EPTRusso-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 37
| Forum Index > General Forum |
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
Dan HH
Romania9217 Posts
On March 08 2022 00:59 JimmiC wrote: Russian going full fascist just in case it was not obvious enough to everyone with making the Z their symbol. It makes the whole de-Nazification so ridiculous when they are copying his moves. I also think Putin is more trying to make himself a Tsar then get back to the USSR, he is much more involved with the Russian orthodox church and is probably believing or at least projecting that he is chosen by god to take back the empire. Sorry but this is some "art school rejection" / "one testicle" level of armchair psychoanalysis, why does everything need to have a singular silly cause? | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
KwarK
United States44136 Posts
On March 08 2022 00:59 JimmiC wrote: Russian going full fascist just in case it was not obvious enough to everyone with making the Z their symbol. It makes the whole de-Nazification so ridiculous when they are copying his moves. I also think Putin is more trying to make himself a Tsar then get back to the USSR, he is much more involved with the Russian orthodox church and is probably believing or at least projecting that he is chosen by god to take back the empire. I believe the west should up the brinkmanship and at the very least make sure these sanctions last long past the invasion. As soon as he Putin can take more land I'm sure he will. https://ca.yahoo.com/news/putin-world-war-z-created-120859898.html On August 14 2008 13:13 KwarK wrote: One interesting thing to think about is whether modern Russia is a fascist state. Fascism has always been tricky to describe. However I'll attempt to describe it as a popular nationalist movement, created by poor economic conditions and a sudden loss of national power and prestige, materialised in a charismatic leader willing to engage in aggressive rhetoric with the wider world while using his popularity to override democratic safeguards and consolidate his position as a Fuhrer and resulting in outward expansion as the rhetoric snowballs and the nationalistic fire that is his support needs more fuel to keep it burning. Centralisation of power, direct central appointment of previously democratic positions, taking over the media and removing constitutional blocks on central power. Putin’s Russia has all of these. It's definitely an interesting line of thought. | ||
|
Vivax
22405 Posts
| ||
|
Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
Unless you include failed coups, then it's close to your description as the attempted coup wasn't military but militia led (iirc, kwark?). | ||
|
Deleted User 173346
16169 Posts
| ||
|
KwarK
United States44136 Posts
On March 08 2022 03:11 plasmidghost wrote: I understand this given how much energy Europe gets from Russia. Is there a possibility Putin either suspends pipelines to Europe or jacks up the prices a ridiculous amount? That would force Germany to go elsewhere. Not a smart move. If your only leverage is that they buy something from you then forcing them to buy from someone else reduces your leverage. Right now Germany is dependent but the infrastructure to become less dependent could be created if forced. | ||
|
KwarK
United States44136 Posts
On March 08 2022 03:08 Artisreal wrote: Germany? Unless you include failed coups, then it's close to your description as the attempted coup wasn't military but militia led (iirc, kwark?). I agree, Germany is an obvious counter example. The military establishment was a relatively persistent opposition to the Nazis. They had a planned coup at Munich if Chamberlain stood his ground and they kept trying to kill Hitler through the war. The night of long knives was, in a large part, to reassure the military establishment that they weren’t being displaced by Rohm. I would certainly not characterize Hitler’s rise as a military takeover. | ||
|
RvB
Netherlands6288 Posts
| ||
|
Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
Demands by kremlin are ridiculous, for Zelensky accepting such demands will be a political suicide, ukrainians will not support either. I won't even be able to find a single person in Ukraine who wants to get into "green corridor" to Russia or Belarus as well. We don't want to live in a social/economical/political shithole kremlin is trying to build for themselves Crimea is Ukraine, Donetsk and Luhansk are also in Ukraine. It's just bizzare to think that the biggest country in the world demands even more land for some rational reasons. Demanding something while continuing to shell civilians is a hypocrisy. Accepting kremlin demands will never happen, just deal with it | ||
|
r00ty
Germany1080 Posts
