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On August 15 2021 12:24 StalkerTL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2021 22:58 BaneRiders wrote:On August 14 2021 19:26 deacon.frost wrote:On August 14 2021 12:09 JimmyJRaynor wrote:the threat of leaving is a negotiation tactic. That said it is not always a tactic: some giant companies leave. GM left Ontario after many decades. https://observer.com/2000/06/the-vancouver-solution-what-if-microsoft-tried-to-flee/There is nothing tying Blizzard to southern california any longer. On August 13 2021 23:23 Zambrah wrote:
Activision can try and pretend Blizzard was the only problem, but they werent. I'm sure once more incompetent executives will skate free of consequences from overseeing dens of fuckery and being either too evil to do anything or too deeply incompetent to know what was happening. i asked what evidence there was of criminal activity within Activision proper. I guess you have none? On August 14 2021 02:09 WombaT wrote:
You seem to be forgetting Jimmy’s many shrines to Bobby Kotick that may cloud his commentary.
The above comment isn't even polemics. if you have a specific criticism of Kotick ... it can be discussed. However, the quoted comment adds nothing to the convo. What does California lose when ATVI moves away? THey're not Microsoft, they're not manufacturer(so e.g. tied business goes down) and they tax in Netherlands IIRC. So what exactly will California lose if ATVI decides to move away? Income tax and consumption of all the employees? A high profile employer attracting young talents from all over the world? The possibilities of spin-off companies settling down in the state as well? Income tax and consumption from Activision/Blizzard employees is likely fairly small compared to the rest of the industry in California. They’re also probably not attracting the brightest talent, the games industry pays absolute shithouse compared to typical corporate IT service jobs. The brightest are going elsewhere like Facebook not working at Blizzard for wages like 20+% less than the competition. There’s also a huge amount of games industry still in California that develop way more prestigious products like a whole chunk of Sony’s first party if you want to go that route. The conditions still suck but they seem better than Blizzard, who has a huge reputation of pitching jobs with "YOU'RE GOING TO BE WORKING ON WARCRAFT, LIVE YOUR CHILDHOOD DREAM AND ACCEPT $20,000 LESS!" If anyone is going to get made an example of by a state, it’s the games industry. Show nested quote +On August 15 2021 02:05 evilfatsh1t wrote:
is there a tldr or some up to date summary of the scandal so far? for people like me who havent followed the case and only heard about the headline There's no real tl;dr because not much has happened beyond the reports that keep coming out. They're getting hit by California for widespread abuse and workplace toxicity. It isn't just general sexual harassment but also intentionally paying women less and freezing them from upper management positions because of a culture of a nerdy old boys club. In the meantime, some companies like Coca Cola have pulled advertising for Blizzard eSports and some games news sites are refusing to report on Blizzard products as a stand against widespread abuse. In the meantime, Activision Blizzard is hiring some union busting law firm but to be fair big law firms end up taking up a whole host of nasty jobs because not every job is going to be sunshine and rainbows. But here is a list of articles detailing Blizzard's workplace problems: Activision Blizzard accused of routinely deadnaming trans staff, ignoring & making fun of a non-binary employee's pronouns - Pink NewsAt Blizzard, groping, free-flowing booze and fear of retaliation tainted ‘magical’ workplace - WaPoInside Blizzard Developers' Infamous 'Bill Cosby Suite' - KotakuBlizzard Turned Game Developers Into Rock Stars. Misbehavior Followed - BloombergMen would walk into breastfeeding room and just stare - IGNBlizzard Recruiters asked hacker if she liked being penetrated at job fair - Vice/Waypoint Activision Blizzard Gender-Bias Suit Shows Videogame Culture Remains a Flashpoint - WSJThat's just some of the major reports. This is not a normal workplace or toxicity remotely close to a typical big company and anyone using that excuse to dismiss these problems is a humungous asshole purposely dancing around semantics or being intentionally obtuse sorry. You get toxicity in big companies and big company HR departments often exist to protect corporate interests, yes. This is toxicity turned up to 11. How you don't know and/or refuse to deal with this is mindboggling. These nerds would get beat up in my company without question if they pulled half the shit they did and I work in STEM where casual sexist jokes are still common. Just a few years ago one guy at work got lightly beat up for being under the influence and groping a secretary. Misogyny and sociopathy in the most pathetic ways because its skin crawlingly creepy and pathetic in ways that only nerds can be.
thanks for your post
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With Blizzard losing 20% of its playerbase during 2019 and 2020 it is a lot easier for rumours of mass layoffs and fundamental restructuring to gain traction.
