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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On May 08 2025 08:25 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 08:19 WombaT wrote:On May 08 2025 08:04 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 07:57 WombaT wrote:
but monsters that will almost inevitably form given those conditions. Hamas aren't a product of their environment, their environment is a product of Hamas. Jordan is an example of a Palestinian state that had different leadership. The current war with Israel is still going on because Hamas won't leave power and them remaining in power is a dealbreaker to many Israeli politicians. Gaza is the way it is primarily because of Hamas. It didn't have to be. We shouldn't reverse our causality. Jordan isn’t Gaza. But yes point taken about historical off-ramps, and plenty being missed. At this juncture it’s rather difficult to envisage much changing at all, even if Hamas get turfed out. The population aren’t going to become all about coexistence peaceniks after these last few years especially. + Show Spoiler +Gaza wasn't Gaza before it was. Palestinians are capable of living normal lives everywhere that isn't run by Iranian terrorist proxies. Jordan, Syria, Israel etc. This isn't something organic that grew out of Palestinians, this was done to them.
But yes, it doesn't actually matter, nothing is getting fixed. Fucked and getting more fucked each year. Traumatized kids having traumatized kids. Median age of 17. Putting birth control in the drinking water would simultaneously be genocidal and a kindness.
Oof...
That's probably not acceptable to say about any group of people under any circumstances
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Northern Ireland24378 Posts
On May 08 2025 08:13 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 08:06 WombaT wrote:Not really cool that. Hey if Neb has suggested a desire to drive out all the Israelis forcibly I stand corrected. If he has not, perhaps retract that. I promise too as long as he does the same, until then I'll also jump to conclusions based on my assumptions of his posts. But for some reason you think it is your job to hold me accountable but he and whoever else can shit on me and you have their back. I've noticed you don't enjoy it when GH pulls his shit on you, and notice I don't jump in to talk shit to you when you respond in kind? Maybe worry about you.
So, does Neb want to purge Israel from the river to the sea or not?
If you have the receipts, fair enough, I await them. If people are saying anti-Semitic things, call it out and hopefully the mods wield the hammer.
If not, well it’s not really cool to make such an accusation.
Hey I’m not the TL police, just giving my 50 cents. Maybe the rest of the thread disagrees with me on this one
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You just googled "Israel complex" and posted some results without reading them. In one of those articles it is mentioned (derogatorily) that a bunch of academics agree with the left, but I guess they're just not using critical thinking. What you don't find in these articles, at all, is anything that is actually complex. The word "complex" is there simply because it is hard to justify why we're siding with Israel in this conflict, as there are no simple reasons to do so, so you just add "complex" to project some complexity onto Apartheid and colonialism. If (and when) any country that isn't aligned with the West does a tenth of what Israel has done and is doing, nobody finds any complexity there.
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United States42249 Posts
On May 08 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 08:25 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:19 WombaT wrote:On May 08 2025 08:04 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 07:57 WombaT wrote:
but monsters that will almost inevitably form given those conditions. Hamas aren't a product of their environment, their environment is a product of Hamas. Jordan is an example of a Palestinian state that had different leadership. The current war with Israel is still going on because Hamas won't leave power and them remaining in power is a dealbreaker to many Israeli politicians. Gaza is the way it is primarily because of Hamas. It didn't have to be. We shouldn't reverse our causality. Jordan isn’t Gaza. But yes point taken about historical off-ramps, and plenty being missed. At this juncture it’s rather difficult to envisage much changing at all, even if Hamas get turfed out. The population aren’t going to become all about coexistence peaceniks after these last few years especially. + Show Spoiler +Gaza wasn't Gaza before it was. Palestinians are capable of living normal lives everywhere that isn't run by Iranian terrorist proxies. Jordan, Syria, Israel etc. This isn't something organic that grew out of Palestinians, this was done to them.
But yes, it doesn't actually matter, nothing is getting fixed. Fucked and getting more fucked each year. Traumatized kids having traumatized kids. Median age of 17. Putting birth control in the drinking water would simultaneously be genocidal and a kindness. Oof... That's probably not acceptable to say about any group of people under any circumstances
I'm not going to do it. Fortunately nobody is requiring me to make impossible decisions about Gaza.
It's completely reasonable to say that some people shouldn't have kids. People who can't provide for them, for example, shouldn't have kids. People who live in an area that doesn't have food stability and routinely suffers devastating famines that leave kids starving to death. People in live in areas with ongoing civil wars where children are tortured and raped and forced to become child soldiers. People who are married to their cousins. People who have severe developmental disabilities living in a group home with others who have severe developmental disabilities who keep fucking.
Lots of people shouldn't have kids. That's completely fine to say. Fucking Elon should stop having kids until he gets more involved in parenting the ones he has.
What isn't fine is to forcibly sterilize people. The state has a long history of fucking it up whenever they cross that line. There's no reasonable way to use that power and so they shouldn't use that power.
It's not in any way contradictory to recognize that these two things can be true.
Gaza should not be sterilized because forced sterilization is abominable.
Two 14 year old first cousins living in Gaza with no home, no food supply, no education, no income, and no hope shouldn't have a third child in addition to the two they already have.
Trying to make a public policy that avoids both outcomes is difficult but also not my job.
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On May 08 2025 08:38 Nebuchad wrote:You just googled "Israel complex" and posted some results without reading them. In one of those articles it is mentioned (derogatorily) that a bunch of academics agree with the left, but I guess they're just not using critical thinking. What you don't find in these articles, at all, is anything that is actually complex. The word "complex" is there simply because it is hard to justify why we're siding with Israel in this conflict, as there are no simple reasons to do so, so you just add "complex" to project some complexity onto Apartheid and colonialism. If (and when) any country that isn't aligned with the West does a tenth of what Israel has done and is doing, nobody finds any complexity there.
I do this thing completely foreign to you and read sources that agree and disagree with my take on things.
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On May 08 2025 08:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:25 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:19 WombaT wrote:On May 08 2025 08:04 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 07:57 WombaT wrote:
but monsters that will almost inevitably form given those conditions. Hamas aren't a product of their environment, their environment is a product of Hamas. Jordan is an example of a Palestinian state that had different leadership. The current war with Israel is still going on because Hamas won't leave power and them remaining in power is a dealbreaker to many Israeli politicians. Gaza is the way it is primarily because of Hamas. It didn't have to be. We shouldn't reverse our causality. Jordan isn’t Gaza. But yes point taken about historical off-ramps, and plenty being missed. At this juncture it’s rather difficult to envisage much changing at all, even if Hamas get turfed out. The population aren’t going to become all about coexistence peaceniks after these last few years especially. + Show Spoiler +Gaza wasn't Gaza before it was. Palestinians are capable of living normal lives everywhere that isn't run by Iranian terrorist proxies. Jordan, Syria, Israel etc. This isn't something organic that grew out of Palestinians, this was done to them.
