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United States24805 Posts
On January 04 2009 06:00 RaGe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 05:13 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I agree with you, Gear. The real problem is that all the old-timers have become douchebags.
I mean, just look at RaGe's post. ... I have read a shitload of GearItUp posts and 99% of them were terrible. Then, as one of the worst low post count users he starts giving us shit for giving veterans some more credit? Not to mention the way in which he did it.. (this is in reply to GearItUp  The small advantages that we give to veteran users are advantages they earned. And while sometimes it may be a bit unfair, I often get the feeling that a lot of previously permbanned users and warned/tempbanned users use it as an excuse. "If I had more posts I wouldn't have been banned for that." or "There are forum regulars that post worse than me." are the worst excuses I personally can imagine for bad posting behaviour. First of all, low post count or high post count, before a ban a mod will ALWAYS look at your post history. If you don't contribute at all, badmouth other people don't blame TLs moderating system. Blame yourself. I'm 100% convinced that every single person on this planet could post actively on TL and not get banned, as long as he puts effort, thought and respect into his posts. We never ban based off personality (with LastShadow etc being obvious exceptions). Secondly, as previously mentioned, while this slight advantage giving to veterans might be a bit unfair compared to other forum moderating systems, it definately churns out the best forum quality. Doesn't seniority always play a role in every active community? Otherwise it's really hard to moderate and/or maintain a quality standard in the forums. Also, I would like to react to your 'Customer Is King' argument. Who the fuck do you think you are, GearItUp ? 'Im a new poster, I make you guys money, serve me bitches' is basically the aura that came off of your posts. Every single active staff member of TeamLiquid gives a lot to the TL community without getting any kind of money out of it. No, we do it cause we like the community and it's high standards. Your argument says that we should "adapt to the customer's needs". I think that a staff filled with people that are committed to the community are allowed to demand a good post quality from that community. They are allowed to determine what defines a good post and what defines a bad post.Now, I'm not asking you to bow humbly for all staff members, but the least you could show some respect to the set of rules they defined, the set of rules that made this website have a high quality community for so many years. You're new around here, and while it would indeed be unfair of me to judge you based on your joining date/post count, you should realize that you're 1. too new and mostly 2. too much of a HORRIBLE poster to fully understand how TL works, let alone redefine our standards. I doubt you're even gonna read this. You're probably just gonna cry over the ban you've just been given, whine that it's all because you're a low post count user, and never change your arrogant attitude.
Rage, to add to what you said:
Manifesto7 has made it very clear that new members of the community are entering our house (by 'our', I mean everyone who already actively participates in the community, with an emphasis on the people who work hard to keep it running smoothly). While it's wrong for any veteran or staff to place unreasonable expectations on a new member (such as hold them to ridiculous standards until they can amass X number of posts without getting banned), it's reasonable for new members to be willing to conform to the established community.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
I closed someone's thread yesterday and he PMed me confused and after a brief discussion via PM it came up that he simply didn't know we expect high standard in OPs/Threads. This is an issue we will be addressing for ANY user making threads.
The reason many new posters have issue with "veteran status" and the leeway they get is simple ignorance. I routinely get asked why incontrol gets more leniency than a new poster - its because he is a valued member of the community and has contributed ALOT whether he trolls a bit or not. This is the case with most veterans that people have "issue" with, but the 10 or so posts that a new user may read of said member doesn't do them justice - nor are they really in a position to be judging anyways.
That being said, I do think quality has dropped recently specifically with an influx of new users in SC2/General posting links with 2 lines in an OP. It's not so much a crackdown on posters as much as an education on what is expected so that new posters can become valued members of the community - we were all noobs once.
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I read tl.net for 6 years and there is one one thing I know for sure. Every shitty poster has been banned sooner or later.
The increase of popularity of the site (there are 1000 people browsing now, in the begining there were no more that 50-60) brings a lot of lot low-quality posters here. I find this pretty normal.
This being said, I consider myself very low-quality poster, thats why I don`t write many comments or get in arguments or try to be "cool". I just love starcraft and admire what tl.net and its admins have done.
My personal opinion is that everyone disrespecting tl.net is disrespecting Starcraft so they must be banned.
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it is not the admins' job to teach people how to make a meaningful, fallacy free post, because in order to learn something the one doing the learning must be willing to learn. This just don't happen for the majorities of the noobs here. Therefore what is left to do is to kindly remove all those who can't make an argument and refuse to learn how. So that the rest of us who know how to can enjoy a meaningful debate and share ideas, and most importantly of all, learn something from it.
