NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
On February 12 2024 20:08 Ulrik1 wrote: Well yea that’s the consequences you’re gonna have to deal with when your country invade another country. It’s a way of showing that they don’t agree with what your country is doing. It sucks that people that isn’t involved or agree with what’s happening is affected, but you still represent your country, and it’s up to you and your fellow Russians to make a change. Saying that «I dont agree» and expecting to be treated like you’re not representing your country is pretty blue eyed.
Well, all my Swedish colleagues think it's madness and they don't agree with this at all, but you do you.
On February 12 2024 20:08 Ulrik1 wrote: Well yea that’s the consequences you’re gonna have to deal with when your country invade another country. It’s a way of showing that they don’t agree with what your country is doing. It sucks that people that isn’t involved or agree with what’s happening is affected, but you still represent your country, and it’s up to you and your fellow Russians to make a change. Saying that «I dont agree» and expecting to be treated like you’re not representing your country is pretty blue eyed.
Well, all my Swedish colleagues think it's madness and they don't agree with this at all, but you do you.
Its too bad its not your swedish friends that decide for you then.. of course friends and family will be supportive, but don’t expect the same from your employer. You still represent where you are from, even if you don’t agree with what’s happening.
So I guess you should also be fired if your relative committed a crime? After all you represent your family, even if you don’t agree with what your relative did. And you have much, much more influence over your family compared to your country - so probably you should be punished even more.
This should be a society's way to show that it doesn't agree with what your relative did. Doesn't sound like discrimination at all. Got it.
On February 11 2024 01:08 ZeroByte13 wrote: I consider myself apolitical, and most people I know in Russia - i.e. "my circle" - are (or at least were) mostly apolitical too. If you live there you learn fast to separate Russia as a state/government and Russians as people around you.
Out of a few dozens people I know pretty well and talked to often (so I know their opinions), maybe one or two - both are 60+ years old - actually support the war, they watch TV and believe everything. But most of them (people I know) are against the war, and many are really against it. Those who could leave, they left, but many cannot for different reasons.
Most of them are apolitical because they learned their voices/votes mean nothing with the system that has been in place long before they could vote. It doesn't mean they're imperialists inside or anything. It's learned helplessness more than anything.
I think you may live in a liberal bubble. It's similar to how many Americans are asking "Who are all those people voting for Trump/Biden, I don't know anyone who does".
As I said before, every source of information I have paints the same picture - polls (both inside Russia and among Russians abroad), real-life and online interactions, street interviews, information on the Russian diaspora from my Russian colleagues, information from Ukrainian friends about their Russian friends and relatives.
On February 10 2024 23:33 Simberto wrote:
On February 10 2024 18:57 maybenexttime wrote:
On February 10 2024 08:27 Falling wrote:
On February 10 2024 08:08 KwarK wrote: Question is why would all these countries be so eager to get out from under Russian dominance.
Has to be one of Putin's biggest blindspots. He does not seem to fathom the idea that countries would flee from Russian hegemony. Therefore everything must be an outside plot because there is clearly no legitimate reason for the eastern nations to be anything other than friendly/ submissive to Russia wishes.
Russians are one of the most cowed nations out there. Most of them can't comprehend the idea of other nations taking their destiny in their own hands because themselves they have outsourced all political power to the Kremlin. When you watch street interviews with average Russians on channels like 1420 or such, you'll notice how often people talk about being "apolitical" or "outside of politics". They frequently say things like "let those at the top decide, they know better".
This is consistent with the data from independent polling organizations. Depending on how you phrase the question, you can find the vast majority of Russians either supporting the war ("Do you support the actions of the Russian Armed Forces in Ukraine?") or in favor of peace talks ("Would you support the Kremlin in pursuing peace talks with Ukraine?"; can't find the link right now). Most Russians will support whatever decision the Kremlin makes regarding the war. You have roughly 15-20% of rabid nationalists of different flavors, 15-20% staunchly against the war, and 60-70% in that apolitical blob accepting whatever the Kremlin does. Most of those are still imperialists, ranging from patronizing to outright xenophobic.
That is what you get when having an opinion that is not the Kremlin opinion gets you into trouble.
I'd probably be "apolitical" too. At least that way i don't have to feel responsible for the shit Putin is doing.
The majority of Russians living in Germany support Putin and the war. Are they also somehow coerced into giving such answers in opinion polls?
Probably not, but that is a completely different thing alltogether from the "apolitical" thing we talked about before.
I don't know why they support Putins war. But i don't really know a lot of Russians to begin with.
And if you want something even more sad: A bunch of Germans also support Putins war, or do insane Putinloving stuff like saying that "The only way to peace is to stop supporting Ukraine".