Natural gas was lobbied and subsidised so hard over here, it's lot cleaner than coal afterall and the Russians were "on their way to become a reliable partner". Laws were made to advertise natural gas, which gave me a cozy clerk job in energy management for sure, i might have some minor insights: + Show Spoiler + Many factories have their own little natural gas power plants (BHKW), they are a money printing machine, when you can use all the energy and heat it produces. There's special laws for those, where the company basically gets most energy taxes back, when you manage your energy responsibly and are able to prove you incentivise energy savings, putting the numbers together and checking the bills was my job. The factory i worked at took a 1/3 of it's power and all of the steam (we needed lots of steam) and most of the heating out of a 380kW natural gas BHKW. Our average consumption during production was around 1200-1400kWh with peaks of up to 2200kWh. The company next door had 2 even bigger ones. The gas contracts were always renegotiated every 2 years. But i guess, that will have already changed, there were clauses... Most are integrated into the network, which had to be adapted, infrastructure was changed. We needed to coordinate with our energy supplier, because if that thing just shut off and we switched all the stuff it supplied to backup electric it's good for them to know, because they need to adapt. If that happens on a larger scale, they are fucked and the network will become unstable. tl:dr I think, if the gas stops coming, there will be blackouts and/or certain production will be halted or the network will become unstable I could take it and would. Fuck Putin. | ||
|
Dan HH
Romania9217 Posts
On March 08 2022 04:26 r00ty wrote: Shutting down the Russian gas supply would be felt everywhere maybe immediately. Politicians say no one has to panic, it lasts for a year, but that just can't be true. Natural gas was lobbied and subsidised so hard over here, it's lot cleaner than coal afterall and the Russians were "on their way to become a reliable partner". Laws were made to advertise natural gas, which gave me a cozy clerk job in energy management for sure, i might have some minor insights: + Show Spoiler + Many factories have their own little gas power plants (BHKW), they are a money printing machine, when you can use all the energy and heat it produces. There's special laws for those, where the company basically gets most energy taxes back, when you manage your energy responsibly and are able to prove you incentivise energy savings, putting the numbers together and checking the bills was my job. The factory i worked at took a 1/3 of it's power and all of the steam (we needed lots of steam) and most of the heating out of a 380kW natural gas BHKW. Our average consumption during production was around 1200-1400kWh with peaks of up the 2200kWh. The company next door had 2 even bigger ones. The gas contracts were always renegotiated every 2 years. But i guess, that will have already changed, there were clauses... Most are integrated into the network, which had to be adapted, infrastructure was changed. We needed to coordinate with our energy supplier, because if that thing just shut off and we switched all the stuff it supplied to backup electric it's good for them to know, because they need to adapt. If that happens on a larger scale, they are fucked and the network will become unstable. tl:dr I think, if the gas stops coming, there will be blackouts and/or certain production will be halted or the network will become unstable I could take it and would. Fuck Putin. As RvB pointed out, the euros paid for that gas is what's keeping the ruble from going full Zimbabwe. It would make no sense for them to sever their own limbs so an "unfriendly" country loses a finger. But then again, invading Ukraine made no sense either. | ||
|
Acrofales
Spain18335 Posts
On March 08 2022 04:48 Dan HH wrote: As RvB pointed out, the euros paid for that gas is what's keeping the ruble from going full Zimbabwe. It would make no sense for them to sever their own limbs so an "unfriendly" country loses a finger. But then again, invading Ukraine made no sense either. I think what r00ty was trying to say is that he'd be willing to take the economic hardship from Germany refusing to buy Russian gas, not Putin refusing to sell it. I'm wondering how much Europe can ramp up imports from Algeria. Right now the pipeline through Morocco is closed because of the political mess between Spain and Morocco (and Morocco and Algeria). But that seems like something that can be smoothed over. I don't know how far that'll go, but maybe Europe can scrounge together enough gas from Africa, the Middle East and maybe the US to at least not freeze to death next two winters. Three years should be enough to have entirely alternative solutions set up. | ||
|
r00ty
Germany1080 Posts
