Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 407

On May 21 2025 02:04 GreenHorizons wrote:
Can someone help me understand how a voter in a western Democracy that voted for the people aiding and abetting the genocide of Palestinians considers their role any less condemnable than they do a Russian soldier's role in Ukraine?

On May 21 2025 02:04 GreenHorizons wrote:
Can someone help me understand how a voter in a western Democracy that voted for the people aiding and abetting the genocide of Palestinians considers their role any less condemnable than they do a Russian soldier's role in Ukraine?

On May 21 2025 03:14 KwarK wrote:
How is the soldier in an invading army different from a voter in a democracy in a different country not a participant? I am very smart.

On May 21 2025 04:06 KwarK wrote:
Why do the people not simply vote for the party that was going to bring peace to the middle east through their policy of bringing peace to the middle east?

On May 21 2025 02:11 GreenHorizons wrote:

They don't have to be to be comparably condemnable. But how do you mean?

Update for your edit: Plenty of Russian soldiers in Ukraine aren't shooting anyone. (EDIT: Plenty didn't really "decide to join" in the colloquial sense either).

This reasoning would make the Westerners that voted for the people aiding and abetting genocide more condemnable than a reluctant Putin voter then though right?

On April 11 2025 02:15 Legan wrote:
Reading up on the company that sold Zyklon B to Auschwitz this week was interesting. None of the indicted got longer than 8 years sentences, and many apparently did not know what went on in the camp even tho they had a factory inside the camps and had visited the camps personally. Quite a few were acquitted, and a few were released because of good behaviour and ended up in high industry positions. I don't think much has changed in how we would treat people related to similar violations. It is just so easy to claim that you did not know what was being done by the people you supported. I'm sure the world's richest standing next to each other at the inauguration will share amnesia about the event in the future. All will just be accidental, even if the results are catastrophic.

On May 21 2025 05:27 GreenHorizons wrote:


I understand that the people who pull the triggers, the people that order them to, the people that sell them the guns, the people that vote for the people doing those things are different (though sometimes overlapping) people.

My inquiry is more in line with Legans post about Zyklon B

On May 21 2025 05:49 WombaT wrote:

Great, I assume you’re doing a lot of work in Palestinian activist spaces to differentiate yourself from us complicit folks.

If you’re not, well you’re just the person who believes that application Zyklon B is bad but who does nothing about it.

You might be right, but it’s functionally useless

On May 21 2025 06:14 GreenHorizons wrote:


I mean, I do try. I've come a long way from when I saw pro-Palestinian activists outside of Bernie's rally in Seattle in 2015 that I was volunteering for and thought "that's not helping us win the primary".

But I still struggle to feel like I'm doing enough to avoid Palestinians rightfully describing me as complicit in their genocide. I believe not providing material support or voting for the people aiding and abetting their genocide is necessary, but not sufficient, for me to claim I'm not.

That said, I guess I'm curious how your reasoning applies to people that are serving in the IDF compared to Russian conscripts?

being "complicit in genocide" means to be a party to or involved in the planning or execution of the crime, even if not directly involved in the killing itself. It's a legal term under international law, meaning individuals or even states can be held responsible for genocide by assisting in its commission or failing to prevent it.

On May 21 2025 06:14 GreenHorizons wrote:


I mean, I do try. I've come a long way from when I saw pro-Palestinian activists outside of Bernie's rally in Seattle in 2015 that I was volunteering for and thought "that's not helping us win the primary".

But I still struggle to feel like I'm doing enough to avoid Palestinians rightfully describing me as complicit in their genocide. I believe not providing material support or voting for the people aiding and abetting their genocide is necessary, but not sufficient, for me to claim I'm not.

That said, I guess I'm curious how your reasoning applies to people that are serving in the IDF compared to Russian conscripts?

On May 21 2025 10:29 WombaT wrote:

Thanks for the clarification.

I think to a degree structures of power are such that it’s rather difficult to not be a tacit participant in some kind of horror somewhere. We can, and should strive for better of course

As to your further question, I mean it depends on the individual to a degree. On a more macro sense I might be more critical of Israelis here because they’re not living in a totalitarian state that actively targets dissent. Russians who actively oppose the war are a bit more limited in what they can do.

Especially in states with compulsory military service, or conscription, I’ve a hard time blaming the soldiers, unless they behave egregiously. Especially ones who may not agree with the conflict they’re sent to engage in.

The sort of wider psyche of the state is the problem. Israelis have more room by far to shape that than Russians, although this isn’t to excuse the latter

On May 21 2025 14:49 GreenHorizons wrote:

I think the diffusion of responsibility that the "structures of power" ostensibly provide leads to people thinking them voluntarily voting for people that are using that power to aid and abet genocide is somehow less condemnable than some Russian conscript in Ukraine trying to survive.

