Female employees working for the World of Warcraft team noted that male employees and supervisors would hit on them, make derogatory comments about rape, and otherwise engage in demeaning behavior, the agency alleges.
The suit also points to a female Activision employee who took her own life while on a company trip with her male supervisor. The employee had been subjected to intense sexual harassment prior to her death, including having nude photos passed around at a company holiday party, the complaint says.
What's interesting to me is it's not the employees suing, but the state of California. It must have been really bad and the agencies (I'm not sure who would be in charge of this, maybe the workers reported it to some sort of workers' protection agencies) must have received enough complaints and evidence to pursue charges. Thoughts?
Doesn't surprise me. Glad to see a major lawsuit go through. From Kotaku's article
In the office, women are subjected to “cube crawls” in which male employees drink copious [amounts] of alcohol as they “crawl” their way through various cubicles in the office and often engage in inappropriate behavior toward female employees. Male employees proudly come into work hungover, play video games for long periods of time during work while delegating their responsibilities to female employees, engage in banter about their sexual encounters, talk openly about female bodies and joke about rape.
I can't imagine someone not filming some of these incidents, I'm sure if they did happen they will come out eventually.
This is very serious stuff. Hope they get to the bottom of this and that it results in this cancer getting removed completely.
Really hope the new studios that are formed by former Blizzard staff take these things seriously and take steps to prevent such a culture from developing.
This is one of the reasons I why I prefer a work environment where the male/female ratio is even. Eighty percent men often leads to a dysfunctional work environment.
Ultimately it the leaders that create the culture though. If the top is rotten the rest of the company will follow.
searching for this; 100s of immediate hits for this lawsuit, dozens of hits for harassment allegations around 2019, under 5 articles on Kerri's passing. Virtually normal.
Not surprising to me at this point, things rarely are anymore, but damned disappointing for sure. Now I'm forced to look back at all the questionable changes made to their games and their staff over the years, and wonder how a toxic frat (read rape?) culture contributed to that. Not totally a "few bad apples" thing, because the leadership were also part of the bad apples, but seriously a damn shame on the game front in addition to the human rights front. Really hard to evaluate how to feel when the company that made so many of the games that defined my childhood turns out to be so deeply problematic. But at the end of the day, fuck everyone who took part in perpetuating this shit, that matters way more than what I think of their games. They need to feel some heat for enabling a sexist, racist culture, and they need to do better, bottom line.
On July 22 2021 18:30 MockHamill wrote: This is one of the reasons I why I prefer a work environment where the male/female ratio is even. Eighty percent men often leads to a dysfunctional work environment.
Ultimately it the leaders that create the culture though. If the top is rotten the rest of the company will follow.
This is pure and simple a leadership issue, nothing else. Stuff like this doesn’t happen if the Boss isn’t involved and actively promotes it.
I have worked all my life in heavily women dominated companies, if a group/section turned «bad» (never to the level described here tho because O_o) it normally happened after a change in leadership of said group (via promotion or external didn’t matter). It was usually fixed pretty fast by changing (firing) the leadership and «recommending to leave» (firing) to the main culprits once a certain treshold was reached, too late for many for sure but, well, you kinda need things to go bad so people can see and do something against it.
This is one we can't blame on Activision. We can't blame it on Bobby Kotick. This has been a problem from before the merger. The documentation makes it clear that this has been occurring in the World of Warcraft development offices for longer than we all want to believe. The years we're nostalgic for with Blizzard? The "glory days", the "golden age"? This was happening back then too. This is a bigger problem than "look what my precious corporation has turned into." We can't let it be made out to be that way.
Absolutely disgusting. I hope to see all parties from both companies held responsible. And I agree, this company culture is not something that can be laid at the feet of the Activision Blizzard merger. Company culture is formed top-down and the management/executive people involved on the Blizzard side of things were already with the company before the merger took place. How much did the higher ups know, how much were they complacent in, and how much did they actively particpate in? Was this isolated to the WoW team or was this pervasive in multiple or even all the Blizzard Development teams? This gives me serious reservation of supporting any of the new studios formed by ex-Blizzard senior membership now.
Maybe this is the reason that so many old blizz people are leaving the compagny. Not so much because they miss making RTS games, but because of how awful work environment it was.
searching for this; 100s of immediate hits for this lawsuit, dozens of hits for harassment allegations around 2019, under 5 articles on Kerri's passing. Virtually normal.
I am in doubt it's says Kerri's chef on the trip was female and that the employee driven to suicide was traveling with male chef. But how many employees can blazzard have that commit suicide on business trips.
The only surprising thing is that this hasn't come up until now. We're talking "constant harassment" that went on for years, there are people citing horrible things that go on in the offices and that they have PTSD even when driving next to the offices despite not being employed there any more.
Are people so insecure about their job opportunities or their personal abilities that they put up with this shit for years without quitting on the spot or recording it and blowing the whistle?
If I joined a company and saw such shit going down I'd immediately demand people be fired or quit myself and went to the press. That's assuming I only saw that, were I being harassed like that I'd bring hell down on their heads.
Perhaps it's just the US/corporate employment issue in general, where people are not inclined to fight for their own rights and dignity as an employee.
Developers worldwide should definitely unionize and stick it to the corps.
On July 23 2021 22:39 Manit0u wrote: The only surprising thing is that this hasn't come up until now. We're talking "constant harassment" that went on for years, there are people citing horrible things that go on in the offices and that they have PTSD even when driving next to the offices despite not being employed there any more.
Are people so insecure about their job opportunities or their personal abilities that they put up with this shit for years without quitting on the spot or recording it and blowing the whistle?
If I joined a company and saw such shit going down I'd immediately demand people be fired or quit myself and went to the press. That's assuming I only saw that, were I being harassed like that I'd bring hell down on their heads.
Perhaps it's just the US/corporate employment issue in general, where people are not inclined to fight for their own rights and dignity as an employee.
Developers worldwide should definitely unionize and stick it to the corps.
I am never in the camp of blaming people for not talking sooner. A hallmark of any abusive situation is making the victims feel completely powerless to do anything about it, even if it's not true. And yes, America has huge problems with employees being forcibly overdependent on their employers for everything from their pay to their right to have health insurance. People put up with way more than they should have to, because their right to live is being softly held hostage. If more people had the ability to quit their job to speak out without fear of getting blackballed by other similar employers, they might just do so. It's not a simple thing, unfortunately, and it's deeply fucked up from top to bottom, as the investigation has shown.
I am in no way putting blame on the victims here. The whole situation just seems absurd and bizarre to me and that's why I'm attributing it to the work culture in the corporate US. I guess you're right that if there's no real public healthcare, mandatory severance packages etc. it's much easier to hold people hostage at work.
I'm trying to compare it to situations I've encountered myself, like CEO having an office romance/affair with the girl from HR department (consensual on both sides so at least that's different) who got caught having sex in the office. They both got fired the next day and it was the talk of the week in all the IT community in the city.
From my experience people tend to gossip a lot about their situation at work but maybe in the US people don't meet so often outside of their office. So far in Poland and in Germany I've found it pretty common for people to go grab a casual beer or a meal, have informal parties quite often etc. And if people from different companies meet in a bar there obviously will be some info sharing as people are eager to know if the grass is greener somewhere else and such.
Work culture is pretty awful in the US, and the more revered a company is the more people are willing to put up with to work there. For example, many people put up with living in their cars just to work at Disneyland. Why? Because working for Disney is their dream and they're willing to sacrifice some of their dignity and standard of living for the opportunity to do so.
For many, working at Blizzard is like working at Disney, and they're willing to endure so much to make their dream come true and there will always be more people happy to take their place once they get fed up or break from their working conditions. It makes these places perfect for workplace abuse and harassment.
Being a shit disturber in games is rough, you're very very liable to get blacklisted given how incredibly interconnected the game development world is. If word gets around you dont like being sexually harassed thats going to potentially end any career you may have in games.
Unfortunately power is entirely in the hands of the already powerful in these situations.
EDIT: Fran Townsend, a current ActiBlizz executive and former... let me see... Homeland Security Advisor to George W. Bush... sent an email to Blizzard staff doubling down on their gas lighting public statement.
As the Executive Sponsor of the ABK Employee's Women's Network and our Chief Compliance Officer, I wanted to reach out to you. I know this has been difficult for many of us. A recently filed lawsuit presented a distorted and untrue picture of our company, including factually incorrect, old, and out of context stories - some from more than a decade ago.
The Activision companies of today, the Activision companies that I know, are great companies with good values. When I joined the Executive Leadership Team, I was certain that I was joining a company where I would be valued, treated with respect, and provided opportunities equal to those afford to the men of the company. For me, this has been true during my time. As a leader, I am committed to making sure that the experience I have is the same as the rest of the organization. We have a leadership team that is committed to these principles in every way.
I am proud to be part of a company that takes a hard-line approach to inappropriate or hostile work environments and sexual harassment issues. Our Speak Up campaign reinforces out zero tolerance for retaliation against those who do speak up. We've made significant investments to foster inclusive behvaiors, and to reflect reater diversity within our leadership teams including:
Investing in and strengthening out DE&I Employee Networks; creating global networks to bring together the efforts in all of our business units and the introduction of Executive Sponsors. Introducing learning and development programs, including inclusive hiring training. Amplifying internal programs such as the Way2Play Heroes and the recurring Speak Up campaign. Reinforcing channels for employees to report violations including the "ASK List." Introducing an Employee Relations team dedicated to investigating employee concerns. Continuing to require all employees to take Equality & Diversity training and including anti-harassment training (and we have done so for many years.)
We put tremendous effort into creating fair compensation policies that reflect out commitment to equal opportunity. We review compensation regularly and feel confident that we pay all employees fairly for equal or substantially similar work. We take proactive steps to ensure that pay and advancement are driven by merit. We reward performance, and we conduct extensive anti-discrimination trainings, including for those who are part of the compensation process.
We work at a company that truly values equality and fairness. Rest assured that leadership is committed to continuing to maintain a safe, fair, and inclusive workplace. We cannot let egregious actions of others, and a truly meritless and irresponsible lawsuit, damage our culture of respect and equal opportunity for all employees. We aspire in our company to do great things in our games, in our impact on society, and in our work environment. We continue to hold firm to our principles and invest, as we have in the past, the resources to ensure quality opportunities for all employees. We remain committed as a leadership team to doing what is right.
I personally have a lot of emotions coming out of yesterday, and I know you do, too. The allegations and the hurt of current and former employees are extremely troubling. I know many of you would like to receive more clarity. While I can't comment on the specifics of the case as it's an open investigation, what I can say is that the behavior detailed in the allegations is completely unacceptable.
It goes -with saying- it is completely unacceptable for anyone i nthe company to face discrimination or harassment. It goes - with saying- that everyone should feel safe working here, whether we are on campus, at BlizzCon, or working from home. It goes - with saying- it takes courages to come forward, and all claims brought to the company are invested by internal and (when needed) external investigators. We take these claims very seriously. Claims can be made without fear of retaliation, and many times, I attend to them personally, along with other leaders.
Stepping back - when I talked with Bobby about taking this job, one of the first things I mentioned was a revered saint of the Brack household - Gloria Steinem. Growing up, the value of women as equals, understanding the work that had been done for equal treatment, and the fact that there ws still much to do, were common themes. This is just one of the reasons the fight for equality is incredibly important to me. People with different backgrounds, views, and experiences are essential for Blizzard, our teams, and our player community. I disdain "bro culture," and have spent my career fighting against it.
Interating on our culture with the same intensity that we bring to our games is imperative, with our values acting as our north star. This is some of the most important work that we do, both as professionals and human beings.
A company is more than a legal construct that exists as a piece of paper in a filing cabinet in Delaware. The people that work at the company make it what it is, through their actions and creations. Each of us plays a role in maintaining a place of safety for one other. And it is also up to each of us to continue to craft the Blizzard we want - and commit to doing our part in keeping Blizzard great, but always aspiring for more.
The leadership team and I will be meeting with many of you to answer questions and discuss how we can move forward. In the meantime, I want you to kno that you can talk to any manager, any HR partner, any member of the legal team, or to anyone one the executive team [including, Hey J]. If you feel more comfortable talking to someone outside of Blizzard, or prefer to be anonymous, you can contact the Way2Play Integrity Line.
I feel angry, sad, and a host of other emotions, but I also feel grateful to work alongside a set of leaders and thousands of employees who join me in their commitment to continuous improvement.
Thank you Blizzard,
JAB
that doesnt seem to think that the allegations are meritless.
Naturally, Blizzard employees are pissed off, and to be honest I wouldn't feel safe about talking to any manager, HR partner, definitely not the legal team, or any executive (especially not Fran Townsend!) about sexual harassment given the companies statements on whats happened.
Given the part that JAB has played in the picture on the Blizzard side, he definitely has nicer words that contrast with Activision's account, but I wouldn't be in a rush to see them as any better. Both the ogre's heads were and are complicit.
Don't you just love the mambojumbo corpo-speech in those emails? A lesson in how to use so many words to say practically nothing, mostly just re-iterating company slogans and re-introducing names of gazillion programs (why do you even need multiple channels to report violations?) and initiatives with silly names.
I trust Morhaime, and his statement feels very honest.
It's hard to say how much he would know. As someone who has worked in big companies, you barely ever see the CEOs/Presidents if ever. They are just busy and going from here to there all the time. You mostly work in your group, your direct boss, and then you sometimes have meetings with other groups or the boss of your boss. And when issues come up and you CC them, often times they just re-direct it to another person and say "check this" "please fix." Etc. Even higher management rarely gets together except for very specific meetings. I'm sure the experience of others here will be similar.
So I don't doubt that he didn't knew the extent of it. Specially if the HR department was as incompetent as it seems. If the HR department doesn't scale issues or solve them it's hard for higher ups to become aware. And we know for a fact that HR was incompetent because their work is to protect their company, and they are being sued so clearly they didn't do their job very well.
That being said, he should have been aware of some of it. Specially as some of the people involved were kind of higher magnament, and it's responsibility of the CEO to set a good company environment, even if he does not oversees it directly on a day-to-day basis.
One that would have a much more harder time of plausible deniability in terms of knowing what was going on is Chris Metzen.
He worked very closely with Afriasabi with is directly accused here, and it seems they were friends. He was basically his successor in terms of lore for wow. He must have known his friend wasn't very respectful of women.
I was pondering writing something similar. In the company I work for, the location boss is constantly absent, either traveling or talking to customers. It's the middle management that is setting the example and work culture, and that differs from manager to manager, obviously. I only know people working for my project or people with whom I worked previously. If someone was doing some shitty stuff behind closed doors I can't even open (lack of access due to customer secrecy/confidentiality, NDA, R&D etc.) I wouldn't even know. So the question of how many people know such things is highly dependent on work organization, buildings layout and organizational structure of company.
That being said, if the highest management sets clear policy (as they should) and communicate clearly that they strongly against it, and they set channels for reporting such issues then employees shouldn't be worried about reporting abuse, and perpetrators should be scared of consequences.
Well, as per usual, i will take out my popcorn and wait how it ends. Because while some of things in complaint are genuinely disturbing, some inclusions are questionable (from ethical point of view, ianal to see how it works with California state/Federal laws), and if i learned anything in recent years, is that nobody is trustworthy.
Obviously it's hard to know the ins and outs of the discussion and what he has been told and not and in what way, but it look like there may have been some volontary blindness going on. I want to believe that there's isn't a mean bone in Morhaim himself (altought what do I know I guess), but you can't ignore those kind of behavior, especially if you are a CEO.
On July 24 2021 16:06 [Phantom] wrote: I trust Morhaime, and his statement feels very honest.
It's hard to say how much he would know. As someone who has worked in big companies, you barely ever see the CEOs/Presidents if ever. They are just busy and going from here to there all the time. You mostly work in your group, your direct boss, and then you sometimes have meetings with other groups or the boss of your boss. And when issues come up and you CC them, often times they just re-direct it to another person and say "check this" "please fix." Etc. Even higher management rarely gets together except for very specific meetings. I'm sure the experience of others here will be similar.
So I don't doubt that he didn't knew the extent of it. Specially if the HR department was as incompetent as it seems. If the HR department doesn't scale issues or solve them it's hard for higher ups to become aware. And we know for a fact that HR was incompetent because their work is to protect their company, and they are being sued so clearly they didn't do their job very well.
That being said, he should have been aware of some of it. Specially as some of the people involved were kind of higher magnament, and it's responsibility of the CEO to set a good company environment, even if he does not oversees it directly on a day-to-day basis.
One that would have a much more harder time of plausible deniability in terms of knowing what was going on is Chris Metzen.
He worked very closely with Afriasabi with is directly accused here, and it seems they were friends. He was basically his successor in terms of lore for wow. He must have known his friend wasn't very respectful of women.
It's what I think is going on too.
I've met Mike. He is as genuine of a guy as I can ever expect a major CEO of a company to be.
Is it possible that he knew and did nothing? Of course it is. Do I think it's likely? Of course not.
Whoever is in charge of HR is to blame first and foremost. That's their fucking job, to police shit like this. Even if Mike did hear a plea here and there from someone under him, the most likely thing he would have done is gone to HR about it and instructed them to do something about it.
If he has committed a sin, it's hiring and or trusting whoever he had in charge of HR. If Chris Metzen is also involved that only makes it worse because he and Mike are friends.
It's really common in these kinds of situations to go after the big boss. But the reality is here that it's very likely that Mike had no idea what was going on underneath his feet. I've seen it in every place I've worked at. Big boss, comes around, everyone straightens up and stops fucking around until he passes by, only to go back to business as usual when his back is turned.
Is it possible he knew? Yea it's possible. Is it likely? I don't think so. Not to this extent.
On July 24 2021 09:56 Manit0u wrote: Don't you just love the mambojumbo corpo-speech in those emails? A lesson in how to use so many words to say practically nothing, mostly just re-iterating company slogans and re-introducing names of gazillion programs (why do you even need multiple channels to report violations?) and initiatives with silly names.
Yep, everytime i read a statement like that, i'm taken back to the first book of foundation. Lots of words, nothing in it.
Kind'a disappointed by how deep below the fold this issue is buried here.
The company and people behind the game this site is mainly dedicated to are being sued over what appear to be horrendous acts. People who made this game, interacted with this community.... how is this not a featured discussion?
Does anyone here really think that "Nice joins Good Game Gaming after leaving Alpha X" is more important community news then THIS?
On July 25 2021 04:32 Highrock1 wrote: Kind'a disappointed by how deep below the fold this issue is buried here.
The company and people behind the game this site is mainly dedicated to are being sued over what appear to be horrendous acts. People who made this game, interacted with this community.... how is this not a featured discussion?
Does anyone here really think that "Nice joins Good Game Gaming after leaving Alpha X" is more important community news then THIS?
It's been a long time since Blizzard were remotely relevant to Starcraft.
On July 25 2021 04:32 Highrock1 wrote: Kind'a disappointed by how deep below the fold this issue is buried here.
The company and people behind the game this site is mainly dedicated to are being sued over what appear to be horrendous acts. People who made this game, interacted with this community.... how is this not a featured discussion?
Does anyone here really think that "Nice joins Good Game Gaming after leaving Alpha X" is more important community news then THIS?
It's been a long time since Blizzard were remotely relevant to Starcraft.
Well they are paying for like 80% of the SC2 prize pool so saddly we can't forget them compleatly.
One current Blizzard employee, Josh “Devolore” Allen, calls Morhaime’s statement “100% bullshit,” alleging the former executive knew what was going on within the company.
“‘If I’d known this was happening I would have stopped it’ says the man who was told repeatedly that it was happening and did nothing to stop it
“I’ve refrained from giving my own comments on the situation at Actiblizz because frankly, there are more important people you should be listening to right now. But that statement from a certain former leader was 100% bullshit and I’m furious about it.
“He knew. He did nothing. Don’t get me wrong, current leadership is fucking up hard right now too. But please don’t believe for a second that the culture that allowed all of this to happen for the last couple of decades was somehow built by the guy who’s been in charge for 3 years.”
Yeah, tbh game industry culture was WILD back in the day, theres basically no way that Morhaime wasn't at least aware of the kind of shit that was going down.
On July 25 2021 17:10 BaneRiders wrote: One current Blizzard employee, Josh “Devolore” Allen, calls Morhaime’s statement “100% bullshit,” alleging the former executive knew what was going on within the company.
“‘If I’d known this was happening I would have stopped it’ says the man who was told repeatedly that it was happening and did nothing to stop it
“I’ve refrained from giving my own comments on the situation at Actiblizz because frankly, there are more important people you should be listening to right now. But that statement from a certain former leader was 100% bullshit and I’m furious about it.
“He knew. He did nothing. Don’t get me wrong, current leadership is fucking up hard right now too. But please don’t believe for a second that the culture that allowed all of this to happen for the last couple of decades was somehow built by the guy who’s been in charge for 3 years.”
As noted by Massively OP, Brack is one of the parties listed in California’s suit against Activision Blizzard, for not taking “effective remedial measures” when it came to claims made by female employees.
Easy enough to explain that he's trying to cover his own ass by throwing blame at bigger fish. A VERY common tactic.
If my state of California has as much evidence as they claim to have. We will know who the actual guilty parties are VERY soon.
On July 25 2021 17:10 BaneRiders wrote: One current Blizzard employee, Josh “Devolore” Allen, calls Morhaime’s statement “100% bullshit,” alleging the former executive knew what was going on within the company.
“‘If I’d known this was happening I would have stopped it’ says the man who was told repeatedly that it was happening and did nothing to stop it
“I’ve refrained from giving my own comments on the situation at Actiblizz because frankly, there are more important people you should be listening to right now. But that statement from a certain former leader was 100% bullshit and I’m furious about it.
“He knew. He did nothing. Don’t get me wrong, current leadership is fucking up hard right now too. But please don’t believe for a second that the culture that allowed all of this to happen for the last couple of decades was somehow built by the guy who’s been in charge for 3 years.”
As noted by Massively OP, Brack is one of the parties listed in California’s suit against Activision Blizzard, for not taking “effective remedial measures” when it came to claims made by female employees.
Easy enough to explain that he's trying to cover his own ass by throwing blame at bigger fish. A VERY common tactic.
If my state of California has much evidence as they claim to have. We will know who the actual guilty parties are VERY soon.
Is it very common that your state sues companies for discrimination against women generally and pregnant employees, sexual harassment, retaliation and unequal pay?
I mean, Blizzard in the old days was a bunch of friends getting together and making games. I don’t know about everyone else, but my experience of “the boys getting together to hang out” would typically involve doing/saying shit that was totally reprehensible and should never see the light of day, and also had at least 1 or 2 guys that were fun to hang out with but you were pretty sure were not the best human beings around.
I’d be willing to bet large sums of money that that’s the kind of environment early to mid 90s Blizzard was like. They ended up busting out great games and garnering a huge fan base, and a big part of why that happened is the sort of “brand” that developed of “bunch of friends getting together to make games we love from the heart”. It’s basically been their mission statement and key to success, so of course they’d embrace that ideal and culture wholeheartedly.
Now you’ve got a legit company, with a lot of employees who are not part of the original friend group, but you’ve got to stay true to your roots because that’s what got you this far and that’s why you’re all here in the first place. So all your friends get executive positions, including the 1 or 2 friends that are shit human beings that you keep around for fun. Time goes on, you hear some shit through the grapevine about some bad stuff they do, and you pull them aside as a friend and say “dude, Afrasiabi you can’t do that kinda shit anymore. Cut it out.” And you get a “fine fine, my bad. We cool?” “Yeah of course we are, it’s just this is like a big deal now so we gotta step up.”
Spoiler alert, they don’t step up and just do more to hide it from you. They get together with some others in the friend group and say “dude Mike is letting this shit get to his head. This all started because we wanted to hang out and have fun and do whatever the fuck we want, right Chris?”
Anyway, it’s basically a fan-fiction but the point is I could very easily see this situation having happened. It’s exactly why it’s a bad idea to mix friendship and work.
On July 25 2021 17:10 BaneRiders wrote: One current Blizzard employee, Josh “Devolore” Allen, calls Morhaime’s statement “100% bullshit,” alleging the former executive knew what was going on within the company.
“‘If I’d known this was happening I would have stopped it’ says the man who was told repeatedly that it was happening and did nothing to stop it
“I’ve refrained from giving my own comments on the situation at Actiblizz because frankly, there are more important people you should be listening to right now. But that statement from a certain former leader was 100% bullshit and I’m furious about it.
“He knew. He did nothing. Don’t get me wrong, current leadership is fucking up hard right now too. But please don’t believe for a second that the culture that allowed all of this to happen for the last couple of decades was somehow built by the guy who’s been in charge for 3 years.”
As noted by Massively OP, Brack is one of the parties listed in California’s suit against Activision Blizzard, for not taking “effective remedial measures” when it came to claims made by female employees.
Easy enough to explain that he's trying to cover his own ass by throwing blame at bigger fish. A VERY common tactic.
If my state of California has much evidence as they claim to have. We will know who the actual guilty parties are VERY soon.
Is it very common that your state sues companies for discrimination against women generally and pregnant employees, sexual harassment, retaliation and unequal pay?
If I'm being honest, I do not know. Honest answer.
I do not know how often this happens, because it rarely comes up in my day to day conversations. This is the first time I've heard of a high profile California based company coming under this kind of fire. I really have no idea how often this happens. I could possibly find out if I tried hard enough to do research on the topic, but I don't have enough motivation to do that at the moment, I have enough going on.
On July 25 2021 17:10 BaneRiders wrote: One current Blizzard employee, Josh “Devolore” Allen, calls Morhaime’s statement “100% bullshit,” alleging the former executive knew what was going on within the company.
“‘If I’d known this was happening I would have stopped it’ says the man who was told repeatedly that it was happening and did nothing to stop it
“I’ve refrained from giving my own comments on the situation at Actiblizz because frankly, there are more important people you should be listening to right now. But that statement from a certain former leader was 100% bullshit and I’m furious about it.
“He knew. He did nothing. Don’t get me wrong, current leadership is fucking up hard right now too. But please don’t believe for a second that the culture that allowed all of this to happen for the last couple of decades was somehow built by the guy who’s been in charge for 3 years.”
As noted by Massively OP, Brack is one of the parties listed in California’s suit against Activision Blizzard, for not taking “effective remedial measures” when it came to claims made by female employees.
Easy enough to explain that he's trying to cover his own ass by throwing blame at bigger fish. A VERY common tactic.
If my state of California has much evidence as they claim to have. We will know who the actual guilty parties are VERY soon.
Is it very common that your state sues companies for discrimination against women generally and pregnant employees, sexual harassment, retaliation and unequal pay?
If I'm being honest, I do not know. Honest answer.
I do not know how often this happens, because it rarely comes up in my day to day conversations. This is the first time I've heard of a high profile California based company coming under this kind of fire. I really have no idea how often this happens. I could possibly find out if I tried hard enough to do research on the topic, but I don't have enough motivation to do that at the moment, I have enough going on.
Yeah, no need to do any research. I asked, because I have never heard of anything like this before, but I live on the other side of the world so I could easily have missed similar cases. It would be interesting to know about rulings of earlier cases course, if the companies were found to be guilty.
On July 22 2021 18:30 MockHamill wrote: This is one of the reasons I why I prefer a work environment where the male/female ratio is even. Eighty percent men often leads to a dysfunctional work environment.
Ultimately it the leaders that create the culture though. If the top is rotten the rest of the company will follow.
Agreed, but unfortunately practically impossible in the IT industry. I've worked in programming companies which have had a massive focus on hiring women, and only ended up with a ratio of 1/30. There just aren't enough of them in industry, tho recent numbers from universities seems to indicate the ratio is going up.
That said, as other's have pointed out, company culture always comes from the top down. You can have a male weighted company without it being a massive dickfest. I have worked for several companies with massive problems, but testosterone has never been one of them. If the CEO hires people with good attitudes, they will in turn hire people with good attitude, etc. If the CEO is an asshole and hires likeminded, then shit stars flowing downhill
On July 25 2021 18:18 Vindicare605 wrote: If my state of California has as much evidence as they claim to have. We will know who the actual guilty parties are VERY soon.
Very soon..so in 5-10 years? That's usually what very soon means in these types of cases, with this many people and evidence involved
On July 26 2021 05:46 Cricketer12 wrote: I really hope frost giant peeps weren't doing this...
I get the strong impression that a lot of the people leaving Blizzard were doing it to get away from the cultural issues, while new hires were being selected to fit in to such a deranged environment.
A lot of it has been publically on show as well, with Blizzard forum moderators instabanning anybody who brings it up and even r/wow mods making automod filters to delete any message that mentions certain abusive acts within Blizzard. Make no mistake, they've been complicit all of the way down. People don't like to think badly of their idols even when it's staring them in the face.
On July 26 2021 05:46 Cricketer12 wrote: I really hope frost giant peeps weren't doing this...
From what I've heard, it's largely associates of some of the veterans (Morhaime) and senior people. But some teams were notorious for it because of the bro culture, while others were pretty much free of it and more wholesome.
While I think it's good that there's action being taken, it's laughable when people think this is remotely unique to Blizzard. The state will have to sue the entire video game industry, because stuff like this is prevalent everywhere. Riot is even worse, apparently, but they do pay more!
On July 25 2021 02:03 Charoisaur wrote: "Some of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment"
Too soon?
Oh my god, this is the funniest thing I will read all week.
As for the news itself, this is really sad. I would never be surprised to hear the Blizzard of old was up to shit like this, as has been heavily suggested. The one thing I thought may have improved from "going all corporate" with Activision was getting rid of shit like this.
Team 1 (SC) is apparently run by good people so that's that.
Unfortunately it's not. No matter how much praise gets heaped at the OGs at Blizzard there will be witch hunters searching for the biggest fish they can fry. So they will keep coming for them. Not for any logical reason, only to further their own notieriety as being the person who got this person fired.
This is the witch hunter culture of twitter, and ESPECIALLY in situations like this they are the most destructive and toxic culture on the internet.
What we need here is facts. We need to know who is responsible, who let this go on, and who the fucking asshole was that brought butt plugs on a business trip.
The witch hunters will want to skewer fucking EVERYONE whether they are guilty or not. They need to be kept in check, because all they do is create an equally toxic counter movement of apologists that will stick up for everyone just to balance out their zealous hunting.
It's so fucked. Everytime something like this comes up, this same dynamic plays out. I'm fucking sick of it. Get the facts, get the evidence, prosecute accordingly. People are going after people like Mike SPECIFICALLY because he's popular even though by most verified accounts he had nothing to do with any of this.
Very soon..so in 5-10 years? That's usually what very soon means in these types of cases, with this many people and evidence involved
If that's how long this takes, that's how long it takes. Do you want this shit done properly? or do you want to hang a man just to say you did something quickly?
This case has developed over the course of years, it might take years to resolve. Are you really surprised about that? What is the fucking alternative?
Are we just going to cruficy EVERYONE? What century are we living in here? The guilty get punished, the innocent go free. That's the goal. That takes time, trying to rush it for some ridiculous sense of vengeance especially when you ARE NOT one of the aggrieved is barbaic. Simple as that.
AND
Just to clarify before people start throwing ad hominems at me. I want the guilty people described in this lawsuit punished. I want them fired, sanctioned, fined, as much as the law can possibly throw at them that is what I want.
I DO NOT want people punished who simply worked there and had nothing to do with the harassment that took place there. Especially those in the lower rungs who didn't want to risk their own job by ratting out their superior.
I want this done right. I want justice to be served. Witch Hunts are not fucking justice. Do it right. Get evidence, prosecute accordingly. Seal the deal. California says they have enough. So let's have them prove it.
She said Morhaime was a good guy, so no reason to go after him.While i hope she gets justice in court, reading through her tweets on her account just reminded me why i gave up on Blizzard and other big devs a decade ago and just focus on smaller development companies now.
The writing was on the wall long before War 3 Reforged, Diablo Mobile game and the Hong Kong drama.
On July 26 2021 17:53 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: She said Morhaime was a good guy, so no reason to go after him.While i hope she gets justice in court, reading through her tweets on her account just reminded me why i gave up on Blizzard and other big devs a decade ago and just focus on smaller development companies now.
The writing was on the wall long before War 3 Reforged, Diablo Mobile game and the Hong Kong drama.
Indeed it was. The writing has been on the wall for a long while. I didn't want to admit it, but honestly ever since Cataclysm the writing has been there. Blizzard has gotten progressively worse.
The Blizzard of old would have never released WoL when they did, the way that it was. Do you remember how fucking bad B.NET 2.0 was when it launched? Old blizzard would never have let that happen.
It just got worse and worse as time went on, and that period of getting worse and worse is now at this point nearly 10 years.
Blizzard was poisoned and is dying a slow and painful death. Only now at the end does everyone actually see it.
Being a good guy who is sorry and says he'll do better is not a magic wand that absolves one for helping foster a culture of sexual harassment in your company (and letting it go on and thus tacitly indicating that its okay IS helping foster this sort of garbage behavior). Its nice that Morhaime seems to be a genuine person who wants to do better, and Im sure he will do better in the future, but that doesn't make the culture at Blizzard that festered under his leadership not his responsibility.
On July 26 2021 17:53 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: She said Morhaime was a good guy, so no reason to go after him.While i hope she gets justice in court, reading through her tweets on her account just reminded me why i gave up on Blizzard and other big devs a decade ago and just focus on smaller development companies now.
The writing was on the wall long before War 3 Reforged, Diablo Mobile game and the Hong Kong drama.
Indeed it was. The writing has been on the wall for a long while. I didn't want to admit it, but honestly ever since Cataclysm the writing has been there. Blizzard has gotten progressively worse.
The Blizzard of old would have never released WoL when they did, the way that it was. Do you remember how fucking bad B.NET 2.0 was when it launched? Old blizzard would never have let that happen.
It just got worse and worse as time went on, and that period of getting worse and worse is now at this point nearly 10 years.
Blizzard was poisoned and is dying a slow and painful death. Only now at the end does everyone actually see it.
What? Alex Afrasiabi was hired to Blizzard in fuckin' 2004. Thats the year original World of Warcraft released, let alone all the way to Cata. This isn't a new development, the owner of Blizzard's own Cosby Room had been with the company for more than half of Blizzard's existence.
Also I cant tell if youre bemoaning Blizzard's bad culture as having an impact on their game development, but if so you really can't set the timeline at 2010 when the offenders had been with the company for years at that point.
Old Blizzard was still a company that had sex pests.
On July 26 2021 18:09 Zambrah wrote: Being a good guy who is sorry and says he'll do better is not a magic wand that absolves one for helping foster a culture of sexual harassment in your company (and letting it go on and thus tacitly indicating that its okay IS helping foster this sort of garbage behavior). Its nice that Morhaime seems to be a genuine person who wants to do better, and Im sure he will do better in the future, but that doesn't make the culture at Blizzard that festered under his leadership not his responsibility.
On July 26 2021 17:53 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: She said Morhaime was a good guy, so no reason to go after him.While i hope she gets justice in court, reading through her tweets on her account just reminded me why i gave up on Blizzard and other big devs a decade ago and just focus on smaller development companies now.
The writing was on the wall long before War 3 Reforged, Diablo Mobile game and the Hong Kong drama.
Indeed it was. The writing has been on the wall for a long while. I didn't want to admit it, but honestly ever since Cataclysm the writing has been there. Blizzard has gotten progressively worse.
The Blizzard of old would have never released WoL when they did, the way that it was. Do you remember how fucking bad B.NET 2.0 was when it launched? Old blizzard would never have let that happen.
It just got worse and worse as time went on, and that period of getting worse and worse is now at this point nearly 10 years.
Blizzard was poisoned and is dying a slow and painful death. Only now at the end does everyone actually see it.
What? Alex Afrasiabi was hired to Blizzard in fuckin' 2004. Thats the year original World of Warcraft released, let alone all the way to Cata. This isn't a new development, the owner of Blizzard's own Cosby Room had been with the company for more than half of Blizzard's existence.
Also I cant tell if youre bemoaning Blizzard's bad culture as having an impact on their game development, but if so you really can't set the timeline at 2010 when the offenders had been with the company for years at that point.
Old Blizzard was still a company that had sex pests.
No I'm separating the two in that last post. I don't have any idea how long the harassment culture has been there.
I was bemoaning the lack of quality in their actual game products and by my own anedctotal memory I place the pin back in when Cataclysm launched that I started to notice a decline.
I have no idea how long the toxic culture was there, and since the testimonies are so all over the place in terms of timeline (at least the ones that get quoted off of twitter anyway) I don't think anyone can as of now tell me how far back this goes.
I'm waiting for the findings of discovery (that's legal terminology for when the evidence of the prosecution gets released to the defense, and the court, and possibly the public) to determine with actual certainty how far back the toxic culture goes. Until then it's all heresay, there's a damn large amount of it, so we KNOW that the culture was bad. But until the case proceeds further, no one can make a determinate guess as to how far back this goes. It can go 20 even 30 years back. Making guesses until then is just that, guesses.
Like I said in my previous post. Wait for the evidence. For all we know Alex Afrasiabi was the main culprit, he could also have nothing to do with it. Anyone saying otherwise that wasn't there is just quoting heresay.
Alex Afrasiabi is explicitly named as having had a room that the legal documents refer to as “The Cosby Room,” referencing sexual predator Bill Cosby. The state has been investigating this for two years, this is not some fresh thing they’ve just started looking into, they’ve been looking into it for years and Blizzard was given a chance to improve company culture which they did not do to California’s satisfaction.
Given Afrasiabi was hired in 2004 its safe to assume that around 2004 is a period adjacent to or within Blizzard’s culture of sexual abuse, given Afrasiabi is a named sexual predator by the state of California’s legal documentation.
Alex Afrasiabi, the former Senior Creative Director of World of Warcraft at Blizzard Entertainment, was permitted to engage in blatant sexual harassment with little to no repercussions. During a company event (an annual convention called Blizz Con) Afrasiabi would hit on female employees, telling him he wanted to marry them, attempting to kiss them, and putting, his arms around them. This was in plain view of other male employees, including supervisors, who had to intervene and pull him off female employees. Afrasiabi was so known to engage in harassment of females that his suite was nicknamed the “Crosby Suite” after alleged rapist Bill Crosby.
California would not be bringing a colossal corporation like ActiBlizz to court without a very substantial chance of winning their case.
Has their doc if you want to read it, but we’re past the point of this all being rumors, there is a real case here and the likes of JAB and Afrasiabi are firmly in the wrong.
Very soon..so in 5-10 years? That's usually what very soon means in these types of cases, with this many people and evidence involved
If that's how long this takes, that's how long it takes. Do you want this shit done properly? or do you want to hang a man just to say you did something quickly?
This case has developed over the course of years, it might take years to resolve. Are you really surprised about that? What is the fucking alternative?
Dude, calm down with your strawmen please.. and calm down in general too. No one here is out to get you
Why would I be "surprised" by a number I pulled out of my own ass? You were the one who wrote, quote, "VERY soon", 5-10 years is not VERY anything, but that is the amount of time it takes if you want it done properly, as you yourself pointed out. I did not comment on whether that was good, bad, or didn't matter at all. I just commented unemotionally on the fact that cases of this magnitude takes a long time, and we won't be seeing the results of this VERY soon at all
Honestly we've known Alex Afrasiabi was a piece of trash since the Everquest / Fires of Heaven days. Dude was a whiny petulant child back then who absolutely had to "dominate" everyone or he was throwing a fit. For those who don't know, he ran one of the most successful guilds of early Everquest (Fires of Heaven) and always, and i mean always, bitched and moaned on his website about the state of the game to his huge fanbase, which put immense pressure on the developers to change their vision in order to cope with this guy. This'll only be relevant to EQ players but, Wanna know why we had crazy key systems that took weeks *per person* to do when you need 40+ people keyed? Wanna know why Epics were so crazy and difficult? Wanna know why Trakanon was the (absurd) bottleneck to Veeshan's Peak? Not to mention all of what Luclins endgame was ? It was to stop Alex's guild from repeating their cycle of steam rolling content the week it released and going on his website and pressuring people to quit the game. Its well documented that the team behind everquest repeatedly had to push out content that was NOT ready *because* of this guy pressuring them by threatening to quit / influence everyone else to quit. He had power already back then, and he abused the fuck out of it. Blizzard took a chance on him because he seemed to have a good vision of MMO game design [arguable, imo] - but they never stopped to recognize this fuck was abusing his power by harrassing and threatening game devs and he was 100% a liability. Blizzard is reaping the rewards of that now, that guy never deserved to be in any position of power at all, i hold him pretty responsible for having a hand in destroying what made Everquest great and I can't forgive him for that (Seriously, the dude had MASSIVE influence on the direction of the game, particularly end game, look into his story sometime and how he pressured the devs, its disgusting)
On July 26 2021 21:23 BadBorz1 wrote: This is bullshit, they like to attack big companies to steal them (legally) money.
Are you sure?
I'm with Sterling. When this happens to one or two of the big publishers you have a problem with those publishers. When it happens to all of them you have a problem in your industry. And nothing is being or will be done about it. Why bother when the people running the companies are already hated and don't care if they look like a bunch of pricks?
I'm with Sterling. When this happens to one or two of the big publishers you have a problem with those publishers. When it happens to all of them you have a problem in your industry. And nothing is being or will be done about it. Why bother when the people running the companies are already hated and don't care if they look like a bunch of pricks?
On July 26 2021 21:23 BadBorz1 wrote: This is bullshit, they like to attack big companies to steal them (legally) money.
Yes, because there's no possibility that Blizzard might have a culture problem, and there's no possibility that people throughout the company experienced serious harassment and discrimination. It must be bad actors looking to take Blizzard's money. There's no other explanation for a harassment and discrimination lawsuit.
If your angle is to vilify the victims of massive systemic issues at Blizzard and paint them as malicious actors bent on destroying poor innocent Blizzard, you can fuck off with that shit right now.
On July 26 2021 21:23 BadBorz1 wrote: This is bullshit, they like to attack big companies to steal them (legally) money.
Yes, because there's no possibility that Blizzard might have a culture problem, and there's no possibility that people throughout the company experienced serious harassment and discrimination. It must be bad actors looking to take Blizzard's money. There's no other explanation for a harassment and discrimination lawsuit.
If your angle is to vilify the victims of massive systemic issues at Blizzard and paint them as malicious actors bent on destroying poor innocent Blizzard, you can fuck off with that shit right now.
I'm surprised you haven't been warned for that reply just yet but man, some people really do need to be talked to in a more brutal way.
On July 26 2021 21:23 BadBorz1 wrote: This is bullshit, they like to attack big companies to steal them (legally) money.
Yes, because there's no possibility that Blizzard might have a culture problem, and there's no possibility that people throughout the company experienced serious harassment and discrimination. It must be bad actors looking to take Blizzard's money. There's no other explanation for a harassment and discrimination lawsuit.
If your angle is to vilify the victims of massive systemic issues at Blizzard and paint them as malicious actors bent on destroying poor innocent Blizzard, you can fuck off with that shit right now.
I'm surprised you haven't been warned for that reply just yet but man, some people really do need to be talked to in a more brutal way.
I am not apologetic in the least for saying what I have. When it comes to abuse within structures of power, I take Blizzard's company hierarchy at face value: executives have all the power over rank and file employees. I side with the stories of victims because I find it much more believable that someone with no power is abused by someone with power than the other way around. And believe it or not, money is not a motivator for everything.
Well Blizzard sticks guys like Demuslim in the booth when he talks about opponents raping each other... this is all in character.
The video game industry and community has a long history of misogyny and defending those who are misogynistic.
I mean, this is a quote from a longtime moderator of this forum:
Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
And if you say anything about it, you get silenced.
Funny thing is, gaming culture is not in line with how society views this topic. It isn't up to any one person what is offensive and what it isn't, it is up to all of us. It's a democracy. If you choose to be out of line, there are consequences. For some, that means sitting alone in the lunch room, for others, that means sitting alone in jail.
Blizzard is going to lose, so they will settle outside of court.
On July 27 2021 01:26 BronzeKnee wrote: Well Blizzard sticks guys like Demuslim in the booth when he talks about opponents raping each other... this is all in character.
The video game industry and community has a long history of misogyny and defending those who are misogynistic.
I mean, this is a quote from a longtime moderator of this forum:
Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
And if you say anything about it, you get silenced.
When were those said to be fair?
TL is one of the best examples there is out there of a space that largely has done a good job at evolving out of the most negative parts of gaming culture and showing that nothing of particular value has to be lost
*Edit to your edit* I’d disagree that gaming culture is particularly misaligned with wider societal norms, it’s just similar concepts expressed with the filters off.
Literally any comment thread about some kind of sexual abuse case will have a million and one comments embodying all the various aspects of victim blaming, to take one example.
On July 27 2021 01:26 BronzeKnee wrote: Well Blizzard sticks guys like Demuslim in the booth when he talks about opponents raping each other... this is all in character.
The video game industry and community has a long history of misogyny and defending those who are misogynistic.
I mean, this is a quote from a longtime moderator of this forum:
Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
And if you say anything about it, you get silenced.
When were those said to be fair?
Does it matter?
I'd argue it does not, unless they disavowed those comments later. And that is in line with how our society views this topic.
Time is a construct. It is not the movement of the clock that changes a mind, it is the movement of a mind.
Literally any comment thread about some kind of sexual abuse case will have a million and one comments embodying all the various aspects of victim blaming, to take one example.
I'm not sure this has anything to do with anything. The fact people act poorly is not a reason to act poorly. My point was to show that this community was immersed in this, and that was shown with Demuslim's use of the word rape and the large community defense of it. And Blizzard was running the show in many events. It drips down from the top, so if you are shocked Blizzard is in legal hot water now, well this a good lesson for you. Where there is smoke, there is fire. There is years of evidence of Blizzard condoning poor behavior all over.
So it wasn't just some random guy on a thread.
It doesn't seem like you're here to deny what I said either. Just trying to deflect, but people are losing their job for offensive material they posted years ago on Facebook. And that is because most of us have realized, time is not a defense.
On July 26 2021 21:23 BadBorz1 wrote: This is bullshit, they like to attack big companies to steal them (legally) money.
Yes, because there's no possibility that Blizzard might have a culture problem, and there's no possibility that people throughout the company experienced serious harassment and discrimination. It must be bad actors looking to take Blizzard's money. There's no other explanation for a harassment and discrimination lawsuit.
If your angle is to vilify the victims of massive systemic issues at Blizzard and paint them as malicious actors bent on destroying poor innocent Blizzard, you can fuck off with that shit right now.
I'm surprised you haven't been warned for that reply just yet but man, some people really do need to be talked to in a more brutal way.
I remember a time when people were warned for even the most vanilla negative comments towards Blizzard. How times change eh?
On July 26 2021 22:06 TentativePanda wrote: Nerds don’t know how to be around women
Sorry if I missed a joke or sarcasm, but this isn't a "nerd" problem as it is a toxic culture problem
Stereotypically "un-nerdy" organizations (like sports teams) have also had similar scandals of sexual harassment / abuse as well. Once an organization lets the first "bad apple" or incident slide, it sets a precedent and message to the entire group to keep doing stuff like that
On July 27 2021 01:26 BronzeKnee wrote: Well Blizzard sticks guys like Demuslim in the booth when he talks about opponents raping each other... this is all in character.
The video game industry and community has a long history of misogyny and defending those who are misogynistic.
I mean, this is a quote from a longtime moderator of this forum:
Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
And if you say anything about it, you get silenced.
Funny thing is, gaming culture is not in line with how society views this topic. It isn't up to any one person what is offensive and what it isn't, it is up to all of us. It's a democracy. If you choose to be out of line, there are consequences. For some, that means sitting alone in the lunch room, for others, that means sitting alone in jail.
Blizzard is going to lose, so they will settle outside of court.
I don't think this is the best example of misogyny, like, how did talking about 2 (presumably) men "raping" each other has anything to do with misogyny? People might even think it's promotion of homosexuality. People also use "rape" in sport, at least in football I know, so this is no way a gaming culture exclusive problem.
On July 22 2021 18:30 MockHamill wrote: This is one of the reasons I why I prefer a work environment where the male/female ratio is even. Eighty percent men often leads to a dysfunctional work environment.
Ultimately it the leaders that create the culture though. If the top is rotten the rest of the company will follow.
Unless you force women to do the work there won't be any. Basically all the western IT companies are trying to hire more women and there aren't enough of them. There's a reason for the ratio being shifted in many jobs and it's because some are more attracted to it than the other.
On July 27 2021 01:26 BronzeKnee wrote: Well Blizzard sticks guys like Demuslim in the booth when he talks about opponents raping each other... this is all in character.
The video game industry and community has a long history of misogyny and defending those who are misogynistic.
I mean, this is a quote from a longtime moderator of this forum:
Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
And if you say anything about it, you get silenced.
Funny thing is, gaming culture is not in line with how society views this topic. It isn't up to any one person what is offensive and what it isn't, it is up to all of us. It's a democracy. If you choose to be out of line, there are consequences. For some, that means sitting alone in the lunch room, for others, that means sitting alone in jail.
Blizzard is going to lose, so they will settle outside of court.
I don't think this is the best example of misogyny, like, how did talking about 2 (presumably) men "raping" each other has anything to do with misogyny? People might even think it's promotion of homosexuality. People also use "rape" in sport, at least in football I know, so this is no way a gaming culture exclusive problem.
Especially when it happens to males as well. There's a reason why all the soap jokes in the US movies and series exist...
On July 27 2021 01:26 BronzeKnee wrote: Well Blizzard sticks guys like Demuslim in the booth when he talks about opponents raping each other... this is all in character.
The video game industry and community has a long history of misogyny and defending those who are misogynistic.
I mean, this is a quote from a longtime moderator of this forum:
Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
And if you say anything about it, you get silenced.
When were those said to be fair?
Does it matter?
I'd argue it does not, unless they disavowed those comments later. And that is in line with how our society views this topic.
Time is a construct. It is not the movement of the clock that changes a mind, it is the movement of a mind.
Are you willing to stand for every single one of your 5153 posts made here in the last 10 years? I'm not. I've said a lot of shit I don't agree with any more.
"Time is a construct" is just a bad excuse. Time does, in fact, move forward, and people are not the same as they were 10 years ago (Thank god. I was an asshole back then... ok, still am to some degree). Digging up old posts and claim they are the current views of "moderators at TL" (Who all have their own, often conflicting, views on any given matter) is not an argument made in good faith.
Culture also changes with time. 20 years ago, "rape" was a perfectly normal word to use in gaming culture. 10 years ago, it was still in use, but slowly being phased out due to pushback. Nowadays, I'd say it's not an ok word to use any more. But that doesn't mean this was always the case. Holding people's previous opinions which aligned with the culture back then against them in the current climate is just counterproductive, and how we're getting these Twitter which hunts which are so popular nowadays.
So yes, it does matter
edit: Just looked it up. This post was made 11 years ago. If that is all the "dirt" you managed to dig up on TL moderators, I'm willing to go out on a limb and say they're doing a pretty good job all things considered
On July 27 2021 01:26 BronzeKnee wrote: Well Blizzard sticks guys like Demuslim in the booth when he talks about opponents raping each other... this is all in character.
The video game industry and community has a long history of misogyny and defending those who are misogynistic.
I mean, this is a quote from a longtime moderator of this forum:
Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
And if you say anything about it, you get silenced.
Funny thing is, gaming culture is not in line with how society views this topic. It isn't up to any one person what is offensive and what it isn't, it is up to all of us. It's a democracy. If you choose to be out of line, there are consequences. For some, that means sitting alone in the lunch room, for others, that means sitting alone in jail.
Blizzard is going to lose, so they will settle outside of court.
I don't think this is the best example of misogyny, like, how did talking about 2 (presumably) men "raping" each other has anything to do with misogyny? People might even think it's promotion of homosexuality. People also use "rape" in sport, at least in football I know, so this is no way a gaming culture exclusive problem.
No.
Can we not start down this track please. "Men are just more inclined to work IT" because tech offices are still bro-y and misogynistic as fuck. The man:woman ratio at Blizzard is fucked up because it was a bunch of bros who had to have a talk to decide that women could even be in the company. You had examples posted in this thread from a woman who literally could not get credit for a single one of her own concepts, because the dude that works over her decided he wanted all the credit. Leadership-promoted company culture is responsible, as it always is.
On July 27 2021 01:26 BronzeKnee wrote: Well Blizzard sticks guys like Demuslim in the booth when he talks about opponents raping each other... this is all in character.
The video game industry and community has a long history of misogyny and defending those who are misogynistic.
I mean, this is a quote from a longtime moderator of this forum:
Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
And if you say anything about it, you get silenced.
Funny thing is, gaming culture is not in line with how society views this topic. It isn't up to any one person what is offensive and what it isn't, it is up to all of us. It's a democracy. If you choose to be out of line, there are consequences. For some, that means sitting alone in the lunch room, for others, that means sitting alone in jail.
Blizzard is going to lose, so they will settle outside of court.
I don't think this is the best example of misogyny, like, how did talking about 2 (presumably) men "raping" each other has anything to do with misogyny? People might even think it's promotion of homosexuality. People also use "rape" in sport, at least in football I know, so this is no way a gaming culture exclusive problem.
No.
Can we not start down this track please. "Men are just more inclined to work IT" because tech offices are still bro-y and misogynistic as fuck. The man:woman ratio at Blizzard is fucked up because it was a bunch of bros who had to have a talk to decide that women could even be in the company. You had examples posted in this thread from a woman who literally could not get credit for a single one of her own concepts, because the dude that works over her decided he wanted all the credit. Leadership-promoted company culture is responsible, as it always is.
This just isn't true. Women still aren't going into IT even in countries where office bromances aren't culturally a thing. Women are just currently, for reasons I can't explain, more attracted to other types of STEM degrees instead. And yes, for the most part, today you need a degree to work in IT (Or experience, which you won't get without a degree). I couldn't find any hard data on the specific number, but based on personal experiences of both myself and others across the world, you're likely looking at a 1/10 women to men ratio in the IT industry.
That does, of course, not excuse Blizzards behaviour. You don't get to behave like mindless bro-monkeys just because there's less women around. But just the fact that they have less women working for them isn't something they can be blamed for. I've worked at a company who spent money on ads, networking, student thesis's, etc, and still couldn't do better than 1/30 (They were all programmers tho. You can find more women working as sysadmins and in management)
On July 27 2021 01:26 BronzeKnee wrote: Well Blizzard sticks guys like Demuslim in the booth when he talks about opponents raping each other... this is all in character.
The video game industry and community has a long history of misogyny and defending those who are misogynistic.
I mean, this is a quote from a longtime moderator of this forum:
Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
And if you say anything about it, you get silenced.
When were those said to be fair?
Does it matter?
I'd argue it does not, unless they disavowed those comments later. And that is in line with how our society views this topic.
Time is a construct. It is not the movement of the clock that changes a mind, it is the movement of a mind.
Literally any comment thread about some kind of sexual abuse case will have a million and one comments embodying all the various aspects of victim blaming, to take one example.
I'm not sure this has anything to do with anything. The fact people act poorly is not a reason to act poorly. My point was to show that this community was immersed in this, and that was shown with Demuslim's use of the word rape and the large community defense of it. And Blizzard was running the show in many events. It drips down from the top, so if you are shocked Blizzard is in legal hot water now, well this a good lesson for you. Where there is smoke, there is fire. There is years of evidence of Blizzard condoning poor behavior all over.
So it wasn't just some random guy on a thread.
It doesn't seem like you're here to deny what I said either. Just trying to deflect, but people are losing their job for offensive material they posted years ago on Facebook. And that is because most of us have realized, time is not a defense.
Take responsibility.
Well absolutely, as you said, take responsibility.
I was quibbling when these comments were made because, not being a big Redditor etc or a browser of other areas the SC2 community hang out, of online communities I’m in it seems TL have taken tangible steps to change the environment for the better, so I just didn’t think that was the best illustrative example.
Agree with what you’re saying though, I’m not sure why people are shocked that a place can make games they love and also be a shit environment for women, the two things are totally separate.
On July 27 2021 23:18 Excludos wrote: Culture also changes with time. 20 years ago, "rape" was a perfectly normal word to use in gaming culture. 10 years ago, it was still in use, but slowly being phased out due to pushback. Nowadays, I'd say it's not an ok word to use any more. But that doesn't mean this was always the case. Holding people's previous opinions which aligned with the culture back then against them in the current climate is just counterproductive, and how we're getting these Twitter which hunts which are so popular nowadays.
Yeah, this was true for me as well. As teenagers 20+ years ago we used "rape" and "gay" (as an insult) all the time. I agree with the rest of your post too.
Rape is such a dumb hill to die on. Everyone agrees that it’s triggering to the part of the audience that has some sort of trauma related to sexual assault. There’s no debate over whether some people have been raped and whether some of those people don’t like to be reminded about that. We’re all in total agreement that rape happens.
We’re also in total agreement that in a free society you are free to remind people of their trauma with your words. You’re not responsible for other people’s trauma and there’s no legal obligation not to trigger people.
The whole argument is whether you should knowingly hurt part of your audience. On the one side you have people with basic human decency who, after being made aware that they’re hurting people and that it would cost nothing to stop, just stop. On the other you have sociopaths who are told that their words are hurting people and respond “I do know I’m hurting some of my audience but technically I’m allowed to do that so I’m just going to keep doing it”.
Like how hard is it to just not be an asshole. Intent isn’t a defence if you know you’re hurting people.
I don't think anyone is currently arguing that we should be using the word rape the way it once was used. But the question is whether everyone who did use it that way when it was culturally common should be taken to account for it now.
On July 28 2021 03:32 Starlightsun wrote: I don't think anyone is currently arguing that we should be using the word rape the way it once was used. But the question is whether everyone who did use it that way when it was culturally common should be taken to account for it now.
Then no. But it’s a perfectly valid source for the prevailing culture back then. If someone is alleging that someone was an ass a few years ago then a record of their actions a few years ago is absolutely valid, whether or not they’ve changed since then.
Extremely hard for many people. As somebody who is a minority in several major ways myself, most of the social groups that i've left online have been because of people who just can't stop being an asshole about it.
Probably an even bigger problem though has been the silent majority of people who see this happening but do absolutely nothing to step in, change or moderate it, even after it's made clear that it's an issue. If there is a problem with somebodies behavior and you're the one bringing it up, it's very easy for you to become the problem in their eyes. I see many reports of the same thing happening inside Blizzard.
On July 26 2021 21:23 BadBorz1 wrote: This is bullshit, they like to attack big companies to steal them (legally) money.
Yes, because there's no possibility that Blizzard might have a culture problem, and there's no possibility that people throughout the company experienced serious harassment and discrimination. It must be bad actors looking to take Blizzard's money. There's no other explanation for a harassment and discrimination lawsuit.
If your angle is to vilify the victims of massive systemic issues at Blizzard and paint them as malicious actors bent on destroying poor innocent Blizzard, you can fuck off with that shit right now.
I'm surprised you haven't been warned for that reply just yet but man, some people really do need to be talked to in a more brutal way.
I am not apologetic in the least for saying what I have. When it comes to abuse within structures of power, I take Blizzard's company hierarchy at face value: executives have all the power over rank and file employees. I side with the stories of victims because I find it much more believable that someone with no power is abused by someone with power than the other way around. And believe it or not, money is not a motivator for everything.
Didn't expect you to explain yourself to be honest, my comment was aimed at the fact people get warnings for less. I wouldn't be apologetic either since I agree.
Ending mandatory arbitration clauses in contracts, and publishing data about relative employee compensation, promotion rates, and salary ranges are ones Im very interested in since they're concrete things that ActiBlizz would have a hard time fucking up, intentionally or otherwise.
On July 26 2021 22:06 TentativePanda wrote: Nerds don’t know how to be around women
Sorry if I missed a joke or sarcasm, but this isn't a "nerd" problem as it is a toxic culture problem
Stereotypically "un-nerdy" organizations (like sports teams) have also had similar scandals of sexual harassment / abuse as well. Once an organization lets the first "bad apple" or incident slide, it sets a precedent and message to the entire group to keep doing stuff like that
I think it has more to do with being an industry that is a dream destination for many people. Any kind of entertainment (sports, music, movies, videogames), fashion and some other glamorized industry are full of stories where people are willing to work longer hours for smaller pay under an abusive work environment versus doing a similar job in a boring industry.
Did some light browsing and saw anecdotes of some people staying at Blizzard longer than they should have because they really loved the job and their non-asshole coworkers. Some who left the company still consider going back even after all that happened.
I live in California and can tell you that companies like the one I work for frequently lose employees to companies with shittier work environments just because they are more exciting.
Regarding DeMusliM's use of "rape" on broadcast, if it wasn't pointed out already, I found it very questionable that DeMusliM chose to adopt the <Method> tag basically immediately after the entire WoW raiding roster resigned out of protest [to form their own guild <Echo>] of Method's upper management knowingly harboring a [criminal] sex predator/groomer of underaged girls (Josh). I know that he did it out of a desire to support his fellow Brits, but as a prominent figure in the Starcraft 2 scene, I felt that it cast a distasteful pall over the entire SC2 community; that we do not support the victims of sexual assault or take their stories seriously. Perhaps it is too much to pin all of that on one man, but as part of the greater SC2 community, I felt personally let down by DeMusliM's hasty decision to adopt the <Method> clan tag. We should never condemn someone based on one questionable action, but when placed in the context of their history of actions, I am seeing a pattern begin to emerge here, just as with Activision-Blizzard.
On July 28 2021 07:05 andrewlt wrote: I live in California and can tell you that companies like the one I work for frequently lose employees to companies with shittier work environments just because they are more exciting.
This is a "reality of the marketplace" thing.
i've taken jobs in crappy environments because i knew i could gain a skill that wouldn't be offered to me in a better structured work environment. Often its because the business unit//department is growing too fast. i know others who've done the exact same thing i've done.
i know sales guys who worked in places with a fucked up culture and also a fucked up bonus structure they knew they could exploit. many aspects of the job were garbage... but they knew they could manipulate their commission levels. so they sucked it up .. put up with the BS and raked in the cash.
I put up with the crap and learned everything i could; My team pulled off the project and we put a bow on it. I added it to my portfolio and then I GTFO-ed.
lots of people do exactly that and have done it for decades. With today's whiney suckhole grievance culture people want a hero badge for doing it. meh.
Some of the whining i'm hearing makes me wonder how much life experience the whiners have. Welcome to the real world boys.
For years, Blizzard vet Samwise Didier referenced this speech in a 1992 movie in his twitter header. I wonder if he took it down? Any how, he specifically referenced Baldwin's catch phrase "A B C". This is Blizzard and this is the real world; this world ain't changing just because we showed up ~30 years ago.
Chris Metzen is denying he knew anything about Alex's misconduct.
I think Activision is going to feed a Blizzard employed sacrificial lamb to the rage mob. My guess is J. Allen Brack will be forced out. What has Blizzard made and released since Brack started in October 2018 ?
On July 28 2021 07:00 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: If one has to keep staging walkout's perhaps it is time to Unionize.
America really really need to start working on empowering unions again. Of course, their disenfranchise wasn't an accident in the first place.
It is worthy to note, however, that the systematic issues we're seeing in the AAA industry doesn't stop at the border. CDPR, Ubisoft and Konami all have a history of mistreating their employees in various ways
Ending mandatory arbitration clauses in contracts, and publishing data about relative employee compensation, promotion rates, and salary ranges are ones Im very interested in since they're concrete things that ActiBlizz would have a hard time fucking up, intentionally or otherwise.
And do you think these demands if met would lead to them making better games? Did they have these policies in place when they made their greatest games during the golden era? Interesting.
For Development section hiring - Remove Identifying information and then pick the people with the best portfolios, the best demos.Blizzard deserves to have the best working there, whatever their race or colour or sexual orientation.Removing identifying information allows for far less discrimination.
Audit and get rid of anyone found to have been sexually inappropriate.Do more work in-house again instead of dishing off to third parties like the remastered games and the new Diablo mobile game.If a game isn't good enough to release, don't.
The demands they've made there won't necessarily lead to better games, If some people are paid more because they are better workers and more skilled then so be it.
Ending mandatory arbitration clauses in contracts, and publishing data about relative employee compensation, promotion rates, and salary ranges are ones Im very interested in since they're concrete things that ActiBlizz would have a hard time fucking up, intentionally or otherwise.
And do you think these demands if met would lead to them making better games? Did they have these policies in place when they made their greatest games during the golden era? Interesting.
Why does that matter? Just because something didn't need fixing 30 years ago doesn't mean it doesn't need fixing now
Ending mandatory arbitration clauses in contracts, and publishing data about relative employee compensation, promotion rates, and salary ranges are ones Im very interested in since they're concrete things that ActiBlizz would have a hard time fucking up, intentionally or otherwise.
And do you think these demands if met would lead to them making better games? Did they have these policies in place when they made their greatest games during the golden era? Interesting.
Why does that matter? Just because something didn't need fixing 30 years ago doesn't mean it doesn't need fixing now
Not to mention that those things are completely unrelated. Making better games isn't or shouldn't be the only priority here.
On July 28 2021 07:05 andrewlt wrote: I live in California and can tell you that companies like the one I work for frequently lose employees to companies with shittier work environments just because they are more exciting.
This is a "reality of the marketplace" thing.
i've taken jobs in crappy environments because i knew i could gain a skill that wouldn't be offered to me in a better structured work environment. Often its because the business unit//department is growing too fast. i know others who've done the exact same thing i've done.
i know sales guys who worked in places with a fucked up culture and also a fucked up bonus structure they knew they could exploit. many aspects of the job were garbage... but they knew they could manipulate their commission levels. so they sucked it up .. put up with the BS and raked in the cash.
I put up with the crap and learned everything i could; My team pulled off the project and we put a bow on it. I added it to my portfolio and then I GTFO-ed.
lots of people do exactly that and have done it for decades. With today's whiney suckhole grievance culture people want a hero badge for doing it. meh.
Some of the whining i'm hearing makes me wonder how much life experience the whiners have. Welcome to the real world boys.
For years, Blizzard vet Samwise Didier referenced this speech in a 1992 movie in his twitter header. I wonder if he took it down? Any how, he specifically referenced Baldwin's catch phrase "A B C". This is Blizzard and this is the real world; this world ain't changing just because we showed up ~30 years ago.
I think Activision is going to feed a Blizzard employed sacrificial lamb to the rage mob. My guess is J. Allen Brack will be forced out. What has Blizzard made and released since Brack started in October 2018 ?
Well , maybe you should reconsider what you think is the real world my friend , I work in a company with no culture of sexual harassment (to my knowledge) of any kind , never seen it happen at least (was the same in my previous company to be honest), also it is EASY for me to know you are a man , probably have no kids or at least no girls , because I find it VERY hard to believe as a father that you will be OK with your baby girl growing up and being harassed and touched without consent on a daily basis at work , I know I might end up in court if I knew someone is doing it to my little girl.
