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United States42428 Posts
On May 23 2025 23:38 WombaT wrote:
Gaza will be a temporary international protectorate, security will be handled by international peacekeepers. Let things stabilise, ideally you return to some kind of Palestinian autonomy over time.
Far from a perfect plan by any means, but it’s not completely unfeasible considering some of the alternatives put forward in recent months.
This has been suggested a million times, mostly by Israel. The international community is always supportive of the idea of someone taking responsibility but no country wants to be directly involved.
Everyone likes the plan in theory but nobody wants to actually be the one who does it. Israel pushed the Arab coalition governing Gaza plan a year ago and it was completely shut down.
Israel’s frustration with the international community here is understandable. People claim not to want Hamas to rule but if you look at what they actually do their want is “not Israel, not me, but someone” and it amounts to leaving Hamas in place.
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Turns out no one wants responsibility over a hellhole full of radicalized children. Shocker.
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United States42428 Posts
On May 24 2025 00:47 Gorsameth wrote:
Turns out no one wants responsibility over a hellhole full of radicalized children. Shocker.
What if we just put things off for a few more decades, really let the intergenerational trauma build, and throw in some more unsustainable population growth. I bet if we do nothing for long enough we can achieve a perpetual state of starvation.
Not a dig at you by the way, a dig at the international community who decided for decades to let the situation snowball through inaction and are still advocating for what amounts to keeping the status quo.
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On May 24 2025 01:07 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 00:47 Gorsameth wrote:
Turns out no one wants responsibility over a hellhole full of radicalized children. Shocker. What if we just put things off for a few more decades, really let the intergenerational trauma build, and throw in some more unsustainable population growth. I bet if we do nothing for long enough we can achieve a perpetual state of starvation. Not a dig at you by the way, a dig at the international community who decided for decades to let the situation snowball through inaction and are still advocating for what amounts to keeping the status quo.
Is there a particular alternative you would promote?
Just curious.
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United States42428 Posts
On May 24 2025 01:24 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 01:07 KwarK wrote:On May 24 2025 00:47 Gorsameth wrote:
Turns out no one wants responsibility over a hellhole full of radicalized children. Shocker. What if we just put things off for a few more decades, really let the intergenerational trauma build, and throw in some more unsustainable population growth. I bet if we do nothing for long enough we can achieve a perpetual state of starvation. Not a dig at you by the way, a dig at the international community who decided for decades to let the situation snowball through inaction and are still advocating for what amounts to keeping the status quo. Is there a particular alternative you would promote? Just curious.
Do I have absolute powers to impose my solution on the countries involved?
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On May 24 2025 01:35 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 01:24 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 24 2025 01:07 KwarK wrote:On May 24 2025 00:47 Gorsameth wrote:
Turns out no one wants responsibility over a hellhole full of radicalized children. Shocker. What if we just put things off for a few more decades, really let the intergenerational trauma build, and throw in some more unsustainable population growth. I bet if we do nothing for long enough we can achieve a perpetual state of starvation. Not a dig at you by the way, a dig at the international community who decided for decades to let the situation snowball through inaction and are still advocating for what amounts to keeping the status quo. Is there a particular alternative you would promote? Just curious. Do I have absolute powers to impose my solution on the countries involved?
I would hope so, you seem like a common sense kinda guy.
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The problem with someone taking over Gaza's governance is that they should act as faithful representative and defender of Palestinians in all issues related to Gaza and Palestinians. There is really high chance that Israel would pressure against the governing body in their direct relations to get concession in matters related to Gaza. Israel could take even more direct action like raids, air strike, demolitions, etc. forcing the governing body to take protective actions which would of course harm their relations to Israel. It is also hard to see any country taking the task of protecting Palestinians seriously when it would be really hard to defend domestically. You can image how unpopular it would be to commit European soldier in defense of Palestinians. Thus, the outcome would like to be as effective in protecting Palestinians as Palestinian Authority is in West Bank. In the worst case the new governing body would just provide cover for Israel atrocities.
Anyone taking over governance would need heavy involvement by Palestinians and allowed to be effective in its duty. Israel will not allow that as it could lead to actions against settlers and other policies which would strengthen Palestinian claim to the land and their own state. We can just look at how big part of Israelis reacted to Oslo accords and which politicians have been in power in Israel afterwards. This is why there is need to impose major changes to Israel too.