Union Busting Tactic #1: float rumours of mass layoffs and restructuring that requires every employee to re apply for their newly redefined job that was very similar to their old job. float rumours you are shutting down completely or splitting up Blizzard and moving parts of it out of California.
PROJECTION: gophers and stooges of ATVI execs will start rumours and journos will confirm "via multiple corroborating sources" that mass layoffs and fundamental restructuring are very possible for Blizzard.
On August 15 2021 12:24 StalkerTL wrote:
Income tax and consumption from Activision/Blizzard employees is likely fairly small compared to the rest of the industry in California.
The problem is the entire video gaming industry sees ATVI getting raked over the coals and thinks more carefully about expanding within the state. California can pressure ATVI to some extent. If California forces ATVI to spends hundreds of millions of dollars defending itself then their pressure back fires.
Ontario, Canada was traditionally a very pro business jurisdiction. Ontario started to get tough with business for about 18 months. A bunch of businesses left or minimized operations. Tens of thousands of high paying upper middle class jobs disappeared. Ontario stopped "getting tough".
In 1950 it was easier for places like Ontario, Canada and California, USA to pressure industries. Now, these multinationals can hop-scotch all over the planet and place their production facilities wherever conditions are most favourable.
California released a document that grabbed , from their perspective, great headlines. The state really makes it appear they are cracking down on workplace abuse. California got their show points. Now, California will back off and settle with ATVI.
The hammer California holds is orders of discovery. ATVI does not want their private communications made public. The hammer ATVI holds is: they can leave California. I expect both sides to play chicken with each other over the next few months.
On August 15 2021 12:24 StalkerTL wrote:
These nerds would get beat up in my company without question if they pulled half the shit they did and I work in STEM where casual sexist jokes are still common. Just a few years ago one guy at work got lightly beat up for being under the influence and groping a secretary. Misogyny and sociopathy in the most pathetic ways because its skin crawlingly creepy and pathetic in ways that only nerds can be.
i'd say you are over simplifying and stereotyping "nerds".
this is typical "motivation" i've seen in sales offices...
if you work in a pro business jurisdiction ... it is "anything goes" man. i prefer working in pro business jurisdictions because that is where the best, most lucrative and most exciting opportunities are.
Work place abuse will continue; there is nothing California can do about it. It is up to the individual employees to plan their path out and then GTFO. The government will not save them. It never could, it can't right now, and it never will in the future. There is no Santa Claus. He doesn't exist, he never did, and Santa Claus ain't rescuing anyone in the future.
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Blizzard refusing to acknowledge worker demands, happening on an external and internal basis, with outspoken employees having emailed C-suite types about the demands and being met with silence.
Blizzard clearly doesn't want to actually do anything serious to adjust their serious cultural problems, and they'll very clearly don't want to even kind of give even the vaguest appearance of legitimacy to their employee's demands.
Definitely afraid of that unionization. Definitely the reason Wilmer Hale is involved.
https://blizzardwatch.com/2021/08/23/activision-blizzard-employee-open-letter-response/
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On August 24 2021 11:16 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2021 09:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:With Blizzard losing 20% of its playerbase during 2019 and 2020 it is a lot easier for rumours of mass layoffs and fundamental restructuring to gain traction. Union Busting Tactic #1: float rumours of mass layoffs and restructuring that requires every employee to re apply for their newly redefined job that was very similar to their old job. float rumours you are shutting down completely or splitting up Blizzard and moving parts of it out of California. PROJECTION: gophers and stooges of ATVI execs will start rumours and journos will confirm "via multiple corroborating sources" that mass layoffs and fundamental restructuring are very possible for Blizzard. On August 15 2021 12:24 StalkerTL wrote:
Income tax and consumption from Activision/Blizzard employees is likely fairly small compared to the rest of the industry in California. The problem is the entire video gaming industry sees ATVI getting raked over the coals and thinks more carefully about expanding within the state. California can pressure ATVI to some extent. If California forces ATVI to spends hundreds of millions of dollars defending itself then their pressure back fires. Ontario, Canada was traditionally a very pro business jurisdiction. Ontario started to get tough with business for about 18 months. A bunch of businesses left or minimized operations. Tens of thousands of high paying upper middle class jobs disappeared. Ontario stopped "getting tough". In 1950 it was easier for places like Ontario, Canada and California, USA to pressure industries. Now, these multinationals can hop-scotch all over the planet and place their production facilities wherever conditions are most favourable. California released a document that grabbed , from their perspective, great headlines. The state really makes it appear they are cracking down on workplace abuse. California got their show points. Now, California will back off and settle with ATVI. The hammer California holds is orders of discovery. ATVI does not want their private communications made public. The hammer ATVI holds is: they can leave California. I expect both sides to play chicken with each other over the next few months. On August 15 2021 12:24 StalkerTL wrote:
