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On November 20 2010 13:07 Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 12:55 Dayvan wrote:
if you don't approve of how a system runs, you don't have to use it.
It is unfortunate you think this way. I've never understood how people go through life thinking, "Whatever the overlords throw at me, I'll just deal with it and ridicule people who desire freedom". You must live in a completely different world than the one I live in.
Or he realizes that the only real way to protest the system is to bypass it at every turn.
But I'm sure he's just ridiculing you.
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On November 20 2010 13:07 Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 12:55 Dayvan wrote:
if you don't approve of how a system runs, you don't have to use it.
It is unfortunate you think this way. I've never understood how people go through life thinking, "Whatever the overlords throw at me, I'll just deal with it and ridicule people who desire freedom". You must live in a completely different world than the one I live in.
Because anyone who disagrees with your political stance is a weak-willed failure who lets himself be shepherded by our evil overlords. You think that spouting the "freedom" line makes anything you say above reproach, because how can someone's argument possibly be "good" if it doesn't align perfectly with your personal philosophy? Some people don't share the same views as you do, some people put up with airport security and incompetent government because they have better things to do, not because they're apathetic, and some people understand that rights also come with responsibilities.
Maybe you live in a world where every political issue is some black and white struggle between the working class and the beaurocracy, but the rest of us who live in the real world often approach problems constructively. I've seen plenty of good arguments in this thread about why the TSA is a bad organization, why these machines aren't really as good as they're made out to be, and why the people being hired to use them are incompetent, but rarely are these arguments separated from the constant crying about rights and liberties, and the equally overblown comparisons to sexual assault and child pornography.
EDIT: Speaking of ridicule... if someone deserves to get ridiculed, it's the person who answers every question by trying to ram their "civil rights" down everyone's throats and who claims that even accepting the premise is grounds for being labeled as someone who doesn't care about freedom.
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On November 20 2010 13:36 Dayvan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 13:07 Romantic wrote:On November 20 2010 12:55 Dayvan wrote:
if you don't approve of how a system runs, you don't have to use it.
It is unfortunate you think this way. I've never understood how people go through life thinking, "Whatever the overlords throw at me, I'll just deal with it and ridicule people who desire freedom". You must live in a completely different world than the one I live in. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but I only have two things to say about this. You must live in a very socialist world because where I'm from, if people don't pay for your product then it doesn't get sold. In a capitalist society, the niche always gets filled by someone/something else that's worth your two cents. Freedom doesn't come from bitching, it comes from action. In this country action is manifested by dollar bills. How the hell am I ridiculing freedom? This whole time I've been professing my desire for the freedom to live. If I wanted to come up with some stupid naive argument blaming one source over some other source to make it sound like I cared, I would just blame the radical fundamentalist groups who caused a necessity for all of this security to begin with. Unfortunately not everyone in this country responds to reason and that's why I insist people protest on the surest way to get attention: not by denying them your confidence but by denying them your checkbook.
But these scanners are mandatory. If you fly, you have to go through them. Saying "then don't use it" is like saying "then don't go anywhere ever."
On November 20 2010 13:40 SharkSpider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 13:07 Romantic wrote:On November 20 2010 12:55 Dayvan wrote:
if you don't approve of how a system runs, you don't have to use it.
It is unfortunate you think this way. I've never understood how people go through life thinking, "Whatever the overlords throw at me, I'll just deal with it and ridicule people who desire freedom". You must live in a completely different world than the one I live in. Because anyone who disagrees with your political stance is a weak-willed failure who lets himself be shepherded by our evil overlords. You think that spouting the "freedom" line makes anything you say above reproach, because how can someone's argument possibly be "good" if it doesn't align perfectly with your personal philosophy? Some people don't share the same views as you do, some people put up with airport security and incompetent government because they have better things to do, not because they're apathetic, and some people understand that rights also come with responsibilities. Maybe you live in a world where every political issue is some black and white struggle between the working class and the beaurocracy, but the rest of us who live in the real world often approach problems constructively. I've seen plenty of good arguments in this thread about why the TSA is a bad organization, why these machines aren't really as good as they're made out to be, and why the people being hired to use them are incompetent, but rarely are these arguments separated from the constant crying about rights and liberties, and the equally overblown comparisons to sexual assault and child pornography. EDIT: Speaking of ridicule... if someone deserves to get ridiculed, it's the person who answers every question by trying to ram their "civil rights" down everyone's throats and who claims that even accepting the premise is grounds for being labeled as someone who doesn't care about freedom.