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United States42428 Posts
On May 24 2025 01:44 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 01:35 KwarK wrote:On May 24 2025 01:24 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 24 2025 01:07 KwarK wrote:On May 24 2025 00:47 Gorsameth wrote:
Turns out no one wants responsibility over a hellhole full of radicalized children. Shocker. What if we just put things off for a few more decades, really let the intergenerational trauma build, and throw in some more unsustainable population growth. I bet if we do nothing for long enough we can achieve a perpetual state of starvation. Not a dig at you by the way, a dig at the international community who decided for decades to let the situation snowball through inaction and are still advocating for what amounts to keeping the status quo. Is there a particular alternative you would promote? Just curious. Do I have absolute powers to impose my solution on the countries involved? I would hope so, you seem like a common sense kinda guy.
Okay so first things first we're going to need money. Qatar and Iran seem to have shitloads of oil money to burn on things like making Gaza a hellhole. I'll need a few hundred bil of that. Not all at once though, hopefully they won't mind.
Gaza as a state is incapable of succeeding for demographic reasons. The inhabitants there can't know anything but overpopulation and deprivation because it's a giant refugee camp with a population that has grown exponentially for 70 years. We can't force success upon it because there is no version of normalcy that can be achieved for the Gazans within that context. Too many people, not enough space, no economy or infrastructure to speak of. We need a reset and that'll take "forced" relocations of maybe 90% of the Gazans.
I'm going to take a global census of the Palestinian diaspora and they're going to take the lead in integrating Gazans into their communities, not as refugees but as citizens with full rights. Keeping families together would be a priority, the census will help with that, hopefully a cousin or whatever living outside of Gaza can assist a family in integration. Hopefully Gazans will volunteer to move, I'd expect that given the circumstances in Gaza a lot of them would like the opportunity to live somewhere else as a full citizen. I'd like the Palestinian diaspora to take the lead on that and my priority would be that they remain within Palestinian communities worldwide and retain their cultural identity. Funds for integration, housing, schools etc. will come from the oil money I stole from Qatar so they probably won't have as much money for golden flying palaces but whatever, they'll make do. I'd also give their grandchildren right of return to Gaza. Hopefully they won't all use it at once but even if they do and I'm stuck with 30 million Gazans showing up in 2050 that'll still be better than what we'd have in 2050 if we do nothing.
Countries around the world aren't going to like accepting a bunch of refugees and giving them full citizen rights but that's why I took absolute powers.
Gaza will remain Gazan. The remaining 10% of Gazans I left behind will have a functioning state built for them. They'll eat food from Gazan farms, work jobs in factories located within Gaza etc. That means Israel will have to give back all the buffer they've seized but they'll live. Israel will also have to provide a lot of the primary economic ecosystem at first, buying goods, selling raw materials etc. while the Gazan economy grows out of nothing. Israel will also be forbidden from bombing the place, even if there's a rocket attack. If I'm spending a shitload of money building schools and trying to rehabilitate a traumatized population then I don't want my schools bombed. Even if someone fires a rocket. Gaza will also be self governing to the extent that anywhere in this world where I'm an absolute ruler is self governing. But if it decides to invade Israel then I'll say "no" so I guess in reality I'm appointing leaders who share my vision there?
While I'm at it I'll get rid of Israel's leadership, do a bunch of war crimes trials and hang a lot of people. People who ordered firing on ambulances, people who fired at ambulances, people who killed children throwing stones, and people in government who presided over it all. Lots of hanging.
I'll undo all the settlements on the West Bank as a good faith gesture at achieving an equitable peace. Sorry Israeli settlers but you're getting evicted. Probably should have thought of that before you bulldozed Palestinian villages to settle there. You'll live.
In the long term we're probably going to be aiming for a one state solution which means something like a Northern Ireland political system. In the short term I don't see Gazans and Israelis playing nicely together but Israel already has a substantial Palestinian minority which seems to do okay so there's something to build on. When we do our one state solution we're probably going to scrap Israel entirely and make a new state with a new constitution that recognizes the sins of the past and attempts to rectify some of the injustices.
Absolutely none of that is realistic of course but it's miles better than what will actually happen over our lifetimes.
