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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On November 12 2025 22:28 zeo wrote:They are just getting public opinion ready for the mobilization age to be lowered even further from 25 to 22. Weather the guys getting snatched off the street will do anything besides deserting at the first possible chance is besides the point. The trends are going exponential. Show nested quote +On November 12 2025 22:13 Manit0u wrote:Also, this article is not only paid but kinda bullshit: ”The result is that the land forces are not expanding but are actually declining in numbers… The Ukrainian force density is already so low that there are parts of the front that are essentially only guarded by drones.” I'm pretty sure it's impossible to have fully staffed frontline that's 1.6k km long and neither Ukraine, nor Russia have it all covered. Also, the previous reports directly from Ukraine said they have enough men but not enough stuff to equip them all so it's rather an equipment problem than manpower problem. Literally every single shred of news coming out of Ukraine over the last year points to the complete opposite but seeing your other posts over the last few pages Russophrenia got you hard man. Stay safe.
If they really needed more men they could lower the mobilization age down to 18, like Russia. They lowered it from 27 to 25 on the insistence of the US (and still some below 27 are exempt from mobilization).
But this has been a situation for a very long time now:
Ukraine: Please give us more equipment, our dudes are under-equipped for this war.
US: You need more men.
Ukraine: Even if we need more men, we can't equip more men so we can't get more. Please give us equipment.
US: Get more men, we're not giving you more equipment.
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United States43803 Posts
That isn’t incompatible with his point. If you’re on the front then you might describe the problem as a shortage of armed men. If you’re responsible for providing armed men then you might be able to find men but not arms for them. That doesn’t mean either person is lying, they’re just looking at different parts. A shortage of armed trained equipped men is called a manpower crisis but it doesn’t mean the bottleneck is specifically lack of men. Or that lack of men is the only problem.
Ukraine’s equipment park is roughly where it was at the start of the war in terms of tanks, IFVs, artillery, and so forth. But it’s military has grown hugely. That means you have nominally armoured battalions that are under strength in real terms. They lack the equipment to properly fill them out. Ukraine’s combat power could be increased very significantly without adding extra personnel if the existing battalions were equipped to the levels NATO countries view as the minimum for combat effectiveness.
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Russian Federation618 Posts
On November 13 2025 04:26 KwarK wrote:That isn’t incompatible with his point. If you’re on the front then you might describe the problem as a shortage of armed men. If you’re responsible for providing armed men then you might be able to find men but not arms for them. That doesn’t mean either person is lying, they’re just looking at different parts. A shortage of armed trained equipped men is called a manpower crisis but it doesn’t mean the bottleneck is specifically lack of men. Or that lack of men is the only problem. Ukraine’s equipment park is roughly where it was at the start of the war in terms of tanks, IFVs, artillery, and so forth. But it’s military has grown hugely. That means you have nominally armoured battalions that are under strength in real terms. They lack the equipment to properly fill them out. Ukraine’s combat power could be increased very significantly without adding extra personnel if the existing battalions were equipped to the levels NATO countries view as the minimum for combat effectiveness.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/21/ukraine-faces-difficult-decisions-over-acute-shortage-of-frontline-troops
"Two sources in air defence units told the Guardian the deficit at the front has become so acute that the general staff has ordered already-depleted air defence units to free up more men to send to the front as infantry.
“It’s reaching a critical level where we can’t be sure that air defence can function properly,” said one of the sources, saying he had been prompted to speak out by a fear that the situation was a risk to Ukraine’s security."
https://kyivindependent.com/more-than-tomahawks-what-ukraines-military-says-it-actually-needs/
While the Ukrainian military also lacks prestigious Western-supplied weapons and equipment, soldiers and commanders say the shortage of basic resources — from cars to drones and people — makes it extremely difficult to hold back the relentless Russian offensives.
https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2025/02/combat-losses-and-manpower-challenges-underscore-the-importance-of-mass-in-ukraine/
"Ukraine’s armed forces are not currently facing a critical situation with regards to equipment; however, they will likely need significantly more weapons, especially modern Western-made systems, to reliably stop Russian assaults."
Also country without manpower shortages generally doesn't resort to this.
https://busification.org/?lang=en
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On November 13 2025 05:43 Ardias wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2025 04:26 KwarK wrote:That isn’t incompatible with his point. If you’re on the front then you might describe the problem as a shortage of armed men. If you’re responsible for providing armed men then you might be able to find men but not arms for them. That doesn’t mean either person is lying, they’re just looking at different parts. A shortage of armed trained equipped men is called a manpower crisis but it doesn’t mean the bottleneck is specifically lack of men. Or that lack of men is the only problem. Ukraine’s equipment park is roughly where it was at the start of the war in terms of tanks, IFVs, artillery, and so forth. But it’s military has grown hugely. That means you have nominally armoured battalions that are under strength in real terms. They lack the equipment to properly fill them out. Ukraine’s combat power could be increased very significantly without adding extra personnel if the existing battalions were equipped to the levels NATO countries view as the minimum for combat effectiveness. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/21/ukraine-faces-difficult-decisions-over-acute-shortage-of-frontline-troops"Two sources in air defence units told the Guardian the deficit at the front has become so acute that the general staff has ordered already-depleted air defence units to free up more men to send to the front as infantry.“It’s reaching a critical level where we can’t be sure that air defence can function properly,” said one of the sources, saying he had been prompted to speak out by a fear that the situation was a risk to Ukraine’s security." https://kyivindependent.com/more-than-tomahawks-what-ukraines-military-says-it-actually-needs/While the Ukrainian military also lacks prestigious Western-supplied weapons and equipment, soldiers and commanders say the shortage of basic resources — from cars to drones and people — makes it extremely difficult to hold back the relentless Russian offensives. https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2025/02/combat-losses-and-manpower-challenges-underscore-the-importance-of-mass-in-ukraine/" Ukraine’s armed forces are not currently facing a critical situation with regards to equipment; however, they will likely need significantly more weapons, especially modern Western-made systems, to reliably stop Russian assaults." Also country without manpower shortages generally doesn't resort to this. https://busification.org/?lang=en
It's genuinely impressive how some people choose to dodge every point thrown at them with so little effort. Did you even read the very text you quoted before doubling down again?
