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*sighs* I'm frightened at what is going on, but more frightened that people would even try to rationalize it. Of course your history books won't tell you the god-awful truths, so talk to someone's grandparents who survived the Holocaust and then come back and post "hey, it's nothing."
I can't believe you'd be so petty as to demean the atrocity of the holocaust by comparing it to full body xrays in airports.
We all know your looking to vindicate your dull lives in some middle class suburbia by making up fantastical stories of oppression and repression, to impose some narrative onto an otherwise average life, through stories of vast conspiracy and exploitation.
You don't know what oppression means. I doubt you even know what hunger means.
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On November 21 2010 12:35 Half wrote:
So in other words you were referring to a comment which you intentionally took out of context to make it sound really pathetic, and you really are a petty little kid fixated with convenience.
KK BRAH
It was taken out of context. It was quoted and replied to in a general sense with a criticism of the principle. I stopped talking about specifics a long time ago. You brought up specifics in conjunction with more important issues to minimize a general application, which is silly.
Why taking things out of context is always thought of negatively is strange, considering you need to be able to isolate ideas in order to have a civilized conversation.
If you think that the principle of accepting a system simply because it exists is really pathetic when applied generally, then we agree. If not, we disagree.
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On November 21 2010 12:45 Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 12:35 Half wrote:
So in other words you were referring to a comment which you intentionally took out of context to make it sound really pathetic, and you really are a petty little kid fixated with convenience.
KK BRAH
It was taken out of context. It was quoted and replied to in a general sense with a criticism of the principle. I stopped talking about specifics a long time ago. You brought up specifics in conjunction with more important issues to minimize a general application, which is silly. Why taking things out of context is always thought of negatively is strange, considering you need to be able to isolate ideas in order to have a civilized conversation. If you think that the principle of accepting a system simply because it exists is really pathetic when applied generally, then we agree. If not, we disagree.
What we disagree with aren't the principal, but the application. Assuming we could change everything simply by wishing it, then perhaps your view would hold truer. But that isn't how the world works. We have to choose which hills to die on, so to speak, and by comparing airport security in the U.S. to say, the holocaust, well, its nothing short of petty. Every change comes with sacrifice. As I said, what will you sacrifice? The answer is nothing. You aren't willing to sacrifice national security, and you aren't willing to pay 100$ more on travel feels (You, as in, as a collective of consumers, not just you romantic  ), so stop bitching without direction or aim, but rather, just to bitch, because it feels good, it feels good to pretend this is a big conspiracy against the public.
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It's security theater and absolute bullshit.
The only intelligent thing the TSA has done since 9/11 is put a locked door and gun in the cockpit. Fucking simple and effective. A single wacko carries plastic explosive in his pants, and now we need to take nude pictures of 300 million people. 10x3 ounce containers of liquid are OK, but 1x4 container is banned.
If a few, determined people put a little bit of thought into it, they could easily take down an airplane. Obviously the same goes for any other form of mass transportation. Bus, train, metro - all have ZERO security, but no attacks.
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On November 21 2010 12:44 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
*sighs* I'm frightened at what is going on, but more frightened that people would even try to rationalize it. Of course your history books won't tell you the god-awful truths, so talk to someone's grandparents who survived the Holocaust and then come back and post "hey, it's nothing."
I can't believe you'd be so petty as to demean the atrocity of the holocaust by comparing it to full body xrays in airports. We all know your looking to vindicate your dull lives in some middle class suburbia by making up fantastical stories of oppression and repression, to impose some narrative onto an otherwise average life, through stories of vast conspiracy and exploitation. You don't know what oppression means. I doubt you even know what hunger means.
Limitation of one's rights is something to be wary of, if not afraid, no matter the scale. Why does this bother you so much that you attempt to ridicule the guy?
Any unjustified limitation of freedom would be analogous to holocaust; why not? You think holocaust happened overnight? Freedoms were taken away bit by bit during the nazi regime, and it was full blown barbarism when the war broke out.
If your life is meaningless and not in need of a narrative, feel free to get lost in oblivion with your unvoiced opinions and condescending rhetoric but don't ridicule someone who expresses their own opinion. This is a subtle form of oppression as well.