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On May 24 2025 02:09 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2025 01:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 24 2025 01:35 KwarK wrote:On May 24 2025 01:24 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 24 2025 01:07 KwarK wrote:On May 24 2025 00:47 Gorsameth wrote:
Turns out no one wants responsibility over a hellhole full of radicalized children. Shocker. What if we just put things off for a few more decades, really let the intergenerational trauma build, and throw in some more unsustainable population growth. I bet if we do nothing for long enough we can achieve a perpetual state of starvation. Not a dig at you by the way, a dig at the international community who decided for decades to let the situation snowball through inaction and are still advocating for what amounts to keeping the status quo. Is there a particular alternative you would promote? Just curious. Do I have absolute powers to impose my solution on the countries involved? I would hope so, you seem like a common sense kinda guy. Okay so first things first we're going to need money. Qatar and Iran seem to have shitloads of oil money to burn on things like making Gaza a hellhole. I'll need a few hundred bil of that. Not all at once though, hopefully they won't mind. Gaza as a state is incapable of succeeding for demographic reasons. The inhabitants there can't know anything but overpopulation and deprivation because it's a giant refugee camp with a population that has grown exponentially for 70 years. We can't force success upon it because there is no version of normalcy that can be achieved for the Gazans within that context. Too many people, not enough space, no economy or infrastructure to speak of. We need a reset and that'll take "forced" relocations of maybe 90% of the Gazans. I'm going to take a global census of the Palestinian diaspora and they're going to take the lead in integrating Gazans into their communities, not as refugees but as citizens with full rights. Keeping families together would be a priority, the census will help with that, hopefully a cousin or whatever living outside of Gaza can assist a family in integration. Hopefully Gazans will volunteer to move, I'd expect that given the circumstances in Gaza a lot of them would like the opportunity to live somewhere else as a full citizen. I'd like the Palestinian diaspora to take the lead on that and my priority would be that they remain within Palestinian communities worldwide and retain their cultural identity. Funds for integration, housing, schools etc. will come from the oil money I stole from Qatar so they probably won't have as much money for golden flying palaces but whatever, they'll make do. I'd also give their grandchildren right of return to Gaza. Hopefully they won't all use it at once but even if they do and I'm stuck with 30 million Gazans showing up in 2050 that'll still be better than what we'd have in 2050 if we do nothing. Countries around the world aren't going to like accepting a bunch of refugees and giving them full citizen rights but that's why I took absolute powers. Gaza will remain Gazan. The remaining 10% of Gazans I left behind will have a functioning state built for them. They'll eat food from Gazan farms, work jobs in factories located within Gaza etc. That means Israel will have to give back all the buffer they've seized but they'll live. Israel will also have to provide a lot of the primary economic ecosystem at first, buying goods, selling raw materials etc. while the Gazan economy grows out of nothing. Israel will also be forbidden from bombing the place, even if there's a rocket attack. If I'm spending a shitload of money building schools and trying to rehabilitate a traumatized population then I don't want my schools bombed. Even if someone fires a rocket. Gaza will also be self governing to the extent that anywhere in this world where I'm an absolute ruler is self governing. But if it decides to invade Israel then I'll say "no" so I guess in reality I'm appointing leaders who share my vision there? While I'm at it I'll get rid of Israel's leadership, do a bunch of war crimes trials and hang a lot of people. People who ordered firing on ambulances, people who fired at ambulances, people who killed children throwing stones, and people in government who presided over it all. Lots of hanging. I'll undo all the settlements on the West Bank as a good faith gesture at achieving an equitable peace. Sorry Israeli settlers but you're getting evicted. Probably should have thought of that before you bulldozed Palestinian villages to settle there. You'll live. In the long term we're probably going to be aiming for a one state solution which means something like a Northern Ireland political system. In the short term I don't see Gazans and Israelis playing nicely together but Israel already has a substantial Palestinian minority which seems to do okay so there's something to build on. When we do our one state solution we're probably going to scrap Israel entirely and make a new state with a new constitution that recognizes the sins of the past and attempts to rectify some of the injustices. Absolutely none of that is realistic of course but it's miles better than what will actually happen over our lifetimes.
Runs mostly along my thoughts, except the relocation and hangings. I'd say you need supervision of the educational content in Gaza in the first years as well.
Israel hasn't really retaliated big time towards rockets as the Iron Dome is more than capable to fend off singular attacks. So I doubt you'd have much trouble in regards to your proposal from the Israeli side, especially once the right wingers have been taken out of office. Perhaps you'd have to give them some strategic spots of the WB and Gaza, if there is no complete demilitarization of the Palestinians. Or you don't, as you'd be the leader supreme.
What I still am trying to wrap my head around is the religiously absolutist idea of Israel's destruction on the holy Muslim land through Jihad. Or what about the infidels occupying the Temple Mount/Al Aqsa? Jerusalem?
