On July 09 2009 02:59 Diomedes wrote: No one can deny that the attitude Koreans and Chinese have to their past with Japan is vastly different to the attitude Japanese have to Koreans, Chinese or Americans.
Japan is a conservative country with quite some xenophobia. The US never apologized for the fire bombing of Tokyo or the atomic bombs yet this doesn't result in young Japanese longing for revenge and hating young Americans. This is the case in Korea and China. We have even seen examples on this board. And yes, the Japanese government has seen no reason to try to diffuse the situation.
Japan is not a western country. It's not a functional democracy. People are not equal to the law, etc etc. Of course China is one of the most repressive regimes on the planet. Yes, it's a result of the difficulties of trying to keep their country united. But it's true nonetheless.
Also, the relationships between Asian countries is very very different from those in Europe. Europe is the continent with the most and the most bloody wars. Yet they seem to make peace as easily as they make wars. In east-asia almost no country has very warm relationships with any other. It's China vs Taiwan, N Korea vs S Korea. S Korea vs China. China vs Japan, S Korea vs Japan, N Korea vs Japan, Russia vs Japan. They could have more economic cooperation/integration. They could have a monetary union. They could cooperate in research and space exploration. But they don't. Every time they do talk they talk as if WWII happened only 10 years ago and they of course have to deal with the problem of N Korea.
Luckily Japan does suffer from the same syndrome as Germany. Germany was the most civilized country in the world. They had the top philosophers, the best composers, a rich literary culture with many big names. Yet they elected Hitler into power and followed him into war just after WWI and did nothing to stop the genocide. It seems that losing a war does teach a country and a people a lesson. Try to imagine a Japan without it.
Also, both S Korea and Japan are under the sphere of influence of the US big time. They both depend on the US. And that comes at a price. Politicians in both countries know this. Even in Europe where countries are independent politicians still bow to the power of the US. It's even harder not to do so in Japan or S Korea. So that's what happens. And of course this even more a problem for a united east asia.
ParasitJonte: I am not versed in the law on this matter here, but by my understanding, if you were born here you could apply for citizenship even if your parents are not Japanese. However, Japan does not allow dual citizenship, so if your mother is Japanese and your father Chinese, you must select one or the other by 20.
In terms of foreigners, we can never become citizens, but there's Permanent Resident Status that we can attain after a number of years. Usually it is granted to foreigners who have children with a national. Japanese don't seem to want to get to the business of having kids, so they are trying a little to be 1% nicer to foreigners. Still, we get shit on big time.
In terms of how friendly people are... it all comes down to the person. Some people are xenophobes, some aren't. It is the same in every country.
v1rtu0so : are you trolling ? because your NO-argumentation starts to piss me off.
And yes, in Japan, you can NEVER be Japanese if you are foreigner. This leads to good point : Japan is very homogeneous so not many ethnic problems like recently in China for example. But, Japan is also getting older and older (no immigration and the birth rate is low) : how to deal then ? Especially for a country like Japan where almost everything is so customers-oriented and need massive working force (many "useless jobs" -this is only my opinion so don't hate me if you actually do that- like the street-crossing guard, the women in museum, the vending machine guard, the elevator-girls etc...).
BUT, please, don't say Japan is racist or Xenophobe because I really don't think it is true. Once again, Japan, especially Tokyo, where I live, is one of the most welcoming place in the world.
And yes, there are shit people and trolls everywhere but definitely, the global trend here is : nice.
So, hope everyone can come and discover this country before hating it.
That was the first time I have provided so called "no-argumentation" and rightly so, in my opinion, because he did just pile bunch of rubbish. Let's not get personal here.
On July 08 2009 12:36 v1rtu0so wrote: MK and ecael: I never claimed that every japanese is anti-korea, just that there is a good-size sector of the japanese populace that seems anti-korea. For your info., 2ch probably does represents the worse side of japan, but it is way more mainstream than 4chan ever will be. I don't think 2ch/2c can be ignored so easily, given that they are the biggest sites in japan.