No, i also don't understand those people. Especially as they often claim to be left-wing. It is absurd to me as a left-wing person how anyone on the left could be supporting a hard-right autocrat in his war of aggression, yet here we are.
Those people are only political in the sense that they are looking out whats best for them personally shortterm. And a expensive war which also makes ressources like oil and gas more expensive is bad for them and their lifes right now.
But yes it would be nice if those people could leave please. And while they are at it, take all the Erdogan lovers with them, thank you
On February 12 2024 20:08 Ulrik1 wrote: Well yea that’s the consequences you’re gonna have to deal with when your country invade another country. It’s a way of showing that they don’t agree with what your country is doing. It sucks that people that isn’t involved or agree with what’s happening is affected, but you still represent your country, and it’s up to you and your fellow Russians to make a change. Saying that «I dont agree» and expecting to be treated like you’re not representing your country is pretty blue eyed.
Well, all my Swedish colleagues think it's madness and they don't agree with this at all, but you do you.
I don't know what work you do. I know there are legal issues with certain lines of work. Employers however, should have no issues beyond "do you have a work permit?" That can be a tricky issue, of course, and getting/extending a work permit may not be easy at all, but if you aren't working in an area where Sweden has specific laws to protect sensitive information, I don't really see any reason why your employer should be worried about where you're from. Not doing business with Russia (as a state) is a very different position from not hiring any Russian employees. The latter is quite nonsensical if you live in Sweden...
On February 13 2024 01:31 Acrofales wrote: I don't know what work you do. I know there are legal issues with certain lines of work. Employers however, should have no issues beyond "do you have a work permit?" That can be a tricky issue, of course, and getting/extending a work permit may not be easy at all, but if you aren't working in an area where Sweden has specific laws to protect sensitive information, I don't really see any reason why your employer should be worried about where you're from. Not doing business with Russia (as a state) is a very different position from not hiring any Russian employees. The latter is quite nonsensical if you live in Sweden...
I'm a software developer. My work permit is alright for now, we'll see if it will be extended - 3-4 years ago it 99% would be but now who knows. I also think it's nonsensical, I hope the employer will see it the same way.
On February 12 2024 22:14 ZeroByte13 wrote: So I guess you should also be fired if your relative committed a crime? After all you represent your family, even if you don’t agree with what your relative did. And you have much, much more influence over your family compared to your country - so probably you should be punished even more.
This should be a society's way to show that it doesn't agree with what your relative did. Doesn't sound like discrimination at all. Got it.
Its not comparable.. a family and a country is two completely different things…
Other countries need a way to show that they dont agree. And the easiest/best way is to «punish» the people that represent the country they oppose. Putting pressure on the people to actually do something about the situation.
On February 12 2024 18:28 0x64 wrote: The parents are mostly responsive to the part of Putin's speech about Russian being treat like second class citizen abroad. Which while it is untrue...
It's just one case but still. I live and work in Sweden now, and my customer said they really want to offer me employment (I'm a consultant now) because I'm very important to the team and the project. I've been working for them for almost 6 years now.
And still I was told there's a significant chance that they will have to terminate my contract because of my citizenship. Same for my Russian colleague - they really want him but his citizenship might be a problem. Our work has nothing to do with military or government, of course. My direct boss and a few colleagues said they will do everything in their power to not let this happen but it's up to a higher level of management.
I wish I was making this up but this is true. Is it the same as being treated as a second class citizen or not - it's up to everyone's personal opinion. But it still sucks big time as you can imagine.
That's likely illegal discrimination. There are no general sanctions against Russians. If you have that in writing you would likely win if reporting it to DO. Things get harder if you are a consultant and they aren't retarded and giving it as a reason in text, but still.
I know (goverment) organisations that have hired Russians even after the war started and are even doing more than they have too in order for them to get the proper licenses. So a private company deciding to discriminate is just stupid.
On February 12 2024 22:14 ZeroByte13 wrote: So I guess you should also be fired if your relative committed a crime? After all you represent your family, even if you don’t agree with what your relative did. And you have much, much more influence over your family compared to your country - so probably you should be punished even more.
This should be a society's way to show that it doesn't agree with what your relative did. Doesn't sound like discrimination at all. Got it.
Its not comparable.. a family and a country is two completely different things…
Other countries need a way to show that they dont agree. And the easiest/best way is to «punish» the people that represent the country they oppose. Putting pressure on the people to actually do something about the situation.
This is the stupidest thing I have read in this thread. Congrats.
Imagine telling a North Korean defector that they should be punished after escaping to South Korea, because they're technically still a citizen of the North Korea.
On February 12 2024 22:14 ZeroByte13 wrote: So I guess you should also be fired if your relative committed a crime? After all you represent your family, even if you don’t agree with what your relative did. And you have much, much more influence over your family compared to your country - so probably you should be punished even more.