Let's put it in words that a 5 year old can understand:
Yes, Ukraine wants more manpower, duh. More men = you can do more stuff. However, with the current equipment shortages, recruiting more men is completely pointless. Zelenskyy does have the ability to lower the conscription age, and have chosen not to do so, because it would make no difference. What will win this war for Ukraine isn't more men in isolation, it's more-, and more modern, equipment. Zelenskyy have been very open about this for years now, which is why he's constantly touring the world to ask world leaders for weapons and resources. If he wanted more men, he could find that within the borders of his own country (The rest of the world sure aren't providing any...)
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On November 13 2025 18:11 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2025 05:43 Ardias wrote:On November 13 2025 04:26 KwarK wrote:That isn’t incompatible with his point. If you’re on the front then you might describe the problem as a shortage of armed men. If you’re responsible for providing armed men then you might be able to find men but not arms for them. That doesn’t mean either person is lying, they’re just looking at different parts. A shortage of armed trained equipped men is called a manpower crisis but it doesn’t mean the bottleneck is specifically lack of men. Or that lack of men is the only problem. Ukraine’s equipment park is roughly where it was at the start of the war in terms of tanks, IFVs, artillery, and so forth. But it’s military has grown hugely. That means you have nominally armoured battalions that are under strength in real terms. They lack the equipment to properly fill them out. Ukraine’s combat power could be increased very significantly without adding extra personnel if the existing battalions were equipped to the levels NATO countries view as the minimum for combat effectiveness. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/21/ukraine-faces-difficult-decisions-over-acute-shortage-of-frontline-troops"Two sources in air defence units told the Guardian the deficit at the front has become so acute that the general staff has ordered already-depleted air defence units to free up more men to send to the front as infantry.“It’s reaching a critical level where we can’t be sure that air defence can function properly,” said one of the sources, saying he had been prompted to speak out by a fear that the situation was a risk to Ukraine’s security." https://kyivindependent.com/more-than-tomahawks-what-ukraines-military-says-it-actually-needs/While the Ukrainian military also lacks prestigious Western-supplied weapons and equipment, soldiers and commanders say the shortage of basic resources — from cars to drones and people — makes it extremely difficult to hold back the relentless Russian offensives. https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2025/02/combat-losses-and-manpower-challenges-underscore-the-importance-of-mass-in-ukraine/" Ukraine’s armed forces are not currently facing a critical situation with regards to equipment; however, they will likely need significantly more weapons, especially modern Western-made systems, to reliably stop Russian assaults." Also country without manpower shortages generally doesn't resort to this. https://busification.org/?lang=en It's genuinely impressive how some people choose to dodge every point thrown at them with so little effort. Did you even read the very text you quoted before doubling down again? Let's put it in words that a 5 year old can understand: Yes, Ukraine wants more manpower, duh. More men = you can do more stuff. However, with the current equipment shortages, recruiting more men is completely pointless. Zelenskyy does have the ability to lower the conscription age, and have chosen not to do so, because it would make no difference. What will win this war for Ukraine isn't more men in isolation, it's more-, and more modern, equipment. Zelenskyy have been very open about this for years now, which is why he's constantly touring the world to ask world leaders for weapons and resources. If he wanted more men, he could find that within the borders of his own country (The rest of the world sure aren't providing any...)
They are not deliberately limiting recruitment number due to lack of equipment.
Multiple reports have been about recruiting efforts simply not doing well enough, hence the average age in ukraine army is between 45ish even after lowering the conscription age to 25, harder to dodge draft etc
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Given that Ukraine are having all these problems, it's funny that Russia can't advance faster than a snail could.
I can see why our resident Russians are so eager to distract from said farce.
They must be very embarrassed.
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On November 13 2025 19:16 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2025 18:11 Excludos wrote:On November 13 2025 05:43 Ardias wrote:On November 13 2025 04:26 KwarK wrote:That isn’t incompatible with his point. If you’re on the front then you might describe the problem as a shortage of armed men. If you’re responsible for providing armed men then you might be able to find men but not arms for them. That doesn’t mean either person is lying, they’re just looking at different parts. A shortage of armed trained equipped men is called a manpower crisis but it doesn’t mean the bottleneck is specifically lack of men. Or that lack of men is the only problem. Ukraine’s equipment park is roughly where it was at the start of the war in terms of tanks, IFVs, artillery, and so forth. But it’s military has grown hugely. That means you have nominally armoured battalions that are under strength in real terms. They lack the equipment to properly fill them out. Ukraine’s combat power could be increased very significantly without adding extra personnel if the existing battalions were equipped to the levels NATO countries view as the minimum for combat effectiveness. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/21/ukraine-faces-difficult-decisions-over-acute-shortage-of-frontline-troops"Two sources in air defence units told the Guardian the deficit at the front has become so acute that the general staff has ordered already-depleted air defence units to free up more men to send to the front as infantry.“It’s reaching a critical level where we can’t be sure that air defence can function properly,” said one of the sources, saying he had been prompted to speak out by a fear that the situation was a risk to Ukraine’s security." https://kyivindependent.com/more-than-tomahawks-what-ukraines-military-says-it-actually-needs/While the Ukrainian military also lacks prestigious Western-supplied weapons and equipment, soldiers and commanders say the shortage of basic resources — from cars to drones and people — makes it extremely difficult to hold back the relentless Russian offensives. https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2025/02/combat-losses-and-manpower-challenges-underscore-the-importance-of-mass-in-ukraine/" Ukraine’s armed forces are not currently facing a critical situation with regards to equipment; however, they will likely need significantly more weapons, especially modern Western-made systems, to reliably stop Russian assaults." Also country without manpower shortages generally doesn't resort to this. https://busification.org/?lang=en It's genuinely impressive how some people choose to dodge every point thrown at them with so little effort. Did you even read the very text you quoted before doubling down again? Let's put it in words that a 5 year old can understand: Yes, Ukraine wants more manpower, duh. More men = you can do more stuff. However, with the current equipment shortages, recruiting more men is completely pointless. Zelenskyy does have the ability to lower the conscription age, and have chosen not to do so, because it would make no difference. What will win this war for Ukraine isn't more men in isolation, it's more-, and more modern, equipment. Zelenskyy have been very open about this for years now, which is why he's constantly touring the world to ask world leaders for weapons and resources. If he wanted more men, he could find that within the borders of his own country (The rest of the world sure aren't providing any...) They are not deliberately limiting recruitment number due to lack of equipment. Multiple reports have been about recruiting efforts simply not doing well enough, hence the average age in ukraine army is between 45ish even after lowering the conscription age to 25, harder to dodge draft etc
So let me get this straight: You believe Ukraine has such a big recruitment problem that they've just given up completely, and refuse to make any changes to their procedures, and are now just slowly accepting defeat by simply not bothering any more, despite multiple options being available to them? Is this the argument you are going with? The same Ukraine who was and still is willing to fight tooth and nail down to the last man for their freedom? But lower recruitment age to below 25? "A fuck it, those lazy bums will just dodge it anyways. Might as well not bother. We'll just let Russia win now."
