EPTIt’s not that Christianity is violent, it’s that Christians absolutely hate Jesus’s message.
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 410
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KwarK
United States43355 Posts
It’s not that Christianity is violent, it’s that Christians absolutely hate Jesus’s message. | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany1094 Posts
I don't really think that the teachings of each religion in itself is a problem in Israel. It's just Team J vs Team M. At some point Team M killed some Team J people living on their turf, and some of Team M fanatics to this day believe it's in their general mission statement to kill all Team J. Future for Gaza and Westbank: Israel will annex more of both, displacing Palestinians and whoever gets the refugees will probably be only years away from civil unrest, if not war. If you want to solve this as UN, you just block buying OIL from the region unless the oil-sheiks take in all of gaza and westbank. They import slaves from asia - why not ask palestinians instead to build soccer stadiums in the desert? | ||
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Jankisa
Croatia1002 Posts
1. The neighboring countries have way, way less obligation to bare the burden of Palestinian refugees who's homes were destroyed or stolen by Israel then Israel does, saying they do and should (and in the latest wonderful comment) that they should use them as slaves is fucking insane, what exactly have these people done to deserve to be talked about in this way? 2. Just because these people share a mutual religion (and in most cases they aren't even the same sects) it doesn't mean that they are all "the same" and thus should automatically take them, this shitshow got started by Western powers dividing the region in the way that they knew will cause conflict and then Israel got dropped in the middle of it, and your solution is to move on and say "fuck them, them Arabs should take care of it otherwise we punish them further" The level of discussion here reminds me of people casually throwing around eugenics. We can all agree that Saudis, Iranians, Quatari etc. are bad actors, they are also sovereign states that owe 0 things to Israel, they shouldn't be expected to take care of the people they forcibly displace, it's not on them to fix the issue that Israel only approaches with violence. Yes, in an ideal world they would use their immense wealth to help the Palestinians, in an ideal world France, US and UK would have honored the Budapest memorandum and defended Ukraine, in an ideal world Israel would have stuck with Oslo accords instead of slowly creeping and taking more and more land from Palestinians, that's not the world we live in and I think we can all agree that the 2+ million of Gazans who, again, haven't voted in 2 decades and are victims of both Hamas and Israel shouldn't be the ones that get fucking enslaved by Quatar and SA so Israel can get everything they ever wanted... For fucks sake. | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany1094 Posts
Of course they rather have the Terrorist leaders in Exile as guests. | ||
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Jankisa
Croatia1002 Posts
I'll be the first to admit that I fail at that with internal and sometimes external caricaturisation of people I find detestable due to what and who they support and what kind of arguments they have, but I really, really try to always remember that we are all humans with biases and we are all shaped by our environments and people around us, both online and offline and so are all the people and countries we discuss shit about. I've seen too many people, from public intellectuals I admired to good friends that I just can't deal with anymore because of their flattening of these things to a point where they talk about whole populations like they are cattle, it's extremely sad and depressing and it doesn't bode well for the future of the world that this is what's happening and no one seems to give a fuck. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10825 Posts
I have a severe lack of empathy for palestinians as an entity that somehow didn't manage to arrange themselves with Israel for a century. Which doesn't absolve Israel of blame, but the palestinians made it easy for settler scum and the likes to act like they do. | ||
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KwarK
United States43355 Posts
On May 27 2025 23:38 Velr wrote: I have plenty of empathy for individual palestinians. I have a severe lack of empathy for palestinians as an entity that somehow didn't manage to arrange themselves with Israel for a century. Which doesn't absolve Israel of blame, but the palestinians made it easy for settler scum and the likes to act like they do. People 50 years ago who decided to create intergenerational refugee camps and breed Palestinians in them in the hope that the more refugees they created the better things would get are more to blame than the average Palestinian today. The current crisis was manufactured in a way that was so transparently stupid that it seems malicious. This could have, and should have, been settled after the 6 Day War when it became clear that Israel wasn't going to be destroyed and that some permanent settlement needed to be made for displaced Palestinians. Now we have ten Palestinians for every one we had back then, even if they got their great grandfather's land back they'd have to share it with their nine second cousins. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26224 Posts
