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Billyboy
1676 Posts
On May 07 2025 05:55 Nebuchad wrote: Could either of you two clowns please post something specific in what I've posted here that makes it look like I'm talking about Jews, so that we can see the disconnect in action? What percentage of those that you hate in Israel are not Jews? | ||
KwarK
United States43937 Posts
On May 07 2025 05:55 Dan HH wrote: His argument doesn't require anything uniquely Jewish and I've never detected a hint of anti-semitism in his hundreds of posts here. Warring tribes see eachother as vermin. You can replace Jews with Hutu and Palestinians with Tutsi and Oct 7 with the assassination of Habyarimana and you have the exact same debate on whether genocide/ethnic cleansing was planned/debated internally beforehand. His "even when I was wrong I was right" theory requires that there be a secret scheme that explains away the decades of contradictions as inevitably leading to this. Perhaps some sort of protocol that the Zionists have. Whereas my explanation is that the policy shifted over time because things shift over time in Israel, same as anywhere else. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12449 Posts
On May 07 2025 06:02 Billyboy wrote: What percentage of those that you hate in Israel are not Jews? I have no idea. | ||
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Billyboy
1676 Posts
Likely almost none. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26688 Posts
On May 07 2025 05:47 Billyboy wrote: There has been massive protests for a long time now in Israel, their governments policy is not popular but way to many people in this thread and in the left universe act as though all the Jews are cheering at each babies death. Next if white rednecks in the US south held the beliefs of Hamas towards the Mexicans and women, based on comments on the others threads, you would be cheering for their death and the deaths of their collaborators for hiding the Nazi's. There is some serious disconnects in peoples logic when it comes to Israel. I’m sure Iraqis or Afghanis who lost homes or loved ones in those conflicts take a lot of comfort in that there were plenty of protests in many of the countries making up ‘the Coalition of the Willing’. If someone actually says the things you’re claiming they’re claiming, then go for it. As it is, for myself, for others ‘Israel’ is a rather handy shorthand for the state, and its policies and actions past and present. As it tends to be when one invokes any nation’s name in such a context. Indeed something you’re quite happy to do in other contexts, so maybe extend the same courtesy. | ||
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Billyboy
1676 Posts
On May 07 2025 06:17 WombaT wrote: I’m sure Iraqis or Afghanis who lost homes or loved ones in those conflicts take a lot of comfort in that there were plenty of protests in many of the countries making up ‘the Coalition of the Willing’. If someone actually says the things you’re claiming they’re claiming, then go for it. As it is, for myself, for others ‘Israel’ is a rather handy shorthand for the state, and its policies and actions past and present. As it tends to be when one invokes any nation’s name in such a context. Indeed something you’re quite happy to do in other contexts, so maybe extend the same courtesy. My point is that when it comes to Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, HTS, and so on people are willing to suspend basically all their values to make them the "good guy freedom fighters". I understand much of this grace based on the situation of where they live and how they grew up. What I don't understand is why Israeli's get zero grace when their values actually align a lot closer to most of the people here. Edit: I'm sure all the Jews who have died to hate take comfort on people using the would Zionist instead of Jew. This form of moralizing to try to get the upper hand is easy to turn around and a race to the bottom. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12449 Posts
I don't know how that is likely. I also don't know how it's supposed to matter, which is perhaps more important? | ||
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Billyboy
1676 Posts
On May 07 2025 06:24 Nebuchad wrote: I don't know how that is likely. I also don't know how it's supposed to matter, which is perhaps more important? If it is not important then why does it bother you when the other word is used? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22283 Posts
On May 07 2025 06:06 KwarK wrote: An easy explanation is that some within Israel thought the international backlash would be to big and that the world wouldn't let them get away with it. His "even when I was wrong I was right" theory requires that there be a secret scheme that explains away the decades of contradictions as inevitably leading to this. Perhaps some sort of protocol that the Zionists have. Whereas my explanation is that the policy shifted over time because things shift over time in Israel, same as anywhere else. Oct 7th gave them a reason to go hard and they saw the response is basically non existent so they get bolder. And with Trump leading the US the only nation that could reasonably say no, no longer gives a shit or is actively on their side of 'yay ethnic cleansing, can I build some hotels there' You don't need an evil cabal planning for decades. Just despicable people seizing an opportunity. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12449 Posts
