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On May 25 2009 19:45 BlackJack wrote:
Clearly he confused you with somebody else so you don't have to act like a douche
He didn't bother to check his sources at all (which is clearly illustrated by the fact that he posted two links which both reference claims made by the same CIA agent). I mocked him for it. He then cried foul and didn't check the author of the post when making a reply. In his reply, he doesn't once make any actual argument or present any real evidence, he merely proclaims that it can be found easily through Google and that the issue is unresolved (even after it's obvious that the CIA agent is talking out of his arse), essentially just trying to be evasive. So I mocked him again.
Otherwise, it should be noted that HeadBangaa has said through the rest of this thread that the US shouldn't intervene so much in global affairs. This isn't so relevant to the topic of the thread, and I mostly agree with in conclusion (though not necessarily with parts of his reasoning) so I haven't made any actual response to it.
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how in the hell is it NOT torture!?
you can't survive that, it's IMPOSSIBLE
it's not like they can if they have mind over matter.
you're lungs are gonna fill up with water regardless..
so what the fuck is up with this not being "torture" and just invoking a fear?
can a human survive water being poured down his nose and into his lungs?
i admire the technique of course, but that's just ridiculous that it's so blown up..
it's like putting fire to someone when the volunteer says "yeah, i'm a fireman and
I've been around a while and through house fires, I'm used to it"
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Remember when slavery was nessesary to protect our way of life. How if we didn't have slaves it would destroy our economy and claim countless lives.
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On May 26 2009 03:12 Archerofaiur wrote:
Remember when slavery was nessesary for the US economy.
It still is with illegal immigration...
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The site seems to sell a bunch of pro-war/anti-liberal shirts, but then they have this one:
Do people actually agree with this? "We should take what's not ours, kill those who oppose us, and then force everyone to believe what we believe."
I hate you Ann Coulter.
edit: as for the whole torture discussion, I read every post in here, and I'm not getting involved. My personal opinion is that waterboarding is torture and we shouldn't do it. But trying to convince someone that they're wrong on an internet message board is harder than ZvZ against Jaedong.
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I don't get it...
If he is pouring water on a towel that is on you, then technically it's it seriously sufficating you?
Isn't it that just plain like... hurting you? Kno what I mean? O__O
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It's instantaneous controlled drowning.
Sooo when's Hannity getting waterboarded. (Waterboarded correctly). Every time we see someone survive past 5 seconds of waterboarding it is being done incorrectly without the proper positioning of the body / legs / head etc.
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On May 23 2009 07:14 Kwark wrote:
Always good to see someone have the balls to test on themselves in order to validate what they believe to be true. Respect.
Very much indeed.
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On May 26 2009 03:12 Archerofaiur wrote:
Remember when slavery was nessesary to protect our way of life. How if we didn't have slaves it would destroy our economy and claim countless lives. Whoa... are you trolling, or are you just an asshole?
Hope it's the first one, but really. Don't even make jokes about slavery... one of the absolute worst things that the USA has ever done, even though the list is long.
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I think you're taking what he's saying in the wrong way. I think he's saying more "remember when we were told this evil was so vital"
unless im missing something in my very lazy skimming.
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On May 26 2009 07:17 Zozma wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 03:12 Archerofaiur wrote:
Remember when slavery was nessesary to protect our way of life. How if we didn't have slaves it would destroy our economy and claim countless lives. Whoa... are you trolling, or are you just an asshole? Hope it's the first one, but really. Don't even make jokes about slavery... one of the absolute worst things that the USA has ever done, even though the list is long.
While his post was a bit of a hyperbole, he is somewhat correct. Slavery is a terrible thing that shouldn't have ever happened, but the USA wouldn't have happened without it. Every country's has a stain on their record that helped them achieve what they are today.
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No your right chobo (embrace you read it the completly wrong way). One of the main arguements for slavery was that it was critical for our country's future. It was nessisary and America would be destroyed if slavery was abolished.
Now dont get me wrong 9/11 was absolutly terrible and I would hope it would never happen again. But you dont sacrifice what makes you human if 100 people die or 1000 or a million. All in all the death toll for ridding the country of slavery was 200000 Americans. Our ancestors were willing to make that kind of sacrifice for the beliefs this country was founded. And we are willing to throw them away at the threat that more people may die.
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On May 26 2009 07:28 Archerofaiur wrote: All in all the death toll for ridding the country of slavery was 200000 Americans.
Assuming you're talking about the Civil War, the death toll was somewhere between 600,000 and 700,000.
