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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On May 07 2025 23:52 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2025 23:06 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 21:06 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 10:22 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 10:10 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2025 10:07 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2025 09:59 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 09:35 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2025 09:32 Billyboy wrote:[quote] "Could either of you two clowns please post something specific in what I've posted here that makes it look like I'm talking about Jews, so that we can see the disconnect in action?" Feel free to look into Israeli politics, who's in Netanyahu's coalition, what they believe and who supports them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-seventh_government_of_Israel Can you think of a difference between hating Jews and hating people who support a specific government and specific policies and happen to be majority Jewish? I've noticed that you're not a fan of Russia, should I conclude that you hate white people or the orthodox church? I do openly hate the leadership of the Russian orthodox church, they remind me of the evil popes supporting the crusades. But I don't have hatred of Russian people in general, which is another unpopular opinion with a different group of people. I have a pretty strong dislike for most religious extremists and people who hate. So, based on this explanation, you have no problem differentiating between hating people for their identity and hating people for their political opinions? Excellent. The two are inextricably tied in Israel. Whereas in China and Russia they are not. These are not the owns you two think they are. So, just to be clear, according to you if someone has a jewish identity, they support Netanyahu? And I'm the one who is supposed to be antisemitic? Another swing and a miss! Also you used that word not me. There is a reason when I talk about Gaza I talk about Hamas not Gazans, it is really not a big ask to direct your hate at the minority of Israelis who enable this level of violence. It is even less writing to write IDF, but for some reason you must use Israel. For those of you wondering why no one but those in complete lock step respond in this thread is because any discussion is met with such hate. Imagine what would happen if a a pro Israel person was here, you're brutal to Israelis are not all evil people. Do we have to imagine? Thanks for proving my point. My point is this is not a hypothetical, we have had, and indeed still have such voices, and they’re broadly not attacked in that manner. You yourself are obviously pro-Israel, absolutely not a zealot but I thini that’s broadly a fair observation. Or perhaps a better example is the Ukraine/Russia thread. There’s plenty of civility and hostility there, but it’s based on expressed views not simply being Russian or not. Indeed the individual who garners the most hostile pushback is not Russian. There’s plenty of Russian users going about their day unmolested on here. Your hypothetical has already occurred, and it hasn’t played out the way you’re framing it. To reiterate, these things are commonplace elsewhere, and if I saw them here I’d challenge them. If Neb said ‘all Jews’, or whatever it is. Instead it’s you saying ‘well actually this is what Neb means’ when he said no such thing. So we enter a frustrating and pointless loop. Incidentally, it’s also a dangerous playbook to take out IMO. Which I have pointed out in the past. Plenty make the transition from anti-Israel/sympathetic to Palestine to being actually anti-Semitic, if this play is used too liberally. A real self-fulfilling prophecy there. Not, I don’t think a danger for Liquidians here or anything, but it does absolutely happen, it’s a method of argumentation I’d absolutely avoid like the plague.
To you and many on the thread not hating Israel and thinking it is the most evil country in the world is being pro Israel. And that is a strange position.
On May 08 2025 00:02 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2025 23:09 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 22:04 Nebuchad wrote:Watch out guys, Jimmi thinks that every Chinese person is building colonies in Bhutan On November 14 2024 03:30 Billyboy wrote:
As long as Bibi stays in power and needs the even further right to bolster his support, I agree. They are not quite the government subsidized colonies like China is building in Bhutan, but similar idea. Maybe you are so sensitive because the only difference between your position and an anti-Semites position is the word Israel or Jew. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/05/asia/china-bhutan-border-dst-intl-hnk/index.htmlThere is obviously nuance you actively avoid thinking about. When you get into the conspiracy crap about Israel always planning genocide. Compared to say Israel dropping a bomb. Because words have meaning. One denotes a state, the other an ethnic group, not all of whom reside in or even agree with said state. Neither is the position even the same anyway. ‘Israel should stop doing shitty things’ may absolutely be shared by the anti-Semite, but they add a whole shitload of other stuff on top that Neb hasn’t expressed. This thing you’re doing isn’t nuance, it’s not adding depth or complexity to the conversation, it’s nitpicking. Often erroneous nitpicking that then necessitates re-litigating initial points over and over in different ways.
What are the differences between any number of peoples positions on Israel in this thread and anti-Semites?
I of course know words mean things, this is why I insert the word Jew so it is not as easy and makes people uncomfortable to say awful things.
If people were talking about how the Palestinians were rapists and murderers would that upset you more than if they said it of Hamas? Is it that hard to change the words people use? As a leftist don't you do it regularly for basically every other group?
