|
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
Let's flip it like this.
A person from Poland or Estonia has stronger feelings about Russians then a person from Spain or Portugal.
The same way, a person from Syria or Lebanon has stronger feelings about Israel as a state and Zionism as a project then I would. A person from Egypt or Jordan might have similar feelings, for them, their feelings aren't based so much on recent conflicts between Israel and their states but they do have news and eyes and they do share religion and some ancestry with the Palestinians.
None of this is black and white, I do concede that there is a lot of anti-Jew beliefs, conspiracies and even religious sectarian doctrine in the ME, however, I reject that means that I can't have anti-Zionist views if I see Zionism as more and more a genocidal movement hell bent on expansionism.
I really dislike the continuous framing of "all these Muslim states are working on bringing down Israel just like they did after it's funding".
When was the last time a Muslim state did an incursion in to Israel? Before Gaza and exchange of missiles and drones between Iran , Yemen and Israel there were Abraham accords, Egypt has warned Israel about Oct 7th, Syria has been liberated from Assad and Israel bombed the shit out of them despite them proclaiming they have no ill intent towards Israel.
But even if there were tanks on every border from every side of Israel, that doesn't justify a war which even the staunchest defender of Israel here now admits that has no stated goal and no end in sight, and I absolutely get that whoever is watching on is becoming more and more anti-Israel.
I know that I started as a neutral, sort of "fuck them both, Israel for West bank and sniping children and journalists, Palestinians for intifadas and rockets" but quickly, around October 9th when I watched people cheering on carpet bombing of an extremely densely populated area from the roofs of their houses, after reading up on previous "land mowing" incursions, after reading proclamations of intent to do war crimes (total siege of Gaza) I am absolutely in the "fuck Israel" camp.
This is too much, it was too much a year ago and it's getting worse.
|
On May 30 2025 17:09 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2025 17:01 Magic Powers wrote:Alright, since I apparently overestimated the present knowledge of some people regarding the history and nature of fascism, here's a list of examples of fascism. https://helpfulprofessor.com/examples-of-fascism/Nazism is a flavor of fascism, it's not the only form of fascism. There are dozens, probably hundreds of ways fascism can be done. Even Mussolini's fascism wasn't set in stone. Due to Hitler's influence he eventually followed similar ideals of a nation's blood, which was previously not part of his ideology. Blood is absolutely not essential in the fascist ideology. The reason why Zionism isn't listed should be fairly obvious. People's heads explode when they realize that a country of victims can, at the same time, also be a country of perpetrators. But Zionism fits the bill perfectly. It is fascism in all but name, just as Nazism is also fascism in all but name. If you truly understand Zionism, then you understand fascism. History lesson over. Peace, out. The ignorance you portrayed months ago is now explained by these utterly ridiculous two last posts. The link you posted leans heavily on the Nazi example and post WW-II understanding of fascism. But there is no single, universally agreed-upon definition of the term though. Two schools of thought exist: Typologies (like your link) or scholarly/ideological historical definitions. Nazism and fascism are distinct ideologies although they overlap in methods and outcomes. We can go on and on about the origins and differences of both ideologies which are completely distinct, but I don't have the time right now. Equating Zionism two any of the two is moronic without comparison and intellectually appalling. I am able to identify the ad hominems in my reply by myself, but at times, things need to be called out for what they are.
I'd say Settler ideology specifically is a form of fascism.
When I look at some of Netenyahu's top guys in government, I see fascism.