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On May 26 2009 07:28 Archerofaiur wrote:
No your right chobo (embrace you read it the completly wrong way). One of the main arguements for slavery was that it was critical for our country's future. It was nessisary and America would be destroyed if slavery was abolished. All in all the death toll for ridding the country of slavery was 200000 Americans. Our ancestors were willing to make that kind of sacrifice for the beliefs this country was founded. And we are willing to throw them away at the threat that more people may die.
Now dont get me wrong 9/11 was absolutly terrible and I would hope it would never happen again. But you dont sacrifice what makes you human if 100 people die or 1000 or a million. America was willing to lose 200,000 to end slavery. And because of it our children have a better future.
I think you read me wrong as well. I said what he wrote was an exaggeration. This country would not crumble if slavery hadn't been instantiated, but it definitely made it a lot easier and arguably the reason why the U.S. shot up so fast compared to the rest of the world.
However, slavery is clearly a terrible thing, and our ancestors decided to abolish it. We are all glad that they did.
I hope you don't think I'm glad we had slavery, that's not what I'm saying. It's merely a fact that when over half your country's population is free labor -- that's quite a boost to your production.
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On May 26 2009 07:37 eMbrace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 07:28 Archerofaiur wrote:
No your right chobo (embrace you read it the completly wrong way). One of the main arguements for slavery was that it was critical for our country's future. It was nessisary and America would be destroyed if slavery was abolished. All in all the death toll for ridding the country of slavery was 200000 Americans. Our ancestors were willing to make that kind of sacrifice for the beliefs this country was founded. And we are willing to throw them away at the threat that more people may die.
Now dont get me wrong 9/11 was absolutly terrible and I would hope it would never happen again. But you dont sacrifice what makes you human if 100 people die or 1000 or a million. America was willing to lose 200,000 to end slavery. And because of it our children have a better future. I think you read me wrong as well. I said what he wrote was an exaggeration. This country would not crumble if slavery hadn't been instantiated, but it definitely made it a lot easier and arguably the reason why the U.S. shot up so fast compared to the rest of the world. However, slavery is clearly a terrible thing, and our ancestors decided to abolish it. We are all glad that they did. I hope you don't think I'm glad we had slavery, that's not what I'm saying. It's merely a fact that when over half your country's population is free labor -- that's quite a boost to your production.
Oh ok I see what your saying. And just because something appears nessisary doesnt mean you can do it. Thats what I really dont get. When has one human being tortured another and not felt it was absolutly nessesary? (Hanabal Lector aside)
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On May 26 2009 07:23 eMbrace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 07:17 Zozma wrote:On May 26 2009 03:12 Archerofaiur wrote:
Remember when slavery was nessesary to protect our way of life. How if we didn't have slaves it would destroy our economy and claim countless lives. Whoa... are you trolling, or are you just an asshole? Hope it's the first one, but really. Don't even make jokes about slavery... one of the absolute worst things that the USA has ever done, even though the list is long. While his post was a bit of a hyperbole, he is somewhat correct. Slavery is a terrible thing that shouldn't have ever happened, but the USA wouldn't have happened without it. Every country's has a stain on their record that helped them achieve what they are today.
and without the holocaust, (which artosis survived, HEH), modern medicine would be seriously backwards than it is now.
I quess everything bad has something good in it ;_;
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On May 26 2009 07:46 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 07:37 eMbrace wrote:On May 26 2009 07:28 Archerofaiur wrote:
No your right chobo (embrace you read it the completly wrong way). One of the main arguements for slavery was that it was critical for our country's future. It was nessisary and America would be destroyed if slavery was abolished. All in all the death toll for ridding the country of slavery was 200000 Americans. Our ancestors were willing to make that kind of sacrifice for the beliefs this country was founded. And we are willing to throw them away at the threat that more people may die.
Now dont get me wrong 9/11 was absolutly terrible and I would hope it would never happen again. But you dont sacrifice what makes you human if 100 people die or 1000 or a million. America was willing to lose 200,000 to end slavery. And because of it our children have a better future. I think you read me wrong as well. I said what he wrote was an exaggeration. This country would not crumble if slavery hadn't been instantiated, but it definitely made it a lot easier and arguably the reason why the U.S. shot up so fast compared to the rest of the world. However, slavery is clearly a terrible thing, and our ancestors decided to abolish it. We are all glad that they did. I hope you don't think I'm glad we had slavery, that's not what I'm saying. It's merely a fact that when over half your country's population is free labor -- that's quite a boost to your production. Oh ok I see what your saying. And just because something appears nessisary doesnt mean you can do it. Thats what I really dont get. When has one human being tortured another and not felt it was absolutly nessesary? (Hanabal Lector aside) I don't really get it. I guess you can say that, but it's not like Hitler got out of bed and said "alright time to do some evil". I mean, everyone thinks they're right, but that doesn't make it right.
