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On May 06 2025 00:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2025 23:00 Jankisa wrote:
I fail to see how killing 50 k + people with more then half being women and children is not really ugly.
Not to mention all the record numbers of killed journalists, aid workers, emergency responders, volunteers etc. Not ugly enough to lose Europe's support. There isn't really even a coherent way to rationalize not sanctioning Israel. Show nested quote +On May 05 2025 20:03 Broetchenholer wrote:What can we do? Padding ourselves on the back that we won the argument on an internet forum? As long as our governments are spineless cowards + Show Spoiler + that treat the conflict as something like what's happening where even we do not care, like africa, there is nothing to do. The issue for Palestinians is that there are killed by a regime that we identify as somewhat part of our responsibility and accountability but in the end not enough to force our governments to affect change. I believe trying to motivate/organize people in the US (and people who take interest in US/or their own politics) toward electoral or radical political efforts to change those governments is helpful and necessary. More people joining those efforts would funnily enough address Jankisa's complaint. One of the big problems is that so many democracy enjoyers (basically all of them here) don't want to do the work a democracy takes. That and/or they have been deluded into believing that "the work a democracy takes" means simply periodically voting.
It's impossible. Like straight up impossible. I am part of a support palestine group in my local town (around 80k inhabitants). We're distributing flyers, we have public gathering. We're inviting scholars, historian like fillu or Pierre Stambul, journalist like Sylvain Cypelle. We have invited as well a palestinian writer, a translator of palestinian poetry. We have with the accord the local cinema projected movies like no other land and voyage à gaza.
But it doesn't work, we don't manage to expand the mobilization, it's a failure, a total failure. The vast majority don't care, the ones who do a little are extremely armophous. Just like on another topics like the maga authoritarianism and cruelty, society is anesthetized.
And it's the best case scenario, we have pro israeli supporter taunting us that they love watching palestinian kids getting murdered.
Of course, the police doesn't react to this kind of behavior, quite the contrary, we are pressured, like, one of our member got a summoning to the police because he asked sylvain cypelle during his conference if he suffered some pressure when publishing article on the subject. Of course, he is the only arab.
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Northern Ireland25642 Posts
On May 06 2025 00:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2025 23:00 Jankisa wrote:
I fail to see how killing 50 k + people with more then half being women and children is not really ugly.
Not to mention all the record numbers of killed journalists, aid workers, emergency responders, volunteers etc. Not ugly enough to lose Europe's support. There isn't really even a coherent way to rationalize not sanctioning Israel. Show nested quote +On May 05 2025 20:03 Broetchenholer wrote:What can we do? Padding ourselves on the back that we won the argument on an internet forum? As long as our governments are spineless cowards + Show Spoiler + that treat the conflict as something like what's happening where even we do not care, like africa, there is nothing to do. The issue for Palestinians is that there are killed by a regime that we identify as somewhat part of our responsibility and accountability but in the end not enough to force our governments to affect change. I believe trying to motivate/organize people in the US (and people who take interest in US/or their own politics) toward electoral or radical political efforts to change those governments is helpful and necessary. More people joining those efforts would funnily enough address Jankisa's complaint. One of the big problems is that so many democracy enjoyers (basically all of them here) don't want to do the work a democracy takes. That and/or they have been deluded into believing that "the work a democracy takes" means simply periodically voting.
What’s Europe going to do?
Aside from the fact that Europe isn’t a monolithic continent and attitudes and actions re Israel vary considerably. Despite that direct economic entanglements aren’t exactly huge so there’s not a huge amount of leverage there.
Also as continents go, already the most vociferous and active on the issue.
Ever notice that, ineffectual as it was most interjections from the world at large occurred during the Biden administration? Not because it would necessarily listen, but at least the possibility of pressure might swing things? It Europe has a sway in such things, it’s only with a potentially receptive US you can do shit. If you elect a ‘Israel can do whatever it wants’ US government you limit those options considerably.
You were told this repeatedly.