On May 07 2025 06:29 Billyboy wrote: If it is not important then why does it bother you when the other word is used? I don't know how the amount of non-jewish Israelis that I hate matters in the conversation, I do know why the conversation is important. But it would be wrong to claim that it bothers me when the other word is used, it would only bother me if it was used by people I respect, and it isn't. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26688 Posts
On May 07 2025 06:22 Billyboy wrote: My point is that when it comes to Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, HTS, and so on people are willing to suspend basically all their values to make them the "good guy freedom fighters". I understand much of this grace based on the situation of where they live and how they grew up. What I don't understand is why Israeli's get zero grace when their values actually align a lot closer to most of the people here. Edit: I'm sure all the Jews who have died to hate take comfort on people using the would Zionist instead of Jew. This form of moralizing to try to get the upper hand is easy to turn around and a race to the bottom. Who’s doing that here? I don’t have an issue with you pushing back, if those are the points being made. I’d happily join you if people were commonly making such claims for the most part. I’ve no doubt you encounter them elsewhere, I certainly have, but you’re injecting that rhetoric I too dislike back in here, when it largely is absent. There’s no intent to moralise, my point was that if a state does something, it does something. People don’t sit around going ‘well America blew up my house, but hey about 50% of them don’t support it so it’s no worries’. As an accompaniment to my wider point that saying ‘Israel’ does not necessarily mean a statement on all Israelis. Be it remotely via media, or indeed via actual interpersonal relations yeah there’s plenty of Israelis I have time for. The Palestinians I’ve met are alright as well. There’s decent folks everywhere, and the inverse | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26688 Posts
On May 07 2025 06:30 Gorsameth wrote: An easy explanation is that some within Israel thought the international backlash would be to big and that the world wouldn't let them get away with it. Oct 7th gave them a reason to go hard and they saw the response is basically non existent so they get bolder. And with Trump leading the US the only nation that could reasonably say no, no longer gives a shit or is actively on their side of 'yay ethnic cleansing, can I build some hotels there' You don't need an evil cabal planning for decades. Just despicable people seizing an opportunity. Yes, you put it better than I, so thanks! One can draw a line from settlement expansion and what that entails, to now and see a consistent thread of displacement. I’m aware that there are plenty of ebbs and flows, internal opposition etc, well they’re not currently winning on this. And weren’t really before either. In Israel’s defence, to not single it out, I can think of few nations that could tank an October 7th style event and not give in to some of our worse collective impulses. But to my mind it’s just accelerated a process that goes back quite some time. | ||
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Billyboy
1676 Posts
On May 07 2025 06:40 Nebuchad wrote: I don't know how the amount of non-jewish Israelis that I hate matters in the conversation, I do know why the conversation is important. But it would be wrong to claim that it bothers me when the other word is used, it would only bother me if it was used by people I respect, and it isn't. I guess pleading ignorance is an option. But clearly it is the Jews of Israel you are mad at. The orthodox Jews are the ones that support Netanyahu and those that are even further right than him. And the secular people of Jewish decent, people of Arab back grounds and other various groups of Israel are the ones that do not support it. I'm glad it doesn't bother you, but odd for you to bring it up when it does not. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12449 Posts
On May 07 2025 09:16 Billyboy wrote: I guess pleading ignorance is an option. But clearly it is the Jews of Israel you are mad at. The orthodox Jews are the ones that support Netanyahu and those that are even further right than him. And the secular people of Jewish decent, people of Arab back grounds and other various groups of Israel are the ones that do not support it. I'm glad it doesn't bother you, but odd for you to bring it up when it does not. I didn't bring it up? | ||
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Billyboy
1676 Posts
On May 07 2025 07:02 WombaT wrote: Who’s doing that here? I don’t have an issue with you pushing back, if those are the points being made. I’d happily join you if people were commonly making such claims for the most part. I’ve no doubt you encounter them elsewhere, I certainly have, but you’re injecting that rhetoric I too dislike back in here, when it largely is absent. There’s no intent to moralise, my point was that if a state does something, it does something. People don’t sit around going ‘well America blew up my house, but hey about 50% of them don’t support it so it’s no worries’. As an accompaniment to my wider point that saying ‘Israel’ does not necessarily mean a statement on all Israelis. Be it remotely via media, or indeed via actual interpersonal relations yeah there’s plenty of Israelis I have time for. The Palestinians I’ve met are alright as well. There’s decent folks everywhere, and the inverse There would be absolutely no push back to saying if someone said Americans are prolife and someone said well the evangelicals are but not all Americans and then