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On June 13 2024 07:01 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2024 06:18 SC-Shield wrote:On June 12 2024 05:29 Suibne wrote:
And in eastern Europe, there seem to be more far right wingers than in western Europe. Any sources to back up your claim? Because I know of a few far right wingers: - AfD - Alternative for Germany (Germany), 2nd place in EU election - National Rally - 1st place in France in EU election - Austria and Netherlands also had big support for far right wingers in EU election Not to forget where Hitler came from. So what's your point about Eastern Europe? In Germany, the AfD is mostly strong in the eastern states which used to belong to the GDR. While not irrelevant in the west, they don't get anywhere near the same results that they get in the east, where they are often the strongest party. And i assume that Suibne means stuff like Orban in Hungary and PIS in Poland actually getting into power.
Neither PiS nor Orban are far right though.
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On June 14 2024 17:39 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2024 07:01 Simberto wrote:On June 13 2024 06:18 SC-Shield wrote:On June 12 2024 05:29 Suibne wrote:
And in eastern Europe, there seem to be more far right wingers than in western Europe. Any sources to back up your claim? Because I know of a few far right wingers: - AfD - Alternative for Germany (Germany), 2nd place in EU election - National Rally - 1st place in France in EU election - Austria and Netherlands also had big support for far right wingers in EU election Not to forget where Hitler came from. So what's your point about Eastern Europe? In Germany, the AfD is mostly strong in the eastern states which used to belong to the GDR. While not irrelevant in the west, they don't get anywhere near the same results that they get in the east, where they are often the strongest party. And i assume that Suibne means stuff like Orban in Hungary and PIS in Poland actually getting into power. Neither PiS nor Orban are far right though.
Exactly. Calling either 'far right' is normalizing them. They are extreme right. Far right implies they are not dangerous.
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Thats just wrong. PiS isn't even "right" in tradiditional sense. They pushed tons of leftist economical policies and made a lot of conservative talking points on social issues, but haven't followed on most of them. They are an example of party of who says one thing and does the other. You are either misinformed or knowingly posting BS.
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I wonder what threats Kremlin is going to scream at the clouds as a response this time. I'm guessing either
1. Nukes
2. Things they've already done, doing, or always done anyways
4. Things they won't/can't do
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On June 14 2024 20:07 Silvanel wrote:
Thats just wrong. PiS isn't even "right" in tradiditional sense. They pushed tons of leftist economical policies and made a lot of conservative talking points on social issues, but haven't followed on most of them. They are an example of party of who says one thing and does the other. You are either misinformed or knowingly posting BS.
They're just populists who also happen to lean heavily on conservatism and "traditional" values.
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On June 14 2024 20:07 Silvanel wrote:
Thats just wrong. PiS isn't even "right" in tradiditional sense. They pushed tons of leftist economical policies and made a lot of conservative talking points on social issues, but haven't followed on most of them. They are an example of party of who says one thing and does the other. You are either misinformed or knowingly posting BS.
You are brainwashed. PiS was literally dismantling Polish democracy for 8 years. This is well-reported.
Besides that, they have a strong anti gay&trans&woman&abortion platform.
It even went so far that in the end PiS went face-off and demonstrated they hate the EU and Ukraine more than they hate Putin. Despite knowing very well that the USSR did to Poland during WW2 and what Putin is doing today just across the border.
And of course they are anti-immigrant/Islam and extremely populist.
PiS are literally crazy and crazy dangerous.
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On June 14 2024 20:07 Silvanel wrote:
Thats just wrong. PiS isn't even "right" in tradiditional sense. They pushed tons of leftist economical policies and made a lot of conservative talking points on social issues, but haven't followed on most of them. You are either misinformed or knowingly posting BS. Are they anti-immigrant and Islamophobic? Then they are far right.
Many far right anti foreigner parties dress themselves up in leftist economic policies to appear more palatable.
I'm also not sure if we should be describing things like universal healthcare and social security as 'left' anymore. Those things are pretty ubiquitous for most of the developed world.
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In that case I have bad news for You since now ruling in Poland KO is pretty much the same on those issues as PiS. They are much better at PR, but policy wise they are pretty much the same. Some might say they are even worse. They alocated a lot more resources to securing the border and are in process of changing laws and regulations so our soldiers/border guards have easier time shooting at migrants.
The only polish party that isn't far right by your defintion scored 6,3% in EU elections.
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I'll repeat again: PiS is NOT far right.
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On June 14 2024 20:56 Suibne wrote:
I'll repeat again: PiS is NOT far right.