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This article just seems like an anecdote more than anything tangible. The population table is an interesting footnote, but as long as the war continues, the people "younger than 25" will eventually become 25 too, so it's not like they'll benefit from the continued war. And it's especially not like Putin isn't going to send these people to fight somewhere else the second Ukraine is lost.
At the end of the day, when a country starts losing an invasion, they'll become more and more desperate. Germany famously started recruiting kids down to as young as 12. While I don't Ukraine is going to do that, if they figure they're about to fall due to lack of manpower, there is zero chance they won't start drafting 18 year olds. And they'd have to do it a lot sooner than when the front lines starts cracking, because training isn't done in an evening.
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On November 14 2025 00:02 Excludos wrote:
The same Ukraine who was and still is willing to fight tooth and nail down to the last man for their freedom? But lower recruitment age to below 25? "A fuck it, those lazy bums will just dodge it anyways. Might as well not bother. We'll just let Russia win now."
I know this is an exaggeration for arguments sake but this is far from total wars of 20th century.
Looking at it long-term, defeat is also a possibility for Ukraine and we can't expect them to fight to the last man.
Nobody want's to become the next Belarus but it's still a better fate than to turn into a new Gaza.
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On November 14 2025 02:41 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2025 00:02 Excludos wrote:
The same Ukraine who was and still is willing to fight tooth and nail down to the last man for their freedom? But lower recruitment age to below 25? "A fuck it, those lazy bums will just dodge it anyways. Might as well not bother. We'll just let Russia win now." I know this is an exaggeration for arguments sake but this is far from total wars of 20th century. Looking at it long-term, defeat is also a possibility for Ukraine and we can't expect them to fight to the last man. Nobody want's to become the next Belarus but it's still a better fate than to turn into a new Gaza.
I don't know why you think a defeated Ukraine would look like Belarus and not like Chechnya.
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On November 14 2025 00:02 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2025 19:16 ETisME wrote:On November 13 2025 18:11 Excludos wrote:On November 13 2025 05:43 Ardias wrote:On November 13 2025 04:26 KwarK wrote:That isn’t incompatible with his point. If you’re on the front then you might describe the problem as a shortage of armed men. If you’re responsible for providing armed men then you might be able to find men but not arms for them. That doesn’t mean either person is lying, they’re just looking at different parts. A shortage of armed trained equipped men is called a manpower crisis but it doesn’t mean the bottleneck is specifically lack of men. Or that lack of men is the only problem. Ukraine’s equipment park is roughly where it was at the start of the war in terms of tanks, IFVs, artillery, and so forth. But it’s military has grown hugely. That means you have nominally armoured battalions that are under strength in real terms. They lack the equipment to properly fill them out. Ukraine’s combat power could be increased very significantly without adding extra personnel if the existing battalions were equipped to the levels NATO countries view as the minimum for combat effectiveness. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/21/ukraine-faces-difficult-decisions-over-acute-shortage-of-frontline-troops"Two sources in air defence units told the Guardian the deficit at the front has become so acute that the general staff has ordered already-depleted air defence units to free up more men to send to the front as infantry.“It’s reaching a critical level where we can’t be sure that air defence can function properly,” said one of the sources, saying he had been prompted to speak out by a fear that the situation was a risk to Ukraine’s security." https://kyivindependent.com/more-than-tomahawks-what-ukraines-military-says-it-actually-needs/While the Ukrainian military also lacks prestigious Western-supplied weapons and equipment, soldiers and commanders say the shortage of basic resources — from cars to drones and people — makes it extremely difficult to hold back the relentless Russian offensives. https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2025/02/combat-losses-and-manpower-challenges-underscore-the-importance-of-mass-in-ukraine/" Ukraine’s armed forces are not currently facing a critical situation with regards to equipment; however, they will likely need significantly more weapons, especially modern Western-made systems, to reliably stop Russian assaults." Also country without manpower shortages generally doesn't resort to this. https://busification.org/?lang=en It's genuinely impressive how some people choose to dodge every point thrown at them with so little effort. Did you even read the very text you quoted before doubling down again? Let's put it in words that a 5 year old can understand: Yes, Ukraine wants more manpower, duh. More men = you can do more stuff. However, with the current equipment shortages, recruiting more men is completely pointless. Zelenskyy does have the ability to lower the conscription age, and have chosen not to do so, because it would make no difference. What will win this war for Ukraine isn't more men in isolation, it's more-, and more modern, equipment. Zelenskyy have been very open about this for years now, which is why he's constantly touring the world to ask world leaders for weapons and resources. If he wanted more men, he could find that within the borders of his own country (The rest of the world sure aren't providing any...) They are not deliberately limiting recruitment number due to lack of equipment. Multiple reports have been about recruiting efforts simply not doing well enough, hence the average age in ukraine army is between 45ish even after lowering the conscription age to 25, harder to dodge draft etc So let me get this straight: You believe Ukraine has such a big recruitment problem that they've just given up completely, and refuse to make any changes to their procedures, and are now just slowly accepting defeat by simply not bothering any more, despite multiple options being available to them? Is this the argument you are going with? The same Ukraine who was and still is willing to fight tooth and nail down to the last man for their freedom? But lower recruitment age to below 25? "A fuck it, those lazy bums will just dodge it anyways. Might as well not bother. We'll just let Russia win now."