Well, the scanners kinda violate the fourth amendment. I mean, I don't mind going through a scanner, if it actually kept me safe and it actually worked. But it doesn't. It's a waste of money, and a huge one at that.
And the terrorists will find a way around this anyway. Even if we somehow make it so that the chance of a terrorist attack involving airports is impossible, the terrorists will just resort to other methods. Trying to stop attacks like this is futile, and only hurts us economically.
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On November 20 2010 13:36 Dayvan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 13:07 Romantic wrote:On November 20 2010 12:55 Dayvan wrote:
if you don't approve of how a system runs, you don't have to use it.
It is unfortunate you think this way. I've never understood how people go through life thinking, "Whatever the overlords throw at me, I'll just deal with it and ridicule people who desire freedom". You must live in a completely different world than the one I live in. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but I only have two things to say about this. You must live in a very socialist world because where I'm from, if people don't pay for your product then it doesn't get sold. In a capitalist society, the niche always gets filled by someone/something else that's worth your two cents. Freedom doesn't come from bitching, it comes from action. In this country action is manifested by dollar bills. How the hell am I ridiculing freedom? This whole time I've been professing my desire for the freedom to live. If I wanted to come up with some stupid naive argument blaming one source over some other source to make it sound like I cared, I would just blame the radical fundamentalist groups who caused a necessity for all of this security to begin with. Unfortunately not everyone in this country responds to reason and that's why I insist people protest on the surest way to get attention: not by denying them your confidence but by denying them your checkbook.
I was not specifically referring to you. I apologize for not being clearer and for being hostile.
Airlines has no choice in the matter; they have to use TSA's guidelines even if they use private security. Market protesting won't really work unless the airlines successfully lobby Congress to revoke the TSA's authority to make administrative rules like this (I somehow doubt that it will otherwise change).
I do live in a very socialist world ^_____^
Edit: I know a lot of market fundamentalists who use black markets to avoid taxes etc, but its kinda hard to have a black market airliner, unfortunately.
Also edit, I don't think anyone disagrees action is better than talking, but part of action is organizing (requires talking)
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On November 20 2010 13:44 Ferrose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 13:36 Dayvan wrote:On November 20 2010 13:07 Romantic wrote:On November 20 2010 12:55 Dayvan wrote:
if you don't approve of how a system runs, you don't have to use it.
It is unfortunate you think this way. I've never understood how people go through life thinking, "Whatever the overlords throw at me, I'll just deal with it and ridicule people who desire freedom". You must live in a completely different world than the one I live in. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but I only have two things to say about this. You must live in a very socialist world because where I'm from, if people don't pay for your product then it doesn't get sold. In a capitalist society, the niche always gets filled by someone/something else that's worth your two cents. Freedom doesn't come from bitching, it comes from action. In this country action is manifested by dollar bills. How the hell am I ridiculing freedom? This whole time I've been professing my desire for the freedom to live. If I wanted to come up with some stupid naive argument blaming one source over some other source to make it sound like I cared, I would just blame the radical fundamentalist groups who caused a necessity for all of this security to begin with. Unfortunately not everyone in this country responds to reason and that's why I insist people protest on the surest way to get attention: not by denying them your confidence but by denying them your checkbook. But these scanners are mandatory. If you fly, you have to go through them. Saying "then don't use it" is like saying "then don't go anywhere ever."
no they are not mandatory. you can decline and get a pat down instead. from what i've gathered they do not literally touch your junk. most people are just going on the Touch my junk video and running with it.... they stop on your lower abdomen and at your upper leg. some people are just way too sensitive.
We are talking about mega-tonne 747s flying at hundreds of miles per hour above my house, my parents work, our children's school. Thousands of people a day are using these aircrafts. it better be for fucking sure safe to enter.
and talk about profiling or Israeli-styled security as some have pointed out to being the better option. imagine your TSA with sub-machine guns, stopping you when you pull up in your car, stopping you when you enter, stopping you when you pick up your tickets and check your bags. All asking you the same questions, being hassled your entire time at the airport. Sure there are no body scanners, but if that really the better option?
but A) Only about 10-15% of the travelling public are chosen for body scanners.
B) People chosen for the bodyscan/patdowns most of the time were selected even before they reached the airport. If it happens to you once, expect it every time. You are being profiled or selected on purpose.
C) Getting a pat down, if chosen, takes literally 25 seconds. Literally. Nobody wants to touch your penis. Nobody will. If they do, talk to their supervisors, then their supervisors. Get all of their names. It is completely unjust and wrong for this to happen. They are using a general search used by the police, not a prison style -- squat and cough type of shit.
