On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Nobody asked the people of Hong Kong weather or not they wanted to be a part of China either. But the UK traded them around like a piece of meat. Macao wasn't even a part of China since the 16th century, still didn't stop the Portuguese from handing it over in 1999
What is your conclusion here? Are you saying that was a good or bad thing to do? Are you saying that kind of behavior should continue, or it should stop?
I'm saying if the position of the Anglo-centric part of the globe is to not hand over (or let China take) territories whos populations do not want to be a part of China they should have been more consistent about it. I personally think Taiwan is more Chinese and a part of China by identity than Hong Kong, at least Hong Kong as it was before 1997.
On August 09 2022 02:00 KwarK wrote:
On August 09 2022 01:15 zeo wrote:
On August 08 2022 04:38 Mohdoo wrote:
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Nobody asked the people of Hong Kong weather or not they wanted to be a part of China either. But the UK traded them around like a piece of meat. Macao wasn't even a part of China since the 16th century, still didn't stop the Portuguese from handing it over in 1999
The lease was expiring and China made it clear to Maggie that they would march in and take it if no deal was signed.
China has been making it clear for a long time that they would march into Taiwan if they could. China, I think, would be less likely to invade British territory than Taiwan if the UK made a stand for HK. That's my 2 cents. NATO countries never gave two shits about what the UN thought about anything or whatever it decreed if it was against that NATO countries interests. If London wanted it at the time, Hong Kong would still be Hong Kong today.
edit: The people of Hong Kong explicitly never wanted to be a part of mainland China, decolonized or colonized.
How are you simultaneously sure that you’re right and citing NATO while referring to an island off the coast of China? NATO has zero relevance outside the NA region (from the NATO acronym). Hong Kong was militarily indefensible (as has already been explained to you, it’s much closer to the mainland than Taiwan) and diplomatically indefensible (it was seized during the Opium Wars through naked colonialism and there was no good argument for why illegally stolen land ought not to be returned).
Sadly only human and moral ones, which do not seem to matter much.
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Nobody asked the people of Hong Kong weather or not they wanted to be a part of China either. But the UK traded them around like a piece of meat. Macao wasn't even a part of China since the 16th century, still didn't stop the Portuguese from handing it over in 1999
What is your conclusion here? Are you saying that was a good or bad thing to do? Are you saying that kind of behavior should continue, or it should stop?
I'm saying if the position of the Anglo-centric part of the globe is to not hand over (or let China take) territories whos populations do not want to be a part of China they should have been more consistent about it. I personally think Taiwan is more Chinese and a part of China by identity than Hong Kong, at least Hong Kong as it was before 1997.
The right of the people of Taiwan to peacefully govern their own affairs doesn't hinge on the status of Macao, nor on your personal evaluation of how Chinese they are.
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Nobody asked the people of Hong Kong weather or not they wanted to be a part of China either. But the UK traded them around like a piece of meat. Macao wasn't even a part of China since the 16th century, still didn't stop the Portuguese from handing it over in 1999
What is your conclusion here? Are you saying that was a good or bad thing to do? Are you saying that kind of behavior should continue, or it should stop?
I'm saying if the position of the Anglo-centric part of the globe is to not hand over (or let China take) territories whos populations do not want to be a part of China they should have been more consistent about it. I personally think Taiwan is more Chinese and a part of China by identity than Hong Kong, at least Hong Kong as it was before 1997.
The right of the people of Taiwan to peacefully govern their own affairs doesn't hinge on the status of Macao, nor on your personal evaluation of how Chinese they are.
One could argue Taiwan is more Chinese than China since they kept their religion and tradition which were destroyed by communists in the mainland. They also use the original characters for their writing, not the simplified script. So, basically, the Chinese legacy lies in Taiwan, not China (and I guess this irks CCP to no end).
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Nobody asked the people of Hong Kong weather or not they wanted to be a part of China either. But the UK traded them around like a piece of meat. Macao wasn't even a part of China since the 16th century, still didn't stop the Portuguese from handing it over in 1999
What is your conclusion here? Are you saying that was a good or bad thing to do? Are you saying that kind of behavior should continue, or it should stop?