Did I get your post wrong ? was I missing something in it ? or you actually called the complaints whining ? it must be that I missed something in your post..... it cannot be that you gave us some hero story how you worked in a shitty environment and left to tell the tale.....
I doubt that infantilizing your daughter does any good either.
I also don't think Jimmy was talking about sexual harrasment per se. Some Jobs/Teams just suck, you can either deal with it and try to profit as much as possible or leave. This is obviously not including illegal behaviour, thats another ballgame and taking legal action (and still quitting) should be normal.
Reading many posts here in general I mainly find myself wondering how bad north american work enviroments seem to be. Not that "Boyzclubs" don't exist here but the level demonstrated by some here? I feel like thats unheard off.
On July 28 2021 14:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: My sig keeps getting better with age.
On July 28 2021 07:05 andrewlt wrote: I live in California and can tell you that companies like the one I work for frequently lose employees to companies with shittier work environments just because they are more exciting.
This is a "reality of the marketplace" thing.
i've taken jobs in crappy environments because i knew i could gain a skill that wouldn't be offered to me in a better structured work environment. Often its because the business unit//department is growing too fast. i know others who've done the exact same thing i've done.
i know sales guys who worked in places with a fucked up culture and also a fucked up bonus structure they knew they could exploit. many aspects of the job were garbage... but they knew they could manipulate their commission levels. so they sucked it up .. put up with the BS and raked in the cash.
I put up with the crap and learned everything i could; My team pulled off the project and we put a bow on it. I added it to my portfolio and then I GTFO-ed.
lots of people do exactly that and have done it for decades. With today's whiney suckhole grievance culture people want a hero badge for doing it. meh.
Some of the whining i'm hearing makes me wonder how much life experience the whiners have. Welcome to the real world boys.
For years, Blizzard vet Samwise Didier referenced this speech in a 1992 movie in his twitter header. I wonder if he took it down? Any how, he specifically referenced Baldwin's catch phrase "A B C". This is Blizzard and this is the real world; this world ain't changing just because we showed up ~30 years ago.
I think Activision is going to feed a Blizzard employed sacrificial lamb to the rage mob. My guess is J. Allen Brack will be forced out. What has Blizzard made and released since Brack started in October 2018 ?
Well , maybe you should reconsider what you think is the real world my friend , I work in a company with no culture of sexual harassment (to my knowledge) of any kind , never seen it happen at least (was the same in my previous company to be honest), also it is EASY for me to know you are a man , probably have no kids or at least no girls , because I find it VERY hard to believe as a father that you will be OK with your baby girl growing up and being harassed and touched without consent on a daily basis at work , I know I might end up in court if I knew someone is doing it to my little girl.
Did I get your post wrong ? was I missing something in it ? or you actually called the complaints whining ? it must be that I missed something in your post..... it cannot be that you gave us some hero story how you worked in a shitty environment and left to tell the tale.....
when you very quickly hire thousands of people for a company with out of control growth you end up with some bad apples. These out of control growth scenarios creating a "wild west" mentality are many decades old. Check out the complaints against Atari founder Nolan Bushnell. THat happened around 1980. 40+ years ago.
The creator of Pacman made the equivalent of $100K USD to make the game. It went on to make $1 Billion in 1980 money. That is about $3 Billion in today's money and it went on to gross $7 Billion. It Absolutely crushed Star Wars. The creator received zero bonuses and went on to live an average middle class life.
"You're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembly the cartridges", 1979.
And this has what to do with the Blizzard lawsuit, exactly? "This is how it's always been" is not a response to anything. We know this is how it's always been. Shitty workplace cultures don't become acceptable because they've been shitty for a long time. They're still shitty and need fixed.
I've never understood the mentality of "Yeah, it's shitty, but it's always been shitty, so it's fine". Clearly, if it's shitty, it should be attempted to be fixed, no?
Lump that in with the "Well I had to do the shitty thing, so I don't see why it should be fixed" attitude as things that needs to go by the wayside if you actually want to experience some improvements in a society
On July 28 2021 22:59 Excludos wrote: I've never understood the mentality of "Yeah, it's shitty, but it's always been shitty, so it's fine". Clearly, if it's shitty, it should be attempted to be fixed, no?
Lump that in with the "Well I had to do the shitty thing, so I don't see why it should be fixed" attitude as things that needs to go by the wayside if you actually want to experience some improvements in a society
To me it reads more like 'my generation had to deal with alot of shit, so i won't accept a lesser amount of shit for any current generation'.
On July 27 2021 01:26 BronzeKnee wrote: Well Blizzard sticks guys like Demuslim in the booth when he talks about opponents raping each other... this is all in character.
The video game industry and community has a long history of misogyny and defending those who are misogynistic.
I mean, this is a quote from a longtime moderator of this forum:
Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
And if you say anything about it, you get silenced.
Funny thing is, gaming culture is not in line with how society views this topic. It isn't up to any one person what is offensive and what it isn't, it is up to all of us. It's a democracy. If you choose to be out of line, there are consequences. For some, that means sitting alone in the lunch room, for others, that means sitting alone in jail.
Blizzard is going to lose, so they will settle outside of court.
I don't really see changes taking place. Riot did nothing when similar allegations surfaced and the fall guy there left briefly and came back as COO. Blizzard is going to take similar steps, and there'll be no real action that takes place. I hope I'm wrong but it's just not something that changes quickly, or at all if the people in power don't care to change it.
the way the rank and file employees have villainized leadership is a masterstroke. we know a lot of those people participating in the walkout were themselves perpetrators of inappropriate behavior or were aware of inappropriate behavior and did nothing about it until a situation came along when they'd get applauded instead of possibly fired.
if you want to tolerate a toxic environment because it's what benefits you the most, that's fine, you can choose your battles, but normally you wouldn't expect the support/backing of the public when you take a selfish approach to a situation
personally i've blown up many situations in my life to my great personal detriment because of things that i viewed as intolerable. i dont understand living otherwise. why protect a life that's not even worth living? all the people who knew about this culture and did nothing prior to that poor woman killing herself ought to feel a great shame and responsibility
but let's all join hands in slacktivism together as we send thoughts and prayers and golfclap for the brave employees who are "risking" their financial security to protect victims now
nevermind that if people didnt tolerate it at all, then this would've blown up over a decade ago and all the victims between now and then wouldn't have been victims
The law firm that Kotick is hiring to promote a more respectful and inclusive workplace is also the same law firm that Amazon hires to keep its employees from unionizing.
How extremely coincidental that in this time of employees potentially unionizing they're hiring a law firm with strong union-busting work. Yes, certainly a coincidence, I'm sure this law firm was chosen exclusively for it's ability to make Blizzard more inclusive and respectful, definitely nothing to do seeing the sparks of unionization on their doorstep.
In a public statement addressed to employees earlier this week, Activision Blizzard CEO Bobby Kotick said the company was reviewing policies and procedures to help promote a more respectful and inclusive workplace. To help accomplish that, the company has retained the services of prestigious law firm WilmerHale, which is the same law firm helping Amazon keep its workers from unionizing. Considering ongoing efforts to unionize game workers, the partnership is a little concerning.
One of the saddest parts of all of this is that instead of cutting out the cancer, upper management is doubling and tripling down so hard that they're destroying the whole company. The only motivation i can think of which makes any kind of sense are gambling for financial gain at the expense of their employees and the greater gaming community. Are any of them at risk of jail time from this kind of lawsuit?
personally i've blown up many situations in my life to my great personal detriment because of things that i viewed as intolerable. i dont understand living otherwise. why protect a life that's not even worth living? all the people who knew about this culture and did nothing prior to that poor woman killing herself ought to feel a great shame and responsibility
I am exactly the same on that front, but there are few like us. The overwhelming majority of people seem content to stay quiet and stick to their own little corner, at least until things get so bad that they come out in an explosion like this.
we know a lot of those people participating in the walkout were themselves perpetrators of inappropriate behavior
Some people are playing victim on the same twitter accounts that they used to denigrate people on the back of race, gender, disabilities etc - even while those tweets are still up. There are always a lot of hypocrites around.
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
On July 30 2021 06:40 NonY wrote: nevermind that if people didnt tolerate it at all, then this would've blown up over a decade ago and all the victims between now and then wouldn't have been victims
But also let me point this out for the victim-blaming crap that it is. Without being in the company, you have no idea what it's like, and then when you finally land your dream job at Blizzard you find they have a vile company culture that comes straight from the top. There are people who didn't tolerate it, they got fired and their stories were silenced. It was a top-down culture of exploiting and suppressing people at will. Leadership at Blizzard fostered a culture from the start that was toxic as hell, so all the people who would've stood against it got pushed out before they became a significant portion of their workforce. They selected for what they wanted and against what they didn't, which is effective leadership in a nutshell. It was just also despicable. Don't fucking blame the people who had to put up with it. They did nothing wrong. Go for the people who use their power and privilege to shit on the lives of other people.
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
The reason for the suicide and nude pictures being spread is of course a big no and should be punished.
But the rest, pfff. This whole PC, cancel culture, lgthbiqxyz. It is going too far.
Being hit on, derogatory comments and jokes. If that is the culture that a company chose for, it is their good right. If you don't fit into that culture then you shouldn't be there. It is like immigrants coming to a country and then saying: nehh i dont like this and that, you should change it!
And no, it does not mean I would want to work for such a company, but it is their own choice. Of course there is a line, like I said. Nudes should not be spread, no physical bullying etc etc. But more often than not I see that the line is moved to the front in such a way that is just ridiculous. You need to apologize if you make fun of some accent or imitate some other language or if you say 'get the camel drivers'. Words with black in them are banned (such as in Germany) and in the USA animals with 'offensive' names such as gypsy are getting renamed. And people who are biologically not women need to be called a she or they or whatever (well I refuse to, as a scientist I refuse to do pseudoscience or deny biology). So I would not work in a company where there are many people who go beyond the b in lgbtiqhxyz. These people who dont fit in the culture of blizzard should do the same.
On July 28 2021 21:56 Velr wrote: I doubt that infantilizing your daughter does any good either.
I also don't think Jimmy was talking about sexual harrasment per se. Some Jobs/Teams just suck, you can either deal with it and try to profit as much as possible or leave. This is obviously not including illegal behaviour, thats another ballgame and taking legal action (and still quitting) should be normal.
Reading many posts here in general I mainly find myself wondering how bad north american work enviroments seem to be. Not that "Boyzclubs" don't exist here but the level demonstrated by some here? I feel like thats unheard off.
It's nowhere near that bad. I feel like too many people talk like this is a 100% American thing that will magically go away if we become more European or mimic some other developed nation. The likes of Ubisoft say otherwise.
The reality is that outside 2008-2010, we've had a good run for most of the past 20 years. Unemployment was at record lows before the pandemic hit. Most of the victims I've read about had systems engineering, programming or some other valuable experience. In Southern California, finding a new job would be a piece of cake for these people. Let's not pretend that people who could easily earn $100k+ with RSUs at other companies are chained to Blizzard and in need of a safety net.
Nony is right that a lot of these protesting employees found it easy to look the other way because Blizzard was their dream job. Even some of the victims themselves tolerated it because it was their dream job. For the kind of people Blizzard employs with these kinds of skills, there are plenty of companies here with much better work environments with better pay. You just won't get to work on your favorite Blizzard games.
I work outside of the videogame industry and I've seen some of my coworkers take a pay cut and leave our cushier work environment for Blizzard. Some of them are female. They really, really wanted to work for Blizzard.
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
On July 30 2021 06:40 NonY wrote: nevermind that if people didnt tolerate it at all, then this would've blown up over a decade ago and all the victims between now and then wouldn't have been victims
But also let me point this out for the victim-blaming crap that it is. Without being in the company, you have no idea what it's like, and then when you finally land your dream job at Blizzard you find they have a vile company culture that comes straight from the top. There are people who didn't tolerate it, they got fired and their stories were silenced. It was a top-down culture of exploiting and suppressing people at will. Leadership at Blizzard fostered a culture from the start that was toxic as hell, so all the people who would've stood against it got pushed out before they became a significant portion of their workforce. They selected for what they wanted and against what they didn't, which is effective leadership in a nutshell. It was just also despicable. Don't fucking blame the people who had to put up with it. They did nothing wrong. Go for the people who use their power and privilege to shit on the lives of other people.[/QUOTE]
It is their company. They have the right to select who they want and select people who they want and who would fit in. They also have the right to push out the people that they don't want.
Yes, there are of course limits and yes there are extremes. But what we are seeing in today's society is that even quite innocent or minor stuff gets punished so hard. And that people are punished for something way more than they should. We are getting to a point where you are punished in society and in a job for not 'respecting' transgenders. Where if you do not use the pronoun or honorific that they want to hear, you will be fired. Again if this is the culture of the company, it is their right. but nowadays companies are forced due to media backlash or because they are being forcefully changed from within.
But also let me point this out for the victim-blaming crap that it is. Without being in the company, you have no idea what it's like, and then when you finally land your dream job at Blizzard you find they have a vile company culture that comes straight from the top. There are people who didn't tolerate it, they got fired and their stories were silenced. It was a top-down culture of exploiting and suppressing people at will. Leadership at Blizzard fostered a culture from the start that was toxic as hell, so all the people who would've stood against it got pushed out before they became a significant portion of their workforce. They selected for what they wanted and against what they didn't, which is effective leadership in a nutshell. It was just also despicable. Don't fucking blame the people who had to put up with it. They did nothing wrong. Go for the people who use their power and privilege to shit on the lives of other people.
It is their company. They have the right to select who they want and select people who they want and who would fit in. They also have the right to push out the people that they don't want.
Yes, there are of course limits and yes there are extremes. But what we are seeing in today's society is that even quite innocent or minor stuff gets punished so hard. And that people are punished for something way more than they should. We are getting to a point where you are punished in society and in a job for not 'respecting' transgenders. Where if you do not use the pronoun or honorific that they want to hear, you will be fired. Again if this is the culture of the company, it is their right. but nowadays companies are forced due to media backlash or because they are being forcefully changed from within.
On July 30 2021 06:40 NonY wrote: nevermind that if people didnt tolerate it at all, then this would've blown up over a decade ago and all the victims between now and then wouldn't have been victims
But also let me point this out for the victim-blaming crap that it is. Without being in the company, you have no idea what it's like, and then when you finally land your dream job at Blizzard you find they have a vile company culture that comes straight from the top. There are people who didn't tolerate it, they got fired and their stories were silenced. It was a top-down culture of exploiting and suppressing people at will. Leadership at Blizzard fostered a culture from the start that was toxic as hell, so all the people who would've stood against it got pushed out before they became a significant portion of their workforce. They selected for what they wanted and against what they didn't, which is effective leadership in a nutshell. It was just also despicable. Don't fucking blame the people who had to put up with it. They did nothing wrong. Go for the people who use their power and privilege to shit on the lives of other people.
It is their company. They have the right to select who they want and select people who they want and who would fit in. They also have the right to push out the people that they don't want.
Yes, there are of course limits and yes there are extremes. But what we are seeing in today's society is that even quite innocent or minor stuff gets punished so hard. And that people are punished for something way more than they should. We are getting to a point where you are punished in society and in a job for not 'respecting' transgenders. Where if you do not use the pronoun or honorific that they want to hear, you will be fired. Again if this is the culture of the company, it is their right. but nowadays companies are forced due to media backlash or because they are being forcefully changed from within.
They have the right to do what they want as a company, you're right. But the people who work there who find that unacceptable, and the people at large, have the right to call it out when they feel it's unacceptable. There isn't some nefarious agenda or "cancel culture" BS going on, it's just people finding out about horrific behavior by powerful people at Blizzard and finding it unacceptable. It's really not complicated. Not all workplace cultures are equal, and maybe the backlash is deserved.
And if they care at all about their image or whether people continue to support them, they do something about it instead of offering horrible non-apologies and refuse to even respect the victims and their stories on a basic level. If they can't do better than that they deserve every ounce of shit they catch and then some. People have every right to decide whether a company is shitty, just as a company has every right to be shitty.
On July 30 2021 08:18 Pascal1p wrote: But also let me point this out for the victim-blaming crap that it is. Without being in the company, you have no idea what it's like, and then when you finally land your dream job at Blizzard you find they have a vile company culture that comes straight from the top. There are people who didn't tolerate it, they got fired and their stories were silenced. It was a top-down culture of exploiting and suppressing people at will. Leadership at Blizzard fostered a culture from the start that was toxic as hell, so all the people who would've stood against it got pushed out before they became a significant portion of their workforce. They selected for what they wanted and against what they didn't, which is effective leadership in a nutshell. It was just also despicable. Don't fucking blame the people who had to put up with it. They did nothing wrong. Go for the people who use their power and privilege to shit on the lives of other people.
It is their company. They have the right to select who they want and select people who they want and who would fit in. They also have the right to push out the people that they don't want.
Yes, there are of course limits and yes there are extremes. But what we are seeing in today's society is that even quite innocent or minor stuff gets punished so hard. And that people are punished for something way more than they should. We are getting to a point where you are punished in society and in a job for not 'respecting' transgenders. Where if you do not use the pronoun or honorific that they want to hear, you will be fired. Again if this is the culture of the company, it is their right. but nowadays companies are forced due to media backlash or because they are being forcefully changed from within.
But also let me point this out for the victim-blaming crap that it is. Without being in the company, you have no idea what it's like, and then when you finally land your dream job at Blizzard you find they have a vile company culture that comes straight from the top. There are people who didn't tolerate it, they got fired and their stories were silenced. It was a top-down culture of exploiting and suppressing people at will. Leadership at Blizzard fostered a culture from the start that was toxic as hell, so all the people who would've stood against it got pushed out before they became a significant portion of their workforce. They selected for what they wanted and against what they didn't, which is effective leadership in a nutshell. It was just also despicable. Don't fucking blame the people who had to put up with it. They did nothing wrong. Go for the people who use their power and privilege to shit on the lives of other people.
It is their company. They have the right to select who they want and select people who they want and who would fit in. They also have the right to push out the people that they don't want.
Yes, there are of course limits and yes there are extremes. But what we are seeing in today's society is that even quite innocent or minor stuff gets punished so hard. And that people are punished for something way more than they should. We are getting to a point where you are punished in society and in a job for not 'respecting' transgenders. Where if you do not use the pronoun or honorific that they want to hear, you will be fired. Again if this is the culture of the company, it is their right. but nowadays companies are forced due to media backlash or because they are being forcefully changed from within.
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live?
I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
I understand and agree with a lot of what your saying. I am trying to remain positive about this though and hope this is not only a turning point for victims, but for those who chose to do or say nothing while it was happening. 100% agree f those people for not being proactive at a time when they were needed, but we can’t spend all day being angry at cowards. We have to just hope that this is the spark that raises awareness and courage for those who lacked it in the past. The solidarity by others like TL.net is saying we see what happened and want you to know that we have your back when you make good and brave decisions on the behalf of others and yourself.
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live?
I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this.
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live?
I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this.
Yeah, a lot of these problems are solved by having a union, and Blizzard employees are kind of on that precipice, but ActiBlizz is already on the way with their union busting lawfirm to make sure that they make some cursory changes to maybe help prevent some sexual harassment sometimes, and to make sure that any unionization ideas are thorough quelched. I can guess which one they're really worried about up top.
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live?
I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
the worst that can happen is your life ends shorter than you were hoping for. do what you want with your life. if you want to get paid for keeping quiet about bad behavior, then do it. im just not supporting it and im astonished at how much support it receives
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
I understand and agree with a lot of what your saying. I am trying to remain positive about this though and hope this is not only a turning point for victims, but for those who chose to do or say nothing while it was happening. 100% agree f those people for not being proactive at a time when they were needed, but we can’t spend all day being angry at cowards. We have to just hope that this is the spark that raises awareness and courage for those who lacked it in the past. The solidarity by others like TL.net is saying we see what happened and want you to know that we have your back when you make good and brave decisions on the behalf of others and yourself.
true. it just seems weird to me in a situation. if a young man in a gang quits the gang and is trying to turn his life around, i'd be supportive of him. this situation strikes me as different though. i dont want to be manipulated into picking a side between the leadership and the employees when there are scumbags on both sides. if leadership would've just responded differently, this would've been so much simpler, but apparently they thought that denial was the best route to take to protect the company, which is their responsibility, and im in no position to judge that decision (though the response they drafted was obviously awful). so the employees instead take it upon themselves to respond in the way we'd want them to, but now it's not so simple to just throw support behind them
i wish them the best of luck at improving the situation just for the sake of minimizing the number of future victims. but the values of the company as a game developer no longer match what i want from a game developer so i'd be just as happy with this being the beginning of the end of this company and talent continuing to leak out to join other studios
Leadership cultivates an environment, employees propagate it. If someone from Blizzard went to my workplace (precovid/WFH) and tried to pull off some of the shit they've done there, it would be immediately shot down as an unacceptable idea. The culture starts at the top, if there is no change in leadership, there is no change in the employees.
You've got to realize a lot of people are fresh out of college, or early in their career. If you let them continue a college frathouse, or have an environment where people can work in a frathouse, they will do that instead of having a "professional" environment.
Similarly, you've probably heard the role of HR is to protect the company. HR was probably neutered to simply a hiring role, if something like this could happen without repercussions.
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live?
I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
the worst that can happen is your life ends shorter than you were hoping for. do what you want with your life. if you want to get paid for keeping quiet about bad behavior, then do it. im just not supporting it and im astonished at how much support it receives
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
I understand and agree with a lot of what your saying. I am trying to remain positive about this though and hope this is not only a turning point for victims, but for those who chose to do or say nothing while it was happening. 100% agree f those people for not being proactive at a time when they were needed, but we can’t spend all day being angry at cowards. We have to just hope that this is the spark that raises awareness and courage for those who lacked it in the past. The solidarity by others like TL.net is saying we see what happened and want you to know that we have your back when you make good and brave decisions on the behalf of others and yourself.
true. it just seems weird to me in a situation. if a young man in a gang quits the gang and is trying to turn his life around, i'd be supportive of him. this situation strikes me as different though. i dont want to be manipulated into picking a side between the leadership and the employees when there are scumbags on both sides. if leadership would've just responded differently, this would've been so much simpler, but apparently they thought that denial was the best route to take to protect the company, which is their responsibility, and im in no position to judge that decision (though the response they drafted was obviously awful). so the employees instead take it upon themselves to respond in the way we'd want them to, but now it's not so simple to just throw support behind them
i wish them the best of luck at improving the situation just for the sake of minimizing the number of future victims. but the values of the company as a game developer no longer match what i want from a game developer so i'd be just as happy with this being the beginning of the end of this company and talent continuing to leak out to join other studios
If I'm to take your logic to an extreme, employees should protest sexual harassment that they know of by slitting their own throats on the doorstep of the studio, after all, if they cared they'd willingly give up their lives, because its only ending your live before maybe you thought it would.
The underlying threads of logic I'm reading into some of these posts are really nihilistic, even for me
On July 30 2021 10:16 Lmui wrote: Leadership cultivates an environment, employees propagate it. If someone from Blizzard went to my workplace (precovid/WFH) and tried to pull off some of the shit they've done there, it would be immediately shot down as an unacceptable idea. The culture starts at the top, if there is no change in leadership, there is no change in the employees.
You've got to realize a lot of people are fresh out of college, or early in their career. If you let them continue a college frathouse, or have an environment where people can work in a frathouse, they will do that instead of having a "professional" environment.
Similarly, you've probably heard the role of HR is to protect the company. HR was probably neutered to simply a hiring role, if something like this could happen without repercussions.
Even worse, in the leaked picture of the people involved with the Cosby Suite, there are literally HR people there. HR wasn't minimized, HR was in on it/actively did nothing.
One ex-Blizzard source familiar with the people presented in the pictures identified an HR representative as one of the Blizzard employees present in the hotel room.
But also let me point this out for the victim-blaming crap that it is. Without being in the company, you have no idea what it's like, and then when you finally land your dream job at Blizzard you find they have a vile company culture that comes straight from the top. There are people who didn't tolerate it, they got fired and their stories were silenced. It was a top-down culture of exploiting and suppressing people at will. Leadership at Blizzard fostered a culture from the start that was toxic as hell, so all the people who would've stood against it got pushed out before they became a significant portion of their workforce. They selected for what they wanted and against what they didn't, which is effective leadership in a nutshell. It was just also despicable. Don't fucking blame the people who had to put up with it. They did nothing wrong. Go for the people who use their power and privilege to shit on the lives of other people.
It is their company. They have the right to select who they want and select people who they want and who would fit in. They also have the right to push out the people that they don't want.
Yes, there are of course limits and yes there are extremes. But what we are seeing in today's society is that even quite innocent or minor stuff gets punished so hard. And that people are punished for something way more than they should. We are getting to a point where you are punished in society and in a job for not 'respecting' transgenders. Where if you do not use the pronoun or honorific that they want to hear, you will be fired. Again if this is the culture of the company, it is their right. but nowadays companies are forced due to media backlash or because they are being forcefully changed from within.
Actually once they decided to go public and take shareholder's money it is no longer just their company. They have obligations to shareholders, both monetarily and if the majority of the shareholders wish morally and ethically as well. If they want to do what they want then they should take the company back to private.
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live?
I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
the worst that can happen is your life ends shorter than you were hoping for. do what you want with your life. if you want to get paid for keeping quiet about bad behavior, then do it. im just not supporting it and im astonished at how much support it receives
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
I understand and agree with a lot of what your saying. I am trying to remain positive about this though and hope this is not only a turning point for victims, but for those who chose to do or say nothing while it was happening. 100% agree f those people for not being proactive at a time when they were needed, but we can’t spend all day being angry at cowards. We have to just hope that this is the spark that raises awareness and courage for those who lacked it in the past. The solidarity by others like TL.net is saying we see what happened and want you to know that we have your back when you make good and brave decisions on the behalf of others and yourself.
true. it just seems weird to me in a situation. if a young man in a gang quits the gang and is trying to turn his life around, i'd be supportive of him. this situation strikes me as different though. i dont want to be manipulated into picking a side between the leadership and the employees when there are scumbags on both sides. if leadership would've just responded differently, this would've been so much simpler, but apparently they thought that denial was the best route to take to protect the company, which is their responsibility, and im in no position to judge that decision (though the response they drafted was obviously awful). so the employees instead take it upon themselves to respond in the way we'd want them to, but now it's not so simple to just throw support behind them
i wish them the best of luck at improving the situation just for the sake of minimizing the number of future victims. but the values of the company as a game developer no longer match what i want from a game developer so i'd be just as happy with this being the beginning of the end of this company and talent continuing to leak out to join other studios
Part of achieving change with things like these is exactly what these employees did yesterday. There are other, better options, than simply quitting your job if you care about more than just your own outcomes. After all, a person quitting their job at a company that mistreats women does nothing to help those women, the company is free to mistreat them afterwards. And worse, it tends to move the culture even further in the direction.
As far as the walkout "not being risky", it's easy to find counterexamples to that in very recent history. Organizers behind the women's walkout at Google a few years back were almost universally retaliated against by the company, pushed out of their jobs, their career progress completely sidelined. They become seen as "problem employees", unhireable at most companies. Several of them have since won successful judgements through the NLRB about this, but only after years of legal battles, lawyer costs, etc. Had the turnout for that action not been so large and had so many eyes on it, the consequences likely would have been far worse, and you never know until you *do* the action how many people are actually going to turn up and support you. Companies hire firms that are very experienced to try and shut this type of organizing down, to subvert it, to break down any of the people involved and make them leave. In the US we're at least past the days where companies literally shot these people in the streets (Yes, I am serious, that is a thing that used to occur with regularity, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_strike ), but these sorts of things are certainly not without risk.
The Google women's walkout demonstrated that these sorts of actions can achieve concessions from the company in tech spaces, and thus it's often a tactic that workers at other companies have reached for as of late. Supporting such things doesn't require you to support anyone within it at an individual level, nor does it require every person within the movement to be a perfect individual. Even if there "are bad people on both sides", as you say, it's sort of hard to see how supporting the demands would be bad? Is ending mandatory arbitration in employment contracts bad just because someone who didn't take action earlier about sexual harassment also supports it? Is wanting outside investigation of harassment claims with a party chosen by employees bad because of that reason? Very hard to see how one could take that stance.
You talk about how you "try to change things, and if it fails, leave," well, this walkout is people trying to change things. Why do you not support that now, then? I know that the US education system really fails to tell people how change was won in the past 2 centuries (because it failed me too, and I only learned of these things in my adult life), but there's a vast history of labor movements that goes completely untold. People come away learning this falsity that the only options they have are *personal* ones: you can shut up and take the paycheck, or you can leave, there is nothing else. Well, there are other options. They've been used extensively, they are the only reason we even have the concept of a 40 hour workweek, of a weekend. If people only took individual action, nothing would have ever changed and we would be even more disempowered as workers than we already are.
I'd encourage you to check out some basic reading on this subject, as it might change your viewpoint. A good starting point is probably From The Folks Who Brought You The Weekend.
On July 30 2021 10:16 Lmui wrote: Leadership cultivates an environment, employees propagate it. If someone from Blizzard went to my workplace (precovid/WFH) and tried to pull off some of the shit they've done there, it would be immediately shot down as an unacceptable idea. The culture starts at the top, if there is no change in leadership, there is no change in the employees.
You've got to realize a lot of people are fresh out of college, or early in their career. If you let them continue a college frathouse, or have an environment where people can work in a frathouse, they will do that instead of having a "professional" environment.
Similarly, you've probably heard the role of HR is to protect the company. HR was probably neutered to simply a hiring role, if something like this could happen without repercussions.
And HR should be just for that. HR should never have any other roles or powers.
Lets be honest the better you are, the worse stunts you can pull. And i mean actual competency, not those fakers who work their way up with network/nepotism/fraud/lies etc. It is the geniuses that shaped our society and made sure we got out of the dark ages.
If I have a nobel prize winner in physics working for me and he is saying derogatory things about women, you bet you I am going to keep him. You betya that I will fire the women who cant work with him.
But also let me point this out for the victim-blaming crap that it is. Without being in the company, you have no idea what it's like, and then when you finally land your dream job at Blizzard you find they have a vile company culture that comes straight from the top. There are people who didn't tolerate it, they got fired and their stories were silenced. It was a top-down culture of exploiting and suppressing people at will. Leadership at Blizzard fostered a culture from the start that was toxic as hell, so all the people who would've stood against it got pushed out before they became a significant portion of their workforce. They selected for what they wanted and against what they didn't, which is effective leadership in a nutshell. It was just also despicable. Don't fucking blame the people who had to put up with it. They did nothing wrong. Go for the people who use their power and privilege to shit on the lives of other people.
It is their company. They have the right to select who they want and select people who they want and who would fit in. They also have the right to push out the people that they don't want.
Yes, there are of course limits and yes there are extremes. But what we are seeing in today's society is that even quite innocent or minor stuff gets punished so hard. And that people are punished for something way more than they should. We are getting to a point where you are punished in society and in a job for not 'respecting' transgenders. Where if you do not use the pronoun or honorific that they want to hear, you will be fired. Again if this is the culture of the company, it is their right. but nowadays companies are forced due to media backlash or because they are being forcefully changed from within.
Actually once they decided to go public and take shareholder's money it is no longer just their company. They have obligations to shareholders, both monetarily and if the majority of the shareholders wish morally and ethically as well. If they want to do what they want then they should take the company back to private.
Only if they do not hold majority shares. And even then the whole stock business is a joke. The company gets 1 injection of money but many of those who injected the money dont even hold the shares anymore, they sold it. And none of those transactions or even stocks going up or down effect the real business of a company. Theoretically a company could go down to 0 on the stock markets and still make billions each day.
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live?
I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
the worst that can happen is your life ends shorter than you were hoping for. do what you want with your life. if you want to get paid for keeping quiet about bad behavior, then do it. im just not supporting it and im astonished at how much support it receives
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
I understand and agree with a lot of what your saying. I am trying to remain positive about this though and hope this is not only a turning point for victims, but for those who chose to do or say nothing while it was happening. 100% agree f those people for not being proactive at a time when they were needed, but we can’t spend all day being angry at cowards. We have to just hope that this is the spark that raises awareness and courage for those who lacked it in the past. The solidarity by others like TL.net is saying we see what happened and want you to know that we have your back when you make good and brave decisions on the behalf of others and yourself.
true. it just seems weird to me in a situation. if a young man in a gang quits the gang and is trying to turn his life around, i'd be supportive of him. this situation strikes me as different though. i dont want to be manipulated into picking a side between the leadership and the employees when there are scumbags on both sides. if leadership would've just responded differently, this would've been so much simpler, but apparently they thought that denial was the best route to take to protect the company, which is their responsibility, and im in no position to judge that decision (though the response they drafted was obviously awful). so the employees instead take it upon themselves to respond in the way we'd want them to, but now it's not so simple to just throw support behind them
i wish them the best of luck at improving the situation just for the sake of minimizing the number of future victims. but the values of the company as a game developer no longer match what i want from a game developer so i'd be just as happy with this being the beginning of the end of this company and talent continuing to leak out to join other studios
If I'm to take your logic to an extreme, employees should protest sexual harassment that they know of by slitting their own throats on the doorstep of the studio, after all, if they cared they'd willingly give up their lives, because its only ending your live before maybe you thought it would.
The underlying threads of logic I'm reading into some of these posts are really nihilistic, even for me
On July 30 2021 10:16 Lmui wrote: Leadership cultivates an environment, employees propagate it. If someone from Blizzard went to my workplace (precovid/WFH) and tried to pull off some of the shit they've done there, it would be immediately shot down as an unacceptable idea. The culture starts at the top, if there is no change in leadership, there is no change in the employees.
You've got to realize a lot of people are fresh out of college, or early in their career. If you let them continue a college frathouse, or have an environment where people can work in a frathouse, they will do that instead of having a "professional" environment.
Similarly, you've probably heard the role of HR is to protect the company. HR was probably neutered to simply a hiring role, if something like this could happen without repercussions.
Even worse, in the leaked picture of the people involved with the Cosby Suite, there are literally HR people there. HR wasn't minimized, HR was in on it/actively did nothing.
One ex-Blizzard source familiar with the people presented in the pictures identified an HR representative as one of the Blizzard employees present in the hotel room.
Again this is the sort of stuff that does not matter at all. Who the fuck cares they made a bill cosby suite? It is a joke. Not the sort of joke I like. but it is still a joke and even if they meant it serious. Then still who the fuck cares. It does not harm anyone
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live?
I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
the worst that can happen is your life ends shorter than you were hoping for. do what you want with your life. if you want to get paid for keeping quiet about bad behavior, then do it. im just not supporting it and im astonished at how much support it receives
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
I understand and agree with a lot of what your saying. I am trying to remain positive about this though and hope this is not only a turning point for victims, but for those who chose to do or say nothing while it was happening. 100% agree f those people for not being proactive at a time when they were needed, but we can’t spend all day being angry at cowards. We have to just hope that this is the spark that raises awareness and courage for those who lacked it in the past. The solidarity by others like TL.net is saying we see what happened and want you to know that we have your back when you make good and brave decisions on the behalf of others and yourself.
true. it just seems weird to me in a situation. if a young man in a gang quits the gang and is trying to turn his life around, i'd be supportive of him. this situation strikes me as different though. i dont want to be manipulated into picking a side between the leadership and the employees when there are scumbags on both sides. if leadership would've just responded differently, this would've been so much simpler, but apparently they thought that denial was the best route to take to protect the company, which is their responsibility, and im in no position to judge that decision (though the response they drafted was obviously awful). so the employees instead take it upon themselves to respond in the way we'd want them to, but now it's not so simple to just throw support behind them
i wish them the best of luck at improving the situation just for the sake of minimizing the number of future victims. but the values of the company as a game developer no longer match what i want from a game developer so i'd be just as happy with this being the beginning of the end of this company and talent continuing to leak out to join other studios
If I'm to take your logic to an extreme, employees should protest sexual harassment that they know of by slitting their own throats on the doorstep of the studio, after all, if they cared they'd willingly give up their lives, because its only ending your live before maybe you thought it would.
The underlying threads of logic I'm reading into some of these posts are really nihilistic, even for me
On July 30 2021 10:16 Lmui wrote: Leadership cultivates an environment, employees propagate it. If someone from Blizzard went to my workplace (precovid/WFH) and tried to pull off some of the shit they've done there, it would be immediately shot down as an unacceptable idea. The culture starts at the top, if there is no change in leadership, there is no change in the employees.
You've got to realize a lot of people are fresh out of college, or early in their career. If you let them continue a college frathouse, or have an environment where people can work in a frathouse, they will do that instead of having a "professional" environment.
Similarly, you've probably heard the role of HR is to protect the company. HR was probably neutered to simply a hiring role, if something like this could happen without repercussions.
Even worse, in the leaked picture of the people involved with the Cosby Suite, there are literally HR people there. HR wasn't minimized, HR was in on it/actively did nothing.
One ex-Blizzard source familiar with the people presented in the pictures identified an HR representative as one of the Blizzard employees present in the hotel room.
Again this is the sort of stuff that does not matter at all. Who the fuck cares they made a bill cosby suite? It is a joke. Not the sort of joke I like. but it is still a joke and even if they meant it serious. Then still who the fuck cares. It does not harm anyone
Are you feigning ignorance as to what they did in that room(thus why they call it the Cosby Suite), or are you only looking as far as "Bill Cosby jokes are in poor taste but not illegal" when you decide it doesn't harm anyone?
I'm also interested in how you think you get to decide what is and isn't upsetting to other people, but I'll stick with the questions above for now.
On July 30 2021 10:47 Pascal1p wrote:
If... he is saying derogatory things about women, you bet you I am going to keep him. You betya that I will fire the women who cant work with him.
Actually, never mind. You've made yourself quite clear.
The part about the pics/suicide was both sad and infuriating to read, were these events confirmed to have happened on Blizz's watch?
Letting stuff like this go on in the company without instantly confronting it head on is a massive failure on managements part, leadership should have stepped in right away. And in the likelihood that they didn't know about any of this (which i honestly find hard to believe).. that's also a failure on managements part for not knowing enough about the inner workings of their company.
Regardless, what this tells me is there was a major lack of character/integrity within the leadership roles.
On July 30 2021 11:59 TT1 wrote: The part about the pics/suicide was both sad and infuriating to read, were these events confirmed to have happened on Blizz's watch?
Letting stuff like this go on in the company without instantly confronting it head on is a massive failure on managements part, leadership should have stepped in right away. And in the likelihood that they didn't know about any of this (which i honestly find hard to believe).. that's also a failure on managements part for not knowing enough about the inner workings of their company.
Regardless, what this tells me is there was a major lack of character in the leadership roles.
I believe the suicide wasn't specifically Blizzard, but Activision publishing. Blizzard's sexual harassment issues are confirmed to have been known about by senior Blizzard staff like J Allen Brack.
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live?
I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this.
THen MAYBE, just MAYBE, you may want to change how the US operates. Just a suggestion. In the end you have the freedom and democracy and shit.
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live?
I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this.
THen MAYBE, just MAYBE, you may want to change how the US operates. Just a suggestion. In the end you have the freedom and democracy and shit.
You're placing a lot of faith in one TLs user's ability to change the entirety of how his country operates
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live?
I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this.
THen MAYBE, just MAYBE, you may want to change how the US operates. Just a suggestion. In the end you have the freedom and democracy and shit.
Your placing a lot of faith in one TLs user's ability to change the entirety of how his country operates
Easy mistake to make, it is NewSunshine after all!
On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote: The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net.
that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live?
I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this.
THen MAYBE, just MAYBE, you may want to change how the US operates. Just a suggestion. In the end you have the freedom and democracy and shit.
You're placing a lot of faith in one TLs user's ability to change the entirety of how his country operates
Well if everybody else in the US is happy with the state, then all he has to do is to move to the Europe. That is if we want to play the stupid game of me addressing this one user and not using the plural...
On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote: [quote] that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live?
I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this.
THen MAYBE, just MAYBE, you may want to change how the US operates. Just a suggestion. In the end you have the freedom and democracy and shit.
Your placing a lot of faith in one TLs user's ability to change the entirety of how his country operates
Easy mistake to make, it is NewSunshine after all!
I think NewSunshine can get it done tbh. All it takes is hard work. No excuse.
On July 30 2021 11:59 TT1 wrote: The part about the pics/suicide was both sad and infuriating to read, were these events confirmed to have happened on Blizz's watch?
Letting stuff like this go on in the company without instantly confronting it head on is a massive failure on managements part, leadership should have stepped in right away. And in the likelihood that they didn't know about any of this (which i honestly find hard to believe).. that's also a failure on managements part for not knowing enough about the inner workings of their company.
Regardless, what this tells me is there was a major lack of character/integrity within the leadership roles.
We need to stop assuming there's a systematic failure in management when this is just the culture. Reports keep highlighting whole laundry lists of video game developers where people are speaking out more and more often about awful work conditions/crunch and rife sexual/power harassment they face on the daily. It isn't a failure of management, management is creating the environment they want.
If Riot hires a former Blizzard artist (iirc) with a history of being a sex pest, what does that say about Riot? It is a failure of management or did they just absolutely not care that this guy was a sex pest and didn't see it as a major problem in terms of morale and company culture? Riot is the same company whose CEO was engaged in sexual misconduct/coercion and as a company keeps popping up in the news for gender discrimination and having a frathouse type environment. This is who Riot are as a company, believe them when they tell you who they are.
There was a Blizzcon panel from 2010 where a female fan asked Blizzard staff panel (which included Brack) if they planned to design some female characters that didn't look straight out of a Victoria's Secret catalog. Which is a fair question, Blizzard characters at the time were full on with the high heels and bikini armor. Kerrigan's SC2 design is straight trash: stiletto heels, a bone corset and full on emphasis on tits. Same deal with Sylvanas' design at the same period of time.
And looking at the current reports of sexual abuse and sheer emotional immaturity being rife within Blizzard, the panel responded to her in possibly the worst way possible. They laughed at her, asked her which catalog they preferred her characters to come from, and started cracking jokes about "which catalogs their female characters come from". This is Blizzard's upper management making these comments in 2010.
They fostered this type of environment on purpose, there was no mistake or failure of management. The most charitable thing you might be able to say is that everyone turned a blind eye to everything...which is hard to believe when Blizzard staff created a fucking Cosby (yes of the Bill Cosby fame) Suite to engage in sexual coercion of interns and the like. That's the type of shit I'm willing to risk losing my job over to report to the fucking police/media. In hindsight, the way the panel approached her question tells me everything about the people they are.
On July 30 2021 10:43 tec27 wrote: As far as the walkout "not being risky", it's easy to find counterexamples to that in very recent history. Organizers behind the women's walkout at Google a few years back were almost universally retaliated against by the company, pushed out of their jobs, their career progress completely sidelined. They become seen as "problem employees", unhireable at most companies. Several of them have since won successful judgements through the NLRB about this, but only after years of legal battles, lawyer costs, etc. Had the turnout for that action not been so large and had so many eyes on it, the consequences likely would have been far worse, and you never know until you *do* the action how many people are actually going to turn up and support you. Companies hire firms that are very experienced to try and shut this type of organizing down, to subvert it, to break down any of the people involved and make them leave. In the US we're at least past the days where companies literally shot these people in the streets (Yes, I am serious, that is a thing that used to occur with regularity, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_strike ), but these sorts of things are certainly not without risk.
I think each situation is unique and my understanding of this one is that the amount of risk involved in someone taking a stand five years ago is infinitely more than employee #1298 signing the statement and standing outside for a day. If it turns out all these employees end up suffering for this, then I'll be corrected. I think it's more likely a situation where any employee who refused to sign is going to be looked down upon by their colleagues.
On July 30 2021 10:43 tec27 wrote: You talk about how you "try to change things, and if it fails, leave," well, this walkout is people trying to change things. Why do you not support that now, then?
I'm not involved. I don't know who is guilty or who is not. I don't know whose heart is in the right place. People can speak platitudes and manipulate opinions. These employees have done nothing to win my trust. We should be distrustful of all of them. When they accomplish something, I'll be happy for them. When they do something that would actually involve me beyond "hey random person, trust me I'm a good guy trying to do the right thing right now, can you just say you support me so I can win this power struggle against these other people who you also don't know and are saying they're trying to do the right thing?" then I'd consider it.
When I look at these employees I see a bunch of people who have been tolerating awful behavior for years or decades. That's not the kind of people I trust or respect. When they make one statement that they're trying to be better now, it's common sense to be extremely skeptical of it. And then people say "well they're good people who are unwilling to sacrifice their careers and financial security to do the right thing" as if that's going to make me respect them more. Like I should respect the guards at Auschwitz because they were put in a tough spot.
The only people I somewhat trust to do the right thing, and who I know actually are working on something tangible, are DFEH. And I'm paying taxes in California, which is more tangible support than all these gestures people are making online.
If people only took individual action, nothing would have ever changed and we would be even more disempowered as workers than we already are.
I don't understand this at all. If everyone had my attitude, then progress would be faster. You say that these group movements are historically how progress has been made and I think the fact that it only ever happens that way is why progress has been so slow.
In a different culture where every individual rejects something that's unacceptable, the business has to adapt. Businesses which have expanded internationally have encountered this, having to learn that the way they run their business in one country won't work in another.
But what I understand of the people at Blizzard is that it's made up of the meek, selfish people who allow a lot more suffering to happen than is necessary while they wait for a shifting of the winds and safety in numbers to participate in change.
I don't think it's kind or acceptable to make that kind of statement about everyone at Blizzard. You might think less of them because you'd do more if you were in their situation. Good for you. I couldn't care less about that. But while acknowledging how little you know about all the people involved and exactly what the situation is like, you're still happy to paint them all with the same judgmental brush. That sucks, dude.
Not everyone is the same as you, and you need to get over that. You're not cool for saying you would do so much more than everyone there. Get the job, then become a woman or POC, get harassed and denied opportunities, then tell me how you'd handle it.
On July 31 2021 00:32 NewSunshine wrote: I don't think it's kind or acceptable to make that kind of statement about everyone at Blizzard. You might think less of them because you'd do more if you were in their situation. Good for you. I couldn't care less about that. But while acknowledging how little you know about all the people involved and exactly what the situation is like, you're still happy to paint them all with the same judgmental brush. That sucks, dude.
Not everyone is the same as you, and you need to get over that. You're not cool for saying you would do so much more than everyone there. Get the job, then become a woman or POC, get harassed and denied opportunities, then tell me how you'd handle it.
Exactly. The world has never been that simple, and saying you'd do something in that situation doesn't mean shit because you aren't in that situation. Claiming you'd do this that and the other is hollow because talk is cheap. You didn't work there. You didn't experience this firsthand. You didn't live with the pressures and fears these people did. Until you actually go work somewhere and expose the shitty underbelly of a powerful corporation that's capable of blacklisting you from an entire industry and possibly ruining your life forever, what you say you'd do in that situation doesn't mean anything.
On July 31 2021 00:57 StasisField wrote: You didn't live with the pressures and fears these people did. Until you actually go work somewhere and expose the shitty underbelly of a powerful corporation that's capable of blacklisting you from an entire industry and possibly ruining your life forever, what you say you'd do in that situation doesn't mean anything.
Before you start your career you research and plan. Create a career that can avoid and/or withstand one corporation screwing you over. This method applies for both the real victims and the falsely accused.
If one plans to work for the best there is ... one must know going in it is not for the faint of heart. I went to the best tech school in Canada. For many that means a maximum of 10 days off per year . Moving 10+ times in 4 years in 4+ cities. Someone in my school committed suicide during my time there. meh, it happens man. The program is brutal. I did my research and I knew this going in. For the first year it was very tough for me. However, the rewards were also there. You run the gauntlet and you get rewarded. People going in to work for Blizz and the gaming industry should do their research and realize the industry has been shadey for 4+ decades.
If you examine the tactics of Namco , Atari and Mattel from the 70s ... its clear these orgs would have zero problems covering up harassment on the job. Nolan Bushnell was fingered as a perpetrator and authored poor company culture featuriung hot tub parties and female employees in bikinis. Nothing has changed since then. Its up to those entering the video game industry to do their own research and realize the mine field they are entering.
On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote: [quote] that's the only option that's universal
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live?
I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this.
THen MAYBE, just MAYBE, you may want to change how the US operates. Just a suggestion. In the end you have the freedom and democracy and shit.
You're placing a lot of faith in one TLs user's ability to change the entirety of how his country operates
Well if everybody else in the US is happy with the state, then all he has to do is to move to the Europe. That is if we want to play the stupid game of me addressing this one user and not using the plural...
I'm fine with people doing what they want with their lives. The question here is why I wouldn't volunteer my support for Blizzard employees and I'm explaining my perspective.
I can 100% predict how my tenure at Blizzard would've gone: I would've heard about or witnessed some shitty behavior, I would've intervened, and I would've told my superiors to fuck off if they didn't live up to my standards, and I would've gotten fired and told my story to the public. If everyone was like me, things would've changed sooner.
Even if someone was behaving exactly like I would, I still wouldn't give my support without knowing all the details. They could be deceitful.
Imo the correct reasonable response by an outsider is to let the DFEH do their jobs and stay out of it. No need to respect anyone any less until it's been proven they were guilty of some shit. All the slacktivism in response to this shit is misplaced.
I have a problem with people trying to accuse me of doing something wrong for not supporting them. I ought to be able to stay neutral in something I'm not involved in and don't understand. And it's absurd to think there should be some kind of suspension of judgment on their work because of all this.
On July 31 2021 00:32 NewSunshine wrote: I don't think it's kind or acceptable to make that kind of statement about everyone at Blizzard. You might think less of them because you'd do more if you were in their situation. Good for you. I couldn't care less about that. But while acknowledging how little you know about all the people involved and exactly what the situation is like, you're still happy to paint them all with the same judgmental brush. That sucks, dude.
Not everyone is the same as you, and you need to get over that. You're not cool for saying you would do so much more than everyone there. Get the job, then become a woman or POC, get harassed and denied opportunities, then tell me how you'd handle it.
You cant even follow the conversation. Just give up trying to understand my perspective. Blame it on my poor attempt at explaining it if you have too much pride to think I could possibly have something to say you don't already understand.
Nony, I think the issue is your attitude of “I’m willing to blow up my life in the face of injustice and if I die then whatever, I’d have died anyway”. Most people don’t live that way, that’s a very unusual attitude. Most people have priorities like providing for their family, even if their family will also die eventually anyway, and not dying themselves. While they might practically have the same power to blow everything up as you they place a higher value on the sacrifices that would be asked of them.
This may not make sense to you but it does to most people and that’s why there is sympathy to the victims. There is sympathy even though those victims tolerated their abuse due to a sense of powerlessness. They are viewed as powerless even though they had the ability to suicide bomb Blizzard HQ. There are many forms of powerlessness and some people can feel powerless, even if they have the power to make their situation worse.
On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote: [quote] The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious
Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live?
I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this.
THen MAYBE, just MAYBE, you may want to change how the US operates. Just a suggestion. In the end you have the freedom and democracy and shit.
You're placing a lot of faith in one TLs user's ability to change the entirety of how his country operates
Well if everybody else in the US is happy with the state, then all he has to do is to move to the Europe. That is if we want to play the stupid game of me addressing this one user and not using the plural...
All he has to do is move to Europe? That’s all?
Anyone engaging in absolutist "if you don't love 100% of America you can just leave" bullshit can GTFO. I decide what I want to do with my time, thanks.
When i read this forum, i wonder where all these “perfect people” who go on about what they would do if they were in this situation are hiding in real life.
I understand your perspective just fine, Nony. And I agree that if everyone were somehow as willing as you to throw everything away to fight any injustice, it would be a lot less likely to happen in the first place. I don't think that's a stretch to say. But you're tripping up on the "if everyone was like me" part of it. And honestly, if you could just snap your fingers and make everyone think the way you do, nothing would be an issue ever. Also Blizzard would've done it first. That that's what they tried to do is the entire problem.
Unfortunately, life isn't a game of Starcraft. People aren't willing to just attack into the enemy base unquestioningly until they die. They tend to like the lives they have, and don't want to make it worse for themselves unless they absolutely have to. It's not about whether your perspective is so revolutionary I just don't understand it, it's about whether you understand the fact that almost nobody is going to join you in your attitude. You can be absolutely right that if everyone acts the way you would there would be no issues, but it doesn't matter because it will never ever ever happen, ever.
On July 31 2021 01:47 KwarK wrote: Nony, I think the issue is your attitude of “I’m willing to blow up my life in the face of injustice and if I die then whatever, I’d have died anyway”. Most people don’t live that way, that’s a very unusual attitude. Most people have priorities like providing for their family, even if their family will also die eventually anyway, and not dying themselves. While they might practically have the same power to blow everything up as you they place a higher value on the sacrifices that would be asked of them.
This may not make sense to you but it does to most people and that’s why there is sympathy to the victims. There is sympathy even though those victims tolerated their abuse due to a sense of powerlessness. They are viewed as powerless even though they had the ability to suicide bomb Blizzard HQ. There are many forms of powerlessness and some people can feel powerless, even if they have the power to make their situation worse.
I am surprised by how much support they've garnered, but I'm not surprised that some people did flock to the cause. In this day and age, I'm not surprised by any cause gaining supporters. No matter how dumb or hateful the cause is, or how awful the people behind it are, there will be supporters.
What I don't understand is why people think I'm wrong for not supporting them. It is far from a black and white issue. A government agency is already taking legal action. And all that aside, the quality of their work and the direction their work both deserve criticism. To me, the obvious course of action is to continue to be critical of them until they actually show some results, since they already had all our support at one point and have only declined since then. Or just forget they exist, let them try to sort themselves out, let the legal action take its course, and give them a clean second chance at some point in the future. But how dare I be critical at a time like this when they just said they're trying to better themselves (and the opportunity to gain leverage over their leadership is just a coincidence, of course).
On July 31 2021 01:47 KwarK wrote: Nony, I think the issue is your attitude of “I’m willing to blow up my life in the face of injustice and if I die then whatever, I’d have died anyway”. Most people don’t live that way, that’s a very unusual attitude. Most people have priorities like providing for their family, even if their family will also die eventually anyway, and not dying themselves. While they might practically have the same power to blow everything up as you they place a higher value on the sacrifices that would be asked of them.
This may not make sense to you but it does to most people and that’s why there is sympathy to the victims. There is sympathy even though those victims tolerated their abuse due to a sense of powerlessness. They are viewed as powerless even though they had the ability to suicide bomb Blizzard HQ. There are many forms of powerlessness and some people can feel powerless, even if they have the power to make their situation worse.
I am surprised by how much support they've garnered, but I'm not surprised that some people did flock to the cause. In this day and age, I'm not surprised by any cause gaining supporters. No matter how dumb or hateful the cause is, or how awful the people behind it are, there will be supporters.
What I don't understand is why people think I'm wrong for not supporting them. It is far from a black and white issue. A government agency is already taking legal action. And all that aside, the quality of their work and the direction their work both deserve criticism. To me, the obvious course of action is to continue to be critical of them until they actually show some results, since they already had all our support at one point and have only declined since then. Or just forget they exist, let them try to sort themselves out, let the legal action take its course, and give them a clean second chance at some point in the future. But how dare I be critical at a time like this when they just said they're trying to better themselves (and the opportunity to gain leverage over their leadership is just a coincidence, of course).
In a micro or macro sense, this is how social changes work.
The ‘if I die, fuck it’ people lead the charge and eventually spurn on those in the ‘this is wrong but I’m not putting my ass in the line’ camp, and if there’s sufficient mass and a power shift then the ‘I was on the fence but now I’m not’ people swing over, and eventually the behaviour that was perceived as wrong is now policed by the same social and structural powers that enabled or actively encouraged it.
As someone alluded to earlier, the history of Labour movements in the States elsewhere is pretty choc-a-bloc with Union guys fished out of rivers. While a much more entrenched and heinous situation, not everyone is wired like a Rosa Parks is.
Perhaps for the best really, while it can be useful in forging a better social order, if absolutely everyone peaced out at impingements to their particular moral codes, it would be quite difficult to maintain consistently agreed and adhered fo moral frameworks that aid cohesion in various areas.
But yes it definitely does slow down the pace of needed change, in all sorts of areas and the phenomenon exists even in purely social environments with no real stakes. I assume it would still be a frequent occurrence in whatever utopias people conjure up, but it’s sure entrenched in systems that give people real power over others.
I do admire your attitude, and hell if more people shared it I might see some good old socialism in my lifetime! Equally that’s an outlying attitude and I can’t criticise people too harshly for merely being normal. Speaking of employees at Blizzard and what’s going on there now.
I do not particularly see the point in pressure via slacktivism though if the wider population want to jump on the train. It’s not a huge sacrifice to just ignore the company and their products, if you want to do something tangible there is an obvious something there. Notwithstanding people loving jumping on bandwagons before much of anything is known, which isn’t always helpful either.
On July 31 2021 02:19 404AlphaSquad wrote: When i read this forum, i wonder where all these “perfect people” who go on about what they would do if they were in this situation are hiding in real life.
Nothing is easier than arm chairing from a position of privilege. Yes, I too can sit here and go "If I found discrimination at my job I'd quit!" But you know what? I have money saved up and could get a new job practically tomorrow. It doesn't take a whole lot of empathy (even if you don't have sympathy) to realize that not everyone is as lucky, and isn't able to just up and leave from their dream job, with no security, no backup plan, families to take care of, and bills that needs to be paid.
I would easily consider ignoring injustice at my workplace if it meant I didn't have to live on the street, and that brings us to the biggest systematic issue in America: A complete lack of safety net. How does one expect employees to stand up for anything when you stand to completely fuck up your life in the process?
I'm sure that almost all the people reading this are cis dudes, so here's my thoughts as a trans woman on this coming to light: I work in cybersecurity so while not the same industry, there are many similarities between what I've experienced in my life and what is going on at Blizzard. Pre-transition, whenever I would go to security conferences, the talks and presentations would be professional and courteous. Everything had the appearance of being chill and accepting. Outside of the official conference time, during parties, get-togethers, and the like, the misogyny from the tech bros was fucking rampant. All the women in cybersecurity would be judged on appearance, rated on a scale of being fuckable, be called all sorts of slurs that I'd rather not repeat, and the guys would say in extremely disturbing detail what they'd want to do to these women. Another "fun" thing that honestly made my closeted self want to quit tech forever was hearing them debate on which women were trans and just say the absolute most horrendous comments I've ever personally heard. And this was just several days of the year. If just a small taste of that would make me want to never work in the industry again despite being passionate, I cannot even begin to imagine how bad having that happen to these women every day would be. Anyone of these pieces of shit that harmed these women deserve to be named and shamed and never be allowed a job in gaming again. And the worst part is, it would be more generous than what they gave the women harmed by this.
On July 31 2021 09:27 plasmidghost wrote: I'm sure that almost all the people reading this are cis dudes, so here's my thoughts as a trans woman on this coming to light: I work in cybersecurity so while not the same industry, there are many similarities between what I've experienced in my life and what is going on at Blizzard. Pre-transition, whenever I would go to security conferences, the talks and presentations would be professional and courteous. Everything had the appearance of being chill and accepting. Outside of the official conference time, during parties, get-togethers, and the like, the misogyny from the tech bros was fucking rampant. All the women in cybersecurity would be judged on appearance, rated on a scale of being fuckable, be called all sorts of slurs that I'd rather not repeat, and the guys would say in extremely disturbing detail what they'd want to do to these women. Another "fun" thing that honestly made my closeted self want to quit tech forever was hearing them debate on which women were trans and just say the absolute most horrendous comments I've ever personally heard. And this was just several days of the year. If just a small taste of that would make me want to never work in the industry again despite being passionate, I cannot even begin to imagine how bad having that happen to these women every day would be. Anyone of these pieces of shit that harmed these women deserve to be named and shamed and never be allowed a job in gaming again. And the worst part is, it would be more generous than what they gave the women harmed by this.
As a cis dude, all that you have described churns my fucking stomach, and you have my heartfelt sympathies in navigating something that has no right being as fraught as it is, the same as all the women & others that have to deal with harassment, assault, dehumanization, objectification, and more at Blizzard and beyond. It's fucking disgusting. It's very easy for people in positions of privilege to think this stuff doesn't happen that much, but ask pretty much any queer/trans/etc. person, or even any woman in your life, to share what they might've gone through, and you find out just how disturbingly widespread this behavior is. I'm so fucking upset for everyone that has to endure vicious and baseless treatment like this for no reason.
On July 31 2021 06:04 KwarK wrote: Who is calling for you personally to support them? I don’t know that I’d have noticed your lack of support had you not brought it up.
I think Nony is personally upset because he posted a very bad take on Twitter the other day about how Blizzard employees didn't walk out over being forced to implement bad game design in WoW, but they did walk out over a culture of sexual harassment, abuse, and blatant discrimination, so clearly we shouldn't take them at their word that they actually cared about the game design. I replied to him telling him it was a bad take and very tonedeaf, he doubled down, and subsequently deleted his Twitter entirely. I think he took my response as "you must support them" when it was really "hey can you at least be respectful of these people".
I checked in on this thread to see how bad it was getting yesterday, only to find he had since come in here to double down on bad takes about a situation he keeps telling us he doesn't care about enough to find out the details of. Shrug.
On July 31 2021 02:19 404AlphaSquad wrote: When i read this forum, i wonder where all these “perfect people” who go on about what they would do if they were in this situation are hiding in real life.
Nothing is easier than arm chairing from a position of privilege. Yes, I too can sit here and go "If I found discrimination at my job I'd quit!" But you know what? I have money saved up and could get a new job practically tomorrow. It doesn't take a whole lot of empathy (even if you don't have sympathy) to realize that not everyone is as lucky, and isn't able to just up and leave from their dream job, with no security, no backup plan, families to take care of, and bills that needs to be paid.
That's exactly what Blizzard has been banking on for decades between the toxic work environment for women and providing god awful wages that is less than their competitors and far worse than IT service jobs. They're banking on fanboys wanting to work for Blizzard, defend Blizzard, keep the company together, and being terrified of being financially broke.
I have empathy but no sympathy for people who now feel guilt who stood on the sidelines (note: not talking about victims who do not wish to talk here) because these abuses aren't just like some dude saying some stupid shit to a woman one day while blind drunk. We've got stories of groups of men creating a rape hotel suite, walking into breastfeeding rooms just to stare at women, blind drunk cube crawls, people being consistently handsy with women with less power, pushing one person to suicide, etc.
If you were in a position to talk and didn't, you're honestly part of the problem. If you're talking now that the flood barriers have broken, you're just a coward who didn't have the guts to protect your fellow workers. Again, I can ignore some basic abuses to protect my own bag because we're all human. I have no sympathy for people who feel guilty *now* for not speaking up when a group of men literally created a RAPE CLUB. I can safely say I would leave the company/industry right that instant and report that shit to the police/media. I know my worth, perhaps Blizzard employees didn't seeing how they're taking jobs that pay worse than the industry standard by a considerable amount.
I would easily consider ignoring injustice at my workplace if it meant I didn't have to live on the street, and that brings us to the biggest systematic issue in America: A complete lack of safety net. How does one expect employees to stand up for anything when you stand to completely fuck up your life in the process?
Fortunately that's changing right now with the amount of people actually speaking up and able to gather support. When abuses are happening, people are actually speaking up.
On July 31 2021 01:47 KwarK wrote: Nony, I think the issue is your attitude of “I’m willing to blow up my life in the face of injustice and if I die then whatever, I’d have died anyway”. Most people don’t live that way, that’s a very unusual attitude. Most people have priorities like providing for their family, even if their family will also die eventually anyway, and not dying themselves. While they might practically have the same power to blow everything up as you they place a higher value on the sacrifices that would be asked of them.
This may not make sense to you but it does to most people and that’s why there is sympathy to the victims. There is sympathy even though those victims tolerated their abuse due to a sense of powerlessness. They are viewed as powerless even though they had the ability to suicide bomb Blizzard HQ. There are many forms of powerlessness and some people can feel powerless, even if they have the power to make their situation worse.
I am surprised by how much support they've garnered, but I'm not surprised that some people did flock to the cause. In this day and age, I'm not surprised by any cause gaining supporters. No matter how dumb or hateful the cause is, or how awful the people behind it are, there will be supporters.
What I don't understand is why people think I'm wrong for not supporting them. It is far from a black and white issue. A government agency is already taking legal action. And all that aside, the quality of their work and the direction their work both deserve criticism. To me, the obvious course of action is to continue to be critical of them until they actually show some results, since they already had all our support at one point and have only declined since then. Or just forget they exist, let them try to sort themselves out, let the legal action take its course, and give them a clean second chance at some point in the future. But how dare I be critical at a time like this when they just said they're trying to better themselves (and the opportunity to gain leverage over their leadership is just a coincidence, of course).
In a micro or macro sense, this is how social changes work.
The ‘if I die, fuck it’ people lead the charge and eventually spurn on those in the ‘this is wrong but I’m not putting my ass in the line’ camp, and if there’s sufficient mass and a power shift then the ‘I was on the fence but now I’m not’ people swing over, and eventually the behaviour that was perceived as wrong is now policed by the same social and structural powers that enabled or actively encouraged it.
As someone alluded to earlier, the history of Labour movements in the States elsewhere is pretty choc-a-bloc with Union guys fished out of rivers. While a much more entrenched and heinous situation, not everyone is wired like a Rosa Parks is.
Perhaps for the best really, while it can be useful in forging a better social order, if absolutely everyone peaced out at impingements to their particular moral codes, it would be quite difficult to maintain consistently agreed and adhered fo moral frameworks that aid cohesion in various areas.
But yes it definitely does slow down the pace of needed change, in all sorts of areas and the phenomenon exists even in purely social environments with no real stakes. I assume it would still be a frequent occurrence in whatever utopias people conjure up, but it’s sure entrenched in systems that give people real power over others.
I do admire your attitude, and hell if more people shared it I might see some good old socialism in my lifetime! Equally that’s an outlying attitude and I can’t criticise people too harshly for merely being normal. Speaking of employees at Blizzard and what’s going on there now.
I do not particularly see the point in pressure via slacktivism though if the wider population want to jump on the train. It’s not a huge sacrifice to just ignore the company and their products, if you want to do something tangible there is an obvious something there. Notwithstanding people loving jumping on bandwagons before much of anything is known, which isn’t always helpful either.
America's self-mythology is largely to blame here, imo. We tell ourselves that every big change was accomplished through the action of a determined individual, we ignore the collective behind them, the organizing and work it took to get there. We learn of Rosa Parks as a person who had had enough, and wasn't going to give up her bus seat, in a spontaneous event. We don't learn of the community organizing she did before and after that event, that the reason she was able to take such a risk was because she had built up a community of people who were willing to take risks for her. That her power was collective power, not individual.