D) You have no idea the amount of weapons and drugs I personally have seized or seen seized from people you would not expect. And from those you would expect. And therein lies the problem.
shorter answer-- get a pat down, its not bad at all. But i bet you you won't be chosen anyways.
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On November 20 2010 14:05 GumThief wrote:
at the airport. Sure there are no body scanners, but if that really the better option?
but A) Only about 10-15% of the travelling public are chosen for body scanners.
.
Stopped right there dog because I am fairly sure you are not chosen for the body scanners, they are simply in some lines while metal detectors are in others. Correct me if I am wrong.
If they are profiling you for the scanner that is fucking hilarious and only goes a mile in showing how incompetent the TSA is, considering they do it to children and disabled people.
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On November 20 2010 14:09 Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 14:05 GumThief wrote:
at the airport. Sure there are no body scanners, but if that really the better option?
but A) Only about 10-15% of the travelling public are chosen for body scanners.
. Stopped right there dog because I am fairly sure you are not chosen for the body scanners, they are simply in some lines while metal detectors are in others. Correct me if I am wrong. If they are profiling you for the scanner that is fucking hilarious and only goes a mile in showing how incompetent the TSA is, considering they do it to children and disabled people.
Yeah, can't exactly speak for the TSA. I work in Canada under CATSA. I only assumed it would be regulated procedures since we are neighbours. Who knows.
We have metal detectors in all lines, but a bodyscanner only in one. Those people were chosen to go there however. Makes a lot more sense than just arbitrarily throwing in the masses.
if that's the case for you guys then im sorry folks :p\
edit- and hell no to children and the disabled. Disabled people and families get their own line for their convenience  Jesus we are so fucking considerate. And children are not allowed in the body scanner. Isn't that a little bit perverted to ask them to enter?
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On November 20 2010 14:14 GumThief wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 14:09 Romantic wrote:On November 20 2010 14:05 GumThief wrote:
at the airport. Sure there are no body scanners, but if that really the better option?
but A) Only about 10-15% of the travelling public are chosen for body scanners.
. Stopped right there dog because I am fairly sure you are not chosen for the body scanners, they are simply in some lines while metal detectors are in others. Correct me if I am wrong. If they are profiling you for the scanner that is fucking hilarious and only goes a mile in showing how incompetent the TSA is, considering they do it to children and disabled people. Yeah, can't exactly speak for the TSA. I work in Canada under CATSA. I only assumed it would be regulated procedures since we are neighbours. Who knows. We have metal detectors in all lines, but a bodyscanner only in one. Those people were chosen to go there however. Makes a lot more sense than just arbitrarily throwing in the masses. if that's the case for you guys then im sorry folks :p
Oh, I gotcha. I was confused because you sounded like you worked for airport security and I was fairly sure our security was much more retarded than you made it sound!  .
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On November 20 2010 14:05 GumThief wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 13:44 Ferrose wrote:On November 20 2010 13:36 Dayvan wrote:On November 20 2010 13:07 Romantic wrote:On November 20 2010 12:55 Dayvan wrote:
if you don't approve of how a system runs, you don't have to use it.
It is unfortunate you think this way. I've never understood how people go through life thinking, "Whatever the overlords throw at me, I'll just deal with it and ridicule people who desire freedom". You must live in a completely different world than the one I live in. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but I only have two things to say about this. You must live in a very socialist world because where I'm from, if people don't pay for your product then it doesn't get sold. In a capitalist society, the niche always gets filled by someone/something else that's worth your two cents. Freedom doesn't come from bitching, it comes from action. In this country action is manifested by dollar bills. How the hell am I ridiculing freedom? This whole time I've been professing my desire for the freedom to live. If I wanted to come up with some stupid naive argument blaming one source over some other source to make it sound like I cared, I would just blame the radical fundamentalist groups who caused a necessity for all of this security to begin with. Unfortunately not everyone in this country responds to reason and that's why I insist people protest on the surest way to get attention: not by denying them your confidence but by denying them your checkbook. But these scanners are mandatory. If you fly, you have to go through them. Saying "then don't use it" is like saying "then don't go anywhere ever." no they are not mandatory. you can decline and get a pat down instead. from what i've gathered they do not literally touch your junk. most people are just going on the Touch my junk video and running with it.... they stop on your lower abdomen and at your upper leg. some people are just way too sensitive. We are talking about mega-tonne 747s flying at hundreds of miles per hour above my house, my parents work, our children's school. Thousands of people a day are using these aircrafts. it better be for fucking sure safe to enter. and talk about profiling or Israeli-styled security as some have pointed out to being the better option. imagine your TSA with sub-machine guns, stopping you when you pull up in your car, stopping you when you enter, stopping you when you pick up your tickets and check your bags. All asking you the same questions, being hassled your entire time at the airport. Sure there are no body scanners, but if that really the better option? but A) Only about 10-15% of the travelling public are chosen for body scanners. B) People chosen for the bodyscan/patdowns most of the time were selected even before they reached the airport. If it happens to you once, expect it every time. You are being profiled or selected on purpose. C) Getting a pat down, if chosen, takes literally 25 seconds. Literally. Nobody wants to touch your penis. Nobody will. If they do, talk to their supervisors, then their supervisors. Get all of their names. It is completely unjust and wrong for this to happen. They are using a general search used by the police, not a prison style -- squat and cough type of shit. D) You have no idea the amount of weapons and drugs I personally have seized or seen seized from people you would not expect. And from those you would expect. And therein lies the problem. shorter answer-- get a pat down, its not bad at all. But i bet you you won't be chosen anyways.