But then David, the Jewish guy from down the street, believe that the Jews should have a homeland and yet hates fascism in all its forms and is against the war in Gaza continuing. He's still a zionist.
|
On May 30 2025 17:23 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2025 17:09 PremoBeats wrote:On May 30 2025 17:01 Magic Powers wrote:Alright, since I apparently overestimated the present knowledge of some people regarding the history and nature of fascism, here's a list of examples of fascism. https://helpfulprofessor.com/examples-of-fascism/Nazism is a flavor of fascism, it's not the only form of fascism. There are dozens, probably hundreds of ways fascism can be done. Even Mussolini's fascism wasn't set in stone. Due to Hitler's influence he eventually followed similar ideals of a nation's blood, which was previously not part of his ideology. Blood is absolutely not essential in the fascist ideology. The reason why Zionism isn't listed should be fairly obvious. People's heads explode when they realize that a country of victims can, at the same time, also be a country of perpetrators. But Zionism fits the bill perfectly. It is fascism in all but name, just as Nazism is also fascism in all but name. If you truly understand Zionism, then you understand fascism. History lesson over. Peace, out. The ignorance you portrayed months ago is now explained by these utterly ridiculous two last posts. The link you posted leans heavily on the Nazi example and post WW-II understanding of fascism. But there is no single, universally agreed-upon definition of the term though. Two schools of thought exist: Typologies (like your link) or scholarly/ideological historical definitions. Nazism and fascism are distinct ideologies although they overlap in methods and outcomes. We can go on and on about the origins and differences of both ideologies which are completely distinct, but I don't have the time right now. Equating Zionism two any of the two is moronic without comparison and intellectually appalling. I am able to identify the ad hominems in my reply by myself, but at times, things need to be called out for what they are. I'd say Settler ideology specifically is a form of fascism. When I look at some of Netenyahu's top guys in government, I see fascism. But then David, the Jewish guy from down the street, believe that the Jews should have a homeland and yet hates fascism in all its forms and is against the war in Gaza continuing. He's still a zionist.
I don't think settler ideology is inherently a form of fascism, but in certain historical contexts, can adopt fascist-like features or resemble fascism, especially when combined with authoritarianism or ultranationalism.
It’s tied to settler colonialism, which is not a political ideology per se, but a structure of domination and land acquisition.
Some interpretations of Zionist settlement ideology, especially the hardline forms, have been critiqued as settler-colonial - but calling them “fascist” often depends on the presence of broader authoritarian or nationalist features, which not all versions exhibit imo.
Settler colonialism is much older than fascism (think U.S., Australia, South Africa), and liberal democracies have pursued it. So while fascism and settler colonialism can intersect, especially under racist or totalitarian regimes, they are not the same (like fascism and Nazism or Zionosm for what it matters).
EDIT: Didn't see your post before, Jankisa:
"I really dislike the continuous framing of "all these Muslim states are working on bringing down Israel just like they did after it's funding"."
No, not exactly, but I don't think anyone said it like that. I was referring to Iran, where the money and missiles that are fired from within Lebanon and Syria come from.
"But even if there were tanks on every border from every side of Israel, that doesn't justify a war which even the staunchest defender of Israel here now admits that has no stated goal and no end in sight, and I absolutely get that whoever is watching on is becoming more and more anti-Israel."
I wouldn't call myself a staunch defender as I call for war crime tribunals against the Israeli leaders and commanders. But the stated goals are clear since October 7th.
1. Kill Sinwar
2. Free the hostages
3. End Hamas
The first goal was achieved, the 2nd is close too. The third is the biggest factor and I agree that in regards to this goal, no end is in sight and proportionality spirals more and more out of control. This is also where the question of alternatives comes into play. Should Israel stop after achieving goal 1 and 2? Then rinse and repeat for all eternity? Or what is the road ahead when Hamas stays in charge? Is a Hiroshima-like solution necessary? Sacrifice a couple of thousand more now to have a chance of lasting "peace" and save hundreds of thousands?
|
United States42777 Posts
On May 30 2025 17:01 Magic Powers wrote:Alright, since I apparently overestimated the present knowledge of some people regarding the history and nature of fascism, here's a list of examples of fascism. https://helpfulprofessor.com/examples-of-fascism/Nazism is a flavor of fascism, it's not the only form of fascism. There are dozens, probably hundreds of ways fascism can be done. Even Mussolini's fascism wasn't set in stone. Due to Hitler's influence he eventually followed similar ideals of a nation's blood, which was previously not part of his ideology. Blood is absolutely not essential in the fascist ideology. The reason why Zionism isn't listed should be fairly obvious. People's heads explode when they realize that a country of victims can, at the same time, also be a country of perpetrators. But Zionism fits the bill perfectly. It is fascism in all but name, just as Nazism is also fascism in all but name. If you truly understand Zionism, then you understand fascism. History lesson over. Peace, out.
