EPTThings Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 412
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Billyboy
1461 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12391 Posts
On May 28 2025 17:44 Jankisa wrote: I would argue that this just goes to show that if someone can't imagine that Israel could be doing better they are basically endorsing what they are doing, with the "everything is unrealistic" as an excuse. They have all the power. It's unrealistic because Israel doesn't want to do it, if they wanted to, there would be a lot of realistic solutions. This is correct of course. When situations are bad, you are still allowed to diagnose them correctly and come up with the right takes, we do that all the time. Putin is realistically not going to back up from Ukraine with no compensation, and we still get to assert that it is the right outcome (apart from him being hung upside down but you know). I would further add that many of the people you're talking to had much different takes last year, for example Velr mocked on several occasions the people who talked about genocide or ethnic cleansing because not enough people were being killed for that to be warranted. So this is a retreat for a previous position of open support, as opposed to a neutral observation that everything is bad. | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany1115 Posts
- The unrealistic idea of an indepentend, armed, sovereign palestinian state, achieved in more insurection and more unbalanced warfare. - The mask dropping of israeli racists that don't want to have a "one state" solution, if suddenly non jews are equal citizens (with a vote in elections) Dropping the Gazanians from being an enemy population, to being a problematic - but domestic - group would wildly improve their standing. Israel would need to overcome Netanyahu and all he stands for to do this. | ||
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Billyboy
1461 Posts
The Gaza side I'm not sure what is realistic, it is strange to think about but before oct 7th the people in gaza had a quality of life score better than Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, and I believe Iran. Maybe if the courts hold the Israeli leadership to account but also the Gazan ones, and in that I mean the actual ones in Iran, Qatar and so on. But I don't see that as "realistic". | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany1115 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10852 Posts
- The mask dropping of israeli racists that don't want to have a "one state" solution, if suddenly non jews are equal citizens (with a vote in elections) Is there even a single Israeli that supports a one state solution? @Nebu: Yes, because it was and is still not enough people to count as Genocide. But I'm growing much more sympathetic to the idea calling it one, especially if they seriously cut all aid/food and let everyone starve to dead, because that would easily count as such and the death toll would reflect that... But that would still not make it a Genocide last year. Words have meanings. But according to you, all people in Gaza should allready have starved to death 6++ months ago, somehow that didn't happen (likely thanks to Biden/Harris that told Netanyahu to let aid in or forget his weapons... But they are the same as Trump, member?). | ||
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Jankisa
Croatia1163 Posts
On May 28 2025 22:29 Billyboy wrote: @Jankisa Why not you? What is your realistic solution, Kwark doesn't think there is one and you are not going to coninve him that he has to come up with one when he thinks it is impossible. So shoot your shot. My initial "request for comment" laid out 2 scenarios that I would be happy with, unfortunately one relies on people of Israel to do something that even after all the corruption of Nethyanahu was laid bare and even after all these people were killed isn't happening, and the other relies on the international community to actually do something, which even I know would require something much more blatant then the slow roll of killing a few dozens of Palestinians at the time while pretending they are all Hamas. Previously I also posted this one: On May 24 2025 21:10 Jankisa wrote: To me, if I had a magic wand I'd go back to Oslo accords and force both sides to stick to them. This would provide Palestinians enough land and resources to unburden Gaza a bit, it would allow them to move back to settlements that they were driven out of and if Israel didn't fuck with them I'm sure that they'd be able to feed their populations. I'd let Palestinians have free and open elections after all this and present them with an option of a guy who I've been grooming and who's been helping devise these plans this whole time, still a Muslim but someone who preaches the good parts of Islam, a technocrat who'd be able to tell them "we got the war thing fixed let me fix the rest". Then I'd send thousands of therapists and doctors to both Israel and Palestine (now a full fledged state, Gaza as the capital and with all of the west bank territories that belong to them according to Oslo as their territory) and have them do PTSP therapy, perhaps with MDMA, Shrooms and LSD in order to help them get over these generational traumas. Hopefully that would allow them to get over their shit and to understand that Jerusalem is to be shared (as per Oslo accords), all the people in Israel who actively propped up Hamas would be publicly trialed and thrown to prison, same goes for every remaining Hamas member, both political and military wings. Unfortunately that has been made impossible by Israel's continuous creep over West bank, if by some miracle that was reversed (as Obama and others tried to force) and the land was distributed and this was enforced