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On May 08 2025 02:48 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2025 23:29 Gorsameth wrote:On May 07 2025 23:09 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 22:04 Nebuchad wrote:Watch out guys, Jimmi thinks that every Chinese person is building colonies in Bhutan On November 14 2024 03:30 Billyboy wrote:
As long as Bibi stays in power and needs the even further right to bolster his support, I agree. They are not quite the government subsidized colonies like China is building in Bhutan, but similar idea. Maybe you are so sensitive because the only difference between your position and an anti-Semites position is the word Israel or Jew. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/05/asia/china-bhutan-border-dst-intl-hnk/index.htmlThere is obviously nuance you actively avoid thinking about. When you get into the conspiracy crap about Israel always planning genocide. Compared to say Israel dropping a bomb. So you believe Israel should be immune to criticism because you cannot criticize Jews and Israel=Jews? Seems a perfect position to allow Israel to do whatever it wants, including ethic cleansings. Of course not, I myself criticize them, so that would be very hypocritical. I just don't delve into the conspiracy theories, such as, if we don't stop Israel now they will take x,y,z next.
If only there was some recent piece of news we could cite that would make this statement look incredibly stupid.
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Northern Ireland24378 Posts
On May 08 2025 02:49 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2025 23:52 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 23:06 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 21:06 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 10:22 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 10:10 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2025 10:07 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2025 09:59 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 09:35 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Can you think of a difference between hating Jews and hating people who support a specific government and specific policies and happen to be majority Jewish? I've noticed that you're not a fan of Russia, should I conclude that you hate white people or the orthodox church? I do openly hate the leadership of the Russian orthodox church, they remind me of the evil popes supporting the crusades. But I don't have hatred of Russian people in general, which is another unpopular opinion with a different group of people. I have a pretty strong dislike for most religious extremists and people who hate. So, based on this explanation, you have no problem differentiating between hating people for their identity and hating people for their political opinions? Excellent. The two are inextricably tied in Israel. Whereas in China and Russia they are not. These are not the owns you two think they are. So, just to be clear, according to you if someone has a jewish identity, they support Netanyahu? And I'm the one who is supposed to be antisemitic? Another swing and a miss! Also you used that word not me. There is a reason when I talk about Gaza I talk about Hamas not Gazans, it is really not a big ask to direct your hate at the minority of Israelis who enable this level of violence. It is even less writing to write IDF, but for some reason you must use Israel. For those of you wondering why no one but those in complete lock step respond in this thread is because any discussion is met with such hate. Imagine what would happen if a a pro Israel person was here, you're brutal to Israelis are not all evil people. Do we have to imagine? Thanks for proving my point. My point is this is not a hypothetical, we have had, and indeed still have such voices, and they’re broadly not attacked in that manner. You yourself are obviously pro-Israel, absolutely not a zealot but I thini that’s broadly a fair observation. Or perhaps a better example is the Ukraine/Russia thread. There’s plenty of civility and hostility there, but it’s based on expressed views not simply being Russian or not. Indeed the individual who garners the most hostile pushback is not Russian. There’s plenty of Russian users going about their day unmolested on here. Your hypothetical has already occurred, and it hasn’t played out the way you’re framing it. To reiterate, these things are commonplace elsewhere, and if I saw them here I’d challenge them. If Neb said ‘all Jews’, or whatever it is. Instead it’s you saying ‘well actually this is what Neb means’ when he said no such thing. So we enter a frustrating and pointless loop. Incidentally, it’s also a dangerous playbook to take out IMO. Which I have pointed out in the past. Plenty make the transition from anti-Israel/sympathetic to Palestine to being actually anti-Semitic, if this play is used too liberally. A real self-fulfilling prophecy there. Not, I don’t think a danger for Liquidians here or anything, but it does absolutely happen, it’s a method of argumentation I’d absolutely avoid like the plague. To you and many on the thread not hating Israel and thinking it is the most evil country in the world is being pro Israel. And that is a strange position. Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 00:02 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 23:09 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 22:04 Nebuchad wrote:Watch out guys, Jimmi thinks that every Chinese person is building colonies in Bhutan On November 14 2024 03:30 Billyboy wrote:
As long as Bibi stays in power and needs the even further right to bolster his support, I agree. They are not quite the government subsidized colonies like China is building in Bhutan, but similar idea. Maybe you are so sensitive because the only difference between your position and an anti-Semites position is the word Israel or Jew. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/05/asia/china-bhutan-border-dst-intl-hnk/index.htmlThere is obviously nuance you actively avoid thinking about. When you get into the conspiracy crap about Israel always planning genocide. Compared to say Israel dropping a bomb. Because words have meaning. One denotes a state, the other an ethnic group, not all of whom reside in or even agree with said state. Neither is the position even the same anyway. ‘Israel should stop doing shitty things’ may absolutely be shared by the anti-Semite, but they add a whole shitload of other stuff on top that Neb hasn’t expressed. This thing you’re doing isn’t nuance, it’s not adding depth or complexity to the conversation, it’s nitpicking. Often erroneous nitpicking that then necessitates re-litigating initial points over and over in different ways. What are the differences between any number of peoples positions on Israel in this thread and anti-Semites? I of course know words mean things, this is why I insert the word Jew so it is not as easy and makes people uncomfortable to say awful things. If people were talking about how the Palestinians were rapists and murderers would that upset you more than if they said it of Hamas? Is it that hard to change the words people use? As a leftist don't you do it regularly for basically every other group?