I'm saying if the position of the Anglo-centric part of the globe is to not hand over (or let China take) territories whos populations do not want to be a part of China they should have been more consistent about it. I personally think Taiwan is more Chinese and a part of China by identity than Hong Kong, at least Hong Kong as it was before 1997.
The right of the people of Taiwan to peacefully govern their own affairs doesn't hinge on the status of Macao, nor on your personal evaluation of how Chinese they are.
One could argue Taiwan is more Chinese than China since they kept their religion and tradition which were destroyed by communists in the mainland. They also use the original characters for their writing, not the simplified script. So, basically, the Chinese legacy lies in Taiwan, not China (and I guess this irks CCP to no end).
As far as I am concerned, the China we know as China today is just Western China. The side of culture/history is in "Taiwan"
It seems now Pakistan is going the way of Sri Lanka and is on the verge of bankruptcy (their forex reserves will last them for up to 2 months of imports at most). This is relevant for China as it was a vital point in their Belt and Road initiative and it'll also be unable to pay off its debts to China (around $25 billion), putting more pressure on China's finances.
On August 09 2022 22:31 Manit0u wrote: It seems now Pakistan is going the way of Sri Lanka and is on the verge of bankruptcy (their forex reserves will last them for up to 2 months of imports at most). This is relevant for China as it was a vital point in their Belt and Road initiative and it'll also be unable to pay off its debts to China (around $25 billion), putting more pressure on China's finances.
It'll be interesting to see if they blame this collapse on the belt and road debt or not. One country can be blamed on bad management but when it it's more than one it becomes a pattern.
Pakistan has gone to the imf for bailouts a lot of times but this time they said no because they have to reorganize their Chinese debt first as it was unsustainable.
On August 09 2022 22:31 Manit0u wrote: It seems now Pakistan is going the way of Sri Lanka and is on the verge of bankruptcy (their forex reserves will last them for up to 2 months of imports at most). This is relevant for China as it was a vital point in their Belt and Road initiative and it'll also be unable to pay off its debts to China (around $25 billion), putting more pressure on China's finances.
It'll be interesting to see if they blame this collapse on the belt and road debt or not. One country can be blamed on bad management but when it it's more than one it becomes a pattern.
Pakistan has gone to the imf for bailouts a lot of times but this time they said no because they have to reorganize their Chinese debt first as it was unsustainable.
Well, according to the analysts there are at least 60+ other countries that might go this route this year. In regards to belt and road initiative I think it's a bit of an "unfortunate coincidence" when it comes to its relevance to China.
From my perspective it looks like China was giving poor, developing countries loans and investing its own infrastructure there in a long term plan of creating alternative transit routes and such to disrupt/control the global supply chain. What China did not account for was COVID, war in Ukraine and upcoming global market crash. So, instead of having several poorer countries around the world be subservient to China (having difficulties handling their debts to them etc.) they ended up with big investments that can't pay off as those countries are going bankrupt.
I'm no expert on economy, especially when it comes to factoring in global stuff but that's how it looks like to me at the moment. Perhaps someone better versed in this could shed some light on it or provide more insight.
Dunno, a lot of people are worried about North Korea, too, and that country does basically nothing right. People being worried about you does not mean that you do something right.
I dont agree on our goverment on 2 things 1. belt and road, most invest tons of money on 3rd world foreign lands is a pure waste of money. 2. In international affairs,our propaganda should not just pick the good news, this is miss-leading, people should hear the critisizes of westnern people , not just west politicians. ,many people in China believe the western people like China, that is far from truth.
The investments are not wastes of money if the plan is to extract treaty ports from 3rd world nations in exchange for debt relief. The problem is that China isn't in a position to enforce those treaty ports like the colonial empires did. 3rd world countries nationalized industries in the cold war and some nations just got left out in the cold.
On August 10 2022 22:36 allending2016 wrote: many people in China believe the western people like China, that is far from truth.
It's not China, it's the Chinese government, and specifically its awful record on human rights and freedom of speech. Every Chinese expat that I've gotten to know (there are several among my friends, family, and colleagues) is friendly, generous, hardworking, and graceful in adversity. I have no basis to think badly of Chinese people (certain posts in this thread excepted) and plenty of reason to think well. I wish only the best for the people of China.