These nerds would get beat up in my company without question if they pulled half the shit they did and I work in STEM where casual sexist jokes are still common. Just a few years ago one guy at work got lightly beat up for being under the influence and groping a secretary. Misogyny and sociopathy in the most pathetic ways because its skin crawlingly creepy and pathetic in ways that only nerds can be. i'd say you are over simplifying and stereotyping "nerds". this is typical "motivation" i've seen in sales offices...if you work in a pro business jurisdiction ... it is "anything goes" man. i prefer working in pro business jurisdictions because that is where the best, most lucrative and most exciting opportunities are. Work place abuse will continue; there is nothing California can do about it. It is up to the individual employees to plan their path out and then GTFO. The government will not save them. It never could, it can't right now, and it never will in the future. There is no Santa Claus. He doesn't exist, he never did, and Santa Claus ain't rescuing anyone in the future. Is this a troll post? Most companies not run by frat boys don't operate in these manners because they lose talent, not to mention the huge hit to the brand when word comes out. There is nothing "anti-business" about not allowing harassment in businesses. Harassment is not productive. I'm pretty sure no company is like, well we want to be in this location because it is the best place to attract talent, good offices, friendly taxes and blah blah. But location B is worse for most things BUT we will be able to have a cultre of harassment within the office without consequence. Lets pick B not being able to harass people will hurt our bottom line too much......
Even in the world of bloody grunt retail over here a bloke got sacked for making weird sexual comments to colleagues and in one case a customer. There’s still plenty of room for some good-natured banter, even in a workplace that could do much better in other realms in terms of conditions, making comments that people tell you make them uncomfortable, consistently and you’re out the door.
Methinks Blizzard decamping to outside California would be a pretty ruinous PR move. It’s going to be a reallll hard sell, far harder than ‘we moved to a more generous tax area for commerce’ to move operations rather than deal with a culture of harassment.
A PR hit the cynic in me thinks they could have taken if not for other gaffes in the last few years, and completely botching the Warcraft 3 remaster etc etc. Or put out a really great new game recently.
But they’ve also done none of that, and nickle and diming things that should have been absolute easy wins like Reforged has come back to bite them.
There’s a certain robustness in adherence to not playing Blizz games due to this current scandal, least in my peer group that normally would have fizzled out, but is sustained because Blizz had already pissed people off prior to this.
Correctly or not Blizzard’s brand strength was in being the ‘good guys’, in intermittent game releases that were great games, or if not to one’s taste then at least really polished, and supporting their existing IPs forever.
Do any of those ring particularly true today?
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On August 24 2021 11:16 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2021 09:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:With Blizzard losing 20% of its playerbase during 2019 and 2020 it is a lot easier for rumours of mass layoffs and fundamental restructuring to gain traction. Union Busting Tactic #1: float rumours of mass layoffs and restructuring that requires every employee to re apply for their newly redefined job that was very similar to their old job. float rumours you are shutting down completely or splitting up Blizzard and moving parts of it out of California. PROJECTION: gophers and stooges of ATVI execs will start rumours and journos will confirm "via multiple corroborating sources" that mass layoffs and fundamental restructuring are very possible for Blizzard. On August 15 2021 12:24 StalkerTL wrote:
Income tax and consumption from Activision/Blizzard employees is likely fairly small compared to the rest of the industry in California. The problem is the entire video gaming industry sees ATVI getting raked over the coals and thinks more carefully about expanding within the state. California can pressure ATVI to some extent. If California forces ATVI to spends hundreds of millions of dollars defending itself then their pressure back fires. Ontario, Canada was traditionally a very pro business jurisdiction. Ontario started to get tough with business for about 18 months. A bunch of businesses left or minimized operations. Tens of thousands of high paying upper middle class jobs disappeared. Ontario stopped "getting tough". In 1950 it was easier for places like Ontario, Canada and California, USA to pressure industries. Now, these multinationals can hop-scotch all over the planet and place their production facilities wherever conditions are most favourable. California released a document that grabbed , from their perspective, great headlines. The state really makes it appear they are cracking down on workplace abuse. California got their show points. Now, California will back off and settle with ATVI. The hammer California holds is orders of discovery. ATVI does not want their private communications made public. The hammer ATVI holds is: they can leave California. I expect both sides to play chicken with each other over the next few months. On August 15 2021 12:24 StalkerTL wrote:
These nerds would get beat up in my company without question if they pulled half the shit they did and I work in STEM where casual sexist jokes are still common. Just a few years ago one guy at work got lightly beat up for being under the influence and groping a secretary. Misogyny and sociopathy in the most pathetic ways because its skin crawlingly creepy and pathetic in ways that only nerds can be. i'd say you are over simplifying and stereotyping "nerds". this is typical "motivation" i've seen in sales offices...if you work in a pro business jurisdiction ... it is "anything goes" man. i prefer working in pro business jurisdictions because that is where the best, most lucrative and most exciting opportunities are. Work place abuse will continue; there is nothing California can do about it. It is up to the individual employees to plan their path out and then GTFO. The government will not save them. It never could, it can't right now, and it never will in the future. There is no Santa Claus. He doesn't exist, he never did, and Santa Claus ain't rescuing anyone in the future. Is this a troll post? Most companies not run by frat boys don't operate in these manners because they lose talent, not to mention the huge hit to the brand when word comes out. There is nothing "anti-business" about not allowing harassment in businesses. Harassment is not productive. I'm pretty sure no company is like, well we want to be in this location because it is the best place to attract talent, good offices, friendly taxes and blah blah. But location B is worse for most things BUT we will be able to have a cultre of harassment within the office without consequence. Lets pick B not being able to harass people will hurt our bottom line too much......
