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On March 03 2022 10:06 Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2022 07:26 FreakyDroid wrote:On March 03 2022 04:16 Sadist wrote:On March 03 2022 04:07 Mohdoo wrote:Since the next phase of the war would essentially just be slaughtering people, and Europe is already supplying weapons and stuff, I can't help but assume/hope some country(s) will actually fight with Russia. With everything that has happened so far, it feels inconceivable Europe would just watch Ukraine get wiped out. I dont think it happens. Nuclear weapons are a serious detractor. I dont think you can blame anyone for being hesitant to have direct confrontation with Russia. Well there is another way, but it has to come from inside Russia. If people there decide to overthrow Putin, they can stop this. I dont see how Nato or EU can get involved without escalating into a World war or possibly a nuclear war. This Putin dude is insane, but probably not that insane to bomb his own people. You'd be surpised how many great citizens of Russia suffered because of this maniac. He literally blew his citizens in civil houses in order to take more control through new "antiterrorist laws". Just out of curiousty google "Ryazan sugarbags". In addition: Beslan, Nord-Ost (free russian media was captured during those period), the state killed multiple journalists (Vlad Listyev was one of those during mid/late 90s; Arkhan Jemal - free journalist from Chechnya was killed alongside 2 colleagues during investigation of Vagner group activity and influence on "civil war" in Congo, that was a couple of years ago). Multiple poisonings: Litvanenko was probably the biggest screamer, I advise you to take a look at this doc on youtube, Skripal family, Alexey Navanly. Cold blood assasination of incredible Boris Nemtsov. That's just a tip of iceberg. In regards to my current situation, on a 3rd day of rocket strikes we could not take it anymore. The horror of flying jets and rockets in our sky is just hard to describe. Grads, artillery and gunfire is just nothing in comparison. Unfortunately I cannot enter territorial defence and cannot get my gun, so the choice was either to stay and wait if our home will get bombarded or trying to evacuate. We decided the latter by the train. It was a challenge to get on. Do you remember Titanic evacuation scene? Our was uglier but w/o casualties fortunately. My family and two cats are almost in Kyiv and we are moving to the western border of Ukraine passing by out capital. I've also convinced 6 if my friends to join us, they are evacuating as well, but on another train. Trains are stacked with people af, and we are tired so much after a week of hell. Lost a few kilos already due to stress and lack of appetite. They still continuing shelling my beautiful city targeting civilians, infrastructure, supermarkets. Today they shot at an old cathedral in the center if the city, dropped rockets on civil governmental buildings and one of the buildings of Karazin university. I'm so pissed of that, what a morons and barbarians. They does it during the night as well... So my biggest dream for now is to comeback to Kharkiv once it's over, to bring fundings for restoration and rebuild the city, make it even better, make it even more open for international public. I'll work on my own project and will share this idea with you guys to get some criticism. Hoping to get funds for such purposes from the west, but most importantly from reparations, this is fair. What disturbs me the most is safety of my elders (mom, dad, grandmom) as they decided to stay. I worry for them and hoping to see them again, hoping they will be lucky and safe. I advised them to move to our familty apartment while we are absent, as it looks like safer place in comparison, plus we stored food/water supply in advance. Fingers crossed for the best!
That is just horrific for anyone to have to endure. Please let us know when/if you are safe!!
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Seems a lot of people are leaving Russia.
Until this weekend, the daily high-speed trains from St. Petersburg to Helsinki would typically transport far fewer than the several hundred passengers each could accommodate. But on Saturday, a wave of travelers looking to leave Russia started packing trains destined for Finland.
“We’ve had full trains from St. Petersburg from Sunday onward,” Topi Simola, the senior vice president of passenger services at Finnish Railways, said in a telephone interview.
“They are leaving for good,” he said. “You can see that from the luggage they carry.”
Tatjana Erofgeva, who lives in Budapest, was visiting relatives in Russia when the invasion started, according to the Finnish newspaper Hufvudstadsbladet. She took the morning train to Helsinki on Monday.
“It was the only way out of Russia,” Ms. Erofgeva was quoted as saying, noting that many countries had closed their airspace to Russian flights since the invasion of Ukraine last Thursday.
The Allegro line takes 3.5 hours to travel the roughly 250 miles from St. Petersburg to Helsinki. The service is a joint venture between the Finnish VR Group and Russian Railways, which are both state-owned companies.
The line was suspended during the pandemic, but started running again at half capacity in December. Two trains leave St. Petersburg a day, and tickets are only available to Finnish and Russian nationals.
