EPTRusso-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 22
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Elroi
Sweden5595 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
Two crew members are on a life raft, four still missing. How many third party ships have already been hit during the fighting? And was I being stupidly naive when I thought that it would be fairly easy to distinguish between civilian ships and military vessels, especially if those ships themselves are flying their normal colours are not refusing to answer radio calls or such? Obviously this one is different with a mine, but the previous cases were various sorts of missles or gunfire. | ||
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[JXSA].Zergling
China186 Posts
Ukrainian forces shelled residential buildings, which the media chose to ignore. Similarly, reporting on China is also a double standard. As an ordinary Chinese, I do not support the Russian government or the Ukrainian government. I sympathize with the injured Ukrainian people. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25344 Posts
On March 03 2022 21:14 dudeee wrote: The west absolutely has moral high ground it's not even close. Why are all these west criticisers comparing Saddam Hussein to Volodymyr Zelenskyj? They always bring up iraq war and how west didnt massively sanction US or some stupid argument like its the same as russia invading ukraine. Saddam was a brutal dictator making ppl dissapear all the time and killing hundreds of thousands of people. Zelenskyj is a publicly elected president. Please tell me i'm missing something otherwise its just so incredicly dumb. I think the main issue with Iraq is, there was a clear humanitarian reason, not just domestically but in terms of Iraq stepping up atrocities outside it's borders to just get rid of Saddam during the first Gulf War. Instead that wasn't done until later, with dubious (and by dubious I mean totally false) rationales, in a manner that unleashed sectarian violence all over that area. I do think it's borderline imbecilic to talk about 'the West' in these terms though. What West? America and say, Finland, where's the commonality there? There's considerable relative cultural homogenisation and many shared values across the West sure, but there is significant, significant divergence in matters of foreign policy, as there is between nations in other regions of the world. Europe, some nations rather more than others took in rather a lot of refugees in the aftermath of the Syrian civil war, as indeed did some of the nations in closer geographic proximity. Plenty of other more culturally aligned, non-Western countries with wealth shirked that responsibility. Now we'll sadly see the mass displacement of people by war, this time in Europe, I just hope we can collectively help these people temporarily until they're back on their feet and, hopefully able to return to a country that isn't in ruins as soon as possible. I hope my own country, wider Europe and elsewhere can answer that call in this hour of need. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21687 Posts
On March 03 2022 22:27 Oukka wrote: I imagine the main issue is the 'over the horizon' range of modern combat.An Estonian cargo ship is sinking/has already sunk near Odessa. An explosion, apparently caused by hitting a mine. I've not seen any educated guesses/reporting of who had laid those mines. Two crew members are on a life raft, four still missing. How many third party ships have already been hit during the fighting? And was I being stupidly naive when I thought that it would be fairly easy to distinguish between civilian ships and military vessels, especially if those ships themselves are flying their normal colours are not refusing to answer radio calls or such? Obviously this one is different with a mine, but the previous cases were various sorts of missles or gunfire. By the time I can physically identify you are a cargo ship flying an Estonian flag, rather then a blip on a screen, you will have sunk my ship 100x over if your a hostile warship. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7890 Posts
On March 03 2022 22:31 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: Western media are double standards and not objective enough. Ukrainian forces shelled residential buildings, which the media chose to ignore. Similarly, reporting on China is also a double standard. As an ordinary Chinese, I do not support the Russian government or the Ukrainian government. I sympathize with the injured Ukrainian people. Source. | ||
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PhoenixVoid
Canada32740 Posts
Russia was already seeing a severe brain drain of its best and brightest, and it's surely going to be even worse now. A nearly worthless currency, a country being closed off from the world, and a shortening window for escape means panic from people who have the opportunity. This is also a great read on how the economic sanctions will reverberate throughout the world, including places and industries we may not be considering. This means the least developed countries will face food shortages because Russia and Ukraine are a major source of wheat exports, Tajikistan's economy will lose a major chunk of its remittances, and fertilizer costs will skyrocket because Russia exports a great deal of the potash and nitrogen that sustains global crop yields. | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
On March 03 2022 22:34 Gorsameth wrote: I imagine the main issue is the 'over the horizon' range of modern combat. By the time I can physically identify you are a cargo ship flying an Estonian flag, rather then a blip on a screen, you will have sunk my ship 100x over if your a hostile warship. That would make sense. But how is that compatible with general rules of engagement regarding knowing what you are pointing your weapons at? At least in theory ships should be only firing at targets they have identified to be hostile. Also friendly fire surely becomes an issue at some point if any blip on radar is a potential target, especially when operating under strict radio silence or similar. Appreciating the answer already and don't take the further questions as negative! I just don't have any understanding of how modern naval combat works. | ||
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r00ty