These are religious affronts and they are extremely hard to tackle, especially when one side doesn't give two shits about the inclusion of other religions or believes in an existential and/or eschatological narrative. Ideological absolutism doesn't end through negotiation. It either ends through ideological discrediting through younger generations, strategic defeat (which will cost thousands of lives), reformation within Islam (can be possible as seen in UAE or Jordan) or exhaustion. But none of this is fast or guarantees a stable, true reconciliation until future generations root these thoughts out entirely.
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The reason why Gaza is riddled with problems like unsustainable population growth and absolute lack of economic opportunity is because Palestinians have been corralled into it for decades, it has been blockaded and fenced off and on top of that it's been regularly bombed and as the Israeli called it "land mowed" every 5ish years.
These conditions are a surefire recipe to both radicalize a population as well as drive them into making as many children as possible (just like every other country with extreme poverty) and these factors have been multiplied by Israel's strategy of denying them water resources and destroying their arable land.
This is why it's absurd to me that anyone with "absolute power" would decide that further punishing these people as well as the countries that housed millions of refugees from this situation so far is fair and they are the ones that should be baring the largest burden.
To me, if I had a magic wand I'd go back to Oslo accords and force both sides to stick to them. This would provide Palestinians enough land and resources to unburden Gaza a bit, it would allow them to move back to settlements that they were driven out of and if Israel didn't fuck with them I'm sure that they'd be able to feed their populations. I'd let Palestinians have free and open elections after all this and present them with an option of a guy who I've been grooming and who's been helping devise these plans this whole time, still a Muslim but someone who preaches the good parts of Islam, a technocrat who'd be able to tell them "we got the war thing fixed let me fix the rest". Then I'd send thousands of therapists and doctors to both Israel and Palestine (now a full fledged state, Gaza as the capital and with all of the west bank territories that belong to them according to Oslo as their territory) and have them do PTSP therapy, perhaps with MDMA, Shrooms and LSD in order to help them get over these generational traumas.
Hopefully that would allow them to get over their shit and to understand that Jerusalem is to be shared (as per Oslo accords), all the people in Israel who actively propped up Hamas would be publicly trialed and thrown to prison, same goes for every remaining Hamas member, both political and military wings.
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United States42428 Posts
Time machine or magic wand would help a lot but without one it doesn’t matter why Gaza got how it is, you can’t make a working Gaza for all of the people living there today. No matter how pro Palestinian you are, Gaza’s demography only works as a prison. Something has to give, either you change the prison part or you change the demography.
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On May 24 2025 21:10 Jankisa wrote:
The reason why Gaza is riddled with problems like unsustainable population growth and absolute lack of economic opportunity is because Palestinians have been corralled into it for decades, it has been blockaded and fenced off and on top of that it's been regularly bombed and as the Israeli called it "land mowed" every 5ish years.
These conditions are a surefire recipe to both radicalize a population as well as drive them into making as many children as possible (just like every other country with extreme poverty) and these factors have been multiplied by Israel's strategy of denying them water resources and destroying their arable land.
This is why it's absurd to me that anyone with "absolute power" would decide that further punishing these people as well as the countries that housed millions of refugees from this situation so far is fair and they are the ones that should be baring the largest burden.
To me, if I had a magic wand I'd go back to Oslo accords and force both sides to stick to them. This would provide Palestinians enough land and resources to unburden Gaza a bit, it would allow them to move back to settlements that they were driven out of and if Israel didn't fuck with them I'm sure that they'd be able to feed their populations. I'd let Palestinians have free and open elections after all this and present them with an option of a guy who I've been grooming and who's been helping devise these plans this whole time, still a Muslim but someone who preaches the good parts of Islam, a technocrat who'd be able to tell them "we got the war thing fixed let me fix the rest". Then I'd send thousands of therapists and doctors to both Israel and Palestine (now a full fledged state, Gaza as the capital and with all of the west bank territories that belong to them according to Oslo as their territory) and have them do PTSP therapy, perhaps with MDMA, Shrooms and LSD in order to help them get over these generational traumas.
Hopefully that would allow them to get over their shit and to understand that Jerusalem is to be shared (as per Oslo accords), all the people in Israel who actively propped up Hamas would be publicly trialed and thrown to prison, same goes for every remaining Hamas member, both political and military wings.
