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On May 26 2009 08:28 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 08:16 Zozma wrote:
I don't really get it. I guess you can say that, but it's not like Hitler got out of bed and said "alright time to do some evil". I mean, everyone thinks they're right, but that doesn't make it right. Exactly my point. Every country that tortures does it for a reason (national security, they are evil so its ok to torture them, if we dont torture them something bad will happen). The whole reason you have international "Dont Torture" laws is because torture does so often seem like the right and nessisary course of action. But its not. Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 08:16 Zozma wrote:
First: Assume that a runaway mine cart is about to go down a lane with 4 workers in it, and they will all die. If you could switch the cart to a different lane with only one person in it, would you do that?
Second: Same situation, but you are at the side of the track. If you jump in and try to stop the cart, it won't work, but you can push someone in to stop it at the cost of their life. Would you do that?
Basically, if you answer "no" in the second case, your argument about necessary evils doesn't hold up. Er, if that's the argument you're trying to make.
If I came from a country with founding principles that said "Don't every kill people with a cart" then no I wouldn't actively take another persons life. Thats why I said hanabal lector aside. I didn't understand what you were saying. If I've got this right, you're actually saying that just because people think torture is necessary, that's no excuse, and that we shouldn't actually torture someone.
What I thought you were saying is that we should torture people if it was necessary.
Okay. Uh, that was a pretty pointless argument. My bad!
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Lol its ok. Its uplifting to meet people willing to argue that torture is wrong no matter how nessisary it may appear.
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Man this stuff is pretty intense, I was actually discussing this with some buddies till I saw this topic. Lotta similar stuff was brought up in our discussion o.O.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
Well, my opinion is war is war. You do what you do.. no rules..
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On May 26 2009 09:38 Clasic wrote:
Well, my opinion is war is war. You do what you do.. no rules..
rules are important in wars, but as were not even fighting a standing army, this isn't really a "war."
do i support torture of insurgents? no. do i understand the people who do it? yes.
when your fighting enemies who dress like civilians, who raise the white flag of surrender only to gun you down -- well, i'd be driven to do some terrible things as well.
it doesn't make it right though.
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On May 26 2009 09:38 Clasic wrote:
Well, my opinion is war is war. You do what you do.. no rules..
All's fair in love, war, and Outback Steakhouse.
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On May 26 2009 08:48 Archerofaiur wrote:
Lol its ok. Its uplifting to meet people willing to argue that torture is wrong no matter how nessisary it may appear.
I'm sure the Spanish inquisition believed torture was nessisary against evil
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On May 26 2009 03:39 Dromar wrote:The site seems to sell a bunch of pro-war/anti-liberal shirts, but then they have this one: Do people actually agree with this? "We should take what's not ours, kill those who oppose us, and then force everyone to believe what we believe." I hate you Ann Coulter. edit: as for the whole torture discussion, I read every post in here, and I'm not getting involved. My personal opinion is that waterboarding is torture and we shouldn't do it. But trying to convince someone that they're wrong on an internet message board is harder than ZvZ against Jaedong.
I know she gets a lot of flak from liberals, but I used to dismiss it as political bickering. Reading that quote...
She's a zealot. And not the nice kind with psi shields and a speed upgrade.
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here is why torture doesnt work.
i start ripping your fingernails out.
you dont tell me the truth, you only tell me what you think will make me stop ripping out your fingernails. give me some rusty plyers and 10 mintutes i could have you telling me you were mickey mouse sent by hulk hogan to fight the ninja turtles.
also- it makes you the bad guys. but that is just an opinion of course.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
It is quite obvious for anyone that the information extracted under torture is extremely unreliable, so no one would use it for this purpose. There are other purposes though, to make someone say something beneficial to your propaganda, to enhance your image with your own people by "doing whatever is necessary to protect them", to make your enemies fear, or just to receive sadistic pleasure, which is I guess not the least of the reasons torture is still used today.
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On May 25 2009 18:14 baal wrote:
headbanga would you be kind enough to elaborate if rape counts as an enhanced interrogation technique or is it immoral and shouldnt be done?
Please also state why and how its different from waterboarding since none of them cause any physical damage, just psychological.
would somebody pro-torture answer this please?
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On May 26 2009 16:02 zizou21 wrote:im buying this shirt
Hopefully only because it's hilariously retarded.