We tell ourselves that systemic issues are best solved individually. That fixing the destruction of our environment is solvable by simply bringing a reusable bag to the store, or not using a plastic straw. That global warming can be solved if you just plant a tree, or bike to work, or turn off some lights. That we can fix rape culture by simply being willing to speak up once or twice. At best, these ideas are hopelessly naive. At worst, these ideas come directly from companies and entities who stand to lose money if people's ire were to be directed productively, and these sorts of individual-focused narratives allow them to direct people's energy into unproductive action. Quite simply, systemic problems cannot be solved through individual means.
These problems at Blizzard are not an isolated event, we know they are prevalent across the industry, as brazen and shocking as some of the stories included in the lawsuit may be. If a woman experiences harassment at Blizzard, she knows that if she leaves her job, a lot of other jobs available to her are likely to have the same problems. She knows that if she speaks up about it, to try and get these things fixed, she's likely to be forced out, blacklisted, and unable to find good work afterwards. She'll probably have to change industries entirely, to throw away a career she spent her life dreaming about. I'm not sure about everyone else, but the idea of throwing everything away and starting from scratch 30 years into my life isn't really that appealing!
I worked at Google through the years of the walkout there and subsequent actions. I worked closely with people involved in the upper levels of that organizing, I participated in some actions myself, I tried to make myself useful. As a cis white man that was a full time employee and a US citizen, the risk to me was fairly low. I could almost certainly find a job elsewhere in the industry (companies are totally fine hiring "problematic" white men, it turns out). But when looking at my options: leave or organize, there really was only one moral choice to me. By leaving, I was giving the company a (very tiny) signal that I was unhappy with their actions, unlikely to produce any real change. By staying, I could instead lend my power and voice to people that didn't luck into that position in life.
These companies very much want their employees operating on an individual level. They hire firms that specialize and have tons of experience in tracking organizing work, subverting efforts to change things, and forcing out "problem" employees without technically violating the law. You come into work one day to find your role has changed unexpectedly. You talk to your boss about it, they give you an excuse that doesn't make sense. You escalate, you tell your coworkers, suddenly you find that an executive 3 levels above you has emailed the entire department to tell them what a terrible person you are, how ineffective you are, how you've been lying to everyone. You go to HR, they tell you, "wow you've been acting pretty stressed and not yourself lately, maybe you should take medical leave? Talk to our therapist?" If you do take either of those options, the company uses it against you. You come back to find your old position is completely gone, you work with entirely new people, your responsibilities reduced completely. The company asks for the therapist's records should you ever decide to sue them. If you take neither option, they'll continue to gaslight you in front of your coworkers until you decide to show yourself the door.
This all sounds pretty crazy, right? No way this is a real situation. Except, it is:
These problems are not unique to Blizzard, they're not unique to Riot, they're not unique to Google or Amazon. They are prevalent across the whole games industry, the entire tech industry, many other industries as well. These companies all run to the same firms to help them shut down any efforts to change, they release the same sorts of statements about how these bad apples are all safely in the past, the discrimination and harassment problem has been fixed! Certainly no further action is needed! The goal of all of this is to defuse the energy that exists in this moment, to prevent it from affecting real change, to direct it into something unproductive that costs them little. We don't have to settle for that, we can demand more, together.
On July 31 2021 06:04 KwarK wrote: Who is calling for you personally to support them? I don’t know that I’d have noticed your lack of support had you not brought it up.
TL being closed for a day was clearly the TL staff throwing their support behind the movement. Users of TL had their typical use interrupted whether they supported it or not.
It's the type of thing that usually helps me turn against a movement. It's like when people protest out in a street and block traffic. You made me wait in traffic for hours? Fuck you and your movement. I'll vote against whatever you want out of spite even if I believe in your movement in principle.
The walkout, I don't agree with the timing. They used a very real problem (the harassment issues) to gather momentum for a completely separate problem (poor working conditions). The problem the walkout was addressing was the poor working conditions for the rank-and-file employees within the industry with the solution being unionization. It had nothing to do with the harassment problem, but the harassment problem was used to catalyze the movement.
Who was doing the harassing? For the most part, it was the rank-and-file employees up to middle-management. The only upper management that seems to be named is Afrasiabi and he was fired last year. The people performing the walk-out were the problem. The people demanding unionization are the people doing the harassing. Do you want those people to be harder to fire? Do you stand with the harassers? TL.net chose to.
I'm sure TL didn't stand with the harassers on purpose. It just got caught up in the conflation of two separate problems, but it was still a very poor decision.
To reiterate that it wasn't the bosses, here's another tweet of another incident involving Blizzard employees in their absolute mess of an HR department:
It sounds like some recruiters (who usually work for HR and are not usually high level employees) were absolutely terrible. I personally wouldn't want to piss off the black-hat hacking community, but they had no problem harassing a segment of it.
On July 31 2021 06:04 KwarK wrote: Who is calling for you personally to support them? I don’t know that I’d have noticed your lack of support had you not brought it up.
TL being closed for a day was clearly the TL staff throwing their support behind the movement. Users of TL had their typical use interrupted whether they supported it or not.
It's the type of thing that usually helps me turn against a movement. It's like when people protest out in a street and block traffic. You made me wait in traffic for hours? Fuck you and your movement. I'll vote against whatever you want out of spite even if I believe in your movement in principle.
It sounds like you don't really agree with a movement in principle if you value one day's commute more highly than the message a group is trying to send. A group can protest in your eyes, but only where you don't have to see it or pay attention to it.
If all protests were done quietly where only people interested in it would choose to see it, you know how much change they would effect? Zero. Nevermind that it's the peak of privilege to be annoyed at having to look at a picket line for a few minutes, compared to the work they put in doing the demonstrations, and the strife they've had to endure that makes that demonstration worth it to them in the first place. Calm down, you're fine.
Thats a pretty high tier entitled asshole mindset, "They didnt let me post on their StarCraft forum! I hope they keep sexually abusing people at Activision-Blizzard!"
Like god damn, thats petty lol
Also, the people in the Cosby Suite are not rank and file Blizzard randos. Greg Street? Not a random rank and file person. Jesse McCree? Not a random rank and file person. David Kosak? Not a random rank and file person. Cory Stockton? Not a random rank and file person.
These are leads and creative directors, and the lawsuit names Jay Allen Brack as knowing this sort of shit was going on and dealing with it woefully inadequately.
This isnt a scenario where those dastardly entry level employees were running amok while the good wholesome senior staff were doing their jobs, blissfully unaware of the chaos happening underneath them. There were almost certainly rank and file people who had behaved inappropriately, but given the leadership, the state of the Cosby Room as an influential networking opportunity, its pretty clear that upper level staff not only engaged in this behavior, but were almost certainly actively hiring people that were engaging in this sort of behavior with them.
The piss is clearly trickling down from on high at Blizzard, and this is ignoring some of the Activision specific studio allegations, specifically shit like having your lower level employees do your work while you play games, its thought that this allegation was specifically of Treyarch staff having their lower level female staff do their work while they dicked around playing Call of Duty.
Management has the power, they set and enforce the rules, they have the responsibility.
If the actions of some black people can change your view on whether black people deserve civil rights then it sounds like you don’t think black people deserve civil rights.
On July 31 2021 12:08 RenSC2 wrote: It's the type of thing that usually helps me turn against a movement. It's like when people protest out in a street and block traffic. You made me wait in traffic for hours? Fuck you and your movement. I'll vote against whatever you want out of spite even if I believe in your movement in principle.
The whole point is to inconvenience people so that they are forced to spend their attention on the subject, because it's so easy to ignore it and so easy to even miss that there is a problem. Someone comes to TL and finds the site shuttered, they may end up learning more about what's going on.
There will always be people like you who will react in spite, but you were never going to be an ally to the cause if that's all it took for you to go all the way to "Fuck you and your movement". You are the type of person to always have an excuse for why you don't really support the movement. Do you even hear yourself when you say something like that? How spiteful and callous that sounds? Especially the example you gave, where most recently people used that tactic protesting police brutality and a system that literally results in murder. But God forbid you have to take a slight detour. Then fuck it, they deserve to die right?
On July 30 2021 09:20 NonY wrote: the worst that can happen is your life ends shorter than you were hoping for. do what you want with your life.
And what if you have a family, or young kids, you fucking jackass?
Some of the takes in this thread are beyond ridiculous.
There's no need for insults, but yeah, some of the takes have been a bit on the bizarre side. My favourite was 'scared to quit your job because of the financial issues it presents? Just move to Europe!'
It's the type of thing that usually helps me turn against a movement. It's like when people protest out in a street and block traffic. You made me wait in traffic for hours?
The goal of the protest is to cause you a tiny bit of discomfort and make you aware of the problems. If you experience this micro discomfort and your reaction is to say "Fuxk the victims, I hope they get abused even more" then it says a lot about your character, your selfish and self absorbed nature and your absolute lack of empathy.
On July 31 2021 01:47 KwarK wrote: Nony, I think the issue is your attitude of “I’m willing to blow up my life in the face of injustice and if I die then whatever, I’d have died anyway”. Most people don’t live that way, that’s a very unusual attitude. Most people have priorities like providing for their family, even if their family will also die eventually anyway, and not dying themselves. While they might practically have the same power to blow everything up as you they place a higher value on the sacrifices that would be asked of them.
This may not make sense to you but it does to most people and that’s why there is sympathy to the victims. There is sympathy even though those victims tolerated their abuse due to a sense of powerlessness. They are viewed as powerless even though they had the ability to suicide bomb Blizzard HQ. There are many forms of powerlessness and some people can feel powerless, even if they have the power to make their situation worse.
I am surprised by how much support they've garnered, but I'm not surprised that some people did flock to the cause. In this day and age, I'm not surprised by any cause gaining supporters. No matter how dumb or hateful the cause is, or how awful the people behind it are, there will be supporters.
What I don't understand is why people think I'm wrong for not supporting them. It is far from a black and white issue. A government agency is already taking legal action. And all that aside, the quality of their work and the direction their work both deserve criticism. To me, the obvious course of action is to continue to be critical of them until they actually show some results, since they already had all our support at one point and have only declined since then. Or just forget they exist, let them try to sort themselves out, let the legal action take its course, and give them a clean second chance at some point in the future. But how dare I be critical at a time like this when they just said they're trying to better themselves (and the opportunity to gain leverage over their leadership is just a coincidence, of course).
In a micro or macro sense, this is how social changes work.
The ‘if I die, fuck it’ people lead the charge and eventually spurn on those in the ‘this is wrong but I’m not putting my ass in the line’ camp, and if there’s sufficient mass and a power shift then the ‘I was on the fence but now I’m not’ people swing over, and eventually the behaviour that was perceived as wrong is now policed by the same social and structural powers that enabled or actively encouraged it.
As someone alluded to earlier, the history of Labour movements in the States elsewhere is pretty choc-a-bloc with Union guys fished out of rivers. While a much more entrenched and heinous situation, not everyone is wired like a Rosa Parks is.
Perhaps for the best really, while it can be useful in forging a better social order, if absolutely everyone peaced out at impingements to their particular moral codes, it would be quite difficult to maintain consistently agreed and adhered fo moral frameworks that aid cohesion in various areas.
But yes it definitely does slow down the pace of needed change, in all sorts of areas and the phenomenon exists even in purely social environments with no real stakes. I assume it would still be a frequent occurrence in whatever utopias people conjure up, but it’s sure entrenched in systems that give people real power over others.
I do admire your attitude, and hell if more people shared it I might see some good old socialism in my lifetime! Equally that’s an outlying attitude and I can’t criticise people too harshly for merely being normal. Speaking of employees at Blizzard and what’s going on there now.
I do not particularly see the point in pressure via slacktivism though if the wider population want to jump on the train. It’s not a huge sacrifice to just ignore the company and their products, if you want to do something tangible there is an obvious something there. Notwithstanding people loving jumping on bandwagons before much of anything is known, which isn’t always helpful either.
America's self-mythology is largely to blame here, imo. We tell ourselves that every big change was accomplished through the action of a determined individual, we ignore the collective behind them, the organizing and work it took to get there. We learn of Rosa Parks as a person who had had enough, and wasn't going to give up her bus seat, in a spontaneous event. We don't learn of the community organizing she did before and after that event, that the reason she was able to take such a risk was because she had built up a community of people who were willing to take risks for her. That her power was collective power, not individual.
We tell ourselves that systemic issues are best solved individually. That fixing the destruction of our environment is solvable by simply bringing a reusable bag to the store, or not using a plastic straw. That global warming can be solved if you just plant a tree, or bike to work, or turn off some lights. That we can fix rape culture by simply being willing to speak up once or twice. At best, these ideas are hopelessly naive. At worst, these ideas come directly from companies and entities who stand to lose money if people's ire were to be directed productively, and these sorts of individual-focused narratives allow them to direct people's energy into unproductive action. Quite simply, systemic problems cannot be solved through individual means.
These problems at Blizzard are not an isolated event, we know they are prevalent across the industry, as brazen and shocking as some of the stories included in the lawsuit may be. If a woman experiences harassment at Blizzard, she knows that if she leaves her job, a lot of other jobs available to her are likely to have the same problems. She knows that if she speaks up about it, to try and get these things fixed, she's likely to be forced out, blacklisted, and unable to find good work afterwards. She'll probably have to change industries entirely, to throw away a career she spent her life dreaming about. I'm not sure about everyone else, but the idea of throwing everything away and starting from scratch 30 years into my life isn't really that appealing!
I worked at Google through the years of the walkout there and subsequent actions. I worked closely with people involved in the upper levels of that organizing, I participated in some actions myself, I tried to make myself useful. As a cis white man that was a full time employee and a US citizen, the risk to me was fairly low. I could almost certainly find a job elsewhere in the industry (companies are totally fine hiring "problematic" white men, it turns out). But when looking at my options: leave or organize, there really was only one moral choice to me. By leaving, I was giving the company a (very tiny) signal that I was unhappy with their actions, unlikely to produce any real change. By staying, I could instead lend my power and voice to people that didn't luck into that position in life.
These companies very much want their employees operating on an individual level. They hire firms that specialize and have tons of experience in tracking organizing work, subverting efforts to change things, and forcing out "problem" employees without technically violating the law. You come into work one day to find your role has changed unexpectedly. You talk to your boss about it, they give you an excuse that doesn't make sense. You escalate, you tell your coworkers, suddenly you find that an executive 3 levels above you has emailed the entire department to tell them what a terrible person you are, how ineffective you are, how you've been lying to everyone. You go to HR, they tell you, "wow you've been acting pretty stressed and not yourself lately, maybe you should take medical leave? Talk to our therapist?" If you do take either of those options, the company uses it against you. You come back to find your old position is completely gone, you work with entirely new people, your responsibilities reduced completely. The company asks for the therapist's records should you ever decide to sue them. If you take neither option, they'll continue to gaslight you in front of your coworkers until you decide to show yourself the door.
This all sounds pretty crazy, right? No way this is a real situation. Except, it is:
These problems are not unique to Blizzard, they're not unique to Riot, they're not unique to Google or Amazon. They are prevalent across the whole games industry, the entire tech industry, many other industries as well. These companies all run to the same firms to help them shut down any efforts to change, they release the same sorts of statements about how these bad apples are all safely in the past, the discrimination and harassment problem has been fixed! Certainly no further action is needed! The goal of all of this is to defuse the energy that exists in this moment, to prevent it from affecting real change, to direct it into something unproductive that costs them little. We don't have to settle for that, we can demand more, together.
Good post, the sad part is that doesn’t sound particularly crazy at all, which is very much the sad part. Hopefully in the future at some juncture it will appear utterly insane to people to read.
Agree very much about the myth of individualism, I mean it’s a factor elsewhere too but it seems, like many things a degree amplified stateside.
On July 31 2021 17:32 WombaT wrote: The company asks for the therapist's records should you ever decide to sue them.
Is doctor-patient confidentiality not a thing in the US, or does that just not extend to mental health?
Light googling indicates it might be a mixed bag with regards to therapy, it seems to depend on whether or not the therapy is provided through something called an Employee Assistance Program, if it is done through an EAP it appears it might not be covered under any sort of doctor-patient confidentiality requirements.
I obviously hardly know the scope or complexity of this, but it kind of seems fucked that an employer can potentially use your therapy notes against you. I imagine thats probably viewed as a perk for employers to set these programs up, assuming that they work the way this implies.
9. My company has an employee assistance program (EAP) which I have used to receive mental health counseling. Will any information I reveal to my counselor be kept confidential from my employer?
An employee assistance program may be another type of "hybrid" entity, depending on how its information is transmitted and transactions are conducted. If so, the records maintained by the health clinic are subject to the same protections that apply to other covered entities. "Referral only" EAPs, which provide only referrals to mental health counselors are not subject to HIPAA, nor are EAPs provided through a disability income insurance policy.
Before you disclose any information to a counselor through the EAP program that you would not want your employer to know, you should ask whether the program is subject to HIPAA or has a privacy policy that governs how your medical information is used and whether a release of information is required in the event the employee seeks an accommodation for a physical or emotional problem. However, if any instances of child abuse or neglect are suspected, then the employer must report it to State or local authorities.
I was wondering whether to buy Diablo 2 Resurrected and I already had some my doubts, I guess I'll pass this opportunity considering how incompetent Blizzard leadership has become after reading about allegations here.
California's investigation started two years ago. Mike Morhaime left the company two years ago. How sad we all were then to be losing him. Definitely has a bit of a rats jumping the ship vibe to it now. He knew. He enabled. And if he sold stocks on this info he can be held accountable by the SEC for insider trading. I am thinking that will be of very little console to all the women that he allowed to be traumatized under his "leadership." At least he got out in time to save his own skin though, right?
On July 31 2021 22:30 StalkyBear wrote: California's investigation started two years ago. Mike Morhaime left the company two years ago. How sad we all were then to be losing him. Definitely has a bit of a rats jumping the ship vibe to it now. He knew. He enabled. And if he sold stocks on this info he can be held accountable by the SEC for insider trading. I am thinking that will be of very little console to all the women that he allowed to be traumatized under his "leadership." At least he got out in time to save his own skin though, right?
Oh get out of here! Do you really think that Mike leaving Blizz when he did had ANYTHING to do with this? I sincerely doubt it. He left when he did because that's when Activision was becoming tyrannical over the company and ruining the quality of the products.
He was being pushed out, for years before that for much of the same reason.
What was going on with this lawsuit was occuring below him. He had his hands so full with all of the bullshit that was happening at his level that it's almost impossible to think that anything happening below him was anywhere on his radar.
You seriously really need to rethink your timeline here. Don't let the news of the moment completely skew how you see the last few years. MANY other things were going on and MANY other people were leaving and all of them were citing things that were not related to this lawsuit as for why they left.
On July 31 2021 06:04 KwarK wrote: Who is calling for you personally to support them? I don’t know that I’d have noticed your lack of support had you not brought it up.
I used the walkout as an opportunity to criticize them, just in a joking way, and apparently it was a major faux pas. As if the company full of people lying and failing to deliver on their promises now deserves some more slack when it's revealed that they're also a company with a hostile work environment full of misogynists and silent enablers. Sure, they've disrespected and lied to their loyal customers who give them the benefit of the doubt over and over again when it comes to game development, but now when it comes to a thing as simple as changing their entire toxic culture, yes let's all line up and believe them again and support them!
There was at least an illusion that the executives were forcing the game development in a direction that was more like "how can we impress shareholders each quarter" even if that's at the expense of a healthier long term plan of simply making good games, which ideally is best for everyone, shareholders included. So people had this ideal in their heads of pure-of-heart developers doing the best they can under the directives of money-grubbing suits who don't care about anything but profits. But no, it turns out there are scumbags at all levels, and a prevailing social acceptance among everyone else that "hey it's totally okay to stay silent and enable this to save our careers. we can't be expected to put ourselves at risk in an attempt to prevent more victims."
But hey they pinkie promise swear they're going to absolutely transform themselves and be better! And oh how awful it was for me to interrupt this kumbaya moment with the derision they have earned many times over.
On July 31 2021 06:04 KwarK wrote: Who is calling for you personally to support them? I don’t know that I’d have noticed your lack of support had you not brought it up.
I think Nony is personally upset because he posted a very bad take on Twitter the other day about how Blizzard employees didn't walk out over being forced to implement bad game design in WoW, but they did walk out over a culture of sexual harassment, abuse, and blatant discrimination, so clearly we shouldn't take them at their word that they actually cared about the game design. I replied to him telling him it was a bad take and very tonedeaf, he doubled down, and subsequently deleted his Twitter entirely. I think he took my response as "you must support them" when it was really "hey can you at least be respectful of these people".
I checked in on this thread to see how bad it was getting yesterday, only to find he had since come in here to double down on bad takes about a situation he keeps telling us he doesn't care about enough to find out the details of. Shrug.
rofl i blacked out my twitter account to join in the support despite my strong beliefs to the contrary that this absolutely shitty group of people might actually be able to change things, and this is your response?
you're a real piece of shit. just goes to show that you dont care about the issues but would rather flit around looking for an opportunity to appear morally superior
no, im not going to INCREASE my respect of people when it turns out that they're worse than i knew
Dirtbags, simple as that. Shame though, you always hope that the games you play and invest time in is developed, maintained and backed by good guys, clearly this isn't the case.
The fact the TL website went for a 24h blackout is really telling, knowing this used to be a place where Blizzard was admired, obviously for the games mostly but still, a very strong message also to those who tried to ignore it whilst visiting TL daily.
On July 31 2021 22:30 StalkyBear wrote: California's investigation started two years ago. Mike Morhaime left the company two years ago. How sad we all were then to be losing him. Definitely has a bit of a rats jumping the ship vibe to it now. He knew. He enabled. And if he sold stocks on this info he can be held accountable by the SEC for insider trading. I am thinking that will be of very little console to all the women that he allowed to be traumatized under his "leadership." At least he got out in time to save his own skin though, right?
Oh get out of here! Do you really think that Mike leaving Blizz when he did had ANYTHING to do with this? I sincerely doubt it. He left when he did because that's when Activision was becoming tyrannical over the company and ruining the quality of the products.
He was being pushed out, for years before that for much of the same reason.
What was going on with this lawsuit was occuring below him. He had his hands so full with all of the bullshit that was happening at his level that it's almost impossible to think that anything happening below him was anywhere on his radar.
You seriously really need to rethink your timeline here. Don't let the news of the moment completely skew how you see the last few years. MANY other things were going on and MANY other people were leaving and all of them were citing things that were not related to this lawsuit as for why they left.
I am not so sure, I think it needs to be closely looked at. Another incident reported from someone who was in the SC2 esports scene: . From the twitlonger it sounds like Morhaime was very well aware of Afrasiabi's behavior and actions. Also from this recent article(note sure if true or not so of course has to be evaluated for accuracy) https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/07/blizzard-confirms-developer-named-in-lawsuit-was-removed-for-misconduct/ Afrasiabi was fired not too long after Morhaime left (perspective if this has been going on since 2010 - 9 years and then he's fired in just one year after his boss leaves).
I am not outright condemning Morhaime but it certainly seems as though he may have been part of this picture at least in coverup mode and did jump ship once California started to go into full blown investigation mode.
It's literally impossible that Mike didn't know what was up from the beginning. I believe he wasn't himself a harasser, but he definitely knew because people reported it to and confided in him, and he glossed things over every time and just moved on. He knew about the Cosby Suite.
I also find it difficult to believe he had no idea an investigation was going to be taking place. A state-sponsored investigation doesn't happen out of nowhere, and in fact probably only happens when the people who came to executives like Mike realized they weren't being listened to. If he took action in the first place it could've been avoided.
On July 31 2021 22:30 StalkyBear wrote: California's investigation started two years ago. Mike Morhaime left the company two years ago. How sad we all were then to be losing him. Definitely has a bit of a rats jumping the ship vibe to it now. He knew. He enabled. And if he sold stocks on this info he can be held accountable by the SEC for insider trading. I am thinking that will be of very little console to all the women that he allowed to be traumatized under his "leadership." At least he got out in time to save his own skin though, right?
Oh get out of here! Do you really think that Mike leaving Blizz when he did had ANYTHING to do with this? I sincerely doubt it. He left when he did because that's when Activision was becoming tyrannical over the company and ruining the quality of the products.
He was being pushed out, for years before that for much of the same reason.
What was going on with this lawsuit was occuring below him. He had his hands so full with all of the bullshit that was happening at his level that it's almost impossible to think that anything happening below him was anywhere on his radar.
You seriously really need to rethink your timeline here. Don't let the news of the moment completely skew how you see the last few years. MANY other things were going on and MANY other people were leaving and all of them were citing things that were not related to this lawsuit as for why they left.
I am not so sure, I think it needs to be closely looked at. Another incident reported from someone who was in the SC2 esports scene: https://twitter.com/Treasureeeee/status/1419684879978176518 . From the twitlonger it sounds like Morhaime was very well aware of Afrasiabi's behavior and actions. Also from this recent article(note sure if true or not so of course has to be evaluated for accuracy) https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/07/blizzard-confirms-developer-named-in-lawsuit-was-removed-for-misconduct/ Afrasiabi was fired not too long after Morhaime left (perspective if this has been going on since 2010 - 9 years and then he's fired in just one year after his boss leaves).
I am not outright condemning Morhaime but it certainly seems as though he may have been part of this picture at least in coverup mode and did jump ship once California started to go into full blown investigation mode.
Look it's a hard IF for me with Mike as to how aware he was of this situation. It's possible for sure I'm not going to say it's not. I've met Mike, he seems like a genuinely good guy, so when the court releases evidence that he didn't do anything to put a stop to behavior that he was aware of I'm going to be sad and disappointed in him, but not before that.
What I CAN say without a moment of hesitation is that this lawsuit and the behavior it is describing had NOTHING to do with why he left the company. That can even be seen as a bad thing depending how you look at it. He was being pushed out of Blizzard for years as it became more and more corporatized and the board of suits that wanted to make money above all else started making decisions that became more and more "un-Blizzard-like" as the years went on. The drop off in quality with World of Warcraft as well as numerous other complete disasters like W3 Reforged is just evidence of how far the company has dropped in terms of being the company we grew up on. Mike left for THOSE reasons, not because of anything described in this lawsuit.
How much he was aware of, or contributed to the problems this lawsuit lays out is unclear. He's being vocally repentant and supportive on twitter which I appreciate, so until I hear from California how much evidence they have on how much he knew I am going to be on his side. He's the only one here that I'm defending too. I don't have any defense for Alex Afrasiabi, he was fired when he was probably for reasons that have to do with this lawsuit, I don't know but I'm not giving him ANY of the benefit of the doubt that I'm giving Mike.
I don't think there's any way to definitively say that Mike left for reasons completely unrelated to an investigation that was being launched just as he left the company. As I've said already, state-sponsored investigations don't start overnight, and the behavior that prompted this one had been going on basically since Blizzard's inception, so there's no way he didn't know what was going on. He knew what was going on within the company, and had to know something was happening on the outside as well. It just doesn't pass a smell test.
I would also highlight for emphasis that Mike Morhaime was consistently present in Anne's story linked above, where Alex Afrasiabi repeatedly harasses and assaults her. He was in the room for most of that, definitely enough to know that it was happening, and at times close enough to have said something to Alex or Anne personally as the assaults were taking place, if he didn't condone that behavior. Nobody suffered consequences for what happened to Anne that night. All the big boys knew. Mike knew.
On August 01 2021 06:21 NewSunshine wrote:the behavior that prompted this one had been going on basically since Blizzard's inception, so there's no way he didn't know what was going on.
What behaviour? Who were the female employees when Morhaime, Adham, and Pierce started the company ? looking at old photos it appeared there were zero female employees. Bob Fitch brought his newborn baby to work when he was working on SC1. Hard to envision Fitch bringing his new wife and newborn around a work place with sexual harassment.
Blizzard has 9000 employees. It is very rare for any group of 9000 to have zero total idiots. As many Americans have criminal records as college diplomas. On top of that, there are lots of Americans who are criminals without having a criminal record. I fully expect any company of 9000 people to employ a few criminals in their group.
The video game industry has been super shadey for 40+ years. Same shit... different decade.
On July 31 2021 22:30 StalkyBear wrote: California's investigation started two years ago. Mike Morhaime left the company two years ago. How sad we all were then to be losing him. Definitely has a bit of a rats jumping the ship vibe to it now. He knew. He enabled. And if he sold stocks on this info he can be held accountable by the SEC for insider trading. I am thinking that will be of very little console to all the women that he allowed to be traumatized under his "leadership." At least he got out in time to save his own skin though, right?
Oh get out of here! Do you really think that Mike leaving Blizz when he did had ANYTHING to do with this? I sincerely doubt it. He left when he did because that's when Activision was becoming tyrannical over the company and ruining the quality of the products.
He was being pushed out, for years before that for much of the same reason.
What was going on with this lawsuit was occuring below him. He had his hands so full with all of the bullshit that was happening at his level that it's almost impossible to think that anything happening below him was anywhere on his radar.
You seriously really need to rethink your timeline here. Don't let the news of the moment completely skew how you see the last few years. MANY other things were going on and MANY other people were leaving and all of them were citing things that were not related to this lawsuit as for why they left.
I am not so sure, I think it needs to be closely looked at. Another incident reported from someone who was in the SC2 esports scene: https://twitter.com/Treasureeeee/status/1419684879978176518 . From the twitlonger it sounds like Morhaime was very well aware of Afrasiabi's behavior and actions. Also from this recent article(note sure if true or not so of course has to be evaluated for accuracy) https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/07/blizzard-confirms-developer-named-in-lawsuit-was-removed-for-misconduct/ Afrasiabi was fired not too long after Morhaime left (perspective if this has been going on since 2010 - 9 years and then he's fired in just one year after his boss leaves).
I am not outright condemning Morhaime but it certainly seems as though he may have been part of this picture at least in coverup mode and did jump ship once California started to go into full blown investigation mode.
Look it's a hard IF for me with Mike as to how aware he was of this situation. It's possible for sure I'm not going to say it's not. I've met Mike, he seems like a genuinely good guy, so when the court releases evidence that he didn't do anything to put a stop to behavior that he was aware of I'm going to be sad and disappointed in him, but not before that.
What I CAN say without a moment of hesitation is that this lawsuit and the behavior it is describing had NOTHING to do with why he left the company. That can even be seen as a bad thing depending how you look at it. He was being pushed out of Blizzard for years as it became more and more corporatized and the board of suits that wanted to make money above all else started making decisions that became more and more "un-Blizzard-like" as the years went on. The drop off in quality with World of Warcraft as well as numerous other complete disasters like W3 Reforged is just evidence of how far the company has dropped in terms of being the company we grew up on. Mike left for THOSE reasons, not because of anything described in this lawsuit.
How much he was aware of, or contributed to the problems this lawsuit lays out is unclear. He's being vocally repentant and supportive on twitter which I appreciate, so until I hear from California how much evidence they have on how much he knew I am going to be on his side. He's the only one here that I'm defending too. I don't have any defense for Alex Afrasiabi, he was fired when he was probably for reasons that have to do with this lawsuit, I don't know but I'm not giving him ANY of the benefit of the doubt that I'm giving Mike.
Did he personally tell you this or do you have a direct source to back up Morhaime leaving solely due to corporatization? Here is a plausible scenario: Morhaime disliked the corporatization going on and planned to leave in a few years and then start his new venture to make the next generation of great games. Then he found out about this investigation that was going on and how bad it looked and decided to leave immediately and begin his new venture before the investigation completed and went public since leaving after the investigation would make his new venture much harder to start.
Side note: Does anyone know if Jeff Kaplan has made any comment? He always struck me as the nicest guy but the timing of his departure(extremely abrupt in the middle of OW2 development) looks pretty bad especially as he was also one of the main people on WoW and project Titan along with Afrasiabi. In fact if I remember correctly they were also both hired onto the WoW team based on being Everquest guild leaders.
On August 01 2021 06:21 NewSunshine wrote:the behavior that prompted this one had been going on basically since Blizzard's inception, so there's no way he didn't know what was going on.
What behaviour? Who were the female employees when Morhaime, Adham, and Pierce started the company ? looking at old photos it appeared there were zero female employees. Bob Fitch brought his newborn baby to work when he was working on SC1. Hard to envision Fitch bringing his new wife and newborn around a work place with sexual harassment.
Blizzard has 9000 employees. It is very rare for any group of 9000 to have zero total idiots. As many Americans have criminal records as college diplomas. On top of that, there are lots of Americans who are criminals without having a criminal record. I fully expect any company of 9000 people to employ a few criminals in their group.
The video game industry has been super shadey for 40+ years. Same shit... different decade.
I'm really not interested in your excuses. Blizzard leadership has been shown to be almost exclusively shit human beings who treat women like shit. Don't enter the conversation with "but that's just how it is". It's not a good look.
Also, thank you for correcting the record and pointing out that Blizzard had 0 female employees in the very beginning. I'm not sure it makes the point you think it does, but you do you.
On August 01 2021 19:11 Timebon3s wrote: We need proof to back up people being good, but when they're accused of doing something bad we don't need any proof. nice
Did you miss the 2 year investigation that preceded all of this news? Or do you need to see criminal charges before you believe a victim over someone with power?
I honestly don't have much of an opinion about any of this other than first and foremost, victims should get all the support they need. Because that's the single most important part right now. Secondly, I really don't think all the assumptions made in this thread are helping anybody and can lead to a speculative sh*tshow, that can get toxic really fast. I hope that eventually enough evidence and testimonies will lead to a fair trial for all parties involved, especially the victims and that in the end justice will be served... man that really sounded more like a political statement than I originally intended. But considering the sensitive nature of the subject matter, I think that's appropriate.
On August 01 2021 06:21 NewSunshine wrote:the behavior that prompted this one had been going on basically since Blizzard's inception, so there's no way he didn't know what was going on.
What behaviour? Who were the female employees when Morhaime, Adham, and Pierce started the company ? looking at old photos it appeared there were zero female employees. Bob Fitch brought his newborn baby to work when he was working on SC1. Hard to envision Fitch bringing his new wife and newborn around a work place with sexual harassment.
Blizzard has 9000 employees. It is very rare for any group of 9000 to have zero total idiots. As many Americans have criminal records as college diplomas. On top of that, there are lots of Americans who are criminals without having a criminal record. I fully expect any company of 9000 people to employ a few criminals in their group.
The video game industry has been super shadey for 40+ years. Same shit... different decade.
I'm really not interested in your excuses. Blizzard leadership has been shown to be almost exclusively shit human beings who treat women like shit. Don't enter the conversation with "but that's just how it is". It's not a good look.
Also, thank you for correcting the record and pointing out that Blizzard had 0 female employees in the very beginning. I'm not sure it makes the point you think it does, but you do you.
On August 01 2021 19:11 Timebon3s wrote: We need proof to back up people being good, but when they're accused of doing something bad we don't need any proof. nice
Did you miss the 2 year investigation that preceded all of this news? Or do you need to see criminal charges before you believe a victim over someone with power?
Well when we are speculating about Mike Morhaimes involvement, I consider him innocent until proven guilty
On August 01 2021 06:21 NewSunshine wrote:the behavior that prompted this one had been going on basically since Blizzard's inception, so there's no way he didn't know what was going on.
What behaviour? Who were the female employees when Morhaime, Adham, and Pierce started the company ? looking at old photos it appeared there were zero female employees. Bob Fitch brought his newborn baby to work when he was working on SC1. Hard to envision Fitch bringing his new wife and newborn around a work place with sexual harassment.
Blizzard has 9000 employees. It is very rare for any group of 9000 to have zero total idiots. As many Americans have criminal records as college diplomas. On top of that, there are lots of Americans who are criminals without having a criminal record. I fully expect any company of 9000 people to employ a few criminals in their group.
The video game industry has been super shadey for 40+ years. Same shit... different decade.
I'm really not interested in your excuses. Blizzard leadership has been shown to be almost exclusively shit human beings who treat women like shit. Don't enter the conversation with "but that's just how it is". It's not a good look.
Also, thank you for correcting the record and pointing out that Blizzard had 0 female employees in the very beginning. I'm not sure it makes the point you think it does, but you do you.
On August 01 2021 19:11 Timebon3s wrote: We need proof to back up people being good, but when they're accused of doing something bad we don't need any proof. nice
Did you miss the 2 year investigation that preceded all of this news? Or do you need to see criminal charges before you believe a victim over someone with power?
Well when we are speculating about Mike Morhaimes involvement, I consider him innocent until proven guilty
Innocent until proven guilty and ‘he’s a nice guy, he couldn’t have known about this’ are different, and not even that subtly.
But yes. I don’t feel I have sufficient detail to know how much or otherwise a higher up in a huge studio has about goings on down the chain.
It’s equally plausible to me that he turned a blind eye and was fully aware as it is that he knew nothing and was insulated by layers of personnel.
Authoritative statements either way, I dunno I don’t feel they can really be substantiated, at least not with what’s publicly known. Probably why the state has spent quite some time in preparing this case, as they do have much higher burdens of proof etc.
What if I twist the argument a little bit for you guys:
If Mike Morhaime didn't know about what was going on within his own company, does that really mean he's off the hook? His job was literally to know about these things (among much more, of course), and not knowing about them meant he did such a terrible job it borders on negligence. He actively ran a company which fostered this kind of environment, and not knowing about it isn't necessarily a valid excuse.
To me, he's guilty either way, whether he knew about it or not. The question is only on whether it was due to malice or incompetence
On August 02 2021 03:09 Excludos wrote: What if I twist the argument a little bit for you guys:
If Mike Morhaime didn't know about what was going on within his own company, does that really mean he's off the hook? His job was literally to know about these things (among much more, of course), and not knowing about them meant he did such a terrible job it borders on negligence. He actively ran a company which fostered this kind of environment, and not knowing about it isn't necessarily a valid excuse.
To me, he's guilty either way, whether he knew about it or not. The question is only on whether it was due to malice or incompetence
I’d certainly agree with that, within reason and awaiting what emerges from this. You get the big bucks for a reason, but greater responsibility and accountability (should) be part of the other side of that coin.
If you’re high up the chain of a giant corporation and some singular office somewhere has a terrible work environment, that gets complaints escalated and is dealt with, the structure you sit on top of is doing its job and I wouldn’t personally fault a CEO for not knowing of the activities of said office. If it’s across a fair chunk of your company and sits unresolved to the degree this has escalated, you’ve dropped the ball somewhere.
I work with a lot of other people, and a lot of shit goes down that the bosses can't possibly be aware of. Imagine having 9000 employees. Yeah, it's his job to know these things but ffs he is not guilty of sexual harassment just because he is a boss.
@Vindicare605 So you met the guy once and believe whatever fleeting impression you may have gleaned from your chance passing and now its suddenly more likely to you that Mike is innocent and the people who worked directly with him are lying?
Josh Allen@devolore "If I'd known this was happening I would have stopped it" says the man who was told repeatedly that it was happening and did nothing to stop it
Josh Allen@devolore I've refrained from giving my own comments on the situation at Actiblizz because frankly, there are more important people you should be listening to right now.
But that statement from a certain former leader was 100% bullshit and I'm furious about it. He knew. He did nothing.
Cher Scarlett @cherthedev As hard as this is, and knowing I'll never work in games again:
Mike was directly responsible for the chain reaction of events that got me nearly fired for cc'ing him about Tia Zimmerman threatening me with violence for contacting emergency dispatch when she threatened suicide. 2:25 PM · Jul 24, 2021
This is just the teeniest tip of the iceberg. if you believe mike was innocent in all this you are naive af.
On August 02 2021 04:15 Timebon3s wrote: I work with a lot of other people, and a lot of shit goes down that the bosses can't possibly be aware of. Imagine having 9000 employees. Yeah, it's his job to know these things but ffs he is not guilty of sexual harassment just because he is a boss.
And yet there are companies with many times more employees than that who doesn't have this problem.
At some point, you have to start wondering what you're doing wrong. These things don't just happen out of the blue.
The company I currently work at has over 40000 employees. I certainly don't know every one of them (or even 1% of them), and I'm sure there's plenty of assholes amongst that number of people. But there's no systematic issues, because problems that pop up gets dealt with instead of shoved under the carpet.
If you are at the top and you have some asshole employees, that's on them. But when you have a systematic issue across your entire work environment, that's on you, because you've allowed it to happen. You've fostered an environment where this is allowed to happen, and you either did it maliciously, or through sheer incompetence. Neither gets you off the hook
On August 02 2021 04:15 Timebon3s wrote: I work with a lot of other people, and a lot of shit goes down that the bosses can't possibly be aware of. Imagine having 9000 employees. Yeah, it's his job to know these things but ffs he is not guilty of sexual harassment just because he is a boss.
Can you point me to the posts that are accusing Morhaime of sexual harassment? The only things I've seen being stated in this thread and elsewhere is that Morhaime was aware of the harassment and chose not to do anything. While not a crime(or maybe it is if he is the boss and the one accused is his friend and colleage?) it is still extremely unethical and would take him down a peg or two on the 'what a great nice guy' pedestal - myself included btw, I used to think Morhaime was awesome and a standup guy who was just trying to navigate through Activision's bullshit.
Exactly my sentiment. I never said Mike was guilty of any sexual assault or harassment, in fact I've made the contrary quite clear, but I did illustrate why he is still part of the problem for being all buddy-buddy with the guys who were doing the harassing and looking the other way, despite multiple women having the guts to tell him about what they went through and him being close enough to take action at pretty much every instance. He is not innocent in the larger picture, and he definitely is not part of the solution if he's part of the original problem.
We need to be just as ready to talk about why Mike's behavior was problematic as we are to roast guys like Alex Afrasiabi for their outright predatory behavior.
On August 02 2021 04:15 Timebon3s wrote: I work with a lot of other people, and a lot of shit goes down that the bosses can't possibly be aware of. Imagine having 9000 employees. Yeah, it's his job to know these things but ffs he is not guilty of sexual harassment just because he is a boss.
And yet there are companies with many times more employees than that who doesn't have this problem.
At some point, you have to start wondering what you're doing wrong. These things don't just happen out of the blue.
The company I currently work at has over 40000 employees. I certainly don't know every one of them (or even 1% of them), and I'm sure there's plenty of assholes amongst that number of people. But there's no systematic issues, because problems that pop up gets dealt with instead of shoved under the carpet.
If you are at the top and you have some asshole employees, that's on them. But when you have a systematic issue across your entire work environment, that's on you, because you've allowed it to happen. You've fostered an environment where this is allowed to happen, and you either did it maliciously, or through sheer incompetence. Neither gets you off the hook
The fact that shit can happen without manager's awareness is one thing. But whether company has a mechanism that allows employee to raise the issue in some way without going through "proper" channels that might be part of the problem is another. And the latter is not THAT complicated.
This situation is god-awful but I was not expecting it to be "ActiBlizz hired war criminals as C-suite executives" awful. Nothing can change at this company fast enough.
Yeah, its very weird how these government people wind up in the fuckin' games industry of all places, but also its not weird at all given I'm sure being allowed into positions like these is why they were in their governmental positions to begin with.
Weird that it winds up being the games industry though.
Whats probably more immediately alarming to me is the union-busting firm they hired though, same one Amazon uses, and I can't imagine ActiBlizz's intentions for hiring them are primarily to do with fixing their sexual harassment issues.
ActiBlizz started cancelling it's all-hands-on-deck-meetings around when the announcement of them hiring the law firm, shifting to smaller scale discussions and directing employees to share concerns individually.
Reads to me like they're trying to keep people from collectively talking about the issues at hand and any possible unionization by keeping any everything at a smaller or individualized scale.
ActiBlizz is going to go down the absolute shitter if the union-busting tactics work, theres been speculation that Blizzard might switch to a more mobile game focus if big tent poles like WoW aren't raking it in enough, and uh, given one of the biggest PR fuckups was them announcing a mobile game, I can't imagine Blizzard's core fanbase sticking it out through just all of the dumb good will draining bullshit that Blizzard's done, from Diablo Immortal, to Blitz Chung, to Warcraft: Refunded, to severe sexual harassment cultural issues. Thats a lot of good will to set on fire in the time frame they've managed it.
EDIT: Wait, of course, Activision makes Call of Duty, that fuckin' explains why Republican administration officials are involved with Activision, thats so fuckin obvious...
On August 02 2021 17:07 plasmidghost wrote: This situation is god-awful but I was not expecting it to be "ActiBlizz hired war criminals as C-suite executives" awful. Nothing can change at this company fast enough.
On August 02 2021 17:07 plasmidghost wrote: This situation is god-awful but I was not expecting it to be "ActiBlizz hired war criminals as C-suite executives" awful. Nothing can change at this company fast enough.
Jesus fuck. I had an idea it was bad, but this is next level bad
If anyone is wondering why we say "It starts at the top", this is what we mean. Whenever systematic issues like these pop up, the problem is ALWAYS at the top. Shit always drips down. You don't get a company full of systematic discrimination and misogyny without the rotten apples at the top laying down the groundwork for it to be possible in the first place
On August 02 2021 03:09 Excludos wrote: What if I twist the argument a little bit for you guys:
If Mike Morhaime didn't know about what was going on within his own company, does that really mean he's off the hook? His job was literally to know about these things (among much more, of course), and not knowing about them meant he did such a terrible job it borders on negligence. He actively ran a company which fostered this kind of environment, and not knowing about it isn't necessarily a valid excuse.
To me, he's guilty either way, whether he knew about it or not. The question is only on whether it was due to malice or incompetence
He's not off the hook, it's his company, this was happening, knowingly or not, under his watch.
The question is, how liable is he? That's a legal term, and that has VERY specific qualifications that it's up to the court to figure out.
Far as I'm concerned. Since Blizzard is now (and has been for at least 2 decades) a publically traded company. Liability falls to the brand itself before it falls to the individuals in said company if they weren't the actual people creating the problems. I'm not a lawyer though so maybe (probably) I'm wrong about that.
People can crucify Mike however much they want to on social media. As far as this lawsuit goes, I sincerely doubt he will be held personally liable for much. I do hope the victims get a nice settlement out of this, but I personally think that will come from the money of the publically traded lable rather than specific individuals that do not meet the criteria I mentioned already. That's IF this lawsuit is successful. Again I'm no law expert, so I can't even guarantee that it will be.
On August 02 2021 17:07 plasmidghost wrote: This situation is god-awful but I was not expecting it to be "ActiBlizz hired war criminals as C-suite executives" awful. Nothing can change at this company fast enough.
Huge, long list of people that SHOULD go, but I very highly doubt we'll see more than JAB tbh. In my fairy tale world almost every C-suite executive from Kotick downwards would be flushed down the toilet, though.
On August 03 2021 22:07 Zambrah wrote: Huge, long list of people that SHOULD go, but I very highly doubt we'll see more than JAB tbh. In my fairy tale world almost every C-suite executive from Kotick downwards would be flushed down the toilet, though.
I dunno, in an ideal world perhaps.
There’s plenty of standard corporate shit types that have presided over the decline of an institution whose value to others they don’t, and perhaps can’t comprehend.
I’d certainly rather this business, and businesses in general be less dominated by such types and sweeping changes be wrought.
On the other hand I think there’s a perhaps dangerous conflation of the decline of Blizzard due to the increasingly shortsighted chasing of the bottom line for shareholders, and the work environment and cultural problems within.
The former sucks for gamers, because they aren’t gamers, they’re business people and want to get short term returns even at the detriment of the products and the company’s reputation.
The latter, well the problem is that they are gamers and brought the worst of the misogyny in ‘gaming culture’ into the workplace and imposed it on others who weren’t comfortable with it.
As much as I agreed that Acti-Blizzes prior missteps were due to corporate types, the call that those missteps could be fixed if the company was run by people who love games again, well this latest debacle IS those creatives, almost exclusively as far as I can tell.
Bobby Kotick is a ruthless arsehole, and the archetypal ‘price of everything, value of nothing’ kind of guy. But last I checked he’s not running his business like a frat house.
I mean, ActiBlizz IS Bobby Kotick's business, given how much money these executives make, and given they are in leadership roles, they have responsibility for not taking action. Its not that every executive was directly contributing to the frat house sexual harassment bullshit, but if you're going to be in a leadership role raking in grotesque sums of money you better be prepared to take responsibility when the company you run turns out to be run like shit.
Im not saying anything about the quality of games being made, thats a significantly more complicated question to track, I'm frustratedly resigned to accepting that video games are going to slowly become experiences dedicated to getting whales to spew money at companies, and I do hate it, but I don't strictly think that means executives have to be fired for.
Letting your company cause someone to commit suicide on a business trip though? Thats not something that just stays quiet in the lower levels of the company, thats big serious news that these executives will hear about.
Leadership should involve taking responsibility when what you're leading is a colossal sexual harassing frat house that was allowed to fester for a very long time.
Bobby Kotick may not run the company like a frat house, but I think knowing what we've learned about the board of executives he probably laughed when the sexual assault allegations came out. The "Hold my Beer" meme seems particularly apt.
Describing a May 2007 meeting with Abu-Assal and Cove’s chief financial officer, the arbitrator wrote that “Mr. Kotick wanted to destroy the other side and not to pay Ms. Madvig anything.... Mr. Kotick realized this was not a good business proposition, but said ‘that he was worth one-half billion dollars and he didn’t mind spending some of it on attorneys’ fees.’”
Man, this makes me want to go back and find some of his more infamous horrible quotes, dude can read like a Captain Planet villain from the outside.
On August 03 2021 22:39 Zambrah wrote: I mean, ActiBlizz IS Bobby Kotick's business, given how much money these executives make, and given they are in leadership roles, they have responsibility for not taking action. Its not that every executive was directly contributing to the frat house sexual harassment bullshit, but if you're going to be in a leadership role raking in grotesque sums of money you better be prepared to take responsibility when the company you run turns out to be run like shit.
Im not saying anything about the quality of games being made, thats a significantly more complicated question to track, I'm frustratedly resigned to accepting that video games are going to slowly become experiences dedicated to getting whales to spew money at companies, and I do hate it, but I don't strictly think that means executives have to be fired for.
Letting your company cause someone to commit suicide on a business trip though? Thats not something that just stays quiet in the lower levels of the company, thats big serious news that these executives will hear about.
Leadership should involve taking responsibility when what you're leading is a colossal sexual harassing frat house that was allowed to fester for a very long time.
Just what I’m noticing from comment threads, especially on Twitter people seem to be jumping on Kotick, who I think probably operates at a pretty high level of abstraction from these goings-on.
Do I think corporate responsibility should include him? Absolutely.
Not an accusation I’m levelling at you at all man by the way, but I’m getting a rather pungent whiff of ‘we finally have a weapon to use against Kotick for ruining our games’ attitude to this in many quarters, rather than genuine concern for the culture and the victims of said culture.
I think they’re pretty separate things and the unpalatable aspect is that people who were probably Gamergaters are concern trolling to try to get leverage and try to revert some of ActiBlizz’s general movements.
Yeah, Kotick is a unique villain who attracts a unique amount of general online ire, and I'm not surprised people are jumping at the bit to see him ousted for literally any reason. I mean, the man is famous for saying,
“The goal that I had in bringing a lot of the packaged goods folks into Activision about 10 years ago was to take all the fun out of making video games.”
Thats the kind of thing you would have a hard time writing into a TV show because of how unbelievably comic book villain it is lol.
Yves Guillemot of Ubisoft would probably have faced more heat as an enabler of Ubisoft's sexual harassment problems if he had a big mouth that occasionally diarrhea'ed out gems like Kotick does.
Andrew Wilson too, for that matter, although EA has seemed to be pretty clean of big sexual harassment scandals, and from what I've heard they're actually pretty good as it goes for not accepting sexual harassment.
Having a man and a woman share the job previously done by one person is an odd choice. I feel like if the board felt the woman was capable they’d have given it to her alone. Given the context of institutional sexism and harassment I can’t help but wonder if she’s there to give the appearance of listening to the complaints while her co-president was the board’s first choice.
Jen Oneal's had enough leadership responsibilities previously that it's not unreasonable to think she could've done the job alone. It may make sense to have a dual leadership when there is not a smooth handover though, as usually succession planning is done months in advance, with plenty of time to learn the ropes.
It's going to take months to years before you see if there's going to be any real change. The company being in the news as much as it has should have stopped much of the overt behaviours, but the off the cuff/watercooler culture will remain for some time.
Funny they picked Mike Ybarra given he was in charge of the Battlenet team which is one of the teams with the most aggressive sexual harassment problems at Blizzard lol
On August 04 2021 08:12 Zambrah wrote: Funny they picked Mike Ybarra given he was in charge of the Battlenet team which is one of the teams with the most aggressive sexual harassment problems at Blizzard lol
i finally get why the report button doesn't work on bnet..
On August 03 2021 22:59 Zambrah wrote: Yeah, Kotick is a unique villain who attracts a unique amount of general online ire, and I'm not surprised people are jumping at the bit to see him ousted for literally any reason. I mean, the man is famous for saying,
“The goal that I had in bringing a lot of the packaged goods folks into Activision about 10 years ago was to take all the fun out of making video games.”
Thats the kind of thing you would have a hard time writing into a TV show because of how unbelievably comic book villain it is lol.
Yves Guillemot of Ubisoft would probably have faced more heat as an enabler of Ubisoft's sexual harassment problems if he had a big mouth that occasionally diarrhea'ed out gems like Kotick does.
Andrew Wilson too, for that matter, although EA has seemed to be pretty clean of big sexual harassment scandals, and from what I've heard they're actually pretty good as it goes for not accepting sexual harassment.
Well, absolutely I mean from basically all my posts in the Blizzard/Industry thread, I have been rather scathing about Mr Kotick, I don’t particularly want to play Devil’s advocate for him here either.
Just don’t want misconstrued, for want of a better word I just find it gross that facets of the wider gaming community, that obviously has a general problem with misogynistic toxicity are feigning outrage at Blizzard’s own problems with toxicity to pile on because they’re mad the company doesn’t make the games they like anymore.
Not a problem I’m finding in this thread, certainly I get a big whiff of that elsewhere. Perhaps it’s just needless venting but I find it profoundly sad that people start to care about treating women like people when it’s a company that’s otherwise irked them in the headlines for not doing so.
That said, I’m assuming the state have done their due diligence here and much more will be revealed about the inner workings of ActiBlizz as the lawsuit runs its course. For all intents and purposes, at least on a surface level for all the (deserved) flak Activision have got for their way of managing things post merger, and how they’ve clipped Blizzard’s wings (also deserved), this particular problem very much seems a Blizzard problem.
Its not just a Blizzard problem though, we (games media, just everybody really) are treating it like its just a Blizzard problem because thats most of the new news, but the woman who took her own life because of her sexual harassment wasn't Blizzard, thats said to be Activision publishing. The people who would dick around all day playing Call of Duty while they made women do their work wasn't Blizzard, thats said to be Treyarch.
Its not a unique failing of Blizzard in this case, its very much a problem through all of ActiBlizz, even if Blizzard has a uniquely dense concentration of fuckery going on.
Oh man, ActiBlizz is looking real union-y right now and it's getting me a little hyped.
The ABK Worker's Alliance sent a letter to Kotick and the executive leadership team outlining some problems, a big one being the choice of hiring the law firm WilmerHale, the same law firm Amazon hires to bust unions. They also ask that their listed demands be actually addressed, since no ActiBlizz communications has really addressed their list of demands.
They confirm that since hiring WilmerHale they've noticed ActiBlizz is limiting their freedom of association, almost assuredly in order to stem the tide of worker organization.
Lots of other conflict of interest-y issues with WilmerHale and ActiBlizz that makes them an obviously shit choice meant more to bust unions than solve any serious sexual harassment issues too!
Its very heartening to see this though, we may be seeing a proto-union being formed before our very eyes! As much bullshit as Blizzard has done to sink it's reputation and hurt its employees if its going to keep existing as the studio I loved then I think that a proper employee union is going to go such a long ways towards real actual improvement.
To CEO Bobby Kotick and the Activision Blizzard executive leadership team,
We are The ABK Workers Alliance, an organized group of current Activision Blizzard, Inc. employees committed to defending our right to a safe and equitable workplace. That right remains endangered as the stories of abuse and mistreatment continue to grow in scope, and new accounts of harassment perpetrated by current Activision Blizzard employees have continued to emerge since the publication of the DFEH’s lawsuit.
Last week, we took collective action to demand better working conditions for women and other marginalized groups at Activision Blizzard King (ABK) by writing an open letter signed by more than 3,000 current employees. We organized the #ActiBlizzWalkout at Blizzard Entertainment’s Irvine headquarters where more than 500 workers walked out and hundreds more participated virtually around the world.
Our request for action crosses studio lines, including workers from Activision, Beenox, Blizzard Entertainment, High Moon Studios, Infinity Ward, King, Sledgehammer Games, Raven Software, and Vicarious Visions. Our goal is for the executive leadership team to address their response to the California DFEH lawsuit, acknowledge the reality of working conditions across our organization, and commit to meaningful change at Activision Blizzard.
We communicated a list of four demands aimed at protecting our most vulnerable workers. These are: (1) an end to forced arbitration in employment agreements, (2) the adoption of inclusive recruitment and hiring practices, (3) increases in pay transparency through compensation metrics, and (4) an audit of ABK policies and practices to be performed by a neutral third-party. Importantly, we demanded that this third party be selected by an employee-led Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion task force.
In response to our demands, you wrote a letter to employees expressing a commitment to doing a better job of listening. You said you would do everything possible to work with employees in improving our workplace. And yet, the solutions you proposed in that letter did not meaningfully address our requests. You ignored our call for an end to mandatory arbitration. You did not commit to adopting inclusive recruitment and hiring practices. You made no comment on pay transparency.
One of our demands, a third-party audit of ABK practices and policies, was ostensibly addressed by your decision to hire WilmerHale to conduct an internal review. While we commend the idea of hiring a third-party firm to perform an internal review, The ABK Workers Alliance cannot support the choice of WilmerHale as an impartial reviewer.
We reject the selection of WilmerHale for the following reasons:
● WilmerHale’s pre-existing relationships with Activision Blizzard and its executives create an unacceptable conflict of interest.
○ Activision Blizzard has already been a client of WilmerHale, who you used to dispute the Diverse Candidate Search Policy proposed by the AFL-CIO Reserve Fund and UAW Retiree Medical Benefits Trust [1] earlier in 2021.
○ Frances Townsend is known to have relationships with multiple partners at WilmerHale, including former FBI Director Robert Mueller [2].
● WilmerHale has a history of discouraging workers’ rights and collective action.
○ WilmerHale states on their public website that their services include “advising on union awareness and avoidance” [3].
○ WilmerHale used anti-collective action tactics in their work with Amazon & Uber [4].
○ In media portrayals, WilmerHale is regularly referred to as a “Union Busting Firm” [5, 6, 7]. We are already seeing the effects of this ideology in actions that leadership has taken to restrict our freedom of association since last week, including reducing the size of listening sessions and limiting access to those sessions.
● The WilmerHale partner leading this investigation, Stephanie Avakian, specializes in protecting the wealthy and powerful.
○ WilmerHale outlined Avakian’s work as: “...counseling and defending financial institutions, public and private companies, hedge funds, accounting firms, investment advisors, boards, corporate executives, and individuals facing regulatory and criminal investigations and litigation with the government [8].”
○ In Stephanie’s speech highlighting her successes with the SEC, all of her significant examples included achievements in favor of investors, retail clients, and customers, but does not once mention employees or laborers [9]. We need legal representation that centers on the concerns of our current employees, rather than investors.
We call on you and your executive leadership team to do better, and to fully address our list of demands. We will not abandon our cause. Our ranks continue to grow across multiple Activision Blizzard studios. While there are structural problems that only you can address, we are already taking steps to improve our workplace through a number of employee-driven initiatives:
● Worker-to-Worker Mentorship: We are building a mentorship program where workers can seek career advice, support, and sponsorship from a network of colleagues in a safe external channel outside company communication networks.
● Open Listening Sessions: We will host listening sessions that will be recorded and disseminated across the organization to facilitate ongoing conversation, education, and emotional support for employees.
● Community Meetings: We will facilitate monthly employee meetings, in a secure external channel, to discuss our concerns, desires, and progress toward achieving our goals. All current ABK employees are welcome to participate in these conversations.
As these actions show, we love our studios and care deeply for our colleagues. We share your expressed unwavering commitment to improving our company together.
We are doing what we can, and we call on you to do what we cannot.
The lawsuit, filed in California's Central District and brought by the Los Angeles-based Rosen Law Firm, alleges that Activision Blizzard failed to properly inform shareholders about the two-year investigation and is now seeking appropriate damages for those who have recently acquired Activision Blizzard stock.
...
The lawsuit was filed by plaintiff Gary Cheng, who purchased Activision Blizzard shares sometime in the last five years. The lawsuit names Bobby Kotick, as well as current Activision Blizzard chief financial officer Dennis Durkin and former chief financial officer Spencer Neumann, as defendants. A spokesperson for Activision Blizzard declined to comment when contacted by GameSpot.
Its one thing when employees are upset at you, you can handwave that away, shareholders though? Thats going to make the higher ups actually give a shit.
On August 04 2021 03:22 KelianQatar wrote: It is a shame that Blizzard isn't in the news for more positive stuff.
if Blizzard makes some good games this will all be forgotten.
Randy Pitchford's criminal behaviour and other idiocy got forgotten once Gearbox Publishing ... published a few good games. Then, once Borderlands3 was announced no one cared about Randy's shenanigans. So few people care so little that at this point Pitchford is running around picking fights with various blue check mark "gaming journalists" on Twitter. LOL.
This phenomenon isn't just a gaming industry thing. It happens in other entertainment sectors with stuff 1000X worse than anything going on at Blizzard.
Blizzard wont be making any good games any time soon. They will need a titanic shift in priorities towards actually making good games and the first knee-jerk reactions from this scandal are just pushing the company into a downward spiral.
I predict within two years Activision will wipe Blizzard off the sign at the entrance.
Im wondering if Activision people are getting the boot or if they're going to try and preserve Activision's abusers by using Blizzard's abusers as the sacrificial lamb.
Glad to see Blizzard getting fairly cleaned out but Activision has plenty of other dirt to deal with elsewhere.
On August 04 2021 04:07 KwarK wrote: Having a man and a woman share the job previously done by one person is an odd choice. I feel like if the board felt the woman was capable they’d have given it to her alone. Given the context of institutional sexism and harassment I can’t help but wonder if she’s there to give the appearance of listening to the complaints while her co-president was the board’s first choice.
That's exactly what's going on, I'm surprised that wasn't obvious to everyone lol.
On August 04 2021 04:07 KwarK wrote: Having a man and a woman share the job previously done by one person is an odd choice. I feel like if the board felt the woman was capable they’d have given it to her alone. Given the context of institutional sexism and harassment I can’t help but wonder if she’s there to give the appearance of listening to the complaints while her co-president was the board’s first choice.
That's exactly what's going on, I'm surprised that wasn't obvious to everyone lol.
More than that, it likely gives Kotick more control over the operation at Blizzard. The title has been downgraded twice when replacing leadership.
Yeah, Blizzard is likely not going to be seeing any real autonomy any more. Could be good or could be bad, frankly Blizzard's been doing a shit job, partly reflective of Activision's influence a la WarCraft III: Refunded and it's bottom of the barrel budgeting issues due to not being a billion dollar project, and then theres stuff thats reflective of plain Blizzard, World of Warcraft has been a shit show of mediocrity for two expansions now and its not reasons that seem like Activision bean counter types pushing down on them.
Could wind up seeing Blizzard become a mobile studio looking for more avenues to drain the money from whales as is the predominant money making scheme for games these days, could also potentially see stuff like World of Warcraft get better if they're not as insulated by that layer of Blizzard autonomy.
Probably see more microtransaction and mobile stuff no matter what though.
On August 01 2021 06:21 NewSunshine wrote:the behavior that prompted this one had been going on basically since Blizzard's inception, so there's no way he didn't know what was going on.
What behaviour? Who were the female employees when Morhaime, Adham, and Pierce started the company ? looking at old photos it appeared there were zero female employees. Bob Fitch brought his newborn baby to work when he was working on SC1. Hard to envision Fitch bringing his new wife and newborn around a work place with sexual harassment.
Blizzard has 9000 employees. It is very rare for any group of 9000 to have zero total idiots. As many Americans have criminal records as college diplomas. On top of that, there are lots of Americans who are criminals without having a criminal record. I fully expect any company of 9000 people to employ a few criminals in their group.
The video game industry has been super shadey for 40+ years. Same shit... different decade.
I'm really not interested in your excuses. Blizzard leadership has been shown to be almost exclusively shit human beings who treat women like shit. Don't enter the conversation with "but that's just how it is". It's not a good look.
no excuses. just facts. you can whine about the facts of reality all you want. When you employ many thousands of people you'll have some criminals in that mix engaged in some bad criminal activity.
ATVI employs 9,500 people. Disney employs ~50,000. You're going to some criminals in that mix.
maybe when i was very young and had very little life experience criminals working at giant entertainment companies would've shocked me. not now, its just how it is man.
On August 01 2021 22:20 NewSunshine wrote: Also, thank you for correcting the record and pointing out that Blizzard had 0 female employees in the very beginning. I'm not sure it makes the point you think it does, but you do you.
LOL, so i guess 2 or 3 guys getting together to start a company with zero resources is evil. so you have conceded your assertion that there was harassment at the inception of the company in incorrect. Let's just leave it at that.
Jimmy, you're making excuses for this shit because you're trying to hand wave it, normalize it, and move on. You're still doing it. No, we can't be perfect, but we can at least call out sexual harassment and abuse as unacceptable and fucking try, instead of throwing our hands up and saying boys will be boys. Get out of here with that shit.
"How could Blizzard possibly address predatory behavior when they have 9000 employees" is an excuse. It's the leadership doing it, bro, it's staring them in the face. It trickled down because they set the example that it was ok to be a sexual predator on their watch.
And if you're going to strawman my post as only referring to literally the beginning of the company and nothing that happened afterward, just so you can get one up on something I never said, please just stop replying to me altogether. This isn't about winning stupid internet points.
Maybe they shouldnt elevate known sexual harassers to leadership positions, your "well theres bound to be bad people, so its not a big deal that a massive portion of Blizzard's leadership was engaged in utterly unacceptable behavior is asinine.
Not like this was some issue with exclusively rank and file people, these are people with tenure, and with known issues with sexual harassment staying with the company for a long time bred within a horrible company culture.
Its not as easily dismissed as, "every big company will have some scumbags in it."
Who is arguing that any large company should, somehow manage to have no employees on the books that at some point engage in criminality?
Such an ask would be borderline if not outright impossible.
Engaging in such behaviour on the clock, with those tasked with preventing it turning a blind eye? Absolutely manageable and desirable to do.
