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Northern Ireland24814 Posts
On May 22 2025 08:15 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2025 02:36 WombaT wrote:On May 21 2025 02:04 GreenHorizons wrote:
Can someone help me understand how a voter in a western Democracy that voted for the people aiding and abetting the genocide of Palestinians considers their role any less condemnable than they do a Russian soldier's role in Ukraine? This is a silly gotcha attempt. I don’t actually get to vote for the UK’s main parties over here, Labour don’t run due to some historic alliance with the SDLP, the Tories do in a very limited sense. So in terms of swaying policy we have almost no impact whatsoever in terms of UK governments. Intent also matters in terms of complicity. Regardless of who I vote for, I’ve been involved in BDS for years. More than most here I’d wager. If Russian soldier A is super for the prospect of conquering Ukraine, and Russian soldier B is a conscript who doesn’t support what they’re being forced to do, well I’ll judge them differently. Aside from that, it’s a purely moral stance to take either way. Israel/Palestine has absolutely zero impact on us over here really. Some will care, some won’t. Some will care but also go ‘why is this so much worse than all the other conflicts over the globe?’ This seeming desire of yours to pigeonhole everyone who isn’t you into genocide complicity is myopic in the extreme. I’ve boycotted Israeli goods for about 20 years as both my grandfather and paternal aunty have been involved in pro-Palestine activism for decades, and that rubbed off on me. Ineffectual though I feel they are been to many a protest and meeting with Palestinian activists over here. I assume you’ve done this as well. You also consistently agitated against ‘Genocide Joe’ and yeah, probably a small role but actively enabled the election of a much worse regime for the Palestinians. Which you just refuse to own to this day and try to gaslight people about. Centrists have spearhearded themselves the destruction of the law of the state by criminalyzing anti genocide protest and then declaring it futile and "posturing" as you love doing it now.The israel/Palestine question has a massive impact on our society road to fascism and the lead was the democrat party. I don't get what you think anti genocide people should be obliged to vote for genocidal people. Why voting for a party with many candidates funded by aipac and which is leading the repression against you ? From your cosy place in ireland, would you vote for people who want to see you shut up at any cost ? With the climate of fear which is reigning in the french universities under macron's repression of palestinian protest, I don't get why I should vote for him, why I should vote for someone who wants me to shut up ? There is no answer to that. And who is funding and even arming a genocide Wombat ? Did you suddently forget biden's policies ? Oh well, let me remind you, the democrat Joe biden gave a total diplomatic, economic support to israel while selling it billions of weapons. And then he pretends to be different than the republicans ? Like you love to play the uncompromising left card but the democrats and overall the western centrists have fully compromised with a genocidal state. But keep seething about the left as if the people your side designated as political ennemy should give a vote for you. At least they are way more honest than you. I will give them that, there are extremely hypocritical but they don't reach your height, you're the champions, pretending that the victory of the democrat party would have helped in any shape of form the palestinian cause is truly a level of hypocrisy only the hardened centrists can achieve. And I am glad you're thinking the palestinian protesters play a role in your defeat, it means there is still an impact left. I actually don't think it did. Anyway, that's always the good thing with radicals, contrary to centrists, they're more straightforward. Just like it makes smotrich better at rising concern for the palestinian cause because he is way more honest than netanyahu, after all, it's been a year since he called for reducing the population of gaza to 200k. And your side give weapons to his side, and you think we have sth in common, oh boy, what a mixt of arrogance, delusion and hypocrisy.
I think it would be news to most here that I’m a centrist, but anyhow.
As per the bolded in turn.
Who’s doing that, currently in the United States?
No I don’t think that. I respect that position, but you have to own the consequences that come with it, same as everyone else.
My position, to reiterate it is that outside of the Israelis themselves, by far the most impactful elections or shifts in politics that are pertinent to Palestinian causes, are those in the United States.
If you lose that and hand the keys to a bunch of hardliners, even if the Dems are still unacceptable, that is a shit outcome.
Because even if you do build momentum with international solidarity, a US that is so-minded is a giant, giant roadblock. Which makes it that much harder, even if you do get a lot of traction.
An argument I made prior to, and subsequently to that election. It doesn’t just further strangle opposition in the US, it stifles its impact elsewhere, for a whole slew of reasons.
I’m interested in things that might conceivably work. I’m not super interested in political tactics that make resolving things I care about much, much more difficult.