But yes, it doesn't actually matter, nothing is getting fixed. Fucked and getting more fucked each year. Traumatized kids having traumatized kids. Median age of 17. Putting birth control in the drinking water would simultaneously be genocidal and a kindness. Oof... That's probably not acceptable to say about any group of people under any circumstances + Show Spoiler +I'm not going to do it. Fortunately nobody is requiring me to make impossible decisions about Gaza. It's completely reasonable to say that some people shouldn't have kids. + Show Spoiler + People who can't provide for them, for example, shouldn't have kids. People who live in an area that doesn't have food stability and routinely suffers devastating famines that leave kids starving to death. People in live in areas with ongoing civil wars where children are tortured and raped and forced to become child soldiers. + Show Spoiler +People who are married to their cousins. People who have severe developmental disabilities living in a group home with others who have severe developmental disabilities who keep fucking.
Lots of people shouldn't have kids. That's completely fine to say. Fucking Elon should stop having kids until he gets more involved in parenting the ones he has.
What isn't fine is to forcibly sterilize people. The state has a long history of fucking it up whenever they cross that line. There's no reasonable way to use that power and so they shouldn't use that power.
It's not in any way contradictory to recognize that these two things can be true.
Gaza should not be sterilized because forced sterilization is abominable.
Two 14 year old first cousins living in Gaza with no home, no food supply, no education, no income, and no hope shouldn't have a third child in addition to the two they already have.
Trying to make a public policy that avoids both outcomes is difficult but also not my job.
Would that apply to Ukrainians, particularly in the East?
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Northern Ireland24378 Posts
On May 08 2025 08:47 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 08:40 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:25 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:19 WombaT wrote:On May 08 2025 08:04 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 07:57 WombaT wrote:
but monsters that will almost inevitably form given those conditions. Hamas aren't a product of their environment, their environment is a product of Hamas. Jordan is an example of a Palestinian state that had different leadership. The current war with Israel is still going on because Hamas won't leave power and them remaining in power is a dealbreaker to many Israeli politicians. Gaza is the way it is primarily because of Hamas. It didn't have to be. We shouldn't reverse our causality. Jordan isn’t Gaza. But yes point taken about historical off-ramps, and plenty being missed. At this juncture it’s rather difficult to envisage much changing at all, even if Hamas get turfed out. The population aren’t going to become all about coexistence peaceniks after these last few years especially. + Show Spoiler +Gaza wasn't Gaza before it was. Palestinians are capable of living normal lives everywhere that isn't run by Iranian terrorist proxies. Jordan, Syria, Israel etc. This isn't something organic that grew out of Palestinians, this was done to them.
But yes, it doesn't actually matter, nothing is getting fixed. Fucked and getting more fucked each year. Traumatized kids having traumatized kids. Median age of 17. Putting birth control in the drinking water would simultaneously be genocidal and a kindness. Oof... That's probably not acceptable to say about any group of people under any circumstances + Show Spoiler +I'm not going to do it. Fortunately nobody is requiring me to make impossible decisions about Gaza. It's completely reasonable to say that some people shouldn't have kids. + Show Spoiler + People who can't provide for them, for example, shouldn't have kids. People who live in an area that doesn't have food stability and routinely suffers devastating famines that leave kids starving to death. People in live in areas with ongoing civil wars where children are tortured and raped and forced to become child soldiers. + Show Spoiler +People who are married to their cousins. People who have severe developmental disabilities living in a group home with others who have severe developmental disabilities who keep fucking.
Lots of people shouldn't have kids. That's completely fine to say. Fucking Elon should stop having kids until he gets more involved in parenting the ones he has.
What isn't fine is to forcibly sterilize people. The state has a long history of fucking it up whenever they cross that line. There's no reasonable way to use that power and so they shouldn't use that power.
It's not in any way contradictory to recognize that these two things can be true.
Gaza should not be sterilized because forced sterilization is abominable.
Two 14 year old first cousins living in Gaza with no home, no food supply, no education, no income, and no hope shouldn't have a third child in addition to the two they already have.
Trying to make a public policy that avoids both outcomes is difficult but also not my job. Would that apply to Ukrainians, particularly in the East?
War isn’t exactly ideal but day-to-day material conditions aren’t remotely comparable.
Even in best worst case scenario where it’s a bit protracted and half the country gets subsumed by Russia, any new Ukrainian sproglets can have some reasonable expectation of a decent, regular existence.
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United States42249 Posts
On May 08 2025 08:47 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 08:40 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:25 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:19 WombaT wrote:On May 08 2025 08:04 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 07:57 WombaT wrote:
but monsters that will almost inevitably form given those conditions. Hamas aren't a product of their environment, their environment is a product of Hamas. Jordan is an example of a Palestinian state that had different leadership. The current war with Israel is still going on because Hamas won't leave power and them remaining in power is a dealbreaker to many Israeli politicians. Gaza is the way it is primarily because of Hamas. It didn't have to be. We shouldn't reverse our causality. Jordan isn’t Gaza. But yes point taken about historical off-ramps, and plenty being missed. At this juncture it’s rather difficult to envisage much changing at all, even if Hamas get turfed out. The population aren’t going to become all about coexistence peaceniks after these last few years especially. + Show Spoiler +Gaza wasn't Gaza before it was. Palestinians are capable of living normal lives everywhere that isn't run by Iranian terrorist proxies. Jordan, Syria, Israel etc. This isn't something organic that grew out of Palestinians, this was done to them.
But yes, it doesn't actually matter, nothing is getting fixed. Fucked and getting more fucked each year. Traumatized kids having traumatized kids. Median age of 17. Putting birth control in the drinking water would simultaneously be genocidal and a kindness. Oof... That's probably not acceptable to say about any group of people under any circumstances + Show Spoiler +I'm not going to do it. Fortunately nobody is requiring me to make impossible decisions about Gaza. It's completely reasonable to say that some people shouldn't have kids. + Show Spoiler + People who can't provide for them, for example, shouldn't have kids. People who live in an area that doesn't have food stability and routinely suffers devastating famines that leave kids starving to death. People in live in areas with ongoing civil wars where children are tortured and raped and forced to become child soldiers. + Show Spoiler +People who are married to their cousins. People who have severe developmental disabilities living in a group home with others who have severe developmental disabilities who keep fucking.
Lots of people shouldn't have kids. That's completely fine to say. Fucking Elon should stop having kids until he gets more involved in parenting the ones he has.
What isn't fine is to forcibly sterilize people. The state has a long history of fucking it up whenever they cross that line. There's no reasonable way to use that power and so they shouldn't use that power.
It's not in any way contradictory to recognize that these two things can be true.
Gaza should not be sterilized because forced sterilization is abominable.
Two 14 year old first cousins living in Gaza with no home, no food supply, no education, no income, and no hope shouldn't have a third child in addition to the two they already have.
Trying to make a public policy that avoids both outcomes is difficult but also not my job. Would that apply to Ukrainians, particularly in the East?