Germany1056 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On March 03 2022 22:50 Oukka wrote: Unsophisticated mines don't care about rules of engagement. There are some sophisticated ones though that can be programmed to do so. That would make sense. But how is that compatible with general rules of engagement regarding knowing what you are pointing your weapons at? At least in theory ships should be only firing at targets they have identified to be hostile. Also friendly fire surely becomes an issue at some point if any blip on radar is a potential target, especially when operating under strict radio silence or similar. Appreciating the answer already and don't take the further questions as negative! I just don't have any understanding of how modern naval combat works. Ships operating under a strict "radio" or "no radar" emissions would not be able to fire a missile at a target as they have no way to detect and track targets, except by receiving information from an external source, but that still can create emissions which can be blurred by background emissions. Doubtful that Russian ships has sophisticated networking capability anyways. They can still defend themselves from missiles using passive sensors. Some ships have sophisticated communication intelligence ie "listening" capabilities. Interrogator "blips" are sent for IFF to "blip" a response back. Friendly fire is not a problem in that if you are trying to avoid detection you generally wouldn't be firing any missiles at targets of opportunity anyways. Running silent is normally due to a fixed mission plan, not as a general operation in an area. Search, identification and track are the most important steps before firing a missile, shaped by general intelligence. | ||
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Legan
Finland406 Posts
If this analysis is correct, it is hard to see things changing fast in Russian army. They are not going to suddenly start having great maintenance on their equipment while stuck on muddy road. Even though this makes things look promising for Ukrainian army, it also feels that it could increase forcefulness of Russian army leadership even more. E: grammar | ||
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farvacola
United States18827 Posts
On March 03 2022 23:37 Legan wrote: The whole invasion looks so weird, when there are so many pictures that outside expert can analyze. For example, Russian army may not have done proper maintenance on their vehicles, especially their tires in this case, for long time. https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1499164245250002944 If this analysis correct, it is hard to see things changing fast in Russian army. They are not going to suddenly start having great maintenance on their equipment while stuck on muddy road. Even though this makes things look promising for Ukrainian army, it also feels that it could increase forcefulness of Russian army leadership even more. Indeed, if true, it would appear that Putin-led Russia became so practiced in manipulating or obscuring information about its military that it began to believe its own lies, leading it to overestimate its military's readiness and ability to conduct an invasion. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
On March 03 2022 23:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Unsophisticated mines don't care about rules of engagement. There are some sophisticated ones though that can be programmed to do so. Ships operating under a strict "radio" or "no radar" emissions would not be able to fire a missile at a target as they have no way to detect and track targets, except by receiving information from an external source, but that still can create emissions which can be blurred by background emissions. Doubtful that Russian ships has sophisticated networking capability anyways. They can still defend themselves from missiles using passive sensors. Some ships have sophisticated communication intelligence ie "listening" capabilities. Interrogator "blips" are sent for IFF to "blip" a response back. Friendly fire is not a problem in that if you are trying to avoid detection you generally wouldn't be firing any missiles at targets of opportunity anyways. Running silent is normally due to a fixed mission plan, not as a general operation in an area. Search, identification and track are the most important steps before firing a missile, shaped by general intelligence. Thanks, this was illustrative! My short and unsophisticated take from it is that there is no reason for as many hits on third party vessels as we've seen. If someone fires a missile at a non-hostile ship they've either failed at identification, haven't done it at all or are firing at non-hostile targets on purpose. So not particularly different from land combat in that sense. Mines obviously being different in that after they've been laid they're there until cleared. Edit: are there conventions about use of mines at sea? About how/where they can be used, should they be communicated to other vessels etc? | ||
KwarK
United States42693 Posts
On March 03 2022 23:37 Legan wrote: The whole invasion looks so weird, when there are so many pictures that outside experts can analyze. For example, Russian army may not have done proper maintenance on their vehicles, especially their tires in this case, for long time. https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1499164245250002944 If this analysis is correct, it is hard to see things changing fast in Russian army. They are not going to suddenly start having great maintenance on their equipment while stuck on muddy road. Even though this makes things look promising for Ukrainian army, it also feels that it could increase forcefulness of Russian army leadership even more. E: grammar Corrupt billionaire to other corrupt billionaires in a poor country: “but where did all the money for maintenance go?” | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4100 Posts
"The statement said Russia's "special operation" in Ukraine was going "according to plan". It said reports that Russian forces were bombarding Kyiv were part of an "anti-Russia disinformation campaign", and that Russian forces were doing all they could to protect civilians." https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-tells-macron-russia-will-achieve-its-goals-ukraine-2022-03-03/ This is an obvious lie as there's plenty of proof of apartment blocks and other civilian buildings being shelled, and it means that Putin has no intention of negotiating honestly. He's lying to the world and so I believe him when he says that the war is going to continue until he has successfuly invaded the Ukraine. | ||
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KwarK
United States42693 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4100 Posts
"Rockets fired at a residential area in the city of Chernihiv on the northern front line in Ukraine at 12:16 p.m. Ukrainian authorities say it is a Russian airstrike on civilians. In that case, according to Clingendael researcher Danny Pronk, this is a war crime." https://nos.nl/artikel/2419666-dodelijke-raketaanval-op-woonwijk-in-tsjernihiv-mogelijk-met-clustermunitie | ||
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