“This route is an important way out of Russia,” Mr. Simola, the Finnish rail official, said, and his organization was negotiating with Russian Railways to increase service, aiming eventually to resume the prepandemic schedule of four trips a day.
A Russian who stepped off the train in Helsinki on Tuesday evening told the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet that many people back home, including friends, were having a difficult time leaving the country because so many Russians do not have passports.
“Many are afraid because of the economic situation,” said the man, who was identified only by his first name, Anton.
“A lot of Russians don’t support the war and are trying to protest,” he told the newspaper. “But unfortunately the police are quite tough now.”
Source
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I really do have to wonder when Russia's economy collapses. It hurts knowing all the people in Russia that are protesting the war at great risk of police detention and violence are about to be screwed in so many different ways.
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United States42691 Posts
He’s not wrong. In a global economy there is integration in the name of optimization. If I’m really good at making steel and you’re really good at making machinery from steel then it makes sense to work together rather than trying to do everything alone. This creates enormous strategic risks from external reliance. That’s one of the reasons that the EU insists on Airbus etc., they’re not willing to become dependent on Boeing. They’d rather pay more to retain strategic capabilities within Europe. Russia has become very integrated in the last 30 years due to its exceptional natural gas production, there is absolutely no advantage to Russia not specializing and trading, they have gas, other people have stuff they want and need gas.
Normally if you’re cut off from one global partner you can find another. If you refine petrol and your country sanctions Venezuela then you’ll buy more crude from Nigeria and someone else will buy more crude from Venezuela and collectively we all work around the restrictions. But the degree to which Russia has managed to piss off everyone at the same time is somewhat unprecedented. That and the politicization of SWIFT. SWIFT is essentially a global utility.
If Mr Burns started turning off the power of voters in Springfield who opposed his plan to become mayor we would presumably think that was an abuse of his control over a utility. But we wouldn’t necessarily find it that easy to compel him not to, he controls the power station and there’s nothing in the constitution guaranteeing the right to electricity. It effectively gives him a nuclear (pun intended) option. He could refuse to supply power to your house indefinitely and in doing so bankrupt you, you couldn’t even move away because who would buy a house that can’t ever get electricity. SWIFT is a more powerful version of that, it’s not treated as an international utility with guaranteed access to all banks because the historical framework doesn’t exist to produce such a thing. There is zero recourse for Russia because there is no entity for them to plead their case to that can compel SWIFT to work with them. They have to build an alternative and it’s about as feasible as Homer building his own backyard power plant.
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Economic ruin is worst case for Russia (throw in population decline, as well). Im scared what to think Putin is capable of when he starts seeing the writing in the wall.
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Sometimes i wonder. In 50 years from now will history look upon the collapse of the USSR in a somewhat similar way as we now look at the treaty of versailles?
Its a completely different event and follow up obviously but there are some similarities as well. The collapse of a great nation unfolding in such a way that it leaves a huge scar which eventually leads to a strong desire to return to its former glory.
Instead of making sure that the transition would lead to proper thriving democracys (like with germany at the end of ww2 or the former eastern european nations now part of the eu). Everyone (including the west) was happy to benefit from the firesale of assets and placing most of them in the hands of a few oligarchs. While neglecting to make sure a thriving democracy could rise.
The only former soviet states that the west really did help to make this transformation into a healthy and thriving democracy where the baltic states. All other regions including Russia itself got neglected.
Its hindsight but there is nothing wrong with reflecting on the past in the hope to learn something for the future. 1990-1995 was a golden opportunity for democracy. Now the west is back in the cold war,facing off against a Russian/Chinese block which supports eachoter in their geo-political ambitions.
Anyway,this is not to blame or value-judge anything or anyone. Its no doubt more complicated then i described above and maybe there where other elements in play that did prevent a better outcome. It an observation from a distance that could very well be completely wrong.
About the conflict unfolding now i dont have much to say,other then that it is absolutely horrible and that i do hope it ends soon.
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Northern Ireland25339 Posts
On March 03 2022 13:04 pmh wrote:
Sometimes i wonder. In 50 years from now will history look upon the collapse of the USSR in a somewhat similar way as we now look at the treaty of versailles?
Its a completely different event and follow up obviously but there are some similarities as well. The collapse of a great nation unfolding in such a way that it leaves a huge scar which eventually leads to a strong desire to return to its former glory.
Instead of making sure that the transition would lead to proper thriving democracys (like with germany at the end of ww2 or the former eastern european nations now part of the eu). Everyone (including the west) was happy to benefit from the firesale of assets and placing most of them in the hands of a few oligarchs. While neglecting to make sure a thriving democracy could rise.