If someone lived in Mariupol in 2020 for example I would probably recommend against them having kids. But no, Eastern Ukraine isn't even 1% as bad as Gaza. If Eastern Ukraine was a pregnant mother who wouldn't stop smoking during the pregnancy then Gaza is a pregnant mother who mixes her daily heroin with thalidomide. I can say that a pregnant mother who mixes her daily heroin with thalidomide shouldn't have kids without that being applicable to someone who smokes while pregnant.
Gaza is a more uniquely awful scenario because of how bad it is and because it can't and won't get better, it just gets worse every year. With the Mariupol example they can move to somewhere where the Russians are less likely to herd all the children into an opera house and then destroy it with them inside. So your kids aren't certain to die. And Ukraine can feed itself. Ukrainians have a hope for a normal life for their children, they remember what normalcy looked like, they can work their way back there.
There is no hope for Gaza. If I was brain switched with a Gazan I would not bring children into the prison camp of terror and starvation that I lived in.
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On May 08 2025 07:43 Billyboy wrote:
Edit: Neb is one of the biggest reasons you will never actual discussion on this thread. Anyone who posts something he doesn't have a good answer for he just attacks them personally. Hmmm I wonder why that is?
Lol the last few pages are you personally attacking me calling me an antisemite because you don't have a good answer for what I'm saying, while I only attack your arguments. Every few posts you get cornered by like 5 different people and you switch to a completely different claim. You do not care about what you're saying, at all, you're just posting contrarian nonsense.
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On May 08 2025 08:54 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 08:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:40 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:25 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:19 WombaT wrote:On May 08 2025 08:04 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 07:57 WombaT wrote:
but monsters that will almost inevitably form given those conditions. Hamas aren't a product of their environment, their environment is a product of Hamas. Jordan is an example of a Palestinian state that had different leadership. The current war with Israel is still going on because Hamas won't leave power and them remaining in power is a dealbreaker to many Israeli politicians. Gaza is the way it is primarily because of Hamas. It didn't have to be. We shouldn't reverse our causality. Jordan isn’t Gaza. But yes point taken about historical off-ramps, and plenty being missed. At this juncture it’s rather difficult to envisage much changing at all, even if Hamas get turfed out. The population aren’t going to become all about coexistence peaceniks after these last few years especially. + Show Spoiler +Gaza wasn't Gaza before it was. Palestinians are capable of living normal lives everywhere that isn't run by Iranian terrorist proxies. Jordan, Syria, Israel etc. This isn't something organic that grew out of Palestinians, this was done to them.
But yes, it doesn't actually matter, nothing is getting fixed. Fucked and getting more fucked each year. Traumatized kids having traumatized kids. Median age of 17. Putting birth control in the drinking water would simultaneously be genocidal and a kindness. Oof... That's probably not acceptable to say about any group of people under any circumstances + Show Spoiler +I'm not going to do it. Fortunately nobody is requiring me to make impossible decisions about Gaza. It's completely reasonable to say that some people shouldn't have kids. + Show Spoiler + People who can't provide for them, for example, shouldn't have kids. People who live in an area that doesn't have food stability and routinely suffers devastating famines that leave kids starving to death. People in live in areas with ongoing civil wars where children are tortured and raped and forced to become child soldiers. + Show Spoiler +People who are married to their cousins. People who have severe developmental disabilities living in a group home with others who have severe developmental disabilities who keep fucking.
Lots of people shouldn't have kids. That's completely fine to say. Fucking Elon should stop having kids until he gets more involved in parenting the ones he has.
What isn't fine is to forcibly sterilize people. The state has a long history of fucking it up whenever they cross that line. There's no reasonable way to use that power and so they shouldn't use that power.
It's not in any way contradictory to recognize that these two things can be true.
Gaza should not be sterilized because forced sterilization is abominable.
Two 14 year old first cousins living in Gaza with no home, no food supply, no education, no income, and no hope shouldn't have a third child in addition to the two they already have.
Trying to make a public policy that avoids both outcomes is difficult but also not my job. Would that apply to Ukrainians, particularly in the East? + Show Spoiler +If someone lived in Mariupol in 2020 for example I would probably recommend against them having kids. But no, Eastern Ukraine isn't even 1% as bad as Gaza. If Eastern Ukraine was a pregnant mother who wouldn't stop smoking during the pregnancy then Gaza is a pregnant mother who mixes her daily heroin with thalidomide. I can say that a pregnant mother who mixes her daily heroin with thalidomide shouldn't have kids without that being applicable to someone who smokes while pregnant. + Show Spoiler +Gaza is a more uniquely awful scenario because of how bad it is and because it can't and won't get better, it just gets worse every year. With the Mariupol example they can move to somewhere where the Russians are less likely to herd all the children into an opera house and then destroy it with them inside. So your kids aren't certain to die. And Ukraine can feed itself. Ukrainians have a hope for a normal life for their children, they remember what normalcy looked like, they can work their way back there.
There is no hope for Gaza. If I was brain switched with a Gazan I would not bring children into the prison camp of terror and starvation that I lived in.
I realized after I mentioned Ukraine (which I'm not even going to touch how messed up that reasoning is) that I should have just focused on pointing out the rhetorical sleight of hand you tried by switching from "genocide would be a kindness" to "shouldn't have kids".
I'd prefer you apologize for saying something so messed up and unacceptable, I'd understand if you just shut up and pretended like it didn't happen, I really don't want you to keep trying to rationalize it.
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United States42249 Posts
On May 08 2025 09:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 08:54 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:40 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:25 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:19 WombaT wrote:On May 08 2025 08:04 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 07:57 WombaT wrote:
but monsters that will almost inevitably form given those conditions. Hamas aren't a product of their environment, their environment is a product of Hamas. Jordan is an example of a Palestinian state that had different leadership. The current war with Israel is still going on because Hamas won't leave power and them remaining in power is a dealbreaker to many Israeli politicians. Gaza is the way it is primarily because of Hamas. It didn't have to be. We shouldn't reverse our causality. Jordan isn’t Gaza. But yes point taken about historical off-ramps, and plenty being missed. At this juncture it’s rather difficult to envisage much changing at all, even if Hamas get turfed out. The population aren’t going to become all about coexistence peaceniks after these last few years especially. + Show Spoiler +Gaza wasn't Gaza before it was. Palestinians are capable of living normal lives everywhere that isn't run by Iranian terrorist proxies. Jordan, Syria, Israel etc. This isn't something organic that grew out of Palestinians, this was done to them.
