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Osaka27172 Posts
Hello all-
Recently I have noticed a decrease in forum quality, a concern echoed by some other staff and forum members. I would like you all to remember my analogy for TL:
Imagine your friend invites you to somebody's house for dinner. You would probably be polite right? Then, once you got to know people you relax a little bit. TeamLiquid is just like that. If you are new, show respect, be polite, and have something to contribute. There are many people here who have been visiting this house for a long time. Respect that too.
If you have been to dinner before, show the new person around and help make them comfortable. That is your responsibility.
If you follow this simple illustration, then this place will be a much more enjoyable experience.
Here is an example of a quality thread:
[H]Where can I DL a "Zerg Micro Map?"
To both forum veterans and new users, please be advised that I will be enforcing my interpretation of TeamLiquid much more strictly over the next month or so. In addition, we as a staff will re-evaluate the effectiveness of the way we moderate and hopefully help add to a better environment.
If you have any questions, please send me a PM.
- Manifesto7
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hopefully you can moderate this, or because they've visited this house a long time is it ok?
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Osaka27172 Posts
On January 03 2009 20:18 Manifesto7 wrote:
If you have any questions, please send me a PM.
- Manifesto7
This is not going to turn into a finger pointing thread. Please PM me or another moderator if you have an issue.
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I agree with you, the last two posts before yours were truly stupid.
[edited]
Hey, just because some people get away with speeding, doesn't mean you will too right?
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Osaka27172 Posts
I didn't say there was slack. Both posts have been removed. But this thread is not one to point fingers in.
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Ive been reading TL.net since like 2005/2006 I finally made an account 2-3 months back, and I've noticed that you guys feed in to the "respect the older members" way too much. Most people who make new accounts I'm sure are like me because not many people are just starting to play starcraft. You "forum veterans" need to be easier on the new guys, ever notice how people with 3 posts and whatnot are usually never heard from again?
It's probably because some admin decided "this thread is retarted, Closed" when you SHOULD of given a reason, some constructive critizism, or just moved the thread to blogs.
OR it could be all the idiotic 1 liner insults heaps of members like to throw out so much.
IMO if I actually gave a shit about what a bunch of nerdlings thought of me I wouldn't use this site due to the fact that most (51%+) of the people that use this site are newby hipocrits.
Really I continue to use it because every now and then I can lend a helping hand to one of the newer people who end up pming me questions because they dont wana get burned all over the forums. Also every once in a blue moon a generally good thread comes along thats fun to participate in.
So i know you want to be stricter in a sense of posts and stuff, but if you let people feel like they were a part of the community (which they are/will be if you give them a chance) before you start flaming them and nuking accounts, maybe JUST MAYBE by the time they hit that 100th post they will have something genuine to add and contribute to the TL forums.
Otherwise, there really isn't an unlimited amount of people that you can sign up for this website, SC2 wont be out for who knows how long (its blizzard expect earty 2010 is my guess). Websites that dont get new members, dont get hits, if they dont get hits, they lose on sponcers and advertisements, they lose on sponcers and advertisements they usually BUST. TL has been around for a while, and probably will continue to be. But probably is only 51+% not 100. Nothing is forever.
That kid you flame just might click on the razer banner on the bottom of the site and buy a mouse that keeps razer thinking, Hey these guys brought us a ton of business lets keep that add on the page.
So manifesto7 before you go all old-school or nuke, why don't you shove some constructive critisizm or send a friendly PM on what you expect their next post to consist of. As a forum admin isn't that your job?
anyways thats just my 2cents hope you got something from it
EDIT:
On January 03 2009 20:38 Cambium wrote:I agree with you, the last two posts before yours were truly stupid. [edited] Hey, just because some people get away with speeding, doesn't mean you will too right?
I had to quote this because this is exactly what I'm talking about, don't hate on the new people, try and tell them their mistakes or your going to lose their "business".
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Belgium9950 Posts
On January 03 2009 20:43 GearitUP wrote:
IMO if I actually gave a shit about what a bunch of nerdlings thought of me I wouldn't use this site due to the fact that most (51%+) of the people that use this site are newby hipocrits.
Really I continue to use it because every now and then I can lend a helping hand to one of the newer people who end up pming me questions because they dont wana get burned all over the forums. Also every once in a blue moon a generally good thread comes along thats fun to participate in.
I had to quote this because this is exactly what I'm talking about, don't hate on the new people, try and tell them their mistakes or your going to lose their "business".
Wow you're arrogant.
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To GearITUP
I donno.
