse." It's not like we only criticize China. Since you live in China and may not know this, we bash our governments a lot maybe even more than China.
Also according to Jared Diamond in "Guns Germs and Steel," no colonial power earned a net profit from colonization not even the British Raj in India since it cost the nation way more to garisson their troops there. The may economic growth of the modern era was capitalism and competition not colonialism. That's responsible for all the improvements in life and new technology not stealing resources from other countries.
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I don't like it when people dismiss entire arguments by saying lol you haven't lived here your argument is invalid. It's probably a logical fallacy of some sort. Instead of doing that, can we please address individual points and refute them? If you're so versed in the culture it should be easy.
Somehow these China topics also bring up how evil the west is. It makes no sense; no one is talking about America or Europe. This topic is for discussing China; you guys are deflecting criticism by saying "lol you're worse." It's not like we only criticize China. Since you live in China and may not know this, we bash our governments a lot maybe even more than China.
thanks, finally someone.
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You realize that rubber bullets are infact still lethal? Even more so the fact that the average Chinese person is one of the smaller people in the world which would increase lethality of rubber bullets. I really have no idea what type of rounds they used, but don't start acting like rubber bullets are like getting hit with a balloon at 2 mph. The guy claimed bullets and nothing more. Non-lethal is what they label them, but while still being lethal, they can cause some serious damage. Its hard to get a clear picture of what's going on in regards to that, because you see police/military/whatever they are with shotguns, those could be rubber rounds, but also pictures with pistols and that's gonna use pistol caliber ammunition so no rubber there.
And yes for the record any time I refer to my country, its split up into two parts. I get the feeling that the Chinese posting on this thread tend to associate China as one body with both its people and its government. I look at a country in two parts: its government and its people and I can very reasonably and rationally despise one and love the other.
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Alizee you're trying too hard to win an argument. Go back and watch the video and realize how absurd your argument is. The guy was NOT "claiming bullets anod nothing more."
The guy was making a clear contrast between how he claimed the Chinese security forces were treating the Han and Uighur. He said the Uighur mobs were being shot at with bullets. Then makes a point of saying the Han Chinese though were only shot at with RUBBER bullets. Therefore, your entire spiel about the effects of rubber bullets is totally invalid. My issue was with the blatant bias and outright lies of the youtube video. Nobody here stated that rubber bullets make people happy.
And what kind of realization are you trying to make here? That rubber bullets can injure people? Now you have a problem with riot control techniques? Yes, because in America they don't use rubber bullets. Give me a break.
And for the record, it is not very rational to despise the gov't created by the people but love the people. That's like saying, I hate the Holocaust but I can still love Nazis. The US gov't is created by the people. It's not created by some mysterious entity that lurks in the shadows. The citizens by their actions AND inactions are the ones who create the government. Or are you saying that you live in a country without political freedom?
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Bisuboi:
Actually he said the Hans were shot with tear gas. He said rubber bullets are typically used against riots. I believe by the second statement is it fair to assume he means real bullets were used against the Uighars even though he never directly states it. (Though given the death toll it does seem very plausible... you have to be beating folks REALLY hard to down that many of them.)
Either way, even if we assuming it is rubber bullets and batons for the Uighars and tear gas for the Hans, there is a gap. Denial of the gap just makes you look like someone who ignores the facts due to nationalist pride.
As for America, we haven't had mass rioting in a long while; but the last time there was, rubber bullets were not used. Water cannons and tear gas were. We actually last used Rubber bullets in Iraq.
I don't think many Americans believe we live in a country of 100% political freedom which is why you see such poor voter turn out. Sure, I can vote... but my selection is between corrupt Asshole A who had the funding to run a campaign versus corrupt Asshole B who was also equally rich and out of touch with the common man. Unfortunately, due to the rules of campaigning in the states it is no longer possible for a "people" level person to get elected. So, "by the people", isn't really true. We have to select from rich and out of touch liars and solve which one of them is the least bullshit by election day.
Also, I need to point out to the vast number of nationalist that seem to roam these parts: westerns are not commenting on China's actions from a stance of "we're better" bur rather, "wow, that's dick". We comment on our own problems in the same manner. They are the world's problems.
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The death toll is Han Chinese, NOT Uighurs. The guy is distorting facts. The vast majority of dead are HAN. Jesus christ, how many times do people have to hear/read this before they get the point?
