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Adderall - Miracle Drug? - Page 9

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G5
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States2921 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-12 01:21:47
November 12 2008 01:16 GMT
#161
my friend takes adderall

its mainly for adhd (extremely hyper) and no, not ADD.

its basically legal meth and in fact it isn't good for you. Many people think its harmless because of the fact that it is legal. Not true.

to a normal person it has the same effects as meth and makes you happy / feeling good / alert etc...

to a person with adhd, it has a somewhat reverse effect and instead of speeding things up for them, it slows them down / calms them / still makes them feel good / helps them focus.

I wouldn't fake ADHD to get this, its irresponsible / stupid.

All of this is what my doctor / friend have both told me.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 12 2008 01:17 GMT
#162
On November 12 2008 10:07 aRod wrote:
The suggestion that there are no laws or direct cause and effect in psychology is rediculous. With neuropsychology, they do deep brain stimulation to determine what brain areas are involved with what.


as I said,

"Neuropsychology is starting to change that but that's only because of the "neuro" part, not the "psychology"."



Did you know that if they stimulate an area in your brain called the septum that you will innevitably burst out obsenities.


This is exactly what I am talking about. This is tendency. This is what "generally" happens. I wager everything I have that if you take a serious buddhist monk and test this on him and the results will be different.


Classical conditioning is another example of a law that is applicable to all animals of a certain species with certain cognitive abilities.


no, it is not a law. and it not always applicable(though obviously, behavior of animals becomes more and more predictable as you go down the evolutionary chain

but this is certainly not a law. it is as much a law as "pine needles on trees will be green in the spring".
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 12 2008 01:18 GMT
#163
On November 12 2008 10:10 NastyMarine wrote:
There is most definitely cause and effect models that can be applicable in all situations. For instance the S->R model.


care to enlighten me on what you are talking about?
because I have no clue
NastyMarine
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States1252 Posts
November 12 2008 01:32 GMT
#164
Controlled Stimulus (S) -> Automatic Response (R)

If you are truly interested msg me and I can give you power point slides.
Treatin' fools since '87
Frits
Profile Joined March 2003
11782 Posts
November 12 2008 01:37 GMT
#165
Travis you're critisizing psychology on not being an exact science. That's so incredibly rediculous.

If you had any idea about the amount of things that attribute to behavior you wouldn't make such rediculous statements. Ofcourse you have to generalize behavior, it's mostly based on positional factors which makes behavior incredibly hard to predict.

You can't make an exact theory on something that is influenced by positional factors because the possibilities of situations are endless, which makes it impossible to predict behavior 100%. So we study things that are generally true in certain situations that results in practical knowledge.
Frits
Profile Joined March 2003
11782 Posts
November 12 2008 01:41 GMT
#166
On November 12 2008 10:32 NastyMarine wrote:
Controlled Stimulus (S) -> Automatic Response (R)

If you are truly interested msg me and I can give you power point slides.


Why bother, the theory has been proven wrong or at least incomplete in some aspects ages ago anyway.
aRod
Profile Joined July 2007
United States758 Posts
November 12 2008 01:43 GMT
#167
Since you refuse to label classical conditioning as a law, we will call it "the thing that works every time in capable animals."

I'd be willing to take that bet with you on the Buddhist monk. Whatever words he finds obsene, he will utter them when his septum is stimulated.
Live to win.
JadeFist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States1225 Posts
November 12 2008 01:44 GMT
#168
On November 10 2008 02:42 FzeroXx wrote:
Placebo drug. Grow up and be responsible. ADHD isn't real.

ADHD is all too real. But it's misdiagnosed quite often.

You can't just tell someone to "grow up and be responsible" and expect it to just happen. I understand you were intending to be blunt, but you're also wrong.

I'm diagnosed with ADHD. I know it's real and I consider myself to be a severe case.

As a young child, probably about 3 or 4, my signs were very apparent. When my pre-school teacher would instruct the children in my class to report to recess or the next activity, she would repeatedly have to instruct me to do so because I was not paying attention.

Did I choose to not pay attention?

Was I disobedient?

Was I lazy?

Of course not! At that age one is not able to make the conscious decision to blow things off. I just did not have the attention span or ability to concentrate of a normal child.

In first grade I had an evil teacher (she had a nervous breakdown at the end of the year followed by a hiatus) who would make fun of me every time one of my belongings was brought to class because I left it somewhere. As one can imagine, this occurred almost every day...

People say "everyone has ADD." Yes, like I said before, it's often misdiagnosed because people want an excuse to take drugs or use the label as a crutch.

My signs when I was young however, are not common. In fact, the only reason I know about my pre-school experience is because the teacher pulled my mother aside to tell her of my unusual behavior because it concerned her.

Today I still have great trouble remembering things and paying attention. I've probably lost 8 or 9 jackets over the course of high school. I also can't keep still.