The only former soviet states that the west really did help to make this transformation into a healthy and thriving democracy where the baltic states. All other regions including Russia itself got neglected.
Its hindsight but there is nothing wrong with reflecting on the past in the hope to learn something for the future. 1990-1995 was a golden opportunity for democracy. Now the west is back in the cold war,facing off against a Russian/Chinese block which supports eachoter in their geo-political ambitions.
Anyway,this is not to blame or value-judge anything or anyone. Its no doubt more complicated then i described above and maybe there where other elements in play that did prevent a better outcome. It an observation from a distance that could very well be completely wrong.
About the conflict unfolding now i dont have much to say,other then that it is absolutely horrible and that i do hope it ends soon.
An interesting point, I’ve said/heard variants of it before. With the (I hope) obvious proviso that my post is absolutely, unequivocally not any kind of justification for Russia’s abhorrent current course.
It sure looks it, from the outside. A similar, albeit different process from China. Essentially do your thing, regardless of what that thing is, as long as the money’s flowing and you’re not too disruptive.
The problem Russia is having is they’re not China. They’re at least vulnerable to being sanctioned, I’m not sure even if the will WAS there that China would even be subject to change tack if that pressure was applied.
The rebuilding of Europe to its cordial state of affairs now, and reasonably flourishing democracy and civic society, especially if we look at its history is, still taken for granted.
It’s one of the miracles of post-conflict resolution and a shared sense of democracy and conviviality at a continental level, done on a relatively mutual level.
I feel it’s still taken for granted, massively. Be it reconciling enmity, and relatively quickly in the post WW2 period, or softening the fall of the breakup of the Soviet Union.
It’s clearly possible, to spread and inculcate certain values and behaviours, the template is pretty obvious. It’s that ‘mutual’ part of ‘mutually beneficial’.
I’m unsure if Russia was extended that hand, or if at best it was an acquaintanceship of grudging convenience. The Iraqis weren’t exactly buying what we in the West were selling, or the Vietnamese, or the Afghans, or Syrians
Brazil seems to be moving in a worrying direction under Bolsanaro, the less said about Modi in India the better.
Outside of the clear successes in Western/Eastern Europe the wider spread of transition into functioning democracies that respect the rights of citizens internally is, pretty fucking bad. In some places it’s regressed.
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You seem to view (a functional) democracy as the paradigm humans should unite under, while I do not necessarily agree with that notion.
Cultural relativity will always be a thing and I'm too stupid to explain to you in detail how it relates to power structures, but I know it does. That's why I dislike donating money to Oxfam or whatever so that "we" can educate or help "them" - wherever "they" live in the world - on our enlightened principles like schooling females and stopping circumcisions. I'm not saying those are good things to practice, I'm saying our framework of doing things a la cultural emperialism is wrong and we have no place imposing our values onto other cultures.
That's also the reason I can't comment on how coutries likd Russia or China or Brazil are supposed to work outside of my own comfortable democratic framework. I do not know nearly enough about their current and historical contexts to start proposing alternatives that will "fix" them, other than spouting "DEMOCRACY!" either, but it seems a bit defeating when I couldn't say why it's better, other than: it worked for us (a very cynical worked mind you), it should work for them!
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I agree that cultures should self determine as much as possible, but on the other hand we have to consider the oppressed, voiceless, and disenfranchised. Maybe simply imposing democracy is not a universal answer, however "I got mine, good luck to you who are crushed under the boot" doesn't seem right in today's world either. I know my country has a history though for speaking of high minded intentions while screwing other countries over, although we aren't alone in that.
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On March 03 2022 16:15 Uldridge wrote:
You seem to view (a functional) democracy as the paradigm humans should unite under, while I do not necessarily agree with that notion.
Cultural relativity will always be a thing and I'm too stupid to explain to you in detail how it relates to power structures, but I know it does. That's why I dislike donating money to Oxfam or whatever so that "we" can educate or help "them" - wherever "they" live in the world - on our enlightened principles like schooling females and stopping circumcisions. I'm not saying those are good things to practice, I'm saying our framework of doing things a la cultural emperialism is wrong and we have no place imposing our values onto other cultures.
That's also the reason I can't comment on how coutries likd Russia or China or Brazil are supposed to work outside of my own comfortable democratic framework. I do not know nearly enough about their current and historical contexts to start proposing alternatives that will "fix" them, other than spouting "DEMOCRACY!" either, but it seems a bit defeating when I couldn't say why it's better, other than: it worked for us (a very cynical worked mind you), it should work for them!