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Most credible republicans only laugh at Ann Coulter. But there aren't that many credible republicans anymore so >.<
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On May 24 2009 23:30 Physician wrote:
- anyone one that swallows euphemisms like "enhanced interrogation techniques" & "water boarding" and still does not understand what torture is or is not, is plainly speaking:
retarded, i.e. as in low I.Q. etc.. (which can not be corrected).
- anyone that understands that it is torture but still advocates torture under "special" circumstances as justified simply reveal their ignorance on the issue (i.e. about the effectiveness and counter productive consequences of torture) and their backward values; they seem to be oblivious to the legal, ramifications, both at home and international; they seem to be oblivious to the detrimental consequences the use and legalization of torture.
- they will deny it adamantly but the sad part is that some of the torture "advocates" in this thread, a few years ago would probably have had the opposite opinion but now spew out what they are fed by their leaders and what the "TV" tells them to think: it is "not torture", it was just "enhanced interrogation techniques" & "water boarding" In other words they have weak minds, as in easily fooled, poor convictions etc.. I find it ironic to see many "religious" or "moral" people or self proclaimed "American constitutionalists" supporting torture; they only reveal their absolute ignorance about their own beliefs and how easy it is to manipulate them..
- on a personal level anyone that advocates torture and understand what it is, is a douche i.e. a person I rather keep away from because they will probably be sort that would be doing the torturing if they ever got the chance.
- simply speaking, if you support torture under any circumstance, your either a douche, ignorant or an imbecile. Take your pick.
You put everything in categories with every category having its own outcome. You could make a nice flowchart of it for people to follow and see if they are a douche or not.
Unfortunately I don’t think life is that simple.
There is a whole spectrum of situations between two extremes to consider.
On one side of the spectrum we have a cute innocent little girl eating a lollypop, who people in their right mind obviously wouldn’t torture.
On the other extreme end of the spectrum we have this highly unlikely and terrible scenario: Some terrorists have kidnapped your family and loved ones and threaten to kill them in a horrible way this time tomorrow. You managed to capture one of these terrorists and there is 100% certainty that he’s involved. Would you have this man tortured to give up the location of your family?
I personally would understand why someone answers “yes” to this last question and wouldn’t call them “a douche, ignorant or an imbecile”.
I think it’s best for the society for torture to be illegal, but that doesn’t make me pro or against torture. Personally I believe the majority of people can think of a worst case scenario in their minds were they think it would be acceptable to torture. It all depends on the situation in the spectrum.
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On May 26 2009 17:03 Thats_The_Spirit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2009 23:30 Physician wrote:
- anyone one that swallows euphemisms like "enhanced interrogation techniques" & "water boarding" and still does not understand what torture is or is not, is plainly speaking:
retarded, i.e. as in low I.Q. etc.. (which can not be corrected).
- anyone that understands that it is torture but still advocates torture under "special" circumstances as justified simply reveal their ignorance on the issue (i.e. about the effectiveness and counter productive consequences of torture) and their backward values; they seem to be oblivious to the legal, ramifications, both at home and international; they seem to be oblivious to the detrimental consequences the use and legalization of torture.
- they will deny it adamantly but the sad part is that some of the torture "advocates" in this thread, a few years ago would probably have had the opposite opinion but now spew out what they are fed by their leaders and what the "TV" tells them to think: it is "not torture", it was just "enhanced interrogation techniques" & "water boarding" In other words they have weak minds, as in easily fooled, poor convictions etc.. I find it ironic to see many "religious" or "moral" people or self proclaimed "American constitutionalists" supporting torture; they only reveal their absolute ignorance about their own beliefs and how easy it is to manipulate them..
- on a personal level anyone that advocates torture and understand what it is, is a douche i.e. a person I rather keep away from because they will probably be sort that would be doing the torturing if they ever got the chance.
- simply speaking, if you support torture under any circumstance, your either a douche, ignorant or an imbecile. Take your pick. You put everything in categories with every category having its own outcome. You could make a nice flowchart of it for people to follow and see if they are a douche or not. Unfortunately I don’t think life is that simple. There is a whole spectrum of situations between two extremes to consider. On one side of the spectrum we have a cute innocent little girl eating a lollypop, who people in their right mind obviously wouldn’t torture. On the other extreme end of the spectrum we have this highly unlikely and terrible scenario: Some terrorists have kidnapped your family and loved ones and threaten to kill them in a horrible way this time tomorrow. You managed to capture one of these terrorists and there is 100% certainty that he’s involved. Would you have this man tortured to give up the location of your family? I personally would understand why someone answers “yes” to this last question and wouldn’t call them “a douche, ignorant or an imbecile”. I think it’s best for the society for torture to be illegal, but that doesn’t make me pro or against torture. Personally I believe the majority of people can think of a worst case scenario in their minds were they think it would be acceptable to torture. It all depends on the situation in the spectrum.