‘That’s how it is’, regardless of the morality only holds as long as well, ‘how it is’. I somewhat doubt even a case of this magnitude and visibility that norms will shift overnight, but the general tide is gradually shifting.
Hopefully people can adjust to the unreasonable demands of ‘not treating people terribly’ at least as well as people put up with shitty behaviour for decades.
Ybarra apparently is a big WoW addict, dudes got all M+ 20s done, so its hard to say there isnt SOME amount of experience and passion with Blizzard games from at least him, lol
On August 01 2021 06:21 NewSunshine wrote:the behavior that prompted this one had been going on basically since Blizzard's inception, so there's no way he didn't know what was going on.
What behaviour? Who were the female employees when Morhaime, Adham, and Pierce started the company ? looking at old photos it appeared there were zero female employees. Bob Fitch brought his newborn baby to work when he was working on SC1. Hard to envision Fitch bringing his new wife and newborn around a work place with sexual harassment.
Blizzard has 9000 employees. It is very rare for any group of 9000 to have zero total idiots. As many Americans have criminal records as college diplomas. On top of that, there are lots of Americans who are criminals without having a criminal record. I fully expect any company of 9000 people to employ a few criminals in their group.
The video game industry has been super shadey for 40+ years. Same shit... different decade.
I'm really not interested in your excuses. Blizzard leadership has been shown to be almost exclusively shit human beings who treat women like shit. Don't enter the conversation with "but that's just how it is". It's not a good look.
no excuses. just facts. you can whine about the facts of reality all you want. When you employ many thousands of people you'll have some criminals in that mix engaged in some bad criminal activity.
ATVI employs 9,500 people. Disney employs ~50,000. You're going to some criminals in that mix.
maybe when i was very young and had very little life experience criminals working at giant entertainment companies would've shocked me. not now, its just how it is man.
On August 01 2021 22:20 NewSunshine wrote: Also, thank you for correcting the record and pointing out that Blizzard had 0 female employees in the very beginning. I'm not sure it makes the point you think it does, but you do you.
LOL, so i guess 2 or 3 guys getting together to start a company with zero resources is evil. so you have conceded your assertion that there was harassment at the inception of the company in incorrect. Let's just leave it at that.
what an interesting post that has no connection to what its employees are demanding of blizz.
“These are: (1) an end to forced arbitration in employment agreements, (2) the adoption of inclusive recruitment and hiring practices, (3) increases in pay transparency through compensation metrics, and (4) an audit of ABK policies and practices to be performed by a neutral third-party. Importantly, we demanded that this third party be selected by an employee-led Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion task force.”
This is what organised employees want of blizz. That SURELY entails getting rid of toxic leadership.
And you can sport that defeatist attitude as long as you want. People are worth being treated as human beings with dignity and as such can easily demand that from their employer. You don't get to tell them that life just sucks for them because some asshole is gonna be an asshole.
I just remembered I used to play “strip Jessica Alba” in UMS brood war customs. I’m part of the problem aren’t I? Also I was 12 at the time. I’m glad stuff like that now wouldn’t be so desensitized to the community.
On August 06 2021 01:59 Zambrah wrote: Ybarra apparently is a big WoW addict, dudes got all M+ 20s done, so its hard to say there isnt SOME amount of experience and passion with Blizzard games from at least him, lol
He's in the top small fraction of 1% of the playerbase, kinda like being low GM on SC2.
On August 06 2021 02:14 Artisreal wrote: what an interesting post that has no connection to what its employees are demanding of blizz.
i think they are demanding things from ATVI and not from Blizzard. I do not think Blizzard is autonomous enough to be able to agree with the demands. Also, i'm not trying to connect it with what employees are demanding of blizz.
A nice condensation of major beats of the issues and some info on why Blizzard had developed the kind of culture it did. Some new info too, seems like a former probable successor to Morhaime got the boot for something like sleeping with his assistant, Activision making working at Blizzard shittier via tighter deadlines and making people less likely to speak up about problems lest they draw budget cuts to their project.
Shortly afterward, they got a supposed explanation during a large staff meeting. Derek Ingalls, now head of the technology department, was asked why his former boss had left. Ingalls told a brief story that concluded with a strange piece of advice: “Don’t sleep with your assistant. But if you’re going to sleep with your assistant, don’t stop.”
“It is absolutely a rock-star mentality, and it touched almost every aspect of Blizzard culture,” said Christina Mikkonen, who worked at the company from 2013 to 2019. “These developers were untouchable. Not only could they tell you how to do your job, but they had so much power, they could do whatever they want in line of sight with their other powerful friends.”
But people who worked for Morhaime said his warm leadership style could be a blind spot. Some said he was shielded from the misbehavior or that he gave offenders the benefit of the doubt, extended them too many chances or let them walk over him. In a private Facebook post reviewed by Bloomberg, a former assistant to Morhaime wrote that she had informed him and other executives about rampant misconduct.
Technology staff sometimes got drunk during work hours or showed up hungover; they vomited in trash cans and held after-work hazing rituals where new recruits were expected to take shots of liquor every half hour, former employees recalled. Finally, in 2019, Blizzard enacted a “two-drink maximum” at after-work functions to stave off some of the problems and cut down on drunk driving.
Some Blizzard staff refer to Activision as the Eye of Sauron. With budget cuts constantly looming, managers of each department have jockeyed for resources. As a result, some are reluctant to report internal problems and risk drawing unwanted attention to their teams from corporate overlords, current employees said.
On August 07 2021 03:37 Zambrah wrote: Schreier has a new article,
A nice condensation of major beats of the issues and some info on why Blizzard had developed the kind of culture it did. Some new info too, seems like a former probable successor to Morhaime got the boot for something like sleeping with his assistant, Activision making working at Blizzard shittier via tighter deadlines and making people less likely to speak up about problems lest they draw budget cuts to their project.
Yeah, it looks like a combination of abusive fucks, weak kneed leaders, superstardom in your field and later on exacerbated an already bad culture into a bad culture with the brutal negative aspects of working in AAA games at large.
Read the article, what I find dubious is this constant mentioning of men-to-women ratio. I don't think this is a contributing factor, this is just a feature of the industry. Every IT company has huge numerical predominance of men, this just the way it is. In my company, the ratio is something like 9-1, but we don't have frat party culture, drinking at work. If the ratio was the cause of abuse, then the entire industry would look like Blizzard, but it does not.
On August 07 2021 04:19 Silvanel wrote: Read the article, what I find dubious is this constant mentioning of men-to-women ratio. I don't think this is a contributing factor, this is just a feature of the industry. Every IT company has huge numerical predominance of men, this just the way it is. In my company, the ratio is something like 9-1, but we don't have frat party culture, drinking at work. If the ratio was the cause of abuse, then the entire industry would look like Blizzard, but it does not.
Yeah it is nonsense. Every technology company is in the same boat.
On August 07 2021 04:19 Silvanel wrote: Read the article, what I find dubious is this constant mentioning of men-to-women ratio. I don't think this is a contributing factor, this is just a feature of the industry. Every IT company has huge numerical predominance of men, this just the way it is. In my company, the ratio is something like 9-1, but we don't have frat party culture, drinking at work. If the ratio was the cause of abuse, then the entire industry would look like Blizzard, but it does not.
Because there's a major difference between most other IT companies, which have better working conditions, rights, pay and reputation, and the games industry, which just cannot stop with the abuse of working conditions, rights, pay and reputation for sexual harassment. Stories of this stuff is just rampant through the games industry, people I know have left the games industry for the IT service industry because of how shitty everything is. They're basically different industries despite both being theoretically IT.
The gender issue and the type of person the games industry attracts into their workforce go hand in hand. I mean how many IT companies have a Playboy spread of a female video game character framed in their office where they work? I wouldn't say many but apparently CD Projekt Red thinks that's a good idea and its really doubtful that anyone but an emotionally childish and socially awkward male would think that.
On August 07 2021 04:19 Silvanel wrote: Read the article, what I find dubious is this constant mentioning of men-to-women ratio. I don't think this is a contributing factor, this is just a feature of the industry. Every IT company has huge numerical predominance of men, this just the way it is. In my company, the ratio is something like 9-1, but we don't have frat party culture, drinking at work. If the ratio was the cause of abuse, then the entire industry would look like Blizzard, but it does not.
Because there's a major difference between most other IT companies, which have better working conditions, rights, pay and reputation, and the games industry, which just cannot stop with the abuse of working conditions, rights, pay and reputation for sexual harassment. Stories of this stuff is just rampant through the games industry, people I know have left the games industry for the IT service industry because of how shitty everything is. They're basically different industries despite both being theoretically IT.
The gender issue and the type of person the games industry attracts into their workforce go hand in hand. I mean how many IT companies have a Playboy spread of a female video game character framed in their office where they work? I wouldn't say many but apparently CD Projekt Red thinks that's a good idea and its really doubtful that anyone but an emotionally childish and socially awkward male would think that.
Not sure what any of what you just said relates to anything the guy you just replied to.
Nothing you stated counters any notion that there just aren't that many women to go around in the IT industry, and the fact that Blizzard has a low women to men ratio is not a symptom or cause of their problems, as the rest of the IT industry works fine with the exact same problem
On August 07 2021 04:19 Silvanel wrote: Read the article, what I find dubious is this constant mentioning of men-to-women ratio. I don't think this is a contributing factor, this is just a feature of the industry. Every IT company has huge numerical predominance of men, this just the way it is. In my company, the ratio is something like 9-1, but we don't have frat party culture, drinking at work. If the ratio was the cause of abuse, then the entire industry would look like Blizzard, but it does not.
Because there's a major difference between most other IT companies, which have better working conditions, rights, pay and reputation, and the games industry, which just cannot stop with the abuse of working conditions, rights, pay and reputation for sexual harassment. Stories of this stuff is just rampant through the games industry, people I know have left the games industry for the IT service industry because of how shitty everything is. They're basically different industries despite both being theoretically IT.
The gender issue and the type of person the games industry attracts into their workforce go hand in hand. I mean how many IT companies have a Playboy spread of a female video game character framed in their office where they work? I wouldn't say many but apparently CD Projekt Red thinks that's a good idea and its really doubtful that anyone but an emotionally childish and socially awkward male would think that.
Not sure what any of what you just said relates to anything the guy you just replied to.
Nothing you stated counters any notion that there just aren't that many women to go around in the IT industry, and the fact that Blizzard has a low women to men ratio is not a symptom or cause of their problems, as the rest of the IT industry works fine with the exact same problem
I mean it relates pretty heavily no? It’s just an expansion of the prior post, saying much the same things with additional detail, I don’t think it was meant as a rebuttal in any way.
The games industry definitely seems to suffer from it being a big hobby and love of those who enter it. Regular IT gigs may be a big ambition of those who go in sure, they’re probably not the logical end point of the dreams of childhood, just sensible, good careers that folks may enjoy and be good at.
Working in games? ‘Hey I’ve loved games since I was 6, have super fond memories, wow it would be such a privilege to realise my dream!’ You’re following your dream, you’ll put up with all kinds of shit you wouldn’t otherwise do. Be paid less than you could just to work at a company like Blizzard. Put up with crunch periods and working conditions that afflict all, to cultures of harassment that mostly affect women going in.
And at the other end of the pay scale you have people in positions of power who can keep behaving as they did as a 16 year old in Ventrilo with their mates, but within a professional environment.
Not sure how you fix all that, why I’m not paid the big bucks. If some traction can be found sufficient to unionise and have game development treated like a comparable job elsewhere in IT that can’t be a bad thing.
On August 07 2021 04:19 Silvanel wrote: Read the article, what I find dubious is this constant mentioning of men-to-women ratio. I don't think this is a contributing factor, this is just a feature of the industry. Every IT company has huge numerical predominance of men, this just the way it is. In my company, the ratio is something like 9-1, but we don't have frat party culture, drinking at work. If the ratio was the cause of abuse, then the entire industry would look like Blizzard, but it does not.
Because there's a major difference between most other IT companies, which have better working conditions, rights, pay and reputation, and the games industry, which just cannot stop with the abuse of working conditions, rights, pay and reputation for sexual harassment. Stories of this stuff is just rampant through the games industry, people I know have left the games industry for the IT service industry because of how shitty everything is. They're basically different industries despite both being theoretically IT.
The gender issue and the type of person the games industry attracts into their workforce go hand in hand. I mean how many IT companies have a Playboy spread of a female video game character framed in their office where they work? I wouldn't say many but apparently CD Projekt Red thinks that's a good idea and its really doubtful that anyone but an emotionally childish and socially awkward male would think that.
Not sure what any of what you just said relates to anything the guy you just replied to.
Nothing you stated counters any notion that there just aren't that many women to go around in the IT industry, and the fact that Blizzard has a low women to men ratio is not a symptom or cause of their problems, as the rest of the IT industry works fine with the exact same problem
But I would argue that very much the low women to men ratio, especially in higher management, is the exact reason why the games industry is especially toxic towards women that even the IT industry is not. How many reports of completely systematic and intentional sexual harassment and general creepiness from the games industry have surfaced? This isn't like, say, Intel's CEO getting into a consensual affair with a co-worker where the details get pretty grey (eg. power differential can make things get pretty nasty) but actual textbook definitions of frequently occurring rape and sexual harassment. And not just with one company, the reports keep popping up no matter the geographic location.
What office in the 2010s and 2020s would have bare walls except for a large landscape poster of a Playboy spread of your famous female character on display? You wouldn't see that at Google or Microsoft or just about any other professional company because shit is not only awkward but exactly one of those things that a single woman in upper management would tell you to not do because shit makes one gender particularly uncomfortable.
The gender ratio is a problem because the only people who want to work in the games industry are mostly (let's be honest here) nerds. You don't get the exact type of degeneracy in even adjacent fields because they're there to work and not turn it into a socially maladjusted openly misogynistic frathouse run on 4chan grade memes. The gender ratio is really important in cases like this because it forces changes to company culture, which a large chunk is pretty damn misogynistic let us be honest.
On August 07 2021 04:19 Silvanel wrote: Read the article, what I find dubious is this constant mentioning of men-to-women ratio. I don't think this is a contributing factor, this is just a feature of the industry. Every IT company has huge numerical predominance of men, this just the way it is. In my company, the ratio is something like 9-1, but we don't have frat party culture, drinking at work. If the ratio was the cause of abuse, then the entire industry would look like Blizzard, but it does not.
Because there's a major difference between most other IT companies, which have better working conditions, rights, pay and reputation, and the games industry, which just cannot stop with the abuse of working conditions, rights, pay and reputation for sexual harassment. Stories of this stuff is just rampant through the games industry, people I know have left the games industry for the IT service industry because of how shitty everything is. They're basically different industries despite both being theoretically IT.
The gender issue and the type of person the games industry attracts into their workforce go hand in hand. I mean how many IT companies have a Playboy spread of a female video game character framed in their office where they work? I wouldn't say many but apparently CD Projekt Red thinks that's a good idea and its really doubtful that anyone but an emotionally childish and socially awkward male would think that.
Not sure what any of what you just said relates to anything the guy you just replied to.
Nothing you stated counters any notion that there just aren't that many women to go around in the IT industry, and the fact that Blizzard has a low women to men ratio is not a symptom or cause of their problems, as the rest of the IT industry works fine with the exact same problem
I mean it relates pretty heavily no? It’s just an expansion of the prior post, saying much the same things with additional detail, I don’t think it was meant as a rebuttal in any way.
The games industry definitely seems to suffer from it being a big hobby and love of those who enter it. Regular IT gigs may be a big ambition of those who go in sure, they’re probably not the logical end point of the dreams of childhood, just sensible, good careers that folks may enjoy and be good at.
Working in games? ‘Hey I’ve loved games since I was 6, have super fond memories, wow it would be such a privilege to realise my dream!’ You’re following your dream, you’ll put up with all kinds of shit you wouldn’t otherwise do. Be paid less than you could just to work at a company like Blizzard. Put up with crunch periods and working conditions that afflict all, to cultures of harassment that mostly affect women going in.
And at the other end of the pay scale you have people in positions of power who can keep behaving as they did as a 16 year old in Ventrilo with their mates, but within a professional environment.
Not sure how you fix all that, why I’m not paid the big bucks. If some traction can be found sufficient to unionise and have game development treated like a comparable job elsewhere in IT that can’t be a bad thing.
I do actually disagree with the post I responded to. The thing is that the gender ratio issue is probably less of a problem for typical IT sector jobs because the pay and conditions are far more reasonable. This attracts more normal and well adjusted people who just want to work to make a living, which in turn creates a more stable and professional work environment. People go in, do their job, leave their job and get paid. There's people who give up on the games industry to work in that sector because they're sick of the self-sacrifice and general harassment, they don't want the drama and crunching and entry level retail sector wages.
Like you noted, the games industry attracts a certain type of person who is willing to put aside a whole load of personal wellbeing to work on video games. This in turn creates a bit of a power imbalance where a lot of workers want to work on specific games in the industry like it has been for Blizzard for significant length of time (remember: Blizzard paying low has been known for a LONG time) and upper management is willing to exploit that. It doesn't help that a lot of people in the games industry are clearly very emotionally immature and socially maladjusted nerds.
Better gender ratios wouldn't stop the low pay and crunching (you need unions for that) but it would at least probably decrease the incidence of sexual harassment of the degree we see at places like Riot, Activision/Blizzard and Ubisoft where frathouse type culture is commonplace. On the other hand Nintendo, one of the places where there is an active effort to promote women into serious leadership positions, has a generally good reputation of being a fairly decent place for women to work despite being in patriarchal Japan and that really shows in their very broadly appealing software output like Animal Crossing, Mario and Zelda.
The shit conditions of the games industry, the awful gender ratio, frathouse culture and high incidence of sexual harassment and rape reported in so many different studios is something you can't just conveniently separate. They're all related and tied to each other. Like in what workplace with any significant number of women would men feel comfortable telling women that they want to rape them. This is the level of degeneracy we've declined to in the games industry and the exact sort of behavior that would get you beat up if there were more women in the office. I don't think people really understand just how many reports of explicit sociopathy and comical misogyny exists in the games industry.
Stalker that is an excellent post. People can't treat Actiblizz like some kind of isolated problem in an industry that is working fine. These problems keep coming out at company after company and the details show more than anything that the low number of women working in the industry is definitely related to these problems. Imagine doing a 'cubicle crawl' in an office with 50% women. Its not going to happen. Just for context in case anyone wants to deny the problems are industry wide: https://venturebeat.com/2020/06/24/sexual-abuse-allegations-rock-the-game-industry-again/ This from 2020:
The allegations this time have hit every part of the industry: game developers, marketers, publicists, influencers, game journalists, livestreamers, and companies big (Ubisoft) and small.
While many women faced further harassment from anonymous posters on Twitter, this wave of allegations was also marked by an outpouring of supportive comments. They included women who corroborated the stories of women who came out with stories of abuse, which made it harder for the accused men to hide behind denials.
“I stand by you” or “I believe you” are common reactions on many of the posts from survivors. Clearly, as last year’s eruption demonstrated, the survivors sharing their stories took enormous risks because they had to weigh whether the disclosures would lead to backlash. Much of that backlash has happened, but support has been forthcoming as well.
That's after 2018's Riot games incident and then Alec Holowka in 2019.
I think You are kind of contradicting Yourself. Apart from IT there are other industries that have uneven gender ratios, for example mining and heavy manufacturing. There we can clearly see that some places are nice to work in, while other are shitholes. It all comes down to factors You already mentioned: bad management willing to overlook abuse, people willing to put with shit in order to work at their dream place, superstar/frat house mentality, allowing drinking and sexually explicit materials at workplaces. I highly doubt the ratio, if it magically would switch to 50:50 would fix that if other factors remained.
And before You say it, no women are not less abusive than men, the most stark, work related abuse I ever witnessed was women-on-women in 100% women department.
Pigging back a little. I don't understand how they could tolerate sexually explicit materials in the workplace (posters of naked women etc.). This is a huge no-no in every office in Poland. You only see those in workshops or small factories run by independent capital, not thinkable in a corporation. It's something of a class issue, people with university education in Poland won't do that. Like, WTF what were they thinking? What if some external auditor or government official or even guest or supplier comes over? Weren't they concerned about what they would think? Or even their coworkers, I mean I am guy and like most guys I like the sight of pretty women, but I would not be ok with something like that being displayed in a workplace.
On August 07 2021 17:16 Silvanel wrote: I think You are kind of contradicting Yourself. Apart from IT there are other industries that have uneven gender ratios, for example mining and heavy manufacturing. There we can clearly see that some places are nice to work in, while other are shitholes. It all comes down to factors You already mentioned: bad management willing to overlook abuse, people willing to put with shit in order to work at their dream place, superstar/frat house mentality, allowing drinking and sexually explicit materials at workplaces. I highly doubt the ratio, if it magically would switch to 50:50 would fix that if other factors remained.
And before You say it, no women are not less abusive than men, the most stark, work related abuse I ever witnessed was women-on-women in 100% women department.
Pigging back a little. I don't understand how they could tolerate sexually explicit materials in the workplace (posters of naked women etc.). This is a huge no-no in every office in Poland. You only see those in workshops or small factories run by independent capital, not thinkable in a corporation. It's something of a class issue, people with university education in Poland won't do that. Like, WTF what were they thinking? What if some external auditor or government official or even guest or supplier comes over? Weren't they concerned about what they would think? Or even their coworkers, I mean I am guy and like most guys I like the sight of pretty women, but I would not be ok with something like that being displayed in a workplace.
There's massive differences betewen the gaming industry and mining/manufacturing though. For a start, the dominant atmosphere in mining/manufacturing is people worknig their asses off from the beginning of the day to the end of the day. Anyone who helps is a friend and women in those industries tend to get respect for their work. The problems in the gaming industry are partly down to being sat around all day looking at a computer and doing fairly boring work. Of course, that doesn't mean that hiring more women wouldn't do wonders for the 'frat house mentality'. I'll put that in quotes because its better described as a sexually abusive mentality. Like I said before, can you imagine doing a cubicle crawl in an office that's 50% women? You would probably be fired immediately and a black eye or two. The sexually abusive mentality in the games industry is partly an expression of dominance of the men over the women. That dominance goes away when you don't have the numbers.
The office environment differs from company to company. For example, in my office there are no cubicles, there are zones (which are open spaces) and to access each zone You need a reason. So, You can't really do office crawl because You won't be able to access large parts of the building. And if we look past that, I can confidently say, that if some jerk came and try to harass women from our team, we would first see it (because it is open space) and secondly wouldn't allow it. Not to mention that being drunk while in office in Poland usually ends with police being called and contract termination. Unless this is allowed by higher ups, but this is the 'frat house mentality' which is NOK in my book.
I repeat, this is about work culture, about company policies, about what is accepted and what is not. If You see someone being jerk, don't stand around, do something. I am afraid, You, are trying to fix something which is not the cause. I mean, in IT there is generally a lack of qualified people, being a woman is not the obstacle here. We will hire a goat or martian if it can code.
The question you have to ask why this is the company culture all across the gaming industry, no matter the company and geographic location.
This is not a Blizzard problem, this is a Riot problem, an Insomniac problem, an Ubisoft problem, a Naughty Dog problem, an Activision problem, a problem at Obsidian Entertainment, a problem at Rocksteady Studios, etc. All of them, accused of ignoring and allowing a culture of misogyny to foster and leave women feeling vulnerable in the workplace. All different companies, all in different locations, all have the same sort of shit of men being complete degenerates. Not isolated drunk man doing drunk man bullshit but actual degenerates of the highest order than would be beat up by bystanders if they did that shit on the street.
Again: what workplace has a Playboy spread of a video game character on their office walls, what workplace has workers casually telling female co-workers that they want to rape them, what workplace has men walking into breastfeeding areas just to stare at women. This type of story isn't an isolated case at Blizzard, this shit gets reported like every month at a different company.
The gender ratio dictate how they are dealing with the company policy. The old boys club mentality is still a problem in other industries, its just a far bigger problem in the games industry because of the people they attract. And by that I mean socially maladjusted male nerds brought up on internet culture. Again, this is clear in the type of games they make and design. A higher quantity of women at Blizzard wouldn't create character designs like those from early 2000s Blizzard nor belittle people who publicly ask if they could stop with the high heels + bikini armor combination.
All of this ties together, you can't just say "COMPANY POLICY" as if it will solve the problems of having a workforce filled with chuds. Chuds will just hide it better, like Insomniac getting into a heated internal debate on whether or not they needed to give their female character (Rivet) bigger tits and hips to make her look female. Like a former Insomniac worker stated, she doesn't need TITS AND HIPS to look female, it goes against the themes of Rift Apart and she's a fucking space fox so why the fuck is everyone being so creepy. This is the type of base level trash in the industry.
The problem of wideplace abuse of working rights can't be fixed without unions, yes. Women are absolutely capable of workplace harassment and in some cases are especially vicious in how they abuse co-workers, yes. But the problem of rampant misogyny, the thing that most uniquely plagues the gaming industry, can absolutely be handled better with better gender ratios. I need to stress again that I do not think people understand just how rampant this sort of shit is in the games industry. You cannot compare the games industry problems to other industries for a very good reason. It is no surprise that Nintendo of all companies is able to create full priced console games that are very appealing to women because...they actually have a lot of women working as game designers in their company.
The comparison with the normal software sector imo isn't entirely right, game development is a strongly creative industry similarly to the movie industry which also struggles with misogyny. And unlike most software developers most gaming companies don't give a rat's ass about creating a positive inclusive company culture. The industry is underpaid and overworked, the people are likely mostly feeling undervalued and stressed out. So I'm not too surprised the atmosphere is at times toxic and targets minorities at the workplace, although the extend is still baffling.
But I agree that the target audience likely has an influence and that the internet culture likely is part of the problem.
I do agree with Your points about the gaming industry in general, and I do think this is THE source of the problem. Unless we address the problems like people being underpaid, overworked, over stressed, bad management, company prioritizing delivery over well-being of its employees, not much is going to change. That was mine point all along: the IT industry is showing that You can have a safe working environment with uneven gander ratios, that means it is not the cause. Let's address those other problem first.
When I put more thought into it, I also think that people are being too invested emotionally (in game industry) into products they are making. They often can't see it for what it really is, a work of fiction, a product. Part of their job compensation is an emotional payback, the "look what a great game WE made". Which is fine in itself, after all this is the same mechanism that volunteer work uses, but mangers and companies in game industry learned how to abuse it for their gain. Obviously if someone is doing something they love, You can pay them less and stress/exhaust them much more.
The opening arguments podcast did some in depth coverage of the situation legally. (Their most recent episode and one a week or so earlier).
Main highlights:
It sounds like ActiBlizz is pretty screwed, but not 100% screwed. They will 100% try to settle and the prosecutor is likely to do so but on a very harsh sentence (this will be a fine and forced oversight, as how can you jail a company?). They may still take a chance if behavior even more egregious emerges, but the podcast thought that unlikely. Fyi, this means the company will survive. Their current behavior is vast reforms level rather than "disincorporate" level.
There's nothing particularly nefarious about the law firm Activision hired. Are they pieces of shit? Yes, but no moreso than any other large law firm, and they're better than some.
Some individuals are 100% screwed legally, but they're the ones who committed or covered up the acts blatantly. They'll be addressed individually both criminally and civilly in other cases, and we'll see those cases get filed in response to the state case (as they either were asked to hold off by the state or didn't have enough evidence without the filing).
(As a personal aside, it is very unlikely any C level exec other than maybe HR provably covered anything up criminally, ie, beyond a reasonable doubt. The reason for this is that if they had, the state would have accused them by name of doing so and that would have been the headline. They may still be held so civilly, but that's going to be brought by employees most likely. It is still possible, but we will find that out for sure in discovery)
Activision and Atari both have publicly had known sexism issues from their start (the prototypes for the Atari were named after the secretaries with the largest breasts, and Activision's founders worked there during that time period).
The law firm Activision hired is supposedly connected to Activision exec/Republican proponent of torture Fran Townsend, so it should be a massive conflict of interest for Wilmerhale to be the "3rd party" investigating their behavior. When they try to turn around later and claim that they had an internal investigation to clear their name, they're going to be 100% full of shit.
ActiBlizz is also a former client of WilmerHale, they’re going to have the incentive to side with their storied clientele, which is another reason they’re not an acceptable law firm for ActiBlizz to be employing in this circumstance.
And that’s entirely sidestepping the whole union busting thing WilmerHale does which is also a good reason for the ABK Workers Alliance to demand that WilmerHale fuck off.
Yeah they're terrible, but they're just a normal law firm.
This is a normal situation for a huge law firm to be called in. Every single one of the size of WilmerHale has a whole department dedicated to it.
Now, the company could put pressure on WilmerHale to cover stuff up, but it'd be idiotic to do that during a state investigation and would come out super fast (the state of California bringing this is one of the reasons ActiBlizz is so screwed legally. They wouldn't have stepped in without overwhelming evidence already. CA also has some of the strictest and most comprehensive workplace sexual harassment laws in the country ).
As far as scummy and shady connections like the ones you all just listed, that's true of literally every large law firm. If you try to find one without someone who has openly praised John Woo's torture memos then you're just SOL. Same for sketchy connections to the company and GOP pols, especially as it turns out that ActiBlizz is some weird feeder for retired GOP officials.
Basically, so far it does not sound like ActiBlizz hired them to run a cover up based on public actions and statements. They may change their mind, but trying to run an internal coverup is the worst move they could make while under active investigation by the state. (And WilmerHale would probably refuse out of self interest)
probably a reality in many companies we are not aware of. and many others have various other problems that may not be sexually motivated.
suicide numbers are high.
ppl that are surprised by news like this and think this is a 1 company problem are a bit naive in my opinion. but it's probably best not to think about the bad in society, cuz you end up not enjoying life if you're constantly thinking about stuff like that.
On August 10 2021 01:32 KalWarkov wrote: probably a reality in many companies we are not aware of. and many others have various other problems that may not be sexually motivated. suicide numbers are high. ppl that are surprised by news like this and think this is a 1 company problem are a bit naive in my opinion. but it's probably best not to think about the bad in society, cuz you end up not enjoying life if you're constantly thinking about stuff like that.
Boomers have a saying : "Don't Mix Business With Pleasure"
Things are worse at game studios because the lines are blurred between work and play. Everyone I know working at game studios notices a lack of professional distance between different employee//management levels. Also, Publishers and Studios promise giant annual bonuses based on huge sales numbers along with the "fun" of gaming making. This is supposed to replace the money your experience and ability can normally draw. Graduating from a four year software engineering program my two lowest salaried job offers came from game studios. LOL. Listening to these recruiter clowns yammer away while they are offering me 25% less than any one else was fun.
It doesn't take much research to realize its been like this for 45 years. People who buy the cock and bull stories game studio recruiters tell are either a bit naive or want to believe in their dreams becoming a reality as opposed to clearly viewing the reality in front of them.
It has been like this since the dawn of the industry because it is inherent in the making of the product. Its play.. but while you are at work. Mattel even fell prey to this trend. You'd think a company like Mattel, with all its experience designing toys and games before video games, would avoid the pitfalls of the industry. Mattel ran afoul of the Federal Trade Commission with BS promises. The FTCs interference with Mattel compromised the decision making autonomy of "Mattel Electronics".... and Mattel pulled the plug on "Mattel Electronics".
The Video Game Industry is a circus. PT Barnum said it best : "There Is A Sucker Born Every Minute".
On August 10 2021 01:32 KalWarkov wrote: it's probably best not to think about the bad in society, cuz you end up not enjoying life if you're constantly thinking about stuff like that.
it makes me thankful for the top notch people I have around me.
The Shareholders have now joined in. What this means who knows seeing how in the US board talks are private.
SOC Investment Group says that Activision Blizzard's recent promises to improve its culture do not go "nearly far enough to address the deep and widespread issues with equity, inclusion, and human capital management" that the company is facing.
On August 08 2021 17:25 Silvanel wrote: I do agree with Your points about the gaming industry in general, and I do think this is THE source of the problem. Unless we address the problems like people being underpaid, overworked, over stressed, bad management, company prioritizing delivery over well-being of its employees, not much is going to change. That was mine point all along: the IT industry is showing that You can have a safe working environment with uneven gander ratios, that means it is not the cause. Let's address those other problem first.
When I put more thought into it, I also think that people are being too invested emotionally (in game industry) into products they are making. They often can't see it for what it really is, a work of fiction, a product. Part of their job compensation is an emotional payback, the "look what a great game WE made". Which is fine in itself, after all this is the same mechanism that volunteer work uses, but mangers and companies in game industry learned how to abuse it for their gain. Obviously if someone is doing something they love, You can pay them less and stress/exhaust them much more.
I do agree to an extent that better conditions will ultimately improve professionalism in the industry because no one works in the games industry unless they really want to ditch 20% income to work on games.
But gamer/nerd culture is ultimately pretty trash if we’re going to be honest with ourselves. It feels like only yesterday that Teamliquid had honest to god debates on whether or not using “rape” as a descriptor was good or not. It’s one of those things that wouldn’t be an issue if more women were in the community, sort of like how the iPhone bendgate problem wouldn’t be a problem if there were more female designers because they’d have designed a phone that works as expected in someone’s back pocket.
The biggest problem seems to be people brought up on early 2000s/2010s internet culture. The lead designer for Apex, for instance, just got fired because past tweets from the late 2000s surfaced him being a huge 4chan grade chud with shitty comments about women and black people. Granted it seems he’s improved in being less shitty but a lot of nerds absolutely do not unfortunately and see more female involvement as some bizarre threat to their hobbies.
a bunch of "video game journalists" claimed "ATVI's scandal CAUSED a decrease in their stock price". CAUSE and EFFECT are hard to prove. During a similar time period EA and Take2 Interactive had similar declines in their stock price. So, umm , ya.
ATVI stock was $90 before the story broke. Its now over $85 with Forbes calling ATVI undervalued.
On August 11 2021 08:04 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: The Shareholders have now joined in. What this means who knows seeing how in the US board talks are private.
SOC Investment Group says that Activision Blizzard's recent promises to improve its culture do not go "nearly far enough to address the deep and widespread issues with equity, inclusion, and human capital management" that the company is facing.
this activist shareholder group always takes these exact positions. if anything, this kind of yap just provides cover for ATVI execs.
"the usual laundry list of SOC requests..."
Here is a good analysis of this investor group's position.
TL ; DR : SOC saying what they always say. Kotick replies : "i'm sorry your feelings were hurt" the SOC is making demands that will never be met.
ATVI holds the ultimate hammer. Blizzard's leadership is no longer married to California. the UCLA gang that started Blizzard is long gone. If the state of California fucks with ATVI too much then ATVI can threaten to move Blizzard to Texas.
a bunch of "video game journalists" claimed "ATVI's scandal CAUSED a decrease in their stock price". CAUSE and EFFECT are hard to prove. During a similar time period EA and Take2 Interactive had similar declines in their stock price. So, umm , ya.
ATVI stock was $90 before the story broke. Its now over $85 with Forbes calling ATVI undervalued.
On August 11 2021 08:04 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: The Shareholders have now joined in. What this means who knows seeing how in the US board talks are private.
SOC Investment Group says that Activision Blizzard's recent promises to improve its culture do not go "nearly far enough to address the deep and widespread issues with equity, inclusion, and human capital management" that the company is facing.
TL ; DR : SOC saying what they always say. Kotick replies : "i'm sorry your feelings were hurt" the SOC is making demands that will never be met.
ATVI holds the ultimate hammer. Blizzard's leadership is no longer married to California. the UCLA gang that started Blizzard is long gone. If the state of California fucks with ATVI too much then ATVI can threaten to move Blizzard to Texas.
Blizzard is avoiding Taxes anyway. So what's the real threat behind this?
McCree was one of the Cosby Suite people so thats not surprise, I dont recall hearing about Barriga or LeCraft before so they probably had racked up shitty records over their careers.
According to an insider report from Kotaku, Diablo IV director Luis Barriga, Diablo IV lead designer Jesse McCree, and World of Warcraft senior designer Jonathan LeCraft were let go today. All three men have a long history at Blizzard – Luis Barriga worked on WoW, Diablo III, and Overwatch before taking over Diablo IV, and Jonathan LeCraft has been working on WoW since almost the beginning. Perhaps the most prominent of the three men is Jesse McCree, who’s been with Blizzard since the mid-2000s and is the namesake of the Overwatch character McCree.
When will we see executive firings, its good that they're cutting people still but I find it pretty unacceptable that we're not seeing more higher level firings. Blizzard was not the sole part of ActiBlizz engaged in sexual harassment and worse.
On August 13 2021 21:37 Zambrah wrote: Lol, "the Ultimate Hammer" what a joke.
my jurisdiction "got tough" with business. GM left and the entire auto sector minimized its operations. 10s of thousands of middle class level paying jobs were lost. All of a sudden the "get tough" approach stopped. These are multinational corps that just move where ever they get the best deal.
what do you think Gearbox is doing in Quebec City? Is it some kind of hotspot? Oh right, its because some nothing town 3 hours north east of Montreal is close to Texas. LOL. Gearbox got a sweetheart deal from the province. The minute that deal ends Gearbox-Quebec disappears.
On August 13 2021 21:37 Zambrah wrote: When will we see executive firings, its good that they're cutting people still but I find it pretty unacceptable that we're not seeing more higher level firings. Blizzard was not the sole part of ActiBlizz engaged in sexual harassment and worse.
Is there direct evidence Activision employees committed any criminal acts?
Bobby fired the Prez and the HR leader. He is signalling that anyone at Blizzard is expendable. Something worse, in ATVI's is going on though. Blizzard is not making new games or IP as its revenue, profits, and player base are all in decline. The rest of ATVI is running along smoothly. So their jobs are a lot safer than anyone at Blizz.
Adham must be "on the clock" now. He is the leader of several "incubation" teams. I say some new stuff must come out very soon and be very good or Adham gets fired.
California would survive Activision Blizzard moving, and if it truly thinks it can do whatever it wants by threatening to move away then good fuckin' riddance. See if California, the world's fifth biggest economy gives a shit.
If it was that simple for companies to up and leave their enfranchised historied HQs Blizzard would have already moved the rest of it's operations into places like Texas.
Yes, non-Blizzard Activision participated in sexual harassment. The woman who took her own life was not from Blizzard, that was Activision. Treyarch and Activision publishing are areas of Activision's not-Blizzard-places that did the sexual harassment. "CoD makes money so sexual harassers are safe if they work adjacent to it" is gross and I find the mentality that making money absolves one of harassing people 'til the fucking kill themselves to be abhorrent and disgusting.
Activision can try and pretend Blizzard was the only problem, but they werent. I'm sure once more incompetent executives will skate free of consequences from overseeing dens of fuckery and being either too evil to do anything or too deeply incompetent to know what was happening.
On August 13 2021 23:23 Zambrah wrote: California would survive Activision Blizzard moving, and if it truly thinks it can do whatever it wants by threatening to move away then good fuckin' riddance. See if California, the world's fifth biggest economy gives a shit.
If it was that simple for companies to up and leave their enfranchised historied HQs Blizzard would have already moved the rest of it's operations into places like Texas.
Yes, non-Blizzard Activision participated in sexual harassment. The woman who took her own life was not from Blizzard, that was Activision. Treyarch and Activision publishing are areas of Activision's not-Blizzard-places that did the sexual harassment. "CoD makes money so sexual harassers are safe if they work adjacent to it" is gross and I find the mentality that making money absolves one of harassing people 'til the fucking kill themselves to be abhorrent and disgusting.
Activision can try and pretend Blizzard was the only problem, but they werent. I'm sure once more incompetent executives will skate free of consequences from overseeing dens of fuckery and being either too evil to do anything or too deeply incompetent to know what was happening.
You seem to be forgetting Jimmy’s many shrines to Bobby Kotick that may cloud his commentary.
I’m not sure why Blizzard would move. They’re liable for this lawsuit anyway. They’ve got to suck that up regardless, and they may have to institute changes regardless.
They’ll have to do that anyway, take the (seemingly deserved) hit and get on with it. Outside of an exceedingly generous tax offer in another state
There is nothing tying Blizzard to southern california any longer.
On August 13 2021 23:23 Zambrah wrote: Activision can try and pretend Blizzard was the only problem, but they werent. I'm sure once more incompetent executives will skate free of consequences from overseeing dens of fuckery and being either too evil to do anything or too deeply incompetent to know what was happening.
i asked what evidence there was of criminal activity within Activision proper. I guess you have none?
On August 14 2021 02:09 WombaT wrote: You seem to be forgetting Jimmy’s many shrines to Bobby Kotick that may cloud his commentary.
The above comment isn't even polemics. if you have a specific criticism of Kotick ... it can be discussed. However, the quoted comment adds nothing to the convo.
Oh so now we're at the "show me criminal evidence that's admissible in court or else I win" fallacy. Because people don't have the right to judge for themselves and make a decision as to whether their behavior was shitty, toxic and dangerous, no, we need to wait for a fucking Supreme Court justice to weigh in before we can have feelings and opinions. Don't you want people to be able to vote with their wallets? Let the free market run true, my boy.
On August 14 2021 12:17 NewSunshine wrote: And I'm saying nobody else cares about criminal evidence. That's incredibly specific to the point of being a distraction to even bring it up.
i know lots of people who care about evidence of criminal activity. it makes a huge difference. i'd say many current and former employees of Blizzard are averse to even the possibility of having a criminal record.
On August 13 2021 23:23 Zambrah wrote: Activision can try and pretend Blizzard was the only problem, but they werent. I'm sure once more incompetent executives will skate free of consequences from overseeing dens of fuckery and being either too evil to do anything or too deeply incompetent to know what was happening.
i asked what evidence there was of criminal activity within Activision proper. I guess you have none?
On August 14 2021 02:09 WombaT wrote: You seem to be forgetting Jimmy’s many shrines to Bobby Kotick that may cloud his commentary.
The above comment isn't even polemics. if you have a specific criticism of Kotick ... it can be discussed. However, the quoted comment adds nothing to the convo.
12. Defendant Activision Publishing, Inc. ("Activision Publishing") is now and was, at all times relevant to this complaint, a Delaware Corporation operating in and under the laws of the State of California and conducting business in Los Angeles, California. Activision Publishing's corporate headquarters are located in Santa Monica, California. At all times relevant to this complaint, Activision Publishing was an "employer" subject to FEHA and all other applicable statues.
The legal document by the state of California firmly delineates Blizzard and Activision here. What proof do you have that Blizzard and Blizzard exclusively is the target of the sexual harassment allegations? I guess you have none?
Doesnt even change the fact that Bobby Kotick is the one in charge, he oversaw these systematic failures, its partially on him for being a hilariously incompetent manager of people or an evil garbage person.
On August 14 2021 12:25 Zambrah wrote: Doesnt even change the fact that Bobby Kotick is the one in charge, he oversaw these systematic failures, its partially on him for being a hilariously incompetent manager of people or an evil garbage person.
i think he has done a good job. when you are in charge of 10,000 people some of them will be criminals. Therefore, I do not think criminal activity amongst 10,000 people you are in charge of automatically makes you responsible for their actions.
Likewise, I don't think Bob Iger should be fired due to a very small # of Disney employees who were caught preying on children. I posted that source earlier in this thread.
A person in charge of thousands might be directly responsible, indirectly responsible or not responsible at all for the actions of any very small group of employees. I'd say Kotick and Iger are very indirectly responsible for the problems at Disney and Blizz face due to the low pay levels and penchant for looking for employees who "love the game/product". This creates an atmosphere where the lines are blurred between work and non-work. IMO, that's on both Iger and Kotick.
I'd like to contrast Iger and Kotick with leaders like Harold Ballard and Vince Mcmahon. I'd say Ballard and Mcmahon were directly responsible for the really bad decades long criminal behaviours of their employees. Kotick and Iger.. nah ... for me... they get a pass. Now, I am open to be swayed in my opinions of Iger and Kotick based on whatever evidence surfaces in the future.
Are we still trying to gloss over the fact that it was the top level executives doing the harassment, Jimmy? Because I know I at the very least have corrected you on this already. Quit mentioning that there's this many employees in the company so they can't be held responsible when they literally couldn't have not known what was happening at Blizzard because they were doing it themselves. That's your trickle-down. They 10000% knew and could've done something if they cared to.
On August 13 2021 23:23 Zambrah wrote: Activision can try and pretend Blizzard was the only problem, but they werent. I'm sure once more incompetent executives will skate free of consequences from overseeing dens of fuckery and being either too evil to do anything or too deeply incompetent to know what was happening.
i asked what evidence there was of criminal activity within Activision proper. I guess you have none?
On August 14 2021 02:09 WombaT wrote: You seem to be forgetting Jimmy’s many shrines to Bobby Kotick that may cloud his commentary.
The above comment isn't even polemics. if you have a specific criticism of Kotick ... it can be discussed. However, the quoted comment adds nothing to the convo.
What does California lose when ATVI moves away? THey're not Microsoft, they're not manufacturer(so e.g. tied business goes down) and they tax in Netherlands IIRC. So what exactly will California lose if ATVI decides to move away?
There is nothing tying Blizzard to southern california any longer.
On August 13 2021 23:23 Zambrah wrote: Activision can try and pretend Blizzard was the only problem, but they werent. I'm sure once more incompetent executives will skate free of consequences from overseeing dens of fuckery and being either too evil to do anything or too deeply incompetent to know what was happening.
i asked what evidence there was of criminal activity within Activision proper. I guess you have none?
On August 14 2021 02:09 WombaT wrote: You seem to be forgetting Jimmy’s many shrines to Bobby Kotick that may cloud his commentary.
The above comment isn't even polemics. if you have a specific criticism of Kotick ... it can be discussed. However, the quoted comment adds nothing to the convo.
What does California lose when ATVI moves away? THey're not Microsoft, they're not manufacturer(so e.g. tied business goes down) and they tax in Netherlands IIRC. So what exactly will California lose if ATVI decides to move away?
Income tax and consumption of all the employees? A high profile employer attracting young talents from all over the world? The possibilities of spin-off companies settling down in the state as well?
There is nothing tying Blizzard to southern california any longer.
On August 13 2021 23:23 Zambrah wrote: Activision can try and pretend Blizzard was the only problem, but they werent. I'm sure once more incompetent executives will skate free of consequences from overseeing dens of fuckery and being either too evil to do anything or too deeply incompetent to know what was happening.
i asked what evidence there was of criminal activity within Activision proper. I guess you have none?
On August 14 2021 02:09 WombaT wrote: You seem to be forgetting Jimmy’s many shrines to Bobby Kotick that may cloud his commentary.
The above comment isn't even polemics. if you have a specific criticism of Kotick ... it can be discussed. However, the quoted comment adds nothing to the convo.
What does California lose when ATVI moves away? THey're not Microsoft, they're not manufacturer(so e.g. tied business goes down) and they tax in Netherlands IIRC. So what exactly will California lose if ATVI decides to move away?
Income tax and consumption of all the employees? A high profile employer attracting young talents from all over the world? The possibilities of spin-off companies settling down in the state as well?
OTOH they lose a toxic employer who was known for underpaying their employees and abusing them. Don't know, not sure if this applies to a full truth here. Also since they're there for a while do we have examples of this ever happening?
California has 40m population, I believe they can survive ATVI leaving without noticing. (local authorities may differ, but Ca?)
On August 14 2021 12:25 Zambrah wrote: Doesnt even change the fact that Bobby Kotick is the one in charge, he oversaw these systematic failures, its partially on him for being a hilariously incompetent manager of people or an evil garbage person.
i think he has done a good job. when you are in charge of 10,000 people some of them will be criminals. Therefore, I do not think criminal activity amongst 10,000 people you are in charge of automatically makes you responsible for their actions.
Likewise, I don't think Bob Iger should be fired due to a very small # of Disney employees who were caught preying on children. I posted that source earlier in this thread.
A person in charge of thousands might be directly responsible, indirectly responsible or not responsible at all for the actions of any very small group of employees. I'd say Kotick and Iger are very indirectly responsible for the problems at Disney and Blizz face due to the low pay levels and penchant for looking for employees who "love the game/product". This creates an atmosphere where the lines are blurred between work and non-work. IMO, that's on both Iger and Kotick.
I'd like to contrast Iger and Kotick with leaders like Harold Ballard and Vince Mcmahon. I'd say Ballard and Mcmahon were directly responsible for the really bad decades long criminal behaviours of their employees. Kotick and Iger.. nah ... for me... they get a pass. Now, I am open to be swayed in my opinions of Iger and Kotick based on whatever evidence surfaces in the future.
Any CEO or executive who doesnt hear about a suicide on a company trip caused by sexual harassment is a fucking massive dumbass and is so far disconnected from the goings on of their company that they don't serve any meaningful purpose in working there.
There is no world in which there is a reasonable justification for the leaders of a company to not know when someone fucking kills themselves at work because of a serious pattern of behavior cultivated in the work place. You're either daft beyond mortal comprehension or don't care, either way you're fuck awful at being a leader.
If we're gonna start arguing with the excuse that companies of a certain size can't be expected to behave responsibly, so it's "just the way it is" that they engage in predatory behavior in the workplace, then I think that's a fantastic case for making it so no single company can ever be that large in the first place.
Or maybe the fact that there are companies which are incredibly large that manage to not have rampant sexual assault and harassment problems means it's a bullshit excuse, and always has been.
There is nothing tying Blizzard to southern california any longer.
On August 13 2021 23:23 Zambrah wrote: Activision can try and pretend Blizzard was the only problem, but they werent. I'm sure once more incompetent executives will skate free of consequences from overseeing dens of fuckery and being either too evil to do anything or too deeply incompetent to know what was happening.
i asked what evidence there was of criminal activity within Activision proper. I guess you have none?
On August 14 2021 02:09 WombaT wrote: You seem to be forgetting Jimmy’s many shrines to Bobby Kotick that may cloud his commentary.
The above comment isn't even polemics. if you have a specific criticism of Kotick ... it can be discussed. However, the quoted comment adds nothing to the convo.
What does California lose when ATVI moves away? THey're not Microsoft, they're not manufacturer(so e.g. tied business goes down) and they tax in Netherlands IIRC. So what exactly will California lose if ATVI decides to move away?
Income tax and consumption of all the employees? A high profile employer attracting young talents from all over the world? The possibilities of spin-off companies settling down in the state as well?
Income tax and consumption from Activision/Blizzard employees is likely fairly small compared to the rest of the industry in California. They’re also probably not attracting the brightest talent, the games industry pays absolute shithouse compared to typical corporate IT service jobs. The brightest are going elsewhere like Facebook not working at Blizzard for wages like 20+% less than the competition.
There’s also a huge amount of games industry still in California that develop way more prestigious products like a whole chunk of Sony’s first party if you want to go that route. The conditions still suck but they seem better than Blizzard, who has a huge reputation of pitching jobs with "YOU'RE GOING TO BE WORKING ON WARCRAFT, LIVE YOUR CHILDHOOD DREAM AND ACCEPT $20,000 LESS!"
If anyone is going to get made an example of by a state, it’s the games industry.
On August 15 2021 02:05 evilfatsh1t wrote: is there a tldr or some up to date summary of the scandal so far? for people like me who havent followed the case and only heard about the headline
There's no real tl;dr because not much has happened beyond the reports that keep coming out. They're getting hit by California for widespread abuse and workplace toxicity. It isn't just general sexual harassment but also intentionally paying women less and freezing them from upper management positions because of a culture of a nerdy old boys club.
In the meantime, some companies like Coca Cola have pulled advertising for Blizzard eSports and some games news sites are refusing to report on Blizzard products as a stand against widespread abuse. In the meantime, Activision Blizzard is hiring some union busting law firm but to be fair big law firms end up taking up a whole host of nasty jobs because not every job is going to be sunshine and rainbows. But here is a list of articles detailing Blizzard's workplace problems:
That's just some of the major reports. This is not a normal workplace or toxicity remotely close to a typical big company and anyone using that excuse to dismiss these problems is a humungous asshole purposely dancing around semantics or being intentionally obtuse sorry. You get toxicity in big companies and big company HR departments often exist to protect corporate interests, yes. This is toxicity turned up to 11. How you don't know and/or refuse to deal with this is mindboggling.
These nerds would get beat up in my company without question if they pulled half the shit they did and I work in STEM where casual sexist jokes are still common. Just a few years ago one guy at work got lightly beat up for being under the influence and groping a secretary. Misogyny and sociopathy in the most pathetic ways because its skin crawlingly creepy and pathetic in ways that only nerds can be.
There is nothing tying Blizzard to southern california any longer.
On August 13 2021 23:23 Zambrah wrote: Activision can try and pretend Blizzard was the only problem, but they werent. I'm sure once more incompetent executives will skate free of consequences from overseeing dens of fuckery and being either too evil to do anything or too deeply incompetent to know what was happening.
i asked what evidence there was of criminal activity within Activision proper. I guess you have none?
On August 14 2021 02:09 WombaT wrote: You seem to be forgetting Jimmy’s many shrines to Bobby Kotick that may cloud his commentary.
The above comment isn't even polemics. if you have a specific criticism of Kotick ... it can be discussed. However, the quoted comment adds nothing to the convo.
What does California lose when ATVI moves away? THey're not Microsoft, they're not manufacturer(so e.g. tied business goes down) and they tax in Netherlands IIRC. So what exactly will California lose if ATVI decides to move away?
Income tax and consumption of all the employees? A high profile employer attracting young talents from all over the world? The possibilities of spin-off companies settling down in the state as well?
Income tax and consumption from Activision/Blizzard employees is likely fairly small compared to the rest of the industry in California. They’re also probably not attracting the brightest talent, the games industry pays absolute shithouse compared to typical corporate IT service jobs. The brightest are going elsewhere like Facebook not working at Blizzard for wages like 20+% less than the competition.
There’s also a huge amount of games industry still in California that develop way more prestigious products like a whole chunk of Sony’s first party if you want to go that route. The conditions still suck but they seem better than Blizzard, who has a huge reputation of pitching jobs with "YOU'RE GOING TO BE WORKING ON WARCRAFT, LIVE YOUR CHILDHOOD DREAM AND ACCEPT $20,000 LESS!"
If anyone is going to get made an example of by a state, it’s the games industry.
On August 15 2021 02:05 evilfatsh1t wrote: is there a tldr or some up to date summary of the scandal so far? for people like me who havent followed the case and only heard about the headline
There's no real tl;dr because not much has happened beyond the reports that keep coming out. They're getting hit by California for widespread abuse and workplace toxicity. It isn't just general sexual harassment but also intentionally paying women less and freezing them from upper management positions because of a culture of a nerdy old boys club.
In the meantime, some companies like Coca Cola have pulled advertising for Blizzard eSports and some games news sites are refusing to report on Blizzard products as a stand against widespread abuse. In the meantime, Activision Blizzard is hiring some union busting law firm but to be fair big law firms end up taking up a whole host of nasty jobs because not every job is going to be sunshine and rainbows. But here is a list of articles detailing Blizzard's workplace problems:
That's just some of the major reports. This is not a normal workplace or toxicity remotely close to a typical big company and anyone using that excuse to dismiss these problems is a humungous asshole purposely dancing around semantics or being intentionally obtuse sorry. You get toxicity in big companies and big company HR departments often exist to protect corporate interests, yes. This is toxicity turned up to 11. How you don't know and/or refuse to deal with this is mindboggling.
These nerds would get beat up in my company without question if they pulled half the shit they did and I work in STEM where casual sexist jokes are still common. Just a few years ago one guy at work got lightly beat up for being under the influence and groping a secretary. Misogyny and sociopathy in the most pathetic ways because its skin crawlingly creepy and pathetic in ways that only nerds can be.
With Blizzard losing 20% of its playerbase during 2019 and 2020 it is a lot easier for rumours of mass layoffs and fundamental restructuring to gain traction.
Union Busting Tactic #1: float rumours of mass layoffs and restructuring that requires every employee to re apply for their newly redefined job that was very similar to their old job. float rumours you are shutting down completely or splitting up Blizzard and moving parts of it out of California.
PROJECTION: gophers and stooges of ATVI execs will start rumours and journos will confirm "via multiple corroborating sources" that mass layoffs and fundamental restructuring are very possible for Blizzard.
On August 15 2021 12:24 StalkerTL wrote: Income tax and consumption from Activision/Blizzard employees is likely fairly small compared to the rest of the industry in California.
The problem is the entire video gaming industry sees ATVI getting raked over the coals and thinks more carefully about expanding within the state. California can pressure ATVI to some extent. If California forces ATVI to spends hundreds of millions of dollars defending itself then their pressure back fires.
Ontario, Canada was traditionally a very pro business jurisdiction. Ontario started to get tough with business for about 18 months. A bunch of businesses left or minimized operations. Tens of thousands of high paying upper middle class jobs disappeared. Ontario stopped "getting tough".
In 1950 it was easier for places like Ontario, Canada and California, USA to pressure industries. Now, these multinationals can hop-scotch all over the planet and place their production facilities wherever conditions are most favourable.
California released a document that grabbed , from their perspective, great headlines. The state really makes it appear they are cracking down on workplace abuse. California got their show points. Now, California will back off and settle with ATVI.
The hammer California holds is orders of discovery. ATVI does not want their private communications made public. The hammer ATVI holds is: they can leave California. I expect both sides to play chicken with each other over the next few months.
On August 15 2021 12:24 StalkerTL wrote: These nerds would get beat up in my company without question if they pulled half the shit they did and I work in STEM where casual sexist jokes are still common. Just a few years ago one guy at work got lightly beat up for being under the influence and groping a secretary. Misogyny and sociopathy in the most pathetic ways because its skin crawlingly creepy and pathetic in ways that only nerds can be.
i'd say you are over simplifying and stereotyping "nerds".
if you work in a pro business jurisdiction ... it is "anything goes" man. i prefer working in pro business jurisdictions because that is where the best, most lucrative and most exciting opportunities are.
Work place abuse will continue; there is nothing California can do about it. It is up to the individual employees to plan their path out and then GTFO. The government will not save them. It never could, it can't right now, and it never will in the future. There is no Santa Claus. He doesn't exist, he never did, and Santa Claus ain't rescuing anyone in the future.
Blizzard refusing to acknowledge worker demands, happening on an external and internal basis, with outspoken employees having emailed C-suite types about the demands and being met with silence.
Blizzard clearly doesn't want to actually do anything serious to adjust their serious cultural problems, and they'll very clearly don't want to even kind of give even the vaguest appearance of legitimacy to their employee's demands.
Definitely afraid of that unionization. Definitely the reason Wilmer Hale is involved.
On August 24 2021 09:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: With Blizzard losing 20% of its playerbase during 2019 and 2020 it is a lot easier for rumours of mass layoffs and fundamental restructuring to gain traction.
Union Busting Tactic #1: float rumours of mass layoffs and restructuring that requires every employee to re apply for their newly redefined job that was very similar to their old job. float rumours you are shutting down completely or splitting up Blizzard and moving parts of it out of California.
PROJECTION: gophers and stooges of ATVI execs will start rumours and journos will confirm "via multiple corroborating sources" that mass layoffs and fundamental restructuring are very possible for Blizzard.
On August 15 2021 12:24 StalkerTL wrote: Income tax and consumption from Activision/Blizzard employees is likely fairly small compared to the rest of the industry in California.
The problem is the entire video gaming industry sees ATVI getting raked over the coals and thinks more carefully about expanding within the state. California can pressure ATVI to some extent. If California forces ATVI to spends hundreds of millions of dollars defending itself then their pressure back fires.
Ontario, Canada was traditionally a very pro business jurisdiction. Ontario started to get tough with business for about 18 months. A bunch of businesses left or minimized operations. Tens of thousands of high paying upper middle class jobs disappeared. Ontario stopped "getting tough".
In 1950 it was easier for places like Ontario, Canada and California, USA to pressure industries. Now, these multinationals can hop-scotch all over the planet and place their production facilities wherever conditions are most favourable.
California released a document that grabbed , from their perspective, great headlines. The state really makes it appear they are cracking down on workplace abuse. California got their show points. Now, California will back off and settle with ATVI.
The hammer California holds is orders of discovery. ATVI does not want their private communications made public. The hammer ATVI holds is: they can leave California. I expect both sides to play chicken with each other over the next few months.
On August 15 2021 12:24 StalkerTL wrote: These nerds would get beat up in my company without question if they pulled half the shit they did and I work in STEM where casual sexist jokes are still common. Just a few years ago one guy at work got lightly beat up for being under the influence and groping a secretary. Misogyny and sociopathy in the most pathetic ways because its skin crawlingly creepy and pathetic in ways that only nerds can be.
i'd say you are over simplifying and stereotyping "nerds".
if you work in a pro business jurisdiction ... it is "anything goes" man. i prefer working in pro business jurisdictions because that is where the best, most lucrative and most exciting opportunities are.
Work place abuse will continue; there is nothing California can do about it. It is up to the individual employees to plan their path out and then GTFO. The government will not save them. It never could, it can't right now, and it never will in the future. There is no Santa Claus. He doesn't exist, he never did, and Santa Claus ain't rescuing anyone in the future.
Is this a troll post? Most companies not run by frat boys don't operate in these manners because they lose talent, not to mention the huge hit to the brand when word comes out. There is nothing "anti-business" about not allowing harassment in businesses. Harassment is not productive.
I'm pretty sure no company is like, well we want to be in this location because it is the best place to attract talent, good offices, friendly taxes and blah blah. But location B is worse for most things BUT we will be able to have a cultre of harassment within the office without consequence. Lets pick B not being able to harass people will hurt our bottom line too much......
Even in the world of bloody grunt retail over here a bloke got sacked for making weird sexual comments to colleagues and in one case a customer. There’s still plenty of room for some good-natured banter, even in a workplace that could do much better in other realms in terms of conditions, making comments that people tell you make them uncomfortable, consistently and you’re out the door.
Methinks Blizzard decamping to outside California would be a pretty ruinous PR move. It’s going to be a reallll hard sell, far harder than ‘we moved to a more generous tax area for commerce’ to move operations rather than deal with a culture of harassment.
A PR hit the cynic in me thinks they could have taken if not for other gaffes in the last few years, and completely botching the Warcraft 3 remaster etc etc. Or put out a really great new game recently.
But they’ve also done none of that, and nickle and diming things that should have been absolute easy wins like Reforged has come back to bite them.
There’s a certain robustness in adherence to not playing Blizz games due to this current scandal, least in my peer group that normally would have fizzled out, but is sustained because Blizz had already pissed people off prior to this.
Correctly or not Blizzard’s brand strength was in being the ‘good guys’, in intermittent game releases that were great games, or if not to one’s taste then at least really polished, and supporting their existing IPs forever.
On August 24 2021 09:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: With Blizzard losing 20% of its playerbase during 2019 and 2020 it is a lot easier for rumours of mass layoffs and fundamental restructuring to gain traction.
Union Busting Tactic #1: float rumours of mass layoffs and restructuring that requires every employee to re apply for their newly redefined job that was very similar to their old job. float rumours you are shutting down completely or splitting up Blizzard and moving parts of it out of California.
PROJECTION: gophers and stooges of ATVI execs will start rumours and journos will confirm "via multiple corroborating sources" that mass layoffs and fundamental restructuring are very possible for Blizzard.
On August 15 2021 12:24 StalkerTL wrote: Income tax and consumption from Activision/Blizzard employees is likely fairly small compared to the rest of the industry in California.
The problem is the entire video gaming industry sees ATVI getting raked over the coals and thinks more carefully about expanding within the state. California can pressure ATVI to some extent. If California forces ATVI to spends hundreds of millions of dollars defending itself then their pressure back fires.
Ontario, Canada was traditionally a very pro business jurisdiction. Ontario started to get tough with business for about 18 months. A bunch of businesses left or minimized operations. Tens of thousands of high paying upper middle class jobs disappeared. Ontario stopped "getting tough".
In 1950 it was easier for places like Ontario, Canada and California, USA to pressure industries. Now, these multinationals can hop-scotch all over the planet and place their production facilities wherever conditions are most favourable.
California released a document that grabbed , from their perspective, great headlines. The state really makes it appear they are cracking down on workplace abuse. California got their show points. Now, California will back off and settle with ATVI.
The hammer California holds is orders of discovery. ATVI does not want their private communications made public. The hammer ATVI holds is: they can leave California. I expect both sides to play chicken with each other over the next few months.
On August 15 2021 12:24 StalkerTL wrote: These nerds would get beat up in my company without question if they pulled half the shit they did and I work in STEM where casual sexist jokes are still common. Just a few years ago one guy at work got lightly beat up for being under the influence and groping a secretary. Misogyny and sociopathy in the most pathetic ways because its skin crawlingly creepy and pathetic in ways that only nerds can be.
i'd say you are over simplifying and stereotyping "nerds".
if you work in a pro business jurisdiction ... it is "anything goes" man. i prefer working in pro business jurisdictions because that is where the best, most lucrative and most exciting opportunities are.
Work place abuse will continue; there is nothing California can do about it. It is up to the individual employees to plan their path out and then GTFO. The government will not save them. It never could, it can't right now, and it never will in the future. There is no Santa Claus. He doesn't exist, he never did, and Santa Claus ain't rescuing anyone in the future.
Is this a troll post? Most companies not run by frat boys don't operate in these manners because they lose talent, not to mention the huge hit to the brand when word comes out. There is nothing "anti-business" about not allowing harassment in businesses. Harassment is not productive.
I'm pretty sure no company is like, well we want to be in this location because it is the best place to attract talent, good offices, friendly taxes and blah blah. But location B is worse for most things BUT we will be able to have a cultre of harassment within the office without consequence. Lets pick B not being able to harass people will hurt our bottom line too much......
He's had it explained for him multiple times why "that's just the way it is" is a terrible response, and why it's just not true given how particularly heinously Blizzard has carried themselves. He would rather piss on the people being harassed by telling them they didn't try hard enough to get away from their abusers than agree it's worth trying to stop it, or even call it out as unacceptable.
I guess that's the biggest tipoff for me. If someone is so quick to call abuse unavoidable but somehow can't manage to call it unacceptable, then I think their stance on the issue is pretty clear.
On August 24 2021 09:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: With Blizzard losing 20% of its playerbase during 2019 and 2020 it is a lot easier for rumours of mass layoffs and fundamental restructuring to gain traction.
Union Busting Tactic #1: float rumours of mass layoffs and restructuring that requires every employee to re apply for their newly redefined job that was very similar to their old job. float rumours you are shutting down completely or splitting up Blizzard and moving parts of it out of California.
PROJECTION: gophers and stooges of ATVI execs will start rumours and journos will confirm "via multiple corroborating sources" that mass layoffs and fundamental restructuring are very possible for Blizzard.
On August 15 2021 12:24 StalkerTL wrote: Income tax and consumption from Activision/Blizzard employees is likely fairly small compared to the rest of the industry in California.
The problem is the entire video gaming industry sees ATVI getting raked over the coals and thinks more carefully about expanding within the state. California can pressure ATVI to some extent. If California forces ATVI to spends hundreds of millions of dollars defending itself then their pressure back fires.