People would argue that what qualification do the admins have to decide whether a post is full of fallacies and adds nothing for the community but bigotry. The answer is here
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17883
The ten commandment is to help those of us that can't post without commiting fallacies, and bigotry.
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umm I dont think hes flaming the thread. It says " heres an example of a quality thread"
I think that means its a good thread? Quality = good right?
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If any new poster has terrible doubts on how to make a good post:
just click search, search art of posting, by VGI-CoW
then read. It's pretty entertaining thread, and useful
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One annoying thing I have noticed lately is that people dont read the threads. They read the opening post and maybe the last page and thats is it. Dont really remember what thread it was but a question was answered like 3-4times and still people were asking it again and again.
Or once in a while I see a very interesting post that someone have put some effort and research behind pretty much get ignored due to the flood of nonsense posts.
Unfortunately this behavior cant really be moderated so I guess I just have to ignore those threads.
Or I'm just old and bitter remembering what TL.net used to be when I lurked and later joined in 02-03.
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Didn't read every single post in this thread since the fighting started to become wearisome for me but I'll throw my 5 cents in aswell.
I'm a long time reader but a pretty new member (1 year maybe? Can't be bothered checking it ). I'm also a bit of a lurker. Because of this I have a low post count. I am the kind of guy who generally don't type stuff unless I feel I have something to contribute with. I haven't felt discriminated against in any way for having a low post count and I feel like that part of the discussion is just a lie. Some people get butchered for being newbies but mostly because they wrote something about something they know very little to nothing about. The people that bully these guys the worst are in my opinion the 100-500 post guys. People that have gotten their posts up a bit and feel like playing veteran even though they really aren't and thus they just come off as unpleasant people. I can't remember seeing a 2k+ posts guy flame someone wrongfully and I've certainly never seen a mod doing it.
Everyone that plays starcraft regularly think they know more than they actually do (including me ofcouse). Hence all the imba whine and theorycrafting fights that are found in every single BW forum. Some people don't know when to keep it to themselves though. You don't start flaming others on a subject you're not sure about. It's gonna come back and bite you hard later.
I agree with being a bit more lenient towards banning veterans since the fact that they probably contributed more and will contribute more in the future can make up for their mistakes as long as they better themselves. Of course it can feel unfair that new guys get banned because they are new and don't know how to do stuff yet but as long as they are given a chance to learn I don't see the problem in banning people that disregard the rules. Including people that continually fail to name their posts correctly and such.
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On January 04 2009 05:25 AdamBanks wrote:
Ugh another one of these purges. These things do little to improve the quality of posting here rather it just turns into finger pointing, name calling and then temp bans. Its good that you are trying to improve post quality, but your method (or lack thereof) has not the effects you desire and quiet possibily detracts from the quality of disscussion on the forum.
We should have a good ol fashioned witch hunt where everybody just submits names of anyone they want banned. Mob justice FTW.
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I may have learned something reading this thread....Nah not really its all common sense beginning with the first post. Most of the opinions given had somewhat of a tick to it thou.
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On January 03 2009 21:17 Kwark wrote:
Go read gg.net if you think tl is doing it wrong. And then play in the carrier league and enjoy the Gosugamers Black tournament. And of course don't forget their wonderful forums.
Seriously, tl is doing nothing wrong by being strict. I'll put it in words you'll understand. Say you own a nightclub with a strict dresscode. That means you're turning away potential customers but the ones who do go there have a better experience because they're getting the quality they come for. If you drop the rules and make it a free for all you lose quality, alienate the regulars and ultimately lose customers long term.
On tl the dress code is good posting. This in turn creates an environment in which people want to contribute. Every single one of the Final Edits is worth more than the entire gg.net articles section. Our strategy forum is full of guides where people have devoted countless manhours to it.
You're being arrogant and you're wrong. And there is no postcount elitism here. If a guy has 5k posts I'll know who he is because I'll have seen them, and I'll either respect him or disrespect him based on what I've seen. Whereas if a guy has no posts then I'll not know who he is.