But yes, it doesn't actually matter, nothing is getting fixed. Fucked and getting more fucked each year. Traumatized kids having traumatized kids. Median age of 17. Putting birth control in the drinking water would simultaneously be genocidal and a kindness. Oof... That's probably not acceptable to say about any group of people under any circumstances + Show Spoiler +I'm not going to do it. Fortunately nobody is requiring me to make impossible decisions about Gaza. It's completely reasonable to say that some people shouldn't have kids. + Show Spoiler + People who can't provide for them, for example, shouldn't have kids. People who live in an area that doesn't have food stability and routinely suffers devastating famines that leave kids starving to death. People in live in areas with ongoing civil wars where children are tortured and raped and forced to become child soldiers. + Show Spoiler +People who are married to their cousins. People who have severe developmental disabilities living in a group home with others who have severe developmental disabilities who keep fucking.
Lots of people shouldn't have kids. That's completely fine to say. Fucking Elon should stop having kids until he gets more involved in parenting the ones he has.
What isn't fine is to forcibly sterilize people. The state has a long history of fucking it up whenever they cross that line. There's no reasonable way to use that power and so they shouldn't use that power.
It's not in any way contradictory to recognize that these two things can be true.
Gaza should not be sterilized because forced sterilization is abominable.
Two 14 year old first cousins living in Gaza with no home, no food supply, no education, no income, and no hope shouldn't have a third child in addition to the two they already have.
Trying to make a public policy that avoids both outcomes is difficult but also not my job. Would that apply to Ukrainians, particularly in the East? + Show Spoiler +If someone lived in Mariupol in 2020 for example I would probably recommend against them having kids. But no, Eastern Ukraine isn't even 1% as bad as Gaza. If Eastern Ukraine was a pregnant mother who wouldn't stop smoking during the pregnancy then Gaza is a pregnant mother who mixes her daily heroin with thalidomide. I can say that a pregnant mother who mixes her daily heroin with thalidomide shouldn't have kids without that being applicable to someone who smokes while pregnant. + Show Spoiler +Gaza is a more uniquely awful scenario because of how bad it is and because it can't and won't get better, it just gets worse every year. With the Mariupol example they can move to somewhere where the Russians are less likely to herd all the children into an opera house and then destroy it with them inside. So your kids aren't certain to die. And Ukraine can feed itself. Ukrainians have a hope for a normal life for their children, they remember what normalcy looked like, they can work their way back there.
There is no hope for Gaza. If I was brain switched with a Gazan I would not bring children into the prison camp of terror and starvation that I lived in. I realized after I mentioned Ukraine (which I'm not even going to touch how messed up that reasoning is) that I should have just focused on pointing out the rhetorical sleight of hand you tried by switching from "genocide would be a kindness" to "shouldn't have kids". I'd prefer you apologize for saying something so messed up and unacceptable, I'd understand if you just shut up and pretended like it didn't happen, I really don't want you to keep trying to rationalize it.
I'd like you to apologize too but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for one.
Having kids in Gaza is cruel to the kids. There are genetic conditions that I would have aborted for in the US due to quality of life concerns that offer substantially better quality of life than the children of Gaza can offer for their children.
Gaza's population has been experiencing extreme exponential growth for decades and the scale of the tragedy has been growing with the population. This is not getting better. Adding a million children to the place where the bombs are falling is not making things better.
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On May 08 2025 09:17 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 09:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:54 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:40 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:25 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:19 WombaT wrote:On May 08 2025 08:04 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 07:57 WombaT wrote:
but monsters that will almost inevitably form given those conditions. Hamas aren't a product of their environment, their environment is a product of Hamas. Jordan is an example of a Palestinian state that had different leadership. The current war with Israel is still going on because Hamas won't leave power and them remaining in power is a dealbreaker to many Israeli politicians. Gaza is the way it is primarily because of Hamas. It didn't have to be. We shouldn't reverse our causality. Jordan isn’t Gaza. But yes point taken about historical off-ramps, and plenty being missed. At this juncture it’s rather difficult to envisage much changing at all, even if Hamas get turfed out. The population aren’t going to become all about coexistence peaceniks after these last few years especially. + Show Spoiler +Gaza wasn't Gaza before it was. Palestinians are capable of living normal lives everywhere that isn't run by Iranian terrorist proxies. Jordan, Syria, Israel etc. This isn't something organic that grew out of Palestinians, this was done to them.
But yes, it doesn't actually matter, nothing is getting fixed. Fucked and getting more fucked each year. Traumatized kids having traumatized kids. Median age of 17. Putting birth control in the drinking water would simultaneously be genocidal and a kindness. Oof... That's probably not acceptable to say about any group of people under any circumstances + Show Spoiler +I'm not going to do it. Fortunately nobody is requiring me to make impossible decisions about Gaza. It's completely reasonable to say that some people shouldn't have kids. + Show Spoiler + People who can't provide for them, for example, shouldn't have kids. People who live in an area that doesn't have food stability and routinely suffers devastating famines that leave kids starving to death. People in live in areas with ongoing civil wars where children are tortured and raped and forced to become child soldiers. + Show Spoiler +People who are married to their cousins. People who have severe developmental disabilities living in a group home with others who have severe developmental disabilities who keep fucking.
Lots of people shouldn't have kids. That's completely fine to say. Fucking Elon should stop having kids until he gets more involved in parenting the ones he has.
What isn't fine is to forcibly sterilize people. The state has a long history of fucking it up whenever they cross that line. There's no reasonable way to use that power and so they shouldn't use that power.
It's not in any way contradictory to recognize that these two things can be true.
Gaza should not be sterilized because forced sterilization is abominable.
Two 14 year old first cousins living in Gaza with no home, no food supply, no education, no income, and no hope shouldn't have a third child in addition to the two they already have.
Trying to make a public policy that avoids both outcomes is difficult but also not my job. Would that apply to Ukrainians, particularly in the East? + Show Spoiler +If someone lived in Mariupol in 2020 for example I would probably recommend against them having kids. But no, Eastern Ukraine isn't even 1% as bad as Gaza. If Eastern Ukraine was a pregnant mother who wouldn't stop smoking during the pregnancy then Gaza is a pregnant mother who mixes her daily heroin with thalidomide. I can say that a pregnant mother who mixes her daily heroin with thalidomide shouldn't have kids without that being applicable to someone who smokes while pregnant. + Show Spoiler +Gaza is a more uniquely awful scenario because of how bad it is and because it can't and won't get better, it just gets worse every year. With the Mariupol example they can move to somewhere where the Russians are less likely to herd all the children into an opera house and then destroy it with them inside. So your kids aren't certain to die. And Ukraine can feed itself. Ukrainians have a hope for a normal life for their children, they remember what normalcy looked like, they can work their way back there.
There is no hope for Gaza. If I was brain switched with a Gazan I would not bring children into the prison camp of terror and starvation that I lived in. I realized after I mentioned Ukraine (which I'm not even going to touch how messed up that reasoning is) that I should have just focused on pointing out the rhetorical sleight of hand you tried by switching from "genocide would be a kindness" to "shouldn't have kids". I'd prefer you apologize for saying something so messed up and unacceptable, I'd understand if you just shut up and pretended like it didn't happen, I really don't want you to keep trying to rationalize it. I'd like you to apologize too but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for one. Having kids in Gaza is cruel to the kids. There are genetic conditions that I would have aborted for in the US due to quality of life concerns that offer substantially better quality of life than the children of Gaza can offer for their children. Gaza's population has been experiencing extreme exponential growth for decades and the scale of the tragedy has been growing with the population. This is not getting better. Adding a million children to the place where the bombs are falling is not making things better. Not sure for what, but I'd consider it?