He's had it explained for him multiple times why "that's just the way it is" is a terrible response, and why it's just not true given how particularly heinously Blizzard has carried themselves. He would rather piss on the people being harassed by telling them they didn't try hard enough to get away from their abusers than agree it's worth trying to stop it, or even call it out as unacceptable.
I guess that's the biggest tipoff for me. If someone is so quick to call abuse unavoidable but somehow can't manage to call it unacceptable, then I think their stance on the issue is pretty clear.
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There are some rumours circulating that Blizzard Entertainment is going to dissolve early 2022 and will be rebranded as Activision Insight.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On August 24 2021 19:32 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2021 11:16 JimmiC wrote:On August 24 2021 09:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:With Blizzard losing 20% of its playerbase during 2019 and 2020 it is a lot easier for rumours of mass layoffs and fundamental restructuring to gain traction. Union Busting Tactic #1: float rumours of mass layoffs and restructuring that requires every employee to re apply for their newly redefined job that was very similar to their old job. float rumours you are shutting down completely or splitting up Blizzard and moving parts of it out of California. PROJECTION: gophers and stooges of ATVI execs will start rumours and journos will confirm "via multiple corroborating sources" that mass layoffs and fundamental restructuring are very possible for Blizzard. On August 15 2021 12:24 StalkerTL wrote:
Income tax and consumption from Activision/Blizzard employees is likely fairly small compared to the rest of the industry in California. The problem is the entire video gaming industry sees ATVI getting raked over the coals and thinks more carefully about expanding within the state. California can pressure ATVI to some extent. If California forces ATVI to spends hundreds of millions of dollars defending itself then their pressure back fires. Ontario, Canada was traditionally a very pro business jurisdiction. Ontario started to get tough with business for about 18 months. A bunch of businesses left or minimized operations. Tens of thousands of high paying upper middle class jobs disappeared. Ontario stopped "getting tough". In 1950 it was easier for places like Ontario, Canada and California, USA to pressure industries. Now, these multinationals can hop-scotch all over the planet and place their production facilities wherever conditions are most favourable. California released a document that grabbed , from their perspective, great headlines. The state really makes it appear they are cracking down on workplace abuse. California got their show points. Now, California will back off and settle with ATVI. The hammer California holds is orders of discovery. ATVI does not want their private communications made public. The hammer ATVI holds is: they can leave California. I expect both sides to play chicken with each other over the next few months. On August 15 2021 12:24 StalkerTL wrote:
These nerds would get beat up in my company without question if they pulled half the shit they did and I work in STEM where casual sexist jokes are still common. Just a few years ago one guy at work got lightly beat up for being under the influence and groping a secretary. Misogyny and sociopathy in the most pathetic ways because its skin crawlingly creepy and pathetic in ways that only nerds can be. i'd say you are over simplifying and stereotyping "nerds". this is typical "motivation" i've seen in sales offices...if you work in a pro business jurisdiction ... it is "anything goes" man. i prefer working in pro business jurisdictions because that is where the best, most lucrative and most exciting opportunities are. Work place abuse will continue; there is nothing California can do about it. It is up to the individual employees to plan their path out and then GTFO. The government will not save them. It never could, it can't right now, and it never will in the future. There is no Santa Claus. He doesn't exist, he never did, and Santa Claus ain't rescuing anyone in the future. Is this a troll post? Most companies not run by frat boys don't operate in these manners because they lose talent, not to mention the huge hit to the brand when word comes out. There is nothing "anti-business" about not allowing harassment in businesses. Harassment is not productive. I'm pretty sure no company is like, well we want to be in this location because it is the best place to attract talent, good offices, friendly taxes and blah blah. But location B is worse for most things BUT we will be able to have a cultre of harassment within the office without consequence. Lets pick B not being able to harass people will hurt our bottom line too much...... He's had it explained for him multiple times why "that's just the way it is" is a terrible response, and why it's just not true given how particularly heinously Blizzard has carried themselves. He would rather piss on the people being harassed by telling them they didn't try hard enough to get away from their abusers than agree it's worth trying to stop it, or even call it out as unacceptable. I guess that's the biggest tipoff for me. If someone is so quick to call abuse unavoidable but somehow can't manage to call it unacceptable, then I think their stance on the issue is pretty clear.