Governments and leaders that are insecure about their reputations usually seek to tie their own reputation to that of the country itself. For example, Netanyahu always made sure to call criticisms of Israel's policies anti-Semitic. Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised if Xi spun a narrative that people who thought he was awful simply have an irrational hatred of China, but it's not so. Xi's regime is moving in an awful direction in terms of human rights and freedom of speech, and even people with no antipathy for China can recognize that.
Check out the US Politics thread here. You'll see a lot of Americans who love their country very much but are able to see that many elements of our government are noxious. You'll also see Europeans and others discussing the United States, and the American posters are generally capable of conversing with them while keeping a level head and not taking everything personally.
What confused the chinese most is that- If we who live in this regime did not feel we are "moving in an awful direction in terms of human rights and freedom of speech", how can you people "with no antipathy for china can recognize that"? I feel that we are moving in the opposite direction, the goverment's work are more transparent, corruptions are limited, Xi said everyone should have a dignified life and applied many policies to lift up people's lives, improving environmental protection and personal rights,we can visit more foreign websites, 4chan、imdb ...etc were not available years ago,but,yes,political discussions referring to NK and TW are still limited in china, it is China's "politically incorrect" subjects. And that's why chinese people with English skills would have a interest to talk about politics in foreign forums. I post on 4chan /pol/ too, that is another style of world
On August 11 2022 12:08 allending2016 wrote: What confused the chinese most is that- If we who live in this regime did not feel we are "moving in an awful direction in terms of human rights and freedom of speech", how can you people "with no antipathy for china can recognize that"? I feel that we are moving in the opposite direction, the goverment's work are more transparent, corruptions are limited, Xi said everyone should have a dignified life and applied many policies to lift up people's lives, improving environmental protection and personal rights,we can visit more foreign websites, 4chan、imdb ...etc were not available years ago,but,yes,political discussions referring to NK and TW are still limited in china, it is China's "politically incorrect" subjects. And that's why chinese people with English skills would have a interest to talk about politics in foreign forums. I post on 4chan /pol/ too, that is another style of world
/pol/ is not a serious discussion board, you would only infer awful takes from there. I don't believe a Chinese could go on /pol/ and make reasonable assumptions about anything. You almost have to treat it as opposite of reality.
On August 11 2022 12:08 allending2016 wrote: What confused the chinese most is that- If we who live in this regime did not feel we are "moving in an awful direction in terms of human rights and freedom of speech", how can you people "with no antipathy for china can recognize that"?
According to US congressional reports, international human rights watchdog organizations, and eyewitness testimony shared through multiple news outlets, what you've got in Xinjiang is a genocide-flavored police state.
It's also well known that Hong Kong had massive protests demanding proper democracy (a chance to vote for a representative that wasn't hand-picked by the CCP) and these protests were violently suppressed and the sought-after reforms were not delivered. In the aftermath a lot of journalists and activists have been jailed.
>>> If we who live in this regime did not feel we are "moving in an awful direction in terms of human rights and freedom of speech" Who is we? For whom do you speak? What evidence is there that public opinion is the same as your opinion? Look, if Xi thought he had public support, he wouldn't be president for life. Leaders "for life" themselves to protect themselves from the public.
the "we" I metioned are regular Chinese as me. the things happened in Xinjiang and HK you mentioned above are quite different from what our media told us. The CCTV talk about XJ and HK frequently, we know in 2019~2020 there were a group of hongkong people orgnized by Huang and Luo, Incited by some people with ulterior motives, tried to overthrow the goverment. And western journalists reporting "genocide" in Xinjiang. Look, our goverment had numerously claimed such reports were "fake news"or "made-up stories", I don't want to repeat it, maybe it is not politically correct here. Actually most Chinese people do not really care about these things. I am not surprised such things would happen, and will continously happen in the global "containing china" backgroud. As to the "power for-life" thing, it is not very well accepted by regular Chinese people, the only resonable explaination is that president Xi really want to achieve the final unification in his term of service.