Ontario, Canada was traditionally a very pro business jurisdiction. Ontario started to get tough with business for about 18 months. A bunch of businesses left or minimized operations. Tens of thousands of high paying upper middle class jobs disappeared. Ontario stopped "getting tough".
In 1950 it was easier for places like Ontario, Canada and California, USA to pressure industries. Now, these multinationals can hop-scotch all over the planet and place their production facilities wherever conditions are most favourable.
California released a document that grabbed , from their perspective, great headlines. The state really makes it appear they are cracking down on workplace abuse. California got their show points. Now, California will back off and settle with ATVI.
The hammer California holds is orders of discovery. ATVI does not want their private communications made public. The hammer ATVI holds is: they can leave California. I expect both sides to play chicken with each other over the next few months.
On August 15 2021 12:24 StalkerTL wrote: These nerds would get beat up in my company without question if they pulled half the shit they did and I work in STEM where casual sexist jokes are still common. Just a few years ago one guy at work got lightly beat up for being under the influence and groping a secretary. Misogyny and sociopathy in the most pathetic ways because its skin crawlingly creepy and pathetic in ways that only nerds can be.
i'd say you are over simplifying and stereotyping "nerds".
if you work in a pro business jurisdiction ... it is "anything goes" man. i prefer working in pro business jurisdictions because that is where the best, most lucrative and most exciting opportunities are.
Work place abuse will continue; there is nothing California can do about it. It is up to the individual employees to plan their path out and then GTFO. The government will not save them. It never could, it can't right now, and it never will in the future. There is no Santa Claus. He doesn't exist, he never did, and Santa Claus ain't rescuing anyone in the future.
Is this a troll post? Most companies not run by frat boys don't operate in these manners because they lose talent, not to mention the huge hit to the brand when word comes out. There is nothing "anti-business" about not allowing harassment in businesses. Harassment is not productive.
I'm pretty sure no company is like, well we want to be in this location because it is the best place to attract talent, good offices, friendly taxes and blah blah. But location B is worse for most things BUT we will be able to have a cultre of harassment within the office without consequence. Lets pick B not being able to harass people will hurt our bottom line too much......
He's had it explained for him multiple times why "that's just the way it is" is a terrible response, and why it's just not true given how particularly heinously Blizzard has carried themselves. He would rather piss on the people being harassed by telling them they didn't try hard enough to get away from their abusers than agree it's worth trying to stop it, or even call it out as unacceptable.
I guess that's the biggest tipoff for me. If someone is so quick to call abuse unavoidable but somehow can't manage to call it unacceptable, then I think their stance on the issue is pretty clear.
Tends to be the case that that view is as wedded to an idealistic view of how things work as any supposed utopian and unrealistic vision of improving things.
The idea that AAA game development has to operate outside of norms of many comparable industries and treat some employees terribly or else the real good stuff doesn’t get made seems way off.
In ye olden days with way smaller teams, legendary tales of guys coding engines on their own fuelled with passion and coffee, yeah. That works, absolutely when dev teams were smaller, these people were presumably usually close, and individuals had a lot of input into the project they were working on.
Extrapolating that out and the practices of that time into way bigger projects, where many are just working a regular job, because this was what gave us greatness in the 90s does not a great fit make.
Some amendments made to the ActiBlizz DFEH lawsuit, including redefining the group wronged by ActiBlizz, going from "employees" to "workers," I think to include temporary workers and the like.
Also, they note that ActiBlizz has stifled their investigation using things like NDAs. Also,
It alleges, in part, that "documents related to investigations and complaints were shredded by human resource personnel" in violation of what it asserts is the game company's legal obligation to retain them pending the investigation.
On August 25 2021 05:11 farvacola wrote: Blizzard bankruptcy here we come!
How does that work with merged companies like activision blizzard? Can they just say everything bad and all the law suits are on blizzard and punt them?
On August 25 2021 05:11 farvacola wrote: Blizzard bankruptcy here we come!
How does that work with merged companies like activision blizzard? Can they just say everything bad and all the law suits are on blizzard and punt them?
Unfortunately the answers are “it gets really messy” and “maybe.” There’s definitely a world in which the company goes through a chapter 11 reorg and successfully sheds many claims against it, including the employment lawsuit claims.
Really shows how little of a shit ActiBlizz gives about the actual problems they have, they'd rather fight the lawsuit tooth and nail in gross and unethical ways than change in any meaningful way.
Not surprising. Just disappointing. They didn't have to respond to a lawsuit by doubling down, using NDA's, shredding evidence, and attacking any attempts by the workers to unionize. They could've done none of those things and still looked quite poor as the suit runs its course. No. Ubisoft is holding their beer.
I feel a deep, deep shame for them. One that they won't feel themselves. At least they're making it easier than I ever imagined to swear off their products forever.
On August 25 2021 21:56 Timebon3s wrote: The old company made good games.
Blizzard still made good games. But WoW broke them creatively. They sold their soul to the money fountain.
They didn’t have to, is the irritating part.
You have a giant fucking money tree that doesn’t take a huge amount of pruning, if ever there’s a time to take some risks creatively it’s when you are making ungodly amounts of money and can take the hit if something doesn’t land.
But no, you can’t even find the budget to properly remaster a beloved old game of yours.
Hey not the only offender, still salty that Epic canned a new Unreal Tournament on account of Fortnite being their WoW.
Tangentially related but I just learned last night that Chris Avellone got booted from the industry over a really bogus sounding accusation, wtf. Cancel culture can really go too far the other way sometimes.
On August 25 2021 21:56 Timebon3s wrote: The old company made good games.
Blizzard still made good games. But WoW broke them creatively. They sold their soul to the money fountain.
They didn’t have to, is the irritating part.
You have a giant fucking money tree that doesn’t take a huge amount of pruning, if ever there’s a time to take some risks creatively it’s when you are making ungodly amounts of money and can take the hit if something doesn’t land.
But no, you can’t even find the budget to properly remaster a beloved old game of yours.
Hey not the only offender, still salty that Epic canned a new Unreal Tournament on account of Fortnite being their WoW.
To be fair, they could find the budget, they just made a conscious decision not to use that budget and then decided the right thing to do was release an effectively seriously damaged product 'cause they were worried about pre orders, lol
On August 25 2021 21:56 Timebon3s wrote: The old company made good games.
Blizzard still made good games. But WoW broke them creatively. They sold their soul to the money fountain.
They didn’t have to, is the irritating part.
You have a giant fucking money tree that doesn’t take a huge amount of pruning, if ever there’s a time to take some risks creatively it’s when you are making ungodly amounts of money and can take the hit if something doesn’t land.
But no, you can’t even find the budget to properly remaster a beloved old game of yours.
Hey not the only offender, still salty that Epic canned a new Unreal Tournament on account of Fortnite being their WoW.
I almost brought up Fortnite in my comment as actually a positive difference in philosophy. The astronomical success of that game allowed Epic to fund tens of millions of dollars towards their “MegaGrants” which are a no strings attached style of grant for exciting new projects using Unreal Engine 4, and now 5. Also allowed them to also invest in their own technologies and such. Now I won’t defend all of their decisions with Fortnite.
But I completely agree on Blizzard’s meddling creative choices. They could have made some risky new IP’s unobstructed by the usual constraints. They don’t even have to be 100 million dollar plus type games. They could have easily made 5 small scale new IP’s and just see if any of them catch on. But nope. “We need to invest hundreds of millions into esports Overwatch and Heroes immediately.”
Bellular put out a video on the new allegations and they included a tidbit that I hadnt heard about 'til now with regards to Activision, specifically something called Project Icebreaker back in 2012.
Basically an operation by Activision to boot the heads of Call of Duty over strained relations between Activision and Infinity Ward, likely trying to keep all of that sweet Call of Duty money no matter what.
Fenady claims Rose asked him to gain access to West and Zampella’s email, voicemail and computer, and “don’t get caught doing it.” Whatever happened in the course of seeking out this information: "Bobby will take care of you. … Don't worry about repercussions." Rose denied he asked Fenady to specifically "dig up dirt" in his deposition with Activision, though he did discuss Project Icebreaker's existence and instructing Fenady to find information.
With this and Bobby Kotick's previous sexual harassment lawsuit I'm pretty convinced that Kotick knew all about what was going on and is actively involved in trying to make sure everything is as covered up as humanly possible. Activision executives have got to go, they're scumbags who absolutely know whats happening and whats been happening and actively encourage it or actively choose to turn a blind eye.
Wat. A lot of old blizzard titles are genre-defining. The diablo franchise will be heralded as a major pillar of the dungeon crawling genre for as long as the genre is around. Blizzard majorly refined and largely constructed what we now understand as RTS games. They were also a frontrunner in the MMO world and STILL have a massive market share there.
If your argument for blizzard having never been creative is "warhammer ripoffs lol" then perhaps you need to put any effort into doing some digging.
I'll miss old blizzard for their work in expanding and refining some now-beloved genres. That blizzard has been dead for a while, now. What's happening with its corpse isn't pretty, and I won't be too hurt if it ends ip buried.
On August 25 2021 21:56 Timebon3s wrote: The old company made good games.
Blizzard still made good games. But WoW broke them creatively. They sold their soul to the money fountain.
Werent the "Old" Franchises just ripoffs of Warhammer? How is that more creative? What exactly was more creative?
Wasnt Warcraft 3 already casual trash?
And about 95% of any fantasy properly draws deep from the well of Tolkien.
Aside from polish, game mechanics and functionality which require creativity and vision to nail, they made distinct, unique factions work and knocked it out of the park.
WC3 did the whole hero/creeping mechanic which was quite a departure, not to everyone’s taste but I think it’s a great game.
Blizzard’s best games are like listening to a record and yeah, you can pick out the artist’s influences but damn are they not seamlessly blended together into a good listen.
On August 25 2021 21:56 Timebon3s wrote: The old company made good games.
Blizzard still made good games. But WoW broke them creatively. They sold their soul to the money fountain.
They didn’t have to, is the irritating part.
You have a giant fucking money tree that doesn’t take a huge amount of pruning, if ever there’s a time to take some risks creatively it’s when you are making ungodly amounts of money and can take the hit if something doesn’t land.
But no, you can’t even find the budget to properly remaster a beloved old game of yours.
Hey not the only offender, still salty that Epic canned a new Unreal Tournament on account of Fortnite being their WoW.
The problem with this is gamers typically band wagon to games. If you give all your WoW players the next latest and greatest trend you're just having them spend money on another game you've created. Why make the new game when you can keep them spending money on WoW?
I don't personally agree with this logic, but so many companies do it that you can't ignore it.
Blizzard wanted to make a Warhammer game (StarCraft was 40K) but Games Workshop saw the alpha and bailed so Blizz had to make their own setting based on what they already had.
Warcraft 3 is one of the best RTS games ever made that's being played competitively to this very day. Basically everything Blizz did after TFT was just contributing to their downfall - WoW which took most of their time and effort because money and all the other games they released were not really Blizzard stuff. SC2 was crap, D3 was crap, HotS was a desperate attempt to salvage the loss of DotA (which they weren't interested in when IF came to them first), Overwatch is a kneejerk reaction to CoD's success, Hearthstone is just a way to monetize more things.
What Blizzard lacked for the past 15 years is the vision and a plan for their existing IPs that would allow them to expand on them with quality products up to Blizzard's old standards.
On August 26 2021 07:53 kupsas wrote: Werent the "Old" Franchises just ripoffs of Warhammer? How is that more creative? What exactly was more creative?
Wasnt Warcraft 3 already casual trash?
Blizzard wanted to make a Warhammer game (StarCraft was 40K) but Games Workshop saw the alpha and bailed so Blizz had to make their own setting based on what they already had.
Warcraft 3 is one of the best RTS games ever made that's being played competitively to this very day. Basically everything Blizz did after TFT was just contributing to their downfall - WoW which took most of their time and effort because money and all the other games they released were not really Blizzard stuff. SC2 was crap, D3 was crap, HotS was a desperate attempt to salvage the loss of DotA (which they weren't interested in when IF came to them first), Overwatch is a kneejerk reaction to CoD's success, Hearthstone is just a way to monetize more things.
What Blizzard lacked for the past 15 years is the vision and a plan for their existing IPs that would allow them to expand on them with quality products up to Blizzard's old standards.
Starcraft 2 was crap? Fuck, people are still playing this game. Why? Isnt it CRAP? Diablo 3 was crap? Odd, i played the game a shitton. Especially after the patches. Whats wrong with HotS? The game is fun. I played a shitton of DotA and couldnt stand DotA 2. People started farming for 20 minutes. League of Legends was an awful DotA ripoff and unplayable bad, more costly, gated and still WAY more successful than DotA. Makes sense.
Overwatch is a kneejerk reaction to CoD's. What? Hearthstone is just a way to monetize more things. What?
EVERYTHING CRAP BESIDES DOTA CS OG CREW
By the way, what company has been orginal for the past 15 years? What popular games right now arent just "Other games" or sequels?
Bohemia Interactive...ArmA 3 springs to mind. Its still incredibly popular for its age (like SC2) and although its a sequel, its a type of game no other company is going near, and the DLC content is really original.
I thought SC2 was really good. Just about the best modern RTS you can get. Overwatch was clearly just an attempt to try and get in to a market that was already saturated. Never played Hearthstone, D3 or Heroes or any of that stuff. Its clear that Blizzard ran out of ideas a while ago.
On August 26 2021 07:53 kupsas wrote: Werent the "Old" Franchises just ripoffs of Warhammer? How is that more creative? What exactly was more creative?
Wasnt Warcraft 3 already casual trash?
Blizzard wanted to make a Warhammer game (StarCraft was 40K) but Games Workshop saw the alpha and bailed so Blizz had to make their own setting based on what they already had.
Warcraft 3 is one of the best RTS games ever made that's being played competitively to this very day. Basically everything Blizz did after TFT was just contributing to their downfall - WoW which took most of their time and effort because money and all the other games they released were not really Blizzard stuff. SC2 was crap, D3 was crap, HotS was a desperate attempt to salvage the loss of DotA (which they weren't interested in when IF came to them first), Overwatch is a kneejerk reaction to CoD's success, Hearthstone is just a way to monetize more things.
What Blizzard lacked for the past 15 years is the vision and a plan for their existing IPs that would allow them to expand on them with quality products up to Blizzard's old standards.
Starcraft 2 was crap? Fuck, people are still playing this game. Why? Isnt it CRAP? Diablo 3 was crap? Odd, i played the game a shitton. Especially after the patches. Whats wrong with HotS? The game is fun. I played a shitton of DotA and couldnt stand DotA 2. People started farming for 20 minutes. League of Legends was an awful DotA ripoff and unplayable bad, more costly, gated and still WAY more successful than DotA. Makes sense.
Overwatch is a kneejerk reaction to CoD's. What? Hearthstone is just a way to monetize more things. What?
EVERYTHING CRAP BESIDES DOTA CS OG CREW
By the way, what company has been orginal for the past 15 years? What popular games right now arent just "Other games" or sequels?
Bohemia Interactive...ArmA 3 springs to mind. Its still incredibly popular for its age (like SC2) and although its a sequel, its a type of game no other company is going near, and the DLC content is really original.
I thought SC2 was really good. Just about the best modern RTS you can get. Overwatch was clearly just an attempt to try and get in to a market that was already saturated. Never played Hearthstone, D3 or Heroes or any of that stuff. Its clear that Blizzard ran out of ideas a while ago.
The list of innovative, popular games created in the past 15 years is actually quite long, it would include titles like Hades, Little Nightmares, Valheim, Returnal, Disco Elysium, Elite Dangerous, Terraria, Binding of Isaac and a ton more. The idea that there's nothing original and popular coming out is stark nonsense, nonsense that only further highlights Blizzard's creative drought
On August 26 2021 08:16 Fleetfeet wrote: Wat. A lot of old blizzard titles are genre-defining. The diablo franchise will be heralded as a major pillar of the dungeon crawling genre for as long as the genre is around. Blizzard majorly refined and largely constructed what we now understand as RTS games. They were also a frontrunner in the MMO world and STILL have a massive market share there.
If your argument for blizzard having never been creative is "warhammer ripoffs lol" then perhaps you need to put any effort into doing some digging.
I'll miss old blizzard for their work in expanding and refining some now-beloved genres. That blizzard has been dead for a while, now. What's happening with its corpse isn't pretty, and I won't be too hurt if it ends ip buried.
nuked
FFXIV does not require steam to work, not even on PC. Though the point of FFXIV being smaller than WoW is correct, probably around 50% of player numbers now a days (slowly closing in).
Though a site such as https://mmostats.com/ says FFXIV has more active players. Nobody publishes real numbers so it is hard to know for sure. It is actually strange steam does that for the games that chooses that platform, most games and platforms never publish it except as part of publicity when on an upward trend.
After Diablo 2 and Warcraft 3 the thing Blizzard has been doing is release polished and tweaked games in established genres. WoW is a better Everquest. Hearthstone used their platform and the timing of free to play going big to expand the genre. Overwatch being a modern version of Team Fortress. HotS is a tweaked game in a hard genre that was a decent success considering multiple better games existed and still does.
There is nothing wrong with making good games in existing genres. That is what most game companies does and it is what Blizzard has been doing after the major genres were established. Many of them good or even great games, the problem is people hold them up as greater than they are.
What honestly surprises me is how many publications that considered Overwatch game of the year 2016. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Game_of_the_Year_awards has them there more often than most other studios but it is far from a stand out studio that dominates the area.
On August 25 2021 21:56 Timebon3s wrote: The old company made good games.
Blizzard still made good games. But WoW broke them creatively. They sold their soul to the money fountain.
They didn’t have to, is the irritating part.
You have a giant fucking money tree that doesn’t take a huge amount of pruning, if ever there’s a time to take some risks creatively it’s when you are making ungodly amounts of money and can take the hit if something doesn’t land.
But no, you can’t even find the budget to properly remaster a beloved old game of yours.
Hey not the only offender, still salty that Epic canned a new Unreal Tournament on account of Fortnite being their WoW.
I just want to say that they did try this. And I believe that's part of what broke the company.
They were working on Titan. For years. And it failed. It was "the mot ambitious game of all time" (their words, not mine), at the time they were making it and it failed, it never worked and it made them lose millions. Reportedly it also made Activision be mad at blizzard.
They salvaged some of it in Overwatch, but most was lost and they had to spend quite a bit more to make Overwatch what it was.
On August 25 2021 21:56 Timebon3s wrote: The old company made good games.
Blizzard still made good games. But WoW broke them creatively. They sold their soul to the money fountain.
They didn’t have to, is the irritating part.
You have a giant fucking money tree that doesn’t take a huge amount of pruning, if ever there’s a time to take some risks creatively it’s when you are making ungodly amounts of money and can take the hit if something doesn’t land.
But no, you can’t even find the budget to properly remaster a beloved old game of yours.
Hey not the only offender, still salty that Epic canned a new Unreal Tournament on account of Fortnite being their WoW.
I just want to say that they did try this. And I believe that's part of what broke the company.
They were working on Titan. For years. And it failed. It was "the mot ambitious game of all time" (their words, not mine), at the time they were making it and it failed, it never worked and it made them lose millions. Reportedly it also made Activision be mad at blizzard.
They salvaged some of it in Overwatch, but most was lost and they had to spend quite a bit more to make Overwatch what it was.
You don’t have to make the most ambitious game of all time. If you can, well that’s cool.
There’s no reason they can’t properly remaster a classic game like WC3, or have more projects in the pipeline.
On August 26 2021 07:53 kupsas wrote: Werent the "Old" Franchises just ripoffs of Warhammer? How is that more creative? What exactly was more creative?
Wasnt Warcraft 3 already casual trash?
Blizzard wanted to make a Warhammer game (StarCraft was 40K) but Games Workshop saw the alpha and bailed so Blizz had to make their own setting based on what they already had.
Warcraft 3 is one of the best RTS games ever made that's being played competitively to this very day. Basically everything Blizz did after TFT was just contributing to their downfall - WoW which took most of their time and effort because money and all the other games they released were not really Blizzard stuff. SC2 was crap, D3 was crap, HotS was a desperate attempt to salvage the loss of DotA (which they weren't interested in when IF came to them first), Overwatch is a kneejerk reaction to CoD's success, Hearthstone is just a way to monetize more things.
What Blizzard lacked for the past 15 years is the vision and a plan for their existing IPs that would allow them to expand on them with quality products up to Blizzard's old standards.
Starcraft 2 was crap? Fuck, people are still playing this game. Why? Isnt it CRAP? Diablo 3 was crap? Odd, i played the game a shitton. Especially after the patches. Whats wrong with HotS? The game is fun. I played a shitton of DotA and couldnt stand DotA 2. People started farming for 20 minutes. League of Legends was an awful DotA ripoff and unplayable bad, more costly, gated and still WAY more successful than DotA. Makes sense.
Overwatch is a kneejerk reaction to CoD's. What? Hearthstone is just a way to monetize more things. What?
EVERYTHING CRAP BESIDES DOTA CS OG CREW
By the way, what company has been orginal for the past 15 years? What popular games right now arent just "Other games" or sequels?
Bohemia Interactive...ArmA 3 springs to mind. Its still incredibly popular for its age (like SC2) and although its a sequel, its a type of game no other company is going near, and the DLC content is really original.
I thought SC2 was really good. Just about the best modern RTS you can get. Overwatch was clearly just an attempt to try and get in to a market that was already saturated. Never played Hearthstone, D3 or Heroes or any of that stuff. Its clear that Blizzard ran out of ideas a while ago.
The list of innovative, popular games created in the past 15 years is actually quite long, it would include titles like Hades, Little Nightmares, Valheim, Returnal, Disco Elysium, Elite Dangerous, Terraria, Binding of Isaac and a ton more. The idea that there's nothing original and popular coming out is stark nonsense, nonsense that only further highlights Blizzard's creative drought
!!!WHAT COMPANY!!!! NOT WHAT GAMES. What the fuck. Imagine Blizzard releasing some shit like Little Nightmares which pushes another game away. Holy fuck i would be pissed
Let me just pick your games apart: Hades is another Roguelike. There have been thousands already. Its apperantly just better Valheim is another Open World which every basement developer shits out nowadays. Its flushed 2-3 Weeks after Returnal? What? Its a Shooter. Elite Dangerous. Space Shooter. Disco Elysium>Fallout
Remember how Valve used to be creative? Why arent there 1000 pages of discussions?
I’m not sure what your argument is.
Blizzard is bad because lack of originality, but all these games that are seen as original aren’t because there’s nothing truly original in games?
"Originality" is a bullshit concept, everything has been done and everything is adapted from something else, the reason for this is really simple, you dont actually want whats left out of true originality, true originality would be something like a world made of bubblegum and broccoli thats covered in barbed wire with hot dog cats flying upside down in space. Something utterly ridiculous that noone has really thought to do because why would they?
Any intelligent designer understands that conveying an idea is made immeasurably easier by using whats culturally understood about something. As mentioned before, WarCraft draws heavily from Tolkien-esque fantasy, thats partly because Tolkien's fantasy world is so culturally ubiquitous its hard not to want to draw from it since it provides an easy read for a common audience. Short man live in mountain? Is Dwarf! Big spiky armored skull looky man? Is bad guy! There is a ton of design language thats "unoriginal" and it exists because your brain has been programmed to associate colors and shapes with things, and its dumb not to use those associations because youre very likely to confuse people if you dont.
People don't want originality, they want something else but can't articulate what precisely they want.
Blizzard didn't and doesn't do anything super original, but they did make polished games with fun gameplay loops, charming stylized art, and tight mechanics. Noone liked Blizzard because their games were so original.
How does ANY of this relate to the fact that women have been treated worse than equipment for seemingly the majority of Blizzard's existence and not only did the highest members of the company know it, they protected it, supported it, participated in it, and are now destroying evidence in violation of basic precepts of the law in order to hide and maintain it?
On August 27 2021 10:29 Circumstance wrote: How does ANY of this relate to the fact that women have been treated worse than equipment for seemingly the majority of Blizzard's existence and not only did the highest members of the company know it, they protected it, supported it, participated in it, and are now destroying evidence in violation of basic precepts of the law in order to hide and maintain it?
Yeah fair, shouldn’t have contributed to the derail.
On August 27 2021 02:59 Yurie wrote: After Diablo 2 and Warcraft 3 the thing Blizzard has been doing is release polished and tweaked games in established genres. WoW is a better Everquest. Hearthstone used their platform and the timing of free to play going big to expand the genre. Overwatch being a modern version of Team Fortress. HotS is a tweaked game in a hard genre that was a decent success considering multiple better games existed and still does.
There is nothing wrong with making good games in existing genres. That is what most game companies does and it is what Blizzard has been doing after the major genres were established. Many of them good or even great games, the problem is people hold them up as greater than they are.
While I agree with this I am of the opinion that they've kinda mismanaged their IPs. Most of their fans feel really strong about each IP (just try and recall the SC vs WC3 mudslinging) and I guess they felt mistreated and cheated?
WoW was a HUGE success but its success started leaking into other games which begun to look more and more "warcrafty". Common complaint with D3 was that it was way too bright, colorful and cheerful - big departure from the previous grimdark and gothic entries. Then Hearthstone is basically just WoW the card game...
I wouldn't mind if they started mixing the IPs a bit. Instead of colorful Diablo why not release WarCraft ARPG? Overwatch should be StarCraft: Ghost revived as a team based FPS. WoW should be sidelined for next gen MMO, this time perhaps targeted at mature audiences and set in the Diablo universe.
I think they lost a lot of fans and faith when they abandoned some darker themes and started making everything PG.
I'm starting to wonder when things started to go so wrong for them? When the big WoW money started coming in? After the merger with Activision?
Is it possible to find a single point in time when Blizzard fully embraced corporate culture and started caring more about money than the people (both customers and their own employees)?
On August 27 2021 08:11 Zambrah wrote: true originality would be something like a world made of bubblegum and broccoli thats covered in barbed wire with hot dog cats flying upside down in space. Something utterly ridiculous that noone has really thought to do because why would they?
Because... this idea sounds awesome af, someone should do it
I just want to note that a lot of people, I think, had a similar sort of misconception about gaming studios about 15 years ago. I should know, I was one of these people. That was that it was synonymous with studio in the art sense, where it was the same group of people mostly making decisions and doing work, even if there were some inflow and outflow.
Instead, it turned out to be like a movie studio, where the studio has fuck all to do with the quality besides who they hire.
Basically no one at Blizzard in 2008 was the same as in 1992 aside from a few big names. Metzinger could write well, sometimes, and that was about it. One of the very first big warning signs about SC2 being more of a cash grab than faithful sequel was when they hired Dustin Browder as the director. Broodwar was and is still regarded as the best RTS ever made. Browder's command and conquer commands weren't bad but... any of the past directors would've done better. To give a movie analogy, this was like hiring Micheal Bay to direct Godfather Part IV. The rest of the cast were similar downgrades. All of them perfectly capable at their role, but not good enough to justify the franchise. The insane decision to split it into 3 parts ahead of time prevented this problem from ever being fixed with some sort of reset.
Anyways, if you really liked a game, look up the credits and find the name of the person who worked on that aspect. Then hunt down what else that person has worked on. You can learn some very wild things, like that the sprite artist for Final Fantasy I is still actively making very. FF1-esque sprites for newer games. Or more generic things on writers or directors.
So if you really like a battle design, find the battle designers, story find the writers, and directors for an overall good game - or for a game that works better than the sum of all it's parts(an Indy game with subpar graphics, weak gameplay, a bad story, but a theme that ties it all together in an enjoyable way is an example here).
I know this is contributing to a derail but I do feel I need to get this out of my system.
On August 28 2021 10:24 Manit0u wrote: While I agree with this I am of the opinion that they've kinda mismanaged their IPs. Most of their fans feel really strong about each IP (just try and recall the SC vs WC3 mudslinging) and I guess they felt mistreated and cheated?
WoW was a HUGE success but its success started leaking into other games which begun to look more and more "warcrafty". Common complaint with D3 was that it was way too bright, colorful and cheerful - big departure from the previous grimdark and gothic entries. Then Hearthstone is basically just WoW the card game...
That was a common complaint but the art direction isn't the problem with Diablo 3. The problem with Diablo 3 was that it was a legitimately bad game at launch.
Let me bring you back to 2012 and talk about how the game worked.
Playing the game wasn't possible during launch because the servers were slammed to hell. Error 37 if you want a trip back in history.
The gameplay loop was simply atrocious. The core component of Diablo 2 was that it was a hack and slash game with a randomized loot system. What made Diablo 2 special was the breadth of the skill tree and loot system (eg. it wasn't deep but it offered a lot of options) that allowed for a lot of customization that would work with all difficulties.
You'd go through one difficulty, go through another with more skills and items to play with, go through the next difficulty with even more skills and items to play with. The game would change the enemies around (eg. more immunities) and the new items and your expanded skill tree you obtain helps you deal with these new challenges. You'd collect loot, trade loot with friends and so forth. Its got a great gameplay loop, especially for LAN parties for those that still remember them.
Diablo 3 not only made the game punishingly hard at Inferno difficulty, it had none of the breadth of Diablo 2. You wouldn't find good loot a significant amount of the time and the Legendary Items were also shit. They were items with better stats and mostly useless special effects. They also catered loot drops for your character, which completely killed part of the fun of holding onto other class items to trade to friends. Its an exceedingly tedious game and, perhaps worst of all, boring.
The expansion didn't really fix this game completely, they went the other way and had the loot system drop Legendary items everywhere. Its to the point that you don't even bother picking up them up because every third item is a Legendary.
Then we've got the whole Auction House. People like to talk about the Real Money Auction House but the real cancer was the Auction House itself.
Even if the story and art direction was good, it would still be a horrible game. It was actually unfun to play.
I wouldn't mind if they started mixing the IPs a bit. Instead of colorful Diablo why not release WarCraft ARPG? Overwatch should be StarCraft: Ghost revived as a team based FPS. WoW should be sidelined for next gen MMO, this time perhaps targeted at mature audiences and set in the Diablo universe.
I think they lost a lot of fans and faith when they abandoned some darker themes and started making everything PG.
I'm starting to wonder when things started to go so wrong for them? When the big WoW money started coming in? After the merger with Activision?
Is it possible to find a single point in time when Blizzard fully embraced corporate culture and started caring more about money than the people (both customers and their own employees)?
"Dark" themes don't make a good game. Good games are good games. Blizzard just hasn't been making good games for a long time. And if they have an interesting game in Overwatch, they don't know what to do with it and somehow end up destroying their own product by making it play worse and worse while trying to address player concerns.
Hearthstone is a good example. Its a fun game until they ramped up the number of expansion sets per year and the number of legendaries in those sets. Its near impossible for newer players or returning players to play the game because you need the right cards to have fun and you can't get those cards because the crafting is extremely expensive, disenchanting gives awful value and card nerfs don't get a whole load to dust to compensate. The only way to keep up is to either keep playing the game religiously and/or blow heaps of cash. Which is intentional but can be done without making it hard for new/returning players.
Diablo 3 was the sign that Blizzard is no longer a good developer. But tone isn't the problem with their games. They're either bad from the start or end up being bad because they're unsure of how to deal with player base issues.
many people refer to blizzard as a singular entity for the sake of brevity, but it's really comprised of multiple different teams responsible for different aspects or different franchises. although it's not anywhere close to a 1:1 analogy, i liken to how authors have very little communication with the people who eventually illustrate their novel covers/jackets.
there was a team that handled just cinematics, there was a team that worked on just diablo games. dustin browder transferred to heroes of the storm along with parts of his team when LotV was wrapping up. decision making is obviously very different as it is helmed as a large publicly traded merger. so on and so forth.
as Nevuk mentioned, they're about as good as who they hire, and it's obviously been this way for quite some time, even without the hindsight.
it should honestly be no surprise that the work culture, even behind great results and great games, is quite toxic underneath. any enterprise out there that does exceedingly well, does so with some sort of cheap labour or poor work conditions. just a fact of life. zero surprise over here that riot games is like this, EA, activision itself, etc... were all terrible in their own ways. what we see or want to see is the final product that ends up in our hands. it's just the convenience that we enjoy that lets us so conveniently overlook the other details.
On September 06 2021 21:49 nanaoei wrote: many people refer to blizzard as a singular entity for the sake of brevity, but it's really comprised of multiple different teams responsible for different aspects or different franchises. although it's not anywhere close to a 1:1 analogy, i liken to how authors have very little communication with the people who eventually illustrate their novel covers/jackets.
there was a team that handled just cinematics, there was a team that worked on just diablo games. dustin browder transferred to heroes of the storm along with parts of his team when LotV was wrapping up. decision making is obviously very different as it is helmed as a large publicly traded merger. so on and so forth.
as Nevuk mentioned, they're about as good as who they hire, and it's obviously been this way for quite some time, even without the hindsight.
it should honestly be no surprise that the work culture, even behind great results and great games, is quite toxic underneath. any enterprise out there that does exceedingly well, does so with some sort of cheap labour or poor work conditions. just a fact of life. zero surprise over here that riot games is like this, EA, activision itself, etc... were all terrible in their own ways. what we see or want to see is the final product that ends up in our hands. it's just the convenience that we enjoy that lets us so conveniently overlook the other details.
Your argument here doesn't work for a multitude of reasons. If one of your teams does something wrong, you are responsible for it. Disagree? You think a platoon commander is off the hook if one of his teams does something wrong, despite the fact that he's not there to overlook every one of them at all times? Training, preparations, culture, and check-ups are required. If you can't handle that as a boss, you are the one who haven't done your job. Even if you had no idea anything was going on, the fact that you could have prevented it by just doing a better job makes you wholy responsible for what happened.
Also, authors often have very good control over their cover artists. Of course, 100% so if you are self published, but often you'll have a lot of say if it's through a publisher as well. They can overrule you, but why would they want to do that when a good relationship with the author is that much more important? Otherwise he takes his next book elsewhere
I will note that there's basically been a pattern since the beginning of game making :
Studio A mistreats employees, they leave to start Studio B, Studio B treats employees better and their games sell like crazy, then 10 years later the founders get bought out by the owners of Studio A and retire as gazillionaires at 35-40, leaving the same incompetent people that ran Studio A in charge of Studio B.
(This happened with Atari and Activision, and looks like it's happened with Activision and Blizzard, at least. And the incompetent people I'm referring to aren't any specific individuals so much as the class of people who winds up in charge from that group being a very specific type of incompetent)
On August 26 2021 08:16 Fleetfeet wrote: Wat. A lot of old blizzard titles are genre-defining. The diablo franchise will be heralded as a major pillar of the dungeon crawling genre for as long as the genre is around.
Diablo 1 was made by hungry people who had an (at the time) groundbreaking idea. Diablo 2 was made by people who had to prove they could top Diablo 1, and they did it. Diablo 3 was a C- paper turned in late, a low-effort title that followed the rubric and had a completely different visual style. Too clean with the saturation turned up instead of gritty and dark.
On September 08 2021 04:03 postcount69 wrote:Diablo 3 was a C- paper turned in late, a low-effort title that followed the rubric and had a completely different visual style. Too clean with the saturation turned up instead of gritty and dark.
StalkerTL wrote a very nice post just a few days ago, on this very page, that explains how the problem with Diablo 3 wasn't "the colours were too saturated". The actual horror atmosphere wasn't even present in Diablo 2, your character runs around slaying the majority of foes with ease and it's still a great game.
On September 08 2021 04:03 postcount69 wrote:Diablo 3 was a C- paper turned in late, a low-effort title that followed the rubric and had a completely different visual style. Too clean with the saturation turned up instead of gritty and dark.
StalkerTL wrote a very nice post just a few days ago, on this very page, that explains how the problem with Diablo 3 wasn't "the colours were too saturated". The actual horror atmosphere wasn't even present in Diablo 2, your character runs around slaying the majority of foes with ease and it's still a great game.
Dunno about that. I was pretty scared playing D2 for the first time at a pretty young age. The music, atmosphere, and gritty graphics does indeed make it quite scary, even if that wears off after the 300th time running through it grinding for legendaries
On September 08 2021 04:03 postcount69 wrote:Diablo 3 was a C- paper turned in late, a low-effort title that followed the rubric and had a completely different visual style. Too clean with the saturation turned up instead of gritty and dark.
StalkerTL wrote a very nice post just a few days ago, on this very page, that explains how the problem with Diablo 3 wasn't "the colours were too saturated". The actual horror atmosphere wasn't even present in Diablo 2, your character runs around slaying the majority of foes with ease and it's still a great game.
Dunno about that. I was pretty scared playing D2 for the first time at a pretty young age. The music, atmosphere, and gritty graphics does indeed make it quite scary, even if that wears off after the 300th time running through it grinding for legendaries
Diablo 1 was way scarier for me, but I played it when I was really quite young. The Butcher man. D2 has spookiness but especially act 2 and places like the arcane sanctum I got more high octane adventurer a la Indians Jones vibes, with the occasional bit of horror like Temple of Doom does.
Has there been any recent developments in Blizzard land on the issues in this topic?
I’ve seen they’ve removed a few lame but ultimately inoffensive bits of innuendo as quest names in WoW recently, anything actually impactful/meaningful though?
No, this is the phase where they hope this all burns out so they dont have to acknowledge employee demands or make any real meaningful changes. Y'know, Ubisoft strategy.
New lawsuit from Blizzard employees and a media workers union (a good sign that Blizzard employees may unionize?) over coercive union busting action like surveillance, and interrogation.
On September 11 2021 07:48 Emnjay808 wrote: Interesting to see if Blizz will do anything of substance before/during next year blizzcon (assuming COVID cases are down by then)
Rumor has it that there will be no Blizzcon next year regardless of covid situation.
God, I am so fucking glad this isn't just completely fading from the news. It may be exhausting and shitty, but its nice that this might not just be completely swept under the rug.
Bobby Kotick getting some SEC attention is also something I relish.
On September 21 2021 04:32 Zambrah wrote: God, I am so fucking glad this isn't just completely fading from the news. It may be exhausting and shitty, but its nice that this might not just be completely swept under the rug.
Bobby Kotick getting some SEC attention is also something I relish.
Inb4 someone comments about how Kotick is simultaneously a genius responsible for Activision’s successes and status as a financial juggernaut but powerless and impotent to prevent sexual harassment in the workplace.
On September 21 2021 04:32 Zambrah wrote: God, I am so fucking glad this isn't just completely fading from the news. It may be exhausting and shitty, but its nice that this might not just be completely swept under the rug.
Bobby Kotick getting some SEC attention is also something I relish.
Inb4 someone comments about how Kotick is simultaneously a genius responsible for Activision’s successes and status as a financial juggernaut but powerless and impotent to prevent sexual harassment in the workplace.
The classic mindset, "they deserve to make billions on billions of dollars because theyre such good and important managers, but also they have no idea whats going on in their company so nothing is their fault."
I'll never understand it, but hey, capitalism will drill that kinda mindset into you.
On September 21 2021 04:32 Zambrah wrote: God, I am so fucking glad this isn't just completely fading from the news. It may be exhausting and shitty, but its nice that this might not just be completely swept under the rug.
Bobby Kotick getting some SEC attention is also something I relish.
Inb4 someone comments about how Kotick is simultaneously a genius responsible for Activision’s successes and status as a financial juggernaut but powerless and impotent to prevent sexual harassment in the workplace.
Good. If they could handle several state-level investigations, they can handle a federal one, too. I firmly believe that if the Blizzard leadership we knew and loved could be aware of and complicit in such a terrible company culture, Big Bobby damn sure knew what he was doing, too. I hope they get asked a great many questions by a lot of different folks.
ActiBlizz's chief legal officer leaves, I guess the pile of shit stacking up is starting to stink too much for them to handle. Rats flee the sinking ship. I mean shit, theyre under how many investigations and lawsuits at this point, lol
On September 21 2021 04:32 Zambrah wrote: God, I am so fucking glad this isn't just completely fading from the news. It may be exhausting and shitty, but its nice that this might not just be completely swept under the rug.
Bobby Kotick getting some SEC attention is also something I relish.
Inb4 someone comments about how Kotick is simultaneously a genius responsible for Activision’s successes and status as a financial juggernaut but powerless and impotent to prevent sexual harassment in the workplace.
On September 21 2021 04:32 Zambrah wrote: God, I am so fucking glad this isn't just completely fading from the news. It may be exhausting and shitty, but its nice that this might not just be completely swept under the rug.
Bobby Kotick getting some SEC attention is also something I relish.
Inb4 someone comments about how Kotick is simultaneously a genius responsible for Activision’s successes and status as a financial juggernaut but powerless and impotent to prevent sexual harassment in the workplace.
By someone you mean Jimmy ?
Which prominent Jimmy?
We all knew Jim Raynor was a dirty bastard from the start.
On September 21 2021 04:32 Zambrah wrote: God, I am so fucking glad this isn't just completely fading from the news. It may be exhausting and shitty, but its nice that this might not just be completely swept under the rug.
Bobby Kotick getting some SEC attention is also something I relish.
Inb4 someone comments about how Kotick is simultaneously a genius responsible for Activision’s successes and status as a financial juggernaut but powerless and impotent to prevent sexual harassment in the workplace.
By someone you mean Jimmy ?
Which prominent Jimmy?
We all knew Jim Raynor was a dirty bastard from the start.
Kerrigan supposedly knew, but the rest of us are going off second hand psychic information.
On September 21 2021 04:32 Zambrah wrote: God, I am so fucking glad this isn't just completely fading from the news. It may be exhausting and shitty, but its nice that this might not just be completely swept under the rug.
Bobby Kotick getting some SEC attention is also something I relish.
Inb4 someone comments about how Kotick is simultaneously a genius responsible for Activision’s successes and status as a financial juggernaut but powerless and impotent to prevent sexual harassment in the workplace.
By someone you mean Jimmy ?
Which prominent Jimmy?
I meant our very own JJimmyRaynor who seems to idolize Kotick and usually always come to his defense whenever this type of news is out.
Bobby Kotick and Andrew Gordon, head of Goldman Sachs investment banking division in Los Angeles, created Cove Management as a company to manage a private Gulfstream III private jet they jointly owned. They hired former actress Cynthia Madvig as a flight attendant.
In 2006, pilot Phil Berg allegedly began a pattern of sexual harassment towards Madvig. She reported this to Gordon, who ignored her complaints. Shortly after she reported this harassment, Kotick fired her.
In January 2007, Madvig filed a lawsuit for sexual harassment, wrongful termination, failure to prevent sexual harassment, and retaliation against her for reporting sexual harassment. Kotick, Gordon, and Berg denied all allegations in February 2007. At this time, they were represented by law firm Sullivan & Cromwell.
In April 2007, Kotick, who led the defense, switched attorneys to Christensen, Glaser, Fink, Jacobs, Weil & Shapiro. Patricia Glaser advised them to settle for $200,000. Kotick refused on principle, alleged by the arbitrator that "[he] would not be extorted and that [he] would ruin the Plaintiff and her attorney and see to it that Ms. Madvig would never work again."[21]
Christensen, Glaser et al stopped representing Kotick in December 2007. Kotick hired the firm Bingham McCutcheon and then, in April 2008, also hired Gibson Dunn & Crutcher. Kotick, Gordon, Berg, and Cove settled with Madvig in April 2008, paying $200,000 plus Madvig's legal fees of $475,000.
Kotick paid Glaser's firm $200,000 in September 2007, stating that amount was a full settlement of their fees and costs. Glaser disagreed, claiming that the total amount owed was over $1 million. Following Kotick's settlement with Madvig, his dispute with Glaser's firm went into arbitration. In February 2009, Glaser's firm was awarded $938,458 plus $479,898 for legal fees and costs incurred in the arbitration, for a total of $1.42 million.
Kotick, who during the Madvig case stated that "[he] was worth one-half billion dollars and he didn't mind spending some of it on attorneys' fees" rather than settle, asked the court to reduce the award by $111,753. The court denied this request and ordered Kotick to pay Glaser in full. Kotick appealed to the California Court of Appeal. On July 6, 2010, the appeal court affirmed the lower court's ruling.
Let's see how this one will go for him seeing how he has a history of ignoring worker's sexual harassment claims.
There was a period where Google Image pictures of Bobby Kotick were so inundated with pictures of him with devil horns photoshopped on that he had to ask in an interview for people to stop because it was effecting his dating life.
You know youre a grade A piece of shit when you get google, the pictures that come up are of you with devil horns.
Ayyy, Bobby "Literally the Devil" Kotick may not receive a bonus! I doubt it, executives don't get held accountable, thats part of the appeal of being an executive, all of the money with non of the responsibility, but on the slim chance the negligent executives of Activision Blizzard dont get bonuses. that'd be what they deserve. A fraction of what they deserve really, a small fraction, but its more than usually happens!
Yesterday, the California Department of Fair Employment and Housing (DFEH) filed a motion to intervene in a potential settlement between the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) and Activision Blizzard. The motion argues that the DFEH’s own trial against Activision Blizzard will be irreparably damaged by the conditions of said settlement. The settlement includes a clause which requests that Activision Blizzard be able to remove any allegations of sexual harassment from the personnel files of settlement claimants, effectively destroying evidence that is essential to the DFEH’s own trial.
The DFEH met with both Activision Blizzard and the EEOC on the 5th of October to inform both parties of its plan to intervene. Normally, it would have to wait seven days before filing its intervention. Instead, due to the grave harm the DFEH sees in a potential settlement, it has filed the motion ex parte, which allows it to be filed instantly if the court finds it reasonable. The DFEH justifies this ex parte request by citing the settlement clause that would allow Activision Blizzard to scrub the sexual harassment allegations.
This would not be the first time Activision Blizzard has supposedly done so either. Two months ago, the DFEH accused Activision Blizzard of shredding evidence that could reflect on the company poorly during its case. This, coupled with Activision Blizzard’s recent decision to hire a union-busting firm, does not reflect well on the company’s previous claims to Kotaku that it is being totally co-operative with the DFEH’s investigation.
Kotaku reached out to the DFEH and Activision Blizzard, but neither party responded by time of publication.
Good to know there was never a shred of good faith on Blizzard's part. After being caught shredding evidence once, they're going to try to just do it again, but even sneakier and legally binding this time. Fuck them.
The long and short is that the DFEH case has been led by two lawyers that previously worked for the EEOC, and while working for the EEOC they investigated Activision Blizzard in relation to the claims that have led to the settlement. The settlement that they are now objecting to.
If true this would be a conflict of interest, a breach of professional ethics, and a violation of Californian law on the conduct of attorneys. Per the memorandum:
"Specifically, two DFEH attorneys—who play leadership roles within the organization—previously served as EEOC who helped to direct the EEOC's investigation into Commissioner's Charge No. 480-2018-05212 against Activision Blizzard, Inc. These same attorneys then proceeded to represent DFEH in connection with these intervention proceedings, which seek to oppose the consent decree that arose out of the very investigation they helped to direct while at the EEOC."
This is a breach of the California Rule of Professional Conduct, and the EEOC claims it applies to all of the DFEH's attorneys on the case. Making matters worse is that the DFEH seems to have belatedly realised this itself, and tried to fudge its way out in some unconvincing ways. The EEOC's memorandum claims that it basically hired new lawyers then, a few hours later, served an appeal that clearly must have had involvement from the two lawyers in question.
"After being informed of this conflict, DFEH retained new counsel but appears to have filed the present intervention motion just hours after this counsel was retained, strongly suggesting that the motion is a product of the prohibited representation. For this reason, the intervention motion should be disallowed and DFEH attorneys should be barred from providing work product to, or advising, new counsel in connection with these intervention proceedings."
The two lawyers in question had been directly confronted by the EEOC about this conflict of interest prior to these latest legal documents. When this happened, the lawyers simply left the call: " DFEH Attorney 2 began to speak regarding the merits of the intervention motion, but Ms. Park reiterated EEOC's objections regarding the conflict-of-interest rules [...] After EEOC counsel continued to voice objections to discussing the merits of the case with DFEH attorneys, Ms. Wipper and DFEH Attorneys 1 and 2 disconnected from the call."
On October 12 2021 06:47 Zambrah wrote: Any lawyers know if this basically means ActiBlizz is now basically off the hook for it’s awful mistreatment of employees?
Cause I’m getting tired of bad people getting away with shit.
That seems to be a core tenet of the US "justice" system. The results are often apparently not causally related to what happened or what people did, but instead more about some weird technicalities and who spends more money on lawyers.
On October 12 2021 06:47 Zambrah wrote: Any lawyers know if this basically means ActiBlizz is now basically off the hook for it’s awful mistreatment of employees?
Cause I’m getting tired of bad people getting away with shit.
Pretty sure "being on the hook" was never in the cards to begin with. That's not how the justice system works in America. As a big corporation, you have all the rights of regular people, but none of the consequences
@17:24 "it also calls into question the integrity of the underlying investigation itself"
To put this in Starcraft terms Bobby Kotick just said : "you call down the thunder ... and i'll reap the whirlwind".
Activision admitted to no wrong doing in their settlement with the EEOC. The DFEH has a giant mountain of very sophisticated allegations to prove. ATVI MIGHT admit to specific mistakes by certain, individual employees. However, ATVI is a long way off from admitting to systemic problems.
Good luck to the DFEH in getting ATVI to admit to systemic problems.
On October 12 2021 06:47 Zambrah wrote: Any lawyers know if this basically means ActiBlizz is now basically off the hook for it’s awful mistreatment of employees? Cause I’m getting tired of bad people getting away with shit.
this is nothing new dawg. its par for the course in the USA since 1776. Blackstone's ratio was exaggerated 10 fold by founding father Ben Franklin. Franklin's world view creates a lawless frontier where only the most productive survive.
On October 12 2021 06:47 Zambrah wrote: Any lawyers know if this basically means ActiBlizz is now basically off the hook for it’s awful mistreatment of employees? Cause I’m getting tired of bad people getting away with shit.
That seems to be a core tenet of the US "justice" system. The results are often apparently not causally related to what happened or what people did, but instead more about some weird technicalities and who spends more money on lawyers.
if the EEOC's allegations are correct i would not characterize the DFEH's actions as violating a "weird technicality". It could well be the former EEOC lawyers had some axe to grind with their former employer. Either way, these DFEH lawyers should not be working on the same case with a different agency without the EEOC's express written consent. They took with them all kinds of privileged and confidential info.
It took the EEOC and DFEH 1.5 years to divide up the work and create a workshare agreement. This thing has been a a clusterfuck for years now. Its well within the realm of possibility that ATVI knew the EEOC and DFEH have been infighting for a long time.
Thank goodness Jimmy's back to explain to us how America works, and how it would be shitty that Activision Blizzard abuses their employees, except that billionaires are just so damn cool. How were we getting by before?
On October 20 2021 11:44 NewSunshine wrote: Thank goodness Jimmy's back to explain to us how America works, and how it would be shitty that Activision Blizzard abuses their employees, except that billionaires are just so damn cool. How were we getting by before?
Long overdue tbh, I've been waiting a month for his commentary.
On October 12 2021 06:47 Zambrah wrote: Any lawyers know if this basically means ActiBlizz is now basically off the hook for it’s awful mistreatment of employees?
Cause I’m getting tired of bad people getting away with shit.
Pretty sure "being on the hook" was never in the cards to begin with. That's not how the justice system works in America. As a big corporation, you have all the rights of regular people, but none of the consequences
I watched the Viritual Legality video, and I can certainly understand why some of those lawyers make millions, even though I also got a bad taste in my mouth. It is hard to grasp that how information came about can be considered much more important than what is true and really happened.
I would not say they face "none of the consequences". The bad international press and damaged reputation for the company where big hits, probably much worse than losing a low-profile lawsuit in court. This will not be forgotten quickly. They also had to pay a generous settlement, which had the intention to quickly enable both parties put this behind them.
If this case fizzles out now, I believe it can still make it easier for women to work in tech companies in the future.
On October 21 2021 05:43 Slydie wrote: If this case fizzles out now, I believe it can still make it easier for women to work in tech companies in the future.
I really wished I could share your enthusiasm, but considering none of the people who are in a position to do anything got even as much as a smack on the wrist, my doubts are higher
On October 21 2021 05:43 Slydie wrote: If this case fizzles out now, I believe it can still make it easier for women to work in tech companies in the future.
I really wished I could share your enthusiasm, but considering none of the people who are in a position to do anything got even as much as a smack on the wrist, my doubts are higher
Do we even know what was done internally? The company would certainly keep this under the radar, but that does not mean they did nothing. This case has been very damaging for the company, and other companies watching should take notice.
They've fired some people, but none of the people seem to have been c-suite types.
Aka the people paid absurdly grotesquely inflated salaries because they're supposed to have so much responsibility. Except for the responsibility for knowing whats going on in their company apparently.
Bobby Kotick and that strata of "leadership," if it can be even called that, needs the same purge that Blizzard leadership got, there is no excuse for them to do otherwise that isn't rooted in rich people refusing to accept consequences for their own negligence or worse.
On October 21 2021 05:43 Slydie wrote: If this case fizzles out now, I believe it can still make it easier for women to work in tech companies in the future.
I really wished I could share your enthusiasm, but considering none of the people who are in a position to do anything got even as much as a smack on the wrist, my doubts are higher
Do we even know what was done internally? The company would certainly keep this under the radar, but that does not mean they did nothing. This case has been very damaging for the company, and other companies watching should take notice.
Bobby Kotick is still CEO. Aka; nothing of importance was done.
Activision Blizzard Inc. Chief Executive Officer Bobby Kotick has asked the video game publisher’s board to cut his total compensation to $62,500, following an investigation into allegations of sexual harassment.
Kotick received $154.6 million last year, mostly in the form of stock awards, in a controversial pay package that faced opposition by a number of investor groups.
The announcement comes after the company failed to convince a California court on Friday to temporarily halt an ongoing sexual harassment and discrimination case. California’s civil rights agency sued the maker of “Call of Duty” in July, accusing it of fostering a “frat boy” culture.
Activision denied some claims while taking steps to punish those accused. It recently ousted 20 employees, it said, and called off an event for its biggest annual convention in February.
“The guardrails weren’t in place everywhere to ensure that our values were being upheld,” Kotick said in a letter to employees dated Oct. 28. “In some cases, people didn’t consistently feel comfortable reporting concerns, or their concerns weren’t always addressed promptly or properly. People were deeply let down and, for that, I am truly sorry.”
Kotick’s pay package ballooned in 2020, largely due to stock awards of nearly $150 million. It climbed more than 400% from $30.1 million in 2019. His new package will be a 99.96% pay cut.
Kotick’s new pay would now receive is the lowest amount California law will allow for people earning a salary, according to a statement Thursday. He has also asked not to receive any bonuses or equity.
The company will increase the percentage of women and non-binary people in its workforce by 50% and invest $250 million to accelerate opportunities for diverse talent, it said in the statement.
Kotick said he’ll launch a zero-tolerance harassment policy, and take steps to increase visibility on pay equity and waive required arbitration of sexual harassment and discrimination claims.
Well. I know better than to assume this turns out to be genuine accountability, but it kinda looks like it if I squint. And face the other way. Even so, I can't remember if I've ever heard of a CEO willingly giving up all their pay like this. Not that he needs it though. I'm more keen on seeing if new policies, enforcement, and culture begin to emerge. This is a whisper of a start.
The fact you've never heard of it means that he is almost definitely not doing it because he feels bad, theres definitely something behind the scenes going on, either he was genuinely at risk of losing his position and is doing this to save it, or hes got some other angle going on.
On October 29 2021 01:17 NewSunshine wrote: Well. I know better than to assume this turns out to be genuine accountability, but it kinda looks like it if I squint. And face the other way. Even so, I can't remember if I've ever heard of a CEO willingly giving up all their pay like this. Not that he needs it though. I'm more keen on seeing if new policies, enforcement, and culture begin to emerge. This is a whisper of a start.
The Nintendo president in 2014 took a 50% paycut to support the company through a difficult financial situation, rather than letting people go. Of course, the difference is that he didn't get caught doing something he shouldn't have, he just felt it was the right thing to do.
Their salaries are also more in line with what a CEO salary should be as well. In 2020, Shuntaro Furukawa, the current Nintendo president, had a salary of $2.4m ($0.73m basic + $1.67m bonus), which isn't bad by any means, but it's not "300 times more than your employees' average" that Bobby Kotick took in the same year
It is personally impacting him to the tune of about $100m post tax which you’d imagine has to hurt. There’s probably no meaningful difference in his financial position (what can an extra $100m buy that he can’t already afford) but these types use salary to keep score and compare themselves to their peers. He’s losing every “how much did you make?” game this year.
On October 29 2021 02:19 KwarK wrote: It is personally impacting him to the tune of about $100m post tax which you’d imagine has to hurt. There’s probably no meaningful difference in his financial position (what can an extra $100m buy that he can’t already afford) but these types use salary to keep score and compare themselves to their peers. He’s losing every “how much did you make?” game this year.
Well my heart really bleeds for this devastating loss, which as a lucky non-wealthy person, must certainly be of a magnitude I can't even comprehend. Let's hope this whole being-a-terrible-abusive-rape-factory-thing doesn't stop Blizzard from continuing to make mediocre games.
On October 29 2021 02:19 KwarK wrote: It is personally impacting him to the tune of about $100m post tax which you’d imagine has to hurt. There’s probably no meaningful difference in his financial position (what can an extra $100m buy that he can’t already afford) but these types use salary to keep score and compare themselves to their peers. He’s losing every “how much did you make?” game this year.
Well my heart really bleeds for this devastating loss, which as a lucky non-wealthy person, must certainly be of a magnitude I can't even comprehend. Let's hope this whole being-a-terrible-abusive-rape-factory-thing doesn't stop Blizzard from continuing to make mediocre games.
He still did it. Which sends a much bigger message than if he did not do it. Even if one does not like him, taking a pay cut like that is not something a lot of people would consider doing, and even less are going through with it. It does not undo wrongdoings in the past, but it raises an eyebrow in the sense that they might be willing to work on the future of the company.
Obviously could be a gigantic publicity stunt, and next year, after the transformation of the company has been declared a success, he will just receive a bonus double the normal size... it would be fitting - would be pure evil :-)
On October 29 2021 02:19 KwarK wrote: It is personally impacting him to the tune of about $100m post tax which you’d imagine has to hurt. There’s probably no meaningful difference in his financial position (what can an extra $100m buy that he can’t already afford) but these types use salary to keep score and compare themselves to their peers. He’s losing every “how much did you make?” game this year.
Well my heart really bleeds for this devastating loss, which as a lucky non-wealthy person, must certainly be of a magnitude I can't even comprehend. Let's hope this whole being-a-terrible-abusive-rape-factory-thing doesn't stop Blizzard from continuing to make mediocre games.
He still did it. Which sends a much bigger message than if he did not do it. Even if one does not like him, taking a pay cut like that is not something a lot of people would consider doing, and even less are going through with it. It does not undo wrongdoings in the past, but it raises an eyebrow in the sense that they might be willing to work on the future of the company.
Obviously could be a gigantic publicity stunt, and next year, after the transformation of the company has been declared a success, he will just receive a bonus double the normal size... it would be fitting - would be pure evil :-)
Its done to appease shareholders, who's been quite vocal about this whole debacle.
Kotick said he’ll launch a zero-tolerance harassment policy, and take steps to increase visibility on pay equity and waive required arbitration of sexual harassment and discrimination claims.
Could someone explain to me what's this "required arbitration"?
Oh shit ABK putting out some big UNION declaration stuff out there. You can tell they know it’s Halloween because they’re trying to scare the shit out of the c suite scumbags with the big U word.
Comical, Jen O'Neal steps down from Blizzard, leaving Mike Ybarra as the sole lead now.
So uh, Im not fuckin' alone in seeing this as unbelievably transparent right? Like, Mike Ybarra was always meant to be the sole lead and Jen O'Neal was only put there because they just had a major lawsuit break about how they dont promote women, thats the feeling here, right?
Apparently this is entirely new information internally, Blizzard is only just now communicating this now, so employees have just learned about this change in leadership.
On August 04 2021 04:07 KwarK wrote: Having a man and a woman share the job previously done by one person is an odd choice. I feel like if the board felt the woman was capable they’d have given it to her alone. Given the context of institutional sexism and harassment I can’t help but wonder if she’s there to give the appearance of listening to the complaints while her co-president was the board’s first choice.
And it only took them what, two months, to prove you right there. Its like they weren't even interested in making the effort of it appearing like anything else.
On August 04 2021 04:07 KwarK wrote: Having a man and a woman share the job previously done by one person is an odd choice. I feel like if the board felt the woman was capable they’d have given it to her alone. Given the context of institutional sexism and harassment I can’t help but wonder if she’s there to give the appearance of listening to the complaints while her co-president was the board’s first choice.
Hey you just quoted me and changed the name!
But, no aside from your rather bang on analysis (seemingly), I’m a tad confused.
If you are going down the road of appeasement via optics, surely then the worst thing you can then do is well, make it abundantly clear that’s what you were doing in the first place?
This is of course pre-supposing that Jen O’Neal isn’t genuinely stepping down to pursue something she wants to do, and that the company didn’t properly facilitate a genuine co-leadership model that she was fully enfranchised in.
If I was a betting man I’d say the former is plausible, likely given the lack of genuineness in the latter, but luckily for my bank balance I am not such a man
Im pretty sure they were banking on the Ubisoft, "lol just do nothing and it'll all blow over strategy," hoping they'd just be in and out of the news cycle and be able to do minimal actual work. They hoped wrong and now they look stupid.
Going to go out on a limb and claim that the "Quarterly report fell short of expectations" was the main contributor. Nothing ruins share holders' moods like earning only a little money, instead of all the money
In 2006, one of his assistants complained that he had harassed her, including by threatening in a voice mail to have her killed, according to people familiar with the matter. He settled the matter out of court, the people said.
Do you see this? He threatened to have a woman killed. He didn't even fucking deny it, lol.
The Activision spokeswoman said: "Mr. Kotick quickly apologized 16 years ago for the obviously hyperbolic and inappropriate voice mail, and he deeply regrets the exaggeration and tone in his voice mail to this day."
He definitely doesnt regret shit given the most prominent sexual harassment case he was involved in had Kotick telling a flight attendant, "I'm going to destroy you."
Is this finally enough to oust Bobby Fucking Kotick?
I wouldnt be surprised if it gets there if the SEC drops the hammer.
Im not really expecting anything though, board stands behind the scumbag and, as ever, rich people can do whatever they want without consequence. Even mild consequence.
Maybe his threats to have people killed have extended to board members as well. Can't see how or why they would continue to back him in this situation.
I mean, fucks sake when they appointed Jen O'Neal and Mike Ybarra as co-heads of Blizzard, they literally paid Jen O'Neal less. In a transparent attempt by ActiBlizz to attempt to make it look like women were treated equally at Blizzard they literally paid her less than her male counterpart.
You cannot make up the comically fucked up idiocy that ActiBlizz is up to.
Ooo this is very bad for the company. The board is willing to lose the “good employees”. And it won’t stop there. Also this Kotick news(about threatening someone’s life) is shocking to me. Fuck that scumbag.
I was primed to buy some ATVI. But not so much anymore. Maybe if it drops to sub-10.
Seeing this come out about Bobby is utterly unsurprising. Not only did I feel like something had to be off if he was overseeing Blizzard while they were carrying out their bullshit, but just... how many people act like Bobby and aren't ultra rich pricks that do whatever they want? The whole air about him reeks.
I hope Activision and Blizzard continue to burn for as long as they proffer kindling.
I'm just here to jump on the same bandwagon as the rest of the hashtag heroes in this thread.
I'd like to jump on this trending subject, spit out a cliché that shows I am on the right side of the issue on social media, feel proud, and proclaim myself a hero but accomplish nothing.
Thankfully due to cancel culture I can safely ignore the collateral damage—context, reason, due process, and nuance.
Phew. That was a lot of work! Now that I've satisfied my dopamine-driven desire for social validation on my favorite virtual soapbox for virtue-signaling, it's time to get back to binge-watching Netflix.
On November 17 2021 09:31 dr0pship wrote: I'm just here to jump on the same bandwagon as the rest of the hashtag heroes in this thread. I'd like to jump on this trending subject, spit out a cliché that shows I am on the right side of the issue on social media, feel proud, and proclaim myself a hero but accomplish nothing. Thankfully due to cancel culture I can safely ignore the collateral damage—context, reason, due process, and nuance.
Phew. That was a lot of work! Now that I've satisfied my dopamine-driven desire for social validation on my favorite virtual soapbox for virtue-signaling, it's time to get back to binge-watching Netflix.
The fuck are you talking about?
Good for you you can be snarkily cynical over the dreaded ‘cancel culture’ in a thread where people have, largely actually weighted the evidence to hand.
Interesting how you simultaneously can look into the souls of critical people and ascertain it’s all for social brownie points, but if it comes to Kotick’s ActiBlizz, well context, nuance etc are all needed.
On November 17 2021 09:31 dr0pship wrote: I'm just here to jump on the same bandwagon as the rest of the hashtag heroes in this thread. I'd like to jump on this trending subject, spit out a cliché that shows I am on the right side of the issue on social media, feel proud, and proclaim myself a hero but accomplish nothing. Thankfully due to cancel culture I can safely ignore the collateral damage—context, reason, due process, and nuance.
Phew. That was a lot of work! Now that I've satisfied my dopamine-driven desire for social validation on my favorite virtual soapbox for virtue-signaling, it's time to get back to binge-watching Netflix.
Interesting how you simultaneously can look into the souls of critical people and ascertain it’s all for social brownie points, but if it comes to Kotick’s ActiBlizz, well context, nuance etc are all needed.
Due process is axiomatic in our justice system in situations involving serious criminal allegations against a person. It is probably safe to assume that none of the "souls of critical people" posting about ActiBlizz topic on the internet fit into this category of person (i.e. a defendant). Also, the scientific community has reached a consensus on the neuropsychology of motivation in the context of social media that is indisputable. If you think the complex interactions between the human brain and predatory social media algorithms can be reduced to "social brownie points", you probably shouldn't be using the internet in the first place.
On November 17 2021 09:31 dr0pship wrote: I'm just here to jump on the same bandwagon as the rest of the hashtag heroes in this thread. I'd like to jump on this trending subject, spit out a cliché that shows I am on the right side of the issue on social media, feel proud, and proclaim myself a hero but accomplish nothing. Thankfully due to cancel culture I can safely ignore the collateral damage—context, reason, due process, and nuance.
Phew. That was a lot of work! Now that I've satisfied my dopamine-driven desire for social validation on my favorite virtual soapbox for virtue-signaling, it's time to get back to binge-watching Netflix.
Interesting how you simultaneously can look into the souls of critical people and ascertain it’s all for social brownie points, but if it comes to Kotick’s ActiBlizz, well context, nuance etc are all needed.