On May 27 2025 23:27 Jankisa wrote: I understand that this is kind of a "realpolitik" discussion forum, but given the world wide trend of rising nationalism and basically every other "ism" I think we would all be in a better place if we tried to remind ourselves that we are talking about human beings, on all sides of every conflict. I'll be the first to admit that I fail at that with internal and sometimes external caricaturisation of people I find detestable due to what and who they support and what kind of arguments they have, but I really, really try to always remember that we are all humans with biases and we are all shaped by our environments and people around us, both online and offline and so are all the people and countries we discuss shit about. I've seen too many people, from public intellectuals I admired to good friends that I just can't deal with anymore because of their flattening of these things to a point where they talk about whole populations like they are cattle, it's extremely sad and depressing and it doesn't bode well for the future of the world that this is what's happening and no one seems to give a fuck. Feel you there. Personally I try to wear both hats as it were. An advocacy for the world as I’d like to see it in accordance with certain values of mine, and that realpolitik hat hey it ain’t always like that. Certainly imperfectly! It’s not really a problem I have on this forum, elsewhere a big issue I find is that those ‘realists’ and ‘pragmatists’ are really anything but. ‘Israelis and Palestinians can’t peacefully co-exist because Islam bad’ for example is not a remotely realist position, it’s just myopic bias masquerading as such. Say, Kwark’s analysis may be rather bleak in its articulation, but it’s not lacking in its factoring in of relevant multifaceted components, nor claiming it’s anything but a FUBARED set of affairs. One’s mileage may of course vary but I’m 100% fine with that. Stuff I see elsewhere, far less so and just outright depressing | ||
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PremoBeats
538 Posts
On May 28 2025 01:31 WombaT wrote: Feel you there. Personally I try to wear both hats as it were. An advocacy for the world as I’d like to see it in accordance with certain values of mine, and that realpolitik hat hey it ain’t always like that. Certainly imperfectly! It’s not really a problem I have on this forum, elsewhere a big issue I find is that those ‘realists’ and ‘pragmatists’ are really anything but. ‘Israelis and Palestinians can’t peacefully co-exist because Islam bad’ for example is not a remotely realist position, it’s just myopic bias masquerading as such. Say, Kwark’s analysis may be rather bleak in its articulation, but it’s not lacking in its factoring in of relevant multifaceted components, nor claiming it’s anything but a FUBARED set of affairs. One’s mileage may of course vary but I’m 100% fine with that. Stuff I see elsewhere, far less so and just outright depressing Is anyone here actually expressing the opinion that Israelis and Palestinians can't coexist because of Islam? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26224 Posts
On May 28 2025 02:44 PremoBeats wrote: Is anyone here actually expressing the opinion that Israelis and Palestinians can't coexist because of Islam? To quote myself ‘It’s not really a problem I have on this forum elsewhere…’ | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15725 Posts
On May 28 2025 02:44 PremoBeats wrote: Is anyone here actually expressing the opinion that Israelis and Palestinians can't coexist because of Islam? I think isolating the specific mechanism is kinda not even all that useful when the conclusion is so air-tight. Israel and Palestine will never be able to coexist as neighbors. People got lost in stupid discussions about who violated what agreement/ceasefire or which side was the reason a 2-state solution fell apart yadda yadda. Even if we completely ignore October 7 and only look at Israel's response to October 7, no population on earth could endure the violence against Palestinians suffered by Israel without being permanently hateful. We have so much history we can point to, where the losing side of a conflict was treated 10x better than Palestinians, and they still end up permanently hateful. The ship sailed. Even with the difference in military/influence/diplomacy, if the world all agreed Palestinians were shitbags, they would not stop fighting against Israel until they are all either dead or relocated. And this thought experiment is focusing on the wayyyyyy wayyyy wayyyyyyyy weaker faction among the 2. Israel