Instead you went with ‘Genocide Joe’ rhetoric for fucking months, and claim no misjudgement whatsoever. While preaching and pontificating the whole time.
One can only presume you’ve personally done a fuckload to help the Palestinian cause, otherwise such a piousness would be ridiculous right?
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On May 06 2025 12:04 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2025 00:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 05 2025 23:00 Jankisa wrote:
I fail to see how killing 50 k + people with more then half being women and children is not really ugly.
Not to mention all the record numbers of killed journalists, aid workers, emergency responders, volunteers etc. Not ugly enough to lose Europe's support. There isn't really even a coherent way to rationalize not sanctioning Israel. On May 05 2025 20:03 Broetchenholer wrote:What can we do? Padding ourselves on the back that we won the argument on an internet forum? As long as our governments are spineless cowards + Show Spoiler + that treat the conflict as something like what's happening where even we do not care, like africa, there is nothing to do. The issue for Palestinians is that there are killed by a regime that we identify as somewhat part of our responsibility and accountability but in the end not enough to force our governments to affect change. I believe trying to motivate/organize people in the US (and people who take interest in US/or their own politics) toward electoral or radical political efforts to change those governments is helpful and necessary. More people joining those efforts would funnily enough address Jankisa's complaint. One of the big problems is that so many democracy enjoyers (basically all of them here) don't want to do the work a democracy takes. That and/or they have been deluded into believing that "the work a democracy takes" means simply periodically voting. What’s Europe going to do? Aside from the fact that Europe isn’t a monolithic continent and attitudes and actions re Israel vary considerably. Despite that direct economic entanglements aren’t exactly huge so there’s not a huge amount of leverage there. + Show Spoiler +Also as continents go, already the most vociferous and active on the issue. Ever notice that, ineffectual as it was most interjections from the world at large occurred during the Biden administration? Not because it would necessarily listen, but at least the possibility of pressure might swing things? It Europe has a sway in such things, it’s only with a potentially receptive US you can do shit. If you elect a ‘Israel can do whatever it wants’ US government you limit those options considerably.
You were told this repeatedly.
Instead you went with ‘Genocide Joe’ rhetoric for fucking months, and claim no misjudgement whatsoever. While preaching and pontificating the whole time.
One can only presume you’ve personally done a fuckload to help the Palestinian cause, otherwise such a piousness would be ridiculous right? Well...
On April 27 2025 20:53 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2025 17:29 Yurie wrote:On April 27 2025 16:58 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/apr/26/antisemitism-us-jews-free-speechThe Trump administration claims that its moves to defund universities, arrest and deport students and force schools to demote or monitor professors are meant to combat antisemitism, protect Jewish students and remove “Hamas-supporting” foreign nationals from the country. American pro-Israel groups including the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), Hillel International, Aipac and the Heritage Foundation have united behind Republican measures to crack down on higher education and its putative antisemitism. Religiously identified groups such as the Orthodox Union and Christians United for Israel have joined the chorus, celebrating the punishment of supposedly antisemitic students and professors. Whatever their varied pasts, today’s pro-Israel groups are not about protecting American Jews. Instead, they are allies in Maga’s war on free speech, academic freedom and the US’s democratic society itself. This shows how badly the definition of antisemitism has been twisted by the Israeli government and its advocacy groups worlwide. The US government is now targeting American jews who disagree with the way Israel is conducting its genocide, at the behest of pro-Israel groups. Now what is really antisemitic? Disagreeing with Israel's actions, or the US government targeting jews for arrest for speaking out? I think this separation is quite clear in Europe. Jews are more unpopular than they were but far from large organized hate crimes against them. While Israel as a state is unpopular and people would not object to them being banned at sporting events, Eurovision, stop military sales etc. What are you guys waiting for?
Could do sanctions on Netanyahu and others that specifically have used genocidal rhetoric and/or the country at large. I mean there's plenty the EU and European countries generally could be doing but aren't. Plenty their populations could join people like stilt and myself in demanding from their politicians,but aren't. Plenty people could be contributing to right here, but aren't.