A lot of true notions here as well. But in the end, it is not only the Palestinians that get radicalized into a desire to free the holy land and destroy Israel. Moderately wealthy nations who are nearing nuclear technology also are hell bent on that goal, so reducing desperation might reduce some forms of radicalization but the embedded theological rejection of Israel's existence won't be addressed by that.
So while I agree that the conditions in Gaza help to nurture radicalization, the theological specter won't be erased by better living conditions or socio-economic factors alone. And as long as it is not gone, the reason for war will continue to exist too.
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Well, we can also argue that major reason why Israel is being expansionist is because of their religious mandate to rule all of their Holy land.
Jordan is an example of a state that has very similar demographics as Palestine but because of geography hasn't been the target of endless strife with Israel, they seem to be doing fine, so why is all the blame for Gazans being radicalized leveled at them and Islam as a religion.
I'm a staunch atheist, I believe all religions are shitty and I firmly believe that Islam is the worse of them, you won't find me defending it if I can help it but the way people talk about these people like they are radicalized children with no will of their own is extremely disturbing to me and it plays in the overall dehumanization tactic of Israel.
It's the same way that people in the Ukraine thread are talking about Ukrainians, they are tools of the west, they have been manipulated and they should just roll over and accept that they are in Russia's sphere of influence...
These are real people that the whole world gave up on because of a cardinal sin of giving Hamas some votes a generation ago, most of the people in Gaza weren't alive or were way too young to vote during the last election there, these same people have been bombed and brutalized for 20 years by Israel now and now Israel is asking others to fix this problem for them, all the while they are bombing a few dozen of them out of existence at a time while claiming that they are just defending themselves.
That is what is extremely fucked up to me.
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As far as "religious ideology" is concern, I believe no one is better than the other. There are plenty of atrocities happened over the centuries in the name of religion, islam or otherwise.
As far as crazy religious ideology is concern, let's look at the evangelical christian in america. They support zionism stem from the believe that once the jews get control of the land of palestine, the god will come and purge (kill all of) the "non-believers". If you think about it for a second, they are attempting to execute a genocide.
It is not the religion being good or bad, it is how the people practice them.
I will leave you with a tagline from an excellent Indian film.
"Which god should I believe? You all say that, it's only one god. I say, no... there are two gods. One is the one who created us all. The other one is the one created by people like you."
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2338151/?ref_=ls_t_6
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Yes, and more people are exposed to terror and poverty more they turn to religion, which is why blaming Gazans for being radical Islamists who need to be forcibly removed because there is no way they can co-exist with the "peaceful" Israeli is such a vicious loop of reasoning.
Everyone in this situation sucks, however, the ones that have the most power to stop sucking keep on pushing the gas pedal in order to suck more and more and people are still finding ways to justify it, I am really wondering where is the limit.
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On May 26 2025 17:20 Jankisa wrote:
Well, we can also argue that major reason why Israel is being expansionist is because of their religious mandate to rule all of their Holy land.
Jordan is an example of a state that has very similar demographics as Palestine but because of geography hasn't been the target of endless strife with Israel, they seem to be doing fine, so why is all the blame for Gazans being radicalized leveled at them and Islam as a religion.
I'm a staunch atheist, I believe all religions are shitty and I firmly believe that Islam is the worse of them, you won't find me defending it if I can help it but the way people talk about these people like they are radicalized children with no will of their own is extremely disturbing to me and it plays in the overall dehumanization tactic of Israel.
It's the same way that people in the Ukraine thread are talking about Ukrainians, they are tools of the west, they have been manipulated and they should just roll over and accept that they are in Russia's sphere of influence...
These are real people that the whole world gave up on because of a cardinal sin of giving Hamas some votes a generation ago, most of the people in Gaza weren't alive or were way too young to vote during the last election there, these same people have been bombed and brutalized for 20 years by Israel now and now Israel is asking others to fix this problem for them, all the while they are bombing a few dozen of them out of existence at a time while claiming that they are just defending themselves.
That is what is extremely fucked up to me.
I'd agree that some settlers and religious Zionist movements believe in a biblical mandate. Also, parties like Otzma Yehudit and elements within Likud use religious justification for maintaining or annexing occupied territories.
But the majority of the settlements are there for strategic purposes or demographic engineering. The Jewish fanatics in Israel are arguably kept better in check than their Muslim counterparts.
Israel allows for free religious practice... Christians or Muslims. Muslims have full access to Al-Aqsa, yet the Muslims exclude other religions from entering the Temple Mount.
Hence, I don't think that religious fanatics in Israel will be a major issue in going forward.