Gears is obviously a tard, but I think he has a point. Kwark, it's ridiculous to argue that there is no postcount elitism in TL. There is always a bias towards seniority in any social group, and TL in particular is no exception. Some of the posts by mods here even acknowledge that, like what Kennigit I think said about incontrol. I don't think there's a problem with rewarding senior posters, but I think it's a problem when that reward is "do whatever the fuck you want, how you want". If anything, the veteran posters should act as role models for the rest of the forum. As naive as that might sound, it's a fact that new posters, especially the younger crowd, look up to and imitate veterans. The amount of ass kissing that goes into a rekrul thread is enough to trigger my vomit reflex for example, but that's another story.
In general though, this policy of giving people like incontrol absolute leeway in posting however they like only generates resentment and gives people an excuse to imitate their idiocy. Don't get me wrong, I like the moderation policy here. For a gaming forum, TL posters can be remarkably intelligent, and it's only because people like mani have done a good job of weeding out the the crusty undergrowth is that possible. I just think you should be consistent with regards to how it's applied.
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In the spirit of preserving (restoring?) the quality of TL.net I'd like to dedicate my 1000th post to HonestTea, the author of many a good thread (such as http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=61851) and to this date my my one big idol on these forums - although i rarely ever see him anymore.
I've been voicing my opinion on numerous occasions lately about the generally decreased quality of posting on these forums over the past few months and it absolutely delights me to see a thread like this, not only the initiative itself from Mani, but the amount of engagement from a lot of veteran members throughout the thread. It's good to see that people still care.
I wouldn't say I miss the old days of, in my opinion, semi-reckless wielding of the banhammer (I love you Rekrul, but you're a man with a short fuse), but it'd be good to see some stricter moderating at least for an extended period of time henceforth.
Chill said a while ago that he'd be coming down harder on bad threads in the strategy forum and I think there's been a visible difference, but that's unfortuantely the only section that's been up to standards lately. It's not like anyone expects Tourney-threads to stop being orgies of one-liners, but it'd be nice if we could keep other sections from becoming the same
Here's to constructive posting and helping each other around the TL-house! 
A fine New Year's resolution in my opinion.
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On January 04 2009 07:21 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 05:25 AdamBanks wrote:
Ugh another one of these purges. These things do little to improve the quality of posting here rather it just turns into finger pointing, name calling and then temp bans. Its good that you are trying to improve post quality, but your method (or lack thereof) has not the effects you desire and quiet possibily detracts from the quality of disscussion on the forum. We should have a good ol fashioned witch hunt where everybody just submits names of anyone they want banned. Mob justice FTW.
wanna bet the first nominee is someone whose name starts with 'r' and has seven letters
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You guys are like the soup nazi.
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I will not be banned without a good reason before I've had my last my word, after I post this you can go ahead and ban me again and I'll gladly wait until the ban effect wears off.
OH GOD TRANSMITTION JARBLED ASIOPDHAPSIHBDAPSBD. Get the fuck out love kennigit.
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martyr's aren't supposed to come back to life though
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
lol gearitup trying to rally other angry 'nerdlings' behind him .lol ok whatever man!
a good example of how not to post i would say...
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On January 04 2009 07:51 ahrara_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 07:21 Luddite wrote:On January 04 2009 05:25 AdamBanks wrote:
Ugh another one of these purges. These things do little to improve the quality of posting here rather it just turns into finger pointing, name calling and then temp bans. Its good that you are trying to improve post quality, but your method (or lack thereof) has not the effects you desire and quiet possibily detracts from the quality of disscussion on the forum. We should have a good ol fashioned witch hunt where everybody just submits names of anyone they want banned. Mob justice FTW. wanna bet the first nominee is someone whose name starts with 'r' and has seven letters
Damn this one's hard, I still can't figure it out 
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United States44372 Posts
Arrogant isn't an insult, it's a description in your case. Fortunately your stupidity in insisting on having the last word means you'll be gone. Good riddance.
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United States44372 Posts
On January 04 2009 09:28 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 07:51 ahrara_ wrote:On January 04 2009 07:21 Luddite wrote:On January 04 2009 05:25 AdamBanks wrote:
Ugh another one of these purges. These things do little to improve the quality of posting here rather it just turns into finger pointing, name calling and then temp bans. Its good that you are trying to improve post quality, but your method (or lack thereof) has not the effects you desire and quiet possibily detracts from the quality of disscussion on the forum. We should have a good ol fashioned witch hunt where everybody just submits names of anyone they want banned. Mob justice FTW. wanna bet the first nominee is someone whose name starts with 'r' and has seven letters Damn this one's hard, I still can't figure it out
raithed
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v348/guxtav-/artofposting.jpg)