This is called a syllogism and it’s a failure of logical reasoning. It’s the “all squares are rectangles so all rectangles are squares” issue.
If we accept that Nazism is fascist and Zionism is fascist that still doesn’t mean Nazism is Zionism. The problem isn’t that you know more than us, it’s that you know so much less than us that you can’t engage.
|
Ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is supported by a large majority of Jewish Israelis, with literally genociding Palestinians holding a plurality of support according to recent polling.
According to the results, 82 percent of respondents supported the expulsion of Gaza's residents, while 56 percent favored expelling Palestinian citizens of Israel.
Nearly half (47 percent)of respondents agreed that "when conquering an enemy city, the Israel Defense Forces should act as the Israelites did in Jericho under Joshua's command – killing all its inhabitants." Sixty-five percent said they believed in the existence of a modern-day incarnation of Amalek, the Israelite biblical enemy whom God commanded to wipe out in Deuteronomy 25:19. Among those believers, 93 percent said the commandment to erase Amalek's memory remains relevant today.
This apocalyptic rhetoric has found fertile ground in religious Zionist circles, where leaders have long advocated for such extreme policies.
www.haaretz.com
|
If you exclude the Arab Israelis, it's almost 60% who support outright genocide.
Edit: My bad, the respondents were Jewish. Arabs were excluded.
|
So was the poll conducted only among believers? A large portion of Israel is secular or biblically illiterate... These astonishingly high respondent numbers of accepting or even being familiar with such (genocidal) biblical mandates seem kind of off.
As former polls showed completely contrary results and the article is behind a pay wall: is the full methodology transparent?
These numbers would be extremely concerning, if they are representative.
|
Its of course totally awful for that many people to support complete and total killing of Palestinians. And it is also a big reason I think people are insane for wanting Palestinians to keep fighting when no one is going to act as a counterbalance against the Israelis supporting wiping out Palestinians.
Europe ain't gonna do shit. US ain't gonna do shit. Arab nations ain't gonna do shit.
I feel like this is the general thought process I generally see people describe:
1: Non-Arab Israelis are extremely hateful and overwhelmingly support killing all Palestinians
2: Israel and the IDF are protected by the US and western military interests in the middle east, so they can operate with impunity
3: We see proof the IDF operates with impunity from all the examples of extreme hate crimes, intentional targeting of children, cruel withholding of food, water, electricity, and medical supplies
4: The IDF has been using October 7 as a justification for killing Palestinians
5: Even without October 7, Israel was already killing Palestinians for sport as a form of hate rather than self defense
6: Even hospitals, schools, and critical infrastructure are directly targeted purely for the sake of harming Palestinians and the world does nothing to actually fight back or prevent it.
7: And so, Palestinians are better off staying in Gaza rather than trying to flee or being evacuated by other nations. They should remain and continue to endure points 1-6.
|
|
|
I'd like to be straightforward and say that I could very well be giving credit where credit is NOT due, but is making Gaza the resort of the ME, not the solution that is needed.
Palestinian's future perhaps isn't brightest in Gaza as Gaza it is today.
Some money/investment and return expectation is needed to divert from the destruction, as there is a bit of vested interest with the "rebuild". Heck this might even lead to some American troops on the ground and I'm not sure they would get the same warning shot treatment like some other diplomats.
|
United States42777 Posts
On May 31 2025 05:27 Byo wrote:
I'd like to be straightforward and say that I could very well be giving credit where credit is NOT due, but is making Gaza the resort of the ME, not the solution that is needed.
Palestinian's future perhaps isn't brightest in Gaza as Gaza it is today.