By the way, a quick thought experiment.
First: Assume that a runaway mine cart is about to go down a lane with 4 workers in it, and they will all die. If you could switch the cart to a different lane with only one person in it, would you do that?
Second: Same situation, but you are at the side of the track. If you jump in and try to stop the cart, it won't work, but you can push someone in to stop it at the cost of their life. Would you do that?
Basically, if you answer "no" in the second case, your argument about necessary evils doesn't hold up. Er, if that's the argument you're trying to make.
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On May 26 2009 07:46 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 07:37 eMbrace wrote:On May 26 2009 07:28 Archerofaiur wrote:
No your right chobo (embrace you read it the completly wrong way). One of the main arguements for slavery was that it was critical for our country's future. It was nessisary and America would be destroyed if slavery was abolished. All in all the death toll for ridding the country of slavery was 200000 Americans. Our ancestors were willing to make that kind of sacrifice for the beliefs this country was founded. And we are willing to throw them away at the threat that more people may die.
Now dont get me wrong 9/11 was absolutly terrible and I would hope it would never happen again. But you dont sacrifice what makes you human if 100 people die or 1000 or a million. America was willing to lose 200,000 to end slavery. And because of it our children have a better future. I think you read me wrong as well. I said what he wrote was an exaggeration. This country would not crumble if slavery hadn't been instantiated, but it definitely made it a lot easier and arguably the reason why the U.S. shot up so fast compared to the rest of the world. However, slavery is clearly a terrible thing, and our ancestors decided to abolish it. We are all glad that they did. I hope you don't think I'm glad we had slavery, that's not what I'm saying. It's merely a fact that when over half your country's population is free labor -- that's quite a boost to your production. Oh ok I see what your saying. And just because something appears nessisary doesnt mean you can do it. Thats what I really dont get. When has one human being tortured another and not felt it was absolutly nessesary? (Hanabal Lector aside)
sociopaths exist.
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On May 26 2009 08:16 Zozma wrote:
I don't really get it. I guess you can say that, but it's not like Hitler got out of bed and said "alright time to do some evil". I mean, everyone thinks they're right, but that doesn't make it right.
Exactly my point. Every country that tortures does it for a reason (national security, they are evil so its ok to torture them, if we dont torture them something bad will happen). The whole reason you have international "Dont Torture" laws is because torture does so often seem like the right and nessisary course of action. But its not.
On May 26 2009 08:16 Zozma wrote:
First: Assume that a runaway mine cart is about to go down a lane with 4 workers in it, and they will all die. If you could switch the cart to a different lane with only one person in it, would you do that?
Second: Same situation, but you are at the side of the track. If you jump in and try to stop the cart, it won't work, but you can push someone in to stop it at the cost of their life. Would you do that?
Basically, if you answer "no" in the second case, your argument about necessary evils doesn't hold up. Er, if that's the argument you're trying to make.
If I came from a country with founding principles that said "Don't every kill people with a cart" then no I wouldn't actively take another persons life.
On May 26 2009 08:18 choboPEon wrote:
sociopaths exist.
Thats why I said hanabal lector aside.
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On May 26 2009 08:28 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 08:16 Zozma wrote:
I don't really get it. I guess you can say that, but it's not like Hitler got out of bed and said "alright time to do some evil". I mean, everyone thinks they're right, but that doesn't make it right. Exactly my point. Every country that tortures does it for a reason (national security, they are evil so its ok to torture them, if we dont torture them something bad will happen). Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 08:16 Zozma wrote:
First: Assume that a runaway mine cart is about to go down a lane with 4 workers in it, and they will all die. If you could switch the cart to a different lane with only one person in it, would you do that?
Second: Same situation, but you are at the side of the track. If you jump in and try to stop the cart, it won't work, but you can push someone in to stop it at the cost of their life. Would you do that?
Basically, if you answer "no" in the second case, your argument about necessary evils doesn't hold up. Er, if that's the argument you're trying to make.
If I came from a country with founding principles that said "Don't every kill people with a cart" then no I wouldn't actively take another persons life.
I see a lot of people may be taking things the wrong way. This isn't about choosing between lesser evils. It's about looking at evils of the past, and learning interesting things about them.
It's just speculation. The holocaust gave us valuable medicine -- fact. The land I live on used to be owned by Native Americans that my ancestors wiped out -- fact.
It's all quite fascinating, but don't judge people's morals simply because of facts. The Holocaust was wrong, slavery was wrong, genocide is wrong.
But if you benefited from any of these things in any way, it's not morally wrong to accept that.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/square-large-coulter.jpg)