Tends to be the case that that view is as wedded to an idealistic view of how things work as any supposed utopian and unrealistic vision of improving things.
The idea that AAA game development has to operate outside of norms of many comparable industries and treat some employees terribly or else the real good stuff doesn’t get made seems way off.
In ye olden days with way smaller teams, legendary tales of guys coding engines on their own fuelled with passion and coffee, yeah. That works, absolutely when dev teams were smaller, these people were presumably usually close, and individuals had a lot of input into the project they were working on.
Extrapolating that out and the practices of that time into way bigger projects, where many are just working a regular job, because this was what gave us greatness in the 90s does not a great fit make.
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Some amendments made to the ActiBlizz DFEH lawsuit, including redefining the group wronged by ActiBlizz, going from "employees" to "workers," I think to include temporary workers and the like.
Also, they note that ActiBlizz has stifled their investigation using things like NDAs. Also,
It alleges, in part, that "documents related to investigations and complaints were shredded by human resource personnel" in violation of what it asserts is the game company's legal obligation to retain them pending the investigation.
https://www.axios.com/activision-blizzard-lawsuit-temporary-workers-4a8fa284-a003-4c56-819c-43c7c2d3f3ca.html
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Blizzard bankruptcy here we come!
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On August 25 2021 05:11 farvacola wrote:
Blizzard bankruptcy here we come!
How does that work with merged companies like activision blizzard? Can they just say everything bad and all the law suits are on blizzard and punt them?
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On August 25 2021 05:32 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:How does that work with merged companies like activision blizzard? Can they just say everything bad and all the law suits are on blizzard and punt them?
Unfortunately the answers are “it gets really messy” and “maybe.” There’s definitely a world in which the company goes through a chapter 11 reorg and successfully sheds many claims against it, including the employment lawsuit claims.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
They Just. Keep. Digging.
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Really shows how little of a shit ActiBlizz gives about the actual problems they have, they'd rather fight the lawsuit tooth and nail in gross and unethical ways than change in any meaningful way.
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Not surprising. Just disappointing. They didn't have to respond to a lawsuit by doubling down, using NDA's, shredding evidence, and attacking any attempts by the workers to unionize. They could've done none of those things and still looked quite poor as the suit runs its course. No. Ubisoft is holding their beer.
I feel a deep, deep shame for them. One that they won't feel themselves. At least they're making it easier than I ever imagined to swear off their products forever.
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This isn't the same company that made broodwar,warcraft and diablo 2 so it's no surprise. They haven't been the same company in over a decade
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The old company made good games.
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On August 25 2021 21:56 Timebon3s wrote:
The old company made good games.
Blizzard still made good games. But WoW broke them creatively. They sold their soul to the money fountain.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On August 26 2021 00:15 Husyelt wrote:Blizzard still made good games. But WoW broke them creatively. They sold their soul to the money fountain.
They didn’t have to, is the irritating part.
You have a giant fucking money tree that doesn’t take a huge amount of pruning, if ever there’s a time to take some risks creatively it’s when you are making ungodly amounts of money and can take the hit if something doesn’t land.
But no, you can’t even find the budget to properly remaster a beloved old game of yours.
Hey not the only offender, still salty that Epic canned a new Unreal Tournament on account of Fortnite being their WoW.
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EPT