Wait a sec, where did I say give up and all that?
I literally said they lowers conscription age to 25, which was an attempt to boost recruitment effort.
That happened even when the draft dodgers and deserters are ongoing
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On November 14 2025 06:07 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2025 00:02 Excludos wrote:On November 13 2025 19:16 ETisME wrote:On November 13 2025 18:11 Excludos wrote:On November 13 2025 05:43 Ardias wrote:On November 13 2025 04:26 KwarK wrote:That isn’t incompatible with his point. If you’re on the front then you might describe the problem as a shortage of armed men. If you’re responsible for providing armed men then you might be able to find men but not arms for them. That doesn’t mean either person is lying, they’re just looking at different parts. A shortage of armed trained equipped men is called a manpower crisis but it doesn’t mean the bottleneck is specifically lack of men. Or that lack of men is the only problem. Ukraine’s equipment park is roughly where it was at the start of the war in terms of tanks, IFVs, artillery, and so forth. But it’s military has grown hugely. That means you have nominally armoured battalions that are under strength in real terms. They lack the equipment to properly fill them out. Ukraine’s combat power could be increased very significantly without adding extra personnel if the existing battalions were equipped to the levels NATO countries view as the minimum for combat effectiveness. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/21/ukraine-faces-difficult-decisions-over-acute-shortage-of-frontline-troops"Two sources in air defence units told the Guardian the deficit at the front has become so acute that the general staff has ordered already-depleted air defence units to free up more men to send to the front as infantry.“It’s reaching a critical level where we can’t be sure that air defence can function properly,” said one of the sources, saying he had been prompted to speak out by a fear that the situation was a risk to Ukraine’s security." https://kyivindependent.com/more-than-tomahawks-what-ukraines-military-says-it-actually-needs/While the Ukrainian military also lacks prestigious Western-supplied weapons and equipment, soldiers and commanders say the shortage of basic resources — from cars to drones and people — makes it extremely difficult to hold back the relentless Russian offensives. https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2025/02/combat-losses-and-manpower-challenges-underscore-the-importance-of-mass-in-ukraine/" Ukraine’s armed forces are not currently facing a critical situation with regards to equipment; however, they will likely need significantly more weapons, especially modern Western-made systems, to reliably stop Russian assaults." Also country without manpower shortages generally doesn't resort to this. https://busification.org/?lang=en It's genuinely impressive how some people choose to dodge every point thrown at them with so little effort. Did you even read the very text you quoted before doubling down again? Let's put it in words that a 5 year old can understand: Yes, Ukraine wants more manpower, duh. More men = you can do more stuff. However, with the current equipment shortages, recruiting more men is completely pointless. Zelenskyy does have the ability to lower the conscription age, and have chosen not to do so, because it would make no difference. What will win this war for Ukraine isn't more men in isolation, it's more-, and more modern, equipment. Zelenskyy have been very open about this for years now, which is why he's constantly touring the world to ask world leaders for weapons and resources. If he wanted more men, he could find that within the borders of his own country (The rest of the world sure aren't providing any...) They are not deliberately limiting recruitment number due to lack of equipment. Multiple reports have been about recruiting efforts simply not doing well enough, hence the average age in ukraine army is between 45ish even after lowering the conscription age to 25, harder to dodge draft etc So let me get this straight: You believe Ukraine has such a big recruitment problem that they've just given up completely, and refuse to make any changes to their procedures, and are now just slowly accepting defeat by simply not bothering any more, despite multiple options being available to them? Is this the argument you are going with? The same Ukraine who was and still is willing to fight tooth and nail down to the last man for their freedom? But lower recruitment age to below 25? "A fuck it, those lazy bums will just dodge it anyways. Might as well not bother. We'll just let Russia win now." Wait a sec, where did I say give up and all that? I literally said they lowers conscription age to 25, which was an attempt to boost recruitment effort. That happened even when the draft dodgers and deserters are ongoing
You can't expect us to find a single cogently thing in the wall of incoherence you keep posting. That's 101 trolling dude.