Not that I'm particularly invested in this conversation, but just repeating something, especially without anything to back it up, doesn't make it true. This is a very low form of argument, and very unconstructive to the debate
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I am repeating myself because they are saying I said PiS is far right, when I said the opposite. I can give arguments, but at this state of the conversation that is kind of pointless.
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On June 14 2024 21:06 Suibne wrote:
I am repeating myself because they are saying I said PiS is far right, when I said the opposite. I can give arguments, but at this state of the conversation that is kind of pointless.
You literally said that PiS is not far right, its extreme right. What kind of mental gymnastics is this?
On June 14 2024 19:57 Suibne wrote:
Exactly. Calling either 'far right' is normalizing them. They are extreme right. Far right implies they are not dangerous.
And you say this after cheerleading for Azov of all groups of people
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Keep your proPutin dirt out of my face! Thank you.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On June 14 2024 22:08 Suibne wrote:
Keep your proPutin dirt out of my face! Thank you.
I bet this guy is a pro-Putin troll. Cause there's no way a real human can be so fucked up 
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United States43212 Posts
On June 14 2024 20:34 Suibne wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2024 20:07 Silvanel wrote:
Thats just wrong. PiS isn't even "right" in tradiditional sense. They pushed tons of leftist economical policies and made a lot of conservative talking points on social issues, but haven't followed on most of them. They are an example of party of who says one thing and does the other. You are either misinformed or knowingly posting BS. You are brainwashed. PiS was literally dismantling Polish democracy for 8 years. This is well-reported. Besides that, they have a strong anti gay&trans&woman&abortion platform. It even went so far that in the end PiS went face-off and demonstrated they hate the EU and Ukraine more than they hate Putin. Despite knowing very well that the USSR did to Poland during WW2 and what Putin is doing today just across the border. And of course they are anti-immigrant/Islam and extremely populist. PiS are literally crazy and crazy dangerous.
You can have economically leftist anti democratic assholes too. Poland has had a lot of those in living memory. And you can have populists who borrow whatever they need from whatever ideology they think will win them power. A traditional right/left economic descriptor is not sufficient to cover all scenarios.
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On June 14 2024 19:57 Suibne wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2024 17:39 Silvanel wrote:On June 13 2024 07:01 Simberto wrote:On June 13 2024 06:18 SC-Shield wrote:On June 12 2024 05:29 Suibne wrote:
And in eastern Europe, there seem to be more far right wingers than in western Europe. Any sources to back up your claim? Because I know of a few far right wingers: - AfD - Alternative for Germany (Germany), 2nd place in EU election - National Rally - 1st place in France in EU election - Austria and Netherlands also had big support for far right wingers in EU election Not to forget where Hitler came from. So what's your point about Eastern Europe? In Germany, the AfD is mostly strong in the eastern states which used to belong to the GDR. While not irrelevant in the west, they don't get anywhere near the same results that they get in the east, where they are often the strongest party. And i assume that Suibne means stuff like Orban in Hungary and PIS in Poland actually getting into power. Neither PiS nor Orban are far right though. Exactly. Calling either 'far right' is normalizing them. They are extreme right. Far right implies they are not dangerous.
It looks like you haven't bothered to read the article you referenced. ;-)
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On June 15 2024 00:09 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2024 20:34 Suibne wrote:On June 14 2024 20:07 Silvanel wrote:
Thats just wrong. PiS isn't even "right" in tradiditional sense. They pushed tons of leftist economical policies and made a lot of conservative talking points on social issues, but haven't followed on most of them. They are an example of party of who says one thing and does the other. You are either misinformed or knowingly posting BS. You are brainwashed. PiS was literally dismantling Polish democracy for 8 years. This is well-reported. Besides that, they have a strong anti gay&trans&woman&abortion platform. It even went so far that in the end PiS went face-off and demonstrated they hate the EU and Ukraine more than they hate Putin. Despite knowing very well that the USSR did to Poland during WW2 and what Putin is doing today just across the border. And of course they are anti-immigrant/Islam and extremely populist. PiS are literally crazy and crazy dangerous. You can have economically leftist anti democratic assholes too. Poland has had a lot of those in living memory. And you can have populists who borrow whatever they need from whatever ideology they think will win them power. A traditional right/left economic descriptor is not sufficient to cover all scenarios.
Precisely. PiS abuse of power, corruption, cronyism and erosion of the rule of law is not a trait that makes them right or left winged. Leftist and centrist can also engage in those activities. In that regard, KO is certainly better, if only a little. But that wasn't what was discussed then.