Yes, I agree that it should be for sure safe on airplanes. But the scanners apparently aren't the way to go to accomplish that.
As for C, I have no problem getting patted down. It's happened to me many times at sporting events. And um, did I act like people wanted to touch my penis?
And as for the guy in the video, I never believed it anyway.
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On November 20 2010 14:33 Ferrose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 14:05 GumThief wrote:On November 20 2010 13:44 Ferrose wrote:On November 20 2010 13:36 Dayvan wrote:On November 20 2010 13:07 Romantic wrote:On November 20 2010 12:55 Dayvan wrote:
if you don't approve of how a system runs, you don't have to use it.
It is unfortunate you think this way. I've never understood how people go through life thinking, "Whatever the overlords throw at me, I'll just deal with it and ridicule people who desire freedom". You must live in a completely different world than the one I live in. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but I only have two things to say about this. You must live in a very socialist world because where I'm from, if people don't pay for your product then it doesn't get sold. In a capitalist society, the niche always gets filled by someone/something else that's worth your two cents. Freedom doesn't come from bitching, it comes from action. In this country action is manifested by dollar bills. How the hell am I ridiculing freedom? This whole time I've been professing my desire for the freedom to live. If I wanted to come up with some stupid naive argument blaming one source over some other source to make it sound like I cared, I would just blame the radical fundamentalist groups who caused a necessity for all of this security to begin with. Unfortunately not everyone in this country responds to reason and that's why I insist people protest on the surest way to get attention: not by denying them your confidence but by denying them your checkbook. But these scanners are mandatory. If you fly, you have to go through them. Saying "then don't use it" is like saying "then don't go anywhere ever." no they are not mandatory. you can decline and get a pat down instead. from what i've gathered they do not literally touch your junk. most people are just going on the Touch my junk video and running with it.... they stop on your lower abdomen and at your upper leg. some people are just way too sensitive. We are talking about mega-tonne 747s flying at hundreds of miles per hour above my house, my parents work, our children's school. Thousands of people a day are using these aircrafts. it better be for fucking sure safe to enter. and talk about profiling or Israeli-styled security as some have pointed out to being the better option. imagine your TSA with sub-machine guns, stopping you when you pull up in your car, stopping you when you enter, stopping you when you pick up your tickets and check your bags. All asking you the same questions, being hassled your entire time at the airport. Sure there are no body scanners, but if that really the better option? but A) Only about 10-15% of the travelling public are chosen for body scanners. B) People chosen for the bodyscan/patdowns most of the time were selected even before they reached the airport. If it happens to you once, expect it every time. You are being profiled or selected on purpose. C) Getting a pat down, if chosen, takes literally 25 seconds. Literally. Nobody wants to touch your penis. Nobody will. If they do, talk to their supervisors, then their supervisors. Get all of their names. It is completely unjust and wrong for this to happen. They are using a general search used by the police, not a prison style -- squat and cough type of shit. D) You have no idea the amount of weapons and drugs I personally have seized or seen seized from people you would not expect. And from those you would expect. And therein lies the problem. shorter answer-- get a pat down, its not bad at all. But i bet you you won't be chosen anyways. Yes, I agree that it should be for sure safe on airplanes. But the scanners apparently aren't the way to go to accomplish that. As for C, I have no problem getting patted down. It's happened to me many times at sporting events. And um, did I act like people wanted to touch my penis? And as for the guy in the video, I never believed it anyway.
no no. earlier in the thread i recall people calling patdowns "groping," or how it was inappropriate the way they were touched. Not to mention people taking that video at face value. It was just kind of.. extremely annoying seeing such ignorance. Like all of these arguments of liberties and being "free" are kind of moot when nothing THAT intrusive is happening anyways.. :\
the only argument i have against these advanced body-searches in the states, is that the same results can be achieved with a metal detector and a mandatory swab of the hands and/or bags with an explosive detection trace.