What exact "misjudgement" do you want me to admit to? Pointing out the material fact that the Biden administration was aiding and abetting a genocide (or ethnic cleansing campaign if one insists), and their insistence on doing that was not only morally indefensible, it was basically electoral malpractice?
If you find yourself telling people they shouldn't point out their nation's political leadership is, as a matter of fact, aiding and abetting genocide (or EC) because you believe it would hurt their chance of getting reelected, you've already lost the plot.
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On May 06 2025 12:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
Plenty their populations could join people like stilt and myself in demanding from their politicians,but aren't. Plenty people could be contributing to right here, but aren't.
No offence, but same could be said of you.
By now you should know that no change by political process is happening.
You still refuse to move past it.
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On May 06 2025 12:47 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2025 12:04 WombaT wrote:On May 06 2025 00:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 05 2025 23:00 Jankisa wrote:
I fail to see how killing 50 k + people with more then half being women and children is not really ugly.
Not to mention all the record numbers of killed journalists, aid workers, emergency responders, volunteers etc. Not ugly enough to lose Europe's support. There isn't really even a coherent way to rationalize not sanctioning Israel. On May 05 2025 20:03 Broetchenholer wrote:What can we do? Padding ourselves on the back that we won the argument on an internet forum? As long as our governments are spineless cowards + Show Spoiler + that treat the conflict as something like what's happening where even we do not care, like africa, there is nothing to do. The issue for Palestinians is that there are killed by a regime that we identify as somewhat part of our responsibility and accountability but in the end not enough to force our governments to affect change. I believe trying to motivate/organize people in the US (and people who take interest in US/or their own politics) toward electoral or radical political efforts to change those governments is helpful and necessary. More people joining those efforts would funnily enough address Jankisa's complaint. One of the big problems is that so many democracy enjoyers (basically all of them here) don't want to do the work a democracy takes. That and/or they have been deluded into believing that "the work a democracy takes" means simply periodically voting. What’s Europe going to do? Aside from the fact that Europe isn’t a monolithic continent and attitudes and actions re Israel vary considerably. Despite that direct economic entanglements aren’t exactly huge so there’s not a huge amount of leverage there. + Show Spoiler +Also as continents go, already the most vociferous and active on the issue. Ever notice that, ineffectual as it was most interjections from the world at large occurred during the Biden administration? Not because it would necessarily listen, but at least the possibility of pressure might swing things? It Europe has a sway in such things, it’s only with a potentially receptive US you can do shit. If you elect a ‘Israel can do whatever it wants’ US government you limit those options considerably.
You were told this repeatedly.
Instead you went with ‘Genocide Joe’ rhetoric for fucking months, and claim no misjudgement whatsoever. While preaching and pontificating the whole time.
One can only presume you’ve personally done a fuckload to help the Palestinian cause, otherwise such a piousness would be ridiculous right? Well...Show nested quote +On April 27 2025 20:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2025 17:29 Yurie wrote:On April 27 2025 16:58 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/apr/26/antisemitism-us-jews-free-speechThe Trump administration claims that its moves to defund universities, arrest and deport students and force schools to demote or monitor professors are meant to combat antisemitism, protect Jewish students and remove “Hamas-supporting” foreign nationals from the country. American pro-Israel groups including the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), Hillel International, Aipac and the Heritage Foundation have united behind Republican measures to crack down on higher education and its putative antisemitism. Religiously identified groups such as the Orthodox Union and Christians United for Israel have joined the chorus, celebrating the punishment of supposedly antisemitic students and professors. Whatever their varied pasts, today’s pro-Israel groups are not about protecting American Jews. Instead, they are allies in Maga’s war on free speech, academic freedom and the US’s democratic society itself. This shows how badly the definition of antisemitism has been twisted by the Israeli government and its advocacy groups worlwide. The US government is now targeting American jews who disagree with the way Israel is conducting its genocide, at the behest of pro-Israel groups. Now what is really antisemitic? Disagreeing with Israel's actions, or the US government targeting jews for arrest for speaking out? I think this separation is quite clear in Europe. Jews are more unpopular than they were but far from large organized hate crimes against them. While Israel as a state is unpopular and people would not object to them being banned at sporting events, Eurovision, stop military sales etc. What are you guys waiting for? Could do sanctions on Netanyahu and others that specifically have used genocidal rhetoric and/or the country at large. I mean there's plenty the EU and European countries generally could be doing but aren't. Plenty their populations could join people like stilt and myself in demanding from their politicians,but aren't. Plenty people could be contributing to right here, but aren't. What exact "misjudgement" do you want me to admit to? Pointing out the material fact that the Biden administration was aiding and abetting a genocide (or ethnic cleansing campaign if one insists), and their insistence on doing that was not only morally indefensible, it was basically electoral malpractice? If you find yourself telling people they shouldn't point out their nation's political leadership is, as a matter of fact, aiding and abetting genocide (or EC) because you believe it would hurt their chance of getting reelected, you've already lost the plot.