has nukes and is geopolitically incredibly valuable to whichever world power has them under their umbrella. Their airforce is easily argued among top5 in the world. So Israel completely surrendering to Palestinians is unreasonable to an extreme. So if we know neither will ever surrender to the other, its just over. Both the intensity of the conflict and the insane timescale of the conflict make it totally and completely diplomatically impossible. I think its very dishonest and harmful when world leaders don't touch on this point. All of the talk about de-escalating and whatnot is really harmful in the long-term because there is truly no viable path to peace. The populations themselves are fundamentally unable to ever be peaceful towards each other. And just in case anyone isn't convinced their both beyond reason: All it takes is for ONE of them to be beyond reason. So long as either Palestinians or Israelis are unwilling to move past the conflict, the other will always end up jumping right back in. And they can even take turns and it will still continue forever. All conversations should be purely focused on "Who should be relocated? Israel or Palestine?". And while I fully realize who should have to relocate has many valid and reasonable perspectives from a moral perspective, every argument in favor of Israel leaving the area is ivory tower in the extreme and completely detached from any considerations of practicality or likelihood. | ||
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pmp10
3374 Posts
UK is still pretending it will put pressure on Israel. When EU started that PR campaign, new cease-fire deal was thought to be close. But by now we know that one negotiator badly overstepped the bounds and no agreement is likely anytime soon. Chances are that this will end with a humiliating climb down. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14058 Posts
The very next thing you need to consider is where do you think you are going to relocate the palestinians to where it would be easier or better in any way than just doing what you are going to do there but where they are now? Is there some part of the world ready made and available that will give them a better life? with neighbors that won't abuse them? | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15725 Posts
On May 28 2025 05:07 Sermokala wrote: I don't think its Ivory tower to say that in 2025 we probably shouldn't be rewarding those who want ethnic cleansing with letting them ethnic cleanse away their problems. The ivory tower component is the idea that reward/punish is a valid or realistic idea for the situation. Attaching moral guidelines to a situation that has been shown to obey zero moral guidelines is just detached and wrong. As for where to go, no idea. But I think if you showed someone in 2005 the situation for Palestinians in 2025, they would have absolutely zero optimism. The common trope in this discussion is "yeah but what if peace magically happens later? Better to at least allow for the potential for a miracle to happen". But look at all those maps showing "Palestinian land vs time". Its like a way more egregious version of "here's how Bernie can still win". Another thing that makes it ivory tower is the implication the situation is currently stable and/or acceptable. How many Palestinian children have been killed since Oct7 2023? Would someone in 2020 have anticipated that number of deaths in the next 5 years? Maybe I can more effectively frame my perspective with this question: How many more instances of 2023-2025 violence would need to take place before you give up on coexistence? Imagine a similar Israeli campaign happens in 2034, then again in 2049. It is always easy to assume things will improve, but I'm having a hard time finding a single example for Palestinians. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12377 Posts
On May 28 2025 03:13 Mohdoo wrote: I think isolating the specific mechanism is kinda not even all that useful when the conclusion is so air-tight. Israel and Palestine will never be able to coexist as neighbors. People got lost in stupid discussions about who violated what agreement/ceasefire or which side was the reason a 2-state solution fell apart yadda yadda. Even if we completely ignore October 7 and only look at Israel's response to October 7, no population on earth could endure the violence against Palestinians suffered by Israel without being permanently hateful. We have so much history we can point to, where the losing side of a conflict was treated 10x better than Palestinians, and they still end up permanently hateful. The ship sailed. I believe the opposite, when people aren't currently being killed things deescalate very easily because most people actually just want to live their lives and will do so if that's a valid option. Germany and Japan did a lot of terrible things in WW2 and now we're all fine with them, Poland or China included. Those examples are limited in time though, so maybe that doesn't apply well as an example, maybe what the US did is more similar. And there we hear about reparations from time to time, but it's still nowhere near the level of where it would be if there was active conflict going on. South Africa probably the best example? Assuming we all agree white genocide is bs, it seems to be going fine today. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15725 Posts