No gun or knife? CHeck. Haven't touched explosive chemicals in the last week or so? Check. peace
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On November 20 2010 14:47 GumThief wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 14:33 Ferrose wrote:On November 20 2010 14:05 GumThief wrote:On November 20 2010 13:44 Ferrose wrote:On November 20 2010 13:36 Dayvan wrote:On November 20 2010 13:07 Romantic wrote:On November 20 2010 12:55 Dayvan wrote:
if you don't approve of how a system runs, you don't have to use it.
It is unfortunate you think this way. I've never understood how people go through life thinking, "Whatever the overlords throw at me, I'll just deal with it and ridicule people who desire freedom". You must live in a completely different world than the one I live in. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but I only have two things to say about this. You must live in a very socialist world because where I'm from, if people don't pay for your product then it doesn't get sold. In a capitalist society, the niche always gets filled by someone/something else that's worth your two cents. Freedom doesn't come from bitching, it comes from action. In this country action is manifested by dollar bills. How the hell am I ridiculing freedom? This whole time I've been professing my desire for the freedom to live. If I wanted to come up with some stupid naive argument blaming one source over some other source to make it sound like I cared, I would just blame the radical fundamentalist groups who caused a necessity for all of this security to begin with. Unfortunately not everyone in this country responds to reason and that's why I insist people protest on the surest way to get attention: not by denying them your confidence but by denying them your checkbook. But these scanners are mandatory. If you fly, you have to go through them. Saying "then don't use it" is like saying "then don't go anywhere ever." no they are not mandatory. you can decline and get a pat down instead. from what i've gathered they do not literally touch your junk. most people are just going on the Touch my junk video and running with it.... they stop on your lower abdomen and at your upper leg. some people are just way too sensitive. We are talking about mega-tonne 747s flying at hundreds of miles per hour above my house, my parents work, our children's school. Thousands of people a day are using these aircrafts. it better be for fucking sure safe to enter. and talk about profiling or Israeli-styled security as some have pointed out to being the better option. imagine your TSA with sub-machine guns, stopping you when you pull up in your car, stopping you when you enter, stopping you when you pick up your tickets and check your bags. All asking you the same questions, being hassled your entire time at the airport. Sure there are no body scanners, but if that really the better option? but A) Only about 10-15% of the travelling public are chosen for body scanners. B) People chosen for the bodyscan/patdowns most of the time were selected even before they reached the airport. If it happens to you once, expect it every time. You are being profiled or selected on purpose. C) Getting a pat down, if chosen, takes literally 25 seconds. Literally. Nobody wants to touch your penis. Nobody will. If they do, talk to their supervisors, then their supervisors. Get all of their names. It is completely unjust and wrong for this to happen. They are using a general search used by the police, not a prison style -- squat and cough type of shit. D) You have no idea the amount of weapons and drugs I personally have seized or seen seized from people you would not expect. And from those you would expect. And therein lies the problem. shorter answer-- get a pat down, its not bad at all. But i bet you you won't be chosen anyways. Yes, I agree that it should be for sure safe on airplanes. But the scanners apparently aren't the way to go to accomplish that. As for C, I have no problem getting patted down. It's happened to me many times at sporting events. And um, did I act like people wanted to touch my penis? And as for the guy in the video, I never believed it anyway. no no. earlier in the thread i recall people calling patdowns "groping," or how it was inappropriate the way they were touched. Not to mention people taking that video at face value. It was just kind of.. extremely annoying seeing such ignorance. Like all of these arguments of liberties and being "free" are kind of moot when nothing THAT intrusive is happening anyways.. :\ the only argument i have against these advanced body-searches in the states, is that the same results can be achieved with a metal detector and a mandatory swab of the hands and/or bags with an explosive detection trace. No gun or knife? CHeck. Haven't touched explosive chemicals in the last week or so? Check. peace
Yeah. I don't get the intrusion thing. I guess some people are just more sensitive than I am.