I know for a fact my government is immune to pressure on this subject.
They have a huge majority and already essentially have consent to do whatever the fuck they want, and they obviously don't want to fuck with Israel, because the current people in charge of Labour got there working very closely with the Israel lobby to discredit and character assassinate Corbyn.
There is no route in the UK to a government that doesn't sell weapons to Israel.
Ireland has a good record on Israel.
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On May 06 2025 14:54 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2025 12:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 06 2025 12:04 WombaT wrote:On May 06 2025 00:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 05 2025 23:00 Jankisa wrote:
I fail to see how killing 50 k + people with more then half being women and children is not really ugly.
Not to mention all the record numbers of killed journalists, aid workers, emergency responders, volunteers etc. Not ugly enough to lose Europe's support. There isn't really even a coherent way to rationalize not sanctioning Israel. On May 05 2025 20:03 Broetchenholer wrote:What can we do? Padding ourselves on the back that we won the argument on an internet forum? As long as our governments are spineless cowards + Show Spoiler + that treat the conflict as something like what's happening where even we do not care, like africa, there is nothing to do. The issue for Palestinians is that there are killed by a regime that we identify as somewhat part of our responsibility and accountability but in the end not enough to force our governments to affect change. I believe trying to motivate/organize people in the US (and people who take interest in US/or their own politics) toward electoral or radical political efforts to change those governments is helpful and necessary. More people joining those efforts would funnily enough address Jankisa's complaint. One of the big problems is that so many democracy enjoyers (basically all of them here) don't want to do the work a democracy takes. That and/or they have been deluded into believing that "the work a democracy takes" means simply periodically voting. What’s Europe going to do? Aside from the fact that Europe isn’t a monolithic continent and attitudes and actions re Israel vary considerably. Despite that direct economic entanglements aren’t exactly huge so there’s not a huge amount of leverage there. + Show Spoiler +Also as continents go, already the most vociferous and active on the issue. Ever notice that, ineffectual as it was most interjections from the world at large occurred during the Biden administration? Not because it would necessarily listen, but at least the possibility of pressure might swing things? It Europe has a sway in such things, it’s only with a potentially receptive US you can do shit. If you elect a ‘Israel can do whatever it wants’ US government you limit those options considerably.
You were told this repeatedly.
Instead you went with ‘Genocide Joe’ rhetoric for fucking months, and claim no misjudgement whatsoever. While preaching and pontificating the whole time.