Due process is axiomatic in our justice system in situations involving serious criminal allegations against a person. It is probably safe to assume that none of the "souls of critical people" posting about ActiBlizz topic on the internet fit into this category of person (i.e. a defendant). Also, the scientific community has reached a consensus on the neuropsychology of motivation in the context of social media that is indisputable. If you think the complex interactions between the human brain and predatory social media algorithms can be reduced to "social brownie points", you probably shouldn't be using the internet in the first place.
But also, it's kinda like, we can have opinions about stuff, and post those opinions on an internet forum without doing it to virtue signal, or without adhering to due process. Maybe we can just think certain things? And maybe we're allowed to think that it's bad news when bad people do bad things? But sure, you've scored 1 Edge Point for today. Maybe there'll be another waiting for you tomorrow.
Let due process run its course. We are. But also we can post that he's obviously a shit dude who's done a ton of shit things, and that we think this is a shit situation for Blizzard, the people who work for Blizzard, and the people who loved their work. I'm not gonna mince words about this, if you wanna dunk on people for having opinions on world events, you can kindly fuck off.
On November 17 2021 09:31 dr0pship wrote: I'm just here to jump on the same bandwagon as the rest of the hashtag heroes in this thread. I'd like to jump on this trending subject, spit out a cliché that shows I am on the right side of the issue on social media, feel proud, and proclaim myself a hero but accomplish nothing. Thankfully due to cancel culture I can safely ignore the collateral damage—context, reason, due process, and nuance.
Phew. That was a lot of work! Now that I've satisfied my dopamine-driven desire for social validation on my favorite virtual soapbox for virtue-signaling, it's time to get back to binge-watching Netflix.
Interesting how you simultaneously can look into the souls of critical people and ascertain it’s all for social brownie points, but if it comes to Kotick’s ActiBlizz, well context, nuance etc are all needed.
Due process is axiomatic in our justice system in situations involving serious criminal allegations against a person. It is probably safe to assume that none of the "souls of critical people" posting about ActiBlizz topic on the internet fit into this category of person (i.e. a defendant). Also, the scientific community has reached a consensus on the neuropsychology of motivation in the context of social media that is indisputable. If you think the complex interactions between the human brain and predatory social media algorithms can be reduced to "social brownie points", you probably shouldn't be using the internet in the first place.
TL. net is not a court of law, lol. If youre unable to make the distinction between the court of public opinion and a literal court then its probably best that you not use the internet.
On November 17 2021 12:12 Zambrah wrote: TL. net is not a court of law, lol. If youre unable to make the distinction between the court of public opinion and a literal court then its probably best that you not use the internet.
An often used reasoning used to come spew filth with no consequence. That isn't to say you can't/shouldn't have/share an opinion. It's just to say that this kind of reasoning is justifying irrationalism.
Bobby Kotick threatened to have a woman killed (he doesn’t deny this, the spokesperson confirms it happened)
The board of directors stands by him.
But right, people on a StarCraft forum saying Mr Death Threats is a problem are the real issue, lol. Woe is poor Bobby “threatened to have someone killed,” Kotick. However will he survive with his billions of ill gotten dollars? We TLers must remember that our words carry the weight of God, and should exercise caution when discussing confessed death threat slinging CEOs of corporations with extensive cultures of sexual harassment lest Bobby Kotick get he fee fees huwt.
On November 17 2021 15:14 Zambrah wrote: Speaking of spewing filth without consequence,
Bobby Kotick threatened to have a woman killed (he doesn’t deny this, the spokesperson confirms it happened)
The board of directors stands by him.
But right, people on a StarCraft forum saying Mr Death Threats is a problem are the real issue, lol. Woe is poor Bobby “threatened to have someone killed,” Kotick. However will he survive with his billions of ill gotten dollars? We TLers must remember that our words carry the weight of God, and should exercise caution when discussing confessed death threat slinging CEOs of corporations with extensive cultures of sexual harassment lest Bobby Kotick get he fee fees huwt.
Just because he admitted it, doesn't matter, you can't talk about it. It hasn't been proven in a court of law, you're ignoring due process. I call Cancel Culture on this.
idk about this court thingy. that dude (kotick) settled cases. with admittance of guilt (threatening to have someone murdered). don't really need more than that, do you?
on a related note, I haven't seen anyone in this thread being subpoenaed because of their posting in this thread. hence we should be careful of decrying their posts as false. nothing of what they said has been proven wrong as of now.
On November 17 2021 09:31 dr0pship wrote: I'm just here to jump on the same bandwagon as the rest of the hashtag heroes in this thread. I'd like to jump on this trending subject, spit out a cliché that shows I am on the right side of the issue on social media, feel proud, and proclaim myself a hero but accomplish nothing. Thankfully due to cancel culture I can safely ignore the collateral damage—context, reason, due process, and nuance.
Phew. That was a lot of work! Now that I've satisfied my dopamine-driven desire for social validation on my favorite virtual soapbox for virtue-signaling, it's time to get back to binge-watching Netflix.
Interesting how you simultaneously can look into the souls of critical people and ascertain it’s all for social brownie points, but if it comes to Kotick’s ActiBlizz, well context, nuance etc are all needed.
Due process is axiomatic in our justice system in situations involving serious criminal allegations against a person. It is probably safe to assume that none of the "souls of critical people" posting about ActiBlizz topic on the internet fit into this category of person (i.e. a defendant). Also, the scientific community has reached a consensus on the neuropsychology of motivation in the context of social media that is indisputable. If you think the complex interactions between the human brain and predatory social media algorithms can be reduced to "social brownie points", you probably shouldn't be using the internet in the first place.
You can’t simultaneously say it’s a series of complex interactions, but also have a very myopic personal reading of it. Positioning oneself as the above the fray, due process contrarian guy is indeed itself a carving of a niche of identity, I should know having largely been that bloke on the internet forever.
I think you absolutely have a point in a wider sense, if you had framed it as a concern in this and many other cases as a wider phenomenon, rather than directly accusing every poster in this thread of being motivated by jumping on the bandwagon for kudos, then I’d have 100% agreed with you.
I can’t speak for others, I personally like discussing such issues on TL where it’s an old school forum and we’re mostly anonymous, and we can (relatively) soberly unpack issued precisely because I don’t like discussing these issues on social platforms for the exact reasons you outlined.
On November 17 2021 12:12 Zambrah wrote: TL. net is not a court of law, lol. If youre unable to make the distinction between the court of public opinion and a literal court then its probably best that you not use the internet.
An often used reasoning used to come spew filth with no consequence. That isn't to say you can't/shouldn't have/share an opinion. It's just to say that this kind of reasoning is justifying irrationalism.
It can be, alternatively it can just legitimately be a rationale for using information that isn’t necessarily admissible in a court of law to form opinions, rather than being tethered to the law.
Exhibit A, a person has settled sexual harassment claims to keep them out of court. Said person is top dog at a company with a litany of credible claims about a culture of harassment at their company. Said person admitted to threatening a woman over the phone. Said person had a company-wide email sent out that was so bad in acknowledging problems that it prompted a walk-out, and he even stuck another woman’s name on it to boot
Is said person likely to be a remotely good choice to steer the company away from the controversy and elicit the cultural reform needed?
Based on what’s out there it’s a pretty big no from me, best case for Kotick he’s not shown a sensitivity and adeptness in this domain, worst case he was an active participant.
Being an asshole isn’t a criminal offence though, and I would apply different standards to if I were judging criminality, or in a jury or whatever.
The kryptonite of any CEO...? Said group doesn't hold that many shares but still.
A day after Activision Blizzard employees staged a walkout and called for the resignation of CEO Bobby Kotick and several other executives, a group of Activision Blizzard shareholders with a total of 4.8 million shares is similarly asking for the company CEO’s resignation in a letter to the company’s board of directors. The walkout and the letter from shareholders follows a Wall Street Journal report that Kotick was aware of sexual misconduct allegations at the firm but did not inform his board of directors.
“In contrast to past company statements, CEO Bobby Kotick was aware of many incidents of sexual harassment, sexual assault and gender discrimination at Activision Blizzard, but failed either to ensure that the executives and managers responsible were terminated or to recognize and address the systematic nature of the company’s hostile workplace culture,” the shareholders, led by the Strategic Organizing Center (SOC) Investment Group wrote in a joint letter addressed to the company’s board of directors and shared with The Washington Post.
In addition to asking Kotick to resign, the group of shareholders is calling for the board’s two longest serving directors, Brian Kelly and Robert Morgado, to retire by December 31. Kelly is chairman of the Activision Blizzard board of directors and Morgado serves as lead independent director. The Activision Blizzard board of directors responded to the Journal’s article Tuesday, saying it remained “confident in Bobby Kotick’s leadership.”
Shareholders said in the letter that if Kotick, Kelly and Morgado don’t step down, they would not vote for the reelection of the current directors on the board at the next annual shareholder meeting in June, and would urge other shareholders to follow. The SOC chose to call for Kelly and Morgado’s resignations as they are the two longest standing members of the board, it told The Post, with Kelly serving since 1995, and Morgado since 1997.
Over 100 Activision Blizzard employees stage walkout, demand CEO step down
“After the new revelations, it’s clear that the current leadership repeatedly failed to uphold a safe workplace — a basic function of their job,” SOC executive director Dieter Waizenegger said in an interview. “Activision Blizzard needs a new CEO, board chair, and lead independent director with the expertise, skill set and conviction to truly change the company’s culture. We need to really have a reset button on the board.”
Activision Blizzard did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
Waizenegger said the SOC would like to see Kelly and Morgado replaced with diverse directors, and at least one of those seats to go to an Activision Blizzard employee that is not an executive.
The letter was also signed by Australian retail fund Future Super, Canada groups NEI Investments and Shareholder Association for Research & Education (SHARE) and an Australian fund for women, Verve Super. SHARE and Verve Super did not return inquiries about how many Activision Blizzard shares they own. The Washington, D.C.-based SOC Investment Group communicates with companies on behalf of union pension funds; in this case, those funds own about 3.8 million shares in Activision Blizzard, a small fraction of the firm’s total shares, roughly 779 million. These shareholders are dwarfed by the company’s top investors. Investment management company Vanguard holds over 64 million shares and BlackRock holds 58 million.
NEI Investments said it had decreased the number of shares it manages after the company was sued in July by a California state agency, alleging sexual harassment, gender-based harassment and pay inequality in the workplace.
“We have materially reduced our exposure to Activision since the story broke this summer. We now have a remnant position in two funds for a collective position that is less than 100,000 shares. But the exposure allows us to demand change through these types of coalitions,” NEI Investments said in a statement to The Post.
SHARE does not hold and shares in Activision Blizzard but said it signed the letter because the investment service is “concerned about the developing story at Activision Blizzard, and have been working with other investors and investor representatives to prod reform.” A statement from Future Super said it discussed with the Communications Workers of America, a major media labor union, about how best to support Activision Blizzard workers and decided to sign the SOC letter.
On Tuesday, over 110 employees walked out and protested at the Irvine, California, campus of major Activision Blizzard subsidiary Blizzard Entertainment after Kotick dismissed the Wall Street Journal report as misleading in a video message distributed to employees. It was the second employee walkout the company has seen in the past four months following the July lawsuit from the California state agency.
The SOC Investment Group, which represents a coalition of U.S. labor unions, has a track record of calling for executive compensation reform. In 2021, the group campaigned against hefty bonuses for executives at both Activision Blizzard and Electronic Arts. Organized labor has been keenly interested in Activision Blizzard since the filing of the July suit. In October, a group of Activision Blizzard employees asked Kotick to “voluntarily recognize a union” at the company. Activision Blizzard, like most American video game publishers and developers, is not unionized.
Over the past several months, Activision Blizzard has come under fire from many directions. In addition to the lawsuit from California’s Department of Fair Employment and Housing, it is also under investigation by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and is being sued in an August class-action suit from shareholders alleging violation of securities laws. (The SOC Investment Group is not a part of that class-action lawsuit from shareholders.) Additionally, there is an unfair labor practice complaint against the company, filed by workers and the Communications Workers of America.
“Votes against directors are very rare. Investors rarely take this step. You need to have a clear governance failure,” Waizenegger said. “And now we believe, we can point to not only an overpaid CEO, but we have very clear implications for recruiting talent at the company, and potential legal ramifications, with regulators like the California agency and the Securities and Exchange Commission … that’s an indication that something went very wrong.”
Sony Group Corp.’s PlayStation chief Jim Ryan criticized Activision Blizzard Inc. Wednesday for the game publisher’s inadequate response to an explosive news article alleging that Chief Executive Officer Bobby Kotick was aware of sexual misconduct and harassment allegations for years and that he had also mistreated women.
In an email to employees reviewed by Bloomberg, Ryan linked to the Wall Street Journal’s Tuesday report. He wrote that he and his leadership were “disheartened and frankly stunned to read” that Activision “has not done enough to address a deep-seated culture of discrimination and harassment.”
“We outreached to Activision immediately after the article was published to express our deep concern and to ask how they plan to address the claims made in the article,” he wrote. “We do not believe their statements of response properly address the situation.”
As one of the video game industry’s biggest console manufacturers, PlayStation has long had a close relationship with Activision, which produces hits like Call of Duty and World of Warcraft.
Activision Blizzard employees walked out Tuesday and called for Kotick’s resignation. The board issued a statement standing by Kotick.
Microsoft Corp.’s head of Xbox said he’s “evaluating all aspects of our relationship with Activision Blizzard and making ongoing proactive adjustments,” in light of the recent revelations at the video game publisher.
In an email to staff seen by Bloomberg News, Phil Spencer said he and the gaming leadership team are “disturbed and deeply troubled by the horrific events and actions” at Activision Blizzard Inc.
I honestly think Kotick would rather see the company go bankrupt than release control, also learned something today about him and the board:
Luke, you are VASTLY misstating Peter Nolan’s direct connections.
Peter Nolan worked with the guy that found Bobby and Brian the money for the ASAC II special acquisition venture that bought Activision back from Vivendi.
Peter Nolan got his board seat because he’s part of Leonard Green Partners. His seat was inherited from Nolan Wynn (no relation to Peter,) who yes, is directly related to casino mogul Steve Wynn. Yeah. That one. Nolan Wynn got his seat because he was directly involved in helping Bobby and Brian run the ASAC II scam.
And he got that seat even though it was completely against LGP policy, because Bobby Limpdick threw a hissy fit and threatened to destroy Activision if Uncle Steve’s (no, seriously, Bobby calls Steve Wynn that) kid didn’t get a board seat.
In other words, it all ties back to the scam Bobby and Brian ran on Vivendi to seize control of Activision back at a bargain basement price with other people’s money. There isn’t a single person on the board who cannot be directly linked to that scam.
My pleasure, and believe me, if you dig into the whole Vivendi/Activision ‘spinoff’?
Holy. Shit.
In fact, look up In re ACTIVISION BLIZZARD, INC STOCKHOLDER LITIGATION, Delaware Court of Chancery CA No 8885-VCL 2015. This case is a wild fucking ride.
Firstly, the court found that the entire spinout deal was basically rife with deliberate misrepresentation and fraud by Bobby Kotick and Brian Kelly personally, and awarded the largest settlement agreement in history.
It also draws you a very nice convenient road map of every scumbag and pedophile that Bobby and Brian are directly connected to, and who aided and abetted the deal. As well as Bobby and Brian’s routine of creating shell companies in the Cayman Islands and similar jurisdictions that they jointly control but pretend not to control.
Not coincidentally it also paints a very clear picture that Bobby demanded and received absolute dictatorial control over not only ActiBlizz, but the composition of the board, and insisted on knowing about absolutely everything going on within the company.
The blatant shitbaggery going on in that whole debacle got it quite literally into legal textbooks in 2013.
Some wonderful quotes:
“Wynn was a longtime friend of Kotick whose personal relationship with Kotick rose to the level of an immediate family member.” Nepotism, big check. “Steve Wynn viewed Kotick as a ‘potential son-in-law’ and protege.”
“Kotick arranged for Nolan and Elaine Wynn to join the Board. As noted, Nolan was the Managing Partner of Leonard Green, whom Kotick and Kelly had approached privately about their bid and who had backed their original offer to Vivendi. Leonard Green invested in ASAC.”
“The Committee tried to cap Kotick and Kelly’s voting power at 19.9%, but Kotick and Kelly refused. Lead Counsel had argued that Kotick and Kelly’s block of 24.9%, coupled with the sizeable stakes owned by ASAC limited partners, gave them working control”.
On November 19 2021 06:26 Emnjay808 wrote: We all know how this story ends. Sadly.
Yeah, Microsoft and Sony are looking to tank Acti-Blizzard stock and buy them out for cheap. Dont know how atractive Blizzard is to Sony but if they want a way into the PC market why not?
On November 19 2021 06:26 Emnjay808 wrote: We all know how this story ends. Sadly.
Yeah, Microsoft and Sony are looking to tank Acti-Blizzard stock and buy them out for cheap. Dont know how atractive Blizzard is to Sony but if they want a way into the PC market why not?
The funniest part is how blatant the whole "wait for the new CoD to release, THEN make a statement on it" angle is. Really fucking pathetic.
More than 1,500 Activision Blizzard Inc. employees have signed a petition calling for Chief Executive Officer Bobby Kotick’s removal, but it’s a group of just 10 people who will ultimately decide the embattled leader’s fate.
Since this week’s bombshell report in the Wall Street Journal that said Kotick was aware of sexual harassment and misconduct allegations at the company for years, didn’t inform the board of some of the reports, and that he himself was a perpetrator of misconduct, the video game industry has reverberated with calls to end his 30-year reign at the top. Shareholders, employees and even other gaming companies have criticized Activision’s lack of action.
Yet the board said in a statement Tuesday that it’s standing by him. In meetings across the company, executives relayed the same message.
Many people have questioned why the board is supporting Kotick when the situation at Activision has become publicly toxic and detrimental to the company’s stock. But this is a loyal group that has stood by the CEO through several massive crises before, such as his 2010 legal battle with the creators of Call of Duty. The board, mostly men, includes five people who have been connected to Activision for at least 18 years.
Two of the seats are occupied by Kotick and his longtime business partner, Brian Kelly, who together purchased their first stake in Activision in 1990. Kelly is the board chairman. Robert Morgado, the lead independent director, is a former CEO of Warner Music Group who was forced to resign after a controversial restructuring plan and has been on Activision’s board since 1997. Robert Corti is a longtime executive of Avon Products Inc. who has held a seat since 2003.
A fifth director, Peter Nolan, a senior advisor to private-equity giant Leonard Green & Partners, also began serving on Activision’s board in 2003 although he took a leave for several years following the company’s merger with Vivendi Games. He rejoined in 2014.
In other words, half of Activision Blizzard’s board has been together for nearly two decades. Three of the others — Dawn Ostroff, Casey Wasserman and Barry Meyer — are longtime Hollywood insiders who have undoubtedly brushed shoulders with Kotick during his many years in Los Angeles. Kotick has long been plugged into the movie business and even appeared in the 2011 film Moneyball. He launched an Activision film and TV division six years ago.
Reveta Bowers, one of only two women on the board, joined in 2018. She is an independent governance and organizational consultant for non-profit organizations. She previously served on the board of the Walt Disney Co. Hendrik Hartong III was vice president of marketing at Activision from 1996-1998. He’s currently the CEO of private equity firm Brynwood Partners and has been a director on Activision’s board since 2015.
There’s another reason the board may not be ready to show Kotick the door just yet: They’ve been making many millions of dollars together for years. In 2003, the year Corti and Nolan joined the board, Activision Blizzard was trading at around $2. Now, even after shedding about 32% this year due to the ongoing crisis, shares are hovering around $63.
Some current and former employees of Activision Blizzard have described the company’s upper ranks as a “boys’ club” where being friends with the top executives is the best way to get promoted. Perhaps that’s also why Kotick remains in charge.
I remember Kotick once in an interview complained that potential dates Googling him were lead to devil pictures made by angry gamers over his nickle and diming
Probably should have been relatively happy with that level of negative footprint online
On November 17 2021 20:25 WombaT wrote: It can be, alternatively it can just legitimately be a rationale for using information that isn’t necessarily admissible in a court of law to form opinions, rather than being tethered to the law.
Exhibit A, a person has settled sexual harassment claims to keep them out of court. Said person is top dog at a company with a litany of credible claims about a culture of harassment at their company. Said person admitted to threatening a woman over the phone. Said person had a company-wide email sent out that was so bad in acknowledging problems that it prompted a walk-out, and he even stuck another woman’s name on it to boot
Is said person likely to be a remotely good choice to steer the company away from the controversy and elicit the cultural reform needed?
Based on what’s out there it’s a pretty big no from me, best case for Kotick he’s not shown a sensitivity and adeptness in this domain, worst case he was an active participant.
Being an asshole isn’t a criminal offence though, and I would apply different standards to if I were judging criminality, or in a jury or whatever.
I agree in large part. To be clear, I am in no way standing up for this guy, or the things that they have been accused of in any sort. Kotnick has long been known to be poisonous to the companies he has been involved in. The fact much of this is finally coming to a head is pretty astounding. (Many of my friends work in the game industry, and I did as well for a bit...it was known then what a prick he was).
That said, too often these days the twitterverse just crucifies people for the fun of it. They are flat wrong as often as they are right.
The latter half of the article doesn't mince words.
"It’s also said that at a separate meeting on Friday “top executives of Activision Publishing relayed to Mr. Kotick that some employees wouldn’t be satisfied unless he resigned, according to those people”, and that “Mr. Kotick said he was ashamed of some of the incidents that had happened on his watch and apologized for how he has handled the unfolding problems”.
This is bullshit. Kotick took charge of a reborn Activision in 2008. Those “culture problems” he’s talking about are a systemic level of harassment, misogyny and abuse, fostered through years of cultural neglect and at times even reportedly committed and protected by Kotick himself.
The lawsuit which blew the doors off this whole thing became public knowledge in July. He has had months to address this. Instead during that time he oversaw the appointment of the first woman to co-lead Blizzard, only for her to quit after feeling “tokenized, marginalized, and discriminated against”, then saw it reported that Kotick himself took part in instances of abuse, including threatening in a voicemail to have one of his assistants killed.
He shouldn’t be “considering” quitting. He should have already done it."
All basically what we were all saying the scene looked like from all indicators. He always acted like the company just did all of this system-wide abuse without him knowing about it or being able to do anything about it, which was bullshit. It started trickling down when he unzipped.
On November 22 2021 08:16 Artisreal wrote: did you do a study of the gazillion of twitter posts to come to that assumption?
A cursory examination of the Twitterverse on basically any controversy involving a public figure should suffice.
I wouldn’t trust Twitter/social media outrage as far as I could throw it, even though occasionally it is directed in the correct direction.
Sober and well-considered, and grounded in the facts it ain’t. Not to say there isn’t occasionally great stuff posted for and a forum for grievance addressing provided.
O'Neal was making less than Ybarra? LOL. Richard Hoeg covers this topic is a very academic, middle of the road manner. He calls Activision-Blizzard the "dumbest company in the world" for paying O'Neal less than Ybarra. When you get comical hyperbole out of Hoeg .... you are doing something.
this is so dumb it is hard to believe it is real.
It is clear each successive Blizzard leader is making way less than their predecessor. Morhaime as CEO made a King's ransom. JAB as "president" prolly made a lot, but a fraction of what Morhaime made. The new twin heads were "co-leaders". WTF does a "co-leader" make? Prolly a tiny fraction of what Morhaime makes.
We've gone from an all powerful CEO/Founder to a Prez to twin "co-leaders". WTF? Blizzard is burning to the ground. Originally , the founders of Silicon and Synapse along with their first employees revelled in their culture of chaos. They named their company "Chaos" for a short time. Welp, its 30 years later and we've got a some chaos boys.
On November 23 2021 07:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote: O'Neal was making less than Ybarra? LOL. Richard Hoeg covers this topic is a very academic, middle of the road manner. He calls Activision-Blizzard the "dumbest company in the world" for paying O'Neal less than Ybarra. When you get comical hyperbole out of Hoeg .... you are doing something.
It is clear each successive Blizzard leader is making way less than their predecessor. Morhaime as CEO made a King's ransom. JAB as "president" prolly made a lot, but a fraction of what Morhaime made. The new twin heads were "co-leaders". WTF does a "co-leader" make? Prolly a tiny fraction of what Morhaime makes.
We've gone from an all powerful CEO/Founder to a Prez to twin "co-leaders". WTF? Blizzard is burning to the ground. Originally , the founders of Silicon and Synapse along with their first employees revelled in their culture of chaos. They named their company "Chaos" for a short time. Welp, its 30 years later and we've got a some chaos boys.
On November 23 2021 07:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote: O'Neal was making less than Ybarra? LOL. Richard Hoeg covers this topic is a very academic, middle of the road manner. He calls Activision-Blizzard the "dumbest company in the world" for paying O'Neal less than Ybarra. When you get comical hyperbole out of Hoeg .... you are doing something.
It is clear each successive Blizzard leader is making way less than their predecessor. Morhaime as CEO made a King's ransom. JAB as "president" prolly made a lot, but a fraction of what Morhaime made. The new twin heads were "co-leaders". WTF does a "co-leader" make? Prolly a tiny fraction of what Morhaime makes.
We've gone from an all powerful CEO/Founder to a Prez to twin "co-leaders". WTF? Blizzard is burning to the ground. Originally , the founders of Silicon and Synapse along with their first employees revelled in their culture of chaos. They named their company "Chaos" for a short time. Welp, its 30 years later and we've got a some chaos boys.
That’s, legitimately your take?
yes, what has Blizzard made in the past 5 years? Compare that to what Blizz made in any other 5 year time period. All the top talent is gone.
Look for ATVI to continue moving dev resources away from Irvine CA and towards Albany, NY. Doing so diffuses this situation and allows them to pay their employees less money. You can pay someone under 100K in Albany and they can easily afford a fully detached house not far from work. That employee can live the American dream. That can't happen if you pay that same employee 150K in Irvine.
On November 23 2021 07:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote: O'Neal was making less than Ybarra? LOL. Richard Hoeg covers this topic is a very academic, middle of the road manner. He calls Activision-Blizzard the "dumbest company in the world" for paying O'Neal less than Ybarra. When you get comical hyperbole out of Hoeg .... you are doing something.
It is clear each successive Blizzard leader is making way less than their predecessor. Morhaime as CEO made a King's ransom. JAB as "president" prolly made a lot, but a fraction of what Morhaime made. The new twin heads were "co-leaders". WTF does a "co-leader" make? Prolly a tiny fraction of what Morhaime makes.
We've gone from an all powerful CEO/Founder to a Prez to twin "co-leaders". WTF? Blizzard is burning to the ground. Originally , the founders of Silicon and Synapse along with their first employees revelled in their culture of chaos. They named their company "Chaos" for a short time. Welp, its 30 years later and we've got a some chaos boys.
That’s, legitimately your take?
yes, what has Blizzard made in the past 5 years? Compare that to what Blizz made in any other 5 year time period. All the top talent is gone.
Look for ATVI to continue moving dev resources away from Irvine CA and towards Albany, NY. Doing so diffuses this situation and allows them to pay their employees less money. You can pay someone under 100K in Albany and they can easily afford a fully detached house not far from work. That employee can live the American dream. That can't happen if you pay that same employee 150K in Irvine.
I mean I’m not sure where even to begin with this.
Your posting simultaneously argues that Bobby Kotick deserves his generous remuneration package because he’s a genius, but also that a huge, blue chip asset like Blizzard is withering on the vine from poor management. Of which, golly gee maybe Kotick has some influence in.
We’re not even remotely touching the sexual harassment stuff and your positions don’t make one iota of sense, and fuck me there’s a lot in that domain to unpack.
Not even remotely touching that stuff, which isn’t to say I underplay it’s importance, but in any business acquiring a brand, at huge expense that has an incredible reputation, a 20 year backlog of consistent quality and well, you do nothing positive with that new acquisition except tank its reputation, maybe you’re not all that great?
On November 23 2021 07:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote: O'Neal was making less than Ybarra? LOL. Richard Hoeg covers this topic is a very academic, middle of the road manner. He calls Activision-Blizzard the "dumbest company in the world" for paying O'Neal less than Ybarra. When you get comical hyperbole out of Hoeg .... you are doing something.
It is clear each successive Blizzard leader is making way less than their predecessor. Morhaime as CEO made a King's ransom. JAB as "president" prolly made a lot, but a fraction of what Morhaime made. The new twin heads were "co-leaders". WTF does a "co-leader" make? Prolly a tiny fraction of what Morhaime makes.
We've gone from an all powerful CEO/Founder to a Prez to twin "co-leaders". WTF? Blizzard is burning to the ground. Originally , the founders of Silicon and Synapse along with their first employees revelled in their culture of chaos. They named their company "Chaos" for a short time. Welp, its 30 years later and we've got a some chaos boys.
That’s, legitimately your take?
yes, what has Blizzard made in the past 5 years? Compare that to what Blizz made in any other 5 year time period. All the top talent is gone.
I mean, your boy Bobby openly said he wanted to take all the fun out of making games. He threw in some sexual harassment, death threats, and gross negligence of his duties as an executive for good measure, but he got the job done.
On November 23 2021 08:47 WombaT wrote: Not even remotely touching that stuff, which isn’t to say I underplay it’s importance, but in any business acquiring a brand, at huge expense that has an incredible reputation, a 20 year backlog of consistent quality and well, you do nothing positive with that new acquisition except tank its reputation, maybe you’re not all that great?
Blizzard is only a small part of ATVI. Since 2005, ATVI is doing very well.
If Kotick is total garbage with zero positive attributes why would the smart people at the top of Blizzard agree to form ATVI? Prolly because they thought Kotick could make them all giant piles of cash while simultaneously making great games. I don't think guys like Adham, Morhaime and Pierce were in it only for the cash. I think they loved making great games. They felt Kotick and Activision were the way to go. Who am I to question their decisions? They had a great, long run.
On November 23 2021 07:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote: O'Neal was making less than Ybarra? LOL. Richard Hoeg covers this topic is a very academic, middle of the road manner. He calls Activision-Blizzard the "dumbest company in the world" for paying O'Neal less than Ybarra. When you get comical hyperbole out of Hoeg .... you are doing something.
It is clear each successive Blizzard leader is making way less than their predecessor. Morhaime as CEO made a King's ransom. JAB as "president" prolly made a lot, but a fraction of what Morhaime made. The new twin heads were "co-leaders". WTF does a "co-leader" make? Prolly a tiny fraction of what Morhaime makes.
We've gone from an all powerful CEO/Founder to a Prez to twin "co-leaders". WTF? Blizzard is burning to the ground. Originally , the founders of Silicon and Synapse along with their first employees revelled in their culture of chaos. They named their company "Chaos" for a short time. Welp, its 30 years later and we've got a some chaos boys.
That’s, legitimately your take?
yes, what has Blizzard made in the past 5 years? Compare that to what Blizz made in any other 5 year time period. All the top talent is gone.
I mean, your boy Bobby openly said he wanted to take all the fun out of making games. He threw in some sexual harassment, death threats, and gross negligence of his duties as an executive for good measure, but he got the job done.
On November 23 2021 08:47 WombaT wrote: Your posting simultaneously argues that Bobby Kotick deserves his generous remuneration package because he’s a genius,
Kotick is a marketing and promotional genius. So is Don King. Many people I know have paid hundreds of dollars to watch Don King promoted fights fully knowing he murdered two people. Should we all stop watching Mike Tyson fights because he is a convicted rapist who was promoted by a convicted murderer? What can I say... I like watching Mike Tyson fights.
One can be a genius in one area and despicable in another. Like hundreds of millions of people.. I just want to watch a good fight.
Kotick acquired Mediagenic in 1991. It was worth almost nothing. It had no video game development pipeline of any kind. Therefore, Kotick deserves credit for building that company from nothing into Activision.
Since 1991 Kotick has pulled off some great moves. However, paying O'Neal less than Ybarra was a monster fuck up. Even the best make really bad mistakes. It is a mistake so bad and so obvious I wonder if he is doing this to provide cover for his buddy Brian Kelly. Kotick wants to be seen as the villian. I might be a calculated move.
If Kotick were anything less than a genius this wouldn't even be a topic because Mediagenic would've gone under.
On November 23 2021 12:52 NewSunshine wrote: I mean, your boy Bobby openly said he wanted to take all the fun out of making games.
Again, Kotick wants to be seen as the villian. Look at his part in "Moneyball". His public image is carefully calculated. This makes Kotick the lightning rod while his friends can go along undetected.
Also, taking the fun out of video games lines up with the old adage "don't mix business with pleasure". It is a signal to investors that Kotick is all business all the time.
Ironically, if Kotick truly did take the fun out of making games the guys at Blizzard wouldn't have been getting drunk and doing cube crawls at work in the middle of the week. Assuming that , in fact, that did happen.
Anyone that has spent any time in the gaming industry knows what a prick Kotick is. The industry as a whole is very incestual. People that have repeatedly sunk companies into the dirt get hired elsewhere by their buddies...only to repeat it. It is commonplace. Thinking he is a genius is ludicrous. The only thing he has really been good at is shenaniganning his way to the top. Please enlighten us on what exactly he has done that has actually been good for the industry, his employees, or the companies he has worked for.
Thinking Bobby Kotick is the kind of thinking that says someone is successful exclusively because of their own efforts, which is definitely only a small sliver that dictates how people become successful in this world. Bobby Kotick got hard carried by a ton of passionate game developers being exploited and wrung dry and he let them be molested and raped while they carried Activision to success.
On November 23 2021 08:47 WombaT wrote: Not even remotely touching that stuff, which isn’t to say I underplay it’s importance, but in any business acquiring a brand, at huge expense that has an incredible reputation, a 20 year backlog of consistent quality and well, you do nothing positive with that new acquisition except tank its reputation, maybe you’re not all that great?
Blizzard is only a small part of ATVI. Since 2005, ATVI is doing very well.
If Kotick is total garbage with zero positive attributes why would the smart people at the top of Blizzard agree to form ATVI? Prolly because they thought Kotick could make them all giant piles of cash while simultaneously making great games. I don't think guys like Adham, Morhaime and Pierce were in it only for the cash. I think they loved making great games. They felt Kotick and Activision were the way to go. Who am I to question their decisions? They had a great, long run.
On November 23 2021 07:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote: O'Neal was making less than Ybarra? LOL. Richard Hoeg covers this topic is a very academic, middle of the road manner. He calls Activision-Blizzard the "dumbest company in the world" for paying O'Neal less than Ybarra. When you get comical hyperbole out of Hoeg .... you are doing something.
It is clear each successive Blizzard leader is making way less than their predecessor. Morhaime as CEO made a King's ransom. JAB as "president" prolly made a lot, but a fraction of what Morhaime made. The new twin heads were "co-leaders". WTF does a "co-leader" make? Prolly a tiny fraction of what Morhaime makes.
We've gone from an all powerful CEO/Founder to a Prez to twin "co-leaders". WTF? Blizzard is burning to the ground. Originally , the founders of Silicon and Synapse along with their first employees revelled in their culture of chaos. They named their company "Chaos" for a short time. Welp, its 30 years later and we've got a some chaos boys.
That’s, legitimately your take?
yes, what has Blizzard made in the past 5 years? Compare that to what Blizz made in any other 5 year time period. All the top talent is gone.
I mean, your boy Bobby openly said he wanted to take all the fun out of making games. He threw in some sexual harassment, death threats, and gross negligence of his duties as an executive for good measure, but he got the job done.
On November 23 2021 08:47 WombaT wrote: Your posting simultaneously argues that Bobby Kotick deserves his generous remuneration package because he’s a genius,
Kotick is a marketing and promotional genius. So is Don King. Many people I know have paid hundreds of dollars to watch Don King promoted fights fully knowing he murdered two people. Should we all stop watching Mike Tyson fights because he is a convicted rapist who was promoted by a convicted murderer? What can I say... I like watching Mike Tyson fights.
One can be a genius in one area and despicable in another. Like hundreds of millions of people.. I just want to watch a good fight.
Kotick acquired Mediagenic in 1991. It was worth almost nothing. It had no video game development pipeline of any kind. Therefore, Kotick deserves credit for building that company from nothing into Activision.
Since 1991 Kotick has pulled off some great moves. However, paying O'Neal less than Ybarra was a monster fuck up. Even the best make really bad mistakes. It is a mistake so bad and so obvious I wonder if he is doing this to provide cover for his buddy Brian Kelly. Kotick wants to be seen as the villian. I might be a calculated move.
If Kotick were anything less than a genius this wouldn't even be a topic because Mediagenic would've gone under.
On November 23 2021 12:52 NewSunshine wrote: I mean, your boy Bobby openly said he wanted to take all the fun out of making games.
Again, Kotick wants to be seen as the villian. Look at his part in "Moneyball". His public image is carefully calculated. This makes Kotick the lightning rod while his friends can go along undetected.
Also, taking the fun out of video games lines up with the old adage "don't mix business with pleasure". It is a signal to investors that Kotick is all business all the time.
Ironically, if Kotick truly did take the fun out of making games the guys at Blizzard wouldn't have been getting drunk and doing cube crawls at work in the middle of the week. Assuming that , in fact, that did happen.
Most of the available evidence points out to Kotick behaving like a prick because he’s, just maybe a total prick.
He’s not some WWE wrestler where the promotion needs some people to play heel, we’re almost hitting ‘that wasn’t the thing it obviously is, he’s playing 4D chess’ territory.
If he wanted to take the heat off others, sure I could see that but his actions speak to entirely the opposite. If you wanted to do that, and I can see the utility in doing so, you don’t do things like writing extremely unpopular internal emails and stick someone else’s name on it.
Whether, ultimately those that pull the strings decide this is relevant or not is another thing, but that remains to be seen. He seems the type where the company’s successes are his, and the failures are someone else’s, so he’ll probably skate through as usual.
He’s certainly had many successes under his belt over the years, many he absolutely can take the credit for, just as Don King used to deliver great boxing bills.
Unlike King, Kotick is the head honcho on a big slew of charges and accusations atop a huge company, that he not only is accused of failing to reign in, but increasingly that he was partaking in such behaviour himself, with colleagues so I mean, it’s not really a case of him merely being a bad guy, but him directly bringing that into his job, or should I make it clear those are the accusations being made.
On November 24 2021 01:24 WombaT wrote: Unlike King, Kotick is the head honcho on a big slew of charges and accusations atop a huge company, that he not only is accused of failing to reign in, but increasingly that he was partaking in such behaviour himself, with colleagues so I mean, it’s not really a case of him merely being a bad guy, but him directly bringing that into his job, or should I make it clear those are the accusations being made.
Most claims are merely accusations. However, Kotick admits he either threatened to have someone killed or threatened to kill them directly. I'm uncertain EXACTLY how the death threat was phrased. Kotick admits he did it. The guy prolly has got more than 1 skeleton in his closet.
Not paying O'Neal the same as Ybarra seems like some kind of bizarre, intentional F.U. Ybarra and O'Neal requested the same pay. These actions make Kotick appear to be crazy.. I propose that he is not crazy at all. He is "crazy like a fox."
I think Kotick may be providing cover for Brian Kelly. Kotick soaks up all the headlines while Brian Kelly is away from the spotlight. I think if any one digs deep into Brian Kelly's financial gymnastics they'll find some bad stuff in his past and present. Brian Kelly has been with Activision since 1991. Kotick and Kelly must be lifelong friends. Activision was a handful of employees plus a fax machine in 1991.
Brian Kelly knows how to shuffle money between charities and private companies... you know .. to lower his tax bill. The media worries about whether or not Kotick touched a female employee's leg ten years ago while Brian Kelly funnels hundreds of millions or billions into his various charities in order to drastically lower his tax bill.
Not that there isn’t some sensationalism injected, especially on Twitter
Methinks people care rather less about some isolated incident of alleged impropriety than the boss presiding over a toxic work culture, and not reigning it in. Especially now said individual admitted threatening a woman.
In isolation, most of us have probably said some awful things while heated, but as part of an alleged pattern of company-wide impropriety, accusations it wasn’t taken seriously as a problem, add to that Kotick being accused of similar things and links start to form.
I can’t look inside the souls of people and ascertain motive, my reading of them paying Jen O’Neal less was they don’t take the concerns at all seriously, made a token appointment and to boot paid her less as a fuck you. The other is gross incompetence at image control, if nout else I don’t think these upper echelons are grossly incompetent.
The likes of Kotick want their employees to shut up and fuck off, and for this issue to go away.
As for Brian Kelly, that’s standard rich guy stuff. Do I like it? No If he’s actually gone beyond accounting wizardry into realms of impropriety, that’s certainly a story I would be interested in reading if anyone does the investigatory hard yards
IMO, Hoeg's analysis is spot on. Even if we assume 95% of the accusations are false and that the EEOC settlement is fair and reasonable.... the ATVI board is fucking Activision into the ground. Months to produce a press release filled with run-on sentences worse than mine. LOL.
On November 24 2021 01:24 WombaT wrote: He’s not some WWE wrestler where the promotion needs some people to play heel, we’re almost hitting ‘that wasn’t the thing it obviously is, he’s playing 4D chess’ territory.
At first blush your perspective seems 100% reasonable. However, as bizarre as it is Kotick is building up his Vince Mcmahon "evil promoter " image. It is a carefully crafted image built over many years. Here is just one example of building his image as the "evil promoter".
This is Bobby Kotick cutting costs and asking his general manager to do miracles with very little resources. He wants that image of himself out there in the public eye. In this story the baseball team had the best regular season record in the entire 28 team league... with Bobby Kotick cutting costs to the bone.
State treasurers from California, Massachusetts, Illinois, Oregon, Delaware, and Nevada are calling on Activision Blizzard to take more serious measures in addressing ongoing high-profile investigations and lawsuits about the company’s troubling culture. According to Axios, said treasurers have asked to meet with the board members at Activision Blizzard by December 20, threatening action against the company if it does not comply.
A quick recap: Activision Blizzard have been accused of fostering a “frat boy” work culture where women across multiple studios were sexually harassed, assaulted, and psychologically traumatized. A more recent Wall Street Journal investigation also unearthed that company CEO Bobby Kotick knew about the sexual misconduct allegations over the years, often downplaying them or actively participating in the misconduct. While the state of California was already involved in these Activision Blizzard proceedings, and a number of entities are calling for Kotick’s resignation, now more government figures are joining the chorus.
State treasurers, for those who don’t know, are in charge of overseeing financial matters that concern both its state and citizens. Treasurers in states like Illinois, for example, serve as auditors of public accounts. But why would a state treasurer care about what a video game company is doing? Well, some states have active investments in Activision Blizzard that are affected by the company’s stock prices—which in turn affects pension funds that people use in retirement. But having investments in Activision Blizzard also means these government shareholders have some power in dictating what the company does next. And right now, the treasurers aren’t happy with Activision Blizzard’s leadership.
“We’re concerned that the current CEO and board directors don’t have the skillset, nor the conviction to institute these sweeping changes needed to transform their culture, to restore trust with employees and shareholders and their partners,” Illinois state treasurer Michael Frerichs told Axios.
While Kotick has reportedly proposed that he would consider quitting his position as the CEO if he can’t fix the company’s culture, and Activision Blizzard has formed a Workplace Responsibility Committee “ to improve workplace culture and eliminate all forms of harassment and discrimination at the Company,” Frerichs told Axios that “there needs to be sweeping changes made in the company.”
“One thing the Treasurers bring is also a bit of a spotlight here and a little public pressure as well,” Frerichs told Axios, who also noted he was troubled by the news of unequal pay at the company. “So it’s not all just about the number of dollars and number of shares that we have.”
The Massachusetts state treasurer Deborah Goldberg shared similar concerns with Frerichs and was baffled that the Activision Blizzard board members stood by Kotick following demands for his resignation. Goldberg told Axios that Activision Blizzard’s case calls for “a true investigation” from “an outside investigator.” Even a proposed $18M settlement to the victims of harassment at Activision Blizzard doesn’t seem to be doing much in convincing people that the company is committed to deeper changes to the overall company culture.
“You can point to, ‘Hey, we paid the victims, we’re making them whole’,” Frerichs said, “But if you’re continuing a culture that creates new victims in the future, you are creating more risk for your company,” he said.
Pressure has been mounting on Activision Blizzard to address their work policy both outside and within the gaming industry. Head of Xbox Phil Spencer, PlayStation boss Jim Ryan, and Nintendo president Doug Bowser sent an email to their staff criticizing Activision Blizzard’s company culture. The National Legal and Policy Center also called upon Coca-Cola Chairman and CEO James Quincey to “immediately seek the resignation” of Kotick, who currently serves as a member of its board of directors.
While emails addressed to staff members at Xbox, Nintendo, and PlayStation lambasting Activision Blizzard are all well and good, at the end of the day they are not public stances that take Activision to task for their toxic work culture. It’s been an open secret that Activision Blizzard has had toxic leadership well beyond anything currently being litigated, so it feels long overdue that people with power are also taking a stance. Although it is new for treasurers to lean in on a gaming company, there’s precedent. In the past, treasurers have used funding like a carrot on a stick to influence operational changes in companies—like divesting Massachusetts’ pension to address climate change, according to Axios.
Public pressure that affects the bottom line on Activision Blizzard while also threatening structural change speaks truth to power better than an email can. Welcome to the resistance, state treasurers.
Workers engaged in creating software are not auto workers assembly a car on a factory line. Sacrificing a few years of your short career as a software craftsman or craftswoman for some miniscule chance some kind of proto-union forms is a fool's gambit.
if you do not like your job situation at a place that makes software... your best move is to leave and get a different job. Trying to start a union is a waste of time. The guys at the very top know this... and they know the best way to buttress the wave of anger is to get a bunch of angry people to fail at making a union. This way they start infighting. Once the peons start fighting the guys at the top win.
One of the big leaders of ABK just left Activision. Folks, its already over.
At this point .. I'd say that, for all intents and purposes , Jason Schreier is leading the "controlled opposition" against ATVI. Folks, its already over.
Sony and Microsoft also has sexual abuse skeletons in their collective closets. Here is a look at the skeletons of M$ and Sony. This is why Sony and M$ will never really stand up to ATVI. They have their own internal issues.
People are workers, no matter whether they work with their hands in accordance with a construction manual or with their hands typing code into programmes to make games.
there's no reason why they shouldn't profit from forming a union.
On December 07 2021 20:08 Zambrah wrote: People wouldnt have such "short careers" in game dev if they unionized and didn't get overworked, burnt out, and/or laid off en masse.
i cant say for certain but im pretty sure youre missing his point. unions dont do shit as far as solving the "short careers" of game developers. game developers are in the same boat as pretty much every other software developer/engineer etc.; where their skillset becomes quickly obsolete because the market moves faster than they can relearn their trade. by the time youve got 10 years of experience under your belt and you should theoretically be paid a handsome amount, youre fighting to keep your contract and competing against a new generation of 20 year olds that are able to do what you do already but better because they can do newer shit too
Yeah that's not how it works, you're never going to have a newly formed employee that can manage big projects without fucking up, or that knows the inside out of a codebase. Managing 2-3 coders is already a nightmare, i don't even want to think about a team of newbies being led by another recent graduate You make it sounds like experience wasn't worth anything in this field and thats horribly wrong. Also a dev should be like a doctor, always learning new stuff.
The whole point of a union is to present a (relatively) united front for grievances rather than be picked off raising them as an individual or in small groups.
If unions lead to infighting and dissipation of anger away from the head honchos, surely they’d be in favour and pushing for unionisation rather than very much the opposite.
On December 07 2021 21:08 Erasme wrote: Yeah that's not how it works, you're never going to have a newly formed employee that can manage big projects without fucking up, or that knows the inside out of a codebase. Managing 2-3 coders is already a nightmare, i don't even want to think about a team of newbies being led by another recent graduate You make it sounds like experience wasn't worth anything in this field and thats horribly wrong. Also a dev should be like a doctor, always learning new stuff.
yeah lets take 100 graduates. a decent amount of them stay in the field after 10 years or so, the rest will move on to other things. of those that stay in the field, how many do you think actually take on managerial roles? if you think all of them get managerial roles then youre living in fantasy land. the fact is the IT industry actually forces employees to take on managerial roles (ie. reduced or nil amounts of coding and more work related to people) more than typical workplaces. if you try and remain a coder, youre racing against the clock. this is unlike other typical white collar jobs (eg accountants/lawyers) where you could be doing pretty much the same job you were doing 20 years ago and you wouldnt be anywhere near at as much risk as workers in the software industry are. i mean its not even just software employees that experience this. to a lesser extent, architects and engineers also have a similar issue, it just doesnt endanger their livelihood as much.
On December 07 2021 20:08 Zambrah wrote: People wouldnt have such "short careers" in game dev if they unionized and didn't get overworked, burnt out, and/or laid off en masse.
i cant say for certain but im pretty sure youre missing his point. unions dont do shit as far as solving the "short careers" of game developers. game developers are in the same boat as pretty much every other software developer/engineer etc.; where their skillset becomes quickly obsolete because the market moves faster than they can relearn their trade. by the time youve got 10 years of experience under your belt and you should theoretically be paid a handsome amount, youre fighting to keep your contract and competing against a new generation of 20 year olds that are able to do what you do already but better because they can do newer shit too
Game devs burn out before they get lost in the tide of tech, really, really good game devs are wanted because of their knowledge of their trade beyond the tools involved, its very common for someone to work in, ie. 3DS Max, but the studio they apply to uses Maya, they just train you because doing so is easy compared to hiring someone who knows Maya but doesnt know how how to efficiently retopologize.
Game developers switch because of two big things, 1. game dev doesnt pay as much (organizing solves this by bargaining for better wages) 2. burnout (organizing solves this by not allowing employees to be worked for 80+ hour weeks), Game devs don't leave the industry because they have to switch tools, they simply learn the new tools and apply the important part, their foundational knowledge, to the new tools.
The employees who have been in the industry for a decade are often going to be employed by a studio anyways, the ones who aren't employed by a studio are not going to be hurting for work, let alone having to face any serious competition from young artists.
Companies are routinely hiring seniors, its WAY hard to break into games as a junior, experienced people aren't going to get pushed out by juniors when it comes to Game dev, the fundamental skills and knowledge seniors have about their craft and how it works for Game dev are too valuable.
Seniors leave games because they get overworked to oblivion and/or move on to a higher paying field that doesnt think people can be paid in "pAsSiOn."
On December 07 2021 21:08 Erasme wrote: Yeah that's not how it works, you're never going to have a newly formed employee that can manage big projects without fucking up, or that knows the inside out of a codebase. Managing 2-3 coders is already a nightmare, i don't even want to think about a team of newbies being led by another recent graduate You make it sounds like experience wasn't worth anything in this field and thats horribly wrong. Also a dev should be like a doctor, always learning new stuff.
yeah lets take 100 graduates. a decent amount of them stay in the field after 10 years or so, the rest will move on to other things. of those that stay in the field, how many do you think actually take on managerial roles? if you think all of them get managerial roles then youre living in fantasy land. the fact is the IT industry actually forces employees to take on managerial roles (ie. reduced or nil amounts of coding and more work related to people) more than typical workplaces. if you try and remain a coder, youre racing against the clock. this is unlike other typical white collar jobs (eg accountants/lawyers) where you could be doing pretty much the same job you were doing 20 years ago and you wouldnt be anywhere near at as much risk as workers in the software industry are. i mean its not even just software employees that experience this. to a lesser extent, architects and engineers also have a similar issue, it just doesnt endanger their livelihood as much.
Because someone who's actually good is way more useful training others to do the same, because of how rare it is. Anyone can shit code that works. Barely any people can produce code that works + is readable + is maintainable. People either get promoted or quit after 10 years ? You dont say! Do you know that engineers also stop using maths at some point and become managers ? Weird. What's weirder is that even at walmart it happens, you spend less and less time stocking up shelves and more time managing :O The mysteries of life never cease to amaze me
Considering how many games get released unfinished I dare to say the time managent part is pathetic and seems there's an issue in it. Senior employers are better at estimations, senior managers as well. So the short careers are quite bad for them companies. While players may tolerate it, they spend time after the project has been released on fixing the project instead of developping a new one(or additional content).
Its a great business model for corporate shittery, you can just push through games, have people preorder it which is already locked in income, and then release a huge turd that you polish for a year, make vague promises about making it good, get it to the point where its vaguely acceptable and get more sales the whole time! You get to force releases out for whatever fiscal quarter AND not have to give a fuck if it flops initially!
On December 07 2021 19:55 Artisreal wrote: People are workers, no matter whether they work with their hands in accordance with a construction manual or with their hands typing code into programmes to make games.
there's no reason why they shouldn't profit from forming a union.
or you sacrifice a few years of your career... a union never gets formed and you LOSE big time.
In the 1980s, Jesse Ventura attempted to form a union within Titan Sports. Titan Sports is a pro wrestling company more popularly known as the WWE. It got Ventura fired and blackballed from the highest paying pro wrestling company in the world. To get an idea of what Ventua lost: in 1990, both main event performers received 1 million dollars for 1 event. That is about 2.8 million today.
On December 07 2021 13:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote: "he inspired video game workers to organize".
Workers engaged in creating software are not auto workers assembly a car on a factory line. Sacrificing a few years of your short career as a software craftsman or craftswoman for some miniscule chance some kind of proto-union forms is a fool's gambit.
Wait, you think people at the top of companies want workers to start unions because they start infighting and management wins?
no, i did not generalize that all companies want all unions to always start unions. A union and the threat of a union is a great thing for certain types of work. For example, nurses, medical technologists, and auto assembly plant workers a union is great. A union doesn't work well in the field of software creation.
I think a person at the top of ATVI might have stooges within ABK screwing things up for ABK. Its called 'controlled opposition".
For all intents and purposes, Jason Schreier is now the leader of Bobby Kotick's "controlled opposition", Schreier is leading these software workers down a blind alley.
Ok so, don’t try to stop workers getting fucked over, in case you get fucked over?
It’s like arguing you shouldn’t leave an abusive partner in case that makes them mad.
Even your favoured catch-all solution to all industrial grievances, leaving your job and moving elsewhere is still liable to be subject to the same informal blacklisting anyway
On December 07 2021 13:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote: "he inspired video game workers to organize".
Workers engaged in creating software are not auto workers assembly a car on a factory line. Sacrificing a few years of your short career as a software craftsman or craftswoman for some miniscule chance some kind of proto-union forms is a fool's gambit.
Wait, you think people at the top of companies want workers to start unions because they start infighting and management wins?
no, i did not generalize that all companies want all unions to always start unions. A union and the threat of a union is a great thing for certain types of work. A union doesn't work well in the field of software creation.
I think a person at the top of ATVI might have stooges within ABK screwing things up for ABK. Its called 'controlled opposition".
For all intents and purposes, Jason Schreier is now the leader of Bobby Kotick's "controlled opposition", Schreier is leading these software workers down a blind alley.
On December 08 2021 03:42 WombaT wrote: leaving your job and moving elsewhere is still
it seems Jessica Gonzalez is following my advice.
i decided the video game industry was garbage around the age of 20. I based this on the kinds of work my classmates were getting in their co-op jobs. Granted that Job Recruiters all engage in "puffing" to make a job look great. Video game recruiters were the biggest liars by a large margin. I guess it took Jessica a while to figure it out. I wish her well. I think GTFO-ing is a great move by her.
What is unfortunate is that she is telling her former co-workers to stick around and "fight the good fight" for a union. She isn't exactly leading by example
On December 08 2021 03:42 WombaT wrote: leaving your job and moving elsewhere is still
In North America in the software development industry, the most common and reliable way to substantially increase your pay is to "job hop". The longest I ever held a permanent full time job is two years. I do not know any one in the software creation industry looking for a "job for life". I only hear about these people in these gaming news articles that paint these software workers as innocent, helpless victims.
On December 07 2021 13:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote: "he inspired video game workers to organize".
Workers engaged in creating software are not auto workers assembly a car on a factory line. Sacrificing a few years of your short career as a software craftsman or craftswoman for some miniscule chance some kind of proto-union forms is a fool's gambit.
Wait, you think people at the top of companies want workers to start unions because they start infighting and management wins?
no, i did not generalize that all companies want all unions to always start unions. A union and the threat of a union is a great thing for certain types of work. A union doesn't work well in the field of software creation.
I think a person at the top of ATVI might have stooges within ABK screwing things up for ABK. Its called 'controlled opposition".
For all intents and purposes, Jason Schreier is now the leader of Bobby Kotick's "controlled opposition", Schreier is leading these software workers down a blind alley.
Can you explain why this is necessarily the case?
Unions work best in an industry with a "Command and Control" production model. Software creation is the antithesis of that model.
90% of my family works in the medical industry. For them, unions are great. For Lab techs, X-Ray techs, nurses or even physicians... unions are awesome.
On December 07 2021 19:55 Artisreal wrote: People are workers, no matter whether they work with their hands in accordance with a construction manual or with their hands typing code into programmes to make games.
there's no reason why they shouldn't profit from forming a union.
or you sacrifice a few years of your career... a union never gets formed and you LOSE big time.
In the 1980s, Jesse Ventura attempted to form a union within Titan Sports. Titan Sports is a pro wrestling company more popularly known as the WWE. It got Ventura fired and blackballed from the highest paying pro wrestling company in the world. To get an idea of what Ventua lost: in 1990, both main event performers received 1 million dollars for 1 event. That is about 2.8 million today.
I would go with historic based decision making on that one rather than anecdotal evidence. Unions are the reason we have safety regulations, 5 day work weeks, paid holidays and much more.
YMMV based on country and proliferation of unions.
On December 07 2021 19:55 Artisreal wrote: People are workers, no matter whether they work with their hands in accordance with a construction manual or with their hands typing code into programmes to make games.
there's no reason why they shouldn't profit from forming a union.
or you sacrifice a few years of your career... a union never gets formed and you LOSE big time.
In the 1980s, Jesse Ventura attempted to form a union within Titan Sports. Titan Sports is a pro wrestling company more popularly known as the WWE. It got Ventura fired and blackballed from the highest paying pro wrestling company in the world. To get an idea of what Ventua lost: in 1990, both main event performers received 1 million dollars for 1 event. That is about 2.8 million today.
I would go with historic based decision making on that one rather than anecdotal evidence. Unions are the reason we have safety regulations, 5 day work weeks, paid holidays and much more.
Set up some unions in Burundi or Afghanistan and let me know how that goes. IF you have a fantastic productive, growing. dynamic economy THEN a good union can be very good.
The standard 5 day work week is the result of a growing economy and unprecedented levels of human productivity. That said, success has a thousand fathers. Thus, institutions every where claim they make possible any new level of human happiness. With the resources institutions like unions have they produce a plethora of plausible evidence to back up their claims.
Production comes before distribution. Otherwise, there is nothing to distribute. Unions are about insuring proper distribution of the fruits of human productive effort. Unions are not innovators of production.
The 5 day work week is a standard that is as extinct as the dinosaur. I didn't go down to working only five days per week until I was 22. None of my classmates worked 5 days a week before age 22 either. Then from 23 to 30 i worked 2.5 days a week...man was i lazy! From 31 to 34 I work 6 or 7 days a week.
The option of moving on to a better job was always a better threat to my current employer than any union. That option exists in a robust and vibrant economy. It appears that for Jessica Gonzalez it was more than a threat.
Well this good economy is pushing a lot of talented and passionate people out of the job they want to be doing. But I'm sure the mountain of mental and emotional duress she went through leading up to leaving Blizzard is just capitalism by design. A burnt-out worker is a good worker, apparently. Let's focus on what the employees should be doing differently and criticize them for it, since it's unrealistic to expect a CEO to act like a decent human being. Let's shill for the rich people since boys are just gonna be boys.
Most employees have no more power in company 2 than they had in company 1 because the individual employees are replaceable. Most employees aren’t superstars, they’re cogs in a machine. Only collectively do they have the power to demand their value. Unions are a necessary counterbalance to the disproportionate power of the company in any given individual labour negotiation.
On December 08 2021 09:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote: a good economy is better protection for workers than a good union.
Those are not mutually exclusive. When i compare working conditions in the US (with weak or no unions) in general to working conditions in Germany (with strong unions) in general, i think it is very, very obvious that unions do a lot of good.
The fact that billionaires in the US fight tooth and nail to prevent unions from happening is another very good indicators that unions work.
In the flurry of PR blows ActiBlizz keeps inviting/causing, we have another sexual harassment victim and her lawyer are going to be outside of Blizzard's Irvine office giving some sort of talk about their demands.
Looks like ActiBlizz won't be escaping their bad PR whirlpool any time soon, and good because it means they definitely wont be able to pull back into the shadows to avoid real change. Employees are too disgruntled, and the leadership is too incompetent to put a stop to the shitshow, lol.
Unions don’t just exist to strike when management are being shits anyway, they do all sorts of other things.
Some of more use in other industries than others. Least our one offers various perks on private healthcare, training programs in digital literacy, legal aid for members for issues outside company matters etc.
They aren’t just a bulwark against the company in disputes, they can provide support to workers where there’s no disputes at all.
I also want to point out that when someone is the victim of a volatile industry characterized by shitty management and a pervading air of sexual harassment, abuse, and discrimination, without unions or any other power to advocate for themselves, and they lose their job, then maybe yeah, they're a victim? Of a lot of things? Maybe billionaires aren't benevolent gods after all? Gee.
In June 2020, an article was published which highlighted the abuse, harassment and discrimination that occurred within Activision-Blizzard's offices. Since then, Activision-Blizzard leaders have continually abused, union-busted, and remained apathetic to the wishes of workers.
In the months since, we've seen CEO Bobby Kotick and the Board of Directors protect abusers and only hold perpetrators accountable after the events were brought to light by outside media. We've seen Activision hire law firm WilmerHale, known for union busting, to disrupt and impede the improvement efforts of Activision-Blizzard workers. We've seen Raven Software workers lured by the promise of promotion, only to be terminated shortly after relocation on top of the already underappreciated and severely underpaid working conditions of ABK workers across the company. These, and many other events have caused an alliance of Activision-Blizzard employees to initiate a work stoppage until demands are met and worker representation is finally given a place within the company.
After everything, the Board of Directors still claims to remain confident in Kotick's unfit and unproductive leadership. The Board of Directors includes: Reveta Bowers, Robert Corti, Hendrik Hartong III, Brian Kelly, Bobby Kotick, Barry Meyer, Robert Morgado, Peter Nolan, Dawn Ostroff, Casey Wasserman.
Bobby Kotick greatest game CEO in history, did his best to push for unionization, everyone praise Bobby Kotick, without him we might not see unionization in the games industry!
Yesssssssssss.
MAN THATS GOOD, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE LET THIS BE A SERIOUS STRIKE THAT GETS LOTS OF MEDIA ATTENTION. I want every game CEO to piss their pants and give Bobby Kotick deathstares when they see him in their local cocaine sex clubs.
On December 08 2021 09:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote: a good economy is better protection for workers than a good union.
Protection from what?
The management structure under which the worker exists.
On December 09 2021 23:27 NewSunshine wrote: I also want to point out that when someone is the victim of a volatile industry characterized by shitty management and a pervading air of sexual harassment, abuse, and discrimination, without unions or any other power to advocate for themselves, and they lose their job, then maybe yeah, they're a victim? Of a lot of things? Maybe billionaires aren't benevolent gods after all? Gee.
You realize that lying is legal in the USA right? its called "puffing". Almost all job recruiters frame the prospective job as some great job when it rarely is.
Maybe its just the Canadian in me... but I just don't trust loud-mouthed Americans making grandiose promises. So I don't fall for this BS. I guess some people fall for the BS and then label themselves as victims.
Any how.
puffing
n. the exaggeration of the good points of a product, a business, real property, and the prospects for future rise in value, profits and growth. Since a certain amount of "puffing" can be expected of any salesman, it cannot be the basis of a lawsuit for fraud or breach of contract unless the exaggeration exceeds the reality. However, if the puffery includes outright lies or has no basis in fact ("Sears Roebuck is building next door to your store site") a legal action for rescission of the contract or for fraud against the seller is possible. (See: fraud)
What do you do when you find out your dream job is actually garbage? You do what Gonzalez did ... you leave for a better job.
These are professionally employed adults who voluntarily chose to enter the job. These are not 3 year olds being napalmed by the local dictator. They live in a very rich, first world country. Canadian software developers flock to the USA for all the great work. The work is better than in Canada and it pays better.
Everyone I know who steps into a new job realizes they are on probation for the first three months and anything can get them fired. It says that type of thing in the "Terms of Employment" you have to sign. So, new hires are fully prepared to instantly BOLT if things go bad. THat's why, when you are leaving your present job you do so under cordial and diplomatic terms. This gives you options if the new job goes bad.
I now have my own company , but when I moved from permanent full time to hired gun I always made sure all my former employers were happy. So did all my classmates. This is common sense stuff. Due to laziness and lack of discipline a few people do choose to paint their own careers into a corner. When they do that's on them.
In conclusion, I do not view the 9,000 ATVI employees as helpless victims. They've got lots of options. The gaming media loves to paint everyone as helpless victims living under horrific circumstances. Bad news is great for views. Source: www.youtube.com
You do know that labor laws around the world differ greatly? The US has some of the worst in the western world. Just because the things are certain way, doesnt mean they SHOULD be this way. Also there is especially large room for improvemnt in game dev (not just in US).
Jimmy, I'm not talking about lying. I'm talking about sexual harassment, assault, and discrimination. Victims are victims. Cut the victim blaming or shut the fuck up.
Which, incidentally is a prominent topic and gripe for many people, least over here anyway. There’s space in at least most people’s hearts and minds for caring about multiple issues.
Sure healthcare workers can get another job if they don’t like the conditions anyway?
On December 11 2021 00:50 WombaT wrote: Ah the swivel to ‘other folks have it worse’
Which, incidentally is a prominent topic and gripe for many people, least over here anyway. There’s space in at least most people’s hearts and minds for caring about multiple issues.
Sure healthcare workers can get another job if they don’t like the conditions anyway?
Honestly, people are starving in Syria. So why even bother improving any aspect of anyone's lives? + Show Spoiler +
Yeah, that's a pretty fucked up message to send. You could join a union, but make sure you consider all the ways you're going to be punished if you do! Everything will be terrible!
Funny how that only seems to be the story when you're listening to companies that are trying desperately to avoid unions. Also wouldn't be surprised if this was another shitty email that Bobby wrote and told someone else to send for him.
Also, that language "You are signing a legal document!!!!Think about how scary that is!!!! A legally binding document!!!! But of course we totally support your legal right to do so"
Can you not just leave the union if you don't like it? It is not like you get put into union jail forever.
Also, pretty sure that nothing is stopping that positive culture they claim to have. If a worker has a problem, tells the manager, and the manager just fixes the problem, that can still happen and no one will complain. Unions only get involved if the problem doesn't get fixed.