Inb4 'you dont know what oppression means, blabla' lol
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40291856/ns/travel-news
TSA agents ignore bladder-cancer survivor's repeated warnings about his condition, grope him, break his urine bag, leave him covered in piss and then act like nothing happened.
![[image loading]](http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/1737/freel.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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On November 21 2010 12:44 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
*sighs* I'm frightened at what is going on, but more frightened that people would even try to rationalize it. Of course your history books won't tell you the god-awful truths, so talk to someone's grandparents who survived the Holocaust and then come back and post "hey, it's nothing."
I can't believe you'd be so petty as to demean the atrocity of the holocaust by comparing it to full body xrays in airports. We all know your looking to vindicate your dull lives in some middle class suburbia by making up fantastical stories of oppression and repression, to impose some narrative onto an otherwise average life, through stories of vast conspiracy and exploitation. You don't know what oppression means. I doubt you even know what hunger means.
GJ reading only the last paragraph that was an aside, instead of all the good points arkansassy made...
looks like you just picked on that part of the post and ignored everything else lofl. You do realize that airports have done this bullshit searching and seizure stuff for years now right? More or less randomly, most of the time racially.
And OMG, *HOLDS THE ENTIRE ROOM HOSTAGE WITH A NAIL FILE* they'd detain you for that as a deadly weapon lofl.
I dun think you realize what's slowly happened to our basic freedoms over the course of the last 10 years.
Anyways, all this airport security business is absolutely ridiculous. It has been...since 9/11,
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On November 21 2010 12:53 mikado wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 12:44 Half wrote:
*sighs* I'm frightened at what is going on, but more frightened that people would even try to rationalize it. Of course your history books won't tell you the god-awful truths, so talk to someone's grandparents who survived the Holocaust and then come back and post "hey, it's nothing."
I can't believe you'd be so petty as to demean the atrocity of the holocaust by comparing it to full body xrays in airports. We all know your looking to vindicate your dull lives in some middle class suburbia by making up fantastical stories of oppression and repression, to impose some narrative onto an otherwise average life, through stories of vast conspiracy and exploitation. You don't know what oppression means. I doubt you even know what hunger means. Limitation of one's rights is something to be wary of, if not afraid, no matter the scale. Why does this bother you so much that you attempt to ridicule the guy? Any unjustified limitation of freedom would be analogous to holocaust; why not? You think holocaust happened overnight? Freedoms were taken away bit by bit during the nazi regime, and it was full blown barbarism when the war broke out. If your life is meaningless and not in need of a narrative, feel free to get lost in oblivion with your unvoiced opinions and condescending rhetoric but don't ridicule someone who expresses their own opinion. This is a subtle form of oppression as well. Inb4 'you dont know what oppression means, blabla' lol
It is indeed something to be wary of. I responded Krigwin list of complaints without any pretense or insult. However, that isn't what he did, so I'd appreciate if you wouldn't take my words out of context. Expressing an opinion is not the same as sensationalism. If expressing them as they are isn't strong enough, then perhaps they aren't strong enough. By your logic, healthcare is deathpanels and obama is Hitler, simply by drawing a few easily observed similarities.
In fact, by your logic, I could call you Hitler because how you "Use words which have powerful public resonance to spread fear and sway opinion". Because hitler did that too!.
As you can see, that would be fucking bullshit.
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On November 21 2010 12:40 Arkansassy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 14:05 GumThief wrote:On November 20 2010 13:44 Ferrose wrote:On November 20 2010 13:36 Dayvan wrote:On November 20 2010 13:07 Romantic wrote:On November 20 2010 12:55 Dayvan wrote:
if you don't approve of how a system runs, you don't have to use it.