So you are suggesting that 2ch is mainstream enough to be a considerable factor, then? But even that is inherently flawed a way to look at the matter. Let's take posting habits on 2ch, the amount of trolling, self-responding via different account and bandwagoning is incredible. The traffic that it generates is hardly a good enough indicator anymore of powerful the sentiment is. The best way you can look at it is through its manifestation on the public sphere, not to point at an environment where people are protected by anonymity to fill their ego as much as they want. The 4chan comparison is still accurate, 2ch has generated buzz, but it simply doesn't wield real power.
Mani I'll record questions in my halfassed Japanese and you can just chill with an ipod and a mic! Can't afford to keep up with your alcohol tab though :p
I would argue that under the veil of anonymity, people are more free to express their true feelings. Just consider the things you might do when no one is around. Of course, there will be some trolling, especially in boards like this, but you can't say everyone on that site is trolling -- trolls aren't really trolling if they try to troll other trolls...basically there still needs to be a non-trolling majority who are there to be trolled by the trolls Bandwagoning? I will certainly give you that -- but doesn't that still reflect the attitude of many people, albeit exaggerated?
FYI, threads about korea in these sites go mostly like this: 1) Some news article about korea 2-20) some cynical negative comments about korea 21) a neutral comment about korea 22) (referring to 21)) what are you, a gook? 23) (referring to 21) get out, gook 24-30) more cynical negative comments about korea
I would argue that if there were a troll in this thread, it would be 21) and not anyone else.
Bringing up the fact that there are always going to be some sour grapes in a country, while true, is not relevant to the discussion. Of course, there are Japanese people who are not xenophobic, pro-korea, friendly etc. The point is to highlight certain sectors in society that -- for the lack of better term -- "have problems."
I have never generalized the japanese as the average 2ch/2c netizen; that is utterly foolish. But, I cant help but think that such hateful group of people do exist -- and in some numbers it seems -- in japan.
Virt: You can't enter 2ch or 4ch as reference because those places attract the scum of society. Of course you're going to get nothing but racists and other low-lifes.
But, I cant help but think that such hateful group of people do exist -- and in some numbers it seems -- in japan.
You mean... people are humans? Yes, this is an amazing epiphany, nasty people exist everywhere. Glad you've had it. And?
Most of us that have long had that epiphany don't let trolls (of the IRL variety) pee in our punch.
Today I am going to teach a lesson with a group of adults, and one of the topics will be images of a country vs the image of a country. Maybe I can collect some rudimentary data for you guys.
v1rtu0so, just saying that there are scums in every country and of every ethnicity doesn't quite tell us much. In your example, we have no way of proving that responses 2~30 aren't simply 1 posting again, the kind of staged trolling particularly common with 2ch simply due to the way it is. Your point up to now was to say that the kind of behavior you see on 2ch makes you believe there is a problem. Then now suggests that the problem can be particularly visible with a certain group of people. Now where are we at? If we were to concentrate on 'that' as an issue, then we can no longer point at Japan. Instead, we are going to find selective groups everywhere that qualifies for the kind of action that disturb you. But you said yourself, bringing up the fact that there are always going to be a subset of people who are the troublemakers, that this is irrelevant to the discussion. So...what is your point really? Do you want to suggest that something about those groups in Japan allows us to isolate the country specifically and point fingers at it? If so, you haven't really brought up such an unique quality yet far as I can see.
About anonymity, it allows people to express their true feelings, ones they would not express otherwise. How likely are people going to have the ability to act on those feelings then?
It reminds me that another crazy Kr said that journey to the west was Korean ahah
ahah these guys can't be serious.
PS : reminds me that my Japanese Teacher told me Japanese was the most difficult language in the world... and my Chinese Teacher said that Chinese was the most difficult... and, oh yeah, my French teacher told me French was the most accurate language in the world and the grammar was for sure the most logical.... ahah
Japanese is easy to translate? This guy is obviously overflowing with talent, I'd like some too please, since I certainly don't find it easy to translate -.-
Besides, he keeps blabbering about the nobel prize firstly as if it only involves the prize in literature. And, with that assumption, seems to imply that things somehow need to be translated into English to be eligible for a prize. If anything, it needs to be translated into Swedish.