One can only presume you’ve personally done a fuckload to help the Palestinian cause, otherwise such a piousness would be ridiculous right? Well...On April 27 2025 20:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2025 17:29 Yurie wrote:On April 27 2025 16:58 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/apr/26/antisemitism-us-jews-free-speechThe Trump administration claims that its moves to defund universities, arrest and deport students and force schools to demote or monitor professors are meant to combat antisemitism, protect Jewish students and remove “Hamas-supporting” foreign nationals from the country. American pro-Israel groups including the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), Hillel International, Aipac and the Heritage Foundation have united behind Republican measures to crack down on higher education and its putative antisemitism. Religiously identified groups such as the Orthodox Union and Christians United for Israel have joined the chorus, celebrating the punishment of supposedly antisemitic students and professors. Whatever their varied pasts, today’s pro-Israel groups are not about protecting American Jews. Instead, they are allies in Maga’s war on free speech, academic freedom and the US’s democratic society itself. This shows how badly the definition of antisemitism has been twisted by the Israeli government and its advocacy groups worlwide. The US government is now targeting American jews who disagree with the way Israel is conducting its genocide, at the behest of pro-Israel groups. Now what is really antisemitic? Disagreeing with Israel's actions, or the US government targeting jews for arrest for speaking out? I think this separation is quite clear in Europe. Jews are more unpopular than they were but far from large organized hate crimes against them. While Israel as a state is unpopular and people would not object to them being banned at sporting events, Eurovision, stop military sales etc. What are you guys waiting for? Could do sanctions on Netanyahu and others that specifically have used genocidal rhetoric and/or the country at large. I mean there's plenty the EU and European countries generally could be doing but aren't. Plenty their populations could join people like stilt and myself in demanding from their politicians,but aren't. Plenty people could be contributing to right here, but aren't. What exact "misjudgement" do you want me to admit to? Pointing out the material fact that the Biden administration was aiding and abetting a genocide (or ethnic cleansing campaign if one insists), and their insistence on doing that was not only morally indefensible, it was basically electoral malpractice? If you find yourself telling people they shouldn't point out their nation's political leadership is, as a matter of fact, aiding and abetting genocide (or EC) because you believe it would hurt their chance of getting reelected, you've already lost the plot. I know for a fact my government is immune to pressure on this subject. They have a huge majority and already essentially have consent to do whatever the fuck they want, and they obviously don't want to fuck with Israel, because the current people in charge of Labour got there working very closely with the Israel lobby to discredit and character assassinate Corbyn. There is no route in the UK to a government that doesn't sell weapons to Israel. Ireland has a good record on Israel. Is it the government or the voters that are immune to pressure to act? Seems to me to be both and a bit of a responsibility diffuser. Somehow it ends up basically no one's fault that these ostensibly democratic countries around the Western world have been aiding and abetting a genocide for over a year. As if neither the voters or the people they vote for have agency.
The people of Ireland are quite supportive of Palestinians afaict. In N. Ireland the dynamic is pretty specific.
One of the British governors of Jerusalem even said that Israel could be a, quote, "loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of hostile Arabism."
...
Today, Irish support for the Palestinians feels most pronounced in Northern Ireland, which is governed by the British and where Irish nationalists compare their situation to Palestinians under Israeli occupation.
www.npr.org
Also, religion more specifically:
Religious narratives play a “massive role” in explaining support for Israel among both Irish, British and American Christians, Bumin said.
In particular, belief in the Abrahamic covenant – God’s biblical promise to the Jewish people – emerged as one of the top predictors of pro-Israel sentiment.
“For people who say they support Israel in all three countries we surveyed, the idea that Israel is important for the fulfillment of biblical prophecies is of major significance,” Bumin said.
Theological differences between Christian denominations play an important role, with Catholics in Ireland almost 80% less likely to support Israel than Protestants, the survey found.
www.timesofisrael.com
The bold is quite the euphemism.
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On May 06 2025 15:56 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2025 14:54 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 06 2025 12:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 06 2025 12:04 WombaT wrote:On May 06 2025 00:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 05 2025 23:00 Jankisa wrote:
I fail to see how killing 50 k + people with more then half being women and children is not really ugly.