Contrary to your initial reaction, it seems you actually believe that "a voter in a western Democracy that voted for the people aiding and abetting the genocide of Palestinians is as condemnable as a Russian soldier in Ukraine (possibly moreso)", but only when the nuance of which voters and which soldiers is made more explicit.

On May 21 2025 14:49 GreenHorizons wrote:

I think the diffusion of responsibility that the "structures of power" ostensibly provide leads to people thinking them voluntarily voting for people that are using that power to aid and abet genocide is somehow less condemnable than some Russian conscript in Ukraine trying to survive.

Contrary to your initial reaction, it seems you actually believe that "a voter in a western Democracy that voted for the people aiding and abetting the genocide of Palestinians is as condemnable as a Russian soldier in Ukraine (possibly moreso)", but only when the nuance of which voters and which soldiers is made more explicit.

On May 22 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:

I wouldn’t say that necessarily, depends on the nation, depends on the leverage, depends what else is on the table. Depends indeed on one’s knowledge of the issue.

The Irish aren’t complicit in genocide, but they’ve no leverage to actually change that solo. To take one example.

So that comes into play as well. If you live in a nation that has little leverage in the conflict, people will be less liable to make it a red line single issue thing.

An Israeli voter, or to a lesser but still significant degree an American voter have much more impact than x European state

On May 21 2025 02:36 WombaT wrote:

This is a silly gotcha attempt.

I don’t actually get to vote for the UK’s main parties over here, Labour don’t run due to some historic alliance with the SDLP, the Tories do in a very limited sense. So in terms of swaying policy we have almost no impact whatsoever in terms of UK governments.

Intent also matters in terms of complicity.

Regardless of who I vote for, I’ve been involved in BDS for years. More than most here I’d wager.

If Russian soldier A is super for the prospect of conquering Ukraine, and Russian soldier B is a conscript who doesn’t support what they’re being forced to do, well I’ll judge them differently.

Aside from that, it’s a purely moral stance to take either way. Israel/Palestine has absolutely zero impact on us over here really.

Some will care, some won’t. Some will care but also go ‘why is this so much worse than all the other conflicts over the globe?’

This seeming desire of yours to pigeonhole everyone who isn’t you into genocide complicity is myopic in the extreme.

I’ve boycotted Israeli goods for about 20 years as both my grandfather and paternal aunty have been involved in pro-Palestine activism for decades, and that rubbed off on me. Ineffectual though I feel they are been to many a protest and meeting with Palestinian activists over here.

I assume you’ve done this as well.

You also consistently agitated against ‘Genocide Joe’ and yeah, probably a small role but actively enabled the election of a much worse regime for the Palestinians.

Which you just refuse to own to this day and try to gaslight people about.

On May 22 2025 08:18 KwarK wrote:
I don’t think Wombat voted for Biden.

On May 22 2025 08:15 stilt wrote:


Centrists have spearhearded themselves the destruction of the law of the state by criminalyzing anti genocide protest and then declaring it futile and "posturing" as you love doing it now.
The israel/Palestine question has a massive impact on our society road to fascism and the lead was the democrat party.

I don't get what you think anti genocide people should be obliged to vote for genocidal people. Why voting for a party with many candidates funded by aipac and which is leading the repression against you ? From your cosy place in ireland, would you vote for people who want to see you shut up at any cost ? With the climate of fear which is reigning in the french universities under macron's repression of palestinian protest, I don't get why I should vote for him, why I should vote for someone who wants me to shut up ? There is no answer to that.

And who is funding and even arming a genocide Wombat ? Did you suddently forget biden's policies ? Oh well, let me remind you, the democrat Joe biden gave a total diplomatic, economic support to israel while selling it billions of weapons.
And then he pretends to be different than the republicans ?

Like you love to play the uncompromising left card but the democrats and overall the western centrists have fully compromised with a genocidal state. But keep seething about the left as if the people your side designated as political ennemy should give a vote for you.

At least they are way more honest than you. I will give them that, there are extremely hypocritical but they don't reach your height, you're the champions, pretending that the victory of the democrat party would have helped in any shape of form the palestinian cause is truly a level of hypocrisy only the hardened centrists can achieve. And I am glad you're thinking the palestinian protesters play a role in your defeat, it means there is still an impact left. I actually don't think it did.

Anyway, that's always the good thing with radicals, contrary to centrists, they're more straightforward. Just like it makes smotrich better at rising concern for the palestinian cause because he is way more honest than netanyahu, after all, it's been a year since he called for reducing the population of gaza to 200k.
And your side give weapons to his side, and you think we have sth in common, oh boy, what a mixt of arrogance, delusion and hypocrisy.