It is unfortunate you think this way. I've never understood how people go through life thinking, "Whatever the overlords throw at me, I'll just deal with it and ridicule people who desire freedom". You must live in a completely different world than the one I live in. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but I only have two things to say about this. You must live in a very socialist world because where I'm from, if people don't pay for your product then it doesn't get sold. In a capitalist society, the niche always gets filled by someone/something else that's worth your two cents. Freedom doesn't come from bitching, it comes from action. In this country action is manifested by dollar bills. How the hell am I ridiculing freedom? This whole time I've been professing my desire for the freedom to live. If I wanted to come up with some stupid naive argument blaming one source over some other source to make it sound like I cared, I would just blame the radical fundamentalist groups who caused a necessity for all of this security to begin with. Unfortunately not everyone in this country responds to reason and that's why I insist people protest on the surest way to get attention: not by denying them your confidence but by denying them your checkbook. But these scanners are mandatory. If you fly, you have to go through them. Saying "then don't use it" is like saying "then don't go anywhere ever." no they are not mandatory. you can decline and get a pat down instead. from what i've gathered they do not literally touch your junk. most people are just going on the Touch my junk video and running with it.... they stop on your lower abdomen and at your upper leg. some people are just way too sensitive. We are talking about mega-tonne 747s flying at hundreds of miles per hour above my house, my parents work, our children's school. Thousands of people a day are using these aircrafts. it better be for fucking sure safe to enter. and talk about profiling or Israeli-styled security as some have pointed out to being the better option. imagine your TSA with sub-machine guns, stopping you when you pull up in your car, stopping you when you enter, stopping you when you pick up your tickets and check your bags. All asking you the same questions, being hassled your entire time at the airport. Sure there are no body scanners, but if that really the better option? but A) Only about 10-15% of the travelling public are chosen for body scanners. B) People chosen for the bodyscan/patdowns most of the time were selected even before they reached the airport. If it happens to you once, expect it every time. You are being profiled or selected on purpose. C) Getting a pat down, if chosen, takes literally 25 seconds. Literally. Nobody wants to touch your penis. Nobody will. If they do, talk to their supervisors, then their supervisors. Get all of their names. It is completely unjust and wrong for this to happen. They are using a general search used by the police, not a prison style -- squat and cough type of shit. D) You have no idea the amount of weapons and drugs I personally have seized or seen seized from people you would not expect. And from those you would expect. And therein lies the problem. shorter answer-- get a pat down, its not bad at all. But i bet you you won't be chosen anyways. So, according to: A) Only certain people are chosen to suffer this unconstitutional humiliation? How, may I ask, is that protecting homeland security when, according to your statistics, 85-90% of John Q Public walks right past the guards? B) I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Big Brother is - and has been for years - watching us. And the citizens of the United States (too many of them) follow blindly believing whatever the government brainwashes them to believe. C) By "nobody" do you mean that sicko who can't get a job as a law enforcement officer so, they get hired by private security companies? D) We know that a granny's nail file is considered a weapon, oh and the knife that grandpa uses to whittle away at a piece of wood is a deadly weapon as well. *sighs* I'm frightened at what is going on, but more frightened that people would even try to rationalize it. Of course your history books won't tell you the god-awful truths, so talk to someone's grandparents who survived the Holocaust and then come back and post "hey, it's nothing."
A) Obviously the public is subject to airport security procedure. They simply do not walk through, no. Travel and you will understand said procedures.
B) .....
C) No i mean, from what I have been taught in Canada, you do not touch a persons genitals. It's pretty fucked up to do so, as I believe they do not have the right. IF they say they are going to, stop them, tell them to call the police over, and have them explain to the police officer what suspicion they have in your groin. Then if the cop does not laugh in their face, have the police offer conduct the search. Then press charges.. ehehe nah i dunoo.
And i'm not sure of your statement you make about "sickos" so I will leave it alone. And AGAIN, the body scanner is not mandatory.
D) No, a nail file is not a weapon. What we HAVE learnt here is your complete lack of knowledge in this subject. What is with people just spewing shit everywhere? Get down off of your cross and stop being such a pussy about everything. Nobody cares about you when you go through an airport. You are just a random passenger that we want to clear properly so we can move on to the next one.
And chill with the holocaust stuff. You are so way off it's almost comical. Hey Mom I heard you got pat down at the airport, how was it?? OH son, have you ever heard of the holocaust? God you are dim dude.