You aren't using the same phrasing I took issue with because you know you fucked up. That'll have to be good enough for me.
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United States42249 Posts
On May 08 2025 09:22 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 09:17 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 09:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:54 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:40 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:25 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:19 WombaT wrote:On May 08 2025 08:04 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Hamas aren't a product of their environment, their environment is a product of Hamas. Jordan is an example of a Palestinian state that had different leadership. The current war with Israel is still going on because Hamas won't leave power and them remaining in power is a dealbreaker to many Israeli politicians.
Gaza is the way it is primarily because of Hamas. It didn't have to be. We shouldn't reverse our causality. Jordan isn’t Gaza. But yes point taken about historical off-ramps, and plenty being missed. At this juncture it’s rather difficult to envisage much changing at all, even if Hamas get turfed out. The population aren’t going to become all about coexistence peaceniks after these last few years especially. + Show Spoiler +Gaza wasn't Gaza before it was. Palestinians are capable of living normal lives everywhere that isn't run by Iranian terrorist proxies. Jordan, Syria, Israel etc. This isn't something organic that grew out of Palestinians, this was done to them.
But yes, it doesn't actually matter, nothing is getting fixed. Fucked and getting more fucked each year. Traumatized kids having traumatized kids. Median age of 17. Putting birth control in the drinking water would simultaneously be genocidal and a kindness. Oof... That's probably not acceptable to say about any group of people under any circumstances + Show Spoiler +I'm not going to do it. Fortunately nobody is requiring me to make impossible decisions about Gaza. It's completely reasonable to say that some people shouldn't have kids. + Show Spoiler + People who can't provide for them, for example, shouldn't have kids. People who live in an area that doesn't have food stability and routinely suffers devastating famines that leave kids starving to death. People in live in areas with ongoing civil wars where children are tortured and raped and forced to become child soldiers. + Show Spoiler +People who are married to their cousins. People who have severe developmental disabilities living in a group home with others who have severe developmental disabilities who keep fucking.
Lots of people shouldn't have kids. That's completely fine to say. Fucking Elon should stop having kids until he gets more involved in parenting the ones he has.
What isn't fine is to forcibly sterilize people. The state has a long history of fucking it up whenever they cross that line. There's no reasonable way to use that power and so they shouldn't use that power.
It's not in any way contradictory to recognize that these two things can be true.
Gaza should not be sterilized because forced sterilization is abominable.
Two 14 year old first cousins living in Gaza with no home, no food supply, no education, no income, and no hope shouldn't have a third child in addition to the two they already have.
Trying to make a public policy that avoids both outcomes is difficult but also not my job. Would that apply to Ukrainians, particularly in the East? + Show Spoiler +If someone lived in Mariupol in 2020 for example I would probably recommend against them having kids. But no, Eastern Ukraine isn't even 1% as bad as Gaza. If Eastern Ukraine was a pregnant mother who wouldn't stop smoking during the pregnancy then Gaza is a pregnant mother who mixes her daily heroin with thalidomide. I can say that a pregnant mother who mixes her daily heroin with thalidomide shouldn't have kids without that being applicable to someone who smokes while pregnant. + Show Spoiler +Gaza is a more uniquely awful scenario because of how bad it is and because it can't and won't get better, it just gets worse every year. With the Mariupol example they can move to somewhere where the Russians are less likely to herd all the children into an opera house and then destroy it with them inside. So your kids aren't certain to die. And Ukraine can feed itself. Ukrainians have a hope for a normal life for their children, they remember what normalcy looked like, they can work their way back there.
There is no hope for Gaza. If I was brain switched with a Gazan I would not bring children into the prison camp of terror and starvation that I lived in. I realized after I mentioned Ukraine (which I'm not even going to touch how messed up that reasoning is) that I should have just focused on pointing out the rhetorical sleight of hand you tried by switching from "genocide would be a kindness" to "shouldn't have kids". I'd prefer you apologize for saying something so messed up and unacceptable, I'd understand if you just shut up and pretended like it didn't happen, I really don't want you to keep trying to rationalize it. I'd like you to apologize too but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for one. Having kids in Gaza is cruel to the kids. There are genetic conditions that I would have aborted for in the US due to quality of life concerns that offer substantially better quality of life than the children of Gaza can offer for their children. Gaza's population has been experiencing extreme exponential growth for decades and the scale of the tragedy has been growing with the population. This is not getting better. Adding a million children to the place where the bombs are falling is not making things better. Not sure for what, but I'd consider it? You aren't using the same phrasing I took issue with because you know you fucked up. That'll have to be good enough for me.
You're not making sense because you know you fucked up. That'll have to be good enough for me.
Putting birth control in the prison camp water would be a kindness to the children who would have otherwise been born into the prison camp where the bombs fall and there isn't enough food. I'm not going to do it, I have no power to do it, and there are a host of other ethical concerns over it. It's not something I'm arguing should happen. I'm simply stating that adding more children to the prison camp is unkind to the children. A child not being born at all is preferable to a child being born into Gaza.
If you want to argue the inverse, that Gaza should have more children living in it, feel free to go ahead. Neither of us are in charge of the fertility of Gaza so it's really all academic.
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On May 08 2025 09:25 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 09:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 09:17 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 09:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:54 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:40 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:25 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:19 WombaT wrote:
[quote]
Jordan isn’t Gaza.
But yes point taken about historical off-ramps, and plenty being missed.
At this juncture it’s rather difficult to envisage much changing at all, even if Hamas get turfed out. The population aren’t going to become all about coexistence peaceniks after these last few years especially. + Show Spoiler +Gaza wasn't Gaza before it was. Palestinians are capable of living normal lives everywhere that isn't run by Iranian terrorist proxies. Jordan, Syria, Israel etc. This isn't something organic that grew out of Palestinians, this was done to them.
But yes, it doesn't actually matter, nothing is getting fixed. Fucked and getting more fucked each year. Traumatized kids having traumatized kids. Median age of 17. Putting birth control in the drinking water would simultaneously be genocidal and a kindness. Oof... That's probably not acceptable to say about any group of people under any circumstances + Show Spoiler +I'm not going to do it. Fortunately nobody is requiring me to make impossible decisions about Gaza. It's completely reasonable to say that some people shouldn't have kids. + Show Spoiler + People who can't provide for them, for example, shouldn't have kids. People who live in an area that doesn't have food stability and routinely suffers devastating famines that leave kids starving to death. People in live in areas with ongoing civil wars where children are tortured and raped and forced to become child soldiers. + Show Spoiler +People who are married to their cousins. People who have severe developmental disabilities living in a group home with others who have severe developmental disabilities who keep fucking.