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On November 20 2010 12:55 Dayvan wrote:
Okay Kriglose,
What are you, 13?
you have a point. I didn't do any research here - but neither did you apparently. This is evident in two ways: A., you took my argument at face value and dodged its meaning (aside: I see you make a habit of this by loading up on the face value of the news only to vomit all of your hard observed facts over an internet page) and B., all you had to do to see what I was talking about was to scroll up two or three posts to understand that I was clarifying someone elses argument. My actual point had nothing to do with who regulates the rule, or what the rule is about. Perhaps if you weren't out to be such an asshole you would have noticed that. Perhaps you should refer to your first quote attack on how to avoid cherry-picking people to flip shit over. I don't mind being corrected but if you were trying to "show me who's boss" I think you missed your mark on this one
Clarifying someone else's argument? More like you posted an argument without thinking about it or understanding anything about the topic at hand, so I took the time to call you out on it. The rest was just explaining the situation to you since you obviously do not know anything about it. Your arguments made no sense because they don't apply at all to this situation. You were wrong, I showed how you were wrong, get over it. If you were reading a topic to learn, then learn instead of trying to make arguments when you understand nothing about the situation. The entire point you're trying to make not only addresses nothing in the discussion, it's not even applicable at all to the topic at hand.
I've been told to refrain from personal attacks, but I'll just quickly point out the amusing irony of someone saying they "don't mind being corrected" then proceeding to accuse the other person of being an asshole in a 4 paragraph charged rant.
Also, you'd sooner support that idea than the shit I've suggested? What shit have I suggested, exactly? Please quote what I have "suggested".
On November 20 2010 13:40 SharkSpider wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Because anyone who disagrees with your political stance is a weak-willed failure who lets himself be shepherded by our evil overlords. You think that spouting the "freedom" line makes anything you say above reproach, because how can someone's argument possibly be "good" if it doesn't align perfectly with your personal philosophy? Some people don't share the same views as you do, some people put up with airport security and incompetent government because they have better things to do, not because they're apathetic, and some people understand that rights also come with responsibilities.
Maybe you live in a world where every political issue is some black and white struggle between the working class and the beaurocracy, but the rest of us who live in the real world often approach problems constructively. I've seen plenty of good arguments in this thread about why the TSA is a bad organization, why these machines aren't really as good as they're made out to be, and why the people being hired to use them are incompetent, but rarely are these arguments separated from the constant crying about rights and liberties, and the equally overblown comparisons to sexual assault and child pornography.
EDIT: Speaking of ridicule... if someone deserves to get ridiculed, it's the person who answers every question by trying to ram their "civil rights" down everyone's throats and who claims that even accepting the premise is grounds for being labeled as someone who doesn't care about freedom.
Okay so let me just get this straight here, I'm trying to grasp what you're saying. So you're basically saying since you disagree with someone's political stance, that makes the facts that they present invalid?
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Whats the deal with the first picture? Is he pissing or something? Whats all the shit coming out of his... anyways, weird.
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Krigdraw your posts Are hilarious. You have some valid points. Those scanners are def still a work in progress and remain to be seen if they are integral to our security. But hey, good thing you can flat out say no thanks! You come across a little uppity in your posts it is hard to take
It serious at times. Nevertheless still a well thought post a couple pages back.
This post however..?? Nah not so much
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Krigwin,
"What are you, a 13 year old?"
Kriglose was a joke. Sorry to see that it was lost.
"Clarifying someone else's argument? More like you posted an argument without thinking about it or understanding anything about the topic at hand, so I took the time to call you out on it."
You still sound like you haven't read it yet, but okay, I can't make you understand it.
"I've been told to refrain from personal attacks, but I'll just quickly point out the amusing irony of someone saying they "don't mind being corrected" then proceeding to accuse the other person of being an asshole in a 4 paragraph charged rant."
Yes, the irony is that you still don't understand its possible to both informed AND an asshole at the same time. Like I said, I have no problem learning what its really about from you (though I have no intention of considering anything you've said as a fact until I've heard it from a reliable source) but like most people I don't really care to take any shit.
"Also, you'd sooner support that idea than the shit I've suggested? What shit have I suggested, exactly? Please quote what I have "suggested"."
What I was referencing was this "Think of all the money sunk into all of these machines everywhere in the world, now think of how many life-saving medical treatments could be financed with that kind of money. Or food to starving people, or foreign aid to crisis zones."