And it wasn't my intention to sound like I am solely blaming religion for the radicalization. But, in my opinion, two big factors were not addressed in KwarK's plan:
1. Reeducation of the Gazan population to address internal absolutism
2. The external influence of players like Iran that have no interest in peace with Israel
These notions are vital in achieving long lasting trust. This is what I wanted to point out; not only blame religion or a vote from decades ago.
On May 26 2025 22:20 Jankisa wrote:
Yes, and more people are exposed to terror and poverty more they turn to religion, which is why blaming Gazans for being radical Islamists who need to be forcibly removed because there is no way they can co-exist with the "peaceful" Israeli is such a vicious loop of reasoning.
I want to clarify again that this is not something that I did do or believe. But religion is a factor that needs to be addressed in this discussion... and more so on the Muslim than the Israeli side.
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Northern Ireland24814 Posts
On May 26 2025 17:20 Jankisa wrote:
Well, we can also argue that major reason why Israel is being expansionist is because of their religious mandate to rule all of their Holy land.
Jordan is an example of a state that has very similar demographics as Palestine but because of geography hasn't been the target of endless strife with Israel, they seem to be doing fine, so why is all the blame for Gazans being radicalized leveled at them and Islam as a religion.
I'm a staunch atheist, I believe all religions are shitty and I firmly believe that Islam is the worse of them, you won't find me defending it if I can help it but the way people talk about these people like they are radicalized children with no will of their own is extremely disturbing to me and it plays in the overall dehumanization tactic of Israel.
It's the same way that people in the Ukraine thread are talking about Ukrainians, they are tools of the west, they have been manipulated and they should just roll over and accept that they are in Russia's sphere of influence...
These are real people that the whole world gave up on because of a cardinal sin of giving Hamas some votes a generation ago, most of the people in Gaza weren't alive or were way too young to vote during the last election there, these same people have been bombed and brutalized for 20 years by Israel now and now Israel is asking others to fix this problem for them, all the while they are bombing a few dozen of them out of existence at a time while claiming that they are just defending themselves.
That is what is extremely fucked up to me.
Thankfully not within these walls, but there is definitely a racialised, and specifically anti-Islam influence in some quarters on perception of the conflict.
Aside from what you say, which I wholly agree with, I think it’s often just deflection away from the destructive nature of nationalism, as I tend to hear it most from people who are heavily nationalistic.
Can’t be nationalism too, has to be religion. If it were nationalism I’d maybe have to confront my own beliefs.
Similarly, but differently with Ukraine. It can’t be that they too are patriots, they’re being manipulated by the West. Not like my real patriotism!
I also find there’s a widespread delusion as to how any of us would likely turn out if we were born into such a scenario. There’s plenty of hate around the world, and a hell of a lot of it is directed at people who haven’t done anything to the people who feel it.
As if Joe Bloggs who spends half his free time sharing Facebook articles about Muslims and migrants ‘ruining Europe’ somehow wouldn’t bear hatred to Israelis if he was born Palestinian. It’s preposterous.
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Much like some other people in the thread, Premo spent several months last year defending Israel as it was mauling down Gaza, in his case with just about any tactic available from denial of reality to straight up racism reminiscent of the Jewish question except for Palestinians. I believe this to be necessary context.
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On May 26 2025 22:31 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 17:20 Jankisa wrote:
Well, we can also argue that major reason why Israel is being expansionist is because of their religious mandate to rule all of their Holy land.
Jordan is an example of a state that has very similar demographics as Palestine but because of geography hasn't been the target of endless strife with Israel, they seem to be doing fine, so why is all the blame for Gazans being radicalized leveled at them and Islam as a religion.
I'm a staunch atheist, I believe all religions are shitty and I firmly believe that Islam is the worse of them, you won't find me defending it if I can help it but the way people talk about these people like they are radicalized children with no will of their own is extremely disturbing to me and it plays in the overall dehumanization tactic of Israel.
It's the same way that people in the Ukraine thread are talking about Ukrainians, they are tools of the west, they have been manipulated and they should just roll over and accept that they are in Russia's sphere of influence...
These are real people that the whole world gave up on because of a cardinal sin of giving Hamas some votes a generation ago, most of the people in Gaza weren't alive or were way too young to vote during the last election there, these same people have been bombed and brutalized for 20 years by Israel now and now Israel is asking others to fix this problem for them, all the while they are bombing a few dozen of them out of existence at a time while claiming that they are just defending themselves.