I don't know korean but it's just plain stupid to claim that complexity is a necessity for expressivness. Clearly this guy is a troll; and a bad one at that.
On July 09 2009 02:59 Diomedes wrote: No one can deny that the attitude Koreans and Chinese have to their past with Japan is vastly different to the attitude Japanese have to Koreans, Chinese or Americans.
Japan is a conservative country with quite some xenophobia. The US never apologized for the fire bombing of Tokyo or the atomic bombs yet this doesn't result in young Japanese longing for revenge and hating young Americans. This is the case in Korea and China. We have even seen examples on this board. And yes, the Japanese government has seen no reason to try to diffuse the situation.
Japan is not a western country. It's not a functional democracy. People are not equal to the law, etc etc. Of course China is one of the most repressive regimes on the planet. Yes, it's a result of the difficulties of trying to keep their country united. But it's true nonetheless.
Also, the relationships between Asian countries is very very different from those in Europe. Europe is the continent with the most and the most bloody wars. Yet they seem to make peace as easily as they make wars. In east-asia almost no country has very warm relationships with any other. It's China vs Taiwan, N Korea vs S Korea. S Korea vs China. China vs Japan, S Korea vs Japan, N Korea vs Japan, Russia vs Japan. They could have more economic cooperation/integration. They could have a monetary union. They could cooperate in research and space exploration. But they don't. Every time they do talk they talk as if WWII happened only 10 years ago and they of course have to deal with the problem of N Korea.
Luckily Japan does suffer from the same syndrome as Germany. Germany was the most civilized country in the world. They had the top philosophers, the best composers, a rich literary culture with many big names. Yet they elected Hitler into power and followed him into war just after WWI and did nothing to stop the genocide. It seems that losing a war does teach a country and a people a lesson. Try to imagine a Japan without it.
Also, both S Korea and Japan are under the sphere of influence of the US big time. They both depend on the US. And that comes at a price. Politicians in both countries know this. Even in Europe where countries are independent politicians still bow to the power of the US. It's even harder not to do so in Japan or S Korea. So that's what happens. And of course this even more a problem for a united east asia.
The reason why this is a bunch of rubbish is because during the Cold War, the Chinese government did ignore the atrocities committed by Japan during WWII do strengthen economic ties to Japan (don't know much about Korea-Japan relations). Japan's refusal to acknowledge it's war crimes in WWII is akin to Germany refusing to acknowledge the Holocaust, which would surely spur outrage. Germany had paid $120 billion in reparations to the allies and Israel by the year 2000, while Japan hasn't made any reparations whatsoever.
The outrage directed at the Japanese government by Chinese, Koreans, and other Asians whose countries were devastated by Japan during WWII is understandable. To hate Japanese as a people would obviously be wrong, but I've yet to meet a young Korean or Chinese person who actually hates Japanese people. While surely many Chinese and Koreans bash Japan, the vast majority don't hate the Japanese as a people. There will always be people in any culture who can't put history behind them, like the small (I'm assuming) minority of Jews who like to complain and whine about the Holocaust as if Germany never apologized for it on behalf of the Nazis. The difference with Japan's raping of the rest of eastern Asia is that Japan pretty much got off scot free with genocide.
They went to Myeongdong which is basically a very Japanese friendly area in Seoul - most of the Japanese tourists visit there because it is one of the best shopping districts in the city and a lot of the young women promoting outside the stores for places like Skin Food/The Face Shop and Etude House (all beauty product shops.) speak Japanese as well as Korean. A lot of signs are also translated into Japanese and there are places to exchange Yen etc.
I think if they'd done this in certain other parts of Seoul or outside of the city then they would have met with a very different reaction. The majority of older people (especially war veterans.) have negative sentiments towards Japan and Japanese citizens. It is the younger generation which seems less inclined to follow the feelings of their older relatives (perhaps because they are much less connected to the times in question such as the 1910 annexation and the assimilation of Korea into Japanese culture through name changing initiatives in such a literal manner.)
It is pretty weird to think that two people would feel strongly enough to waste so much money flying over here just to troll Koreans, but who knows what motivates individuals.
EPT
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