Democracy is better than other forms of government, because it gives the people in the nation being governed a voice on how they want to be governed that doesn't require violent revolt.
A dictatorship (or monarchy) is probably a better form of government for getting things done, because it concentrates the power. However, if people within the country generally agree that the things getting done are bad, it also generally means they have no recourse to stop the government from doing them without revolt. And, of course, comes with all the problems of having all the power concentrated makes people believe they have some right to have all that power. So why shouldn't their child, protégé, or friend take over when they die, meaning that this doesn't usually even end upon the death of the absolute ruler.
Democracy provides an alternative by distributing the power. It isn't a question of culture whether that is better, but rather of human nature. Sure, it's a matter of culture, building institutions, etc. to make democracies work.
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On March 03 2022 10:06 Dav1oN wrote:
You'd be surpised how many great citizens of Russia suffered because of this maniac. He literally blew his citizens in civil houses in order to take more control through new "antiterrorist laws". Just out of curiousty google "Ryazan sugarbags".
In addition: Beslan, Nord-Ost (free russian media was captured during those period), the state killed multiple journalists (Vlad Listyev was one of those during mid/late 90s; Arkhan Jemal - free journalist from Chechnya was killed alongside 2 colleagues during investigation of Vagner group activity and influence on "civil war" in Congo, that was a couple of years ago). Multiple poisonings: Litvanenko was probably the biggest screamer, I advise you to take a look at this doc on youtube, Skripal family, Alexey Navanly. Cold blood assasination of incredible Boris Nemtsov. That's just a tip of iceberg.
In regards to my current situation, on a 3rd day of rocket strikes we could not take it anymore. The horror of flying jets and rockets in our sky is just hard to describe. Grads, artillery and gunfire is just nothing in comparison. Unfortunately I cannot enter territorial defence and cannot get my gun, so the choice was either to stay and wait if our home will get bombarded or trying to evacuate. We decided the latter by the train. It was a challenge to get on. Do you remember Titanic evacuation scene? Our was uglier but w/o casualties fortunately. My family and two cats are almost in Kyiv and we are moving to the western border of Ukraine passing by out capital. I've also convinced 6 if my friends to join us, they are evacuating as well, but on another train. Trains are stacked with people af, and we are tired so much after a week of hell. Lost a few kilos already due to stress and lack of appetite.
They still continuing shelling my beautiful city targeting civilians, infrastructure, supermarkets. Today they shot at an old cathedral in the center if the city, dropped rockets on civil governmental buildings and one of the buildings of Karazin university. I'm so pissed of that, what a morons and barbarians. They does it during the night as well...
So my biggest dream for now is to comeback to Kharkiv once it's over, to bring fundings for restoration and rebuild the city, make it even better, make it even more open for international public. I'll work on my own project and will share this idea with you guys to get some criticism. Hoping to get funds for such purposes from the west, but most importantly from reparations, this is fair.
What disturbs me the most is safety of my elders (mom, dad, grandmom) as they decided to stay. I worry for them and hoping to see them again, hoping they will be lucky and safe. I advised them to move to our familty apartment while we are absent, as it looks like safer place in comparison, plus we stored food/water supply in advance.
Fingers crossed for the best!
Shit, nobody deserves what you're going through. Wishing you, your family, and all Ukrainian citizens the best.
Also wishing Putin gets what's coming to him, though I doubt he will. The biggest political assholes always seem to find a way to make themselves untouchable. It's infuriating that no matter what the outcome is in Ukraine, he's still kicking his own citizens in the collective balls. The very people he's supposed to be leading and protecting have already been condemned to a collapsing economy because of his spite and arrogance. I'll be crossing my fingers for all the people in Russia that had nothing to do with this madness, too.
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Why do the United States and Europe hate China。
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On March 03 2022 16:51 [JXSA].Zergling wrote:
Why do the United States and Europe hate China。
They don't. Also, off topic?
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On March 03 2022 16:52 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2022 16:51 [JXSA].Zergling wrote:
Why do the United States and Europe hate China。 They don't. Also, off topic?
Our news reports in China show that we are hated by the United States and Europe。
If Russia collapses, China is the only enemy of the United States
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The Chinese people also do not want war to happen. The Chinese people also do not want Russia to attack Ukraine.
But why didn't the United States sanction the United States when the Americans beat Iraq?
The United States provoked many wars.
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Northern Ireland25339 Posts
On March 03 2022 16:15 Uldridge wrote:
You seem to view (a functional) democracy as the paradigm humans should unite under, while I do not necessarily agree with that notion.