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On November 14 2025 06:07 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2025 00:02 Excludos wrote:On November 13 2025 19:16 ETisME wrote:On November 13 2025 18:11 Excludos wrote:On November 13 2025 05:43 Ardias wrote:On November 13 2025 04:26 KwarK wrote:That isn’t incompatible with his point. If you’re on the front then you might describe the problem as a shortage of armed men. If you’re responsible for providing armed men then you might be able to find men but not arms for them. That doesn’t mean either person is lying, they’re just looking at different parts. A shortage of armed trained equipped men is called a manpower crisis but it doesn’t mean the bottleneck is specifically lack of men. Or that lack of men is the only problem. Ukraine’s equipment park is roughly where it was at the start of the war in terms of tanks, IFVs, artillery, and so forth. But it’s military has grown hugely. That means you have nominally armoured battalions that are under strength in real terms. They lack the equipment to properly fill them out. Ukraine’s combat power could be increased very significantly without adding extra personnel if the existing battalions were equipped to the levels NATO countries view as the minimum for combat effectiveness. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/21/ukraine-faces-difficult-decisions-over-acute-shortage-of-frontline-troops"Two sources in air defence units told the Guardian the deficit at the front has become so acute that the general staff has ordered already-depleted air defence units to free up more men to send to the front as infantry.“It’s reaching a critical level where we can’t be sure that air defence can function properly,” said one of the sources, saying he had been prompted to speak out by a fear that the situation was a risk to Ukraine’s security." https://kyivindependent.com/more-than-tomahawks-what-ukraines-military-says-it-actually-needs/While the Ukrainian military also lacks prestigious Western-supplied weapons and equipment, soldiers and commanders say the shortage of basic resources — from cars to drones and people — makes it extremely difficult to hold back the relentless Russian offensives. https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2025/02/combat-losses-and-manpower-challenges-underscore-the-importance-of-mass-in-ukraine/" Ukraine’s armed forces are not currently facing a critical situation with regards to equipment; however, they will likely need significantly more weapons, especially modern Western-made systems, to reliably stop Russian assaults." Also country without manpower shortages generally doesn't resort to this. https://busification.org/?lang=en It's genuinely impressive how some people choose to dodge every point thrown at them with so little effort. Did you even read the very text you quoted before doubling down again? Let's put it in words that a 5 year old can understand: Yes, Ukraine wants more manpower, duh. More men = you can do more stuff. However, with the current equipment shortages, recruiting more men is completely pointless. Zelenskyy does have the ability to lower the conscription age, and have chosen not to do so, because it would make no difference. What will win this war for Ukraine isn't more men in isolation, it's more-, and more modern, equipment. Zelenskyy have been very open about this for years now, which is why he's constantly touring the world to ask world leaders for weapons and resources. If he wanted more men, he could find that within the borders of his own country (The rest of the world sure aren't providing any...) They are not deliberately limiting recruitment number due to lack of equipment. Multiple reports have been about recruiting efforts simply not doing well enough, hence the average age in ukraine army is between 45ish even after lowering the conscription age to 25, harder to dodge draft etc So let me get this straight: You believe Ukraine has such a big recruitment problem that they've just given up completely, and refuse to make any changes to their procedures, and are now just slowly accepting defeat by simply not bothering any more, despite multiple options being available to them? Is this the argument you are going with? The same Ukraine who was and still is willing to fight tooth and nail down to the last man for their freedom? But lower recruitment age to below 25? "A fuck it, those lazy bums will just dodge it anyways. Might as well not bother. We'll just let Russia win now." Wait a sec, where did I say give up and all that? I literally said they lowers conscription age to 25, which was an attempt to boost recruitment effort. That happened even when the draft dodgers and deserters are ongoing
That was 1.5 years ago, I'm unclear about the relevancy of that to the current situation.
What you've been arguing for is that Ukraine primarily has a lack-of-men issue. What we are arguing, is that while that is true, more men isn't going to be what will win them this war. It is not as critical as their lack of weaponry. But if you do not even know yourself what you are arguing about, then I'm not sure what any of us are doing entertaining it at all
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On November 14 2025 05:34 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2025 02:41 pmp10 wrote:On November 14 2025 00:02 Excludos wrote:
The same Ukraine who was and still is willing to fight tooth and nail down to the last man for their freedom? But lower recruitment age to below 25? "A fuck it, those lazy bums will just dodge it anyways. Might as well not bother. We'll just let Russia win now." I know this is an exaggeration for arguments sake but this is far from total wars of 20th century. Looking at it long-term, defeat is also a possibility for Ukraine and we can't expect them to fight to the last man. Nobody want's to become the next Belarus but it's still a better fate than to turn into a new Gaza. I don't know why you think a defeated Ukraine would look like Belarus and not like Chechnya.
Ukraine is too big to be effectively occupied like Chechnya.
Even a scenario of Ukrainian collapse will likely leave a rump state that Russia won't control.
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Canada11471 Posts
On November 13 2025 19:16 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2025 18:11 Excludos wrote:On November 13 2025 05:43 Ardias wrote:On November 13 2025 04:26 KwarK wrote:That isn’t incompatible with his point. If you’re on the front then you might describe the problem as a shortage of armed men. If you’re responsible for providing armed men then you might be able to find men but not arms for them. That doesn’t mean either person is lying, they’re just looking at different parts. A shortage of armed trained equipped men is called a manpower crisis but it doesn’t mean the bottleneck is specifically lack of men. Or that lack of men is the only problem. Ukraine’s equipment park is roughly where it was at the start of the war in terms of tanks, IFVs, artillery, and so forth. But it’s military has grown hugely. That means you have nominally armoured battalions that are under strength in real terms. They lack the equipment to properly fill them out. Ukraine’s combat power could be increased very significantly without adding extra personnel if the existing battalions were equipped to the levels NATO countries view as the minimum for combat effectiveness. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/21/ukraine-faces-difficult-decisions-over-acute-shortage-of-frontline-troops"Two sources in air defence units told the Guardian the deficit at the front has become so acute that the general staff has ordered already-depleted air defence units to free up more men to send to the front as infantry.“It’s reaching a critical level where we can’t be sure that air defence can function properly,” said one of the sources, saying he had been prompted to speak out by a fear that the situation was a risk to Ukraine’s security." https://kyivindependent.com/more-than-tomahawks-what-ukraines-military-says-it-actually-needs/While the Ukrainian military also lacks prestigious Western-supplied weapons and equipment, soldiers and commanders say the shortage of basic resources — from cars to drones and people — makes it extremely difficult to hold back the relentless Russian offensives. https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2025/02/combat-losses-and-manpower-challenges-underscore-the-importance-of-mass-in-ukraine/" Ukraine’s armed forces are not currently facing a critical situation with regards to equipment; however, they will likely need significantly more weapons, especially modern Western-made systems, to reliably stop Russian assaults." Also country without manpower shortages generally doesn't resort to this. https://busification.org/?lang=en It's genuinely impressive how some people choose to dodge every point thrown at them with so little effort. Did you even read the very text you quoted before doubling down again? Let's put it in words that a 5 year old can understand: Yes, Ukraine wants more manpower, duh. More men = you can do more stuff. However, with the current equipment shortages, recruiting more men is completely pointless. Zelenskyy does have the ability to lower the conscription age, and have chosen not to do so, because it would make no difference. What will win this war for Ukraine isn't more men in isolation, it's more-, and more modern, equipment. Zelenskyy have been very open about this for years now, which is why he's constantly touring the world to ask world leaders for weapons and resources. If he wanted more men, he could find that within the borders of his own country (The rest of the world sure aren't providing any...) They are not deliberately limiting recruitment number due to lack of equipment. Multiple reports have been about recruiting efforts simply not doing well enough, hence the average age in ukraine army is between 45ish even after lowering the conscription age to 25, harder to dodge draft etc
It's a chicken and egg problem though. I've seen interviews of Ukrainian men not wanting to get drafted and one of things they express is lack of equipment. It would be incredibly demoralizing to get drafted into a unit stripped down of equipment compared to getting drafted into a unit that is fully kitted out and even equipped with a couple of the latest toys that are being tested.
