Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 181

On August 05 2022 03:22 Silvanel wrote:
Actually, the stupid people here are those who believed (despite being told relatively by those who know Russia better) that economical fallout will stop Russia from being aggressive. The Russian government doesn't care about the wellbeing of its people, and Russians themselves don't care that much about it either, many of them will gladly sacrifice their prosperity for the glory of the motherland.

People are motivated by many things, the amount of money in the bank isn't the only one.

On August 05 2022 15:07 Magic Powers wrote:


In the link you provided there's a comment correcting this misinformation. Somehow you manage to miss that.

"The article is based on a wrong translation of Zelenski's words. He did NOT say "Ukraine will not become a member of NATO". He said Ukraine is not a NATO member NOW. Context: He was referring to arguments concerning using article 5 to defend Ukraine - which is of course impossible since Ukraine is not a NATO member NOW. Several people noticed that mistake and posted correct translations on NEXTA's twitter."

Always question news articles, they often come with very significant errors. This source didn't even bother to post an updated version with the correct news.
Below is the correct translation.
Either way, the reason why Ukraine isn't joining NATO is because they're currently at war. They literally can't join.

https://twitter.com/CrunchMasterByz/status/1503764002215768067?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1503764181098586115|twgr^a0092994c2beb39dbc2b6b9a38c6ec21e27250e1|twcon^s3_&ref_url=https://www.newsweek.com/zelensky-nato-russia-putin-war-ukraine-1688145

What you said about gas in Ukraine is also irrelevant. Ukraine has a large amount of gas stored that can be accessed. The reason why it wasn't happening is - guess what - due to the threat of war, which I guess the big companies like Shell predicted perfectly. This further encourages Ukraine and Europe as a whole to win this war and to add another member to the EU and NATO, as this would create the necessary stability for future gas mining and export.
Ukraine is in fact one of the most resource rich countries on this planet, there's a whole lot to be gained in preventing them from falling to Russia.

On August 05 2022 16:46 Magic Powers wrote:


Russia invading Ukraine resulting in their temporary inability to join NATO is "Ukraine's failure"?

They were well on their way to join NATO just prior to the war. Public support was also at an all-time high. The only real obstacle was NATO itself. This is exactly one of the main reasons why Putin invaded at this point in time, to permanently prevent Ukraine from joining. This is not speculation, it's a strongly substantiated theory supported by many people in politics. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and you're trying to create controversy where there is none.

And the numbers for Ukraine's economic ambitions are all well known.

"Ukraine's largest natural gas fields are about 80-85% depleted although there are still large quantities of unexploited gas reserves stored in hard-to-reach areas or solid rock.[37] Ukraine has Europe's third-largest shale gas reserves at 1.2 trillion cubic meters (tcm).[21] There are two potentially large shale gas fields.[21] The Yuzivska gas field located in Donetsk Oblast (province) and Kharkiv Oblast, and the Olesska gas field in Lviv Oblast and Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.[21] Ukraine signed a 50-year production sharing agreement with Royal Dutch Shell on 25 January 2013 involving the Yuzivska shale gas field.[3][27] The $10 billion deal was the largest foreign direct investment ever for Ukraine.[27] Full shale gas production was expected to depend on successful results from 15 test wells.[27] On 13 September 2013 Ukrainian Prime Minister Mykola Azarov stated that the (containing all expenditures) price of shale gas will be $120–130 per 1,000 cubic meters.[38] Ukraine originally expected commercial shale gas extraction to begin in 2017,[39][nb 7] but Shell pulled out of the Yuzivska project in 2015 as a consequence of the war in the Donbas region,[40] located near the field, a collapse in European natural gas prices,[14] and opposition from local residents.[37] Similarly, Chevron abandoned the Olesska project due to increased geopolitical risks and a collapse in European natural gas prices.[14]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_in_Ukraine#:~:text=Ukraine has Europe's third-largest,Oblast and Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.

"Ukraine has extremely rich and complementary mineral resources in high concentrations and close proximity to each other. The country has abundant reserves of coal, iron ore, natural gas, manganese, salt, oil, graphite, sulfur, kaolin, titanium, nickel, magnesium, timber, and mercury."

https://ukraineinvest.gov.ua/industries/mining/#:~:text=Ukraine has extremely rich and,magnesium, timber, and mercury.