No, I think continually posting various ‘whatabouts?’ and other things you consider mitigating factors, whatever in the name of Zeus this current cul-de-sac is, certainly give an impression of a bias, or a benefit of the doubt given on this topic that isn’t always extended elsewhere.
Not, I will stress to the degree that you support atrocity, you have said otherwise.
I’ll moderate my language if I consider it reasonable to do so, or purely out of politeness on occasion. I recall requesting a now-departed user to stop using the ‘Bibi’ nickname as I considered it over-familiar and image-softening. They considered it fair enough as he’s commonly known as Bibi, and kept referring to him as such. Fair enough, I can see both sides of that one.
As Norn Irish Prod Brit, this kind of language is commonplace, it doesn’t bother me. ‘The British killed civilians on Bloody Sunday (or insert other event)’ comes up plenty.
There’s plenty of generalisations about British people also made that I do consider unfair and antagonistic.
But in general I think ‘the British did x’ or ‘British policy was y’ = perfectly reasonable shorthand for actions of state or institutions.
If someone says ‘the British are x’ they’re making a claim on that whole population, and that can certainly be problematic.
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered if someone says Palestinians, or Hamas. It depends what else is said. Sure, Hamas is probably the better one here. The IRA or other groups were generally most associated with various actions here, but ‘Irish bombing campaign’ or ‘Irish terrorism’ wasn’t unheard of either.
Overall I find this current thread arc of the last few pages confusing, indeed borderline nonsensical.
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On May 08 2025 05:23 Ciaus237 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 02:48 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 23:29 Gorsameth wrote:On May 07 2025 23:09 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 22:04 Nebuchad wrote:Watch out guys, Jimmi thinks that every Chinese person is building colonies in Bhutan On November 14 2024 03:30 Billyboy wrote:
As long as Bibi stays in power and needs the even further right to bolster his support, I agree. They are not quite the government subsidized colonies like China is building in Bhutan, but similar idea. Maybe you are so sensitive because the only difference between your position and an anti-Semites position is the word Israel or Jew. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/05/asia/china-bhutan-border-dst-intl-hnk/index.htmlThere is obviously nuance you actively avoid thinking about. When you get into the conspiracy crap about Israel always planning genocide. Compared to say Israel dropping a bomb. So you believe Israel should be immune to criticism because you cannot criticize Jews and Israel=Jews? Seems a perfect position to allow Israel to do whatever it wants, including ethic cleansings. Of course not, I myself criticize them, so that would be very hypocritical. I just don't delve into the conspiracy theories, such as, if we don't stop Israel now they will take x,y,z next. If only there was some recent piece of news we could cite that would make this statement look incredibly stupid.
That does not have anything to do with the theory that after Gaza they will just continue. And it is not new that some Israeli's want to annex it, some have since the 6 day war. It is also true that they have tried to have other countries manage the territories.
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On May 08 2025 06:10 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 02:49 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 23:52 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 23:06 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 21:06 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 10:22 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 10:10 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2025 10:07 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2025 09:59 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
I do openly hate the leadership of the Russian orthodox church, they remind me of the evil popes supporting the crusades. But I don't have hatred of Russian people in general, which is another unpopular opinion with a different group of people.
I have a pretty strong dislike for most religious extremists and people who hate.
So, based on this explanation, you have no problem differentiating between hating people for their identity and hating people for their political opinions? Excellent. The two are inextricably tied in Israel. Whereas in China and Russia they are not. These are not the owns you two think they are. So, just to be clear, according to you if someone has a jewish identity, they support Netanyahu? And I'm the one who is supposed to be antisemitic? Another swing and a miss! Also you used that word not me. There is a reason when I talk about Gaza I talk about Hamas not Gazans, it is really not a big ask to direct your hate at the minority of Israelis who enable this level of violence. It is even less writing to write IDF, but for some reason you must use Israel. For those of you wondering why no one but those in complete lock step respond in this thread is because any discussion is met with such hate. Imagine what would happen if a a pro Israel person was here, you're brutal to Israelis are not all evil people. Do we have to imagine? Thanks for proving my point. My point is this is not a hypothetical, we have had, and indeed still have such voices, and they’re broadly not attacked in that manner. You yourself are obviously pro-Israel, absolutely not a zealot but I thini that’s broadly a fair observation. Or perhaps a better example is the Ukraine/Russia thread. There’s plenty of civility and hostility there, but it’s based on expressed views not simply being Russian or not. Indeed the individual who garners the most hostile pushback is not Russian. There’s plenty of Russian users going about their day unmolested on here. Your