He said "The Uighurs were shot at with bullets. REAL bullets! What did the Han get? Rubber bullets and tear gas!" Don't know what you're talking about but you must be hard of hearing if you didn't hear this.
And in the USA, police are routinely armed with rubber bullets and have no problem using them when a crowd gets rowdy. You're on some FOX news shit if you think the last time rubber bullets was used was in Iraq. Rofl, they were using rubber bullets all through Hurricane Katrina. In fact, US military troops were ordered to fire live rounds at people who were looting the wreckage for food and water!
Don't make it sound like this is some barbaric practice no longer done in the USA. Kids in the US get tasered for asking politicians questions. And you want to get mad because people are shot with rubber bullets after rioting in the streets while armed?? How do you think police in LA would respond if a mob of people beat women and children to death and then were caught marching around on the streets. You think LAPD would be bringing out the water cannons? Get real.
It's not always blatantly stated, but so many posts reek of this kind of cultural superiority and I'm well aware that what I say will come off sounding like angry defensive asian man syndrome, but that's how I feel. When someone is criticizing, and doesn't put any qualifiers in there like (it's not much better in my country), that shows some humility and makes it sound like they're just pointing out something that needs fixing. But those aren't the kinds of posts people leave in China threads. They say dumb shit like "WHat do you expect? It's China." You think posts like that should make Chinese happy? Or they say "Communists. Despicable people." Or they say "Wow, those CHinese. wtf?"
Then you have the real comedy gold like MK saying "I ain't saying they don't understand. I'm saying people from the outside understand better, or indeed, could understand better. Difficult to think without freedom so hard to understand."
Or Velr's: "Alltogether i come to the conclusion:
Chinese culture is a sad excuse for goverment crimes and various other stuff that happens in China."
Or Boblion's: Boblion:
The main difference between "Western" countries and China is that you can find different sources of information ranging from ultra left to ultra right. Censorship is a very marginal problem contrarily to China (and you will find people protesting or even demonstrating against censorship )."
The funniest part of it is that I highly doubt Velr has much knowledge of Chinese culture or history at all, yet wants to make a snarky little comment about how he's sure it's just an excuse for such obviously heinous tyranny and that there could never be an excuse for what the Chinese do. Nor do I think Boblion has ever even opened a Chinese newspaper, or even is literate in Mandarin Chinese. Yet he wants to make a comment about the entire Chinese journalistic world? It's a sad day when someone thinks he knows something and has zero primary sources or experiences to back up his views. Yet wants to come up with theories about China and their censorship. It's strongly implied in his post that Chinese are so ignorant that they can't be trusted to comment on anything, unlike the West. All 3 of these comments are written with a direct comparison between Eastern and Western cultures. So telling me that it isn't about people from the West claiming they're better is just a boldfaced lie.
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Bisu:
Wow... I honestly don't know how to respond, much less know why I will... your points are so distorted and propaganda laced... I mean, really?
The US police are routinely armed with rubber bullets and have no problem using them. Wow, you should write for the America media with such great word twisting. Sure, the US could be armed with rubber bullets and likely have no issue using them; however, compared with your statement, which reads that the firing or rubber bullets on civilians is a common thing, is actually rare.
Rofl, they were using rubber bullets all through Hurricane Katrina. In fact, US military troops were ordered to fire live rounds at people who were looting the wreckage for food and water! I guess this might be in regards to something like this?
"They have M16s and are locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will," Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said. Congressman Bill Jefferson (D-LA) told ABC News: "There was shooting going on. There was sniping going on. Over the first week of September, law and order were gradually restored to the city." What you see here is just bullshit propaganda designed to scare the looter. In terms of live ammo or rubber bullets employed in Katrina; aside from isolated police-level incidents, there is no cases at all.
Don't make it sound like this is some barbaric practice no longer done in the USA. Kids in the US get tasered for asking politicians questions. So one Youtube video of a college graduate getting tazers is not multiple children getting it? Really? I strongly feel police tazer use has gotten stupid lately, but your statement is a blatant fabrication. Yes... American children grow up riding the lightning.
You think LAPD would be bringing out the water cannons? Get real. Last mass ethnic rioting in the states would be the cival rights movement. And yes, water cannons were employeed.