When a company tells you that not joining a union is good for you is a very important sign that you should join a union as fast as possible.
So much for her commitment to collective action at ABK, eh? Now that she doesn't have to worry about retaliation for speaking up and organizing, her enthusiasm for the effort has only increased. That in and of itself shows everyone why unions are so important.
Egads, but she LEFT ActiBlizz? Are you trying to tell me its possible for someone to support something from the outside? Are you trying to enter the thought into my brain that someone can just... leave a job, a holy sacred job, and yet still work with and support former coworkers from outside of the corporation?!
Blasphemy. Insanity. Madness. I didn't think it possible.
On December 12 2021 04:19 Zambrah wrote: Egads, but she LEFT ActiBlizz? Are you trying to tell me its possible for someone to support something from the outside? Are you trying to enter the thought into my brain that someone can just... leave a job, a holy sacred job, and yet still work with and support former coworkers from outside of the corporation?!
Blasphemy. Insanity. Madness. I didn't think it possible.
Wait, you can help people even when that doesnt directly benefits you ? Some americans are going to throw up at this idea
On December 12 2021 04:19 Zambrah wrote: Egads, but she LEFT ActiBlizz? Are you trying to tell me its possible for someone to support something from the outside? Are you trying to enter the thought into my brain that someone can just... leave a job, a holy sacred job, and yet still work with and support former coworkers from outside of the corporation?!
Blasphemy. Insanity. Madness. I didn't think it possible.
Wait, you can help people even when that doesnt directly benefits you ? Some americans are going to throw up at this idea
Nobody tell Jimmy Raynor this, it would be too much of a shock to the system.
It’s better when people just leave jobs if there’s unacceptable conduct exhibited. Also Bobby Kotick is a genius
Several dozen Activision Blizzard workers remain on strike, while management has not met their demands to reinstate 12 contractors at Activision Blizzard-owned developer Raven Software who were laid off in December. Most of the contractors are quality assurance testers working on various Call of Duty titles.
In particular, Raven Software workers, tasked with checking for bugs and glitches in “Call of Duty: Warzone,” have stopped work for over seven weeks, multiple current employees told The Washington Post. Their absence comes at a time when numerous “Warzone” players, ranging from popular streamers to amateur gamers, have railed about the current state of that game on Reddit and social media, including citing game-breaking bugs, or issues that severely hamper gameplay.
“You can’t leave your game broken for a month. You’re going to lose a lot of players,” said James “JGOD” Godoy, a Call of Duty streamer, in a recent YouTube video. In the Dec. 29 video, he discussed the impact of Raven Software employees taking leave for the holidays while the game remained buggy.
The strike began Dec. 6, when over 60 Raven Software workers walked out in protest of their parent company laying off 12 of the studio’s quality assurance testers. It’s Activision Blizzard’s third work stoppage in six months since Activision Blizzard was sued in late July over sexual harassment and misconduct claims.
On Dec. 7, at least 200 Activision Blizzard workers across the company’s various studios walked out of work. As part of the current strike, which has no set end date according to those involved, workers have demanded that the company reverses the December layoffs and that all Raven quality assurance contractors receive full-time positions.
Activision Blizzard has not responded to employees’ demands, the employees said, although it sent out a letter to employees the same week the strike began to advise them “to consider the consequences” of signing union authorization cards. Unionization efforts are underway at the company, with employees pushing for a majority of signed cards so they can hold a vote on forming a union. In the meantime, over a dozen Minnesota-based workers were asked to work more closely with Raven developers on “Warzone.” Some had interpreted the request as Activision recruiting “scabs,” or strikebreakers, current employees told The Post.
“A lot of people felt upset that they were being asked to replace those who were let go,” said a current quality assurance tester for Activision in Minnesota, who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of retaliation.
Xbox and Lego have publicly said they are reconsidering their relationships with Activision Blizzard after allegations about a toxic corporate culture and sexual harassment came to light. Activision Blizzard did not respond when reached for comment on the companies’ announcements.
Activision Blizzard shared a statement with The Post on Jan. 5: “Activision is deeply committed to the well-being of all of our teams, including our QA workforce. Raven leadership has engaged in dialogue with its staff to hear concerns and explain the company’s overall investment in development resources.”
The statement also said Activision Blizzard would help any of the 12 laid off workers that might need relocation assistance.
“The reason the games are buggier is definitely due to the strike,” said a second quality assurance tester, currently on strike, who added that normally, massive bugs would be caught by quality assurance testers before making it to a live version of the game. “You can’t just lose some of your hardest working people and expect nothing to happen.”
Gamers playing “Call of Duty: Warzone” have noted that the game is filled with bugs that have diminished their enjoyment of playing it. Speaking to The Post, players also said they believe that cheaters are running rampant in game lobbies, despite the game introducing an anti-cheat software, which launched last year.
On Jan. 4, Activision sued EngineOwning, a Germany-based business that sells Call of Duty cheats, asking the court to stop the sale of software that provided players with in-game cheats.
Twitch streamers and YouTubers have recently posted a number of videos demonstrating their frustrations with glitches and the overall state of “Warzone.”
Some of the players who spoke with The Post said they were aware of the ongoing strike and voiced support for the workers, while others had not heard of the situation.
“It makes it even harder to support a game when Activision’s harassment issues toward women led to major walkout several months ago,” said Mondo Garvey, 25, who works for a construction company in Georgia. “And now with them laying off many of Raven’s employees and Raven workers going on strike, both companies are in shambles and the light at the end of the tunnel seems a lot dimmer.”
Shaylor Bemis, 28, a forklift driver and Call of Duty player from Ohio, said that while “Warzone” has had bugs since its March 2020 launch, the game has recently been plagued with more noticeable issues like an in-game cosmetic that turned players invisible, the game freezing when played on console systems and requiring players to restart, and guns that won’t work after players pick them up.
“It is very frustrating. I’m playing the game at my leisure. I play the game to blow off steam and stress and talk to some friends. I am not playing the game to be JGOD or Ice Man Isaac or trying to be part of Faze [Clan],” said Bemis, referencing popular “Warzone” content creators. “It’s almost at the point where the game is unplayable, and that outlet for me will be taken away from me.”
Asked about the issues, a spokesperson for Activision Blizzard referred to the company’s previous statement about Raven Software and noted a pair of recent posts on the state of work on Call of Duty games. On Jan. 13, the official “Call of Duty” account tweeted that teams were working on bugs and glitches across “Vanguard,” “Warzone” and “Modern Warfare.” It said it was aware of the invisible skins in “Warzone.”
Raven Software tweeted on Jan. 11 about a midseason update, adding: “These fixes are the first in a series and will not address all concerns at once. We appreciate your patience as we work on providing everyone with a fun, uninterrupted time in Caldera.”
“Things are still kind of broken,” said Jason “FaZe Jev” Eugene, who is known for his “Call of Duty” videos, in a Jan. 13 video about “Warzone,” which noted that in-game cosmetics he owns for weapons are still not showing up in the game. “We spent the last two months waiting for that camo to get fixed.”
Microsoft is nearing a deal to buy Activision Blizzard, the video game maker behind the “Call of Duty” franchise, in what would be the U.S. technology giant’s largest-ever takeover, people with knowledge of the matter said, Bloomberg News reports.
The transaction could be announced as soon as Tuesday, the people said, asking not to be identified because the information is private.
With three billion people actively playing games today and fueled by a new generation steeped in the joys of interactive entertainment, gaming is now the largest and fastest-growing form of entertainment. Today, Microsoft Corp. announced plans to acquire Activision Blizzard Inc., a leader in game development and interactive entertainment content publisher. This acquisition will accelerate the growth in Microsoft’s gaming business across mobile, PC, console and cloud and will provide building blocks for the metaverse.
When the transaction closes, Microsoft will become the world’s third-largest gaming company by revenue, behind Tencent and Sony. The planned acquisition includes iconic franchises from the Activision, Blizzard and King studios like “Warcraft,” “Diablo,” “Overwatch,” “Call of Duty” and “Candy Crush,” in addition to global eSports activities through Major League Gaming. The company has studios around the word with nearly 10,000 employees.
“Gaming is the most dynamic and exciting category in entertainment across all platforms today and will play a key role in the development of metaverse platforms,” said Satya Nadella, chairman and CEO, Microsoft. “We’re investing deeply in world-class content, community and the cloud to usher in a new era of gaming that puts players and creators first and makes gaming safe, inclusive and accessible to all.”
Who knows. But now that Microsoft has announced plans to buy Activision does that mean Microsoft can shitcan Bobby Kotick after the takeover is complete? Kotick's stock/payout deal if he leaves was with the board of Activision not Microsoft...
On January 18 2022 23:06 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Who knows. But now that Microsoft has announced plans to buy Activision does that mean Microsoft can shitcan Bobby Kotick after the takeover is complete? Kotick's stock/payout deal if he leaves was with the board of Activision not Microsoft...
On January 18 2022 23:06 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Who knows. But now that Microsoft has announced plans to buy Activision does that mean Microsoft can shitcan Bobby Kotick after the takeover is complete? Kotick's stock/payout deal if he leaves was with the board of Activision not Microsoft...
The wording is a bit weird in the official statement. It's:
Bobby Kotick will continue to serve as CEO of Activision Blizzard
followed by
Once the deal closes, the Activision Blizzard business will report to Phil Spencer, CEO, Microsoft Gaming
I'm not sure if that refers to two different things, and Kotick will stay in his role, or if that means Kotick will stay only until the deal closes. I think it's the latter, as you generally don't want two CEOs
How old is Kotick now? 60? I guess he just cashed out.
On December 12 2021 07:24 WombaT wrote: It’s better when people just leave jobs if there’s unacceptable conduct exhibited. Also Bobby Kotick is a genius
Welcome to the software dev industry in NA man. Based upon your frequent rebuttals to my advice I gather you've never worked in the software dev industry in NA?
Moving from job to job is general advice for any one regardless of how they are treated.Almost no one I graduated with eleven years ago is still with the same place. Most have worked for 3+ places by now. The few exceptions are a couple of guys who started their own shop right out of school.
The biggest and best software engineering school in Canada has its students moving across Canada and the USA 3 times a year for 5 years. The students work and/or go to school full time for 51 weeks a year.
I just completed a 4 week stretch working 250 hours. This is life in software development. Meh. The software development industry is not the USSR. If someone does not like it they can get a different kind of job.
Again if he stays till the transition is complete then what is stopping MS from just tossing him to the curb? His entire payout portfolio is with Activision and MS doesn't have to do anything in regards to that once they complete the merger.
On January 18 2022 23:35 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Again if he stays till the transition is complete then what is stopping MS from just tossing him to the curb? His entire payout portfolio is with Activision and MS doesn't have to do anything in regards to that once they complete the merger.
Nothing, he will be tossed to the curb as far as I understand. There's really no reason to have two CEOs, especially when one of them is so full of controversy as Bobby is. As someone mentioned above, he's also nearing 60, and has more than enough to live off of for the rest of his life (+whatever cashout he might get, depending on his contract), so he's prolly fine with it himself
On January 18 2022 23:35 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Again if he stays till the transition is complete then what is stopping MS from just tossing him to the curb? His entire payout portfolio is with Activision and MS doesn't have to do anything in regards to that once they complete the merger.
He's the CEO, so he certainly has a lot of leeway in negotiating the conditions of the acquisition, no? For all we know, he might have put a golden parachute there for himself.
On January 18 2022 23:35 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Again if he stays till the transition is complete then what is stopping MS from just tossing him to the curb? His entire payout portfolio is with Activision and MS doesn't have to do anything in regards to that once they complete the merger.
Nothing, he will be tossed to the curb as far as I understand. There's really no reason to have two CEOs, especially when one of them is so full of controversy as Bobby is. As someone mentioned above, he's also nearing 60, and has more than enough to live off of for the rest of his life (+whatever cashout he might get, depending on his contract), so he's prolly fine with it himself
How much stock does Kotick own? I think Kotick just made enough money today to start his own country.
On January 18 2022 23:35 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Again if he stays till the transition is complete then what is stopping MS from just tossing him to the curb? His entire payout portfolio is with Activision and MS doesn't have to do anything in regards to that once they complete the merger.
Nothing, he will be tossed to the curb as far as I understand. There's really no reason to have two CEOs, especially when one of them is so full of controversy as Bobby is. As someone mentioned above, he's also nearing 60, and has more than enough to live off of for the rest of his life (+whatever cashout he might get, depending on his contract), so he's prolly fine with it himself
How much stock does Kotick own? I think Kotick just made enough money today to start his own country.
Not quite sure. He had a 25% of Activision before it merged with Blizzard. I'm also not sure if he's sold anything since then. It's safe to say he has enough to live comfortably
Now M$ can threaten to move everything to Washington if the state of California doesn't back off. EEOC has proposed a settlement with ATVI. The state of California is not permitted to interfere in the EEOC settlement.
On January 18 2022 23:24 JimmyJRaynor wrote: How old is Kotick now? 60? I guess he just cashed out.
I'm sure having all the companies merged together under Microsoft's massive umbrella will only increase accountability, and that we won't see a barrage of honeyed statements from Microsoft about how this is really just wonderful, and that things won't just go back to business as usual for the employees at Blizzard and their victims.
I'm being sarcastic, if it's not obvious. This is a giant fuck you to everyone who moved, marched, and spoke up about the horrifying things that Blizzard and Activision were doing. Great news, everyone.
in the CNBC interview "Bobby" has got a can of Coke beside him. ROFLMAO.
On January 19 2022 01:11 NewSunshine wrote: This is a giant fuck you to everyone who moved, marched, and spoke up about the horrifying things that Blizzard and Activision were doing. Great news, everyone.
And, the state of California was in the process of fucking over any possible "victims" by their silly legal over reach. California's DFEH is more interested in scoring big headlines than helping out average workers.
Any how , the moral of this story is : don't rely on government bodies to improve your working life. Go out and find other work. Stand up to chance. Bet On Your$elf. Waiting for the state of California to make one's life right is a waste of time, energy, and it diminishes one's self esteem.
Jimmy, I know this is probably the 90,000th time I'm explaining this to you, but they're not "victims", they're victims. If you can't grasp that much, and you'd rather spend your time downplaying what they did, I'd rather spend my time not discussing the matter with you. They weren't just kind of a dick to people, they harassed and abused their employees.
On January 19 2022 01:11 NewSunshine wrote: This is a giant fuck you to everyone who moved, marched, and spoke up about the horrifying things that Blizzard and Activision were doing. Great news, everyone.
And, the state of California was in the process of fucking over any possible "victims" by their silly legal over reach. California's DFEH is more interested in scoring big headlines than helping out average workers.
Any how , the moral of this story is : don't rely on government bodies to improve your working life. Go out and unionize.
Sorry, you had some nonsensical bullshit smeared there, I got rid of it for you.
Oh my goodness, please let go of the old, venerable name of Blizzard and let it rest in peace. In addition to churning out crap they are now owned by Microsoft, good lord.
On January 19 2022 02:11 NewSunshine wrote: Jimmy, I know this is probably the 90,000th time I'm explaining this to you, but they're not "victims", they're victims. If you can't grasp that much, and you'd rather spend your time downplaying what they did, I'd rather spend my time not discussing the matter with you. They weren't just kind of a dick to people, they harassed and abused their employees.
meh, I've offered a remedy not post after post of polemics. They should do what Jennifer Gonzalez did and leave.
On January 19 2022 02:11 NewSunshine wrote: Jimmy, I know this is probably the 90,000th time I'm explaining this to you, but they're not "victims", they're victims. If you can't grasp that much, and you'd rather spend your time downplaying what they did, I'd rather spend my time not discussing the matter with you. They weren't just kind of a dick to people, they harassed and abused their employees.
meh, I've offered a remedy not post after post of polemics. They should do what Jennifer Gonzalez did and leave.
On January 19 2022 02:11 NewSunshine wrote: Jimmy, I know this is probably the 90,000th time I'm explaining this to you, but they're not "victims", they're victims. If you can't grasp that much, and you'd rather spend your time downplaying what they did, I'd rather spend my time not discussing the matter with you. They weren't just kind of a dick to people, they harassed and abused their employees.
meh, I've offered a remedy not post after post of polemics. They should do what Jennifer Gonzalez did and leave.
On January 19 2022 01:31 JimmyJRaynor wrote: in the CNBC interview "Bobby" has got a can of Coke beside him. ROFLMAO.
On January 19 2022 01:11 NewSunshine wrote: This is a giant fuck you to everyone who moved, marched, and spoke up about the horrifying things that Blizzard and Activision were doing. Great news, everyone.
And, the state of California was in the process of fucking over any possible "victims" by their silly legal over reach. California's DFEH is more interested in scoring big headlines than helping out average workers.
Any how , the moral of this story is : don't rely on government bodies to improve your working life. Go out and unionize.
Sorry, you had some nonsensical bullshit smeared there, I got rid of it for you.
Nah, its common sense. Got a garbage job and are a skilled, talented, hard-working professional? Look for other work.
In an interview, Kotick said the deal has nothing to do with the controversy surrounding Activision or calls for him to step down and that Spencer reached out to him last year. A person familiar with the discussions, who was not authorized to speak publicly, said Microsoft looked at Activision’s situation, given all the negative attention and pressure on Kotick, and wondered if the beleaguered CEO would be willing to do a deal.
Kotick initially didn’t want to sell, according to another person familiar with the talks, and also put the word out to see if any other company would outbid Microsoft. But at that point, Kotick had little leverage with his board amid the ongoing public scrutiny at his company.
In ATVI's entire lifetime the stock has almost never been above $95/share. If that price remains I think Kotick made a great deal for his shareholders.
On January 19 2022 01:31 JimmyJRaynor wrote: in the CNBC interview "Bobby" has got a can of Coke beside him. ROFLMAO.
On January 19 2022 01:11 NewSunshine wrote: This is a giant fuck you to everyone who moved, marched, and spoke up about the horrifying things that Blizzard and Activision were doing. Great news, everyone.
And, the state of California was in the process of fucking over any possible "victims" by their silly legal over reach. California's DFEH is more interested in scoring big headlines than helping out average workers.
Any how , the moral of this story is : don't rely on government bodies to improve your working life. Go out and unionize.
Sorry, you had some nonsensical bullshit smeared there, I got rid of it for you.
Nah, its common sense. Got a garbage job and are a skilled, talented, hard-working professional? Look for other work.
Jimmy, you seem to be missing the line that distinguishes between a job that sucks, and a job that violates your dignity and rights. But for all the sexual harassment, abuse, discrimination, and rape, I'd agree with your take. But unfortunately that stuff matters to people.
On January 19 2022 01:31 JimmyJRaynor wrote: in the CNBC interview "Bobby" has got a can of Coke beside him. ROFLMAO.
On January 19 2022 01:11 NewSunshine wrote: This is a giant fuck you to everyone who moved, marched, and spoke up about the horrifying things that Blizzard and Activision were doing. Great news, everyone.
And, the state of California was in the process of fucking over any possible "victims" by their silly legal over reach. California's DFEH is more interested in scoring big headlines than helping out average workers.
Any how , the moral of this story is : don't rely on government bodies to improve your working life. Go out and unionize.
Sorry, you had some nonsensical bullshit smeared there, I got rid of it for you.
Nah, its common sense. Got a garbage job and are a skilled, talented, hard-working professional? Look for other work.
Jimmy, you seem to be missing the line that distinguishes between a job that sucks, and a job that violates your dignity and rights. But for all the sexual harassment, abuse, discrimination, and rape, I'd agree with your take. But unfortunately that stuff matters to people.
and when the job violates your dignity it qualifies as a job that sucks. Thus, you look for different work. Just like Jennifer Gonzalez did. Just like many employees are currently doing right now.
Over 100 construction workers died in Canada in the past 5 years. To them I say... if your construction site is dangerous.... start looking for different work right now.
On January 19 2022 01:31 JimmyJRaynor wrote: in the CNBC interview "Bobby" has got a can of Coke beside him. ROFLMAO.
On January 19 2022 01:11 NewSunshine wrote: This is a giant fuck you to everyone who moved, marched, and spoke up about the horrifying things that Blizzard and Activision were doing. Great news, everyone.
And, the state of California was in the process of fucking over any possible "victims" by their silly legal over reach. California's DFEH is more interested in scoring big headlines than helping out average workers.
Any how , the moral of this story is : don't rely on government bodies to improve your working life. Go out and unionize.
Sorry, you had some nonsensical bullshit smeared there, I got rid of it for you.
Nah, its common sense. Got a garbage job and are a skilled, talented, hard-working professional? Look for other work.
Jimmy, you seem to be missing the line that distinguishes between a job that sucks, and a job that violates your dignity and rights. But for all the sexual harassment, abuse, discrimination, and rape, I'd agree with your take. But unfortunately that stuff matters to people.
and when the job violates your dignity it qualifies as a job that sucks. Thus, you look for different work. Just like Jennifer Gonzalez did. Just like many employees are currently doing right now.
Over 100 construction workers died in Canada in the past 5 years. To them I say... if your construction site is dangerous.... start looking for different work right now.
No, that qualifies as a situation where heads should roll, companies should get fined, and the people responsible fired. You don't get it.
Also please stop invoking Jennifer Gonzales, as though what she did supports your point. She left Blizzard and has since been busting her ass in support of the people still working there, attempting to organize a union. She ain't in your camp.
Also your construction metaphor is fucking garbage from top to bottom, and you can continue fucking off if you think there's merit to it.
On January 19 2022 07:33 NewSunshine wrote: Also your construction metaphor is fucking garbage from top to bottom, and you can continue fucking off if you think there's merit to it.
its a sad fact. people die in Canada on construction jobs every month. if this upsets you.. . it should. its brutal.
Nurses and construction workers face far more brutal conditions than the ATVI employees. For those that face the worst of the worst I think their best move is to find different work rather than waiting 3+ years for government agencies like the DFEH or the EEOC to improve things.
Tens of millions of people are constantly looking for better/different work. Good on them.
Sitting around waiting 3+ years for the DFEH and the EEOC to finally change things is a bad bet. When are these clowns going to stop fighting with each other and start addressing the issues? Its been a long long time.
On January 19 2022 07:33 NewSunshine wrote: Also please stop invoking Jennifer Gonzales, as though what she did supports your point. She left Blizzard and has since been busting her ass in support of the people still working there, attempting to organize a union. She ain't in your camp.
it isn't just Ms Gonzalez. There is a big exodus from Blizzard. Lots of employees are leaving. Good on them!
If everyone keeps leaving Blizzard then Blizzard is forced to increase their salary offers and improve their work environment.
On January 19 2022 01:31 JimmyJRaynor wrote: in the CNBC interview "Bobby" has got a can of Coke beside him. ROFLMAO.
On January 19 2022 01:11 NewSunshine wrote: This is a giant fuck you to everyone who moved, marched, and spoke up about the horrifying things that Blizzard and Activision were doing. Great news, everyone.
And, the state of California was in the process of fucking over any possible "victims" by their silly legal over reach. California's DFEH is more interested in scoring big headlines than helping out average workers.
Any how , the moral of this story is : don't rely on government bodies to improve your working life. Go out and unionize.
Sorry, you had some nonsensical bullshit smeared there, I got rid of it for you.
Nah, its common sense. Got a garbage job and are a skilled, talented, hard-working professional? Look for other work.
Jimmy, you seem to be missing the line that distinguishes between a job that sucks, and a job that violates your dignity and rights. But for all the sexual harassment, abuse, discrimination, and rape, I'd agree with your take. But unfortunately that stuff matters to people.
and when the job violates your dignity it qualifies as a job that sucks. Thus, you look for different work. Just like Jennifer Gonzalez did. Just like many employees are currently doing right now.
Over 100 construction workers died in Canada in the past 5 years. To them I say... if your construction site is dangerous.... start looking for different work right now.
Again, ATVI is not the USSR. You can leave.
Construction is an industry inherently fraught with some risk to your person, of course negligent safety practices may enhance that risk.
Making vidya games is not a job that inherently comes with sexual harassment as part of the package.
On January 19 2022 01:31 JimmyJRaynor wrote: in the CNBC interview "Bobby" has got a can of Coke beside him. ROFLMAO.
On January 19 2022 01:11 NewSunshine wrote: This is a giant fuck you to everyone who moved, marched, and spoke up about the horrifying things that Blizzard and Activision were doing. Great news, everyone.
And, the state of California was in the process of fucking over any possible "victims" by their silly legal over reach. California's DFEH is more interested in scoring big headlines than helping out average workers.
Any how , the moral of this story is : don't rely on government bodies to improve your working life. Go out and unionize.
Sorry, you had some nonsensical bullshit smeared there, I got rid of it for you.
Nah, its common sense. Got a garbage job and are a skilled, talented, hard-working professional? Look for other work.
Jimmy, you seem to be missing the line that distinguishes between a job that sucks, and a job that violates your dignity and rights. But for all the sexual harassment, abuse, discrimination, and rape, I'd agree with your take. But unfortunately that stuff matters to people.
and when the job violates your dignity it qualifies as a job that sucks. Thus, you look for different work. Just like Jennifer Gonzalez did. Just like many employees are currently doing right now.
Over 100 construction workers died in Canada in the past 5 years. To them I say... if your construction site is dangerous.... start looking for different work right now.
Again, ATVI is not the USSR. You can leave.
Construction is an industry inherently fraught with some risk to your person, of course negligent safety practices may enhance that risk.
Making vidya games is not a job that inherently comes with sexual harassment as part of the package.
yes, and so do you wait 3+ years for the DFEH and EEOC to quit fighting with each other to address the issues or do you do what many Blizzard employees have already done and leave?
the DFEH and EEOC recently got admonished by a California judge for their continued infighting. This is after 3+ years of fucking bullshit. All while alleged victims and the accused twist in the wind. What a fucking joke.
100 people over 5 years dead from possibly unavoidable accidents is not the same as all the people that get sexually harassed for less than no reason every year. That's why it's a shit metaphor, Jimmy. It's not an eventuality of doing business, it's behavior that should be landing the perpetrators in prison. Don't act like it's the same thing, it's slimey and disingenuous. One is an accident for no fault of anyone involved, with double-digit victims per year. The other is absolutely despicable, avoidable, and affects orders of magnitude more people. That's why it's a shit metaphor.
On January 19 2022 07:54 NewSunshine wrote: 100 people over 5 years dead from possibly unavoidable accidents is not the same as all the people that get sexually harassed for less than no reason every year. That's why it's a shit metaphor, Jimmy. It's not an eventuality of doing business, it's behavior that should be landing the perpetrators in prison. Don't act like it's the same thing, it's slimey and disingenuous. One is an accident for no fault of anyone involved, with double-digit victims per year. The other is absolutely despicable, avoidable, and affects orders of magnitude more people. That's why it's a shit metaphor.
I think Canadian Nurses and Ontario Construction workers face far more harsh circumstances than California video game employees. I sympathize with all of these people. They should do what millions do every week. Look for different work. Government agencies won't improve their working lives. Just look at what the EEOC and DFEH have done so far... and its been 3 years.
After 3 years a California judge must set the DFEH and EEOC straight...
This is a bit unseemly. I feel like I should sent the two of you to a mediator, never mind Activision getting involved in this. You apparently have been working well together for a very long time, and you'll have to be working well together in the future. It seems like not only the defendant but also some of these employees and former employees are going to get caught in the middle here and that's not appropriate
So my common sense approach of looking for work elsewhere ... an approach that tens of millions follow every week... an approach that has caused an exodus from Blizzard .... works. Waiting for the government is a bad bet.
I love your take is "why bother trying to fix the issue when you can just make it someone else's issue."
You do realize that just leaving a toxic workplace is going to inflict more harm on all the incoming employees that are going to replace you? The kind of self centeredness masquerading in the anti-work movement of mass resignations is a sign that the government refuses to enforce the rules on companies that it should be doing to protect people.
On January 19 2022 07:54 NewSunshine wrote: 100 people over 5 years dead from possibly unavoidable accidents is not the same as all the people that get sexually harassed for less than no reason every year. That's why it's a shit metaphor, Jimmy. It's not an eventuality of doing business, it's behavior that should be landing the perpetrators in prison. Don't act like it's the same thing, it's slimey and disingenuous. One is an accident for no fault of anyone involved, with double-digit victims per year. The other is absolutely despicable, avoidable, and affects orders of magnitude more people. That's why it's a shit metaphor.
I think Canadian Nurses and Ontario Construction workers face far more harsh circumstances than California video game employees. I sympathize with all of these people. They should do what millions do every week. Look for different work. Government agencies won't improve their working lives. Just look at what the EEOC and DFEH have done so far... and its been 3 years.
After 3 years a California judge must set the DFEH and EEOC straight...
This is a bit unseemly. I feel like I should sent the two of you to a mediator, never mind Activision getting involved in this. You apparently have been working well together for a very long time, and you'll have to be working well together in the future. It seems like not only the defendant but also some of these employees and former employees are going to get caught in the middle here and that's not appropriate
So my common sense approach of looking for work elsewhere ... an approach that tens of millions follow every week... an approach that has caused an exodus from Blizzard .... works. Waiting for the government is a bad bet.
I was assuming it was unavoidable for the sake of argument. Thank you for clarifying that neither of the two things in your shitty comparison are acceptable.
On January 19 2022 08:17 Sermokala wrote: I love your take is "why bother trying to fix the issue when you can just make it someone else's issue."
You do realize that just leaving a toxic workplace is going to inflict more harm on all the incoming employees that are going to replace you? The kind of self centeredness masquerading in the anti-work movement of mass resignations is a sign that the government refuses to enforce the rules on companies that it should be doing to protect people.
So, I remain at my dangerous job where workplace violations are occurring every week? Nah, I think I'll leave.
On January 19 2022 08:17 Sermokala wrote: I love your take is "why bother trying to fix the issue when you can just make it someone else's issue."
You do realize that just leaving a toxic workplace is going to inflict more harm on all the incoming employees that are going to replace you? The kind of self centeredness masquerading in the anti-work movement of mass resignations is a sign that the government refuses to enforce the rules on companies that it should be doing to protect people.
Why bother fixing any problems when we can point to people who have it worse, and tell them they're to blame for the toxic situation they're in because they didn't leave sooner? Hooray for victim blaming.
On January 19 2022 08:17 Sermokala wrote: I love your take is "why bother trying to fix the issue when you can just make it someone else's issue."
You do realize that just leaving a toxic workplace is going to inflict more harm on all the incoming employees that are going to replace you? The kind of self centeredness masquerading in the anti-work movement of mass resignations is a sign that the government refuses to enforce the rules on companies that it should be doing to protect people.
Why bother fixing any problems when we can point to people who have it worse, and tell them they're to blame for the toxic situation they're in because they didn't leave sooner? Hooray for victim blaming.
Just to clarify, the victims of the DFEH//EEOC infighting include the accused and some ATVI employees.
They continue to twist in the wind after 3.5 years of "investigating".
On January 19 2022 08:17 Sermokala wrote: I love your take is "why bother trying to fix the issue when you can just make it someone else's issue."
You do realize that just leaving a toxic workplace is going to inflict more harm on all the incoming employees that are going to replace you? The kind of self centeredness masquerading in the anti-work movement of mass resignations is a sign that the government refuses to enforce the rules on companies that it should be doing to protect people.
So, I remain at my dangerous job where workplace violations are occurring every week? Nah, I think I'll leave.
You are supposed to be protected from that dangerous job and should have an interest in the safety of your fellow workers. Constantly transiting from job to job and never having a care to fix the problems that keep coming up only benefits the companies to continue these damaging practices.
Do you think you are the only person at that dangerous job or that no one will ever work at that dangerous job again?
if I'm in a dangerous work environment I notify the appropriate authorities and leave. If the government agency is good then it gets fixed.. If the government-agency workplace investigation team is incompetent there is nothing else i can do.
First and foremost though... I leave. I don't stick around.
Peak capitalism, "I want to change the narrative around my shitty company, so instead of maybe doing something about the shittiness Ill just buy the press lolol," god I hate it here, lol. Solving problems by throwing money around instead of actually bothering to solve the fucking problem.
“Mr Kotick has been eager to change the public narrative about the company, and in recent weeks has suggested Activision Blizzard make some kind of acquisition, including of gaming-trade publications like Kotaku and PC Gamer, according to people familiar with him,” the report reads.
Microsoft Corp.’s planned acquisition of Activision Blizzard Inc. will come with an unexpected and perhaps unwelcome addition: a small group of unionized workers.
About three dozen people who work for an Activision-owned studio agreed to form the Game Workers Alliance Union, representatives for the group said Friday. They asked Activision to voluntarily recognize their union status. It would be the first union at a publicly traded video game publisher.
The group is composed of 34 quality assurance testers at Activision’s Raven Software, a team responsible for ensuring new content for Call of Duty games runs smoothly and without errors. It’s part of the Communications Workers of America, the largest union in the media industry.
For years, people from across the video game industry have proposed organizing as a solution to unhealthy work environments. Burnout is a prevalent issue in gaming, brought on by a culture of overwork, sexism and little job security. Employers have not embraced workers’ flirtations with unionizing, but last month, employees of a small independent studio called Vodeo Games became the first to organize in North America.
Activision has been mired in scandal since California sued the company last summer for claims of sexual harassment and discrimination. Workers at the company began handing out union cards last month, triggering a warning from management that employees should “take time to consider the consequences of your signature on the binding legal document presented to you.”
Workers at Activision’s Raven Software went on strikes starting Dec. 6 in protest of the company’s intent to dismiss a dozen contract testers. Quality assurance testers are generally paid the least of any game developers and are sometimes treated as disposable. At Raven, testers are frequently asked to work overtime and have talked of going nights and weekends for months straight.
Microsoft said this week that it will acquire Activision for $68.7 billion. Unionization at big tech companies like Microsoft is rare. When a 38-person group of Microsoft bug testers organized in 2014, the company eventually dismissed them.
At Activision, management hasn’t acknowledged the Raven strike or responded to the workers’ requests, representatives for the Game Workers Alliance Union said.
“It’s extremely important that workers have a real seat at the table to positively shape the company going forward,” Brent Reel, quality assurance lead at Raven, said in a statement.
Kotaku, and Schreier and all the usual suspects in the "gaming journalism" space jumped the gun on this one.
Furthermore, the NLRB generally frowns upon micro-units forming a union when they do not have unique interests apart from all the other employees.
So ya. To all those sloppy, lazy thinking game journos that totally fucked this story into the ground ...thanks for the laughs
On another humourous note: after all this yapping on twitter and all the grievances of all the alleged war crimes against humanity going on at ATVI and all they could get was a few people in a unit of 34 to sign union cards? So , that's like what? 26 out of 10,000 that signed union cards?
TL;DR: 26 people signed union cards. This is one small step forward to forming a union. There are still 10 hurdles to jump. The CWA is trying to claim they are part of a proper bargaining unit and are begging ATVI to recognize the group as a union. Any one care to to guess the probability that ATVI recognizes these coupla dozen people as a union? I'll give everyone a clue: its a round, even number.
Well, I'm glad this is all humorous to somebody. Had to be at least one. I guess that comes with the territory when you're not affected by anything going on in the least. Don't have to give a shit. All hail Bobby.
People not just bending over and receiving Bobby Kotick’s divine appendage is something to be laughed at, what fools!
Didn’t you hear about Bobby’s latest bit of genius where he ‘apparently’ mismanaged a harassment scandal so badly that the company ended up bought out?
Absolute, genius i tells ya. Did I ever tell you the story of how he built Activision up 30 years ago? Because I will, I absolutely will.
We're at 3.5 years now.. .and no end in sight. i'm not sure if we're waiting for godot or if this is a real life Franz Kafka novel.
On January 22 2022 09:53 NewSunshine wrote: Well, I'm glad this is all humorous to somebody. Had to be at least one. I guess that comes with the territory when you're not affected by anything going on in the least. Don't have to give a shit. All hail Bobby.
The addle reporting is hilarious. As i've said, and as many blizz employees have already done... the best move for the aggrieved employees is to find other work. The DFEH is too busy squabbling with the EEOC to continue investigating whatever is going on.
On January 22 2022 09:53 NewSunshine wrote: Well, I'm glad this is all humorous to somebody. Had to be at least one. I guess that comes with the territory when you're not affected by anything going on in the least. Don't have to give a shit. All hail Bobby.
The addle reporting is hilarious. As i've said, and as many blizz employees have already done... the best move for the aggrieved employees is to find other work. The DFEH is too busy squabbling with the EEOC to continue investigating whatever is going on.
In this thread, you've managed to find plenty of energy for admonishing the Activision and Blizzard employees who are being abused, for arguing that the government can't possibly solve human rights problems such as in cases of sexual harassment and assault, for taking victory laps any time you see a headline that serves Activision Blizzard, for explaining to us why Bobby Kotick is a genius who inhabits a higher realm of existence, and more than anything, explaining to everyone why you're the smartest and most correct person in the room. You know what I've never seen? You admit or even acknowledge the possibility that Activision and Blizzard leadership have ever done anything wrong, at any point. Every single time you've been pressed on it, you veer off and blame the people who didn't leave their abusers before they got abused. You blame the victims.
What do you actually think of the leadership of Activision Blizzard? What they've done? Do you think they did anything wrong?
In this thread I learned that everyone can just leave their job without having to worry about their finances during unemployment, retraining, having to relocate, travel distance, social connections, and a bunch of other things. There are literally no considerations other than being unemployed and having to find a new job, yes indeed. Totally
On January 22 2022 13:22 Magic Powers wrote: In this thread I learned that everyone can just leave their job without having to worry about their finances during unemployment, retraining, having to relocate, travel distance, social connections, and a bunch of other things. There are literally no considerations other than being unemployed and having to find a new job, yes indeed. Totally
The software dev industry is not the federal government. It is not a job for life. In the software development industry ... moving from job to job is the norm. No one with whom I graduated is still at the job they obtained at graduation. Not one person. Most people leave to a better job every two years.
Also, this happens at the University of Waterloo every four months... for 5 years. If a university student can pull it off... I moved 10 times in 4.666 years and had 3 different full time jobs.... so did all my class mates.
This job hopping has been going on in the software dev industry since the 1970s. That is, back in the days of RPG3 and 6502 assembly language. Back then ... the employees who did this were called Yuppies.
So this is nothing new.... it is the norm for decades. Even if you have a great job and are in a great situation... if you have a chance to make more cash and learn some new skills on some emerging tech you go for it. If your job is garbage it makes the decision all that much easier.
I see you don't live in NA though so you might not be accustomed to the software dev work culture of NA.
How is moving jobs because you want more cash, or a new technical challenge remotely comparable to having to move jobs because of harassment in your current gig?
You’re conflating moving around to progress your career if you want with being forced to because your employer can’t control their work environment
Not everyone wants to saunter around from pillar to post like Moses in the desert for decades, many may not have particularly high ambitions.
I’m not even sure such things are remotely the norm any days given how much the sector has expanded and how much gigs are regular jobs for folks with a sufficient degree or diligence rather than the preserve of rare wizards who could name their price.
Ultimately you’ll lose people who have unfulfilled ambitions, or want money you’re not willing to pay. It happens
Losing decent employees because of harassment you’re just pissing training and that institutional knowledge away with no upside at all
Oh please, don't you know there's a very easy solution to everything and problems aren't actually real? You just need to get up and leave, it's the solution to every pro-- I mean there are no real problems, because there's always an easy solution. I don't understand people who don't always have an easy solution ready. Why are they like that?
On January 22 2022 14:49 Magic Powers wrote: Oh please, don't you know there's a very easy solution to everything and problems aren't actually real? You just need to get up and leave, it's the solution to every pro-- I mean there are no real problems, because there's always an easy solution. I don't understand people who don't always have an easy solution ready. Why are they like that?
If there's one thing I know about people it's that absolutely no one lives paycheck-to-paycheck, especially in America. Anyone can, at any time, quit their job on the spot to avoid a toxic work environment filled with harassment and spend the next couple months looking for a new job. Anyone can also uproot themselves at a moment's notice and move somewhere else without issue because money is no longer a problem and everyone has it so easy now! I can't believe anyone would ever think that a person getting harassed isn't doing it to themselves, I mean c'mon, just move to where the good jobs and healthy work environments are because you can always afford to do so at the drop of a hat and also those jobs are limitless! There's no such thing as a finite number of open positions. Every business that's great to their employees has an unlimited numbers of openings! So you'll have to excuse me if I don't feel for the "victims" who were "harassed" and "driven to suicide". They did it to themselves!
On January 22 2022 13:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote: The software dev industry is not the federal government. It is not a job for life. In the software development industry ... moving from job to job is the norm. No one with whom I graduated is still at the job they obtained at graduation. Not one person. Most people leave to a better job every two years.
Also, this happens at the University of Waterloo every four months... for 5 years. If a university student can pull it off... I moved 10 times in 4.666 years and had 3 different full time jobs.... so did all my class mates.
This job hopping has been going on in the software dev industry since the 1970s. That is, back in the days of RPG3 and 6502 assembly language. Back then ... the employees who did this were called Yuppies.
So this is nothing new.... it is the norm for decades. Even if you have a great job and are in a great situation... if you have a chance to make more cash and learn some new skills on some emerging tech you go for it. If your job is garbage it makes the decision all that much easier.
I see you don't live in NA though so you might not be accustomed to the software dev work culture of NA.
Isn't there this saying: times change? Maybe people are fed up with the culture you're describing and have dealt with all your life. Maybe this culture is fine for you, but isn't fine for the new generation of programmers. I think it's kind of sad that you can't see through the hardships people endure and just shrug your shoulders and go "just move on".
Here in the Benelux area (more a Dutch story, but has blown over to Belgium), there's this thing going on where women have spoken up because they were being harassed during a tv show (The Voice Holland), and the CEO of the endevour said: "why don't they just speak up, I didn't know about any of this? Or something likethat. Needless to say, he got a lot of flak for that, because it's so insenstivie to the situation at hand. But I don't think he'd understand why. I feel like you're kind of in the same boat, but with you it's that you've dealt with all the stuff and maybe had a thicker skin or whatever and now feel like everyone of those people is a special snowflake for complaining about their working conditions.
But here's the thing, you're a senior software developer with some clout. You have the experience and the leverage some of those people don't. You're a freelancer (iirc) and they are not. Freelancing <> working for big corpo is totally different. Not everyone has the leverage to tell their employers to fuck off. Not everyone wants/can uproot to move to a better place with better working conditions. Not everyone wants to. And that's perfectly fine. There's no one way to be a software developer.
I've never seen a pro worker exploitation stance by someone but I guess you can't force people to care about the suffering of others if they would rather get paid more.
We're at 3.5 years now.. .and no end in sight. i'm not sure if we're waiting for godot or if this is a real life Franz Kafka novel.
On January 22 2022 09:53 NewSunshine wrote: Well, I'm glad this is all humorous to somebody. Had to be at least one. I guess that comes with the territory when you're not affected by anything going on in the least. Don't have to give a shit. All hail Bobby.
The addle reporting is hilarious. As i've said, and as many blizz employees have already done... the best move for the aggrieved employees is to find other work. The DFEH is too busy squabbling with the EEOC to continue investigating whatever is going on.
What do you actually think of the leadership of Activision Blizzard? What they've done? Do you think they did anything wrong?
We're at 3.5 years now.. .and no end in sight. i'm not sure if we're waiting for godot or if this is a real life Franz Kafka novel.
On January 22 2022 09:53 NewSunshine wrote: Well, I'm glad this is all humorous to somebody. Had to be at least one. I guess that comes with the territory when you're not affected by anything going on in the least. Don't have to give a shit. All hail Bobby.
The addle reporting is hilarious. As i've said, and as many blizz employees have already done... the best move for the aggrieved employees is to find other work. The DFEH is too busy squabbling with the EEOC to continue investigating whatever is going on.
What do you actually think of the leadership of Activision Blizzard? What they've done? Do you think they did anything wrong?
I guess I got my answer.
It's quite telling that he chose to ignore your post and go for one that was easier to respond to instead
Microsoft's nearly $70 billion deal to buy Activision Blizzard could make it a leader in gaming. But it also risks creating a new headache for the tech giant in a key part of its operations: corporate culture.
For months, Activision Blizzard (ATVI) has been under pressure to overhaul its workplace culture. A July lawsuit from a California government agency alleged the gaming behemoth had enabled a "frat boy" culture and claimed leadership and human resources personnel had turned a blind eye to complaints raised by female employees. At the time, the company criticized the lawsuit as "distorted."
Now, in addition to acquiring the company behind such popular video games as Call of Duty and World of Warcraft, Microsoft (MSFT) could also inherit numerous workplace issues. Activision Blizzard employees have staged walkouts over what they see as its inadequate response to overhaul a toxic workplace and called for the resignation of the company's CEO, Bobby Kotick. And they've already pledged to continue advocating for changes under new ownership.
Beyond that, there's a group of employees at an Activision-owned studio pushing to unionize in a rare move for the industry. A union would be a first for the gaming company and for Microsoft's US-based employees. The effort was largely spurred by what the workers claim was a lack of transparency surrounding recent layoffs in their division. Some labor experts have also suggested the blockbuster deal could have a spillover effect by alienating some of Microsoft's own employees.
"It says that the profit motive trumps those potential liabilities," Y-Vonne Hutchinson, founder of inclusion consultancy firm ReadySet, told CNN Business. "It says, 'We're willing to bring on this company that has a ton of cultural problems — where there's rape allegations, where there's allegations of deeply entrenched gender discrimination, sexual harassment -— we're willing to bring that into the fold having it be unresolved.'"
Hutchinson, who is the author of the forthcoming book "How to Talk to Your Boss About Race," also called attention to the optics of Kotick potentially receiving a massive payout from the deal. Kotick now stands to make $390 million when the acquisition closes in Microsoft's 2023 fiscal year. (Kotick is reportedly expected to stay in his role until the deal goes through, and then step down.)
"That can be a discouraging message and one that doesn't feel rooted in values of inclusion," Hutchinson added.
Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella said culture is his "number one priority" as he stressed the importance of righting Activision Blizzard's workplace during a conference call last week discussing the acquisition. Microsoft is "supportive" of the work Activision Blizzard is doing, Nadella said, while also noting that once the deal is closed, Microsoft will have "significant work to do in order to continue to build a culture where everyone can do their best work."
"The success of this acquisition will depend on it," added Nadella.
Can Microsoft fix Activision's culture and preserve its own?
Before the deal was announced, Activision Blizzard had already been criticized for what workers and shareholders called an insufficient response to the issues surfaced in recent months.
Dieter Waizenegger, executive director of Strategic Organizing Center Investment Group, an activist shareholder in Activision Blizzard, joined workers in pressuring Kotick to resign along with some long standing board members who are up for renewal. Waizenegger said Kotick's removal is now "less pressing," but ensuring "a truly independent board that can oversee management" is incredibly important. (Activision Blizzard announced in November a "workplace responsibility committee," comprised of two independent directors, to oversee its progress on workplace culture improvements.)
He said the company has thus far seemed "to be very reluctant to even disclose its current efforts." He added: "The longer you let these problems fester, the more difficult it will be for Microsoft to fix them."
In a statement for this article, Activision Blizzard spokesperson Jessica Taylor said the company's "top priority" is "creating a workplace culture where everyone feels supported, safe, and welcome with the goal of becoming an industry leader in workplace excellence."
"Over the last several months, we've announced a number of impactful measures and commitments, but we know our work is far from done," the statement said.
Since the July lawsuit, Activision Blizzard has announced changes such as leadership shakeups, including the departures of its president and its head of human resources, adopted a "zero-tolerance harassment policy," expanded its employee relations and compliance teams, as well as said it will "waive" arbitration requirement for employees who wish to bring sexual harassment or discrimination claims in the future. It has agreed to pay out $18 million to settle a lawsuit with the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission over sexual harassment and discrimination allegations, as well as promised a slew of updates it says are intended to "rebuild" employee trust.
Waizenegger noted that the hope is for Microsoft to "nudge it along" further. At the very least, he said, Microsoft should take some of the same measures it used to review its culture and policies after allegations of inappropriate workplace behavior by founder and former CEO Bill Gates recently surfaced from the 2000s. (CNN has not independently confirmed all of the allegations.)
Earlier this month, Microsoft's board said it had hired an outside law firm to conduct the review in response to an advisory shareholder resolution and that it planned to make the findings public. Activision Blizzard's leadership has said it hired WilmerHale, a corporate defense law firm known for union-busting, to conduct an investigation. Waizenegger said it is insufficient to "get to the root" of its issues.
Microsoft Gaming CEO Phil Spencer acknowledged the challenges when the acquisition was announced, stressing the importance of "treating every person with dignity and respect. ... We're looking forward to extending our culture of proactive inclusion to the great teams across Activision Blizzard."
Exactly how it plans to do so, however, is less clear. Microsoft declined to comment.
Hutchinson noted that Microsoft has to be especially careful in how it treats Activision Blizzard. Hutchinson said Activision Blizzard is likely to become a "marquee division within Microsoft" due to the popularity of its products but the first priority should be solving its cultural issues. Otherwise, she noted, Microsoft runs the risk of "doubling down financially and strategically on a problematic division."
By bringing on Activision, Microsoft could also open the door to harsher scrutiny of its own culture, following the wave of headlines about the Gates' allegations last year, and to renewed antitrust scrutiny after years of largely staying out of the spotlight. Moreover, Microsoft may have to contend with a different level of worker activism than it's accustomed to — and which may only continue to grow in the months ahead.
The group of workers at Activision Blizzard-owned studio Raven who are planning to unionize expressed dismay Tuesday that the gaming company didn't voluntarily recognize their union when given the opportunity. (Activision Blizzard spokesperson Jessica Taylor said in a statement that it "carefully reviewed and considered" the union request but the "the parties could not reach an agreement.") The workers will instead file a petition with the National Labor Relations Board to hold an election.
In one interview after the acquisition was announced, Microsoft's Spencer acknowledged he doesn't "have a lot of personal experience with unions." After a Twitter user pointed out this comment last week, an account representing an Activision worker group responded that it would "love to" acquaint him.
As we've all learned time and time again, culture comes from the top. If your top is rotten, your company turns rotten. Microsoft's top are seemingly pretty reasonable, so it's fair to presume that it should be able to trickle down into Activision and Blizzard as well eventually. It could take a while tho. It takes time to revolve people in and out
A lot of Microsoft employees who went to Blizzard were apparently super shitty, I doubt Microsoft will be all that great. ActiBlizz needs unionization and executive leadership purges.
On January 28 2022 04:16 Zambrah wrote: A lot of Microsoft employees who went to Blizzard were apparently super shitty, I doubt Microsoft will be all that great. ActiBlizz needs unionization and executive leadership purges.
If they left Microsoft and joined a company with a shitty culture, then that kinda proves my point. Shitty attracts shitty
They should absolutely unionize tho. A non-shitty leadership would support that anyways
LOS ANGELES — In the early 1980s, Bobby Kotick, a University of Michigan undergrad who religiously studied the Forbes 400, co-founded a software company. Kotick didn’t know anything about how computers worked. But his roommate, Howard Marks, did. Their idea was to make computers accessible to Luddites using a program they named Jane, which would simplify certain tasks on an Apple II.
Kotick persuaded casino magnate Steve Wynn to invest, and the employees of their company, called Arktronics, included members of the university’s computer science faculty. Kotick and his partners asked their employees to forgo part or all of their pay in return for shares in the company, court records show, with Kotick thanking one hire for “the confidence and dedication you have demonstrated by your deferral of salary for stock, it is appreciated and should prove rewarding.”
But Apple’s next model made Jane obsolete, and the employees claimed their thousands of shares — said to be worth $1 each — were in fact worthless. “We felt that we had been lied to and perhaps cheated,” said former employee John Wiersba.
Five employees sued Arktronics and its principals in 1985, records show. Arktronics and the employees reached a settlement — but then the company claimed the agreement should not be enforced due to a “mistaken assumption” about expected revenue. In 1989, a Michigan judge ordered Arktronics to honor the settlement: $17,000.
But by then, Kotick and his partners had moved to Los Angeles, where he was in the midst of taking over a salvaged gaming company known as Activision.
The dispute would drag on for six more years, with interest accruing. Kotick’s spokesman, Mark Herr, said the judgment was “paid and satisfied,” though he did not specify when. Wiersba said he was never paid, and a second employee said he couldn’t comment because he signed a nondisclosure agreement. Available court records don’t indicate whether the debt was ultimately paid.
“Our intention was not to hurt people. Our intention was to start another company and become successful,” said Kotick’s partner Marks, who added that he didn’t recall specifics of the dispute. “And it turns out it was unfortunate for the original people.”
The early enterprise — with Kotick blazing toward profits while leaving behind a trail of aggrieved employees — was a case study in his approach to business, which would become well known over the decades that followed.
That approach was on full display last month when Microsoft, in an industry-shifting megadeal, agreed to purchase Activision Blizzard for $68.7 billion, with Kotick reportedly expected to leave his role as CEO after the sale closes, probably sometime next year. The purchase price, nearly as much as the $71.3 billion Disney recently paid for 21st Century Fox, showed the remarkable extent of Activision’s overhaul since Kotick revived it from bankruptcy three decades ago. And it demonstrated why Kotick is revered by some as having one of the most prescient minds in business, recognizing and situating himself to capitalize on incoming industry booms in computing, video games and, most recently, esports.
That reputation has helped make Kotick one of America’s highest-paid executives, earning $154 million in 2020. And it won him the loyalty of a corporate board that has stood by him through periods of tumult — including when he fired two of the company’s most prominent developers, and when he pushed the company to pursue a stock deal that a judge ruled meant a disproportionate profit for himself.
The board has continued to voice full confidence in Kotick even as the company faced accusations of being a toxic workplace for many of his 10,000 employees. The state of California has sued the company, and the SEC is investigating, over its handling of sexual harassment allegations. A recent Wall Street Journal investigation alleged that Kotick failed to share sexual assault and other allegations with the board. More than 1,800 employees have signed a petition calling on Kotick to resign.
A corporate spokesperson has said Activision Blizzard “fell short of ensuring that all of our employees’ behavior was consistent with our values,” and that the company is cooperating with the SEC investigation. But the company has broadly disputed the various allegations, including calling the California lawsuit’s claims “distorted, and in many cases false,” and Kotick has not conceded that he did anything wrong.
Court records reviewed by The Washington Post show that Kotick has engaged in years-long battles against enemies big and small, sparring with contractors for his Beverly Hills, Calif., home and an attendant on his private jet, who claimed Kotick fired her after she reported sexual harassment by another employee. He has brawled over sums of money far eclipsed by the cost of his lawyers.
Herr, Kotick’s spokesman, described Kotick as a “reluctant litigant” who rarely files suit himself and whose lawyers defend him “professionally and with determination.” An outside law firm representing Kotick also sent a five-page letter to The Post’s attorneys, calling this article “an attempt to discredit Mr. Kotick’s stellar reputation as a businessman who has built an $80 billion enterprise from bankruptcy.”
Activision Blizzard’s sale has been described as a hastily arranged concession to the damage done to Kotick and the company’s reputation in under a year. But its terms also showcased Kotick’s ability to survive — and to weather, for now, a scandal that might have meant a quick and inglorious exit for other executives of publicly traded corporations.
If he leaves Activision Blizzard as expected next year following the close of the sale, it will be with stock holdings currently worth around $400 million, reinforcing what was long recognized by those who know him: Even when he loses, it’s on his terms.
A new game in town
In 1990, with Arktronics now defunct, Kotick and his partners spent less than $500,000 to acquire a controlling stake in a Bay Area company called Mediagenic.
Previously called Activision, the company had enjoyed huge sales during the first video game boom in the early 1980s, with a catalogue of titles for Atari, Sega and Nintendo that included “Pitfall!” and “Dragster.”
But revenue had plummeted, and Kotick’s predecessors at the company, sensing that video games were a fad, had changed its name and shifted to what they saw as a more lasting product: word processors. The company was beset by debt and litigation.
Kotick revived the Activision name, laid off much of the staff, and moved the company to Santa Monica, partly to better poach talent from the film industry. A full-page ad in the Hollywood Reporter in 1992 featured the Hollywood sign replaced by letters spelling “Activision” and the tag line, “We have big plans for this town.” The ad didn’t mention the term “video games,” instead referring to “interactive media” as “The Next Big Thing.” It called for “writers, screenwriters, special effects people, animators, producers, and illustrators” to call Kotick, listing his direct extension.
At the time, Hollywood dwarfed the gaming industry, which was cordoned behind the pornography section at the annual CES technology show. But with Kotick at the helm, the company produced franchises, including “Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater” and “Call of Duty,” that far out-earned even the most successful films in history.
By 2014, Kotick could out-bully the film industry in its own town. That year, Sony Pictures executive Tom Rothman, who would later become chairman of the company, prepped his colleagues to tread lightly with Kotick in advance of a meeting about adapting some of his games.
Kotick’s plan was to “do it all IN HOUSE to CONTROL everything,” Rothman warned, according to an email leaked in the Sony hack. But they might have a chance, Rothman wrote, if they were able to “COAX him toward us, by letting him retain control.”
The role reversal reflected industry realities that have only become more pronounced, as the gaming industry has recently out-earned the professional sports and film industries combined.
Kotick has personified that shift, carrying himself more like a film boss than a product of gaming’s scruffy programmer roots. His personal art collection has been valued at $100 million, and he’s vice-chair of the Los Angeles County Museum of Art. He has close relationships with business titans like “Uncle Steve,” as he’s called Wynn, and Robert Kraft, owner of the New England Patriots, whose ownership of the Boston Uprising gave instant cachet to the Overwatch League, one of Activision Blizzard’s professional esports circuits.
‘Scorched earth’
Compared with other magnates who have transformed multibillion-dollar industries, Kotick has, until recently, managed to keep a relatively low profile. Those who know him are reluctant to discuss him on the record, giving reasons ranging from confidentiality agreements to fear of a man who has shown a willingness to devote enormous resources to even the most minor feud.
When Kotick grew dissatisfied during a home remodeling in 2001, court records show, he wrote in an email to his general contractor that during their next meeting he’d be joined by the “senior litigation partner” of a major law firm. “I will assure you the financial and reputational consequences of a litigated outcome will be to [the contractor’s] great disadvantage,” Kotick wrote.
When the contractor’s company then sued Kotick for allegedly not paying his bill, his lawyers said in a counterclaim that the company’s “secret practice of hiring undocumented and unknown workers … placed the Koticks and their children at risk,” including causing an explosion in his house and the venting of “lethal carbon monoxide.” They tried to depose the contractor’s famous clients, including Jim Carrey, Jennifer Lopez and Quentin Tarantino, in what they said was an effort to reveal other allegations of poor workmanship. The contractor’s lawyer said Kotick was trying to hurt the company’s reputation.
A judge ruled against the celebrity depositions. Kotick’s spokesman said last month that he terminated the contractor because of “overbilling, safety and quality of work,” but settled to “avoid protracted litigation.”
In 2010, when the rock group No Doubt sued Activision over the use of their likeness in the game “Band Hero,” Kotick appeared to take it personally that one of the band’s lawyers, who had previously represented Kotick, was now opposing him. In an email filed in court, Kotick chastised the lawyer for not having “given me the courtesy of a phone call” about what he called the “frivolous lawsuit,” writing: “Do you understand that this will prevent you from ever doing any business with Activision, Universal Music or ANY Vivendi company anywhere in the world?” Kotick’s spokesman said he couldn’t comment on the No Doubt case because of the terms of a settlement.
During a second protracted spat with a contractor who had worked on his Beverly Hills home, court records show, Kotick sued his HVAC contractor over an $18,000 dispute for what he said were faulty thermostats. Though Kotick ultimately voluntarily dismissed the lawsuit, he apparently still couldn’t get the temperature right in his house, designed by famed architect John Lautner. He filed suit against an electronics company whose malfunctioning control system, Kotick claimed, was randomly filling his bathtub and turning on the heat, which his lawyers claimed would “likely damage the Koticks’ irreplaceable art collection,” including pieces by Mark Rothko and Robert Rauschenberg.
Marks, his former business partner and an Activision executive until the late 1990s, said he counted Kotick among his best friends until they had a falling out over money. Marks described Kotick, whose net worth has been estimated to be near a billion dollars, as always ready to scrap for virtually meaningless amounts of money. “He always liked the saying, ‘The one who has the most things when they die, wins,' ” Marks said. “Well, he might win, but I never wanted to be in the race in the first place.”
Herr, the spokesman, said that the saying was from a sweatshirt worn by a mutual friend to Kotick and Marks, and that they would both make reference to it. “Bobby denies he believed it then or now,” Herr said.
Kotick’s stamina for legal combat was on display again during a dispute that could be seen as a precursor to the sort of allegations he’s recently faced atop Activision Blizzard.
In 2007, a flight attendant for Kotick’s private jet sued, accusing him of firing her after she reported being harassed by a pilot. Kotick undertook what an arbitrator later described as a “scorched earth defense.”
After the flight attendant mentioned during a deposition that she had an abortion, Kotick’s attorneys argued in court filings that her ex-boyfriend should have to answer questions about it during a deposition, and also that they should be able to introduce evidence of the abortion at trial. The procedure may have “distracted [her] from properly performing her job duties” or caused the “emotional distress” she was now blaming on her firing, Kotick’s lawyer argued in a legal filing.
The flight attendant’s lawyer described the line of inquiry as “pure harassment.” Kotick’s spokesman defended their legal argument, noting that she brought up the abortion herself, “unprompted.”
Kotick and the flight attendant ultimately settled, with Kotick agreeing to pay her $200,000 plus $475,000 in legal fees. After Kotick then refused to pay his own lawyers all of what they said he owed, claiming they overbilled him, they took him to court, too. The arbitrator described Kotick’s strategy as being more concerned with vengeance than business sense, citing statements Kotick allegedly made during meetings with lawyers that he would “ruin” the flight attendant to ensure she would “never work again.” At the time, Kotick’s lawyer disputed the arbitrator’s account of those statements as “inaccurate” and “taken out of context.”
Kotick’s spokesman said Kotick only defended himself against the attendant’s lawsuit, which “the facts clearly showed was without merit.” The arbitrator awarded his former lawyers nearly $1.5 million in fees and costs. All told, Kotick spent more than $2 million on a legal saga his attorneys allegedly advised could have been settled early on for a tenth of that.
According to the arbitrator, however, Kotick said during the proceedings that he was unconcerned with the cost. “He was worth one-half billion dollars,” the arbitrator wrote, paraphrasing what he said was Kotick’s position, “and he didn’t mind spending some of it on attorneys’ fees.”
Reached by The Post, the flight attendant declined to comment, writing, “I have [a] gag order with him.”
A disputed stock deal
Each time that Kotick, as Activision Blizzard chief, has weathered major storms of his own making, he has emerged richer.
When Kotick fired Jason West and Vincent Zampella, the two developers behind the massively lucrative “Call of Duty,” in 2010, the move stunned the industry. The developers sued, claiming their firings were an attempt to avoid paying them $36 million they were owed in royalties and bonuses.
The resulting litigation included claims of a secret campaign to spy on the developers to find a reason to fire them, with a former IT director for the company testifying in a deposition that he was told his assignment for subterfuge “comes from Bobby directly.” Activision Blizzard’s version was that the developers were investigated and terminated for insubordination, after the company discovered they were allegedly planning to leave for rival Electronic Arts.
Activision Blizzard responded by suing EA, but after more than two years of escalating court claims, it settled with both the developers and the rival company. Kotick’s spokesman declined to comment on the litigation, saying that the settlement had rendered it “strictly confidential.”
The episode cost Activision Blizzard tens of millions of dollars, but the company and Kotick’s bottom line proved unaffected. The company’s stock price has increased roughly ninefold since the scandal, and it maintains full control of the multibillion-dollar Call of Duty franchise.
Within a year of that settlement, the company’s board faced a direct test of its loyalty to Kotick, over a deal that appeared to particularly benefit him.
As described in a later court opinion by a Delaware judge, Kotick and Brian Kelly, the Activision Blizzard board chairman, proposed a massive buyback of the ailing French corporation Vivendi’s stake in the company. Kotick and Kelly’s plan included forming a private entity in the Cayman Islands, separate from Activision Blizzard, that they would use to purchase billions of dollars’ worth of shares for themselves and outside investors.
An adviser hired by the board warned that Kotick and Kelly would wind up with a “disproportionate influence” on the company. But when a board committee proposed alternate plans, according to the Delaware judge’s opinion, Kotick repeatedly shot them down. The committee, “concerned that Kotick might resign if they did not support a deal on his terms,” disbanded. A version of the deal went through in 2013, and Kotick and Kelly’s group immediately profited by $712.8 million — a quarter of which was shared by the two men — according to the court opinion.
Shareholders sued, claiming the deal favored the executives. The lawsuit was settled in 2015, for $275 million, just over half of which came from Kotick’s group. Kotick’s spokesman told The Post that the deal “created tens of billions of dollars of long-term value for shareholders.”
In approving the settlement, the judge didn’t disagree, writing that the transaction’s problem “was not the lack of benefit to Activision,” which also profited, “but rather the extraordinary benefits that Kotick and Kelly extracted for themselves.”
Marks, Kotick’s old partner, described such maneuvers as Kotick’s real specialty, and said his “golden parachute” from the trouble at Activision Blizzard was his finest work. “That’s like a chess move,” Marks said. “No one saw that coming.”
For fun and money
Kotick’s caustic and unilateral style has long been accepted as part of the package, according to Trip Hawkins, the EA founder who has known Kotick for more than three decades, dating back to when he said the young businessman’s nickname was the “Enfant Terrible.”
But Hawkins suggested that style was bound to clash with new expectations for executives. “Bobby is a brilliant businessman,” Hawkins said, “but he’s the opposite of ‘woke.' ”
Unlike the business landscape, Kotick appears to have changed little since his Arktronics days. In 1984, he told an interviewer for PBS about an aborted attempt by another computer company to buy the Michigan start-up.
“And they said, ‘This is going to be great fun,’ ” Kotick, 21 at the time, said of that meeting, accentuating the word. “ ’We’ve been in business for two years, we have a lot of fun doing it, and we’re in it for the fun.' ”
“We’re in it for the fun, too,” Kotick said. “But we’re in it, really, for the money.”
How is that union going? They want to try to unionize what? 36 out of 9,900? what a laugh. They haven't even gotten it to a vote. The misreporting on this is absurd. I guess the leader of the union push saw it did not work and abandoned the sinking ship.
The California state DFEH has now declared all out war on the federal EEOC. No one is covering it. I guess we are all supposed to just "trust the government". These dual "investigations" are more than 3.5 years on with no end in sight. The DFEH wants to hold the proceedings until a 9th circuit court can hear their appeal. That is a minimum one year wait. What a bunch of fucks. If the DFEH has its way it'll be 5+ years before we get a resolution.