It's a forum. You read, you write, discuss, w/e. What could "new" people possibly fuck up? lol
A general rule for me is that, if I think there is something that affects a lot of people, I put it in the general. If it is personal, I make it a blog. Tada. =D
And I can tell you that my 1k+ posts on here doesn't mean shit lol. Mods don't care either and sometimes I say stupid things and get a temporary ban for it and some people call me a dick. Like when I said HovZ isn't a real black guy but actually an albino. Rekrul banned me. And another time when I said "GG no Re" I got a ban for that too, lol.
And ever since that happened, I've been watching what I say more carefully. There was one incident where someone in the "beating kids" thread called me an idiot and I lost my cool on him but it just takes some tough love to get used to the forums. I think TL-net is great so I don't know where all this hate is coming from. It really is just tough love; A lot of douche bags come on here and rant, and sometimes it takes another guy with the power to act like a douche bag to shut that guy up.
Lol, I'm not making too much sense. But anyway, you're making TL-net sound worse than what it really is.
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On January 03 2009 20:50 RaGe wrote:
Wow you're arrogant.
END QUOTE
Ok you can take my words out of context and continue to give me your one liner insult or you can listen to what I have to say, becuase its legitimate and I put it out there because its the truth.
If you guys didn't hate on the new people so much who knows how much more TL.net could of been? More sponcers? More cash? Maybe actually put some cash in your pockets?
All these kids you flame are your CUSTOMERS, treat them as such. I go to college for Business/sales+marketing and this is introductory level stuff.
Ever go to a restaurant and wait too long for your food? Makes you kinda upset right? Ever go to a restaurant and they fuck up a lot, bring you the wrong food? Didn't order that drink? Steak is rare you ordered well done? These customers generally don't go back to that restaurant and as we all know bad news travels faster than good news right?
What if you burn some kid that is the leader of his clan thats been around for for 3+ years, I'm sure his members care about him more than they care about you shit you just lost 10 active members and sent them packing to gosugamers.net.
This is shit to think about. Every time you send some kid packing, your taking money out of the guy who owns TL.nets pockets. (I have no idea who owns TL.net and I'm sure you admins are close to him otherwise you wouldn't probably be admins) BUT If I own a pizza place and my BROTHER comes in drunk, sits at a table with a family of four and tells the kids mom she has a nice ass right in front of her husband... I'm not letting my brother come back into my pizza place.
So you can quote my shit and call me arrogant oh so swiftly RaGe or suck it up and say to yourself, shit that arrogant prick has a point, which is totally A-OK with me.
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OK the next few paragraphs are referring to your analogy, but I agree with the other stuff like keeping posts quality and being very strict in ensuring everyone abides by this.
I disagree. Why be more lenient with people you know? Some people are different to others and it would be the host (in this case one who lets ANYONE in their house) to cater for them (not only in the sense of having all these great resources here) but be polite back, as before the person visiting has settled in how should they know how to act or when they are doing something wrong. Either way I don't think you should be more lenient on people you know to be jokers or whatever and then go and promote double standards by getting angry at the new guy who only posts infrequently for doing the same thing.
That might be reading into what you posted the wrong way, but I know it is a common thing I find and deters people from a community before they have fully settled in. I say give leeway to new people but be harsh if they don't abide by the rules when they should know better or have been repeatedly warned. On the other hand, veteran posters should know better but you would hesitate in taking any action on them knowing how much they contribute or how high ranked they are in the popularity contest and I don't think that is 100% right.
I say as long as you lay down the ground rules and show you mean it when it comes to inappropriate behaviour by old or new members, and showing you are serious, then everyone should get along fine. Similarly, it takes two to tango so when there is bm flying about it might be because someone else has started it somewhere.
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On January 03 2009 21:10 Lamentations wrote:
OK the next few paragraphs are referring to your analogy, but I agree with the other stuff like keeping posts quality and being very strict in ensuring everyone abides by this.
I disagree. Why be more lenient with people you know? Some people are different to others and it would be the host (in this case one who lets ANYONE in their house) to cater for them (not only in the sense of having all these great resources here) but be polite back, as before the person visiting has settled in how should they know how to act or when they are doing something wrong. Either way I don't think you should be more lenient on people you know to be jokers or whatever and then go and promote double standards by getting angry at the new guy who only posts infrequently for doing the same thing.
That might be reading into what you posted the wrong way, but I know it is a common thing I find and deters people from a community before they have fully settled in. I say give leeway to new people but be harsh if they don't abide by the rules when they should know better or have been repeatedly warned. On the other hand, veteran posters should know better but you would hesitate in taking any action on them knowing how much they contribute or how high ranked they are in the popularity contest and I don't think that is 100% right.
I say as long as you lay down the ground rules and show you mean it when it comes to inappropriate behaviour by old or new members, and showing you are serious, then everyone should get along fine. Similarly, it takes two to tango so when there is bm flying about it might be because someone else has started it somewhere.