So for example, artillerymen are recycling old shells, dismantling defective detonator caps and reassembling with salvaged detonators. Syrski shows up at the frontline and that axis suddenly gets 200 shells, but normally they are allotted 10. You can't cover the existing troops getting 10 shells at a time. So then that creates a demoralizing effect down the line.
I think it's incredibly wrongheaded for the US to keep holding back equipment unless Ukraine can up recruitment. Flood them with equipment like Lend Lease 2.0 and Ukraine will find units to use them. And America can create more home grown industrial jobs like Trump the Magnificent keeps saying he wants.
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On November 14 2025 16:55 0x64 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2025 06:07 ETisME wrote:On November 14 2025 00:02 Excludos wrote:On November 13 2025 19:16 ETisME wrote:On November 13 2025 18:11 Excludos wrote:On November 13 2025 05:43 Ardias wrote:On November 13 2025 04:26 KwarK wrote:That isn’t incompatible with his point. If you’re on the front then you might describe the problem as a shortage of armed men. If you’re responsible for providing armed men then you might be able to find men but not arms for them. That doesn’t mean either person is lying, they’re just looking at different parts. A shortage of armed trained equipped men is called a manpower crisis but it doesn’t mean the bottleneck is specifically lack of men. Or that lack of men is the only problem. Ukraine’s equipment park is roughly where it was at the start of the war in terms of tanks, IFVs, artillery, and so forth. But it’s military has grown hugely. That means you have nominally armoured battalions that are under strength in real terms. They lack the equipment to properly fill them out. Ukraine’s combat power could be increased very significantly without adding extra personnel if the existing battalions were equipped to the levels NATO countries view as the minimum for combat effectiveness. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/21/ukraine-faces-difficult-decisions-over-acute-shortage-of-frontline-troops"Two sources in air defence units told the Guardian the deficit at the front has become so acute that the general staff has ordered already-depleted air defence units to free up more men to send to the front as infantry.“It’s reaching a critical level where we can’t be sure that air defence can function properly,” said one of the sources, saying he had been prompted to speak out by a fear that the situation was a risk to Ukraine’s security." https://kyivindependent.com/more-than-tomahawks-what-ukraines-military-says-it-actually-needs/While the Ukrainian military also lacks prestigious Western-supplied weapons and equipment, soldiers and commanders say the shortage of basic resources — from cars to drones and people — makes it extremely difficult to hold back the relentless Russian offensives. https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2025/02/combat-losses-and-manpower-challenges-underscore-the-importance-of-mass-in-ukraine/" Ukraine’s armed forces are not currently facing a critical situation with regards to equipment; however, they will likely need significantly more weapons, especially modern Western-made systems, to reliably stop Russian assaults." Also country without manpower shortages generally doesn't resort to this. https://busification.org/?lang=en It's genuinely impressive how some people choose to dodge every point thrown at them with so little effort. Did you even read the very text you quoted before doubling down again? Let's put it in words that a 5 year old can understand: Yes, Ukraine wants more manpower, duh. More men = you can do more stuff. However, with the current equipment shortages, recruiting more men is completely pointless. Zelenskyy does have the ability to lower the conscription age, and have chosen not to do so, because it would make no difference. What will win this war for Ukraine isn't more men in isolation, it's more-, and more modern, equipment. Zelenskyy have been very open about this for years now, which is why he's constantly touring the world to ask world leaders for weapons and resources. If he wanted more men, he could find that within the borders of his own country (The rest of the world sure aren't providing any...) They are not deliberately limiting recruitment number due to lack of equipment. Multiple reports have been about recruiting efforts simply not doing well enough, hence the average age in ukraine army is between 45ish even after lowering the conscription age to 25, harder to dodge draft etc So let me get this straight: You believe Ukraine has such a big recruitment problem that they've just given up completely, and refuse to make any changes to their procedures, and are now just slowly accepting defeat by simply not bothering any more, despite multiple options being available to them? Is this the argument you are going with? The same Ukraine who was and still is willing to fight tooth and nail down to the last man for their freedom? But lower recruitment age to below 25? "A fuck it, those lazy bums will just dodge it anyways. Might as well not bother. We'll just let Russia win now." Wait a sec, where did I say give up and all that? I literally said they lowers conscription age to 25, which was an attempt to boost recruitment effort. That happened even when the draft dodgers and deserters are ongoing You can't expect us to find a single cogently thing in the wall of incoherence you keep posting. That's 101 trolling dude.
It's literally a post with an article. It's not a wall.