continued to talk about evangelicals and their prolife beliefs. I get it makes it uncomfortable, it should and its meant to. There are some strange things that happen once Israel is involved. Like if you had a Gay or Trans son, or a daughter with any sexual orientation would you rather have them go live in Gaza (or Israel) ruled by Hamas or in Israel even with Netanyahu leading? Have you or people you have known used strong even violent rhetoric to describe what should happen to those in America who support anti LGBTQ or anti women stances? Are those stances that are so evil they should be punished be violence or death? But then when Hamas holds them, and is openly and proudly genocidal they are the good guys? There is no balanced discussion, it seems impossible. If it all does not look make Israel look awful, then there is some underhanded reason why. People should be allowed to discuss how bad Hamas is without being attacked. It has yet to happen. | ||
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Billyboy
1676 Posts
"Could either of you two clowns please post something specific in what I've posted here that makes it look like I'm talking about Jews, so that we can see the disconnect in action?" Feel free to look into Israeli politics, who's in Netanyahu's coalition, what they believe and who supports them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-seventh_government_of_Israel | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9838 Posts
BTW that is the original discussion. I made no reference to some secret conspiracy or decades long plan. In fact, I didn't talk about killing all Palestinians in Gaza either, I simply said they were indiscriminately levelling the place, to which the response was 'then why don't they use nukes?' which seemed like a pretty silly response at the time. The response that Israel hasn't tried to level Gaza in the last 4 decades, so they can't be trying to do it now is not rational, and then to be all "Its not my fault they have changed policy" YES THAT'S WHAT I WAS SAYING TO BEGIN WITH, that they appeared to be indiscriminately levelling Gaza now. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12449 Posts
On May 07 2025 09:32 Billyboy wrote: "Could either of you two clowns please post something specific in what I've posted here that makes it look like I'm talking about Jews, so that we can see the disconnect in action?" Feel free to look into Israeli politics, who's in Netanyahu's coalition, what they believe and who supports them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-seventh_government_of_Israel Can you think of a difference between hating Jews and hating people who support a specific government and specific policies and happen to be majority Jewish? I've noticed that you're not a fan of Russia, should I conclude that you hate white people or the orthodox church? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26688 Posts
On May 07 2025 09:16 Billyboy wrote: I guess pleading ignorance is an option. But clearly it is the Jews of Israel you are mad at. The orthodox Jews are the ones that support Netanyahu and those that are even further right than him. And the secular people of Jewish decent, people of Arab back grounds and other various groups of Israel are the ones that do not support it. I'm glad it doesn't bother you, but odd for you to bring it up when it does not. Ignorance of what exactly? Neb criticises the current policy of the Israeli state. You ask him what percentage of people he hates that are non-Jews or whatever He doesn’t have an answer because he’s never considered it in those terms in the first place. His stance, and others were never framed or formed on such things, remotely in the first place. What percentage of the population of China do you hate due to their Uighur policy? You’ve vocalised your opposition to those policies plenty, so I assume you’ve got that answer ready to go. Alternatively, idk it’s maybe a ridiculous line of questioning to begin with. | ||
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Billyboy
1676 Posts
On May 07 2025 09:36 WombaT wrote: Ignorance of what exactly? Neb criticises the current policy of the Israeli state. You ask him what percentage of people he hates that are non-Jews or whatever He doesn’t have an answer because he’s never considered it in those terms in the first place. His stance, and others were never framed or formed on such things, remotely in the first place. What percentage of the population of China do you hate due to their Uighur policy? You’ve vocalised your opposition to those policies plenty, so I assume you’ve got that answer ready to go. Alternatively, idk it’s maybe a ridiculous line of questioning to begin with. ig·no·rance /ˈiɡnərəns/ noun lack of knowledge or information. He said he had lack of knowledge about who supported the government making the policies he disagreed with, ignorance is the correct word and there is all sorts of information available if he wanted to know more, he chooses not too. I don't know what percentage of the population in China supports it my best guess is very few, so I have no hate for any of them. China and Israel have different political systems, one is a flawed democracy and one is a totalitarian neo fascist. I doubt most of the Chinese have any idea of what is going on there. We don't even know the full extent because they have such tight control of the media and information. I have a pretty similar level of dislike for Netanyahu and Xi. But much more hope for Israel to be able to turn it around do to the political system. | ||
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