What an excellent post by a person with less than 100 posts. I appreciate you coming out of the wood works and letting people know how you feel. Good Shit yo, Well said Double standards do suck.
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United States43728 Posts
Go read gg.net if you think tl is doing it wrong. And then play in the carrier league and enjoy the Gosugamers Black tournament. And of course don't forget their wonderful forums.
Seriously, tl is doing nothing wrong by being strict. I'll put it in words you'll understand. Say you own a nightclub with a strict dresscode. That means you're turning away potential customers but the ones who do go there have a better experience because they're getting the quality they come for. If you drop the rules and make it a free for all you lose quality, alienate the regulars and ultimately lose customers long term.
On tl the dress code is good posting. This in turn creates an environment in which people want to contribute. Every single one of the Final Edits is worth more than the entire gg.net articles section. Our strategy forum is full of guides where people have devoted countless manhours to it.
You're being arrogant and you're wrong. And there is no postcount elitism here. If a guy has 5k posts I'll know who he is because I'll have seen them, and I'll either respect him or disrespect him based on what I've seen. Whereas if a guy has no posts then I'll not know who he is.
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On January 03 2009 21:10 Lamentations wrote:
Similarly, it takes two to tango so when there is bm flying about it might be because someone else has started it somewhere.
Cool, however, there are a few exceptions to this sentence of yours like,
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=84664
BlackStar is just dick. And I don't think he acts like that to "new members" either, he's just a dick in general.
He called me or at least implied that I was an idiot. Fuck, what a douche bag.
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United States43728 Posts
Oh, and the suggestion that "maybe, just maybe, they'll have a decent post by their 100th" isn't a great argument. If a forum member was maintaining a ratio of 99 crap posts to 1 good he probably should be banned.
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On January 03 2009 21:18 Kwark wrote:
Oh, and the suggestion that "maybe, just maybe, they'll have a decent post by their 100th" isn't a great argument. If a forum member was maintaining a ratio of 99 crap posts to 1 good he probably should be banned.
LOL, like that guy who was banned for posting "=\" in like a hundred threads.
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I like TL's moderation policy. As it is I find TL just about the most all-around intelligent and good-natured forum, contrasting with the cesspits that most other open forums end up becoming. There can be no doubt strictness in moderation is directly correlated with forum QUALITY.
If you drop the rules and make it a free for all you lose quality, alienate the regulars and ultimately lose customers long term.
On tl the dress code is good posting. This in turn creates an environment in which people want to contribute. Every single one of the Final Edits is worth more than the entire gg.net articles section. Our strategy forum is full of guides where people have devoted countless manhours to it.
This man speaks the truth
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On January 03 2009 21:18 Kwark wrote:
Oh, and the suggestion that "maybe, just maybe, they'll have a decent post by their 100th" isn't a great argument. If a forum member was maintaining a ratio of 99 crap posts to 1 good he probably should be banned.
Why...? That makes no sense, I disagree with you 100%. What do you consider a crap post.
If someone goes on the strategy forum sees something they like and posts, "wow i never thought of that, thanks for the strat."
Really, they didn't contribute anything, the post isn't really that amazing. Merely showing your appreciation for a good post I feel IS a good post, not only have you boosted someones ego but you inspire them to make more good posts and that in turn helps the community.
Let me ask you Kwark how many times have you quoted something and only added
LOL
at the bottom, dont try and tell me you've never done it, really thats a crap post. But sometimes its not WHAT you post, but what you got from the OP.
Really the quote I got from you is a crap post... you didn't add anything positive to the community all, all you did was add your negativity to a very good thread.
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United States43728 Posts
The post you're objecting to was me disagreeing with you. And yet you're disagreeing with that and accusing me of being negative. Sigh. All you did was add your negativity to a very good thread.
A crap post is, as you say, just adding lol. Saying you appreciate something is fine. This should be fairly self evident. And I very rarely just say lol. It's a waste of forum space.
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kwark is quite right.
also, you could just as easily make the argument that its this sentiment that we SHOULDNT be so hard on the newbies that is negatively affecting the forums. this sentiment has been growing with time in direct correlation to the degradation of the forums. Also, all these veterans you think are being so harsh have gone through the exact plight you highlight without stepping out of line (else they'd have been corrected or banned)
however, very obviously with this sort of idea the admins and vets shape the forum. which obviously isnt much working either.
a seemingly delicate situation, only to be corrected by an individuals resolution to improve their quality in an effort to make it a collective process. maybe.
er that is to say that no one should point the finger at a group of people. its on the individual or the whole.
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EPT