by international body created just for that I would be very happy. I know none of this is super realistic, but it's hell of a lot better then continuously talking about Palestinians as "breeders" and "slaves" and many other things that have been said in the past few pages. In the interim I would be ecstatic if Arab countries as well as US & EU put real, actual pressure on Israel to stop the hostilities, re-start negotiations and get the hostages back in an exchange for a permanent ceasefire. That would be a good first step, unfortunately neither posters in this thread or Israel think that this is realistic anymore, it was a year ago, and nothing really changed from the side of Gaza / Hamas, but now it's just too much to ask... It would also allow for elections to take place in Israel and Nethyanahu to be removed, perhaps it's time, after almost 20 year of this piece of absolute shit being the face of Israel for someone else, who wouldn't be allowing financing of Hamas and wouldn't have dropped the ball on security so much that there's the worse massacre of Jews since WW2 to have a say and propose an solution. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23657 Posts
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KwarK
United States43598 Posts
My criticism is for the international community who have looked at the issue of a displaced population and concluded that it would be easier to do nothing and let it grow to 10x the size. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23657 Posts
On May 28 2025 23:42 KwarK wrote: To be clear, I don't blame the people of Gaza for being born into what amounts to a victim breeding program. I don't think I called them breeders and I don't think they're doing anything differently to what others would do in a multigenerational refugee prison camp. My criticism is for the international community who have looked at the issue of a displaced population and concluded that it would be easier to do nothing and let it grow to 10x the size. I don't know if the international community can recover from criticism like this: On May 28 2025 07:56 KwarK wrote: + Show Spoiler + To +1 this. Not only is there no foundation, nothing to go back to, there’s no even the materials needed to build a foundation. Too many people that, for generations, have only known the refugee prison. It’s not a problem of money and the comparison with rebuilding Europe after WW2 is apt for the wrong reasons. On a per capita basis Gazans received vastly more money than the Marshall aid plan, even after adjusting for inflation. Far more was spent trying to rebuild Palestine than Western Europe, the problem wasn’t lack of resources. We’ve essentially had a two state solution for decades and Palestine has been given a colossal amount of money to build a viable state. They have failed to do so. Whether it’s because they didn’t want to or because Hamas/PLO stole all the money or whatever is beside the point. Unless whatever factor prevented it from working last time is addressed there’s absolutely no reason to think it’ll work next time. Gaza got autonomy. Gaza got elections. Gaza got absurd amounts of foreign aid for nation building. Look at what they did with it. | ||
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KwarK
United States43598 Posts
On May 28 2025 23:45 GreenHorizons wrote: I don't know if the international community can recover from criticism like this: Exactly, throwing money at the problem without changing anything else was dumb as fuck and the international community was dumb to think it would. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23657 Posts
On May 29 2025 00:10 KwarK wrote: Exactly, throwing money at the problem without changing anything else was dumb as fuck and the international community was dumb to thing it would. The dumb thing the international community (Europe/the US) did was create Israel in Palestine because they NIMBY'd Jewish people. They've refused to clean up the mess they created at the expense of Palestinians ever since. People see your rhetoric for what it is though. | ||
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KwarK
United States43598 Posts
On May 29 2025 00:22 GreenHorizons wrote: The dumb thing the international community (Europe/the US) did was create Israel in Palestine because they NIMBY'd Jewish people. They've refused to clean up the mess they created at the expense of Palestinians ever since. People see your rhetoric for what it is though. I mean they didn't create Israel and the British put strict immigration controls on Zionists moving to Palestine and then fought the Zionist terror groups and lost but sure, setting all of that to one side, I agree that the western powers should have done more to impose the UN partition plan. | ||
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Billyboy
1461 Posts
On May 28 2025 23:18 Jankisa wrote: My initial "request for comment" laid out 2 scenarios that I would be happy with, unfortunately one relies on people of Israel to do something that even after all the corruption of Nethyanahu was laid bare and even after all these people were killed isn't happening, and the other relies on the international community to actually do something, which even I know would require something much more blatant then the slow roll of killing a few dozens of Palestinians at the time while pretending they are all Hamas. Previously I also posted this one: Unfortunately that has been made impossible by Israel's continuous creep over West bank, if by some miracle that was reversed (as Obama and others tried to force) and the land was distributed and this was enforced by international body created just for that I would be very happy. I know none of this is super realistic, but it's hell of a lot better then continuously talking