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On November 21 2010 12:50 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 12:45 Romantic wrote:On November 21 2010 12:35 Half wrote:
So in other words you were referring to a comment which you intentionally took out of context to make it sound really pathetic, and you really are a petty little kid fixated with convenience.
KK BRAH
It was taken out of context. It was quoted and replied to in a general sense with a criticism of the principle. I stopped talking about specifics a long time ago. You brought up specifics in conjunction with more important issues to minimize a general application, which is silly. Why taking things out of context is always thought of negatively is strange, considering you need to be able to isolate ideas in order to have a civilized conversation. If you think that the principle of accepting a system simply because it exists is really pathetic when applied generally, then we agree. If not, we disagree. What we disagree with aren't the principal, but the application. Assuming we could change everything simply by wishing it, then perhaps your view would hold truer. But that isn't how the world works. We have to choose which hills to die on, so to speak, and by comparing airport security in the U.S. to say, the holocaust, well, its nothing short of petty. Every change comes with sacrifice. As I said, what will you sacrifice? The answer is nothing. You aren't willing to sacrifice national security, and you aren't willing to pay 100$ more on travel feels (You, as in, as a collective of consumers, not just you romantic ), so stop bitching without direction or aim, but rather, just to bitch, because it feels good, it feels good to pretend this is a big conspiracy against the public.
I do not think it is rambling because it feels good! Individualism, democracy, self management, anti-authority etc, apply to smaller situations like airport security just as they do to larger ones like your Holocausts and your Great Leap Forwards. Sort of like stealing candy or Madoff's ponzi scheme; same thing, different scales. I think your anti-Romantic anger is unjustified on the grounds am I discussing applications of an idea\principle, not necessarily comparing one outcome of its application to another outcome.
I do think short term, but I mostly left it for others in the thread to talk about the specifics of TSA "security"  and make economic or practical arguments. I mean, I could point out that terrorists would just move on to buses or trains even if you 100% foiled every attempt to stop them from blowing up planes (and thus specific prevention is nearly impossible), but that doesn't make anyone think about the top down and unaccountable practices of unelected TSA bureaucrats, or even authority in general.
If I got someone to think about the process that results in these sorts of measures I think I was a success. I didn't feel like discussing the conclusion is particularly important, the process is.
As for sacrificing, if the majority of the people involved in airline travel had debated and agreed to certain security measures, I would go with that. As it is your opinion is already sacrificed to TSA, so as it comes to decision making power, ours is already sacrificed. I would make a spirited case against your nakey scanners, but I would accept their implementation. Worth pointing out that polls show I would probably lose (55 CNN Poll - 80% CBS Poll approve of the scanners, albeit with no debate) but I am still very happy to have that decision because I am a principled person.
I would like to distance myself from the 9\11 was an inside job guy, though... it reminds me of how Michael Savage always has on crazy socialist callers who say nobody should make over 100,000$ and he gets them to admit it by pressing them a little bit, then uses that to show how silly anyone who is left of center-right is >.<. Bad examples, man, bad examples.
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On November 21 2010 12:02 Half wrote:
I get why your angry, but what do you propose in place of this? We either hire better TSA personnel, which costs money, which is going to come from ticket prices or taxes, or we laxen security to pre 9/11 standards.
Well, I'm not an airport security expert, nor am I a counter-terrorism specialist, but here are my thoughts:
First thing is we need less reactive security measures (and that is purely what this is, a completely reactionary precaution that wouldn't even have stopped the attacks that inspired it in the first place, I'm speaking of the Christmas underwear bomber of course), and more general security measures. Trying to x-ray and strip search every man, grandma, and 4-year old child going on vacation for the holidays on the infinitesimal chance that one of them happens to be carrying liquid explosives is grossly inefficient and a violation of basic freedoms. Trying instead to profile, investigate, and catch terrorists when they attempt to obtain these liquid explosives in the first place however, is how counter-terrorism is done.