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On June 15 2024 01:41 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2024 00:09 KwarK wrote:On June 14 2024 20:34 Suibne wrote:On June 14 2024 20:07 Silvanel wrote:
Thats just wrong. PiS isn't even "right" in tradiditional sense. They pushed tons of leftist economical policies and made a lot of conservative talking points on social issues, but haven't followed on most of them. They are an example of party of who says one thing and does the other. You are either misinformed or knowingly posting BS. You are brainwashed. PiS was literally dismantling Polish democracy for 8 years. This is well-reported. Besides that, they have a strong anti gay&trans&woman&abortion platform. It even went so far that in the end PiS went face-off and demonstrated they hate the EU and Ukraine more than they hate Putin. Despite knowing very well that the USSR did to Poland during WW2 and what Putin is doing today just across the border. And of course they are anti-immigrant/Islam and extremely populist. PiS are literally crazy and crazy dangerous. You can have economically leftist anti democratic assholes too. Poland has had a lot of those in living memory. And you can have populists who borrow whatever they need from whatever ideology they think will win them power. A traditional right/left economic descriptor is not sufficient to cover all scenarios. Precisely. PiS abuse of power, corruption, cronyism and erosion of the rule of law is not a trait that makes them right or left winged.
That's exactly why their far right politics combined with what you describe make them extreme right. If a center-left party is corrupt or wants to erode the rule of law, then they do not become extreme right, because they weren't far right to begin with.
This isn't rocket science.
There has been a lot of talk of far right parties in Europe having some populist left wing policies. True, they sometimes talk about this. But this is a trait of extreme right. They talk about left wing socialist policies. But when it comes time to vote or implement, they go even further right than the conservative right does. I don't know why people keep falling for this. A populist anti-immigration party with democratic socialist policies sounds like a really good way to win votes, though.
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On June 15 2024 00:37 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2024 19:57 Suibne wrote:On June 14 2024 17:39 Silvanel wrote:On June 13 2024 07:01 Simberto wrote:On June 13 2024 06:18 SC-Shield wrote:On June 12 2024 05:29 Suibne wrote:
And in eastern Europe, there seem to be more far right wingers than in western Europe. Any sources to back up your claim? Because I know of a few far right wingers: - AfD - Alternative for Germany (Germany), 2nd place in EU election - National Rally - 1st place in France in EU election - Austria and Netherlands also had big support for far right wingers in EU election Not to forget where Hitler came from. So what's your point about Eastern Europe? In Germany, the AfD is mostly strong in the eastern states which used to belong to the GDR. While not irrelevant in the west, they don't get anywhere near the same results that they get in the east, where they are often the strongest party. And i assume that Suibne means stuff like Orban in Hungary and PIS in Poland actually getting into power. Neither PiS nor Orban are far right though. Exactly. Calling either 'far right' is normalizing them. They are extreme right. Far right implies they are not dangerous. It looks like you haven't bothered to read the article you referenced. ;-)
He is pretty delusional, too. I just didn't bother to reply to him. Calling Eastern Europe more far right than western part, let alone far right, is hilarious. If history teaches anything, Eastern Europe was communist and communism is anything but far right. The guy wants to repeat his propaganda though.
I couldn't care less about PiS, Orban or whatever though. What matters is who has actual power! I'd argue far right in western countries has more power than "far right" in eastern countries. Why? Because far right in France would have more seats in EU than far right from Hungary.
And sorry, if being anti-immigrant is far right, then Conservatives from UK should be pretty much far right by your definition as they promise every year to reduce immigration. It's incredibly silly to me to categorise "far right" as someone who wants to reduce immigration, this is way oversimplified even for a person who isn't expert in politics. In your case, "far left" would be welcoming immigrants in waves. What's in between those two then? Where do you draw the line?
Edit: from wikipedia:
Far-right politics, or right-wing extremism, is a spectrum of political thought that tends to be radically conservative, ultra-nationalist, and authoritarian, often also including nativist tendencies.[1] The name derives from the left–right political spectrum, with the "far right" considered further from center than the standard political right.
Historically, "far-right politics" has been used to describe the experiences of fascism, Nazism, and Falangism. Contemporary definitions now include neo-fascism, neo-Nazism, the Third Position, the alt-right, racial supremacism and other ideologies or organizations that feature aspects of authoritarian, ultra-nationalist, chauvinist, xenophobic, theocratic, racist, homophobic, transphobic, or reactionary views.[2]
Far-right politics have led to oppression, political violence, forced assimilation, ethnic cleansing, and genocide against groups of people based on their supposed inferiority or their perceived threat to the native ethnic group, nation, state, national religion, dominant culture, or conservative social institutions.[3]
I think some people from this thread use "far right" too freely in comparison to what is described far right in history books.
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EPT