That is what is extremely fucked up to me. I'd agree that some settlers and religious Zionist movements believe in a biblical mandate. Also, parties like Otzma Yehudit and elements within Likud use religious justification for maintaining or annexing occupied territories. But the majority of the settlements are there for strategic purposes or demographic engineering. The Jewish fanatics in Israel are arguably kept better in check than their Muslim counterparts. Israel allows for free religious practice... Christians or Muslims. Muslims have full access to Al-Aqsa, yet the Muslims exclude other religions from entering the Temple Mount. Hence, I don't think that religious fanatics in Israel will be a major issue in going forward. And it wasn't my intention to sound like I am solely blaming religion for the radicalization. But, in my opinion, two big factors were not addressed in KwarK's plan: 1. Reeducation of the Gazan population to address internal absolutism 2. The external influence of players like Iran that have no interest in peace with Israel These notions are vital in achieving long lasting trust. This is what I wanted to point out; not only blame religion or a vote from decades ago. Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 22:20 Jankisa wrote:
Yes, and more people are exposed to terror and poverty more they turn to religion, which is why blaming Gazans for being radical Islamists who need to be forcibly removed because there is no way they can co-exist with the "peaceful" Israeli is such a vicious loop of reasoning.
I want to clarify again that this is not something that I did do or believe. But religion is a factor that needs to be addressed in this discussion... and more so on the Muslim than the Israeli side.
I don't think we are living in the same reality. You seems to put majority of the blame the hate of palestinian toward Israelis in religion. Then you are basically claiming that the blockade of everything including food, water, fuel, building material etc, the periodic killing of non-combatants, medics, children etc, have very little impact on whether the palestinian hate israel. They hate israel because some organization which is supposed to be brutal, corrupt and oppressive tell them to?
Does it ever going to pass the "common sense test"?
As for which side is worse, I would suggest you actually read things coming from the Israelis, including their ministers smoitrich and ben-Gvir, they will give anyone a run of their money for the horrible things they say (and get the israel government to do).
As for israelis allow free religious practise, would you mind explaining this?
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/3/11/palestinians-blocked-from-praying-at-al-aqsa-on-eve-of-ramadan
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/15/israel-blocks-thousands-of-palestinians-from-visiting-al-aqsa-mosque
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On May 26 2025 23:03 mounteast02 wrote:
As far as "religious ideology" is concern, I believe no one is better than the other. There are plenty of atrocities happened over the centuries in the name of religion, islam or otherwise.
I disagree. If you interpret Jainism and Buddhism (counting it as a religion) to an extreme, you'll become ever more non-violent.
Interpret Christianity, Hinduism and Islam to the extreme and you'll become more violent.
It could very well be, that in a different universe, where Islam would have been developed in the West and Christianity in the Middle East, the roles would be reversed. But as of now in 2025, Islam is correlated by far the most with terrorism, unequal gender treatment (Hindu castes get an honorable mention), forced marriages (with minors), honor killings, discrimination as well as religious violence against queer people and intolerance of other beliefs. I don't know any non Muslim countries that deny the existence of another state simply for religious reasons.
On May 26 2025 23:03 mounteast02 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 22:31 PremoBeats wrote:On May 26 2025 17:20 Jankisa wrote:
Well, we can also argue that major reason why Israel is being expansionist is because of their religious mandate to rule all of their Holy land.
Jordan is an example of a state that has very similar demographics as Palestine but because of geography hasn't been the target of endless strife with Israel, they seem to be doing fine, so why is all the blame for Gazans being radicalized leveled at them and Islam as a religion.
I'm a staunch atheist, I believe all religions are shitty and I firmly believe that Islam is the worse of them, you won't find me defending it if I can help it but the way people talk about these people like they are radicalized children with no will of their own is extremely disturbing to me and it plays in the overall dehumanization tactic of Israel.
It's the same way that people in the Ukraine thread are talking about Ukrainians, they are tools of the west, they have been manipulated and they should just roll over and accept that they are in Russia's sphere of influence...
These are real people that the whole world gave up on because of a cardinal sin of giving Hamas some votes a generation ago, most of the people in Gaza weren't alive or were way too young to vote during the last election there, these same people have been bombed and brutalized for 20 years by Israel now and now Israel is asking others to fix this problem for them, all the while they are bombing a few dozen of them out of existence at a time while claiming that they are just defending themselves.