If Ukraine wins this war and stabilizes, big companies will be flocking there to establish themselves.

On August 05 2022 15:26 Sermokala wrote:
Yes but that's also a reason why the people of Ukraine would want to join the west instead of staying in the Russian sphere. They're making a very clear simple and easy to understand assessment to where they want their future and Russia decided to invade instead of allowing them to determine their own future.

There is no grand conspiracy except for the lies Russian propagandists want to convince you about.

On August 05 2022 17:18 geod wrote:

Which conspiracy? Who are Russian propagandists? What lies?
Is the fact that Ukraine has its own right to join the West is up to debate? No.
But for their own good I'm questioning their "joining NATO" objective and especially their real plan and actions. The harsh reality makes them quickly realize that there is no NATO membership in a foreseeable future and and the same applies to their EU membership.

On August 05 2022 17:23 KwarK wrote:

They never were joining NATO. The whole Ukraine joining NATO thing is a Russian propaganda message you’re spreading. Part of the larger “we had to attack them because they were joining NATO and that forced us to because Nazis?” argument.

On August 05 2022 16:42 Ghanburighan wrote:
What is this debate, are we stuck in 2008?

The new Amnesty International debacle reads like someone intentionally wanted to make fun of the (mostly left-leaning) Western perception of Eastern Europe: we want to help you but you don't get a say in how. Apparently, Amnesty published a report blaming UA of endangering civilians by fighting in cities, without context. This report was actively fought against internally by its UA office, yet published anyway. And then the head of Amnesty labeled his own staff 'trolls'. Just wow.

On August 05 2022 16:46 Magic Powers wrote:


Russia invading Ukraine resulting in their temporary inability to join NATO is "Ukraine's failure"?

They were well on their way to join NATO just prior to the war. Public support was also at an all-time high. The only real obstacle was NATO itself. This is exactly one of the main reasons why Putin invaded at this point in time, to permanently prevent Ukraine from joining. This is not speculation, it's a strongly substantiated theory supported by many people in politics. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and you're trying to create controversy where there is none.

And the numbers for Ukraine's economic ambitions are all well known.

"Ukraine's largest natural gas fields are about 80-85% depleted although there are still large quantities of unexploited gas reserves stored in hard-to-reach areas or solid rock.[37] Ukraine has Europe's third-largest shale gas reserves at 1.2 trillion cubic meters (tcm).[21] There are two potentially large shale gas fields.[21] The Yuzivska gas field located in Donetsk Oblast (province) and Kharkiv Oblast, and the Olesska gas field in Lviv Oblast and Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.[21] Ukraine signed a 50-year production sharing agreement with Royal Dutch Shell on 25 January 2013 involving the Yuzivska shale gas field.[3][27] The $10 billion deal was the largest foreign direct investment ever for Ukraine.[27] Full shale gas production was expected to depend on successful results from 15 test wells.[27] On 13 September 2013 Ukrainian Prime Minister Mykola Azarov stated that the (containing all expenditures) price of shale gas will be $120–130 per 1,000 cubic meters.[38] Ukraine originally expected commercial shale gas extraction to begin in 2017,[39][nb 7] but Shell pulled out of the Yuzivska project in 2015 as a consequence of the war in the Donbas region,[40] located near the field, a collapse in European natural gas prices,[14] and opposition from local residents.[37] Similarly, Chevron abandoned the Olesska project due to increased geopolitical risks and a collapse in European natural gas prices.[14]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_in_Ukraine#:~:text=Ukraine has Europe's third-largest,Oblast and Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.

"Ukraine has extremely rich and complementary mineral resources in high concentrations and close proximity to each other. The country has abundant reserves of coal, iron ore, natural gas, manganese, salt, oil, graphite, sulfur, kaolin, titanium, nickel, magnesium, timber, and mercury."

https://ukraineinvest.gov.ua/industries/mining/#:~:text=Ukraine has extremely rich and,magnesium, timber, and mercury.

If Ukraine wins this war and stabilizes, big companies will be flocking there to establish themselves.