I also don’t have a problem with one voting with their conscience, but honesty applies here. You’re absolutely allowed to in my book.
Will reply more fully at another juncture
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As I hope I've made clear, I don't really like any of this. I don't really care how people vote and I don't really care how moral people are. Nobody here is very important, what they do isn't going to change much. This goes for voting and it goes for not voting. Do something that works in accordance with your morals, and if that's not what I would do, well, you aren't me, are you. If you feel like you aren't doing enough, try and do more. If you feel like others aren't doing enough, well, find a way to deal with it, because "others" aren't going to change in numbers where that would be impactful.
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Northern Ireland24814 Posts
On May 22 2025 08:15 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2025 02:36 WombaT wrote:On May 21 2025 02:04 GreenHorizons wrote:
Can someone help me understand how a voter in a western Democracy that voted for the people aiding and abetting the genocide of Palestinians considers their role any less condemnable than they do a Russian soldier's role in Ukraine? This is a silly gotcha attempt. I don’t actually get to vote for the UK’s main parties over here, Labour don’t run due to some historic alliance with the SDLP, the Tories do in a very limited sense. So in terms of swaying policy we have almost no impact whatsoever in terms of UK governments. Intent also matters in terms of complicity. Regardless of who I vote for, I’ve been involved in BDS for years. More than most here I’d wager. If Russian soldier A is super for the prospect of conquering Ukraine, and Russian soldier B is a conscript who doesn’t support what they’re being forced to do, well I’ll judge them differently. Aside from that, it’s a purely moral stance to take either way. Israel/Palestine has absolutely zero impact on us over here really. Some will care, some won’t. Some will care but also go ‘why is this so much worse than all the other conflicts over the globe?’ This seeming desire of yours to pigeonhole everyone who isn’t you into genocide complicity is myopic in the extreme. I’ve boycotted Israeli goods for about 20 years as both my grandfather and paternal aunty have been involved in pro-Palestine activism for decades, and that rubbed off on me. Ineffectual though I feel they are been to many a protest and meeting with Palestinian activists over here. I assume you’ve done this as well. You also consistently agitated against ‘Genocide Joe’ and yeah, probably a small role but actively enabled the election of a much worse regime for the Palestinians. Which you just refuse to own to this day and try to gaslight people about. Centrists have spearhearded themselves the destruction of the law of the state by criminalyzing anti genocide protest and then declaring it futile and "posturing" as you love doing it now. The israel/Palestine question has a massive impact on our society road to fascism and the lead was the democrat party. I don't get what you think anti genocide people should be obliged to vote for genocidal people. Why voting for a party with many candidates funded by aipac and which is leading the repression against you ? From your cosy place in ireland, would you vote for people who want to see you shut up at any cost ? With the climate of fear which is reigning in the french universities under macron's repression of palestinian protest, I don't get why I should vote for him, why I should vote for someone who wants me to shut up ? There is no answer to that. And who is funding and even arming a genocide Wombat ? Did you suddently forget biden's policies ? Oh well, let me remind you, the democrat Joe biden gave a total diplomatic, economic support to israel while selling it billions of weapons. And then he pretends to be different than the republicans ? Like you love to play the uncompromising left card but the democrats and overall the western centrists have fully compromised with a genocidal state. But keep seething about the left as if the people your side designated as political ennemy should give a vote for you. At least they are way more honest than you. I will give them that, there are extremely hypocritical but they don't reach your height, you're the champions, pretending that the victory of the democrat party would have helped in any shape of form the palestinian cause is truly a level of hypocrisy only the hardened centrists can achieve. And I am glad you're thinking the palestinian protesters play a role in your defeat, it means there is still an impact left. I actually don't think it did.
Anyway, that's always the good thing with radicals, contrary to centrists, they're more straightforward. Just like it makes smotrich better at rising concern for the palestinian cause because he is way more honest than netanyahu, after all, it's been a year since he called for reducing the population of gaza to 200k.
And your side give weapons to his side, and you think we have sth in common, oh boy, what a mixt of arrogance, delusion and hypocrisy.
I think this is mostly completely incorrect, I don’t expect people to read everything I post on subjects but at least get the gist.
1. A Democratic Presidency may still be shit, and not acceptable to one’s sensibilities. It’s not as bad as the Republican platform though.
2. The US has much more influence here than anyone else outside of Israel itself
3. If you’re outside of Israel and the US, and want to do something, how hardcore the US is on the issue is a huge impediment to realistic action.