hypothetical has already occurred, and it hasn’t played out the way you’re framing it. To reiterate, these things are commonplace elsewhere, and if I saw them here I’d challenge them. If Neb said ‘all Jews’, or whatever it is. Instead it’s you saying ‘well actually this is what Neb means’ when he said no such thing. So we enter a frustrating and pointless loop. Incidentally, it’s also a dangerous playbook to take out IMO. Which I have pointed out in the past. Plenty make the transition from anti-Israel/sympathetic to Palestine to being actually anti-Semitic, if this play is used too liberally. A real self-fulfilling prophecy there. Not, I don’t think a danger for Liquidians here or anything, but it does absolutely happen, it’s a method of argumentation I’d absolutely avoid like the plague. To you and many on the thread not hating Israel and thinking it is the most evil country in the world is being pro Israel. And that is a strange position. On May 08 2025 00:02 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 23:09 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 22:04 Nebuchad wrote:Watch out guys, Jimmi thinks that every Chinese person is building colonies in Bhutan On November 14 2024 03:30 Billyboy wrote:
As long as Bibi stays in power and needs the even further right to bolster his support, I agree. They are not quite the government subsidized colonies like China is building in Bhutan, but similar idea. Maybe you are so sensitive because the only difference between your position and an anti-Semites position is the word Israel or Jew. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/05/asia/china-bhutan-border-dst-intl-hnk/index.htmlThere is obviously nuance you actively avoid thinking about. When you get into the conspiracy crap about Israel always planning genocide. Compared to say Israel dropping a bomb. Because words have meaning. One denotes a state, the other an ethnic group, not all of whom reside in or even agree with said state. Neither is the position even the same anyway. ‘Israel should stop doing shitty things’ may absolutely be shared by the anti-Semite, but they add a whole shitload of other stuff on top that Neb hasn’t expressed. This thing you’re doing isn’t nuance, it’s not adding depth or complexity to the conversation, it’s nitpicking. Often erroneous nitpicking that then necessitates re-litigating initial points over and over in different ways. What are the differences between any number of peoples positions on Israel in this thread and anti-Semites? I of course know words mean things, this is why I insert the word Jew so it is not as easy and makes people uncomfortable to say awful things. If people were talking about how the Palestinians were rapists and murderers would that upset you more than if they said it of Hamas? Is it that hard to change the words people use? As a leftist don't you do it regularly for basically every other group? No, I think continually posting various ‘whatabouts?’ and other things you consider mitigating factors, whatever in the name of Zeus this current cul-de-sac is, certainly give an impression of a bias, or a benefit of the doubt given on this topic that isn’t always extended elsewhere. Not, I will stress to the degree that you support atrocity, you have said otherwise. I’ll moderate my language if I consider it reasonable to do so, or purely out of politeness on occasion. I recall requesting a now-departed user to stop using the ‘Bibi’ nickname as I considered it over-familiar and image-softening. They considered it fair enough as he’s commonly known as Bibi, and kept referring to him as such. Fair enough, I can see both sides of that one. As Norn Irish Prod Brit, this kind of language is commonplace, it doesn’t bother me. ‘The British killed civilians on Bloody Sunday (or insert other event)’ comes up plenty. There’s plenty of generalisations about British people also made that I do consider unfair and antagonistic. But in general I think ‘the British did x’ or ‘British policy was y’ = perfectly reasonable shorthand for actions of state or institutions. If someone says ‘the British are x’ they’re making a claim on that whole population, and that can certainly be problematic. I wouldn’t be particularly bothered if someone says Palestinians, or Hamas. It depends what else is said. Sure, Hamas is probably the better one here. The IRA or other groups were generally most associated with various actions here, but ‘Irish bombing campaign’ or ‘Irish terrorism’ wasn’t unheard of either. Overall I find this current thread arc of the last few pages confusing, indeed borderline nonsensical.
I find it nonsensical as well, not sure why it keeps being pressed. But it does happen every single time someone does agree with the Israel is the evilist of all evil narrative that is popular here.
And yes I have used whataboutism, but not to lessen what Israel has done, they have killed tons of civilians. But to ask, why are people so black and white on this complex issue and no on others like it? Why is this one getting all the attention and Syria right next door is getting almost none? Hell there are people on this thread that crack jokes about the genocide on going in China while talking non stop about this far more complex situation. And there is even more of a power imbalance in that one? Is it the numbers and brutality? No, because right next door is Syria.
No one wants to discuss it for a reason also. No one wants to challenge their thoughts or take in new information, they just want to hate. So when someone challenges it, they turn their hate on them until they stop posting.
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Every single time a liberal says a situation is complex and you press them on, they describe the most incredibly simple thing you've ever heard. Jimmi has hundreds of posts in this thread going "Hamas are not good guys!" and "You're too mean to Israel", he apparently cannot distinguish between criticism of Israel and criticism of Jews, but every few posts he will also insist that he's decyphering some complex equation like he's a scholar.