With these developments it is more and more clear that my approach of finding a better job is better than waiting for these moronic government agencies to rescue you from your plight. Also, waiting for a union is also a waste of time. On top of that hoping for a union is a non starter. No one in ATVI wants a union except a tiny faction within a very small subsidiary... 36 out of 9,900. How many of M$'s 181,000 employees are unionized? I think its 0.
As far as waiting on government agencies to make your life right... i think UFC middleweight champion Israel Adesanya nailed it in a press conference last night.
"Fuck the government"
On February 12 2022 03:12 WombaT wrote: He really does sound a delightful fellow
he created a lot of jobs for decades.
The "money men" behind the software projects I work on maintain a "total-prick, heartless hatchet man" image. It is common tactic for the money guy to play the "bad cop" while the head creative guy to play the "good cop". I've been playing the "good cop" for five years being friends with my developers.
As the money guy Kotick is wise to maintain the "bad cop" image.
The resulting litigation included claims of a secret campaign to spy on the developers to find a reason to fire them, with a former IT director for the company testifying in a deposition that he was told his assignment for subterfuge “comes from Bobby directly.” Activision Blizzard’s version was that the developers were investigated and terminated for insubordination, after the company discovered they were allegedly planning to leave for rival Electronic Arts.
Rob Pardo and Jeff Kaplan engaged in a campaign of lies in order to kick Designer Dave out of Blizzard. This is standard internal politics. I got a million stories like these.
Hell, Activision was BORN in litigation. Activision wanted to pay Atari $0 in royalties. It ended up being a massive court battle that went on for years.
I have to question the life and work experience of people who claimed to be "shocked and mortified" by these stories. This is standard stuff.
Again, you don't like it. leave. Waiting for the government to step in and make your life right is a waste of time. At this point, a judge is going to have decide whether or not to wait for a 9th circuit court to hear the DFEH's 2nd appeal. LOL. The DFEH has already been told to fuck off once. If Franz Kafka wrote this debacle into a novel I'd reject it as too unrealistic.
California's motion to stay proceedings occurs February 28th. I think that motion is being heard by the same judge , Dale Fischer , who told them to fuck off and leave the EEOC alone 4 months ago. LOL.
Makes me wonder if MS will signal to Biden they will allow Unions to form otherwise the Biden admin can prevent the merger.
The ongoing unionization push by a number of Activision Blizzard employees reached its next step Wednesday as workers and management for Activision-owned Raven Software argued in a National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) hearing over their clashing definitions of who should get to vote on the formation of a union.
The latest battle is being held on Zoom over the next few days as the NLRB hears from both sides about what should be the relevant group of workers voting to unionize. Previously, workers in Raven’s quality assurance department announced their intention to unionize their own department, calling it the Game Workers Alliance. Raven’s management has said that all employees at the company should get a vote on the formation of a union. A majority of votes (50 percent plus one) is needed to form a union.
Activision wants the eligible voting group for a union election to be as large as possible, which labor lawyers say could dilute the number of union supporters. In January, 34 quality assurance workers at Madison, Wis.-based Raven Software requested recognition of a union but management did not voluntarily recognize the union by a late January deadline. A ruling on the hearing by the NLRB could take months, according to labor law experts.
Most of the testers work on the popular game “Call of Duty: Warzone” and had been working toward unionization for months. They said they were motivated by recent layoffs, excessive overtime and low pay.
“The lack of transparency from management during this process, coupled with their refusal to come to the table with Raven QA workers, has been demoralizing,” the Game Workers Alliance said in a statement shared with The Washington Post Wednesday. “It’s past time for Activision Blizzard to recognize that we — the workers — have organized our union and we’re not backing down.”
Activision Blizzard said in a statement to The Post: “This is an important decision that will affect everyone at Raven, and we believe that every eligible employee deserves to have their vote counted. We look forward to the NLRB’s decision.”
The rules governing the union recognition process can change depending on which political party controls the White House. The Trump administration made it more difficult for employees to form so-called micro unions, arguing that workers could simply cherry-pick a group that was more likely to vote for a union. Trump’s NLRB overturned an Obama-era precedent where the burden of proof had been on employers to show that workers excluded from a union vote shared enough in common to become included — a hard task when job positions often differ in hours, wages and duties.
Now under Biden, the NLRB is considering reviving the Obama precedent.
“This is an interesting moment for that decision because the current NLRB is majority Democratic appointments now,” said Cornell professor of labor and employment law Risa Lieberwitz. “They’re reconsidering a change in precedent from the NLRB that took place under the Trump administration.”
Michele Gehrke, a partner at Reed Smith, representing Activision Blizzard in the hearing, called Raven workers’ petition to unionize just the quality assurance department “inappropriate.”
“The excluded employees share an overwhelming community of interest,” Gehrke said in opening remarks.
Activision presented its argument first, displaying an illustration that showed Raven’s organizational chart from when quality assurance testers were a separate department, alongside one where the testers were included as part of every department. The company reorganized its quality assurance department Jan. 24 during an internal meeting, shortly after its workers announced their intentions to unionize.
The illustration was a source of laughter among employees who attended the hearing, as they created and shared memes over what management said. They pointed out that in the company’s illustration, quality assurance testers were now divided up and there was a tester working inside the marketing department and inside the information technology team, which wasn’t realistic. In the first graphic, testers sat siloed from the rest of the teams.
Brian Raffel, head of Raven, was the first witness called by the company, followed by Activision’s human resources business partner John Obligato. Activision counsel and leadership argued that quality assurance testers are no longer their own separate department, as they have been spread across multiple departments at Raven, getting integrated with different teams and becoming “embedded testers.” Raven employees believe the move was done to undermine the unionization effort.
“The first few days we were supposed to start the embedded testing model no one, not even management, knew who we would be directly reporting to,” said a Raven employee, who requested anonymity for fear of retaliation. “Several weeks into being an embedded tester, it is still not clear to me exactly what I’m supposed to be doing.”
In the days leading up to the hearing, workers have accused management of sending anti-union messages and videos in internal discussion boards and meetings.
Last Friday, Raven management held a meeting with employees to discuss how the union could affect work conditions, Raven workers told The Post. Senior director David Pellas said in the meeting that unions could limit the amount of overtime worked, which might affect the quality of a game upon launch. Pellas added he believed that unionization could lead to challenges, but said he wasn’t sure what those were.
Raven union organizers responded to the meeting in a Feb. 11 public Twitter thread, saying, “Leadership asked questions about all the bad things a union could do. But they failed to ask what good things a union could do.”
Asked about anti-union rhetoric, an Activision Blizzard spokesman said in a statement to The Post: “All sides — union, company, and employees — have the right to express their positions regarding the election. Our stance is that employees should get all the facts. We believe in, and have clearly emphasized many times, that we support the right of employees to decide whether or not to support or vote for a union, without coercion from anyone.”
Communications Workers of America national organizing director Tom Smith disputed that characterization in a statement to The Post.
“Despite repeated public promises from top executives that Activision Blizzard is cleaning up its act and addressing its horrific culture of workplace abuses, the company’s actions in response to Raven QA workers’ decision to form a union demonstrate clearly that nothing has changed,” Smith said.
The Game Workers Alliance cited allegations of toxic corporate culture at their parent company among the reasons that motivated them to organize. Last July, California’s Department of Fair Employment and Housing (DFEH) filed a gender-based discrimination, inequality and harassment lawsuit against Activision Blizzard, alleging the company had a “frat boy culture” that included excessive drinking and sexual harassment.
According to a 2021 Gallup poll, unions are more popular than they’ve been in over 50 years, with 68 percent of Americans in favor of collective power, including 77 percent of people ages 18 to 34. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported Jan. 20 that the number of workers belonging to unions declined by 241,000 last year to 14 million in the country, with a union membership rate of just over 10 percent.
Raven is among the Activision Blizzard-owned studios set to be acquired by Microsoft. The maker of Windows and Xbox made waves across the tech and gaming industries on Jan. 18 when it announced it would buy Activision Blizzard for nearly $69 billion in an all-cash deal expected to close by June 2023, pending regulatory approval.
Founded in 1990 by Brian Raffel and his brother, Raven Software is a studio of over 300 employees and was acquired by Activision in 1997 for $12 million. It’s mainly known for working on the Call of Duty franchise, including games like “Warzone,” “Black Ops: Cold War” and “Modern Warfare.” Activision Blizzard itself has over 9,500 employees and multiple studios, including those that make games like “World of Warcraft” and “Candy Crush Saga.”
The workers chose the name “Game Workers Alliance,” rather than a more specific name referring to their studio or department so that other parts of the company and other games workers across the country could join over time. To do so, those parts of Raven or other divisions at Activision Blizzard would need to collect a majority of union authorization signatures and then vote in favor of joining the GWA.
As the union election process continues, workers at Activision Blizzard are still encouraging each other to sign their names to union authorization cards, which could eventually lead to a companywide vote on forming a union.
Intrigued to see how this all plays out. Slowly at present it seems, although there’s some will there, Acti-Blizz don’t seem to want to make it easy, much as they’ll claim they’re neutral on the issue of unions forming their actions make that out to be total bullshit.
@Jimmy is it an image with Kotick though?
There’s occasionally cracking skulls to get things done, in all sorts of fields. I think you’re ascribing a naivety to thread denizens that doesn’t apply, I’m certainly under no illusions that people have to play the bad cop.
He just sounds like a grade A prick, all the time. Even when he fails, he fails upwards as well. As an end user there’s not even the trade off of ‘ok this guy is ruthless but man he just had a vision and we have cool stuff now’. A Steve Jobs was frequently also a tyrant, or any number of other folks but in mitigation at least they were demonically driven in delivering their vision.
Ideally we just don’t have people behaving like tyrants but hey, it’s a cruel world
On February 18 2022 02:01 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Makes me wonder if MS will signal to Biden they will allow Unions to form otherwise the Biden admin can prevent the merger.
is this a troll comment?
So, MS, a company of 190,000 employees with 0 in a union are going to acquire a company of less than 10,000. In this company of less than 10,000 exactly 34 have a majority that want to unionize. So , in negotiating to make the ATVI deal happen MS will tell the NLRB/Biden/Feds that MS will voluntarily recognize any of the other 200,000 employees to unionize if they so choose?
huh?
On February 18 2022 20:54 WombaT wrote: Intrigued to see how this all plays out. Slowly at present it seems, although there’s some will there, Acti-Blizz don’t seem to want to make it easy, much as they’ll claim they’re neutral on the issue of unions forming their actions make that out to be total bullshit.
the DFEH and EEOC are in an all out war right now. ATVI is not involved. The DFEH wants proceedings stopped until a 9th circuit court can hear their improper appeal of a previous decision about interfering in the EEOC case. The 9th circuit court takes 12 to 20 months on anything that is not before a criminal court. They are not in criminal court.
Anyone unhappy with their job at ATVI .. i suggest they find another job. Its been 3.5 years so far.... and this is going to take a minimum of two years more.
I’m unsure why ActiBlizz seems to be pulling out classics from the Union suppression playbook if it really is only 34 people who are wanting to unionise across the whole company .
On February 19 2022 03:56 WombaT wrote: I’m unsure why ActiBlizz seems to be pulling out classics from the Union suppression playbook if it really is only 34 people who are wanting to unionise across the whole company .
Because they're deathly afraid that anyone will see what happens when employees join a union, and it isn't the horror story that union busters always try to ship out. They can't let the box open, because then they can't close it.
they could expand the union to take on all QA testing for the company. It wouldn't be that crazy to want a stable base for that throughout all their studios with how intense it can be during parts of development and not needed for others.
Corpos would ignore the benefits and keep being unionphobics but allowing one company to have one part of their division unionize would go a long way to making the argument that they aren't a monopoly using its heft against others but a more decentralized conglomerate that's there to lower costs and gives the gaming companies some degree of independence.
On February 19 2022 03:56 WombaT wrote: I’m unsure why ActiBlizz seems to be pulling out classics from the Union suppression playbook if it really is only 34 people who are wanting to unionise across the whole company .
have you bothered to read the back and forth?
34 want to unionize. ATVI is challenging that request by saying ... let's have all 350 employees at Ravensoft vote on unionization not just this small group of 34.
Why haven't they risen to ATVI's challenge? Because the studio does not want to unionize.
There is an Acquisition on the table right now. Right after an acquisition finishes layoffs occur removing all redundant employees.
I worked for Kinkos when Fedex took over. Bit by bit Kinkos was dismantled all while Fedex kept saying "we're preserving Kinkos unique work culture". As I got older I learned that this is what happens in all acquisitions. The company being acquired gets eaten alive.
Every ATVI employee is on the chopping block. The smart employees are auditioning for their new jobs at MS right now.
Well yeah, it’s a typical Union stalling move. The QA folks making the initial push have specific issues pertaining to their specific job and conditions.
Activision is challenging this by expanding the scope to many other roles, some of whom may not have those particular issues and saying to get a majority from that wider group. Which is almost invariably more difficult to get buy in for the reason I just mentioned. Plus it is adding additional organisational demands on the initial organisers to expand the scope.
My particular union does encompass a quite large mix of job roles, it’s absolutely possible to do. But takes time and a considerable amount of organisation.
On February 19 2022 04:02 Sermokala wrote: they could expand the union to take on all QA testing for the company. It wouldn't be that crazy to want a stable base for that throughout all their studios with how intense it can be during parts of development and not needed for others.
Instead they made an org chart where the people who want to unionize are split between departments like having a QA under marketing. It's a complete joke that such arguments are even allowed and have to be ruled on in a court of law.
On February 19 2022 07:34 WombaT wrote: Which is almost invariably more difficult to get buy in for the reason I just mentioned.
The #1 union stalling move is that Ravensoft does not want to unionize.
I don't think you can look at a company not moving to unionize and declare that they must not want to. That's galactically reductive reasoning, at best.
On February 19 2022 07:34 WombaT wrote: Well yeah, it’s a typical Union stalling move.
On February 19 2022 07:34 WombaT wrote: Which is almost invariably more difficult to get buy in for the reason I just mentioned.
The #1 union stalling move is that Ravensoft does not want to unionize.
I don't think you can look at a company not moving to unionize and declare that they must not want to. That's galactically reductive reasoning, at best.
Thanks for the laughs man, the CWA and ABK did lots of big talking and all they could come up with was a single group of 34 people after claims of horrific conditions for decades.
If threatening to unionize helps them get better working conditions and a better deal with management they should keep doing it. It doesn't mean I have to take it seriously though. The legislation the NLRB works with is outdated. It does not apply to industries born after 1980. Thus, for software builders ... union membership is a waste of time in the USA.
Now, if Activision has front line customer service reps who sell product and/or work retail and do not get involved in building software then that group unionizing might make some sense. However, that group is not amongst the 34. So its just LOL.
It’s early doors with a lot of moving parts. The media seem to be over blowing the possibility of unionisation, you seem to be lowballing potential interest in it.
I am in a long-standing Union. Some rep popped in one day, went around people who hadn’t been asked of their interest, I like the idea of unions and I signed up and pay my dues and that was that.
If instead it was a case of me being involved in forming a union amidst a takeover, with my company trotting out ‘oh anyone is free to do this, we totally won’t hold it against them, promise’ statements with regularity, well that’s another kettle of fish.
I don’t see how software development and unions are innately incompatible. You just adapt what areas you have union made lines in the sand and solidarity for the particular job.
On February 19 2022 07:34 WombaT wrote: Well yeah, it’s a typical Union stalling move.
On February 19 2022 07:34 WombaT wrote: Which is almost invariably more difficult to get buy in for the reason I just mentioned.
The #1 union stalling move is that Ravensoft does not want to unionize.
I don't think you can look at a company not moving to unionize and declare that they must not want to. That's galactically reductive reasoning, at best.
Thanks for the laughs man, the CWA and ABK did lots of big talking and all they could come up with was a single group of 34 people after claims of horrific conditions for decades.
If threatening to unionize helps them get better working conditions and a better deal with management they should keep doing it. It doesn't mean I have to take it seriously though. The legislation the NLRB works with is outdated. It does not apply to industries born after 1980. Thus, for software builders ... union membership is a waste of time in the USA.
Now, if Activision has front line customer service reps who sell product and/or work retail and do not get involved in building software then that group unionizing might make some sense. However, that group is not amongst the 34. So its just LOL.
Yes, because those 34 employees were scattered across the company for no reason, that had nothing to do with stopping their move to start a union. You talk of the real world a lot, but you don't seem to understand some pretty basic things about it. Power structures? Risk vs. reward? Cause and effect? They scattered those 34 employees to the wind so they wouldn't be united anymore. That's the most basic reason why. Then anyone among them who still tries to push for the union can be singled out, and ABK, like any other big company afraid of unions, absolutely 100% will retaliate by firing them, demoting them, shitting on their working conditions, whatever. That's the real world these employees live in.
The reason the whole company didn't turn around and unionize is because they haven't been organized, and they know that if only a handful of them go for it, then they'll stick out like a sore thumb when the attempt fails and their life will be hell for it. They'll get harassed, lose their job, and probably not be able to work in the industry again. Not because they didn't want to. Lol. Glad I could entertain you. For further entertainment, I have a YouTube link:
This is my 5000th post? Jesus. I should've been paying attention.
On February 20 2022 01:34 WombaT wrote: I don’t see how software development and unions are innately incompatible. You just adapt what areas you have union made lines in the sand and solidarity for the particular job.
the legislation the NLRB works with is old and outdated. it is possible to have a different and better worker/management relationship than is standard today. However, the legal framework of the 1950's legislation the NLRB works with is not the way to go.
This is precisely why the software makers in NA are not unionized and never have been.
Creating and crafting software is a different activity than assembling a car part or executing a set of standard tasks as a customer service rep at a brick and mortar retail store.
The report writer add-on tool i built 10 years ago puts coders out of work every year. You think a software developers union wants me or my product around ? nah. an expensive coder is no longer needed for sophisticated financial reports. Management and the person in charge of accounting loves it. They have 1 less full time software developer in house.
Heard of Icomoon? That drastically lowers the # of hours required for web developers to make their own icon packs and fonts. You think a union wants that?
If an auto worker could assemble something that cuts in half the # of labour hours of all his co-workers... would that auto worker be welcome in the United Auto Workers union? no, he has instantly become "management" by doing that.
On February 20 2022 02:00 NewSunshine wrote: Yes, because those 34 employees were scattered across the company for no reason, that had nothing to do with stopping their move to start a union. You talk of the real world a lot, but you don't seem to understand some pretty basic things about it. Power structures? Risk vs. reward? Cause and effect?
See my posts, including this one, about the NLRB legislation being outdated.
No Reason to embed testers? ATVI embedded the testers into the dev teams they work with in other subsidiaries. I've worked in places where the testers are embedded. It can work great. It is almost always easier to move up into more interesting work when you're working directly with the coders/designers/craftsmen.
I started as an embedded tester at minimum wage. It was great learning from the big fancy $60/hour software designer guy. I got more and more into coding and tweaking the software as the designer guy helped me along. Months later, the big fancy software consultant guy left for a better job and I took over.
This career path I took has been common for decades. Most testers I know welcome being embedded. Strength in Diversity? amirite? LOL.
On February 20 2022 02:00 NewSunshine wrote: Glad I could entertain you. For further entertainment, I have a YouTube link:
it is more the BS reporting that surrounds this case at which i am laughing. i should probably clarify that better.
I mean, if you're just going to be an antagonistic ass every time I try to respond, then I'm going to stop. I've said my piece, you can read and watch, and until then there's no point for me. Cheers.
For anyone else willing to read what I wrote, I still recommend watching John Oliver's piece on union busting.
Unions want all sorts of things, they will shift tack depending on the particulars of industries they are in.
Outside of harassment specific grievances, the biggest consistent gripe I hear, by far is crunch periods. Actually these are almost the sole grievances.
One could argue that a union blocking these would improve efficiency in the company, which would benefit both individual workers and the company at large.
With mandated crunch periods on the table, and consistently, consistently leant in to, flabby project management is surely one consequence. Why properly plan projects if at any point you can just flip the crunch switch?
It’s one particular area. You’re using examples from other unions while saying those industries are totally different. It’s not. Not every union is the Teamsters or what have you.
On February 20 2022 02:44 WombaT wrote: Outside of harassment specific grievances, the biggest consistent gripe I hear, by far is crunch periods. Actually these are almost the sole grievances.
One could argue that a union blocking these would improve efficiency in the company, which would benefit both individual workers and the company at large.
With mandated crunch periods on the table, and consistently, consistently leant in to, flabby project management is surely one consequence. Why properly plan projects if at any point you can just flip the crunch switch?
It’s one particular area. You’re using examples from other unions while saying those industries are totally different. It’s not. Not every union is the Teamsters or what have you.
Crunch is tough because it is seen as a badge of honour. For example, this year I worked 12 hours on December 31, 12 hours on January 1, and 12 hours on January 2. I'm considered a bad ass for doing that.
Bob Fitch is lauded as a hero of SC1:Brood War because they locked him in a room and he built the game engine after already being in crunch forever. The Halo head guy brags about sleeping under his desk during Halo1 crunch.
After you've been in the industry 5+ years and you've built a reputation you leverage against poor project management. What you do is.. evolve your work around nothing but rescuing projects in peril or projects that have failed multiple times. The pay is outrageously high and the projects are challenging. And , if the project fails, who cares... it failed before any way.
This is how a street smart software developer deals with poor project management.
and hey, who is kidding who... I'm a pretty bad project manager myself.
On February 20 2022 02:27 NewSunshine wrote: I mean, if you're just going to be an antagonistic ass every time I try to respond, then I'm going to stop. I've said my piece, you can read and watch, and until then there's no point for me. Cheers.
sry man.. i edited my post. my apologies. However, my point about embedded testers still stands.
Media outlets reported it as "scattered across the company for no reason". ATVI says they are going with testers embedded into the dev workers that are making the stuff they are testing.
Who knows what the truth is. ATVI could be 100% correct. THe media report could be 100% correct. It is impossible to know in this particular case who is correct or what % each side's narrative is true.
Also, please note, that I 100% endorse threatening to unionize as a way to bargain for better working conditions.
I think being an embedded tester is better than being only around other testers with no informal communication with developers. It is possible that this threat to unionize garnered these employees better working conditions. If so, good for them.
On February 20 2022 03:46 WombaT wrote: It’d be a rather different thing if through various planning failures I was mandated to cram in those hours
That is precisely when one can leverage one's crunch time for the most trust cred and hard cash. My employees and I do it all the time... it is the primary method of growing my biz.
Then we dink around for months answering support questions that are about as tough as this job here.... www.youtube.com
until the next emergency arrives. Then we kick it into gear again. meh.
Warren buffet also bought a lot of stock in the company after the news broke because they both knew that the company had some sort of value but needed a massive turnaround.
I don't know what you do about blizzard at this point though, Activision is the monster the industry created but blizzard is in a terrible shape right now and needs a root and branch reform to it.
On February 23 2022 21:17 WombaT wrote: I like how there’s a category solely for people with no pressing personal circumstances.
‘Well we can’t find anything wrong with their work ethic or morals, but damnit we have no leverage to turn the screws with. We can’t stand for this!’
Im choosing to treat that list like a horoscope, Im not a Virgo, I'm a Whiner-and-Complainer and CoD is in Retrograde, so I should avoid the Footloose-and-Fancy-Free and am drawn to Malingerers
The Wall Street Journal, which first reported on the timing of Berkshire Hathaway’s purchase of the shares, initially asserted they were bought at an average price of roughly $66.53 a share. The outlet later updated its story to note the $77 average price.
Nice to see the WSJ get exposed.
On February 23 2022 22:12 PoulsenB wrote: A corporation, especially ActiBlizz, saying that unions "exploit" workers is the most fucked up hypocritical shit, you couldn't make this up
On February 23 2022 23:10 Artisreal wrote: that is some hot garbage.
The overly militant UAW fucked over auto workers in Michigan. The auto assembly jobs ended up a 5 hour drive down the road in Oshawa, Canada under the far more reasonable CAW. OPSEU has fucked over its members and was a big reason why the Lab Techs in OPSEU wanted out.
There are some good unions out there.. and there are some bad unions out there.
Overly idiotic, stupidly militant unions lead to mainstream american humour like this.... www.youtube.com TL;DR : a unionized engineer refusing to forego his lunch break even with a gun held up to him
Before you knee jerk on Raynor there if you read that link for a second you will find that the guy says that the NFLPA should change from a Union to a trade association. It raises some good points that would probably be relevant to the USWNT as well. And is from a former NFLPA guy who negotiated for CBA's in the past who says that it would benefit the lower paid players to never have to worry about a lockout or a strike.
Which isn't an argument against Unions as a lot of portions of the CBA are there to allow the league to engage in monopolistic actions which would become illegal if they didn't negotiate with a CBA. The circumstances of professional sports are in no way relevant to people in industries that aren't talent related. Peoples careers in real life don't last 3 to 4 years. Its disgusting to see someone think that its humorous to make jokes about labor rights that people had to die for to become normalized.
Anyone who stands with billionaires over their fellow workers in the class war they wage against us should be ignored. I'm proud to have a lunch break I'm legally allowed to take every day. I'm proud to only have to work 40 hours before they have to pay me more to work. These shouldn't be controversial statements.
A new lawsuit against Call of Duty publisher Activision Blizzard by a current employee raises fresh allegations of sexual harassment at the publisher, this time focused on leaders in Blizzard’s IT department. According to the lawsuit, the current employee was repeatedly subjected to unwanted advances, touching, and inappropriate remarks. She says she was retaliated against after reporting it to HR and subsequently passed over for promotions in an attempt to force her out of the company.
Filed in Los Angeles Superior Court on March 23, the new lawsuit represents a current employee (referred to as Ms. Doe) who first came forward with these allegations in a press conference last December. It claims that despite public promises by Activision Blizzard to support victims, it has continued to retaliate against the employee in the months since she came forward.
The lawsuit says she was passed over for a promotion weeks later and given no reason why. It also says that in January, the company lied in an email to other employees, saying she had been fired. “Activision Blizzard’s relentless efforts to push her out continued on February 1, 2022, when it hired two new temporary employees to perform the exact duties Ms. Doe performed,” the lawsuit reads.
The lawsuit also goes into new detail about the apparent sexual misconduct that took place in Blizzard’s IT department, naming among its defendants three former employees: former chief technology officer Ben Kilgore, former chief information officer Derek Ingalls, and former director of IT, Mark Skorupa. The first two were former Microsoft employees prior to Blizzard. Skorupa is currently a Microsoft employee. Microsoft, which is under scrutiny for its own past handling of sexual harassment cases, is currently moving forward with a $68.7 billion deal to buy Activision Blizzard.
Activision Blizzard, Ingalls, and Skorupa did not immediately respond to a request for comment. Kilgore could not immediately be reached. Microsoft declined to comment.
The acquisition deal came about when the embattled publisher’s stock price had been falling after months of previous lawsuits and reports alleging years of widespread sexual harassment and discrimination at the company. Activision Blizzard CEO Bobby Kotick, who is among those accused of failing to address mistreatment, has since apologized to employees, committed to a number of reforms including a new zero tolerance policy for harassment, and entered into a tentative $18 million settlement with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commision.
After the planned acquisition was announced in January, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella praised Kotick’s business acumen and said he was grateful for “his leadership and commitment to real change” in the months since the allegations first became public in July 2021. This latest lawsuit’s new allegation of retaliation, however, raises questions about how sweeping and deep some of the company’s reforms have gone.
In the lawsuit, the employee says the sexual harassment began on her very first day at Blizzard, in 2017, when she was taken out to lunch and repeatedly encouraged to take shots of tequila. At one point Skorupa, her boss, “forced his hand on Ms. Doe’s lap.” Other instances allegedly included unwanted hugs by Skorupa and Kilgore, comments about her breasts, and other inappropriate remarks. The lawsuit accuses Ingalls of coercing her to stay late with other male employees and play a Jackbox party game which often revolved around sexual jokes. It also alleges that an executive administrative assistant once propositioned her for sex, and that a senior IT manager tried to kiss her. Both are still currently employed at Blizzard.
According to the lawsuit, none of the named employees intervened to stop the harassment or report it to HR. Instead, it alleges the employee was retaliated against after she first reported the abuse herself, in August 2018, by losing responsibilities and being subsequently denied promotions or relocations out of the department. It alleges that in one instance HR tried to excuse the offending behavior, and in another said it would address the issues, but apparently never did. She claims it wasn’t until she wrote to then-Blizzard president J. Allen Brack in 2019 about the sexual harassment that she was able to secure a position somewhere else in the company, though for less pay.
According to their LinkedIn profiles, Ingalls left Blizzard in August 2019 for a job at Amazon and Skorupa left in December 2019 to return to Microsoft. Kilgore was reportedly terminated in August 2018, after an investigation into multiple allegations of sexual misconduct. The lawsuit alleges that when this happened, several men in leadership at Blizzard posed for a photo, in which they all gave the middle finger, and Ingalls later emailed it to others. “This photo signaled to Ms. Doe that leadership thought Defendant KILGORE’s departure for sexual misconduct was a joke,” the lawsuit claims.
Prior to being hired at Blizzard, Kilgore was a high-profile VP of Xbox program management at Microsoft, where he helped ship the Xbox One. Ingalls worked with him on the launch as a long-time general manager on Xbox Live operations. Skorupa was a program manager on Xbox. After Kilgore was terminated, Ingalls reportedly “joked” in a meeting about how staff shouldn’t sleep with their assistants.
Blizzard’s Microsoft connections persist to this day. Its current president, Mike Ybarra, was VP of Game Pass before joining the Overwatch maker in 2019. “Dinner with Kilgore and Ingalls tonight, should be fun seeing friends,” he tweeted in October 2019. “Funny how roles/jobs drift folks apart.”
In addition to damages for lost wages, humiliation, mental distress, and other harms, the latest Activision Blizzard lawsuit also seeks court orders to compel Activision to institute a rotating HR department to avoid conflicts of interest and to fire CEO Bobby Kotick. Kotick is expected to step down after the Microsoft deal closes, but not before leaving with an estimated $390 million payout as a result of the acquisition.
The law office representing Kotick did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
And this just dropped. Apparently Governor Newsom is running interference on behalf on Activision.
A top lawyer for the state of California has resigned, accusing the governor’s office of interfering with a discrimination lawsuit against Activision Blizzard Inc.
Melanie Proctor, the assistant chief counsel for California’s Department of Fair Employment and Housing, said in an email to staff Tuesday night that she was resigning to protest the fact that her boss at the agency, Chief Counsel Janette Wipper, had been abruptly fired by the governor. Both lawyers had already stepped down from the Activision lawsuit earlier this month without explanation. A representative for the two attorneys confirmed that Proctor had resigned and Wipper was fired.
The allegation and loss of the top two lawyers on the case raises questions about the fate of the Activision lawsuit, which accuses the Santa Monica, California-based video game publisher of sexual discrimination and misconduct. The case is currently pending in Los Angeles Superior Court. The lawsuit, which detailed Activision’s “frat boy” culture, led to employee walkouts, calls for the chief executive officer to resign, condemnation from its business partners and a stock plunge that culminated in Microsoft Corp.’s agreement earlier this year to purchase the company for $69 billion.
Proctor said in the email to staff that in recent weeks, California Governor Gavin Newsom and his office “began to interfere” with the Activision suit. “The Office of the Governor repeatedly demanded advance notice of litigation strategy and of next steps in the litigation,” Proctor wrote in the email, which was seen by Bloomberg. “As we continued to win in state court, this interference increased, mimicking the interests of Activision’s counsel.”
Proctor wrote that Wipper had “attempted to protect” the agency’s independence and was “abruptly terminated” as a result. “I hereby resign, effective April 13, 2022, in protest of the interference and Janette’s termination,” Proctor wrote.
Wipper is “evaluating all avenues of legal recourse including a claim under the California Whistleblower Protection Act,” said her spokeswoman, Alexis Ronickher.
A spokesperson for the governor’s office referred a Bloomberg request for comment to a spokesperson for the DFEH, who said they would not comment on personnel matters. “DFEH will continue to vigorously enforce California’s civil rights and fair housing laws,” a spokesperson said.
The shakeup comes just two weeks after Activision reached a settlement with the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission for $18 million over a similar lawsuit. In a series of court squabbles, California’s lawyers had attempted to block that settlement but were ultimately rejected by a federal judge.
Critics pointed out that $18 million was low for a company of Activision’s scale, and that Wipper’s department had gotten Riot Games Inc., a far smaller company, to pay $100 million last year to settle its own discrimination lawsuit.
Quality assurance testers for Activision Blizzard Inc. will vote next month on unionizing, a U.S. labor board official ordered Friday.
The group of around 21 workers at the company’s Raven studio in Wisconsin will be mailed ballots on April 29, according to the ruling from the National Labor Relations Board’s Minneapolis regional director Jennifer Hadsall. The decision comes after Activision Blizzard declined to voluntarily recognize Raven Software’s union.
Raven Software is a subsidiary of games-entertainment behemoth Activision Blizzard, which announced in January that it would be acquired by Microsoft Corp. for $68.7 billion. The Raven employees perform quality-assurance testing for video games like Call of Duty to ensure they function smoothly. Workers there moved to unionize after news of job cuts in December 2021, which preceded weeks of strikes. Turmoil also followed an explosive complaint from California’s Department of Fair Employment and Housing accusing Activision Blizzard of fostering a “bro culture” of sexism.
The company had argued that the workers’ election petition should be dismissed because they were a “workforce in flux” undergoing a reorganization and that any election should instead cover hundreds of employees in dozens of job classifications, meaning the union would have needed much more support to prevail. In her ruling, Hadsall rejected the company’s arguments, writing that the quality assurance testers share a “community of interest” and that there was “no evidence that QA testers are being eliminated or that their role would fundamentally change” due to reorganization.
“While we respect the NLRB process, we are disappointed that a decision that could significantly impact the future of our entire studio will be made by fewer than 10% of our employees,” a spokesperson for Activision said in statement. “We are reviewing legal options regarding a potential appeal.”
Workers will vote on joining the Communications Workers of America, the same union organizing at Alphabet Inc. and at an Apple Store in Georgia. The Communications Workers of America didn’t immediately respond to request for comment.
Activision Blizzard spokespeople and executives have stated several times that they respect employees’ right to unionize. However, the company has also faced allegations of union-busting. In January, Activision Blizzard reorganized Raven Software workers, embedding them in specific departments like “audio” and “design” in a move Communications Workers of America director Tom Smith referred to as “a tactic to thwart Raven QA workers who are exercising their right to organize.”
The company said the move had begun late 2021 and was intended to boost efficiency.
Activision Blizzard also converted 1,100 game testers to full-time employees early April and increased their minimum salary. The workers at Raven Software didn’t receive the same pay initiative. The company cited “legal obligations under the National Labor Relations Act.”
The Activision campaign comes amid a surge of organizing in tech, including successful recent union representation votes among Amazon.com Inc. warehouse workers and sub-contracted Alphabet Inc. retail staff.
Unions are rare among games companies in the U.S.. The first, at independent studio Vodeo Games, was announced last December.
Even if Activision Blizzard Inc. shareholders approve a $69 billion sale to Microsoft Corp on Thursday, Wall Street is betting that Biden antitrust enforcers could unravel one of the largest mergers in U.S. history.
Shares of the gaming juggernaut are trading 25% below Microsoft’s $95 offer, indicating investors see risk the buyout won’t close as planned. This risk premium is more than double that of Twitter Inc. following Elon Musk’s offer, and higher than most of the announced -- but still pending -- deals tracked by Bloomberg.
Tough-talk from President Joe Biden’s antitrust enforcers is fueling investor fears that the deal could be blocked or subject to delays even if it prevails, said Matt Perault of New Street Research. Plus, the deal will also need approval by other governments including the European Union and China.
The merger, which has until June 2023 to close, would make Microsoft the world’s No. 3 gaming company, and would give it ownership over two of the most recognizable gaming brands on the planet in Call of Duty and World of Warcraft. Microsoft would also gain control of Candy Crush developer King, which made $2.58 billion in revenue last year.
Activision shareholders will vote Thursday and are expected to approve the deal, according to Betty Chan, a merger-arbitrage specialist at Elevation LLC. SOC Investment Group, an activist shareholder group with a small stake, earlier this month encouraged shareholders to vote down the deal and Microsoft’s offer of $95 a share. That group and other investors have spoken out against a potential golden parachute for embattled Activision Chief Executive Officer Bobby Kotick, who is expected to leave once the deal closes and will walk away with more than $375 million.
The deal will be reviewed by the Federal Trade Commission, which is led by Lina Khan, who has long advocated for a more forceful approach to reviewing deals, particularly by the biggest technology companies. Under her leadership, the agency has blocked Nvidia Corp.’s acquisition of Arm Ltd. as well as Lockheed Martin Corp.’s deal for Aerojet Rocketdyne Holdings Inc. She also resurrected the FTC’s monopoly case against Meta Platforms Inc., which seeks to split off WhatsApp and Instagram.
Fears of a legal challenge are well-founded, based on Khan’s statements opposing growth via acquisitions by big tech platforms, said Jennifer Rie, an antitrust analyst with Bloomberg Intelligence. Plus, it’s likely the FTC will have a Democratic majority by the time a decision has to be made, alleviating a stalemate that may have caused inaction on the Amazon-MGM merger, Rie said.
Not everyone is worried. Wedbush Securities analyst Michael Pachter places the odds of an FTC lawsuit at 10%, and chances of winning a case at 0% due to the difficulty in defining the concentrated market that this merger would cause. Microsoft wouldn’t have a massive share in the market for console games or videogames at-large, and current antitrust law overlooks so-called freemium business models common in gaming, Pachter said.
He attributes market fear to lack of familiarity with the video-game industry and the FTC’s tough-talk on mergers. The agency “can’t win this one -- so if they can’t win, they’re not going to sue. And Microsoft’s going to call their bluff.” Biden’s new antitrust chiefs have said they’re willing to take risks on big cases.
Even if an FTC challenge doesn’t ultimately prevail, a protracted legal fight could prompt the companies to abandon the deal, analysts said. Despite being the nation’s second-largest company, Microsoft has escaped much of the scrutiny lobbed at its peers. Its experience with regulators and proactive communications about the deal could make a difference in winning approval, said Elevation’s Chan.
“We are optimistic on the outcome at this point, but are still doing work to get more comfort on this.” Chan said.
Kotick to recognize the Raven Software union and begin negotiations.
June 10, 2022
Team,
I wanted to share the news that we will begin negotiations with the Communications Workers of America related to the 27 quality assurance employees at Raven Software, the majority of whom have chosen to be represented by this union. With the election having concluded, we will engage in good faith negotiations to enter into a collective bargaining agreement.
While first labor contracts can take some time to complete, we will meet CWA leaders at the bargaining table and work toward an agreement that supports the success of all our employees, that further strengthens our commitment to create the industry’s best, most welcoming and inclusive workplace, and enhances our ability to deliver world class games for our players.
We begin this process after major investments in our QA team members over the past couple years, including significantly increasing starting pay for QA specialists and converting over 1,100 U.S.-based temporary and contingent QA workers to full-time positions. This conversion is providing access to comprehensive company benefits for QA employees and their eligible dependents. In addition, we have expanded access to performance bonuses for QA employees and learning and development opportunities. We also have integrated QA more seamlessly into the game development process, increasing collaboration that results in better products for our players and more opportunities for our teams.
This is a time of great opportunity for our company. I want to thank you for the passion, skill, and commitment you bring each day to create great games, to embrace opportunities to make this the industry’s very best place to work, and to connect and engage our players around the world.
Big day where ms is going to be neutral on unions forming if they're able to finish purchasing activation blizzard. Don't know if I totally believe it but it's at least a clear statement.
MS knows their neutral position doesn't mean much. M$ knows the employees themselves do not want to be in a union. That is why only 21 people formed a micro-union within a company of 10,000 at a subsidiary of ~400.
How many software engineering//comp sci students and recent grads that you've met in your lifetime aspire to be in a union? I've met approximately zero and I've met hundreds over the years.
All the comp sci and software engineering classmates I had wanted their degree as a ticket to working in the USA or some place outside of Canada. They don't see their education and professional development as a way to join a union. They see it as a way to build their own unique work situation.... so they can live their life... their way. The exact opposite of union work life.
Unions are about insuring stable working hours for its members. My report writer add-on tool REPLACES coders... and ELIMINATES coding hours.
Most of the orgs that buy my software and support package immediately ditch 2 employees. In some instances they've been able to cut in half their entire IT department after fully understanding how to use my software package. I'd get kicked out of the union for replacing humans with machines. If the UAW represented Crystal Reports coders they'd probably have my offices SWATTED.
If my area of work were unionized we'd all still be using RPG3 from 1978 because improving on it cost 1000s of jobs.
My example is but one of many hundreds. Do you know how many IT employees get axed when the org purchases the Arnica Web Portal? Or how many hours of "software work" disappear when the software shop purchases ICOMOON?
Assembling a car on a factory line or doing shift work as an ER Nurse is the type of work where unions fit well. The whole union paradigm is incongruent with crafting software in NA.
It is possible the entry level , very front line testers MIGHT have work activities similar to the jobs I described above. MAYBE. Beyond that small group ... a union at a software shop is useless.
If technological improvements outright replaced labour we’d have mass unemployment as is. That excess productivity enables people to shift elsewhere.
A big modern studio encompasses software development, artists, QA testers who as yet can’t be replaced in the ‘feedback on how the game feels to play’ sense, HR and customer service departments. Plus management of all those constituent components.
There’s plenty of scope for unions in such a multifaceted organisation, and membership is elective anyway.
Given the wide range of industries and roles in which unions exist, there’s considerable divergence in how they operate. The Writer’s Guild(s) aren’t going to be remotely making the same demands or presenting the same terms as a large union representing manufacturing workers.
Hell if they so desired devs could form a single issue union over eliminating crunch periods
Given how the main gripes around Blizzard/also the wider field are said so industry practices, and abysmal handling of sexual harassment and not particularly pay or other working conditions it seems that, or something similar would be the route anyway.
On June 15 2022 04:12 WombaT wrote: Given how the main gripes around Blizzard/also the wider field are said so industry practices, and abysmal handling of sexual harassment and not particularly pay or other working conditions it seems that, or something similar would be the route anyway.
The claim that the handling of sexual harassment complaints was inadequate has yet to be tested. At this point its speculation and allegations. The most outrageous claims came out of the DFEH. This is outside DFEH's scope of investigation. That is EEOC territory. The DFEH expressly agreed to this division of territory as well. The DFEH then spewed out all kinds of crazy conspiracy theories with zero evidence. The DFEH was reprimanded by state judges repeatedly to stop picking fights with the EEOC. One judge recommended "marriage counselling" for the DFEH and EEOC. LOL. Finally, the leader of the DFEH investigation was fired.
ATVI claims the sexual harassment complaints were handled appropriately and that the # of complaints relative to the size of their org indicates they are a better than average employer in this area.
The EEOC and ATVI have settled. Until the DFEH and ATVI face each other head-on we won't know what occurred regarding the handling of sexual harassment claims. And, again, this isn't even within the scope of the DFEH. It'll be interesting to see if the DFEH fires back after ATVI's denial. With Jeanette Whipper gone and the 2 people that were directly under her moved off of the case ... I suspect the DFEH won't say anything.
On June 15 2022 04:12 WombaT wrote: A big modern studio encompasses software development, artists, QA testers who as yet can’t be replaced in the ‘feedback on how the game feels to play’ sense, HR and customer service departments. Plus management of all those constituent components.
There’s plenty of scope for unions in such a multifaceted organisation, and membership is elective anyway.
right and 21 out of 10,000 opted in. (21/10000) is the approximate level of interest i've noticed over the years for devs wanting to start a union. its almost zero.
On June 17 2022 17:03 JimmyJRaynor wrote: right and 21 out of 10,000 opted in. (21/10000) is the approximate level of interest i've noticed over the years for devs wanting to start a union. its almost zero.
It depends how and where you work. As a dev myself I also wasn't interested in it too much until I started working for a company that was really abusing their workers. I remember back then all the devs had secret meetings and we were talking to lawyers to figure out how to unionize (as I don't think there's any dev union in my country so it was kinda terra incognita for us).
It's kinda typical to not think about all the bad stuff that could happen to you until it actually happens and then it's a bit late to start figuring it out.
On June 17 2022 17:03 JimmyJRaynor wrote: right and 21 out of 10,000 opted in. (21/10000) is the approximate level of interest i've noticed over the years for devs wanting to start a union. its almost zero.
It depends how and where you work. As a dev myself I also wasn't interested in it too much until I started working for a company that was really abusing their workers.
Your best protection is to build a skillset and network of colleagues that gives you the option of working someplace else. Even better is get even more ambitious and build up your education and skillset giving you the option to work in the New York/Cali USA or Israel or some other country with amazing opportunities.
The UAW didn't save all those Michigan auto workers when the jobs moved to Ontario, Canada. The CAW was useless when GM shut down the Oshawa, Ontario auto assembly plant. OPSEU abandoned its Lab Techs.
A union won't save you when the company is cratering like ATVI is right now. A union won't save you when that cratering company is getting acquired.
As we've seen with the governor of California and Jeanette Whipper relying on the state governments to protect your rights as a worker is a fool's errand.
Your best protection is to craft great software... then sell your skills and/or your products to the highest bidder. This protection is a metric tonne of hard work though. There are no easy solutions to surviving in the shark tank.
On June 18 2022 09:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Even better is get even more ambitious and build up your education and skillset giving you the option to work in the New York/Cali USA or Israel or some other country with amazing opportunities.
LOL. I will never work for a big tech company in US (or anywhere else) ever again. Can't stand all the corporate bullshit. I'm perfectly fine working for smaller projects, especially in the R&D field, the pay is good, the work is interesting and there's none of the big corp crap to worry about.
I did work for some of the top big corps in the world, not interested in repeating that. Just like I know I won't be taking on tech lead, scrum master or project manager positions again. Not my cup of tea. I'm perfectly fine just being an ordinary dev in an interesting project. Gotta have priorities in life and one of mine is to actually have a life besides work (and having work that doesn't drain you and you actually enjoy doing).
I never said work for a big tech company in the USA. I recommend avoiding big tech giants. I got hired by a 15 person outfit in upstate New York and Toronto before I graduated. Then, I started my own shop two years after graduating. I took an ignored product and three of their customers with me.
ABK is on another funding drive. They started it 2 days ago. So far they've managed to bring in a whopping $9. LOL.
Everyone except Bobby is gone. Jeanette Whipper is gone... the woman who started A Better ABK is gone. The top 2 people investigating for the DFEH have been moved off the case. The Wall Street Journal author who penned the "Bobby Kotick knew..." piece is gone. She got crushed after the Warren Buffett/ATVI conspiracy theory hit piece where she got the basic stock price #s wrong. LOL. And, one Robert R. Kotick Junior is still running the show. (i have no idea if R is his middle initial... it just sounds cooler).
Regarding unions at Blizz. Ironically, Blizzard is less unionized than it was five years ago. When they shut down the Versailles office their union representation went down to something very close to zero.
On June 18 2022 10:17 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Regarding unions at Blizz. Ironically, Blizzard is less unionized than it was five years ago. When they shut down the Versailles office their union representation went down to something very close to zero.
I don't think ironic is the word you're looking for. In any event, given the quality of their games, the release of Diablo for Folks with Holes in Their Pockets, and all the information coming out about their working environment and leadership, I don't think the drop in unionization corresponds to an upward trend for Blizzard in those 5 years. So I don't know what your point is on that. I'm glad this all remains an amusing spectator sport to you, though.
It shouldn’t need saying because it’s so obvious but the solution for a bad work environment can’t be that every employee must be better than their peers. That solution will by design condemn a lot of people to abuse.
It’s bizarre to me that you can’t see this. A union is basically a group of people working together to not let a hungry polar bear in and you’re here saying that the best answer to the hungry polar bear problem is working on your cardio so that you personally can escape it. You’re not wrong that outrunning your peers will allow you to personally solve the polar bear problem as it relates to you but you are completely missing the point of what we’re trying to do here. The goal is that nobody gets eaten, your continued insistence that outrunning your peers protects you from being eaten is irrelevant.
I don't think Raynor cares about a group of people. He places the blame on the victim for any abuses or exploitation a worker experiences in the tech space. That they should just avoid it and that not avoiding it is their fault for experiencing it.
Good. I honestly the CCP shit cans the game and Blizz takes a loss.
HONG KONG, June 20 (Reuters) - Internet and gaming giant NetEase (9999.HK) delayed the rollout of its video game Diablo Immortal in China three days ahead of its official launch, a move that comes just after the game's official account on Weibo was banned from making new posts.
China-based NetEase, which was set to release the game on Thursday, did not provide a new launch date, but said on Sunday it wanted to make changes such as improvements to the game-play experience and conduct "multiple optimization adjustments".
The company did not address the social media ban in the statement and it was unclear what triggered the decision. NetEase also did not respond to a Reuters' request for comment.
Co-developed by NetEase and Activision Blizzard (ATVI.O), Diablo Immortal is one of the most-anticipated games this year and its China launch is being closely watched to gauge Beijing's attitude towards the country's $46-billion video games market that was hit by sweeping regulatory crackdowns last year.
The company received a gaming license from Chinese regulators for the game last February, before authorities months later rolled out new rules and halted issuances of new game licenses for almost nine months. The nod had garnered attention as the Diablo franchise focuses on slaying demons and witches — themes seen to jar with Chinese regulators' dislike of games with violent or religious content.
Diablo Immortal was already released outside of China on June 2, and as per app-tracking platform App Magic, it has earned over $24 million during the first two weeks since the rollout. The China launch was expected to give the title another boost as the Asian country would be the game's biggest market.
The title had recorded pre-registrations from over 15 million users last week, according to NetEase.
Shares of the company slid more than 9% on Monday.
Video game publisher Activision Blizzard’s lawyers and employees were back in front of the National Labor Relations Board this week, arguing over who should get to vote on a potential Blizzard Albany union. Activision Blizzard’s lawyers have framed much of their argument in the Blizzard Albany hearing around the highly anticipated upcoming Blizzard game “Diablo IV.”
At stake in the hearing is which Blizzard Albany workers will be able to participate in a unionization vote. Speaking at a virtual hearing over the video conference platform Zoom, the company’s lawyers stated the position that anyone at the Blizzard Albany studio working on Diablo games should get a vote. Meanwhile, employees’ counsel asked for a group of 20 quality assurance testers to constitute the bargaining unit. The testers at Blizzard Albany seek to unionize to bargain for improved working conditions and higher wages.
“I think it’s very cut and dry,” said a current Blizzard Albany quality assurance tester, speaking on the condition of anonymity, referencing a document lawyers showed of employees’ salaries and hourly wages. "[It’s] obvious that QA is a valid unit. [Activision Blizzard] introduced the pay bands, which indicate that we are the lowest paid members of the studio by a long shot.”
Quality assurance testers at Blizzard Albany are paid between $33,000 and $53,000 annually, according to a document shared by the QA testers’ lawyers during this week’s hearing. The group of 20 quality assurance testers at the Albany, N.Y.-based studio requested recognition of a union in July, but management did not voluntarily recognize them.
“The instinct to delay unionization efforts is always there on the part of employers,” said Wilma Liebman, former chairman of the National Labor Relations Board under former president Barack Obama. “The reasons for wanting the delay may be manifold, including not only the obvious — delay what may be inevitable — but for possible transactional reasons [with Microsoft.]”
Microsoft is purchasing Activision Blizzard for nearly $69 billion in an all-cash deal, pending regulatory approval. The Xbox and Windows maker previously said in June it would respect the rights of Activision Blizzard workers to join a union.
Activision Blizzard wants to increase the eligible voting group for a union election at Blizzard Albany, arguing that additional — but not all — workers at the studio should be included.
“We believe all our employees should have the right to choose whether or not to join a union in a fair and confidential vote,” Activision Blizzard spokesman Rich George said. “Given our tightly integrated Albany operations, we believe strongly that no employee should be disenfranchised and that creativity, inspiration and the free exchange of ideas work best when all nonsupervisory employees in Albany working on Diablo get to participate in the vote, not just 20 quality assurance testers identified by the union.”
Increasing the size of the voting pool could dilute the voting power of the 20 QA testers, labor lawyers say, potentially causing the unionization vote to fail.
Blizzard Albany is the second Activision Blizzard studio that has attempted to unionize at the company, which is facing multiple investigations over sexual harassment. Known for its work on franchises including Guitar Hero and Crash Bandicoot under its former name, Vicarious Visions, the studio officially merged with Activision Blizzard in April to become Blizzard Albany. The studio’s quality assurance department there took cues for its organizing campaign from Raven Software, another Activision-owned studio in Madison, Wis., where on May 28 QA testers won their bid to unionize. They are currently undergoing bargaining efforts for a contract.
While counsel for management has revisited many of the arguments it used against Raven Software quality assurance testers, there’s one notable difference: As part of an opening speech, Reed Smith lawyers representing Activision Blizzard played a “Diablo IV” trailer to explain what the company does. When the video began, a voice-over stated the game was not for the faint-of-heart and was both gory and creepy.
“How are we going to put this into the record?” asked Ruth Basantes, the National Labor Relations Board hearing officer overseeing the Monday meeting. Reed Smith lawyer James Polk responded by spelling out the YouTube link for the court reporter using a series of letters and symbols.
The upcoming dark fantasy action role-playing game, in which players battle various hellspawn, is slated for release sometime next year. Throughout the labor hearing this week, Activision Blizzard lawyers supplied internal conversations, spreadsheets and other notes that shared insights on what gamers can expect in “Diablo IV.” One document described feedback given by gamers on “Diablo IV,” including one person saying the game was difficult but not in a fun way, as retrieving gear from one’s own dead body after dying was tough.
“It is darkly ironic that if an employee wants to be able to update their portfolio or do something that might help them find better employment elsewhere, they have to wait until the game is released,” said one current Blizzard Albany employee, who also spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media. “But when the company wants to argue against what the majority of employees in a given unit have stated is in their best interest and what they want, it’s totally fine for them to just share stuff.”
A list of quality assurance testers working on “Diablo IV” was also publicized in the hearing, as were the cover letter, LinkedIn and social media account of a quality assurance tester. While quality assurance testers are usually recognized in a game’s credits, along with thousands of others who helped create the game, the singling out of the testers and public disclosure of the QA tester’s information angered some employees concerned with online harassment.
“Given how toxic a lot of fandoms and gamers can be, it’s pretty upsetting to see [everyone’s names] publicized when it didn’t really have to be like this,” the employee said. “This didn’t have to be a fight that went to the NLRB. [Management] could’ve just chosen to recognize the unit.”
During the hearing, Activision Blizzard’s lawyers argued that while employees working on Diablo games at Blizzard Albany should be eligible to vote in a union election, those at the studio working on “World of Warcraft” or “Overwatch” should not. It’s unclear why the lawyers took a different approach from February, when they argued all of Raven Software should vote on a union — not just their quality assurance testers. A majority of votes (50 percent plus one) is needed to form a union.
George, the Activision Blizzard spokesman, said in a statement that “some employees working at Albany are not included in our proposal, as they either work on non-Diablo projects or are ineligible (for example, they might manage people).” The Post asked specifically why workers on other games should not participate in the Blizzard Albany union vote, but the company had not replied at the time of publication Friday.
Employees said the “Diablo IV” team at Blizzard Albany is integrated with the Irvine, Calif.-based team that is also working on the title, while those working on other games at Blizzard Albany interface more regularly with other teams.
“Diablo IV” is a title slated for later next year, and takes place after the events of “Diablo III” when demons and angels killed millions. The “Diablo IV” documents were shared by lawyers while elsewhere online, players trying the game in a beta test have been leaking footage.
On Monday, employees across Activision Blizzard executed a protest during the virtual hearing, with several dozen workers attending the Zoom hearing with their pictures saying “ABK Stop Union Busting,” or changing their display name to “stop union busting,” which irked Activision Blizzard’s lawyers. Polk, the Reed Smith lawyer, objected to the protesters, calling them potentially “disruptive” and asking that the NLRB remove those images and have people change their names. In response, the board hearing officer Basantes said the virtual hearing was akin to an in-person one, where anyone could attend and those in attendance wouldn’t know others’ names on sight. Basantes then allowed protesters to rename themselves to “Guest,” which allowed more than one Activision Blizzard employee to rejoin the meeting without worrying about their employer noting their real names.
On Thursday, Basantes revisited the protest incident, saying: “As I recall, no one was being disruptive. So there was no need to kick anyone out of the meeting.” She made an analogy that if people had been wearing shirts with slogans to an in-person hearing, they wouldn’t be asked to give their real names or to change their shirts.
Kayla Blado, press secretary for the NLRB, said to expect a decision in the coming weeks. Activision Blizzard still has to submit its briefs by Aug. 25 before the hearing officer can make a decision.
On June 18 2022 16:19 Magic Powers wrote: I mean Raynor did say it's possible for anyone to just leave their job whenever they want. No consequences to consider, we all exist in a vacuum.
uhhh no. as part of any career plan entering a garbage industry like video gaming one always insures one has lots of options BEFORE one takes any new job. The industry has been garbage since Namco paid a guy $35K to make a game that went on to generate over a billion dollars in 1980. The industry has been garbage since Mattel went very far out of its way to give zero recognition to its developers giving them the code name "the Blue Sky Rangers". Mattel bullshitted and lied for years about the "keyboard component" allowing a generation of kids to tell their parents... "it'll be a computer"... when really... the Intellivision was just a video game.
The industry has been garbage since David Crane, Bob Whitehead, et al left Atari in 1979. Their games made 100s of millions while they were paid peanuts and Atari did everything it could to give them zero credit for their great work.
So, the industry has been garbage for many decades. Any one entering this garbage industry while doing zero research sets themselves up for a rude awakening from the adolescent dream world these corps market to the masses Whatever the employees bought out of the lying corporate recruiters sales pitch.. CAVEAT EMPTOR.
On August 14 2022 06:33 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Video game publisher Activision Blizzard’s lawyers and employees were back in front of the National Labor Relations Board this week, arguing over who should get to vote on a potential Blizzard Albany union.
Upstate New York is a great place to work. On a single 90K salary people can usually afford a fully detached house less than a thirty minute drive from the office in the "big city".
Uh oh... Not sure how this limit say in the US if the UK says they don't approve or even allow such a deal. What would happen in say Europe. Would they allow games to be sold there?
Now it appears the EU will be looking into the acquisition. Which begs the question, say the EU disapproves of the acquisition and it happens anyways... in the US that is. Would MS/Activision just lose the entire European market in one fell swoop?
Microsoft's $68.7 billion acquisition of Activision Blizzard is expected to be investigated extensively by both UK and EU regulators.
Earlier this month, the UK's Competition and Markets Authority recommended it begin a second-phase investigation into impact of the deal, concerned that Microsoft's ownership of Activision Blizzard would "result in a substantial lessening of competition within a market or markets in the United Kingdom."
Microsoft was given five business days to supply evidence that would allay these concerns, but the Financial Times reports it has opted not to do so.
Sources familiar with the situation told the FT that Microsoft believed there were no obvious commitments it could make that the CMA would be likely to accept.
As such, an in-depth investigation is expected to start this week.
The FT's sources also expect a similar situation with regulators in the European Union.
Both Activison and Xbox have been in pre-notification talks with regulators in Brussels since January, with Microsoft expected to officially file its case in the coming weeks.
People familiar with the process expect regulators to carry out a more scrutinous investigation due to its size and potential impact.
"It's a big deal, a difficult deal," a source from Brussels told the FT. "It needs an extensive investigation."
One point of contention remains the implications for Xbox's main rival Sony, especially with the possibility of making Call of Duty – one of the biggest games franchises in the world – exclusive to Microsoft's platforms.
Xbox has repeatedly assured it will not do this, at least not in the short term, with Xbox boss Phil Spencer recently revealing the company was making an agreement to keep Call of Duty on PlayStation for "several more years."
PlayStation CEO Jim Ryan responded via a statement to GamesIndustry.biz, claiming the proposed deal was "inadequate on many levels."
In the wake of the CMA's recommendations for a longer investigation, Activision Blizzard CEO Bobby Kotick said he still expects the acquisition to be approved and completed by the end of June 2023.
Update: Sony has responded to the CMA's decision to further investigate the acquisition, and says it "welcomes the announcement."
"By giving Microsoft control of Activision games like Call of Duty, this deal would have major negative implications for gamers and the future of the gaming industry," the firm said in a statement to GamesIndustry.biz. "We want to guarantee PlayStation gamers continue to have the highest quality gaming experience, and we appreciate the CMA’s focus on protecting gamers."
Microsoft has responded to Sony's comment regarding the shooter franchise. In a statement to us, a spokesperson said: "It makes zero business sense for Microsoft to remove Call of Duty from PlayStation given its market leading console position."
Happy Thanksgiving to Phil Spencer, and Bobby Kot- oh...
The Federal Trade Commission will "likely" move to file an antitrust lawsuit against Microsoft and Activision Blizzard to block the companies' planned $69 billion merger deal. That's according to a new Politico report citing "three [unnamed] people with knowledge of the matter."
While Politico writes that a lawsuit is still "not guaranteed," it adds that FTC staffers "are skeptical of the companies' arguments" that the deal will not be anticompetitive. The sources also confirmed that "much of the heavy lifting is complete" in the commission's investigation, and that a suit could be filed as early as next month.
Sony, the main opponent of Microsoft's proposed purchase, has argued publicly that an existing contractual three-year guarantee to keep Activision's best-selling Call of Duty franchise on PlayStation is "inadequate on many levels." In response, Microsoft Head of Xbox Phil Spencer has publicly promised to continue shipping Call of Duty games on PlayStation "as long as there's a PlayStation out there to ship to." It's not clear if the companies have memorialized that offer as a legal agreement, though; The New York Times reported this week that Microsoft had offered a "10-year deal to keep Call of Duty on PlayStation."
Numerous statements from Microsoft executives, including Spencer, have suggested the company is less interested in bolstering its position in the "console wars" and more interested in boosting its mobile, cloud gaming, and Game Pass subscription offerings. Beyond Call of Duty, Politico reports that the FTC is concerned over how Microsoft "could leverage future, unannounced titles to boost its gaming business."
Microsoft "is prepared to address the concerns of regulators, including the FTC, and Sony to ensure the deal closes with confidence," spokesperson David Cuddy told Politico. "We'll still trail Sony and Tencent in the market after the deal closes, and together Activision and Xbox will benefit gamers and developers and make the industry more competitive."
Plenty of speed bumps remain
The reports of a potential FTC lawsuit add to a growing list of troubling signals about the proposed purchase from various international governments. Earlier this month, the European Commission said it was moving on to an "in-depth investigation" of the deal. In the UK, a similar "Phase 2" investigation by the country's Competition and Markets Authority has scheduled hearing for next month.
Those international investigations are expected to wrap up in March, ensuring the proposed deal won't close before then and giving the FTC some time before it would have to file suit. Any such lawsuit would need to be approved by a majority of the four current FTC commissioners and would likely start in the FTC's administrative court. And whatever the outcome, legal maneuvering in the case could easily delay the planned merger past a July 2023 contractual deadline, at which point both companies would have to renegotiate or abandon the deal.
An FTC lawsuit in this matter would also be a the strongest sign yet of a robust antitrust enforcement regime under FTC chair Lina Kahn, a big tech skeptic who was named to the post in June. Back in July, Kahn announced an antitrust lawsuit against Meta (formerly Facebook) and its proposed $400 million purchase of Within, makers of VR fitness app Supernatural.
Three months after Microsoft's proposed purchase was announced in January, a group of four US Senators wrote an open letter strongly urging the FTC to take a close look at the deal. Last month, merger news site Dealreporter said FTC staff had expressed "significant concerns" about the deal. And this week, the New York Times cited "two people" in reporting that the FTC had reached out to other companies for sworn statements laying out their concerns about the deal, a possible sign of lawsuit preparations.
On November 26 2022 15:21 thePunGun wrote: I really hope they don't block the merger. Because Phil Spencer is still interested in the idea of making another Starcraft rts. (souce)
After how poorly Microsoft handled AoE4 I'm not sure I want them making a SC3.
On November 26 2022 15:21 thePunGun wrote: I really hope they don't block the merger. Because Phil Spencer is still interested in the idea of making another Starcraft rts. (souce)
I’m unsure about the merger. Could lead to good things for us consumers, equally the approaching borderline monopoly that this could bring in may be a bad thing.
The FTC has filed suit to prevent Microsoft from acquiring Activision.
The FTC has filed a legal challenge to try and block Microsoft’s plan to buy Activision Blizzard for $68.7 billion, according to a press release from the regulator. The lawsuit was filed today after weeks of back and forth between Microsoft, Sony, and regulators over competition concerns and the future of Call of Duty. The FTC argues that the acquisition would “enable Microsoft to suppress competitors to its Xbox gaming consoles and its rapidly growing subscription content and cloud-gaming business.”
The vote from the FTC commissioners today means Microsoft now faces significant hurdles to get its Activision Blizzard deal complete. Regulators in the UK and EU are also scrutinizing the deal closely, despite Microsoft’s repeated attempts to appease regulators.
“Microsoft has already shown that it can and will withhold content from its gaming rivals,” said Holly Vedova, director of the FTC’s Bureau of Competition said in a statement. “Today we seek to stop Microsoft from gaining control over a leading independent game studio and using it to harm competition in multiple dynamic and fast-growing gaming markets.”
Microsoft offered Sony a 10-year deal on new Call of Duty games last month, but Sony hasn’t yet accepted the offer. A similar deal was agreed between Nintendo and Microsoft, though. It could see Call of Duty heading to Nintendo consoles if the Activision Blizzard deal is approved.
Microsoft’s frustrations over Sony’s objections to its Activision Blizzard deal have been clear. “Sony has emerged as the loudest objector,” said Microsoft president Brad Smith in a Wall Street Journal op-ed recently. “It’s as excited about this deal as Blockbuster was about the rise of Netflix.” Microsoft also described the UK’s Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) concerns as “misplaced” and accusing the regulator of adopting “Sony’s complaints without considering the potential harm to consumers.”
Microsoft has also accused Sony of paying developers to keep their content off of its Xbox Game Pass service, and Sony has even argued that Microsoft’s Activision Blizzard acquisition could “hurt developers and lead to price rises.”
looks like any possible victims will be waiting 5 to 15 years for even the possibility of getting a settlement via DFEH's legal actions. Probably better just to find another job rather than waiting for a government agency to solve your problems. No big surprise though... big government is great at being slow.
EPT
I asked, because I have never heard of anything like this before, but I live on the other side of the world so I could easily have missed similar cases. It would be interesting to know about rulings of earlier cases course, if the companies were found to be guilty. 
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