Lots of people shouldn't have kids. That's completely fine to say. Fucking Elon should stop having kids until he gets more involved in parenting the ones he has.
What isn't fine is to forcibly sterilize people. The state has a long history of fucking it up whenever they cross that line. There's no reasonable way to use that power and so they shouldn't use that power.
It's not in any way contradictory to recognize that these two things can be true.
Gaza should not be sterilized because forced sterilization is abominable.
Two 14 year old first cousins living in Gaza with no home, no food supply, no education, no income, and no hope shouldn't have a third child in addition to the two they already have.
Trying to make a public policy that avoids both outcomes is difficult but also not my job. Would that apply to Ukrainians, particularly in the East? + Show Spoiler +If someone lived in Mariupol in 2020 for example I would probably recommend against them having kids. But no, Eastern Ukraine isn't even 1% as bad as Gaza. If Eastern Ukraine was a pregnant mother who wouldn't stop smoking during the pregnancy then Gaza is a pregnant mother who mixes her daily heroin with thalidomide. I can say that a pregnant mother who mixes her daily heroin with thalidomide shouldn't have kids without that being applicable to someone who smokes while pregnant. + Show Spoiler +Gaza is a more uniquely awful scenario because of how bad it is and because it can't and won't get better, it just gets worse every year. With the Mariupol example they can move to somewhere where the Russians are less likely to herd all the children into an opera house and then destroy it with them inside. So your kids aren't certain to die. And Ukraine can feed itself. Ukrainians have a hope for a normal life for their children, they remember what normalcy looked like, they can work their way back there.
There is no hope for Gaza. If I was brain switched with a Gazan I would not bring children into the prison camp of terror and starvation that I lived in. I realized after I mentioned Ukraine (which I'm not even going to touch how messed up that reasoning is) that I should have just focused on pointing out the rhetorical sleight of hand you tried by switching from "genocide would be a kindness" to "shouldn't have kids". I'd prefer you apologize for saying something so messed up and unacceptable, I'd understand if you just shut up and pretended like it didn't happen, I really don't want you to keep trying to rationalize it. I'd like you to apologize too but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for one. Having kids in Gaza is cruel to the kids. There are genetic conditions that I would have aborted for in the US due to quality of life concerns that offer substantially better quality of life than the children of Gaza can offer for their children. Gaza's population has been experiencing extreme exponential growth for decades and the scale of the tragedy has been growing with the population. This is not getting better. Adding a million children to the place where the bombs are falling is not making things better. Not sure for what, but I'd consider it? You aren't using the same phrasing I took issue with because you know you fucked up. That'll have to be good enough for me. + Show Spoiler +You're not making sense because you know you fucked up. That'll have to be good enough for me. Putting birth control in the prison camp water would be a kindness + Show Spoiler +to the children who would have otherwise been born into the prison camp where the bombs fall and there isn't enough food. I'm not going to do it, I have no power to do it + Show Spoiler +, and there are a host of other ethical concerns over it. It's not something I'm arguing should happen. I'm simply stating that adding more children to the prison camp is unkind to the children. A child not being born at all is preferable to a child being born into Gaza.
If you want to argue the inverse, that Gaza should have more children living in it, feel free to go ahead. Neither of us are in charge of the fertility of Gaza so it's really all academic.
Israel has the power to do that.
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United States42249 Posts
On May 08 2025 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 09:25 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 09:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 09:17 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 09:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:54 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:40 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:25 KwarK wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +Gaza wasn't Gaza before it was. Palestinians are capable of living normal lives everywhere that isn't run by Iranian terrorist proxies. Jordan, Syria, Israel etc. This isn't something organic that grew out of Palestinians, this was done to them.
But yes, it doesn't actually matter, nothing is getting fixed. Fucked and getting more fucked each year. Traumatized kids having traumatized kids. Median age of 17. Putting birth control in the drinking water would simultaneously be genocidal and a kindness. Oof... That's probably not acceptable to say about any group of people under any circumstances + Show Spoiler +I'm not going to do it. Fortunately nobody is requiring me to make impossible decisions about Gaza. It's completely reasonable to say that some people shouldn't have kids. + Show Spoiler + People who can't provide for them, for example, shouldn't have kids. People who live in an area that doesn't have food stability and routinely suffers devastating famines that leave kids starving to death. People in live in areas with ongoing civil wars where children are tortured and raped and forced to become child soldiers. + Show Spoiler +People who are married to their cousins. People who have severe developmental disabilities living in a group home with others who have severe developmental disabilities who keep fucking.
Lots of people shouldn't have kids. That's completely fine to say. Fucking Elon should stop having kids until he gets more involved in parenting the ones he has.
What isn't fine is to forcibly sterilize people. The state has a long history of fucking it up whenever they cross that line. There's no reasonable way to use that power and so they shouldn't use that power.
It's not in any way contradictory to recognize that these two things can be true.
Gaza should not be sterilized because forced sterilization is abominable.
Two 14 year old first cousins living in Gaza with no home, no food supply, no education, no income, and no hope shouldn't have a third child in addition to the two they already have.
Trying to make a public policy that avoids both outcomes is difficult but also not my job. Would that apply to Ukrainians, particularly in the East? + Show Spoiler +If someone lived in Mariupol in 2020 for example I would probably recommend against them having kids. But no, Eastern Ukraine isn't even 1% as bad as Gaza. If Eastern Ukraine was a pregnant mother who wouldn't stop smoking during the pregnancy then Gaza is a pregnant mother who mixes her daily heroin with thalidomide. I can say that a pregnant mother who mixes her daily heroin with thalidomide shouldn't have kids without that being applicable to someone who smokes while pregnant. + Show Spoiler +Gaza is a more uniquely awful scenario because of how bad it is and because it can't and won't get better, it just gets worse every year. With the Mariupol example they can move to somewhere where the Russians are less likely to herd all the children into an opera house and then destroy it with them inside. So your kids aren't certain to die. And Ukraine can feed itself. Ukrainians have a hope for a normal life for their children, they remember what normalcy looked like, they can work their way back there.
There is no hope for Gaza. If I was brain switched with a Gazan I would not bring children into the prison camp of terror and starvation that I lived in. I realized after I mentioned Ukraine (which I'm not even going to touch how messed up that reasoning is) that I should have just focused on pointing out the rhetorical sleight of hand you tried by switching from "genocide would be a kindness" to "shouldn't have kids". I'd prefer you apologize for saying something so messed up and unacceptable, I'd understand if you just shut up and pretended like it didn't happen, I really don't want you to keep trying to rationalize it. I'd like you to apologize too but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for one. Having kids in Gaza is cruel to the kids. There are genetic conditions that I would have aborted for in the US due to quality of life concerns that offer substantially better quality of life than the children of Gaza can offer for their children. Gaza's population has been experiencing extreme exponential growth for decades and the scale of the tragedy has been growing with the population. This is not getting better. Adding a million children to the place where the bombs are falling is not making things better. Not sure for what, but I'd consider it? You aren't using the same phrasing I took issue with because you know you fucked up. That'll have to be good enough for me. + Show Spoiler +You're not making sense because you know you fucked up. That'll have to be good enough for me. Putting birth control in the prison camp water would be a kindness + Show Spoiler +to the children who would have otherwise been born into the prison camp where the bombs fall and there isn't enough food. I'm not going to do it, I have no power to do it + Show Spoiler +, and there are a host of other ethical concerns over it. It's not something I'm arguing should happen. I'm simply stating that adding more children to the prison camp is unkind to the children. A child not being born at all is preferable to a child being born into Gaza.