about Palestinians as "breeders" and "slaves" and many other things that have been said in the past few pages. In the interim I would be ecstatic if Arab countries as well as US & EU put real, actual pressure on Israel to stop the hostilities, re-start negotiations and get the hostages back in an exchange for a permanent ceasefire. That would be a good first step, unfortunately neither posters in this thread or Israel think that this is realistic anymore, it was a year ago, and nothing really changed from the side of Gaza / Hamas, but now it's just too much to ask... It would also allow for elections to take place in Israel and Nethyanahu to be removed, perhaps it's time, after almost 20 year of this piece of absolute shit being the face of Israel for someone else, who wouldn't be allowing financing of Hamas and wouldn't have dropped the ball on security so much that there's the worse massacre of Jews since WW2 to have a say and propose an solution. My apologies for missing them. I think Netanyahu being removed is realistic, he is not all that popular, just his opponents have not been able to agree about enough to form a coalition, there should be enough reasons to do so now. There is also his corruption trials that would make him ineligible. I also think that if Hamas was to let the civilian hostages go, even in another massively unbalanced trade that would do a lot. If everything was to line up and they could do it to a new government maybe that would be something to build on. Sadly anytime you go down this path you end needing to be so optimistic that it starts to be so unrealistic again. Maybe the most possible is expecting it to get better in 50 years rather than all at once as awful as that sounds. It took a long time to get this bad, might take a long time to get it better. Having a leader on both sides that want to move forward peacefully would be a huge start. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12391 Posts
On May 28 2025 23:16 Velr wrote: @Nebu: Yes, because it was and is still not enough people to count as Genocide. But I'm growing much more sympathetic to the idea calling it one, especially if they seriously cut all aid/food and let everyone starve to dead, because that would easily count as such and the death toll would reflect that... But that would still not make it a Genocide last year. Words have meanings. Literal academic experts on genocide and the Holocaust were calling it a genocide last year, an international court of justice wanted it stopped because it was plausible that it was a genocide, but it was so obviously not that that you got to laugh at the idea because words have meaning, damn man you should have went and told them instead of talking to me. | ||
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Billyboy
1461 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15737 Posts
On May 28 2025 10:53 Sermokala wrote: The Real Ivory position is to simply state "yeah lets just relocate them that'll solve the problem" and then convince yourself that's the smart position to have. Applying "Reward or Punish" to what you do isn't being up your own ass its realizing that people see situations and learn from them. If you tell the world that if you abuse a population enough to where they have no good options the world will reward you for taking the population of people you don't like off your hands. You're teaching people that the problem with genocide isn't that its inherently evil, its that you're doing it too fast, do it slowly and you're okay. The Ivory position is to see that "gee just removing the population will solve the problem, to end the suffering now in one super duper bad thing is good because long term you're preventing greater suffering". You're not offering a solution no matter how brave you think you are by offering Patrick square-level logic of "just push it somewhere else". If we take you seriously for the first moment, where do you relocate the Palestinians to? How do you propose relocating them? What do you think will happen when they get to this promised land for them? I've had plenty of great conversations with you, so I'd like to try to convince you I'm not just spewing overly-theoretical nonsense. Time does not wait for moral solutions. Just like how if we were to spend too long pondering a real life trolley problem, eventually the trolley would just run over a bunch of people. So while I do agree it is good to hold firm against any immoral or overly tragic approaches to Israel vs Palestine, I think we all agree Palestinians and Israelis will always loop back to deadly conflict if left to their own devices. Whoever someone chooses to blame for that conflict, we ought to all agree lives continue to be ended prematurely while diplomats discuss what ought to be done. Next, the world is continuing to devolve into chaos and conflict all around the world. World powers have always had their eyes on Israel and Gaza, but resources are sometimes limited. Part of the reason Assad lost his grip on Syria is the fact that Russia was stretched thin in Ukraine. Imagine a situation where Europe continues to become more focused on Ukraine, the US mostly steps aside, and other conflicts begin to build. There could be a time where way less international spy agency eyes are on Israel/Gaza and it could lead to Hamas acquiring weapons they've been kept from so far. Plenty of people within Hamas would love to get their hands on some kind of bio weapons, a dirty bomb, or other major weapons. When we let the conflict go on forever, we are creating more opportunities for something to go catastrophically wrong. A rare opportunity for Hamas coinciding with an intelligence failure could result in someone within Hamas deciding they have nothing to lose and managing to sneak a terrible weapon into Israel. If Hamas managed some terrible attack that killed 50,000 people, Israel would definitely kill every Palestinian within 48 hours. I recognize this scenario would require a few separate things to go wrong, but its worth keeping in mind plenty of people within Hamas would love to make something like that happen. I imagine even Iran tries to make sure they never pull off something like that. And even if this vague scenario never isn't very likely, lesser versions are more possible. October 7 did happen and a deeply tragic number of Palestinians have died and suffered because of it. I think people aren't recognizing times in history when the worst really did happen. The US did indeed bomb Japan. 