On March 08 2022 05:15 Acrofales wrote: I think what r00ty was trying to say is that he'd be willing to take the economic hardship from Germany refusing to buy Russian gas, not Putin refusing to sell it. Yeah sorry for being unclear. Unfortunately not everybody has that luxury. I can pay 4€ per litre of gas, it was 2,12€ (Super E95) today, rising hourly. But then I don't drive much. Other people can't afford that. But we made bad strategic decisions and will pay the price. Nothing compared to the price the people of Ukraine have already paid. I start loosing compassion for the Russian boys who get sent to their death, not good, but it is what it is. This is so senseless. On March 08 2022 05:15 Acrofales wrote: + Show Spoiler + I'm wondering how much Europe can ramp up imports from Algeria. Right now the pipeline through Morocco is closed because of the political mess between Spain and Morocco (and Morocco and Algeria). But that seems like something that can be smoothed over. I don't know how far that'll go, but maybe Europe can scrounge together enough gas from Africa, the Middle East and maybe the US to at least not freeze to death next two winters. Three years should be enough to have entirely alternative solutions set up. If Biden really contacted Venezuela, a lot seems possible. Our tech suppliers for the oil industry will be happy to help, they have spare capacities at the moment. :/ I personally don't use natural gas, because i did not want Putin or Katar as a supplier. Politics aside, it would have been a good transition source. | ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12130 Posts
On March 08 2022 05:15 Acrofales wrote: I think what r00ty was trying to say is that he'd be willing to take the economic hardship from Germany refusing to buy Russian gas, not Putin refusing to sell it. I'm wondering how much Europe can ramp up imports from Algeria. Right now the pipeline through Morocco is closed because of the political mess between Spain and Morocco (and Morocco and Algeria). But that seems like something that can be smoothed over. I don't know how far that'll go, but maybe Europe can scrounge together enough gas from Africa, the Middle East and maybe the US to at least not freeze to death next two winters. Three years should be enough to have entirely alternative solutions set up. Check how much gas we take, then check how big ships are, we would need to get a shitload or two from elsewhere to just tip it with ships. And that's with the big if - if there's enough gas to be taken. They may not have much of free capacity around because they wanna sell to have them monies. | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16123 Posts
I don't know why the West hasn't just accepted that every country needs to be self sufficient for power. It's possible everywhere you just need to be creative and willing to spend the money to build it. Reliant on foreign fossil fuels is A: damaging to the environment, B: compromises you geopolitically, and C: enriches foreign powers instead of strengthening your own economy. It's just plain greed and laziness. It's one of the many ways the West has just gotten complacent in the mid to late 20th century. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On March 08 2022 06:31 Vindicare605 wrote: What's hilarious to me is that, these governments didn't see exactly what Putin was doing when he was getting them all warmed up to the prospect of cheap gas? They let their own greed get the better of them and didnt realize they were taking the devil's bargain with the pipelines. Putin gets rich and enhances his own wealth, power and army off of their desire for cheap power and heating. I don't know why the West hasn't just accepted that every country needs to be self sufficient for power. It's possible everywhere you just need to be creative and willing to spend the money to build it. Reliant on foreign fossil fuels is A: damaging to the environment, B: compromises you geopolitically, and C: enriches foreign powers instead of strengthening your own economy. It's just plain greed and laziness. It's one of the many ways the West has just gotten complacent in the mid to late 20th century. And politics. Apparently is good for the enviroment to not produce gas/oil locally, but it's ok to buy gas/oil from evil dictators and/or purchase goods from nations that have a competitive advantage because of cheaper energy. The US government will try to sell that the gas price is solely due to Putin and war, but the new administration has been chocking US domestic production since january and prices have been rising since. | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16123 Posts
On March 08 2022 06:48 GoTuNk! wrote: And politics. Apparently is good for the enviroment to not produce gas/oil locally, but it's ok to buy gas/oil from evil dictators and/or purchase goods from nations that have a competitive advantage because of cheaper energy. The US government will try to sell that the gas price is solely due to Putin and war, but the new administration has been chocking US domestic production since january and prices have been rising since. It's fucked in the US because we export a TON of the fuel that we produce but then we turn around and buy CHEAPER fuel from elsewhere. We're the worst example of exactly what I'm talking about. We are MORE than capable of making ourselves energy independent. We just aren't because the oil companies know they can get a better price for their product in Japan so like 70% of what we're destroying Alaska to produce gets shipped to Japan, it's fucking ridiculous. I really hope this conflict helps to put into perspective why it's in everyone's best interest (just like it has been for the last 50 years) to END this reliance on cheap foreign fossil fuels. It's a lot more expensive in the long run if you look at everything that it impacts. | ||
| ||