Cultural relativity will always be a thing and I'm too stupid to explain to you in detail how it relates to power structures, but I know it does. That's why I dislike donating money to Oxfam or whatever so that "we" can educate or help "them" - wherever "they" live in the world - on our enlightened principles like schooling females and stopping circumcisions. I'm not saying those are good things to practice, I'm saying our framework of doing things a la cultural emperialism is wrong and we have no place imposing our values onto other cultures.
That's also the reason I can't comment on how coutries likd Russia or China or Brazil are supposed to work outside of my own comfortable democratic framework. I do not know nearly enough about their current and historical contexts to start proposing alternatives that will "fix" them, other than spouting "DEMOCRACY!" either, but it seems a bit defeating when I couldn't say why it's better, other than: it worked for us (a very cynical worked mind you), it should work for them!
Interesting to ponder, I’ll skip a lot of the, admittedly interesting points raised for the sake of not derailing the thread.
Specifically as per the Russian example, the hypothetical was more if they had been treated more like the countries that constitute the modern EU, it would have, to some degree been a natural occurrence of mutual benefit.
It’s not purely a matter of democracy good either, although by and large I believe it to be. There is the former USSR transitioning to capitalism, and indeed the evolution of capitalism since to being ever more interconnected.
I don’t think it’s coincidental that a country that went from one of two superpowers, to a distant also-ran in innumerable metrics compared to even middle of the pack single European nations, within my lifetime is now invading other sovereign nations.
Such a decline in prestige is rather fertile ground for expansionist nationalistic fervour to take hold. The average German isn’t pining for the days of the Third Reich because they’re living a rather preferable life in their current incarnation.
And to make it clear, I am aware that many Russians, including some of our Liquidian brethren are against this conflict.
If anyone more learned would have any recommendations of books on the breakup of the USSR, the oligarch class or things in that domain, or anything pertaining to recent history of this conflict by the way, do feel free to post (or ideally PM me to avoid further derailing).
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Our news reports in China show that we are hated by the United States and Europe。
If Russia collapses, China is the only enemy of the United States
Propaganda. We dont.
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When the United States bombed the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, western countries were collectively silent.
When the United States bombed Afghanistan, western countries were collectively silent.
When the United States bombed Iraq, western countries were collectively silent.
When the United States bombed Libya, western countries were collectively silent.
When the United States bombed Syria, western countries were collectively silent.
When the United States bombed Somalia, western countries were collectively silent.
When Russia attacked Ukraine, western countries collectively voiced their opposition to the war.
Even Switzerland, which claims to be permanently neutral, jumped out and frozen Russian funds.
User was warned for this post.
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On March 03 2022 17:10 [JXSA].Zergling wrote:
When the United States bombed the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, western countries were collectively silent.
When the United States bombed Afghanistan, western countries were collectively silent.
When the United States bombed Iraq, western countries were collectively silent.
When the United States bombed Libya, western countries were collectively silent.
When the United States bombed Syria, western countries were collectively silent.
When the United States bombed Somalia, western countries were collectively silent.
When Russia attacked Ukraine, western countries collectively voiced their opposition to the war.
Even Switzerland, which claims to be permanently neutral, jumped out and frozen Russian funds.
Serbia was commuting the biggest genicide in europe since thr holocaust.
Afghanistan was about removing the fucking Talibans, after 11/9.
Most western countries were absolutely not silent when the US invaded Irak.
Libya was a no fly zone because Ghadaffi was bombing his own population.
Are you even real about Syria?
The US never « bombed Somalia » and certainly never invaded it.
How dumb a post can you write.
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Northern Ireland25339 Posts
On March 03 2022 17:10 [JXSA].Zergling wrote:
When the United States bombed the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, western countries were collectively silent.
When the United States bombed Afghanistan, western countries were collectively silent.
When the United States bombed Iraq, western countries were collectively silent.
When the United States bombed Libya, western countries were collectively silent.
When the United States bombed Syria, western countries were collectively silent.
When the United States bombed Somalia, western countries were collectively silent.
When Russia attacked Ukraine, western countries collectively voiced their opposition to the war.
Even Switzerland, which claims to be permanently neutral, jumped out and frozen Russian funds.
What were China doing at these times exactly?
Whole chunks of the West’s constituent nations had nothing to do with any of these conflicts, and large numbers of people within the countries that did opposed many of these as well.
The response to this invasion is a positive thing.
The alternative is to go ‘oh well the U.K. and US went into Iraq, fair’s fair let’s let Russia have this one’ which is less hypocritical but equally a terrible fucking option.
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EPT