9/11 did indeed lead to a horrific number of people all across the middle east dying. These things happened despite theoretically more peaceful solutions existing. We as humans have a really big incentive for conflicts to end because it eliminates the possibility of horrific events. If Japanese leadership realized the nukes would just keep dropping until they surrendered, I guarantee they would have. Our world in its current form may indicate we have the luxury of pushing this out and waiting for a better outcome. But history has shown us the world can change rapidly and situations we never thought were possible can happen. And so just for the sake of making my point entirely clear: Yes, it absolutely is possible for Israel to decide to kill every single Palestinian in the most inhumane bombing/siege campaign ever seen. Its also possible for a lesser version of that to exceed any human harm of relocation. I think it is both ignorant and lacking in compassion to not recognize the possibility of Israel killing all Palestinians. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On May 29 2025 00:56 Billyboy wrote: My apologies for missing them. I think Netanyahu being removed is realistic, he is not all that popular, just his opponents have not been able to agree about enough to form a coalition, there should be enough reasons to do so now. There is also his corruption trials that would make him ineligible. I also think that if Hamas was to let the civilian hostages go, even in another massively unbalanced trade that would do a lot. If everything was to line up and they could do it to a new government maybe that would be something to build on. Sadly anytime you go down this path you end needing to be so optimistic that it starts to be so unrealistic again. Maybe the most possible is expecting it to get better in 50 years rather than all at once as awful as that sounds. It took a long time to get this bad, might take a long time to get it better. Having a leader on both sides that want to move forward peacefully would be a huge start. It could also get worse. A lot of growing dissatisfaction around Netanyahu is, in some quarters rather detached from Palestinians altogether. It’s why haven’t we won the war, got hostages back, etc. On the other side of the ledger, yeah you do have peace movements. Or you have those not innately opposed to a military response, but who think it’s gone way too far. I guess much remains to be seen. The core question is for me really if the Israeli people can seize a potential chance to course correct, or not. Something I think will be made even more difficult by how close hardliners are to the finishing line as it were. You’ve got a US that is basically giving you carte blanche, the rest of the world haven’t got their shit together to counteract that. If you get into power next cycle, you can potentially take advantage of those factors and effectively ‘win’. To the degree that it’s never being reverted. That’s got to be a really galvanising prospect. There’s some precedent in this very conflict itself. Some governments have been proactive in blocking, or slowing settlement expansion. But once those settlements are up, they’re generally there to stay. If I’m Joe Zionist, under these conditions, if we win whatever next election comes up, conceivably we can push things so much that they become de facto irreversible down the line, even if there’s a will from elsewhere in the future to do so. Hell of a prospect. As per usual I’m pessimistic, and I don’t like being wrong. I do however, like my pessimism to be unexpectedly proven wrong. But I really think liberal, anti-war etc Israelis have to win this next round. Then it’s into a long slog. To use a crude boxing analogy, a reasonable peace may be doable, but you’re going to have to go 12 rounds and win on points. This can be done, even if it’s bloody hard. But you can have the best gameplan, inhuman stamina and be set for that fight, but if you get knocked out round 1 you’re done. | ||
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Billyboy
1461 Posts
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Jankisa
Croatia1163 Posts
On May 29 2025 13:40 Billyboy wrote: There needs to be a Zionist equivalent for Muslims. There is, it's called ISIS and the whole world agreed that what they were doing in ME was so fucked up that a war was prosecuted against them. Unlike Iraq or Afghanistan the international community had no issues with it, those insane religious fanatics who raped and pillaged their way through Syria and Iraq trying to make their Caliphate were universally condemned. Well, sometime around the start of this war many American politicians and generals tried to tell Israel to heed the lessons of US wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, Israel's response is that they would rather go with WW2 as an analogy and take their lessons from there: https://saudigazette.com.sa/article/637054/World/Mena/US-military-advisers-invoke-lessons-of-Iraq-in-urging-Israelis-to-avoid-all-out-ground-assault-in-Gaza | ||
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