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On November 15 2025 03:22 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2025 19:16 ETisME wrote:On November 13 2025 18:11 Excludos wrote:On November 13 2025 05:43 Ardias wrote:On November 13 2025 04:26 KwarK wrote:That isn’t incompatible with his point. If you’re on the front then you might describe the problem as a shortage of armed men. If you’re responsible for providing armed men then you might be able to find men but not arms for them. That doesn’t mean either person is lying, they’re just looking at different parts. A shortage of armed trained equipped men is called a manpower crisis but it doesn’t mean the bottleneck is specifically lack of men. Or that lack of men is the only problem. Ukraine’s equipment park is roughly where it was at the start of the war in terms of tanks, IFVs, artillery, and so forth. But it’s military has grown hugely. That means you have nominally armoured battalions that are under strength in real terms. They lack the equipment to properly fill them out. Ukraine’s combat power could be increased very significantly without adding extra personnel if the existing battalions were equipped to the levels NATO countries view as the minimum for combat effectiveness. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/21/ukraine-faces-difficult-decisions-over-acute-shortage-of-frontline-troops"Two sources in air defence units told the Guardian the deficit at the front has become so acute that the general staff has ordered already-depleted air defence units to free up more men to send to the front as infantry.“It’s reaching a critical level where we can’t be sure that air defence can function properly,” said one of the sources, saying he had been prompted to speak out by a fear that the situation was a risk to Ukraine’s security." https://kyivindependent.com/more-than-tomahawks-what-ukraines-military-says-it-actually-needs/While the Ukrainian military also lacks prestigious Western-supplied weapons and equipment, soldiers and commanders say the shortage of basic resources — from cars to drones and people — makes it extremely difficult to hold back the relentless Russian offensives. https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2025/02/combat-losses-and-manpower-challenges-underscore-the-importance-of-mass-in-ukraine/" Ukraine’s armed forces are not currently facing a critical situation with regards to equipment; however, they will likely need significantly more weapons, especially modern Western-made systems, to reliably stop Russian assaults." Also country without manpower shortages generally doesn't resort to this. https://busification.org/?lang=en It's genuinely impressive how some people choose to dodge every point thrown at them with so little effort. Did you even read the very text you quoted before doubling down again? Let's put it in words that a 5 year old can understand: Yes, Ukraine wants more manpower, duh. More men = you can do more stuff. However, with the current equipment shortages, recruiting more men is completely pointless. Zelenskyy does have the ability to lower the conscription age, and have chosen not to do so, because it would make no difference. What will win this war for Ukraine isn't more men in isolation, it's more-, and more modern, equipment. Zelenskyy have been very open about this for years now, which is why he's constantly touring the world to ask world leaders for weapons and resources. If he wanted more men, he could find that within the borders of his own country (The rest of the world sure aren't providing any...) They are not deliberately limiting recruitment number due to lack of equipment. Multiple reports have been about recruiting efforts simply not doing well enough, hence the average age in ukraine army is between 45ish even after lowering the conscription age to 25, harder to dodge draft etc It's a chicken and egg problem though. I've seen interviews of Ukrainian men not wanting to get drafted and one of things they express is lack of equipment. It would be incredibly demoralizing to get drafted into a unit stripped down of equipment compared to getting drafted into a unit that is fully kitted out and even equipped with a couple of the latest toys that are being tested. So for example, artillerymen are recycling old shells, dismantling defective detonator caps and reassembling with salvaged detonators. Syrski shows up at the frontline and that axis suddenly gets 200 shells, but normally they are allotted 10. You can't cover the existing troops getting 10 shells at a time. So then that creates a demoralizing effect down the line. I think it's incredibly wrongheaded for the US to keep holding back equipment unless Ukraine can up recruitment. Flood them with equipment like Lend Lease 2.0 and Ukraine will find units to use them. And America can create more home grown industrial jobs like Trump the Magnificent keeps saying he wants.
One of the reasons yes, but it's far from being a significant factor enough to be a game changer like you implied.
Result of draft is devastating and there's an exodus of young men.
As the Russia War Continues, Ukraine Faces a Major Draft Evasion Problem - The New York Times https://share.google/j8syfdA34a4YLuh3r
Ukraine faces ‘huge problems’ finding soldiers as men flee abroad, says Kyiv mayor – POLITICO https://share.google/1oAyzmQcmmbjZECw6
"But the situation in Ukraine has changed since last spring. Ukrainian forces now have parity and sometimes even a small firepower edge at important points on the 600-mile frontline. Ukraine’s shell hunger has been largely sated for the time being. Firepower and materiel are no longer the Russo-Ukrainian war’s center of gravity."
The Deep Strike Dodge: Firepower and Manpower in Ukraine’s War https://share.google/VIh4unHtwbzmSVMFm
All the talks about lacking firepower in all honesty is just nothing burger. Even NOT deployed onto the field, earlier training alone would be a welcome change.
There are currently 6 million Ukrainians refugees, with Ukraine looking to give a lot of them draft exemptions to work in their defence department. We can then see how effective and eagered they are to defend the country without all the noise about equipment.