Like a previous poster said, Adderall has the opposite effect on those with ADHD. I assume this is true considering in some posts people complain of "jitters" and "bouncing off the walls."
When I took Adderall I had none of that. It calmed me down a lot and helped me focus.

However, when I'd come off it it would make me seriously depressed and I couldn't live well taking it regularly. Helped me get a 2050 on the SAT though.

ADHD should not be taken lightly. It's serious considering those who REALLY have it are blamed for all their problems their whole life which leads to a lack of confidence, motivation, and self-respect.

So...
When someone says, "ADHD is a made up disease," or "ADHD is just an excuse," it gets me really angry because I know what I and others like me have been through.
NastyMarine
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States1252 Posts
November 12 2008 01:52 GMT
#169
Amen
Treatin' fools since '87
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-12 02:04:58
November 12 2008 01:53 GMT
#170
On November 12 2008 10:37 Frits wrote:
Travis you're critisizing psychology on not being an exact science. That's so incredibly rediculous.


Criticizing? When was I criticizing? If I call a cloud water am I criticizing the cloud?

And what is so bad about criticizing, anyways?


If you had any idea about the amount of things that attribute to behavior you wouldn't make such rediculous statements.


what?


Of course you have to generalize behavior, it's mostly based on positional factors which makes behavior incredibly hard to predict.


well that would go hand in hand with my point now wouldn't it.


You can't make an exact theory on something that is influenced by positional factors because the possibilities of situations are endless, which makes it impossible to predict behavior 100%. So we study things that are generally true in certain situations that results in practical knowledge.


yes I completely agree. how does this negate anything I said?
Frits
Profile Joined March 2003
11782 Posts
November 12 2008 01:59 GMT
#171
It's rediculous to claim it's not a real disorder because there are clearly underdeveloped parts of the brain and faulty neurotransmitters in people who have ADHD. What we should do with people who suffer from it is open for debate like HeadBangaa made clear but you can't argue against it being a real disorder.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 12 2008 02:03 GMT
#172
On November 12 2008 10:43 aRod wrote:
Since you refuse to label classical conditioning as a law, we will call it "the thing that works every time in capable animals."


I will humor you and say okay, a given type of conditioning works with a given animal 100% of the time.

So I ask you - are the results the exact same every time? Does it always take the same amount of time to work? Does it always result in precisely the same behavior?


I'd be willing to take that bet with you on the Buddhist monk. Whatever words he finds obsene, he will utter them when his septum is stimulated.


it's too bad we have no way to really test this
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-12 02:04:41
November 12 2008 02:04 GMT
#173
haha jadefist i probably lost like 10 different coats/jackets at school

(from like, middle school - high school)
Frits
Profile Joined March 2003
11782 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-12 02:14:14
November 12 2008 02:12 GMT
#174
On November 12 2008 10:53 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2008 10:37 Frits wrote:
Travis you're critisizing psychology on not being an exact science. That's so incredibly rediculous.


Criticizing? When was I criticizing? If I call a cloud water am I criticizing the cloud?

And what is so bad about criticizing, anyways?

Show nested quote +

If you had any idea about the amount of things that attribute to behavior you wouldn't make such rediculous statements.


what?

Show nested quote +

Of course you have to generalize behavior, it's mostly based on positional factors which makes behavior incredibly hard to predict.


well that would go hand in hand with my point now wouldn't it.

Show nested quote +
You can't make an exact theory on something that is influenced by positional factors because the possibilities of situations are endless, which makes it impossible to predict behavior 100%. So we study things that are generally true in certain situations that results in practical knowledge.


yes I completely agree. how does this negate anything I said?

- You said psychology was largely false, that's unconstructive criticism.

- With what point? It certainly doesn't make a point for psychological knowledge being false. It makes clear that psychology is very complicated, not that it's false.

-You said that psychological knowledge doesn't lead to practical knowledge in every situation. Ofcourse it doesn't you have to generalize situations for it to be an accurate but how does that make psychology largely false?

What I got from your arguments is that you think lots of things in psychology are false (which they aren't there are just other things that influence behavior that would lead you to believe a certain law isn't a law all of a sudden) because there isn't an accurate law for it that predicts it. I'm trying to make clear that that would be nearly impossible but that that doesn't have to mean psychology is largely false.

i really have to sleep now though
Servolisk
Profile Blog Joined February 2003
United States5241 Posts
November 12 2008 02:12 GMT
#175
On November 12 2008 10:16 G5 wrote:
to a person with adhd, it has a somewhat reverse effect and instead of speeding things up for them, it slows them down / calms them / still makes them feel good / helps them focus.