On May 28 2025 05:29 Nebuchad wrote: I believe the opposite, when people aren't currently being killed things deescalate very easily because most people actually just want to live their lives and will do so if that's a valid option. Germany and Japan did a lot of terrible things in WW2 and now we're all fine with them, Poland or China included. Those examples are limited in time though, so maybe that doesn't apply well as an example, maybe what the US did is more similar. And there we hear about reparations from time to time, but it's still nowhere near the level of where it would be if there was active conflict going on. South Africa probably the best example? Assuming we all agree white genocide is bs, it seems to be going fine today. Both Germany and Japan had pretty extreme occupations in all but name after WW2. They were better described as American colonies than sovereign nations for a very long time. In the case of both Poland and China, they "won" the conflict from the world politics/military perspective. Peace was forced by a dominant power in both instances. There is no reasonable mechanism for forcing Israel to be peaceful. It may be reasonable to point to North Korea and Iran and how much freedom they have retained despite extreme pressure and dicey diplomatic ties. Can you imagine Israel being subdued more than Iran or North Korea have been? And the idea of subduing Israel is itself a bit of a fantasy because the diplomatic situation of Israel, despite appearances, is 9999999x better than that of Palestinians right now. If Palestinians had more than 0 diplomatic power, the last 6 months would not have happened. Palestinians are not being treated as humans by world powers. The whole world collectively watches and does nothing. I think all of the fake tough talk against Israel only harms Palestinians more because it gives people false hope and locks Palestinians into more and more years of suffering. At the end of the day, despite all the posturing, Palestinian land continues to shrink every year. I think the current situation provides conclusive proof there is no diplomatic mechanism for the conflict to resolve because the current levels of suffering would not be possible if even a fraction of that currently existed. | ||
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Sadist
United States7299 Posts
On May 28 2025 05:44 Mohdoo wrote: Both Germany and Japan had pretty extreme occupations in all but name after WW2. They were better described as American colonies than sovereign nations for a very long time. In the case of both Poland and China, they "won" the conflict from the world politics/military perspective. Peace was forced by a dominant power in both instances. There is no reasonable mechanism for forcing Israel to be peaceful. It may be reasonable to point to North Korea and Iran and how much freedom they have retained despite extreme pressure and dicey diplomatic ties. Can you imagine Israel being subdued more than Iran or North Korea have been? And the idea of subduing Israel is itself a bit of a fantasy because the diplomatic situation of Israel, despite appearances, is 9999999x better than that of Palestinians right now. If Palestinians had more than 0 diplomatic power, the last 6 months would not have happened. Palestinians are not being treated as humans by world powers. The whole world collectively watches and does nothing. I think all of the fake tough talk against Israel only harms Palestinians more because it gives people false hope and locks Palestinians into more and more years of suffering. At the end of the day, despite all the posturing, Palestinian land continues to shrink every year. I think the current situation provides conclusive proof there is no diplomatic mechanism for the conflict to resolve because the current levels of suffering would not be possible if even a fraction of that currently existed. I read it as if he were talking about Palestinians being occupied as opposed to subduing israel. Was that not the case? Im assuming he meant occupy gaza, build shit up and stop terrorist attacks etc, kill hamas and then eventually things will settle down. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12377 Posts