That is what is extremely fucked up to me. I'd agree that some settlers and religious Zionist movements believe in a biblical mandate. Also, parties like Otzma Yehudit and elements within Likud use religious justification for maintaining or annexing occupied territories. But the majority of the settlements are there for strategic purposes or demographic engineering. The Jewish fanatics in Israel are arguably kept better in check than their Muslim counterparts. Israel allows for free religious practice... Christians or Muslims. Muslims have full access to Al-Aqsa, yet the Muslims exclude other religions from entering the Temple Mount. Hence, I don't think that religious fanatics in Israel will be a major issue in going forward. And it wasn't my intention to sound like I am solely blaming religion for the radicalization. But, in my opinion, two big factors were not addressed in KwarK's plan: 1. Reeducation of the Gazan population to address internal absolutism 2. The external influence of players like Iran that have no interest in peace with Israel These notions are vital in achieving long lasting trust. This is what I wanted to point out; not only blame religion or a vote from decades ago. On May 26 2025 22:20 Jankisa wrote:
Yes, and more people are exposed to terror and poverty more they turn to religion, which is why blaming Gazans for being radical Islamists who need to be forcibly removed because there is no way they can co-exist with the "peaceful" Israeli is such a vicious loop of reasoning.
I want to clarify again that this is not something that I did do or believe. But religion is a factor that needs to be addressed in this discussion... and more so on the Muslim than the Israeli side. I don't think we are living in the same reality. You seems to put majority of the blame the hate of palestinian toward Israelis in religion. Then you are basically claiming that the blockade of everything including food, water, fuel, building material etc, the periodic killing of non-combatants, medics, children etc, have very little impact on whether the palestinian hate israel. They hate israel because some organization which is supposed to be brutal, corrupt and oppressive tell them to? Does it ever going to pass the "common sense test"? As for which side is worse, I would suggest you actually read things coming from the Israelis, including their ministers smoitrich and ben-Gvir, they will give anyone a run of their money for the horrible things they say (and get the israel government to do). As for israelis allow free religious practise, would you mind explaining this? https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/3/11/palestinians-blocked-from-praying-at-al-aqsa-on-eve-of-ramadanhttps://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/15/israel-blocks-thousands-of-palestinians-from-visiting-al-aqsa-mosque
Why do you think I put the majority of the blame on religion? I simply added to KwarK's master plan the - in my opinion necessary - mentioning of religious fundamentalism.
I didn't even speak solely of Palestinians but also " Moderately wealthy nations who are nearing nuclear technology".
I was further making clear that overall the question of the Temple Mount, Al-Aqsa and East Jerusalem is left unanswered... and it is critical to the solution.
Plus, I clarified: "I want to clarify again that this is not something that I did do or believe. But religion is a factor that needs to be addressed in this discussion... and more so on the Muslim than the Israeli side."
I also am totally on board with war crime trials, as I as well made clear months ago in this very thread. Every crime that has occured in Gaza needs to be punished, no matter Palestinian or Israeli culprit.
Months ago, I also wrote extensively about the "blockade of everything including food, water, fuel, building material etc, the periodic killing of non-combatants, medics, children etc".
To keep it short: Yes, all of these factors (although they are without context in your quote), add rightfully to the rage and rejection and probably are the biggest factor.
In regards to your links:
While I fully acknowledge that restrictions that impact religious freedom have been imposed on West Bank Palestinians at sensitive and critical times (Ramadan in the past often was a strenous period, involving provocations by both sides), Israel's general policy on religious freedom is clear. Inside Israel proper, Muslims, including Arab Muslims, generally have the right to worship freely, attend mosques, celebrate Ramadan and access Islamic institutions. 400 mosques are present in Israel and Islam is recognized as an official religion. The restrictions in East Jerusalem or the West Bank are not reflective of the experience of all Muslims in Israel.
Your links are mirroring the political aspects of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, not the general idea of freedom of religion.
While the Temple Mount is the holiest site in Judaism, Jewish prayer or other religious rituals are prohibited. In contrast, Al-Aqsa is the third holiest site in Inslam, Muslims can do however they please nearly all year round. The handling of this site is enforced by Israel, which basically gives up prayer on its most holy site.
@Nebu: I'm over your obvious trolling, rage baiting and one sided, unreflected argumentations. KwarK's proposal seemed to be first discussion-worthy thing in a long time in this thread, hence I replied. But forgive me, if cynical, utterly loaded notions and unfounded insults or implications aren't appealing to me in terms of answering.
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