If you want to argue the inverse, that Gaza should have more children living in it, feel free to go ahead. Neither of us are in charge of the fertility of Gaza so it's really all academic. Israel does.
And they shouldn’t do it. When I said it would be genocidal to put birth control in the drinking water I didn’t mean the good kind of genocidal. I meant the kind of thing that countries shouldn’t do. Genocidal meant bad there. Hopefully that clears things up for you.
The context of the comment was that the intergenerational trauma and general conditions in Gaza were so hopelessly fucked that preventing more kids from being born into it would be a kindness. I was using the example of birth control in the water, which I condemned as genocidal, to illustrate just how hopelessly fucked it all is. This is creating more human misery than literal genocide. Gaza is a misery farm.
I’m against the misery farm.
Not having kids is particularly appropriate comparison here because of the intrinsic link between children and hope for the future. You have children because you want to create, to build something that lasts, to leave a legacy. Conditions may be temporarily bad but you can hope for a better life for the next generation. There is no hope for Gazans. Things will not be better for the children. A kinder outcome than the current trajectory would be that it all just ends with the natural death of the last of the existing Gazans in a hundred years or so without starvation, Malthusian collapse, or Israeli genocide. Not a good outcome, but kinder than the one we’re going to see.
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On May 08 2025 09:38 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 09:25 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 09:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 09:17 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 09:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:54 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 08 2025 08:40 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Oof...
That's probably not acceptable to say about any group of people under any circumstances + Show Spoiler +I'm not going to do it. Fortunately nobody is requiring me to make impossible decisions about Gaza. It's completely reasonable to say that some people shouldn't have kids. + Show Spoiler + People who can't provide for them, for example, shouldn't have kids. People who live in an area that doesn't have food stability and routinely suffers devastating famines that leave kids starving to death. People in live in areas with ongoing civil wars where children are tortured and raped and forced to become child soldiers. + Show Spoiler +People who are married to their cousins. People who have severe developmental disabilities living in a group home with others who have severe developmental disabilities who keep fucking.
Lots of people shouldn't have kids. That's completely fine to say. Fucking Elon should stop having kids until he gets more involved in parenting the ones he has.
What isn't fine is to forcibly sterilize people. The state has a long history of fucking it up whenever they cross that line. There's no reasonable way to use that power and so they shouldn't use that power.
It's not in any way contradictory to recognize that these two things can be true.
Gaza should not be sterilized because forced sterilization is abominable.
Two 14 year old first cousins living in Gaza with no home, no food supply, no education, no income, and no hope shouldn't have a third child in addition to the two they already have.
Trying to make a public policy that avoids both outcomes is difficult but also not my job. Would that apply to Ukrainians, particularly in the East? + Show Spoiler +If someone lived in Mariupol in 2020 for example I would probably recommend against them having kids. But no, Eastern Ukraine isn't even 1% as bad as Gaza. If Eastern Ukraine was a pregnant mother who wouldn't stop smoking during the pregnancy then Gaza is a pregnant mother who mixes her daily heroin with thalidomide. I can say that a pregnant mother who mixes her daily heroin with thalidomide shouldn't have kids without that being applicable to someone who smokes while pregnant. + Show Spoiler +Gaza is a more uniquely awful scenario because of how bad it is and because it can't and won't get better, it just gets worse every year. With the Mariupol example they can move to somewhere where the Russians are less likely to herd all the children into an opera house and then destroy it with them inside. So your kids aren't certain to die. And Ukraine can feed itself. Ukrainians have a hope for a normal life for their children, they remember what normalcy looked like, they can work their way back there.
There is no hope for Gaza. If I was brain switched with a Gazan I would not bring children into the prison camp of terror and starvation that I lived in. I realized after I mentioned Ukraine (which I'm not even going to touch how messed up that reasoning is) that I should have just focused on pointing out the rhetorical sleight of hand you tried by switching from "genocide would be a kindness" to "shouldn't have kids". I'd prefer you apologize for saying something so messed up and unacceptable, I'd understand if you just shut up and pretended like it didn't happen, I really don't want you to keep trying to rationalize it. I'd like you to apologize too but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for one. Having kids in Gaza is cruel to the kids. There are genetic conditions that I would have aborted for in the US due to quality of life concerns that offer substantially better quality of life than the children of Gaza can offer for their children. Gaza's population has been experiencing extreme exponential growth for decades and the scale of the tragedy has been growing with the population. This is not getting better. Adding a million children to the place where the bombs are falling is not making things better. Not sure for what, but I'd consider it? You aren't using the same phrasing I took issue with because you know you fucked up. That'll have to be good enough for me. + Show Spoiler +You're not making sense because you know you fucked up. That'll have to be good enough for me. Putting birth control in the prison camp water would be a kindness + Show Spoiler +to the children who would have otherwise been born into the prison camp where the bombs fall and there isn't enough food. I'm not going to do it, I have no power to do it + Show Spoiler +, and there are a host of other ethical concerns over it. It's not something I'm arguing should happen. I'm simply stating that adding more children to the prison camp is unkind to the children. A child not being born at all is preferable to a child being born into Gaza.
If you want to argue the inverse, that Gaza should have more children living in it, feel free to go ahead. Neither of us are in charge of the fertility of Gaza so it's really all academic. Israel does. And they shouldn’t do it. + Show Spoiler +When I said it would be genocidal to put birth control in the drinking water I didn’t mean the good kind of genocidal. I meant the kind of thing that countries shouldn’t do. Genocidal meant bad there. Hopefully that clears things up for you.
The context of the comment was that the intergenerational trauma and general conditions in Gaza were so hopelessly fucked that preventing more kids from being born into it would be a kindness. I was using the example of birth control in the water, which I condemned as genocidal, to illustrate just how hopelessly fucked it all is. This is creating more human misery than literal genocide. Gaza is a misery farm.
I’m against the misery farm.
The problem was you saying the genocide would be "a kindness" if they someone(?) did.
There's no version of reality where genociding Palestinians in Gaza is "a kindness" and it was wrong for you to say it was. That's the end of it.
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United States42249 Posts
On May 08 2025 09:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
There's no version of reality where genociding Palestinians in Gaza is "a kindness"
That's literally my point. That's how the expression works.