Some money/investment and return expectation is needed to divert from the destruction, as there is a bit of vested interest with the "rebuild". Heck this might even lead to some American troops on the ground and I'm not sure they would get the same warning shot treatment like some other diplomats.
Would you go on holiday to one of the most densely populated places on earth where the daily weather report includes Israeli bombs falling from the sky and the chief export is terrorism?
The resort plan was inexplicable and weird. If you were to give points on a scale from 0-10 for how suited a place is for conversion into a luxury resort, for example existing transport infrastructure being worth 5 points, then a stretch of open ocean would be a 0 and Gaza would be about -5.
|
What article? Link is dead for me.
|
On May 31 2025 07:15 Mohdoo wrote:What article? Link is dead for me.
The Haaretz article GH linked a few posts up. Link works for me.
|
On May 31 2025 05:27 Byo wrote:
I'd like to be straightforward and say that I could very well be giving credit where credit is NOT due, but is making Gaza the resort of the ME, not the solution that is needed.
Palestinian's future perhaps isn't brightest in Gaza as Gaza it is today.
Some money/investment and return expectation is needed to divert from the destruction, as there is a bit of vested interest with the "rebuild". Heck this might even lead to some American troops on the ground and I'm not sure they would get the same warning shot treatment like some other diplomats. Are you aware step 1 of the resort plan is the ethnic cleaning of Palestinians in gaza?
Trump doesn't want to build a 5 star resort in the biggest refugee camp in the world. He wants to forcibly relocate all the people living there and then build a resort.
That is the part people take issue with.
|
United States42777 Posts
On May 31 2025 14:43 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2025 05:27 Byo wrote:
I'd like to be straightforward and say that I could very well be giving credit where credit is NOT due, but is making Gaza the resort of the ME, not the solution that is needed.
Palestinian's future perhaps isn't brightest in Gaza as Gaza it is today.
Some money/investment and return expectation is needed to divert from the destruction, as there is a bit of vested interest with the "rebuild". Heck this might even lead to some American troops on the ground and I'm not sure they would get the same warning shot treatment like some other diplomats. Are you aware step 1 of the resort plan is the ethnic cleaning of Palestinians in gaza? Trump doesn't want to build a 5 star resort in the biggest refugee camp in the world. He wants to forcibly relocate all the people living there and then build a resort. That is the part people take issue with.
The resort plan and the sending them all to Libya plan were different plans. The resort one was Jared Kushner’s solution in Trump season 1 when Jared was given responsibility for everything. One of his 6 jobs was Middle East peace and he proposed building a golf resort in Gaza.
There are many issues with the resort plan but relocation wasn’t one of them.
|
On May 31 2025 15:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2025 14:43 Gorsameth wrote:On May 31 2025 05:27 Byo wrote:
I'd like to be straightforward and say that I could very well be giving credit where credit is NOT due, but is making Gaza the resort of the ME, not the solution that is needed.
Palestinian's future perhaps isn't brightest in Gaza as Gaza it is today.
Some money/investment and return expectation is needed to divert from the destruction, as there is a bit of vested interest with the "rebuild". Heck this might even lead to some American troops on the ground and I'm not sure they would get the same warning shot treatment like some other diplomats. Are you aware step 1 of the resort plan is the ethnic cleaning of Palestinians in gaza? Trump doesn't want to build a 5 star resort in the biggest refugee camp in the world. He wants to forcibly relocate all the people living there and then build a resort. That is the part people take issue with. The resort plan and the sending them all to Libya plan were different plans. The resort one was Jared Kushner’s solution in Trump season 1 when Jared was given responsibility for everything. One of his 6 jobs was Middle East peace and he proposed building a golf resort in Gaza. There are many issues with the resort plan but relocation wasn’t one of them. There was another new plan, which I assume was implied by Byo
On 4 February 2025, U.S. president Donald Trump declared his intent for the United States to take ownership of the Gaza Strip. The proposal was made during a ceasefire in the war between Israel and Hamas-led Palestinian militants. Trump expressed his vision to re-develop the territory into the "Riviera of the Middle East".[1] The plan would call for the forced displacement of approximately 2 million Palestinians to neighboring lands.[2] It would also require the removal of over 50 million tonnes of debris and unexploded ordnance.[1] When asked how the territory will be acquired, Trump claimed the U.S. will "take it".[3] The proposal has received negative reception from several nations and organizations, contrasting with strong support from Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu.[4]
|
On May 31 2025 03:45 maybenexttime wrote:
If you exclude the Arab Israelis, it's almost 60% who support outright genocide.