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On May 08 2025 07:36 Nebuchad wrote:
Every single time a liberal says a situation is complex and you press them on, they describe the most incredibly simple thing you've ever heard. Jimmi has hundreds of posts in this thread going "Hamas are not good guys!" and "You're too mean to Israel", he apparently cannot distinguish between criticism of Israel and criticism of Jews, but every few posts he will also insist that he's decyphering some complex equation like he's a scholar.
Hamas are not good guys, they are really awful guys. It is very strange to me that you claim to care about LGBTQ, women and a whole bunch of other causes these guys absolutely hate and shit on. It is also really disgusting to go back to Oct 7th and watch you discuss how evil Israel is while innocent civilians are still being slaughtered. It didn't used to be clear to me why you wouldn't discuss anything in good faith on this thread, but is very clear now. You can not be honest with yourself let alone me.
Edit: Neb is one of the biggest reasons you will never actual discussion on this thread. Anyone who posts something he doesn't have a good answer for he just attacks them personally. Hmmm I wonder why that is?
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On May 08 2025 07:43 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 07:36 Nebuchad wrote:
Every single time a liberal says a situation is complex and you press them on, they describe the most incredibly simple thing you've ever heard. Jimmi has hundreds of posts in this thread going "Hamas are not good guys!" and "You're too mean to Israel", he apparently cannot distinguish between criticism of Israel and criticism of Jews, but every few posts he will also insist that he's decyphering some complex equation like he's a scholar. Hamas are not good guys, they are really awful guys. It is very strange to me that you claim to care about LGBTQ, women and a whole bunch of other causes these guys absolutely hate and shit on. It is also really disgusting to go back to Oct 7th and watch you discuss how evil Israel is while innocent civilians are still being slaughtered. It didn't used to be clear to me why you wouldn't discuss anything in good faith on this thread, but is very clear now. You can not be honest with yourself let alone me.
Thanks for illustrating that you do not think any of this is complex at all.
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Northern Ireland24378 Posts
On May 08 2025 07:06 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 06:10 WombaT wrote:On May 08 2025 02:49 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 23:52 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 23:06 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 21:06 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 10:22 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 10:10 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2025 10:07 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
So, based on this explanation, you have no problem differentiating between hating people for their identity and hating people for their political opinions? Excellent. The two are inextricably tied in Israel. Whereas in China and Russia they are not. These are not the owns you two think they are. So, just to be clear, according to you if someone has a jewish identity, they support Netanyahu? And I'm the one who is supposed to be antisemitic? Another swing and a miss! Also you used that word not me. There is a reason when I talk about Gaza I talk about Hamas not Gazans, it is really not a big ask to direct your hate at the minority of Israelis who enable this level of violence. It is even less writing to write IDF, but for some reason you must use Israel. For those of you wondering why no one but those in complete lock step respond in this thread is because any discussion is met with such hate. Imagine what would happen if a a pro Israel person was here, you're brutal to Israelis are not all evil people. Do we have to imagine? Thanks for proving my point. My point is this is not a hypothetical, we have had, and indeed still have such voices, and they’re broadly not attacked in that manner. You yourself are obviously pro-Israel, absolutely not a zealot but I thini that’s broadly a fair observation. Or perhaps a better example is the Ukraine/Russia thread. There’s plenty of civility and hostility there, but it’s based on expressed views not simply being Russian or not. Indeed the individual who garners the most hostile pushback is not Russian. There’s plenty of Russian users going about their day unmolested on here. Your hypothetical has already occurred, and it hasn’t played out the way you’re framing it. To reiterate, these things are commonplace elsewhere, and if I saw them here I’d challenge them. If Neb said ‘all Jews’, or whatever it is. Instead it’s you saying ‘well actually this is what Neb means’ when he said no such thing. So we enter a frustrating and pointless loop. Incidentally, it’s also a dangerous playbook to take out IMO. Which I have pointed out in the past. Plenty make the transition from anti-Israel/sympathetic to Palestine to being actually anti-Semitic, if this play is used too liberally. A real self-fulfilling prophecy there. Not, I don’t think a danger for Liquidians here or anything, but it does absolutely happen, it’s a method of argumentation I’d absolutely avoid like the plague. To you and many on the thread not hating Israel and thinking it is the most evil country in the world is being pro Israel. And that is a strange position. On May 08 2025 00:02 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 23:09 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 22:04 Nebuchad wrote:Watch out guys, Jimmi thinks that every Chinese person is building colonies in Bhutan On November 14 2024 03:30 Billyboy wrote:
As long as Bibi stays in power and needs the even further right to bolster his support, I agree. They are not quite the government subsidized colonies like China is building in Bhutan, but similar idea. Maybe you are so sensitive because the only difference between your position and an anti-Semites position is the word Israel or Jew. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/05/asia/china-bhutan-border-dst-intl-hnk/index.htmlThere is obviously nuance you actively avoid thinking about. When you get into the conspiracy crap about Israel always planning genocide. Compared to say Israel dropping a bomb. Because words have meaning. One denotes a state, the other an ethnic group, not all of whom reside in or even agree with said state. Neither is the position even the same anyway. ‘Israel should stop doing shitty things’ may absolutely be shared by the anti-Semite, but they add a whole shitload of other stuff on top that Neb hasn’t expressed. This thing you’re doing isn’t nuance, it’s not adding depth or complexity to the conversation, it’s nitpicking. Often erroneous nitpicking that then necessitates re-litigating initial points over and over in different ways. What are the differences between any number of peoples positions on Israel in this thread and anti-Semites? I of course know words mean things, this is why I insert the word Jew so it is not as easy and makes people uncomfortable to say awful things. If people were talking about how the Palestinians were rapists and murderers would that upset you more than if they said it of Hamas? Is it that hard to change the words people use? As a leftist don't you do it regularly for basically every other group? No, I think continually posting various ‘whatabouts?’ and other things you consider mitigating factors, whatever in the name of Zeus this current cul-de-sac is, certainly give an impression of a bias, or a benefit of the doubt given on this topic that isn’t always extended elsewhere. Not, I will stress to the degree that you support atrocity, you have said otherwise. I’ll moderate my language if I consider it reasonable to do so, or purely out of politeness on occasion. I recall requesting a now-departed user to stop using the ‘Bibi’ nickname as I considered it over-familiar and image-softening. They considered it fair enough as he’s commonly known as Bibi, and kept referring to him as such. Fair enough, I can see both sides of that one. As Norn Irish Prod Brit, this kind of language is commonplace, it doesn’t bother me. ‘The British killed civilians on Bloody Sunday (or insert other event)’ comes up plenty. There’s plenty of generalisations about British people also made that I do consider unfair and antagonistic. But in general I think ‘the British did x’ or ‘British policy was y’ = perfectly reasonable shorthand for actions of state or institutions. If someone says ‘the British are x’ they’re making a claim on that whole population, and that can certainly be problematic. I wouldn’t be particularly bothered if someone says Palestinians, or Hamas. It depends what else is said. Sure, Hamas is probably the better one here. The IRA or other groups were generally most associated with various actions here, but ‘Irish bombing campaign’ or ‘Irish terrorism’ wasn’t unheard of either. Overall I find this current thread arc of the last few pages confusing, indeed borderline nonsensical. I find it nonsensical as well, not sure why it keeps being pressed. But it does happen every single time someone does agree with the Israel is the evilist of all evil narrative that is popular here. And yes I have used whataboutism, but not to lessen what Israel has done, they have killed tons of civilians. But to ask, why are people so black and white on this complex issue and no on others like it? Why is this one getting all the attention and Syria right next door is getting almost none? Hell there are people on this thread that crack jokes about the genocide on going in China while talking non stop about this far more complex situation. And there is even more of a power imbalance in that one? Is it the numbers and brutality? No, because right next door is Syria. No one wants to discuss it for a reason also. No one wants to challenge their thoughts or take in new information, they just want to hate. So when someone challenges it, they turn their hate on them until they stop posting.
Who’s cracking jokes about genocide?
Some things are black and white, some things are not. We’re in the continuation of bombing civilians, displacing civilians, blockading aid and prominent members of government talking about further expansion phase.
Kinda hard to bring much nuance, much shades of grey. Which I would consider those more complicated questions of how Israelis and Palestinians can coexist, what form that would take etc.
Conversations that did happen plenty, especially in the earlier stages of the conflict and this thread, but yeah less now. Partly for 2 reasons IMO, one being some users who weren’t super au fait with the history and genesis of the conflict asking questions. Two, I think an expectation or hope among others (including anti-Israel folks) that the initial reprisals would be less deep and definitely less long-lasting. The former group are now more up to speed, and in the latter well what’s the point discussing wild hypotheticals of peace when Israel is doing the exact opposite?
The Syrian conflict got plenty of coverage in here for quite some time if memory serves.
Myself I’ve been consistently critical of Gulf States like Qatar, and especially Saudi Arabia, sometimes to the irritation of other posters. But that was restricted to threads like EWC and sports one where they intersected, there isn’t a persistent thread to engage specifically with that on.
It probably does occupy disproportionate space, but that’s just been the way things are since as long as I can remember, and much before.
Indeed I’d argue it’s precisely because of the things you mention in mitigation. It’s a liberal democracy, it’s the Greatest AllyTM. That brings a certain level of expectation people don’t have for other states
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On May 08 2025 07:43 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 07:36 Nebuchad wrote:
Every single time a liberal says a situation is complex and you press them on, they describe the most incredibly simple thing you've ever heard. Jimmi has hundreds of posts in this thread going "Hamas are not good guys!" and "You're too mean to Israel", he apparently cannot distinguish between criticism of Israel and criticism of Jews, but every few posts he will also insist that he's decyphering some complex equation like he's a scholar. Hamas are not good guys, they are really awful guys. It is very strange to me that you claim to care about LGBTQ, women and a whole bunch of other causes these guys absolutely hate and shit on. It is also really disgusting to go back to Oct 7th and watch you discuss how evil Israel is while innocent civilians are still being slaughtered. It didn't used to be clear to me why you wouldn't discuss anything in good faith on this thread, but is very clear now. You can not be honest with yourself let alone me.