Any reek of cultural superiority you feel is strickly on your end. People observe what happens in China as a human tragedy and don't presume it cannot happen in their own land. For the most part, it already has happened in America; however, that doesn't make it any less wrong now than it did then. We should have evolved as a species from then to now, yet we spiral back into barbaric intolerances.
I'm glad you found two people that support your statement; however, this tread contains much more than two. If you want your statements to hold gravity you need to back your facts up with more than very selective mining. Most people who have posted here and not from a stance of superiority, but rather a stance that a tragedy is a tragedy.
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ROFL. The governor of Louisiana makes an explicit statement that use of extreme force was authorized and YOU twist that and say it's blatant propaganda to scare people? HAHAHA. And then you tell ME that I am the one who's trying to twist shit? ROFL man. Were you in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina? You got first-hand knowledge of what went down? Because I'm quoting from people who were there and said that live rounds were being fired by the police and then by the national guard.
On the tasering, again, direct proof of something and you dismiss it as "just one incident." Yes because I'm sure all around the United States the rest of the kids are never getting tasered. I could bring up many many accounts of people, young, old, men, women, children, all being tasered by police officers. The UF incident is just the most sensational one. But if you're trying to claim that tasering of civilians is an uncommon thing, you should be ashamed of yourself. Honestly. Really ashamed. Police brutality is a known and well documented problem in American society.
Btw, I'm from America. So save your racist crap for someone else. Just because I advocate for the Chinese on certain topics doesn't mean I'm automatically a native-born PRC citizen. But I guess in your narrow world-view, I must be because I advocate for it. Oh and since English isn't your native language, I'd like to let you know that "strickly" is spelled strictly. But it's okay, because I'll be patronizing and tell you that it's not your fault since you must not be a native-born American, so mangling the English language is OK.
Btw your knowledge of US history is fucking abysmal. Last mass ethnic rioting was the "cival" rights movement? Civil rights movement was 1950's - 60's. The last mass ethnic rioting were the 1992 LA race riots. OOPS! You messed up!
Here's a sample of what the race riots were like: At 10 p.m. members of LAPD Metropolitan C and B platoons were involved in a firefight at 114th Street and Central Avenue while protecting Fire Department personnel. Hundreds of rounds were fired and the V-100 rescue vehicle was sent to extract the officers safely. The V-100 rescue vehicle then recovered the two dead bodies from the Nickerson Gardens projects that were killed during the battle.
Stop being willfully ignorant. Especially when you're trying to run around forum threads and educating people like you know better.
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Reference an article on large scale rounds being fired into crowds post-Katrina and stop blabbering bullshit. His was a hallow threat, because again, the number of shots fired according to all accounts, from that point, where limited to isolated cops going over the line who have almost all been fired of tried for their acts since.
So... you're still using the word "kids" for tazer incidents. Is this something the Chinese media tells you about life in the States? I agree with you about police brutality 100% and I do find it sickening, though I find it more sickening that Americans have stopped rising up to defend out rights - but that's another topic. However, I disagree with your spreading false information claiming we have children tazered left and right.
I'm going to just not believe you're from the States given the level of mis-information and out-right lies your propagating. Also, if I was racist... well, let's just bring up the term for fun shall we?
rac·ism
Pronunciation:
\ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
Function:
noun
Date:
1933
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
So, have I said anything that would indicate I believe one race is better than another? I'm very certain I haven't.
Again, you're not making a very strong case for being from the States. Your account of modern events couldn't be more laced with propaganda and your general understanding of American history would indicate you didn't grow up in the states.
Btw your knowledge of US history is fucking abysmal. Last mass ethnic rioting was the "cival" rights movement? Civil rights movement was 1950's - 60's. The last mass ethnic rioting were the 1992 LA race riots. OOPS! You messed up! Again, another clue that leads me to believe you're not really from the states. I mean, if someone says "mass" in this case we usually mean a region and not a single city. Much like what you have going on in China right now.
My goal is not education in the slightest and I've actually posted a handful of times in this thread at most. Don't confuse me with someone else. Honestly, I thought I would stay out of this one entirely, as I really don't have a strong opinion on it one way or the other, but the crap you spew made me want to jump it. Clearly, I got baited.
I'm also going to have to close myself as I did in the Japan thread... you seem to just be a cog in a propaganda machine so there's next to no point in continuing here. It's been interesting... I guess an eye opener as I had falsely assumed the average Chinese person was similar to the average American, i.e. not a mirror or our government. You however, have shown me, at least in your case, mirrors certainly exist.
