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2008 US Presidential Election - Page 63

Forum Index > General Forum
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boghat
Profile Joined January 2007
United States2109 Posts
October 30 2008 04:07 GMT
#1241
On October 30 2008 11:22 MYM.Testie wrote:
I'm scared to watch it incase it really doesn't inspire - inform me and is just fluff.
Someone with more stones watch it >=[

It's just what you would expect. On an unrelated note, is it gay to want to suck Obama's penis? Cuz I'm not gay.
D10
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Brazil3409 Posts
October 30 2008 04:24 GMT
#1242
On October 30 2008 11:22 MYM.Testie wrote:
I'm scared to watch it incase it really doesn't inspire - inform me and is just fluff.
Someone with more stones watch it >=[


I watched it and enjoyed but all information it gives is already known, what is interesting is some fluffly comments about his life.

And yes i thought it was inspiring.
" We are not humans having spiritual experiences. - We are spirits having human experiences." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
Savio
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1850 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-30 05:18:00
October 30 2008 04:59 GMT
#1243
On October 30 2008 11:34 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2008 11:30 HnR)hT wrote:
On October 30 2008 11:06 Mindcrime wrote:
On October 30 2008 10:15 HnR)hT wrote:
And if we are far-right, what does that make Russia - a country that does have a flat tax?


I don't know what that makes Russia, but the killing of journalists who criticize the government makes it pretty damn far to the right.

Just like USSR?


yes

To quote Karl Hess...

“Power, concentrated in few hands, is the dominant historic characteristic of what most people, in most times, have considered the political and economic right wing."

“The far left, as far as you can get away from the right, would logically represent the opposite tendency and, in fact, has done just that throughout history. The left has been the side of politics and economics that opposes the concentration of power and wealth and, instead, advocates and works toward the distribution of power into the maximum number of hands."

“The attitude on that farthest left toward law and order was summed up by an early French anarchist, Proudhon, who said that ‘order is the daughter of and not the mother of liberty.’ Let people be absolutely free, says this farthest of the far, far left (the left that Communism regularly denounces as too left; Lenin called it ‘infantile left’). "



I don't know about this guy, but my own personal view of left vs. right is a comparison of the size and role of government.

Anything that makes the government larger or more powerful is left and anything that makes it small is right.

So communism, socialism, liberalism, naziism--they all have a powerful state (I'm talking reality rather than the "theoretical ideal" which we have never and will never see").

As you go to the right, you have conservatism, then libertarianism and finally anarchy.

So America is farther to the right than Europe because by and large we have LESS government regulation, LESS government expenditures, LOWER taxes etc. Europe has a view of a more active role of government in the economy, health care, education, and everything else (these are generalities here--I'm not citing specific countries).

Now, this is not the definition that political scientists use, but this is how I view it.

I think Hitler was as far to the left as Stalin was and as far as Saddam was.

Neither extreme is good...but I am glad I am a "right thinker". We don't need more government controlling us.

EDIT: Didn't read the article, but first sentence from Wikipedia on "Right Wing Politics":


"In politics, right-wing, the political right, and the Right are positions that seek limited government and free markets."
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. – Winston Churchill
Savio
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1850 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-30 05:20:21
October 30 2008 05:16 GMT
#1244

Oh, and someone mentioned the government killing journalists that criticize them. According to my definition, that is an overreach of government power and therefore very "Left".

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. – Winston Churchill
D10
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Brazil3409 Posts
October 30 2008 05:22 GMT
#1245
LOL Savio that really cracked me up.

Lets elect republicans then because we will be on the way to anarchy!
" We are not humans having spiritual experiences. - We are spirits having human experiences." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
NovaTheFeared
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States7232 Posts
October 30 2008 05:29 GMT
#1246
Republicans don't advocate anarchy. Just less government (or at least they used to, before Bush).
日本語が分かりますか
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
October 30 2008 05:32 GMT
#1247
facepalming so hard right now.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10574 Posts
October 30 2008 05:49 GMT
#1248
'I don't pay attention to Presidential polls, I count lawn signs to see who's winning. So far by my count our next President is going to be somebody named Mr. Foreclosure. Anyone heard of him?'

Lol
MyLostTemple *
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States2921 Posts
October 30 2008 05:59 GMT
#1249
savio you're way off there =[
Follow me on twitter: CallMeTasteless
Savio
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1850 Posts
October 30 2008 06:56 GMT
#1250
I think I hurt some tender feelings of those who want "Left" to sound like warmth and happiness and "Right" to sound like the screeching of train tracks.

Of course I already stated that this was my personal view rather than an independent fact so I don't have to defend it.

The danger comes when we try to label one party as consistently "right" or "left". The GOP according to this definition is actually more to the left than the dems on military spending since that expands the size of government.

I apologize to the "Leftists" who want to expand the size/power of government but still want the "Right" to be the side labeled as the dictators. I know you guys have tender feelings.
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. – Winston Churchill
Savio
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1850 Posts
October 30 2008 07:00 GMT
#1251

/waits for better definition of Left and Right

No copy and paste! Lets hear you own thoughts.
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. – Winston Churchill
D10
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Brazil3409 Posts
October 30 2008 08:03 GMT
#1252
Every since the left fixed the economy in Brazil and basically did all that the right did but better I came to the conclusion that

Left = the guys that dont hold majority of power and come as the "off" guys

and right = the status quo in most matters, improve whats there, minor plans, nothing big and fancy when it comes to social matters
" We are not humans having spiritual experiences. - We are spirits having human experiences." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
October 30 2008 09:11 GMT
#1253


Of course I already stated that this was my personal view rather than an independent fact so I don't have to defend it.

so you do not object that your opinion is bullshit?