4. If that is the case, having #1 be a less shit option is actually rather important, IMO.
If #2 is the case, it saps enthusiasm from any nascent movement if it’s sufficiently immovable.
Pretending that the Trump administration and a Harris administration are exactly the same is absolutely either dishonest, or an ignorant position. They can, absolutely both be considered unacceptable, but the idea there’s no difference is bonkers.
It’s the difference between something that might bend to international pressure, versus something that absolutely won’t. And because the US is the kingmaker here, that’s absolutely going to have impacts everywhere else.
A Democratic regime may still be shit, I highly doubt it’s criminalising protests, deporting folks, presenting a peace plan to turn Gaza into some bit of international real estate etc
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It's pretty chilling to see people taking the murder of 2 embassy staffers in Washington as a way to score political brownie points.
It's even worse to see it being immediately used by Israel's foreign minister in order to attack European leaders for calling the latest incursion and signaling of a permanent occupation of Gaza for what it is.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-accuses-europe-antisemitic-incitement-after-washington-shooting-2025-05-22/
This kind of completely machiavelian approach to global politics, trying to call any criticism of Israel's actions as anti-Semitic (which happens in this thread as well) honestly makes me sick, 2 of your people are dead and you can't even wait for them to be buried before using them in order to deflect criticism, that is fucking insane.
Fuck that moron with a gun, by the way, people like that are up there with Hamas and Israeli's hardliners in their imbecilic belief that you can solve this shit with more violence, I have infinitely more respect for the guy who self-immolated and who a lot of people made fun of and have by now forgotten.
Rest in peace to the staffers, fuck Israel and fuck Hamas for making the world less safe space for both Jews and Muslims...
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Northern Ireland24814 Posts
On May 22 2025 23:18 Jankisa wrote:It's pretty chilling to see people taking the murder of 2 embassy staffers in Washington as a way to score political brownie points. It's even worse to see it being immediately used by Israel's foreign minister in order to attack European leaders for calling the latest incursion and signaling of a permanent occupation of Gaza for what it is. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-accuses-europe-antisemitic-incitement-after-washington-shooting-2025-05-22/This kind of completely machiavelian approach to global politics, trying to call any criticism of Israel's actions as anti-Semitic (which happens in this thread as well) honestly makes me sick, 2 of your people are dead and you can't even wait for them to be buried before using them in order to deflect criticism, that is fucking insane. Fuck that moron with a gun, by the way, people like that are up there with Hamas and Israeli's hardliners in their imbecilic belief that you can solve this shit with more violence, I have infinitely more respect for the guy who self-immolated and who a lot of people made fun of and have by now forgotten. Rest in peace to the staffers, fuck Israel and fuck Hamas for making the world less safe space for both Jews and Muslims...
Absolute bollocks.
If people are angry at x, it’s because x is happening not because somebody pointed it out.
Unfortunately two people who, probably had fuck all to do with x are dead, and RIP to them for being the victims of a senseless, pointless act.
Maybe there’s an Anti-Semitic motive, but if there is it’s not down to Europeans being critical of things that have actually happened.
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Things are moving now it seems. Even some of Finnish ministers have agreed that what is happening is a genocide or at least they do not know what else it should be called. However, it is still probably going to take weeks to get sanctions going finally. Politicians seem to be waiting for EU to make the collective decisions about this.
There should be more talk about future punishments and corrections in my opinion. Without even late action the door for further abuse stays open. Hard to see why one should not consider these actions as potential tools if there is no reaction or reparations for them. Especially, if you aim decades ahead in time for national prosperity, ethnic purity, expansion of influence, etc. Currently it seems quite easy to get away with crimes against humanity. Regarding the future punishment and reparations there is also need to include and hear Palestinians in the discussion, and understandably their demands will be harsh and some will have hard time to agree to them.
To me it seems very reasonable that Israel loses significant part of their land and is forced to ban Zionist organizations, that would aim to undermine any peace and deny the crimes against humanity committed. Of course, anyone that participated in war crimes should be taken to the international court.
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Germany is still not on board with the Dutch proposal to not automatically continue the association with Israel cause we are cowards. I don't get it. at this point what is the advantage to being the holdout? It's not like we are singling Israel out for violating law, I do not know any other countries associated with the EU that are creating a famine on their own population.
