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On May 11 2025 02:54 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2025 01:44 Billyboy wrote:On May 10 2025 21:51 WombaT wrote:On May 10 2025 21:29 Legan wrote:On May 10 2025 15:39 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.youtube.com/shorts/RXSZ3YhPR4sThis is Gaza right now. Just a quick reminder that Israel is doing this on purpose to make Palestinians suffer because it is a brutal, sadistic state. The comment section on that is horrific. It really is, and some of it is just outright ridiculous. Actors? For fuck sake. If they’re actors, Gaza may well be a world leader in gifted child actors The same disgusting shit is happening whenever Israeli's die too. Same with Russians celebrating Ukrainian deaths, and likely the same shit is happening in India and Pakistan now. People are pretty shitty. I really want to speak out against the feeling that people are shitty with the nuance that only some people are. Most are not. If society starts thinking people in general are shitty things start breaking down rapidly.
I think most things are spectrum and people are neither all good nor all bad, lots of it environmental (what is good is subjective and cultural as well). In designing a society it is mistake to think there won't be bad actors, just as it would be to think they are all bad actors.
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Northern Ireland24390 Posts
On May 11 2025 01:41 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 21:33 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 08 2025 02:49 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 23:52 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 23:06 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 21:06 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 10:22 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 10:10 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2025 10:07 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
So, based on this explanation, you have no problem differentiating between hating people for their identity and hating people for their political opinions? Excellent. The two are inextricably tied in Israel. Whereas in China and Russia they are not. These are not the owns you two think they are. So, just to be clear, according to you if someone has a jewish identity, they support Netanyahu? And I'm the one who is supposed to be antisemitic? Another swing and a miss! Also you used that word not me. There is a reason when I talk about Gaza I talk about Hamas not Gazans, it is really not a big ask to direct your hate at the minority of Israelis who enable this level of violence. It is even less writing to write IDF, but for some reason you must use Israel. For those of you wondering why no one but those in complete lock step respond in this thread is because any discussion is met with such hate. Imagine what would happen if a a pro Israel person was here, you're brutal to Israelis are not all evil people. Do we have to imagine? Thanks for proving my point. My point is this is not a hypothetical, we have had, and indeed still have such voices, and they’re broadly not attacked in that manner. You yourself are obviously pro-Israel, absolutely not a zealot but I thini that’s broadly a fair observation. Or perhaps a better example is the Ukraine/Russia thread. There’s plenty of civility and hostility there, but it’s based on expressed views not simply being Russian or not. Indeed the individual who garners the most hostile pushback is not Russian. There’s plenty of Russian users going about their day unmolested on here. Your hypothetical has already occurred, and it hasn’t played out the way you’re framing it. To reiterate, these things are commonplace elsewhere, and if I saw them here I’d challenge them. If Neb said ‘all Jews’, or whatever it is. Instead it’s you saying ‘well actually this is what Neb means’ when he said no such thing. So we enter a frustrating and pointless loop. Incidentally, it’s also a dangerous playbook to take out IMO. Which I have pointed out in the past. Plenty make the transition from anti-Israel/sympathetic to Palestine to being actually anti-Semitic, if this play is used too liberally. A real self-fulfilling prophecy there. Not, I don’t think a danger for Liquidians here or anything, but it does absolutely happen, it’s a method of argumentation I’d absolutely avoid like the plague. To you and many on the thread not hating Israel and thinking it is the most evil country in the world is being pro Israel. And that is a strange position. On May 08 2025 00:02 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 23:09 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 22:04 Nebuchad wrote:Watch out guys, Jimmi thinks that every Chinese person is building colonies in Bhutan On November 14 2024 03:30 Billyboy wrote:
As long as Bibi stays in power and needs the even further right to bolster his support, I agree. They are not quite the government subsidized colonies like China is building in Bhutan, but similar idea. Maybe you are so sensitive because the only difference between your position and an anti-Semites position is the word Israel or Jew. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/05/asia/china-bhutan-border-dst-intl-hnk/index.htmlThere is obviously nuance you actively avoid thinking about. When you get into the conspiracy crap about Israel always planning genocide. Compared to say Israel dropping a bomb. Because words have meaning. One denotes a state, the other an ethnic group, not all of whom reside in or even agree with said state. Neither is the position even the same anyway. ‘Israel should stop doing shitty things’ may absolutely be shared by the anti-Semite, but they add a whole shitload of other stuff on top that Neb hasn’t expressed. This thing you’re doing isn’t nuance, it’s not adding depth or complexity to the conversation, it’s nitpicking. Often erroneous nitpicking that then necessitates re-litigating initial points over and over in different ways. What are the differences between any number of peoples positions on Israel in this thread and anti-Semites? I of course know words mean things, this is why I insert the word Jew so it is not as easy and makes people uncomfortable to say awful things. If people were talking about how the Palestinians were rapists and murderers would that upset you more than if they said it of Hamas? Is it that hard to change the words people use? As a leftist don't you do it regularly for basically every other group? I don't think the difference is that hard to spot. Most leftists in this thread are vehemently anti-racist, and fully aware of unconscious bias and how it works. I can't speak for everyone, but I've spent more than a few hours thinking about whether my contempt for Israel is blurring the line between criticism and antisemitism, and ensuring that I don't get dragged over that line. When you do things like 'insert the word Jew' to try and catch people out saying something so you can call them antisemitic, it isn't helpful in the slightest, its just further muddying the waters and making things more difficult for no reason other than to have this conversation AGAIN, instead of whatever we were discussing previously. The question has to be asked what motivation there could be for doing that, given that you don't consider yourself pro-Israel. Maybe a useful thing to do here would be to point out if you see an argument being used that you feel is antisemitic, is to say 'that is antisemitic' instead of 'you are antisemitic and you hate jews'. That's how I tend to interact with people on the right. You don't have to be a racist to use a racist argument, you simply might not have looked at it that way. I think it is very easy to spot on the "other" team, but very hard to spot on people we consider "our" team. I fully believe that you have done that critical thinking and self evaluation and will continue too. You make thoughtful posts consistently. I have said that things are anti-Semitic and then get accused of saying the people are anti-Semitic, then insulted over and over, then eventually lash out at assholes. If you look back it will be a real struggle for you to find examples of me calling people anti-Semitic or saying that they hate jews. You will be able to find tons of responses of people accusing me of that and others assuming that I did. The reality is leftists are taking in a TON of anti-Semitic material that does not make them all anti-Semitic. Some of it is made for the expected reasons, others are made just to create hate and chaos. If you think there are no leftists completely down the rabbit hole just look to Roger Waters. Other examples would be talking about how Maduro is a great socialist and a man of the people, when all fact and reason says the opposite. Or being against imperialism and genocide and thinking Xi and his billionaire oligarchs are great socialists. Think of the people who are marching and chanting death to Israel and to push them into the sea and shit. Another good super recent example is Putins disgusting victory day celebration where they celebrate their active imperialist war and geocidal and war crime based strategy. And who attends? Xi, Maduro, Lula da Silva, (Iran is there but they are closer to far right) nothing says true "leftists" like showing up to support a fascist monster. Funny how Russia could swap from far left to far right and keep the same allies. When it comes to authoritarians left and right are simply branding. There are moral leftists and there are asshole ones. Being a leftist does not make people immune from propaganda or racism, keep in mind basically 0 percent of people consider themselves racist. Few even think they have biases, they just assume they are right. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/00207020241257635https://www.reuters.com/article/world/asia-pacific/facebook-says-russian-influence-campaign-targeted-left-wing-voters-in-us-uk-idUSKBN25S5UA/https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/russia-and-iran-ramping-up-influence-campaigns-targeting-us-voters-federal-agencies-say
Extremely debatable
That you followed this ramble with an immediate delve into whataboutery is quite instructive in that you actually aren’t remotely as good at recognising and unpicking your own biases as you think you are.
Which is fine, it’s a hard thing to do, it’s just you simultaneously feel free to lecture other people at the same time.
Or often some straw man that’s apparently going around praising Maduro and handclapping Russia or whatever.