Not to mention all the record numbers of killed journalists, aid workers, emergency responders, volunteers etc. Not ugly enough to lose Europe's support. There isn't really even a coherent way to rationalize not sanctioning Israel. On May 05 2025 20:03 Broetchenholer wrote:What can we do? Padding ourselves on the back that we won the argument on an internet forum? As long as our governments are spineless cowards + Show Spoiler + that treat the conflict as something like what's happening where even we do not care, like africa, there is nothing to do. The issue for Palestinians is that there are killed by a regime that we identify as somewhat part of our responsibility and accountability but in the end not enough to force our governments to affect change. I believe trying to motivate/organize people in the US (and people who take interest in US/or their own politics) toward electoral or radical political efforts to change those governments is helpful and necessary. More people joining those efforts would funnily enough address Jankisa's complaint. One of the big problems is that so many democracy enjoyers (basically all of them here) don't want to do the work a democracy takes. That and/or they have been deluded into believing that "the work a democracy takes" means simply periodically voting. What’s Europe going to do? Aside from the fact that Europe isn’t a monolithic continent and attitudes and actions re Israel vary considerably. Despite that direct economic entanglements aren’t exactly huge so there’s not a huge amount of leverage there. + Show Spoiler +Also as continents go, already the most vociferous and active on the issue. Ever notice that, ineffectual as it was most interjections from the world at large occurred during the Biden administration? Not because it would necessarily listen, but at least the possibility of pressure might swing things? It Europe has a sway in such things, it’s only with a potentially receptive US you can do shit. If you elect a ‘Israel can do whatever it wants’ US government you limit those options considerably.
You were told this repeatedly.
Instead you went with ‘Genocide Joe’ rhetoric for fucking months, and claim no misjudgement whatsoever. While preaching and pontificating the whole time.
One can only presume you’ve personally done a fuckload to help the Palestinian cause, otherwise such a piousness would be ridiculous right? Well...On April 27 2025 20:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2025 17:29 Yurie wrote:On April 27 2025 16:58 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/apr/26/antisemitism-us-jews-free-speechThe Trump administration claims that its moves to defund universities, arrest and deport students and force schools to demote or monitor professors are meant to combat antisemitism, protect Jewish students and remove “Hamas-supporting” foreign nationals from the country. American pro-Israel groups including the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), Hillel International, Aipac and the Heritage Foundation have united behind Republican measures to crack down on higher education and its putative antisemitism. Religiously identified groups such as the Orthodox Union and Christians United for Israel have joined the chorus, celebrating the punishment of supposedly antisemitic students and professors. Whatever their varied pasts, today’s pro-Israel groups are not about protecting American Jews. Instead, they are allies in Maga’s war on free speech, academic freedom and the US’s democratic society itself. This shows how badly the definition of antisemitism has been twisted by the Israeli government and its advocacy groups worlwide. The US government is now targeting American jews who disagree with the way Israel is conducting its genocide, at the behest of pro-Israel groups. Now what is really antisemitic? Disagreeing with Israel's actions, or the US government targeting jews for arrest for speaking out? I think this separation is quite clear in Europe. Jews are more unpopular than they were but far from large organized hate crimes against them. While Israel as a state is unpopular and people would not object to them being banned at sporting events, Eurovision, stop military sales etc. What are you guys waiting for? Could do sanctions on Netanyahu and others that specifically have used genocidal rhetoric and/or the country at large. I mean there's plenty the EU and European countries generally could be doing but aren't. Plenty their populations could join people like stilt and myself in demanding from their politicians,but aren't. Plenty people could be contributing to right here, but aren't. What exact "misjudgement" do you want me to admit to? Pointing out the material fact that the Biden administration was aiding and abetting a genocide (or ethnic cleansing campaign if one insists), and their insistence on doing that was not only morally indefensible, it was basically electoral malpractice? If you find yourself telling people they shouldn't point out their nation's political leadership is, as a matter of fact, aiding and abetting genocide (or EC) because you believe it would hurt their chance of getting reelected, you've already lost the plot. I know for a fact my government is immune to pressure on this subject. They have a huge majority and already essentially have consent to do whatever the fuck they want, and they obviously don't want to fuck with Israel, because the current people in charge of Labour got there working very closely with the Israel lobby to discredit and character assassinate Corbyn. There is no route in the UK to a government that doesn't sell weapons to Israel. Ireland has a good record on Israel. Is it the government or the voters that are immune to pressure to act? Seems to me to be both and a bit of a responsibility diffuser. Somehow it ends up basically no one's fault that these ostensibly democratic countries around the Western world have been aiding and abetting a genocide for over a year. As if neither the voters or the people they vote for have agency. The people of Ireland are quite supportive of Palestinians afaict. In N. Ireland the dynamic is pretty specific. Show nested quote +One of the British governors of Jerusalem even said that Israel could be a, quote, "loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of hostile Arabism."