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Northern Ireland24814 Posts
On May 23 2025 01:08 Broetchenholer wrote:
Germany is still not on board with the Dutch proposal to not automatically continue the association with Israel cause we are cowards. I don't get it. at this point what is the advantage to being the holdout? It's not like we are singling Israel out for violating law, I do not know any other countries associated with the EU that are creating a famine on their own population.
Is there some residual collective guilt over the Holocaust? I can’t really think of some alternative reason here that German seemingly diverges.
Is that a part of the debate or am I off-base here? It seems Germany is more pro-Israel in certain ways than comparable EU states and I can’t really think of another reason why
If that’s not the case and native Germans can disavow me of that notion, fair enough!
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On May 23 2025 01:14 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2025 01:08 Broetchenholer wrote:
Germany is still not on board with the Dutch proposal to not automatically continue the association with Israel cause we are cowards. I don't get it. at this point what is the advantage to being the holdout? It's not like we are singling Israel out for violating law, I do not know any other countries associated with the EU that are creating a famine on their own population. Is there some residual collective guilt over the Holocaust? I can’t really think of some alternative reason here that German seemingly diverges. Is that a part of the debate or am I off-base here? It seems Germany is more pro-Israel in certain ways than comparable EU states and I can’t really think of another reason why If that’s not the case and native Germans can disavow me of that notion, fair enough!
Yes, that is certainly a factor here.
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Sure, it has always been government policy that Jewish life has to be protected, as they say. But it has nothing to do with that anymore.
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"We'll stop killing Palestinians once they are all gone" could have been an Onion headline a few years ago.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-implementation-of-trumps-gaza-relocation-plan-is-condition-for-ending-war/
During his first press conference in five months, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Wednesday named the implementation of US President Donald Trump’s “revolutionary” plan to relocate Gaza’s civilians as a condition for ending the conflict, the first time he has made such a demand. He called Trump’s plan “brilliant,” and said it had the potential to change the face of the Middle East.
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Northern Ireland24814 Posts
On May 23 2025 07:30 Ciaus237 wrote:"We'll stop killing Palestinians once they are all gone" could have been an Onion headline a few years ago. https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-implementation-of-trumps-gaza-relocation-plan-is-condition-for-ending-war/Show nested quote +
During his first press conference in five months, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Wednesday named the implementation of US President Donald Trump’s “revolutionary” plan to relocate Gaza’s civilians as a condition for ending the conflict, the first time he has made such a demand. He called Trump’s plan “brilliant,” and said it had the potential to change the face of the Middle East.
Of course it’s important to note that the Democratic Party’s platform would be exactly the same here /s
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So, masks are off, the motivations and goals that people vehemently defended for almost 2 years now:
- sending a message that this can never happen again to Hamas
- destroying Hamas military capabilities and their capabilities to launch rockets into Israel
- destroying Hamas leadership
- freeing the hostages
Now Netanyahu has dropped all the pretense and is stating that he doesn't care about remaining hostages, this is a land grab and (at the very least) ethnic cleansing.
How is this contributing to Israel's security? What does this have to do with Hamas? Does Israel's right to defend itself mean they should be allowed to take any land they want?
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Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has launched a blistering attack on Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer and the leaders of France and Canada - saying that they had "effectively said they want Hamas to remain in power".
He also accused Starmer, Emmanuel Macron and Mark Carney of siding with "mass murderers, rapists, baby killers and kidnappers".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c7804k13x52o
Everything he accuses Hamas of, he is personally guilty of overseeing.
Absolutely pathetic individual, honestly.
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On May 23 2025 01:08 Broetchenholer wrote:
Germany is still not on board with the Dutch proposal to not automatically continue the association with Israel cause we are cowards. I don't get it. at this point what is the advantage to being the holdout? It's not like we are singling Israel out for violating law, I do not know any other countries associated with the EU that are creating a famine on their own population.
Germany should be adult enought now to not automaticly side with who ever governs Israel just because of the Holocaust.
In all fairness, Holocaust should tell tham that systematic killing and displacement is to be prevented - who ever commits it.
In a sense of "Only Nixon could go to China"... Only a Lifelong Pro-American,Pro-Israel conservative F. Merz could oppose Netanyahu on his war plans.
Yet - the AfD is looming, and they would glaaaadly just step in and be the "Nazis for Israel". Right-leaning Germans only fear muslims today.. and if "Antisemitism" can be weaponized...they will go for it.