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On November 15 2025 08:34 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2025 03:22 Falling wrote:On November 13 2025 19:16 ETisME wrote:On November 13 2025 18:11 Excludos wrote:On November 13 2025 05:43 Ardias wrote:On November 13 2025 04:26 KwarK wrote:That isn’t incompatible with his point. If you’re on the front then you might describe the problem as a shortage of armed men. If you’re responsible for providing armed men then you might be able to find men but not arms for them. That doesn’t mean either person is lying, they’re just looking at different parts. A shortage of armed trained equipped men is called a manpower crisis but it doesn’t mean the bottleneck is specifically lack of men. Or that lack of men is the only problem. Ukraine’s equipment park is roughly where it was at the start of the war in terms of tanks, IFVs, artillery, and so forth. But it’s military has grown hugely. That means you have nominally armoured battalions that are under strength in real terms. They lack the equipment to properly fill them out. Ukraine’s combat power could be increased very significantly without adding extra personnel if the existing battalions were equipped to the levels NATO countries view as the minimum for combat effectiveness. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/21/ukraine-faces-difficult-decisions-over-acute-shortage-of-frontline-troops"Two sources in air defence units told the Guardian the deficit at the front has become so acute that the general staff has ordered already-depleted air defence units to free up more men to send to the front as infantry.“It’s reaching a critical level where we can’t be sure that air defence can function properly,” said one of the sources, saying he had been prompted to speak out by a fear that the situation was a risk to Ukraine’s security." https://kyivindependent.com/more-than-tomahawks-what-ukraines-military-says-it-actually-needs/While the Ukrainian military also lacks prestigious Western-supplied weapons and equipment, soldiers and commanders say the shortage of basic resources — from cars to drones and people — makes it extremely difficult to hold back the relentless Russian offensives. https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2025/02/combat-losses-and-manpower-challenges-underscore-the-importance-of-mass-in-ukraine/" Ukraine’s armed forces are not currently facing a critical situation with regards to equipment; however, they will likely need significantly more weapons, especially modern Western-made systems, to reliably stop Russian assaults." Also country without manpower shortages generally doesn't resort to this. https://busification.org/?lang=en It's genuinely impressive how some people choose to dodge every point thrown at them with so little effort. Did you even read the very text you quoted before doubling down again? Let's put it in words that a 5 year old can understand: Yes, Ukraine wants more manpower, duh. More men = you can do more stuff. However, with the current equipment shortages, recruiting more men is completely pointless. Zelenskyy does have the ability to lower the conscription age, and have chosen not to do so, because it would make no difference. What will win this war for Ukraine isn't more men in isolation, it's more-, and more modern, equipment. Zelenskyy have been very open about this for years now, which is why he's constantly touring the world to ask world leaders for weapons and resources. If he wanted more men, he could find that within the borders of his own country (The rest of the world sure aren't providing any...) They are not deliberately limiting recruitment number due to lack of equipment. Multiple reports have been about recruiting efforts simply not doing well enough, hence the average age in ukraine army is between 45ish even after lowering the conscription age to 25, harder to dodge draft etc It's a chicken and egg problem though. I've seen interviews of Ukrainian men not wanting to get drafted and one of things they express is lack of equipment. It would be incredibly demoralizing to get drafted into a unit stripped down of equipment compared to getting drafted into a unit that is fully kitted out and even equipped with a couple of the latest toys that are being tested. So for example, artillerymen are recycling old shells, dismantling defective detonator caps and reassembling with salvaged detonators. Syrski shows up at the frontline and that axis suddenly gets 200 shells, but normally they are allotted 10. You can't cover the existing troops getting 10 shells at a time. So then that creates a demoralizing effect down the line. I think it's incredibly wrongheaded for the US to keep holding back equipment unless Ukraine can up recruitment. Flood them with equipment like Lend Lease 2.0 and Ukraine will find units to use them. And America can create more home grown industrial jobs like Trump the Magnificent keeps saying he wants. One of the reasons yes, but it's far from being a significant factor enough to be a game changer like you implied. You can read articles directly : Result of draft is devastating and there's an exodus of young men. As the Russia War Continues, Ukraine Faces a Major Draft Evasion Problem - The New York Times https://share.google/j8syfdA34a4YLuh3rUkraine faces ‘huge problems’ finding soldiers as men flee abroad, says Kyiv mayor – POLITICO https://share.google/1oAyzmQcmmbjZECw6"But the situation in Ukraine has changed since last spring. Ukrainian forces now have parity and sometimes even a small firepower edge at important points on the 600-mile frontline. Ukraine’s shell hunger has been largely sated for the time being. Firepower and materiel are no longer the Russo-Ukrainian war’s center of gravity." The Deep Strike Dodge: Firepower and Manpower in Ukraine’s War https://share.google/VIh4unHtwbzmSVMFm
Bananas can never be brown, they are only ever yellow! Here's proof!
https://pekoproduce.com/blogs/produce-nutrition/green-to-yellow-to-spotty-how-do-bananas-ripen
“As chlorophyll (green pigment) breaks down and carotenoids (yellow pigment) are created, bananas will slowly transition from green to a light yellow colour.”
https://www.scienceabc.com/nature/bananas-change-colour-upon-ripening.html
“At the molecular level, there is cell division and starch to sugar conversion, translating green hard bananas to sweet sumptuous yellow ripe bananas, enticing frugivores and humans alike.”
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10118268
“The green-to-yellow color of banana peels is an excellent indicator of fruit ripening.”
https://kids.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/frym.2018.00016
“During ripening, there is an increase in ethylene production and a massive change in colour in bananas as they ripen.”
https://scienceinschool.org/article/2018/go-bananas-biochemistry
“This article describes a selection of simple but meaningful experiments using a common fruit (banana) to understand some basic metabolic processes.”
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/food-journeys-graphic
“Bananas are grown year-round in tropical and subtropical regions of the world.”
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0042698922000840
“We propose that the perceived object colour is determined by the dominant hue.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana
“The vivid yellow colour many consumers in temperate climates associate with bananas is caused by ripening around ~18 °C, and does not occur in Cavendish bananas ripened in tropical temperatures (over 27 °C).”
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/green-bananas-good-or-bad
“As bananas ripen, they produce and release ethylene gas, which causes the yellow pigment in the fruit skin to decay and turn brown.”
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271207951_Banana_Ripening_Colour_Physical_and_Sensory_Changes
“The change in colour of the peel from green to yellow is the most apparent change that occurs during ripening and serves as a rough gauge to the stage of ripeness.”
Edit: If I need to spell it out for you, this is how you argue. There's no worthy substance in just linking to a bunch of random articles and adding a random sentence to each. I very much suspect you used chatgpt to fish out random articles for you, just like I did here. This is not how to make reasonable arguments. You are providing nothing. You're not even arguing for anything. Whenever your arguments are countered, you just go "whaaaa? Mee? But I never said that!" which is true, because you haven't said anything of worth.
Stop this nonsense. Stop arguing in bad faith. Stop trolling
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EPT