So if I preface it with "Hamas are not the good guys and did a bunch of heinous shit", I can follow it with criticism of Israel's response, or in fact any of their actions over the past 30-odd years at least? Or does that still make me an anti-Semite? Let's try!
Hamas is really heinous and should be abolished, but the way Israel is going about it with their ethnic cleansing of Gaza is even worse.
Bring it, Bimmy! Or should I call you Jilly?
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On May 08 2025 07:48 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 07:43 Billyboy wrote:On May 08 2025 07:36 Nebuchad wrote:
Every single time a liberal says a situation is complex and you press them on, they describe the most incredibly simple thing you've ever heard. Jimmi has hundreds of posts in this thread going "Hamas are not good guys!" and "You're too mean to Israel", he apparently cannot distinguish between criticism of Israel and criticism of Jews, but every few posts he will also insist that he's decyphering some complex equation like he's a scholar. Hamas are not good guys, they are really awful guys. It is very strange to me that you claim to care about LGBTQ, women and a whole bunch of other causes these guys absolutely hate and shit on. It is also really disgusting to go back to Oct 7th and watch you discuss how evil Israel is while innocent civilians are still being slaughtered. It didn't used to be clear to me why you wouldn't discuss anything in good faith on this thread, but is very clear now. You can not be honest with yourself let alone me. So if I preface it with "Hamas are not the good guys and did a bunch of heinous shit", I can follow it with criticism of Israel's response, or in fact any of their actions over the past 30-odd years at least? Or does that still make me an anti-Semite? Let's try! Hamas is really heinous and should be abolished, but the way Israel is going about it with their ethnic cleansing of Gaza is even worse.Bring it, Bimmy! Or should I call you Jilly?
I totally agree with this, and have openly and repeatedly agreed with it. The reason you don't think I have is because instead of reading my posts you have been reading the strawmans of people like Neb who has done nothing but discussed in bad faith.
Yes I nuked my account. I was harassed in PMs and likely now will be again. At least I'm more careful to not give out personal information now. Thanks guys!
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Northern Ireland24378 Posts
On May 08 2025 07:43 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 07:36 Nebuchad wrote:
Every single time a liberal says a situation is complex and you press them on, they describe the most incredibly simple thing you've ever heard. Jimmi has hundreds of posts in this thread going "Hamas are not good guys!" and "You're too mean to Israel", he apparently cannot distinguish between criticism of Israel and criticism of Jews, but every few posts he will also insist that he's decyphering some complex equation like he's a scholar. Hamas are not good guys, they are really awful guys. It is very strange to me that you claim to care about LGBTQ, women and a whole bunch of other causes these guys absolutely hate and shit on. It is also really disgusting to go back to Oct 7th and watch you discuss how evil Israel is while innocent civilians are still being slaughtered. It didn't used to be clear to me why you wouldn't discuss anything in good faith on this thread, but is very clear now. You can not be honest with yourself let alone me. Edit: Neb is one of the biggest reasons you will never actual discussion on this thread. Anyone who posts something he doesn't have a good answer for he just attacks them personally. Hmmm I wonder why that is?
It’s quite simple. Bombing civilians by the tens of thousands, is worse than having social views I consider backwards.
If you remove the former from the equation, then I can get right on to criticising the latter.
The problem I’m having is I don’t recall people making the claim that Hamas are good guys, or indeed that Israel is innately the evilest of the evil and all these other things you post responses to the man of straw.
If I were to straw poll the thread I don’t think we’ll find many Hamas enthusiasts. I’d imagine they’ll fall into camp 1, that they’re a shower of evil bastards, or camp 2 that they are monsters, but monsters that will almost inevitably form given those conditions.
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United States42249 Posts
On May 08 2025 07:57 WombaT wrote:
but monsters that will almost inevitably form given those conditions.
Hamas aren't a product of their environment, their environment is a product of Hamas. Jordan is an example of a Palestinian state that had different leadership. The current war with Israel is still going on because Hamas won't leave power and them remaining in power is a dealbreaker to many Israeli politicians.
Gaza is the way it is primarily because of Hamas. It didn't have to be. We shouldn't reverse our causality.