As for airport security in particular, there's really no great answer to this as you're either going to piss off the small-government anti-statist crowd or the pro-government general welfare crowd. Either let the private airlines police their own and choose their own methods for protecting their own property and customers, or have a more elite force (not the TSA) that uses proper counter-terrorism techniques like the Israelis use, ie behavior profiling (not racial profiling) and anti-explosive sniffing technology. A simple metal detector and residue test would substitute quite nicely for these scanner machines and not even come close to violating the 4th Amendment. You speak of the costs, well these machines cost $250k a pop, so clearly the funding is already there.
But no matter what you're going to have to come to the point where when airport security is bulletproof the terrorists are just going to move on to different targets, and you cannot realistically police and protect every single method of transportation and high-population venue. General counter-terrorism tactics are always going to be more efficient than reactive measures, and while it makes sense to have some reactive precautions in place, like the aforementioned sniffer and metal detector checks, we must always be certain that their benefits outweigh the drawbacks. These scanner machines, even if they worked, which they don't, are simply too problematic and unethical to warrant such widespread mandated use. The people in this thread trying to argue in favor of them are really trying to expand the topic beyond these machines and turning it into some kind of heated civil liberties debate when really it's a simple issue of overpriced and useless machinery that has the side effect of violating people's rights. Even if you astonishingly have no issue with these scanners despite their worthlessness, just the issue of who is using them should be cause enough to be against them. I cannot honestly see how anyone can disagree with this.
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[QUOTE]On November 21 2010 14:21 Krigwin wrote:
[QUOTE]On November 21 2010 12:02 Half wrote:
I get why your angry, but what do you propose in place of this? We either hire better TSA personnel, which costs money, which is going to come from ticket prices or taxes, or we laxen security to pre 9/11 standards. [/QUOTE]
Well, I'm not an airport security expert, nor am I a counter-terrorism specialist, but here are my thoughts:
First thing is we need less reactive security measures (and that is purely what this is, a completely reactionary precaution that wouldn't even have stopped the attacks that inspired it in the first place, I'm speaking of the Christmas underwear bomber of course), and more general security measures. Trying to x-ray and strip search every man, grandma, and 4-year old child going on vacation for the holidays on the infinitesimal chance that one of them happens to be carrying liquid explosives is grossly inefficient and a violation of basic freedoms. Trying instead to profile, investigate, and catch terrorists when they attempt to obtain these liquid explosives in the first place however, is how counter-terrorism is done.
As for airport security in particular, there's really no great answer to this as you're either going to piss off the small-government anti-statist crowd or the pro-government general welfare crowd. Either let the private airlines police their own and choose their own methods for protecting their own property and customers, or have a more elite force (not the TSA) that uses proper counter-terrorism techniques like the Israelis use, ie behavior profiling (not racial profiling) and anti-explosive sniffing technology. A simple metal detector and residue test would substitute quite nicely for these scanner machines and not even come close to violating the 4th Amendment. You speak of the costs, well these machines cost $250k a pop, so clearly the funding is already there.
Really well said and I couldn't agree more. And yes, earlier in this shitstorm I proposed a metal detector and explosives trace technique that we employ in Canada. Great minds my friend.
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On November 21 2010 12:53 LxRogue wrote:
It's security theater and absolute bullshit.
The only intelligent thing the TSA has done since 9/11 is put a locked door and gun in the cockpit. Fucking simple and effective. A single wacko carries plastic explosive in his pants, and now we need to take nude pictures of 300 million people. 10x3 ounce containers of liquid are OK, but 1x4 container is banned.
If a few, determined people put a little bit of thought into it, they could easily take down an airplane. Obviously the same goes for any other form of mass transportation. Bus, train, metro - all have ZERO security, but no attacks.
I love how your perfectly reasonable comment was completely ignored in favor of attacking those who agree but have poor reasons xD
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On November 21 2010 15:02 Kimaker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 12:53 LxRogue wrote:
It's security theater and absolute bullshit.
The only intelligent thing the TSA has done since 9/11 is put a locked door and gun in the cockpit. Fucking simple and effective. A single wacko carries plastic explosive in his pants, and now we need to take nude pictures of 300 million people. 10x3 ounce containers of liquid are OK, but 1x4 container is banned.