On May 28 2025 05:44 Mohdoo wrote: Both Germany and Japan had pretty extreme occupations in all but name after WW2. They were better described as American colonies than sovereign nations for a very long time. In the case of both Poland and China, they "won" the conflict from the world politics/military perspective. Peace was forced by a dominant power in both instances. There is no reasonable mechanism for forcing Israel to be peaceful. It may be reasonable to point to North Korea and Iran and how much freedom they have retained despite extreme pressure and dicey diplomatic ties. Can you imagine Israel being subdued more than Iran or North Korea have been? And the idea of subduing Israel is itself a bit of a fantasy because the diplomatic situation of Israel, despite appearances, is 9999999x better than that of Palestinians right now. If Palestinians had more than 0 diplomatic power, the last 6 months would not have happened. Palestinians are not being treated as humans by world powers. The whole world collectively watches and does nothing. I think all of the fake tough talk against Israel only harms Palestinians more because it gives people false hope and locks Palestinians into more and more years of suffering. At the end of the day, despite all the posturing, Palestinian land continues to shrink every year. I think the current situation provides conclusive proof there is no diplomatic mechanism for the conflict to resolve because the current levels of suffering would not be possible if even a fraction of that currently existed. "There is no way we get to a situation where Palestinians aren't oppressed" isn't the same argument as "Palestinians will still permanently hate Israel if they aren't oppressed". | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15725 Posts
On May 28 2025 05:54 Nebuchad wrote: "There is no way we get to a situation where Palestinians aren't oppressed" isn't the same argument as "Palestinians will still permanently hate Israel if they aren't oppressed". I suppose I am approaching it from 2 "levels". 1: First of all, Palestinians will always be oppressed because they have no genuine advocates. Not a single country currently posturing has lifted a finger to make an impact and accept costs/risks to prevent ethnic cleansing and extreme violence. 2: Second, even if they somehow had genuine advocates preventing oppression, Israel is too powerful to ever be subdued to the extent necessary to completely eliminate violence on both sides. At best, the temperature of the conflict could be reduced, but there is no mechanism for it to be eliminated. They are a nuclear power, and as we see throughout the world, even a country in a significantly worse position than Israel guarantees themselves a great deal of agency. Israel being a nuclear power is a big part of why Israel is the only possible "winner" in the conflict. Not to be able to nuke Palestinians, but because of the extreme agency and freedom nuclear weapons guarantee. So even if you somehow make it past "step 1", "step 2" is checkmate, as evidenced by North Korea and Pakistan. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26224 Posts
On May 28 2025 03:56 pmp10 wrote: Temporary move from the land of false dichotomy to real politics: UK is still pretending it will put pressure on Israel. When EU started that PR campaign, new cease-fire deal was thought to be close. But by now we know that one negotiator badly overstepped the bounds and no agreement is likely anytime soon. Chances are that this will end with a humiliating climb down. But UK Foreign Secretary David Lammy called the escalation "morally unjustifiable". The UK last week suspended trade deal talks, summoned Israel's ambassador and imposed fresh sanctions on West Bank settlers. From the same article. Not enough for my sensibilities, there are tangible things actually happening. I’m not sure there will be a climb down, although whether that leads to any kind of sufficient pressure or satisfactory resolution, also doubt. In the wider scale from the US at one end to Iran at the other, the contemporary UK, France and whatnot are pretty in the middle in terms of support for Israel. All Israel had to do to keep them onside was not keep escalating, not have prominent members of government say reprehensible things etc, and they get to keep taking advantage of that slack. I also suspect, to some degree that Europe may start pivoting away from trying to leverage things like ceasefires, and towards a domain of ‘well we can’t stop em, but we can punish them’. I may be entirely, utterly wrong here, given it does require some balls. But I can see which way the wind could potentially blow. I’m unsure how opinion is swinging in your various locales, or indeed what resonance it has. There is a decided swing from ‘ok it’s a bit shit, on the other hand, October 7th did just happen’ to ‘wait, are you still doing this?’ to ‘wait, are you still doing this, with a growing anger at each juncture. What’s that look like if say, the ‘Trump Peace Plan’ is actually enacted? Israel isn’t China. Sure, some have various interests there, but it’s not a nation of such integration to the economy that you can’t untether without huge knock-on impacts. Again, likely? Who knows. Possible? I do wonder and need to do further investigation on how the EU itself affects things. For example, maybe it’s a handful of countries going it alone. What freedom do they have to sanction Israel, while not contravening EU rules and regulations? How would something like a travel ban even function versus freedom of movement etc. Anyway I’m rambling now | ||
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