I’d dare say you bring in these hyperbolic strawmen because confronting that actually quite a lot of posters in this thread are yeah generally left-leaning but relatively moderate puts the spotlight on your consistent handwaving
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On May 11 2025 04:23 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2025 01:41 Billyboy wrote:On May 08 2025 21:33 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 08 2025 02:49 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 23:52 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 23:06 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 21:06 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 10:22 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 10:10 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2025 10:07 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
The two are inextricably tied in Israel. Whereas in China and Russia they are not. These are not the owns you two think they are. So, just to be clear, according to you if someone has a jewish identity, they support Netanyahu? And I'm the one who is supposed to be antisemitic? Another swing and a miss! Also you used that word not me. There is a reason when I talk about Gaza I talk about Hamas not Gazans, it is really not a big ask to direct your hate at the minority of Israelis who enable this level of violence. It is even less writing to write IDF, but for some reason you must use Israel. For those of you wondering why no one but those in complete lock step respond in this thread is because any discussion is met with such hate. Imagine what would happen if a a pro Israel person was here, you're brutal to Israelis are not all evil people. Do we have to imagine? Thanks for proving my point. My point is this is not a hypothetical, we have had, and indeed still have such voices, and they’re broadly not attacked in that manner. You yourself are obviously pro-Israel, absolutely not a zealot but I thini that’s broadly a fair observation. Or perhaps a better example is the Ukraine/Russia thread. There’s plenty of civility and hostility there, but it’s based on expressed views not simply being Russian or not. Indeed the individual who garners the most hostile pushback is not Russian. There’s plenty of Russian users going about their day unmolested on here. Your hypothetical has already occurred, and it hasn’t played out the way you’re framing it. To reiterate, these things are commonplace elsewhere, and if I saw them here I’d challenge them. If Neb said ‘all Jews’, or whatever it is. Instead it’s you saying ‘well actually this is what Neb means’ when he said no such thing. So we enter a frustrating and pointless loop. Incidentally, it’s also a dangerous playbook to take out IMO. Which I have pointed out in the past. Plenty make the transition from anti-Israel/sympathetic to Palestine to being actually anti-Semitic, if this play is used too liberally. A real self-fulfilling prophecy there. Not, I don’t think a danger for Liquidians here or anything, but it does absolutely happen, it’s a method of argumentation I’d absolutely avoid like the plague. To you and many on the thread not hating Israel and thinking it is the most evil country in the world is being pro Israel. And that is a strange position. On May 08 2025 00:02 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 23:09 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 22:04 Nebuchad wrote:Watch out guys, Jimmi thinks that every Chinese person is building colonies in Bhutan On November 14 2024 03:30 Billyboy wrote:
As long as Bibi stays in power and needs the even further right to bolster his support, I agree. They are not quite the government subsidized colonies like China is building in Bhutan, but similar idea. Maybe you are so sensitive because the only difference between your position and an anti-Semites position is the word Israel or Jew. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/05/asia/china-bhutan-border-dst-intl-hnk/index.htmlThere is obviously nuance you actively avoid thinking about. When you get into the conspiracy crap about Israel always planning genocide. Compared to say Israel dropping a bomb. Because words have meaning. One denotes a state, the other an ethnic group, not all of whom reside in or even agree with said state. Neither is the position even the same anyway. ‘Israel should stop doing shitty things’ may absolutely be shared by the anti-Semite, but they add a whole shitload of other stuff on top that Neb hasn’t expressed. This thing you’re doing isn’t nuance, it’s not adding depth or complexity to the conversation, it’s nitpicking. Often erroneous nitpicking that then necessitates re-litigating initial points over and over in different ways. What are the differences between any number of peoples positions on Israel in this thread and anti-Semites? I of course know words mean things, this is why I insert the word Jew so it is not as easy and makes people uncomfortable to say awful things. If people were talking about how the Palestinians were rapists and murderers would that upset you more than if they said it of Hamas? Is it that hard to change the words people use? As a leftist don't you do it regularly for basically every other group? I don't think the difference is that hard to spot. Most leftists in this thread are vehemently