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whoa guys cant we all be friends ok
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On November 20 2010 14:05 GumThief wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 13:44 Ferrose wrote:On November 20 2010 13:36 Dayvan wrote:On November 20 2010 13:07 Romantic wrote:On November 20 2010 12:55 Dayvan wrote:
if you don't approve of how a system runs, you don't have to use it.
It is unfortunate you think this way. I've never understood how people go through life thinking, "Whatever the overlords throw at me, I'll just deal with it and ridicule people who desire freedom". You must live in a completely different world than the one I live in. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but I only have two things to say about this. You must live in a very socialist world because where I'm from, if people don't pay for your product then it doesn't get sold. In a capitalist society, the niche always gets filled by someone/something else that's worth your two cents. Freedom doesn't come from bitching, it comes from action. In this country action is manifested by dollar bills. How the hell am I ridiculing freedom? This whole time I've been professing my desire for the freedom to live. If I wanted to come up with some stupid naive argument blaming one source over some other source to make it sound like I cared, I would just blame the radical fundamentalist groups who caused a necessity for all of this security to begin with. Unfortunately not everyone in this country responds to reason and that's why I insist people protest on the surest way to get attention: not by denying them your confidence but by denying them your checkbook. But these scanners are mandatory. If you fly, you have to go through them. Saying "then don't use it" is like saying "then don't go anywhere ever." no they are not mandatory. you can decline and get a pat down instead. from what i've gathered they do not literally touch your junk. most people are just going on the Touch my junk video and running with it.... they stop on your lower abdomen and at your upper leg. some people are just way too sensitive. We are talking about mega-tonne 747s flying at hundreds of miles per hour above my house, my parents work, our children's school. Thousands of people a day are using these aircrafts. it better be for fucking sure safe to enter. and talk about profiling or Israeli-styled security as some have pointed out to being the better option. imagine your TSA with sub-machine guns, stopping you when you pull up in your car, stopping you when you enter, stopping you when you pick up your tickets and check your bags. All asking you the same questions, being hassled your entire time at the airport. Sure there are no body scanners, but if that really the better option? but A) Only about 10-15% of the travelling public are chosen for body scanners. B) People chosen for the bodyscan/patdowns most of the time were selected even before they reached the airport. If it happens to you once, expect it every time. You are being profiled or selected on purpose. C) Getting a pat down, if chosen, takes literally 25 seconds. Literally. Nobody wants to touch your penis. Nobody will. If they do, talk to their supervisors, then their supervisors. Get all of their names. It is completely unjust and wrong for this to happen. They are using a general search used by the police, not a prison style -- squat and cough type of shit. D) You have no idea the amount of weapons and drugs I personally have seized or seen seized from people you would not expect. And from those you would expect. And therein lies the problem. shorter answer-- get a pat down, its not bad at all. But i bet you you won't be chosen anyways.
This has got to be the best reply i have seen in this thread.
in response to
A) Yes its true not all lanes have scanners, there isn't enough money or room for them to be at all lanes.
B) i would have to disagree with. There really isn't much profiling, Cat X airports have such a high throughput there isn't time to do it to a degree. My Airport has between 30,000-60,000 people going through security in a single day.
C) Pat downs are so over dramatic in the media. It's not like they have just started them. People with a defibrillator or pace maker don't go through a metal detector so they have been getting pat downs for ever. There hasn't been an issue with them at all. It's all the cry babies of today who never had to go through it.
D) It's kind of funny how many gun owners "forget" they had one in their bag. Can't use profiling here, every race, age group and sex is guilty here.
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On November 20 2010 17:31 wrath76 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 14:05 GumThief wrote:On November 20 2010 13:44 Ferrose wrote:On November 20 2010 13:36 Dayvan wrote:On November 20 2010 13:07 Romantic wrote:On November 20 2010 12:55 Dayvan wrote:
if you don't approve of how a system runs, you don't have to use it.