If a few, determined people put a little bit of thought into it, they could easily take down an airplane. Obviously the same goes for any other form of mass transportation. Bus, train, metro - all have ZERO security, but no attacks. I love how your perfectly reasonable comment was completely ignored in favor of attacking those who agree but have poor reasons xD
This entire thread is a joke man. Rogue has a really good point but people like crying about anything they can find. I'm sure I could find plenty of ways to put something destructive into a tiny bottle of "lotion" and stil lcrash the plane.... Saddest thing is that only major airports adhere stringently to these rules, I walked through a Monterey airport with shampoo conditioner, the big bottles because I had no idea people got butthurt over it. Was in school and went through boot camp at the time so I practically lived under a rock. They didn't care at all they were ok sure go through, then when I had to make a connector flight and had to goback thru security they were like whoa no way. I was like I just got off a plane with this whats the point?
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I agree that this is ridiculous. But not because of a fricking x-ray....
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On November 21 2010 13:03 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 12:53 mikado wrote:On November 21 2010 12:44 Half wrote:
*sighs* I'm frightened at what is going on, but more frightened that people would even try to rationalize it. Of course your history books won't tell you the god-awful truths, so talk to someone's grandparents who survived the Holocaust and then come back and post "hey, it's nothing."
I can't believe you'd be so petty as to demean the atrocity of the holocaust by comparing it to full body xrays in airports. We all know your looking to vindicate your dull lives in some middle class suburbia by making up fantastical stories of oppression and repression, to impose some narrative onto an otherwise average life, through stories of vast conspiracy and exploitation. You don't know what oppression means. I doubt you even know what hunger means. Limitation of one's rights is something to be wary of, if not afraid, no matter the scale. Why does this bother you so much that you attempt to ridicule the guy? Any unjustified limitation of freedom would be analogous to holocaust; why not? You think holocaust happened overnight? Freedoms were taken away bit by bit during the nazi regime, and it was full blown barbarism when the war broke out. If your life is meaningless and not in need of a narrative, feel free to get lost in oblivion with your unvoiced opinions and condescending rhetoric but don't ridicule someone who expresses their own opinion. This is a subtle form of oppression as well. Inb4 'you dont know what oppression means, blabla' lol It is indeed something to be wary of. I responded Krigwin list of complaints without any pretense or insult. However, that isn't what he did, so I'd appreciate if you wouldn't take my words out of context. Expressing an opinion is not the same as sensationalism. If expressing them as they are isn't strong enough, then perhaps they aren't strong enough. By your logic, healthcare is deathpanels and obama is Hitler, simply by drawing a few easily observed similarities. In fact, by your logic, I could call you Hitler because how you "Use words which have powerful public resonance to spread fear and sway opinion". Because hitler did that too!. As you can see, that would be fucking bullshit.
You call me hitler because I go against limitation of freedom on unjustified means?
What are you smoking? Lol don't let them catch you on the nude scanner. Trolling hard I see.
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Couldn't care less :D, im no different than any other human being, if it helps security to make travelling safer, I'm fine with it, besides, nobody forces you to fly ^_^
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There's a reason it's called security theater.
It does jack shit to keep you safe. Name a single terrorist that the TSA has caught. One. A single one, in the 10 years of their operations.
It takes your time and your dignity, and your tax money too.
Why is there any argument about this at all?
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i attended a lecture about the physics behind this, people are being really snooty about it "invading their privacy" but the same technology is used in shopping malls to find out what size clothes you fit. Apparently thats ok, but trying to stop terrorists? nah we will pass on that one....
it annoys me!
edit:its not x rays(forgotten what type of wave) and its hardly nude photos, just a rough shape to check everything is normal, during the lecture they also showed the same technology that had an AI that would recognise weapons for explosives.
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GumThief: Canada's air security is awesome. Fast, efficient. I've gone through patdowns, and pretty much get the explosives test every time since I fly with a ton of electronics. Always polite & professional.
Would be FAR better than the TSA.
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EPT