This should be a society's way to show that it doesn't agree with what your relative did. Doesn't sound like discrimination at all. Got it.
Its not comparable.. a family and a country is two completely different things…
Other countries need a way to show that they dont agree. And the easiest/best way is to «punish» the people that represent the country they oppose. Putting pressure on the people to actually do something about the situation.
This is the stupidest thing I have read in this thread. Congrats.
Imagine telling a North Korean defector that they should be punished after escaping to South Korea, because they're technically still a citizen of the North Korea.
Also, i don't think that is how stuff currently works. Afaik Russians aren't generally sanctioned. There is a list of criminals involved in the war who are sanctioned, and of course transactions into Russia are sanctioned. But i have yet to hear of any rule that prevents companies from hiring normal Russians who are legally within a European country. Maybe if there is some national security aspect involved? But i don't know anything about that.
On February 12 2024 22:14 ZeroByte13 wrote: So I guess you should also be fired if your relative committed a crime? After all you represent your family, even if you don’t agree with what your relative did. And you have much, much more influence over your family compared to your country - so probably you should be punished even more.
This should be a society's way to show that it doesn't agree with what your relative did. Doesn't sound like discrimination at all. Got it.
Its not comparable.. a family and a country is two completely different things…
Other countries need a way to show that they dont agree. And the easiest/best way is to «punish» the people that represent the country they oppose. Putting pressure on the people to actually do something about the situation.
This is the stupidest thing I have read in this thread. Congrats.
Imagine telling a North Korean defector that they should be punished after escaping to South Korea, because they're technically still a citizen of the North Korea.
You obviously didn’t understand what I tried to say then. English is not my preferred language, so misunderstandings is to be expected.
I’m not saying that they should be actively punished. I’m saying that you should expect to be treated differently if you come from a country that has gone to war and invaded another country. Because putting pressure on the people is the most effective solution.
On February 12 2024 22:14 ZeroByte13 wrote: So I guess you should also be fired if your relative committed a crime? After all you represent your family, even if you don’t agree with what your relative did. And you have much, much more influence over your family compared to your country - so probably you should be punished even more.
This should be a society's way to show that it doesn't agree with what your relative did. Doesn't sound like discrimination at all. Got it.
Its not comparable.. a family and a country is two completely different things…
Other countries need a way to show that they dont agree. And the easiest/best way is to «punish» the people that represent the country they oppose. Putting pressure on the people to actually do something about the situation.
This is the stupidest thing I have read in this thread. Congrats.
Imagine telling a North Korean defector that they should be punished after escaping to South Korea, because they're technically still a citizen of the North Korea.
Also, i don't think that is how stuff currently works. Afaik Russians aren't generally sanctioned. There is a list of criminals involved in the war who are sanctioned, and of course transactions into Russia are sanctioned. But i have yet to hear of any rule that prevents companies from hiring normal Russians who are legally within a European country. Maybe if there is some national security aspect involved? But i don't know anything about that.
No company would ever hire a Russian these days, unless they don’t have any choice.
On February 12 2024 22:14 ZeroByte13 wrote: So I guess you should also be fired if your relative committed a crime? After all you represent your family, even if you don’t agree with what your relative did. And you have much, much more influence over your family compared to your country - so probably you should be punished even more.
This should be a society's way to show that it doesn't agree with what your relative did. Doesn't sound like discrimination at all. Got it.
Its not comparable.. a family and a country is two completely different things…
Other countries need a way to show that they dont agree. And the easiest/best way is to «punish» the people that represent the country they oppose. Putting pressure on the people to actually do something about the situation.
This is the stupidest thing I have read in this thread. Congrats.
Imagine telling a North Korean defector that they should be punished after escaping to South Korea, because they're technically still a citizen of the North Korea.
You obviously didn’t understand what I tried to say then. English is not my preferred language, so misunderstandings is to be expected.
I’m not saying that they should be actively punished. I’m saying that you should expect to be treated differently if you come from a country that has gone to war and invaded another country. Because putting pressure on the people is the most effective solution.
Well you literally wrote the following:
And the easiest/best way is to «punish» the people that represent the country they oppose.
So I'm not sure how else should it be interpreted. Just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding again, are you saying that you don't support this, but it's understandable/expected? Regardless, I disagree.
As for it being the most effective solution, how do you figure that? Why would putting pressure, or whatever the hell that means, on random Russian expats be more effective than the government sanctions that were already placed on Russia?
The Allies getting a bunch of German/ Jewish German scientists was nothing but good for them and very much bad for the tyrannical regime from where they fled. I would think the same thing would apply- including those young men that fled the country rather than fight. I don't see any sensible reason to punish them for an act that is clearly in opposition to Russia' war effort. Individualism was supposed to be a hallmark of the liberal west after all...