It is unfortunate you think this way. I've never understood how people go through life thinking, "Whatever the overlords throw at me, I'll just deal with it and ridicule people who desire freedom". You must live in a completely different world than the one I live in. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but I only have two things to say about this. You must live in a very socialist world because where I'm from, if people don't pay for your product then it doesn't get sold. In a capitalist society, the niche always gets filled by someone/something else that's worth your two cents. Freedom doesn't come from bitching, it comes from action. In this country action is manifested by dollar bills. How the hell am I ridiculing freedom? This whole time I've been professing my desire for the freedom to live. If I wanted to come up with some stupid naive argument blaming one source over some other source to make it sound like I cared, I would just blame the radical fundamentalist groups who caused a necessity for all of this security to begin with. Unfortunately not everyone in this country responds to reason and that's why I insist people protest on the surest way to get attention: not by denying them your confidence but by denying them your checkbook. But these scanners are mandatory. If you fly, you have to go through them. Saying "then don't use it" is like saying "then don't go anywhere ever." no they are not mandatory. you can decline and get a pat down instead. from what i've gathered they do not literally touch your junk. most people are just going on the Touch my junk video and running with it.... they stop on your lower abdomen and at your upper leg. some people are just way too sensitive. We are talking about mega-tonne 747s flying at hundreds of miles per hour above my house, my parents work, our children's school. Thousands of people a day are using these aircrafts. it better be for fucking sure safe to enter. and talk about profiling or Israeli-styled security as some have pointed out to being the better option. imagine your TSA with sub-machine guns, stopping you when you pull up in your car, stopping you when you enter, stopping you when you pick up your tickets and check your bags. All asking you the same questions, being hassled your entire time at the airport. Sure there are no body scanners, but if that really the better option? but A) Only about 10-15% of the travelling public are chosen for body scanners. B) People chosen for the bodyscan/patdowns most of the time were selected even before they reached the airport. If it happens to you once, expect it every time. You are being profiled or selected on purpose. C) Getting a pat down, if chosen, takes literally 25 seconds. Literally. Nobody wants to touch your penis. Nobody will. If they do, talk to their supervisors, then their supervisors. Get all of their names. It is completely unjust and wrong for this to happen. They are using a general search used by the police, not a prison style -- squat and cough type of shit. D) You have no idea the amount of weapons and drugs I personally have seized or seen seized from people you would not expect. And from those you would expect. And therein lies the problem. shorter answer-- get a pat down, its not bad at all. But i bet you you won't be chosen anyways. This has got to be the best reply i have seen in this thread. in response to A) Yes its true not all lanes have scanners, there isn't enough money or room for them to be at all lanes. B) i would have to disagree with. There really isn't much profiling, Cat X airports have such a high throughput there isn't time to do it to a degree. My Airport has between 30,000-60,000 people going through security in a single day. C) Pat downs are so over dramatic in the media. It's not like they have just started them. People with a defibrillator or pace maker don't go through a metal detector so they have been getting pat downs for ever. There hasn't been an issue with them at all. It's all the cry babies of today who never had to go through it. D) It's kind of funny how many gun owners "forget" they had one in their bag. Can't use profiling here, every race, age group and sex is guilty here.
They haven't been doing the patdowns forever because the patdowns that people are complaining about are under some "new guideliens" that are more invasive. There have been a lot of reports recently of TSA agents touching genitals or even putting their hands down waistbands. The head of the TSA just admitted they are more invasive than fliers are used to so I doubt these procedures have been going on forever.
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Blackjack is correct above.
The Freedon Fondle is the new "enchanced" pat down technique enacted by the TSA end of October/beginning of November.
The CATSA in Canada still uses the "normal" patdown, which I've been subjected to numerous times. Its quick and non-concerning to me overall. They touch you, perhaps make quick contact with more...sensitive...areas with the back of a hand, done.
The Freedon Fondle was all but designed to get people to use the stupid nudie scanner...why have your shit molested when you can just go through this virtual strip search. But, as far as I'm concerned, BOTH are a complete violation of our civil rights. This is, constitutionally, "Unreasonable Search".
I want safe air travel. I want security. But I am not willing to trade my rights for it. The Israel system...yes, armed guards everywhere questioning your shit...by people hella trained to notice if you're acting in any way out of the ordinary. It can be extremely uncomfortable going through Israeli checkpoints...but their system is exceptionally fast, non-invasive and bottom line...it works. One handgun has made it through security, once. No plane leaving Tel Aviv has ever been involved in any act of terrorism. And nobody has to go through humiliating and unreasonable searches without probable cause.
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I can agree with that. Talking to my father, and I'd have to agree, our culture is way too different. Imagine the headlines if they decided to switch over to Israeli style security. People would probably not be to keen about armed guards interrogating them several times along the way. Personally though I think it's worth the discussion if they are serious about airport security.
Another point is that I don't think anybody would be comfortable in giving the TSA, or CATSA for that matter, the authority to carry weapons and be in charge of any type of intelligence. If they were to make the switch, it would probably have to be handed over to the army or rCMP. A high federal police force would be up to that job-- not the TS mo fucking A.
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EPT