You're assuming torturing the guy will give you the information. EVERY piece of information entered into this thread has consistently shown that interrogation techniques which aren't flat out torture obtained higher quality information, even those pieces of information entered by the pro-torture side.
No one disputes that if there was a net benefit to torture that it would be moral to perform it, but we simply don't have the evidence showing that.
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On May 26 2009 20:46 L wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 17:03 Thats_The_Spirit wrote:On May 24 2009 23:30 Physician wrote:
- anyone one that swallows euphemisms like "enhanced interrogation techniques" & "water boarding" and still does not understand what torture is or is not, is plainly speaking:
retarded, i.e. as in low I.Q. etc.. (which can not be corrected).
- anyone that understands that it is torture but still advocates torture under "special" circumstances as justified simply reveal their ignorance on the issue (i.e. about the effectiveness and counter productive consequences of torture) and their backward values; they seem to be oblivious to the legal, ramifications, both at home and international; they seem to be oblivious to the detrimental consequences the use and legalization of torture.
- they will deny it adamantly but the sad part is that some of the torture "advocates" in this thread, a few years ago would probably have had the opposite opinion but now spew out what they are fed by their leaders and what the "TV" tells them to think: it is "not torture", it was just "enhanced interrogation techniques" & "water boarding" In other words they have weak minds, as in easily fooled, poor convictions etc.. I find it ironic to see many "religious" or "moral" people or self proclaimed "American constitutionalists" supporting torture; they only reveal their absolute ignorance about their own beliefs and how easy it is to manipulate them..
- on a personal level anyone that advocates torture and understand what it is, is a douche i.e. a person I rather keep away from because they will probably be sort that would be doing the torturing if they ever got the chance.
- simply speaking, if you support torture under any circumstance, your either a douche, ignorant or an imbecile. Take your pick. You put everything in categories with every category having its own outcome. You could make a nice flowchart of it for people to follow and see if they are a douche or not. Unfortunately I don’t think life is that simple. There is a whole spectrum of situations between two extremes to consider. On one side of the spectrum we have a cute innocent little girl eating a lollypop, who people in their right mind obviously wouldn’t torture. On the other extreme end of the spectrum we have this highly unlikely and terrible scenario: Some terrorists have kidnapped your family and loved ones and threaten to kill them in a horrible way this time tomorrow. You managed to capture one of these terrorists and there is 100% certainty that he’s involved. Would you have this man tortured to give up the location of your family? I personally would understand why someone answers “yes” to this last question and wouldn’t call them “a douche, ignorant or an imbecile”. I think it’s best for the society for torture to be illegal, but that doesn’t make me pro or against torture. Personally I believe the majority of people can think of a worst case scenario in their minds were they think it would be acceptable to torture. It all depends on the situation in the spectrum. You're assuming torturing the guy will give you the information. EVERY piece of information entered into this thread has consistently shown that interrogation techniques which aren't flat out torture obtained higher quality information
lol wat
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United States12261 Posts
On May 26 2009 16:36 SingletonWilliam wrote:
Most credible republicans only laugh at Ann Coulter. But there aren't that many credible republicans anymore so >.<
I like Ann Coulter because she exists solely to antagonize the left, and it's the same with Michael Savage. Sometimes, though, it's difficult to identify the line they've drawn between satire and genuine insanity. Even in those cases they're pretty funny because you're thinking "oh you guys :3" You really have to take what those two say with several grains of salt.
Of course, there is a difference between those who appreciate the outlandish attitude of Ann Coulter and those who are in lock-step with some of the more extremist points of view she presents. I don't believe many liberals are capable of distinguishing the two.
EDIT: CIP: Yesterday I was driving back up from Big Basin and was listening to an encore broadcast of Savage on the radio, and he was convinced that the Swine Flu was a terrorist attack perpetrated by groups who knew the Obama DHS wouldn't close the borders because they're too afraid of offending Mexico. Nobody could seriously be thinking that that is rational, and if they do, they're probably a nut.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/square-large-coulter.jpg)