On February 12 2024 22:14 ZeroByte13 wrote: So I guess you should also be fired if your relative committed a crime? After all you represent your family, even if you don’t agree with what your relative did. And you have much, much more influence over your family compared to your country - so probably you should be punished even more.
This should be a society's way to show that it doesn't agree with what your relative did. Doesn't sound like discrimination at all. Got it.
Its not comparable.. a family and a country is two completely different things…
Other countries need a way to show that they dont agree. And the easiest/best way is to «punish» the people that represent the country they oppose. Putting pressure on the people to actually do something about the situation.
This is the stupidest thing I have read in this thread. Congrats.
Imagine telling a North Korean defector that they should be punished after escaping to South Korea, because they're technically still a citizen of the North Korea.
Also, i don't think that is how stuff currently works. Afaik Russians aren't generally sanctioned. There is a list of criminals involved in the war who are sanctioned, and of course transactions into Russia are sanctioned. But i have yet to hear of any rule that prevents companies from hiring normal Russians who are legally within a European country. Maybe if there is some national security aspect involved? But i don't know anything about that.
No company would ever hire a Russian these days, unless they don’t have any choice.
Source your fact.
Well, from my experience I can say that companies have been terminating contracts with Russian and Belarusian employees at some of the places I worked at. Not all of them though, if they were working from other countries, like Poland, they were fine (sometimes) but for anyone residing in Belarus or Russia the news wasn't good.
Edit: I guess this might be somewhat specific to the IT field since most contracts are B2B and for the US companies this would mean conducing business with companies registered in countries under sanctions.
In other news there have been some interesting reports coming in. European countries have supposedly tripled their artillery shell production (UK has increased their 155mm shell production 8x) and Ukraine is slated to receive plenty of shells this year (1 million shells to be delivered over the next 3 months from various sources, including Japan).
On the Russian side there are more and more reports coming in that they're increasingly using Starlink since it does cover big chunks of occupied territories.
On February 13 2024 16:39 Manit0u wrote: Well, from my experience I can say that companies have been terminating contracts with Russian and Belarusian employees at some of the places I worked at. Not all of them though, if they were working from other countries, like Poland, they were fine (sometimes) but for anyone residing in Belarus or Russia the news wasn't good.
Edit: I guess this might be somewhat specific to the IT field since most contracts are B2B and for the US companies this would mean conducing business with companies registered in countries under sanctions.
Not working with legal entities in Russia is totally understandable and expected. I am residing not in Russia or Belarus but in Sweden, and I have been work for Swedish company for years now.
My friends (IT) moved to Poland and they say Polish IT companies are very happy to have influx of high-level specialists from Russia, they don't care about their citizenship at all as long as they're not connected to any legal entity in Russia. It might be their specific situation, probably they can't speak for entirety of Polish IT landscape, but this was their impression.
Exhausted Ukraine struggles to find new men for front line
When Pavlo Zhilin and his patrol hit the streets of Cherkasy, men often swerve to avoid them.
Pavlo is a conscription officer looking for soldiers for Ukraine's army.
But almost two years into Russia's full-scale invasion, there's no flood of volunteers to the front line anymore.
Most of those who wanted to fight are either dead, injured or still stuck at the front waiting to be relieved by new recruits.
In the central town of Cherkasy, like elsewhere, finding them isn't easy now that the first burst of enthusiasm and energy has faded.
Ukraine is exhausted.
----------------
"I don't get it. People are out and about, like the war is somewhere far away. But this is a full-scale invasion, and it's like people still don't care," Pavlo says.
He is frustrated by what he sees as indifference.
"We need everyone to come together like they did on the first day. Everyone was united then, like brothers."
Instead, the security service in Cherkasy is constantly shutting down local social media channels that warn people when the conscription teams are in town and alert them to areas to avoid.
---------------
"One day, their children will ask what they did during the war, when the men were fighting. When they reply, 'I was hiding,' then they'll plummet in the children's eyes," Pavlo says firmly.
And yet the price Ukraine is paying to defend itself is already immense.
When I ask Pavlo whether he's lost friends in the fighting, he admits that there's "almost no one left" from his entire company.
"The only ones left are [injured] like me. The others are dead"
Interesting articles being published on BBC platforms the past day regarding and offering a (BBC) view into the current conscription situation inside Ukraine. Some of the videos posted a week ago have been edited but their journalists have been sticking to this subject/angle.
There is a clear rift forming between communities in Western Ukraine in particular that feel that they have given enough men already and the families of the soldiers whos fathers/brothers/husbands have been at the front lines for two years now but cannot be rotated out because of manpower shortages. And the third group both parties hate of rich healthy men paying off conscription officers
EPT