+ Show Spoiler +
the left has an interesting relationship with government. the instrumental appreciation of government mechanisms is a pragmatic adaptation taken up not because of ideological affinity with the state, but for the achievement of social objectives seen as untenable in any other way. so to characterise the left as pro government is a mistake of historical innocence, and perhaps a testament to the dominance of the planning debate in economics between orthodox socialists and free marketers. there, the debate is one of government vs nongovernment, however, again, the problem of government is a pragmatic and instrumental one. the left's basic concern has always been framed in terms of social situations, whether it is emancipatory or welfare themed. insofar as workers in the social sciences are prompted to strive for normative evaluation, and keep an eye out for doing things better, i'd say the entire project could be called leftist by aspiration.

ironically, some of the most prominent critiques of bureaucracy have come from the left, and these feature concerns that would be understandable by the liberal right. for example, critical social theory's concern with instrumental reason as one defining feature of modernity draws heavily from the operation of bureaucratic government and the logics at work there. the appeal to liberty resonates with the left well. but of course, for someone who understands politics through caricatures, this does not matter.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10876 Posts
October 30 2008 09:19 GMT
#1254
I'm exagerating here but actually *modern* left and right is kinda like this:

Righ:
Isolationist, low goverment controll, no/low wealth redistribution.

Left:
Rather "Open boarder", Govermentcontroll were it makes sense (electricity, trains - stuff like this) to assure that these things work, high wealth redistribution.


Obama and McCain are both Rightwing basically everywhere in the world except the USA...
Physician *
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States4146 Posts
October 30 2008 11:00 GMT
#1255


obama/mccan't poll in wow reals with race stats
"I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...."
The Storyteller
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
Singapore2486 Posts
October 30 2008 12:00 GMT
#1256
On October 30 2008 13:59 Savio wrote:
I don't know about this guy, but my own personal view of left vs. right is a comparison of the size and role of government.

Anything that makes the government larger or more powerful is left and anything that makes it small is right.

So communism, socialism, liberalism, naziism--they all have a powerful state (I'm talking reality rather than the "theoretical ideal" which we have never and will never see").

...

Now, this is not the definition that political scientists use, but this is how I view it.

I think Hitler was as far to the left as Stalin was and as far as Saddam was.


That's generally accurate. You're looking at "left" as a term to describe government control. But you've got to look at where the government control comes in.

A country can be left wing economically but ring wing socially i.e. it can give welfare benefits and so on but still not intrude on anyone's individual rights. Or it can be left wing socially (no abortion, tough drinking laws, outlaws gambling, claps political prisoners in jail without trial etc.) but right wing economically (it lets everyone make as much money as they like).

So two countries could be "left wing" because of the role of their government, but the bureaucracy could be worried about totally different things.
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-30 12:04:17
October 30 2008 12:02 GMT
#1257
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-right_politics

Savio, you fucking Feuillant bastard.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
The Storyteller
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
Singapore2486 Posts
October 30 2008 12:10 GMT
#1258
I just read that some Republicans think Palin shuld run for president next time. Now I know they're going to lose next time as well.

Palin has just been so lucky. If the Democrats didn't have so many things going for them that they feel they don't need to resort to mud-slinging, she and her family would probably have been driven close to suicide.

Everything would come out of the closet, like the amount of time she would have to concentrate on her duties with 5 children, one of whom is a special needs kid. Troopergate would get another airing. She'd be labelled a lousy mother since her daughter got pregnant. Her eloping with her husband wouldn't go down well either. By the time the election was over she wouldn't be able to lead a normal life again.
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-30 12:38:19
October 30 2008 12:37 GMT
#1259
They will absolutely not choose her to run.

Catholics for Obama


At the same time, the US bishops modified their election guidelines for 2008, presenting a moral framework but emphasizing individual responsibility for “prudent” decisionmaking. Calling abortion “an intrinsic evil” that must be opposed, they nevertheless left the door ajar to voting for a candidate who supports abortion rights. In “Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship,” the bishops write: “There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate’s unacceptable position may decide to vote for that candidate for other morally grave reasons.” (They also highlighted fundamental concerns that include war and peace, poverty, healthcare, a living wage, and environmental stewardship.)

Despite this opening, the endorsement of Barack Obama by prominent Catholic Republican Douglas Kmiec, a constitutional law expert at Pepperdine University, came as a great surprise to Catholics. Professor Kmiec, a former legal adviser to Presidents Reagan and George H.W. Bush, has written a controversial book – “Can a Catholic Support Him?” – detailing his rationale for Senator Obama based on the Catholic tradition.

While disagreeing with the Democrat’s abortion-rights position, he sees the candidate as sharing the broader worldview of Catholic social teaching. Kmiec once worked on briefs seeking to overturn Roe v. Wade, but he argues that the commitment to programs that reduce abortions will be more effective than continuing to try to reverse Roe. Even if a reversal were achievable, it would only throw the decision back to the states and abortion would continue, he says.

“It’s an argument that will make sense to Catholics who are pragmatists,” says Father Reese.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Arbiter[frolix]
Profile Joined January 2004
United Kingdom2674 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-30 13:32:08
October 30 2008 12:55 GMT
#1260
The whole "Hitler was left wing" argument is a familiar one but rather lame, I think. It smacks of a refusal to engage seriously with the complexities of the historical and political reality and the various axes along which a person's political position may be assessed.

Often it is motivated by the desire to have all the bad guys in the other camp so that one's own political position is no longer associated with such monsters. In order to achieve this happy position one simply defines away the problem: the political right is all about freedom and small government, Hitler was a dictator, therefore Hitler cannot have been on the political right.

But anyone can play that kind of game and similar arguments can be offered about practically any political figure you care to name, including Stalin.

There are interesting and worthwhile debates to be had about how we understand and classify different political viewpoints. I just don't think this is one of them.
We are vigilant.
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