anti-racist, and fully aware of unconscious bias and how it works. I can't speak for everyone, but I've spent more than a few hours thinking about whether my contempt for Israel is blurring the line between criticism and antisemitism, and ensuring that I don't get dragged over that line. When you do things like 'insert the word Jew' to try and catch people out saying something so you can call them antisemitic, it isn't helpful in the slightest, its just further muddying the waters and making things more difficult for no reason other than to have this conversation AGAIN, instead of whatever we were discussing previously. The question has to be asked what motivation there could be for doing that, given that you don't consider yourself pro-Israel. Maybe a useful thing to do here would be to point out if you see an argument being used that you feel is antisemitic, is to say 'that is antisemitic' instead of 'you are antisemitic and you hate jews'. That's how I tend to interact with people on the right. You don't have to be a racist to use a racist argument, you simply might not have looked at it that way. I think it is very easy to spot on the "other" team, but very hard to spot on people we consider "our" team. I fully believe that you have done that critical thinking and self evaluation and will continue too. You make thoughtful posts consistently. I have said that things are anti-Semitic and then get accused of saying the people are anti-Semitic, then insulted over and over, then eventually lash out at assholes. If you look back it will be a real struggle for you to find examples of me calling people anti-Semitic or saying that they hate jews. You will be able to find tons of responses of people accusing me of that and others assuming that I did. The reality is leftists are taking in a TON of anti-Semitic material that does not make them all anti-Semitic. Some of it is made for the expected reasons, others are made just to create hate and chaos. If you think there are no leftists completely down the rabbit hole just look to Roger Waters. Other examples would be talking about how Maduro is a great socialist and a man of the people, when all fact and reason says the opposite. Or being against imperialism and genocide and thinking Xi and his billionaire oligarchs are great socialists. Think of the people who are marching and chanting death to Israel and to push them into the sea and shit. Another good super recent example is Putins disgusting victory day celebration where they celebrate their active imperialist war and geocidal and war crime based strategy. And who attends? Xi, Maduro, Lula da Silva, (Iran is there but they are closer to far right) nothing says true "leftists" like showing up to support a fascist monster. Funny how Russia could swap from far left to far right and keep the same allies. When it comes to authoritarians left and right are simply branding. There are moral leftists and there are asshole ones. Being a leftist does not make people immune from propaganda or racism, keep in mind basically 0 percent of people consider themselves racist. Few even think they have biases, they just assume they are right. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/00207020241257635https://www.reuters.com/article/world/asia-pacific/facebook-says-russian-influence-campaign-targeted-left-wing-voters-in-us-uk-idUSKBN25S5UA/https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/russia-and-iran-ramping-up-influence-campaigns-targeting-us-voters-federal-agencies-say Extremely debatable That you followed this ramble with an immediate delve into whataboutery is quite instructive in that you actually aren’t remotely as good at recognising and unpicking your own biases as you think you are. Which is fine, it’s a hard thing to do, it’s just you simultaneously feel free to lecture other people at the same time. Or often some straw man that’s apparently going around praising Maduro and handclapping Russia or whatever. I’d dare say you bring in these hyperbolic strawmen because confronting that actually quite a lot of posters in this thread are yeah generally left-leaning but relatively moderate puts the spotlight on your consistent handwaving
You are misusing whataboutism "the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue." There was no accusation that I saw, and I didn't respond with an accusation. I also was clear I was not washing away the comments made by those in the one thread, just pointing out it is not unique but rather the norm, and that is sad and bad.
Next that is not a strawman, at least Neb and GH were Maduro supporters and thought the bad stuff about him was capitalist propaganda. They could have changed their positions, but they have no indicated as much and given how hard and long they went about it, it seems unlikely to me. Then there is Redhorizons posts in the Ukraine thread.
My issue with you wombat is for some reason you expect me to make either absolutely no assumptions or only positive assumptions about you and the people you feel are in your camp. But on the flip side you do no remotely hold yourself to that same standard. Why do you hold me to a higher standard than yourself and the people you think are "good"? Shouldn't you be holding them and yourself to the higher standard and be giving me some grace since I am "bad"?
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