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On July 12 2009 15:58 sk` wrote:Reference an article on large scale rounds being fired into crowds post-Katrina and stop blabbering bullshit. His was a hallow threat, because again, the number of shots fired according to all accounts, from that point, where limited to isolated cops going over the line who have almost all been fired of tried for their acts since. So... you're still using the word "kids" for tazer incidents. Is this something the Chinese media tells you about life in the States? I agree with you about police brutality 100% and I do find it sickening, though I find it more sickening that Americans have stopped rising up to defend out rights - but that's another topic. However, I disagree with your spreading false information claiming we have children tazered left and right. I'm going to just not believe you're from the States given the level of mis-information and out-right lies your propagating. Also, if I was racist... well, let's just bring up the term for fun shall we? rac·ism
Pronunciation:
\ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
Function:
noun
Date:
1933
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discriminationSo, have I said anything that would indicate I believe one race is better than another? I'm very certain I haven't. Again, you're not making a very strong case for being from the States. Your account of modern events couldn't be more laced with propaganda and your general understanding of American history would indicate you didn't grow up in the states. Show nested quote +Btw your knowledge of US history is fucking abysmal. Last mass ethnic rioting was the "cival" rights movement? Civil rights movement was 1950's - 60's. The last mass ethnic rioting were the 1992 LA race riots. OOPS! You messed up! Again, another clue that leads me to believe you're not really from the states. I mean, if someone says "mass" in this case we usually mean a region and not a single city. Much like what you have going on in China right now. My goal is not education in the slightest and I've actually posted a handful of times in this thread at most. Don't confuse me with someone else. Honestly, I thought I would stay out of this one entirely, as I really don't have a strong opinion on it one way or the other, but the crap you spew made me want to jump it. Clearly, I got baited. I'm also going to have to close myself as I did in the Japan thread... you seem to just be a cog in a propaganda machine so there's next to no point in continuing here. It's been interesting... I guess an eye opener as I had falsely assumed the average Chinese person was similar to the average American, i.e. not a mirror or our government. You however, have shown me, at least in your case, mirrors certainly exist.
Lol are you for real? How are you going to tell the guy where he's from? And what kind of reading rainbow insult is "you mirror your government"?
The point is that guy's statement was that the police killed 150 Uighurs with bullets even though all the reports western and non western as well as can be seen in the pictures say 180~ Han Chinese dead. He's complete BS. That's what this argument was originally about so.... can we get back onto that instead of personal attacks?
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n00b:
7 pages in, have you been able to get back to the topic? No. There's a reason for that.
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What's your point dude? We should just forget the topic and start attacking each other personally?
There are race riots all the time int eh US. There was one in Oakland January of this year. I guess it's not big enough to qualify as a "mass" riot (I know I have to be careful using that word because it might be used as a clue that I'm not from the US dun dun duuuuuun....) but this crap happens here all the time. Maybe YOUR lack of recent events proves that YOU'RE some cog in a propaganda machine.
Oh wait, or you could just be some dude on the internet with only a piece of knowledge like everyone else.
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n00b:
High five on missing the point... I'm late to the thread so pardon me, but it seems you can't get back to the point you want to talk about because Bisu and other nationalist seek to derail it.
But... to everything else you're going on about, glad you ACTUALLY read everything related to what's going on and totally didn't just jump in mid way.
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Actually SK, this thread was relatively fine until people like you and Alizee jumped in. Lovely attempt to shift the blame though but the proof is there within the previous few pages where there was an actual conversation taking place regarding opposing sides of the view without the need to point fingers but yeah I guess it's ok because you were late on the thread and as a result is somehow privileged to post about random junk without the need to have any relevance to things right? PS. Also, I love your selective quoting style. Really excellent debating skills.
Seriously, you should take your own advice and get the hell out of this thread as I was actually enjoying reading the discussion between zaost, maleorder, Bisuboi and the like. To a lesser extent even Bobolion had shown some clarity to his views in his posts. People like you make me sick on the internet since your essential goal seems to somehow give yourself a pat on the back by attempting to take a moral high ground regardless of weight or relevance. In fact, I'm going to stop tangenting further since it's apparent responses like mine are your goal in further derailing the thread and for the civil discourse here, I apologize to those for doing so.
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EPT