Edit: My bad, the respondents were Jewish. Arabs were excluded.
It is super shitty, but sadly not unique for the area. If you want to be depressed look up countries around Israel and there opinions on Israel or on the Oct 7th masssacre and kidnappings. The generations of hatred plus now adding social media amplification, it getting worse not better.
|
Boring, middle of the road groups like Canadian DRs without borders and the world central kitchen are complaining hard core about the IDF. Israel is losing the political middle fast.
|
On May 30 2025 17:36 PremoBeats wrote:
1. Kill Sinwar
2. Free the hostages
3. End Hamas
The first goal was achieved, the 2nd is close too. The third is the biggest factor and I agree that in regards to this goal, no end is in sight and proportionality spirals more and more out of control. This is also where the question of alternatives comes into play. Should Israel stop after achieving goal 1 and 2? Then rinse and repeat for all eternity? Or what is the road ahead when Hamas stays in charge? Is a Hiroshima-like solution necessary? Sacrifice a couple of thousand more now to have a chance of lasting "peace" and save hundreds of thousands?
How is "free hostages" goal close? I mean Hamas has been pretty consistent in killing them before Israel can free them. IIRC only one successful rescue was done and it got 8 hostages free, what are the chances that there will be another one where Hamas doesn't kill the hostages before IDF gets to them?
Hamas is not just a bunch of guys, how is this still a thing? Even if IDF kills every single member there will be more coming after them, that's how radicalization works, those guys become martyrs and more people flock to the cause.
Israel has stated, matter of factly that they don't really want any furhter negotiations for hostages and that the war will go on even after they are all free, that doesn't really seem to jive with "free the hostages" goal.
Hundreds of military experts, historians, politicians etc. have noted that the "End Hamas" goal is not possible, it seems evident to everyone except people like you who tow the IDF line closely that the war is ongoing because Nethyanahu doesn't want to face the music.
|
United States42777 Posts
Hamas does have some organizational structure. It's not like being a member of antifa or whatever where all you have to do is be opposed to fascism and congratulations, you're now antifa. They're closer to a mafia than a government but Gaza was legitimately administered by their mafia. They held a monopoly on violence, had a command structure, took a cut of all economic activity etc. They are a group that can be destroyed and replaced.
And the goal of removing Hamas is entirely justifiable, Israel is correct that after October 7 the status quo was simply intolerable. You cannot coexist peacefully with a state that is actively at war with you and is committing war crimes against your population. They were forced into a hot war with Hamas by October 7 and the war must be won. For years Hamas asserted that they wanted to kill all the Jews but their attacks remained small enough for Israel to tank and stick to proportional responses. That changed and there is no going back.
That's not to say Israel is going about it the right way, if the IDF destroys Hamas then bails then the replacement is going to be a exactly the same and probably share the same name. It's like fighting a cartel, they're a real organization but if all of the economic incentives that created a violent cartel remain unchanged then destroying them is simply creating a vacuum that will be immediately filled.
The replaced part would need Israel to remove the perceived need for Hamas and give the Gazans a credible alternative. They're showing no interest in doing that so far. So even if they win the war they will not win the peace.
And given that they have no interest in winning the peace and this will all be for absolutely nothing the cost in Gazan lives is unacceptably high. You could make a greater good argument for freeing Gazans from Hamas and ending the forever war, but only if the war actually ends.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