As of 50 Pages ago, the situation hasn't changed. Netanyahu is still winning, and not stopping, praising Trump's plan of just telling the Gazanians to "go live elsewhere" and occupy their land.
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United States42428 Posts
If Hamas doesn’t govern Gaza then who will? Israel is somewhat arguing in bad faith but they’re not wrong that a proposal that they don’t assume rule of Gaza means leaving Hamas in power (assuming no one else wants the job). It’s just at this point that would be the lesser evil. There are removal of Hamas scenarios I could get behind but what we're seeing isn't one of them.
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Netyanahu has been working, very hard to keep Hamas ruling in Gaza because he feels like he can pit them against PA who he finds more threatening:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state
There were many plans and proposals for bringing PA into Gaza instead of Hamas, unfortunately, that goes against what Israeli hardliners want, they would never agree to that because Gaza and West bank united under one Palestinian organization and their rule would be a chance for 2 state solution to come out of it, and they don't want a real Palestinian state to exist.
There was even a EU backed proposal to have PA take administration of Gaza over that was rejected: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/3/8/muslim-nations-european-leaders-back-arab-proposal-for-gaza
It's rich to say that Israel doesn't have a choice but to occupy Gaza when they have been working, for years, a the detriment of their overall security as a state that escalated with October 7th on propping up Hamas so they can be a counter weight to PA.
PA is not perfect, they are corrupt as fuck and did their share of horrible shit, they are, however, much preferred to Hamas, they can be reasoned with, but, unfortunately reason is not what Israel wants, they have demonstrated, especially over the last year that they are in an expansionist mode, see Lybia, Syria and Gaza.
The greatest evil is what is going on now, famine, bombs dropping, land incursion, again, after a year and a half of onslaught they are going hard again, they killed more people then Hamas ever had combatants, and now they are saying that they won't stop, that's fucked up.
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United States42428 Posts
Yes, Netyanahu is openly a bad actor here. Though the PA are extremely unpopular with Gazans as well as within the West Bank. They stay in power by refusing to hold elections.
The question of who could govern Gaza is impossible because Hamas successfully govern it by being extortionist gangsters whose love of violence enable them to coerce every other group into letting them run a monopoly on the distribution of foreign aid. They steal from the population and torture anyone who disagrees. One of the benefits of Hamas, from a western point of view, is that it isn't our fault, this is something Iran/Qatar are doing to the Palestinians. Replacing Hamas with an equally brutal gang of our choosing will lead to some uncomfortable realities.
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Northern Ireland24814 Posts
On May 23 2025 22:08 KwarK wrote:
If Hamas doesn’t govern Gaza then who will? Israel is somewhat arguing in bad faith but they’re not wrong that a proposal that they don’t assume rule of Gaza means leaving Hamas in power (assuming no one else wants the job). It’s just at this point that would be the lesser evil.
Somewhat?
The general thrust of the calls Netanyahu responded to with ‘why do you support Hamas?’ were about letting humanitarian aid in, and not escalating a military offensive in ways that enhance civilian suffering. And increasingly unhinged rhetoric from members of the Israeli government.
Of course, you still have that thorny Hamas question, and what the future looks like. Although it’s not like the current campaign is really succeeding in toppling Hamas fully either. If the Brits/French/Canadians had come out and said ‘you have to leave Hamas in place, they are the legitimate government of Gaza’ or something then yeah 100% you can reasonably claim they’re being supporters or useful idiots for Hamas.
I dare say attitudes would have been different to a potential full occupation if Israel’s conduct had been better since October 7th.
Wider solutions are complex though, not denying aid to civilians, killing fewer of them, somewhat less so.
I’m sure precedents exist I’m struggling to think of any off the top of my head, but say here’s some tangible aid, Hamas gotta fuck off, and Gaza will be a temporary international protectorate, security will be handled by international peacekeepers. Let things stabilise, ideally you return to some kind of Palestinian autonomy over time.
Far from a perfect plan by any means, but it’s not completely unfeasible considering some of the alternatives put forward in recent months.
Obvious sticking points include a desire on either side of this conflict here to give ground, or a framework of willing and acceptable participants to enable it. More conducive to peace than flattening the place and relocating everyone though.
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On May 23 2025 22:08 KwarK wrote:
If Hamas doesn’t govern Gaza then who will?
There is a good chance that Gaza won't need any government anymore.
Hamas has been hiding in their tunnels for over a year anyway.
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EPT