People keep saying this, but I don't know of any scientific evidence to support this claim. The strongest evidence (still non-scientific though, since that is inherent with something like ADD) I've seen is against. People who do not really have ADD have said, in this thread even, what you described above is true of them...
wtf was that signature
d_so
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)3262 Posts
November 12 2008 02:16 GMT
#176
On November 10 2008 02:42 FzeroXx wrote:
Placebo drug. Grow up and be responsible. ADHD isn't real.


asshole
manner
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 12 2008 02:29 GMT
#177
On November 12 2008 11:12 Frits wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2008 10:53 travis wrote:
On November 12 2008 10:37 Frits wrote:
Travis you're critisizing psychology on not being an exact science. That's so incredibly rediculous.


Criticizing? When was I criticizing? If I call a cloud water am I criticizing the cloud?

And what is so bad about criticizing, anyways?


If you had any idea about the amount of things that attribute to behavior you wouldn't make such rediculous statements.


what?


Of course you have to generalize behavior, it's mostly based on positional factors which makes behavior incredibly hard to predict.


well that would go hand in hand with my point now wouldn't it.

You can't make an exact theory on something that is influenced by positional factors because the possibilities of situations are endless, which makes it impossible to predict behavior 100%. So we study things that are generally true in certain situations that results in practical knowledge.


yes I completely agree. how does this negate anything I said?

- You said psychology was largely false, that's unconstructive criticism.

The only thing I said regarding psychology's merits is that it can be useful. If you construe my post as criticism, that is fine. I was unaware "psychology" was going to be reading my posts so I really had no intention of criticizing it.


- With what point? It certainly doesn't make a point for psychological knowledge being false. It makes clear that psychology is very complicated, not that it's false.


false isn't really the word I would have used had I known there would be a big discussion about it. a better term would be "inaccurate".

not to say there isn't psychology which is taught and is false. but there is less and less of that, these days.


-You said that psychological knowledge doesn't lead to practical knowledge in every situation. Ofcourse it doesn't you have to generalize situations for it to be an accurate but how does that make psychology largely false?


I did not say that it does.


What I got from your arguments is that you think lots of things in psychology are false (which they aren't there are just other things that influence behavior that would lead you to believe a certain law isn't a law all of a sudden) because there isn't an accurate law for it that predicts it. I'm trying to make clear that that would be nearly impossible but that that doesn't have to mean psychology is largely false.


We have been agreeing for a while here now.

If you want me to change my statement to "psychology is largely conditionally false", then fine.
Motiva
Profile Joined November 2007
United States1774 Posts
November 12 2008 10:04 GMT
#178
There are fine reasons to question the validity of some psychology as a science... Even so, a lot of it is real science, and a lot can be learned from the majority of all of it when applied to the correct perspectives......


Copied and Pasted from wikipedia on the validity of psychology as a science:
+ Show Spoiler +

A common criticism of psychology concerns its fuzziness as a science. Philosopher Thomas Kuhn's 1962 critique implied psychology overall was in a pre-paradigm state, lacking the agreement on overarching theory found in mature sciences such as chemistry and physics. Because some areas of psychology rely on research methods such as surveys and questionnaires, critics have claimed that psychology is not as scientific as many assume. Other phenomena that psychologists are interested in such as personality, thinking and emotion cannot be directly measured and are often inferred from subjective self-reports, which may be of limited use to an objectifying science.

The validity of probability testing as a research tool has been called into question. There is concern that this statistical method may promote trivial findings as meaningful, especially when large samples are used.[33] Some psychologists have responded with an increased use of effect size statistics, rather than sole reliance on the traditional p<.05 decision rule in statistical hypothesis testing.

In recent years, and particularly in the U.S., there has been increasing debate about the nature of therapeutic effectiveness and about the relevance of empirically examining psychotherapeutic strategies.[34] One argument states that some therapies are based on discredited theories and are unsupported by empirical evidence. The other side points to recent research suggesting that all mainstream therapies are of about equal effectiveness, while also arguing that controlled studies often do not take into consideration real-world conditions (e.g. the high co-morbidity rate or the experience of clinicians); that research is heavily biased towards the methods of the cognitive behavioral therapies (CBT); and that it typically under-represents minority groups.


meh.
Servolisk
Profile Blog Joined February 2003
United States5241 Posts
November 12 2008 13:25 GMT
#179
On November 12 2008 10:44 JadeFist wrote:
So...
When someone says, "ADHD is a made up disease," or "ADHD is just an excuse," it gets me really angry because I know what I and others like me have been through.


There are at least enough verified cases of people using it as an excuse for it to be common. Not sure why it should be believed that it is often very different without any evidence to support it... (besides testimonies that people with ADD really have unique problems that you cannot imagine (yet somehow they can imagine what a "normal" person is like, and that they are different...)).

Things like losing jackets and performing badly in class are obviously unspecific to ADD, so could people please stop trying to use that as evidence, let alone proof?

Question: is there such a thing as someone who is just bad in school and forgetful without having a disease to blame?????? It seems like there isn't.
wtf was that signature
rKos
Profile Joined July 2008
Finland131 Posts
November 12 2008 13:29 GMT
#180
Oh the pains of not being the statistical norm. I wish I had a drug to make me like society wants me to be.
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