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On May 08 2025 07:57 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 07:43 Billyboy wrote:On May 08 2025 07:36 Nebuchad wrote:
Every single time a liberal says a situation is complex and you press them on, they describe the most incredibly simple thing you've ever heard. Jimmi has hundreds of posts in this thread going "Hamas are not good guys!" and "You're too mean to Israel", he apparently cannot distinguish between criticism of Israel and criticism of Jews, but every few posts he will also insist that he's decyphering some complex equation like he's a scholar. Hamas are not good guys, they are really awful guys. It is very strange to me that you claim to care about LGBTQ, women and a whole bunch of other causes these guys absolutely hate and shit on. It is also really disgusting to go back to Oct 7th and watch you discuss how evil Israel is while innocent civilians are still being slaughtered. It didn't used to be clear to me why you wouldn't discuss anything in good faith on this thread, but is very clear now. You can not be honest with yourself let alone me. Edit: Neb is one of the biggest reasons you will never actual discussion on this thread. Anyone who posts something he doesn't have a good answer for he just attacks them personally. Hmmm I wonder why that is? It’s quite simple. Bombing civilians by the tens of thousands, is worse than having social views I consider backwards. If you remove the former from the equation, then I can get right on to criticising the latter. The problem I’m having is I don’t recall people making the claim that Hamas are good guys, or indeed that Israel is innately the evilest of the evil and all these other things you post responses to the man of straw. If I were to straw poll the thread I don’t think we’ll find many Hamas enthusiasts. I’d imagine they’ll fall into camp 1, that they’re a shower of evil bastards, or camp 2 that they are monsters, but monsters that will almost inevitably form given those conditions.
Having social views you disagree with is some serious washing of what that is. They have killed thousands and openly celebrated it, both Palestinians and Israelis, and openly talk, chant about wanting to genocide every Jew.
I'd agree mostly with your straw poll, but then once the discussion turned to what to do about it the crickets would come out.
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Northern Ireland24378 Posts
Not really cool that. Hey if Neb has suggested a desire to drive out all the Israelis forcibly I stand corrected.
If he has not, perhaps retract that.
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On May 08 2025 08:06 WombaT wrote:Not really cool that. Hey if Neb has suggested a desire to drive out all the Israelis forcibly I stand corrected. If he has not, perhaps retract that.
I promise too as long as he does the same, until then I'll also jump to conclusions based on my assumptions of his posts. But for some reason you think it is your job to hold me accountable but he and whoever else can shit on me and you have their back. I've noticed you don't enjoy it when GH pulls his shit on you, and notice I don't jump in to talk shit to you when you respond in kind? Maybe worry about you.
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Northern Ireland24378 Posts
On May 08 2025 08:04 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 07:57 WombaT wrote:
but monsters that will almost inevitably form given those conditions. Hamas aren't a product of their environment, their environment is a product of Hamas. Jordan is an example of a Palestinian state that had different leadership. The current war with Israel is still going on because Hamas won't leave power and them remaining in power is a dealbreaker to many Israeli politicians. Gaza is the way it is primarily because of Hamas. It didn't have to be. We shouldn't reverse our causality.
Jordan isn’t Gaza.
But yes point taken about historical off-ramps, and plenty being missed.
At this juncture it’s rather difficult to envisage much changing at all, even if Hamas get turfed out. The population aren’t going to become all about coexistence peaceniks after these last few years especially.
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On May 08 2025 08:19 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 08:04 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 07:57 WombaT wrote:
but monsters that will almost inevitably form given those conditions. Hamas aren't a product of their environment, their environment is a product of Hamas. Jordan is an example of a Palestinian state that had different leadership. The current war with Israel is still going on because Hamas won't leave power and them remaining in power is a dealbreaker to many Israeli politicians. Gaza is the way it is primarily because of Hamas. It didn't have to be. We shouldn't reverse our causality. Jordan isn’t Gaza. But yes point taken about historical off-ramps, and plenty being missed. At this juncture it’s rather difficult to envisage much changing at all, even if Hamas get turfed out. The population aren’t going to become all about coexistence peaceniks after these last few years especially.
Which was Hamas (Irans) goal of the attack, absolutely nothing to do with freedom or sovereignty. Netanyahu was more than willing to walk through the open door because it is in self interest of remaining in power and out of jail.
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United States42249 Posts
On May 08 2025 08:19 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 08:04 KwarK wrote:On May 08 2025 07:57 WombaT wrote:
but monsters that will almost inevitably form given those conditions. Hamas aren't a product of their environment, their environment is a product of Hamas. Jordan is an example of a Palestinian state that had different leadership. The current war with Israel is still going on because Hamas won't leave power and them remaining in power is a dealbreaker to many Israeli politicians. Gaza is the way it is primarily because of Hamas. It didn't have to be. We shouldn't reverse our causality. Jordan isn’t Gaza. But yes point taken about historical off-ramps, and plenty being missed. At this juncture it’s rather difficult to envisage much changing at all, even if Hamas get turfed out. The population aren’t going to become all about coexistence peaceniks after these last few years especially.
Gaza wasn't Gaza before it was. Palestinians are capable of living normal lives everywhere that isn't run by Iranian terrorist proxies. Jordan, Syria, Israel etc. This isn't something organic that grew out of Palestinians, this was done to them.
But yes, it doesn't actually matter, nothing is getting fixed. Fucked and getting more fucked each year. Traumatized kids having traumatized kids. Median age of 17. Putting birth control in the drinking water would simultaneously be genocidal and a kindness.
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EPT