You're doing the thing you always do where you intentionally misinterpret my comments to mean something completely different and then once I walk you through exactly what was meant and why it's not at all what you're claiming you just double down.
When someone says A is so bad that B would be a kindness and B is awful then that is a rhetorical device used to explain just how bad A is. They're not saying that B is good.
This is a very common turn of phrase and you're pretending to have never seen it before. Insisting that you're somehow outraged at the use of the word kindness and pretending that I'm pro B.
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On May 08 2025 07:51 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 07:48 Acrofales wrote:On May 08 2025 07:43 Billyboy wrote:On May 08 2025 07:36 Nebuchad wrote:
Every single time a liberal says a situation is complex and you press them on, they describe the most incredibly simple thing you've ever heard. Jimmi has hundreds of posts in this thread going "Hamas are not good guys!" and "You're too mean to Israel", he apparently cannot distinguish between criticism of Israel and criticism of Jews, but every few posts he will also insist that he's decyphering some complex equation like he's a scholar. Hamas are not good guys, they are really awful guys. It is very strange to me that you claim to care about LGBTQ, women and a whole bunch of other causes these guys absolutely hate and shit on. It is also really disgusting to go back to Oct 7th and watch you discuss how evil Israel is while innocent civilians are still being slaughtered. It didn't used to be clear to me why you wouldn't discuss anything in good faith on this thread, but is very clear now. You can not be honest with yourself let alone me. So if I preface it with "Hamas are not the good guys and did a bunch of heinous shit", I can follow it with criticism of Israel's response, or in fact any of their actions over the past 30-odd years at least? Or does that still make me an anti-Semite? Let's try! Hamas is really heinous and should be abolished, but the way Israel is going about it with their ethnic cleansing of Gaza is even worse.Bring it, Bimmy! Or should I call you Jilly? I totally agree with this, and have openly and repeatedly agreed with it. The reason you don't think I have is because instead of reading my posts you have been reading the strawmans of people like Neb who has done nothing but discussed in bad faith. Yes I nuked my account. I was harassed in PMs and likely now will be again. At least I'm more careful to not give out personal information now. Thanks guys!
Don't worry. My eyes glaze over and I scroll past 95% of everything you and Neb write at each other. My interest was piqued when you decided to call Wombat, and "any number of people in this thread" an anti-Semite as well. For doing nothing much more than pointing out how ridiculous your argument was in the first place.
If you agree with me that Israel's response has been and is more heinous still than Hamas' atrocities, then presumably you "hate" some Israelis too? How many of those that you hate are Jews?
Or maybe we can agree that condemning Israel for doing heinous shit doesn't make one an anti-Semite and put this whole idiotic argument to rest. If you want to attack Neb for being an anti-Semite, find him taking issue with things Jews do, rather than things the state of Israel does to Palestinians... and for God's sake, leave "any number of people in this thread" out of your little hissyfit.
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Ontopic, we were discussing European countries' actions and I was pleasantly surprised by the news this morning:
The Dutch government, seen as one of Israel’s most loyal allies in the European Union, is calling for an urgent review of the EU Israel association agreement, the basis for the EU-Israeli free trade agreement, the Dutch foreign minister Caspar Veldkamp told the Guardian.
Veldkamp described the Israeli ban on the supply of aid into Gaza as “catastrophic, truly dismal” and in clear breach of international humanitarian law.
He has written to the head of the European Union foreign service Kaja Kallas requesting an urgent review, saying he believes Israel is now in breach of the association agreement.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/07/netherlands-urges-review-of-eu-israel-trade-deal-over-catastrophic-gaza-aid-block
That this is coming from the Dutch government, of all people, means there may be a real shift in the EU's overall stance. Either that, or the Dutch government is going through the umpteenth coalition crisis when Wilders finds out and gets upset?
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Northern Ireland24378 Posts
On May 08 2025 15:27 Acrofales wrote:Ontopic, we were discussing European countries' actions and I was pleasantly surprised by the news this morning: Show nested quote +The Dutch government, seen as one of Israel’s most loyal allies in the European Union, is calling for an urgent review of the EU Israel association agreement, the basis for the EU-Israeli free trade agreement, the Dutch foreign minister Caspar Veldkamp told the Guardian.
Veldkamp described the Israeli ban on the supply of aid into Gaza as “catastrophic, truly dismal” and in clear breach of international humanitarian law.
He has written to the head of the European Union foreign service Kaja Kallas requesting an urgent review, saying he believes Israel is now in breach of the association agreement. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/07/netherlands-urges-review-of-eu-israel-trade-deal-over-catastrophic-gaza-aid-blockThat this is coming from the Dutch government, of all people, means there may be a real shift in the EU's overall stance. Either that, or the Dutch government is going through the umpteenth coalition crisis when Wilders finds out and gets upset?
I like this move, given it’s an agreement with conditions to begin with. Whether that makes it something that gains traction is another thing entirely of course.
By that I mean, versus other measures, there’s less scope for ‘yeah but what about x country, why are you singling out Israel?’ Well, do those countries have such a deal? If not, then it’s just removing preferential treatment
In a similar vein, I really think UEFA should reconsider letting Israel compete in European competitions, Eurovision the same. I have grappled and sympathised with the former especially, given states just outright not recognising Israel, and plenty of blameless folk being cut off from playing international football as a result. At this particular juncture it feels very difficult to justify that olive branch being extended.
I think more would be desirable, but I think some of this is more within the realm of realistic, or doable.
When it gets to things like arms sales, and each European nation having its own entanglements and markets, yeah it would be nice but tricky. Our firms do plenty of business with Saudi Arabia for example, an instance where whataboutery is pretty applicable. Given how friendly to Israel this incarnation of Labour is, I think either doing 2/2, or 0/2 are more likely than singling out Israel, and one of those options is far more likely than the other.
As I believe it was Billy has mentioned, Canada/Canadian firms made the choice to only supply defensive systems, for the Iron Dome etc. I think that seems a reasonable compromise, given Israel does face genuine security threats, but it doesn’t augment their ability to inflict harm.
I do think Europe has to focus more on cultural and other economic ostracisation other than arms mind. The latter yeah, great it removes direct complicity, I’m not sure it’ll actually do a whole lot functionally.
In that hypothetical in which that does come to pass, it can’t just be me who envisions the US just increasing its military aid to compensate for every European cut. Now there will be specialist gear that can’t necessarily be immediately replaced, I recognise that.
Now, I will stress I think it’s still worth doing anyway, however I can very much see that.
You gotta make Israelis feel hated, and for that to be transferred to the governments whose policies created those conditions. You need to have that change come from within, given the US is such a staunch, borderline unconditional ally.
It’s worked before, and in states that weren’t nearly as democratically functional as Israel is. In theory, that squeeze should work even better here, however of course there is always that risk that pressure leads to resentment and a doubling down as well.
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EPT