...
Today, Irish support for the Palestinians feels most pronounced in Northern Ireland, which is governed by the British and where Irish nationalists compare their situation to Palestinians under Israeli occupation. www.npr.orgAlso, religion more specifically: Show nested quote +Religious narratives play a “massive role” in explaining support for Israel among both Irish, British and American Christians, Bumin said.
In particular, belief in the Abrahamic covenant – God’s biblical promise to the Jewish people – emerged as one of the top predictors of pro-Israel sentiment.
“For people who say they support Israel in all three countries we surveyed, the idea that Israel is important for the fulfillment of biblical prophecies is of major significance,” Bumin said.
Theological differences between Christian denominations play an important role, with Catholics in Ireland almost 80% less likely to support Israel than Protestants, the survey found. www.timesofisrael.comThe bold is quite the euphemism.
I'd never considered looking at this along religious lines within Christianity and I'm not sure it holds up. Northern Ireland is a pretty specific case, where it could also just be that the Catholics vibe more with whatever Ireland is doing rather than having an a priori religious reason. That said, Francis was fairly critical of Israel, so Catholics might listen to that. However I'm not sure it holds. Italy, the European bastion of Catholicism is totally fine with Netanyahu. Spain, another bastion of Catholicism, is not. Poland, yet another Catholic nation, seems totally indifferent (almost allowed Netanyahu to show up to the Auschwitz memorial, but is overall at least somewhat critical). Nor do I see any particular religious underpinnings in how South America talks about Israel. Argentina doesn't give a fuck and has voted against some UN mandates condemning Israeli behaviour. Brazil is more critical. Both are deeply Catholic nations.
However all these Catholic nations are ruled by different political alliances. Spain and Brazil: social democrats. Ireland and Poland: centric parties/coalitions. Argentina and Italy: right wing.
I find it hard to draw a comparison in protestant nations, but I'll grant you that even their more leftish governments aren't as outspoken against Israel as the more leftish Catholic ones: Denmark voted against recognising the Palestinian state in 2024 (although the rest of Scandinavia do recognise it). Germany under Scholz was indifferent at best. Finland lets its actions (doing arms deals) speak louder than its words (critical).
But I find that the hypothesis that this is due to different flavours of Christianity rather than other factors unsubstantiated.
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When it comes to Ireland there is also history to consider.
Ireland lived under the boot of the English for a very long time. They are a historically oppressed nation, and they don't and won't forget it.
They were on the right side in the South Africa apartheid, and they are on the right side again here.
NI, well there's a history of siding with the oppressor there.
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On May 06 2025 12:04 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2025 00:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 05 2025 23:00 Jankisa wrote:
I fail to see how killing 50 k + people with more then half being women and children is not really ugly.
Not to mention all the record numbers of killed journalists, aid workers, emergency responders, volunteers etc. Not ugly enough to lose Europe's support. There isn't really even a coherent way to rationalize not sanctioning Israel. On May 05 2025 20:03 Broetchenholer wrote:What can we do? Padding ourselves on the back that we won the argument on an internet forum? As long as our governments are spineless cowards + Show Spoiler + that treat the conflict as something like what's happening where even we do not care, like africa, there is nothing to do. The issue for Palestinians is that there are killed by a regime that we identify as somewhat part of our responsibility and accountability but in the end not enough to force our governments to affect change. I believe trying to motivate/organize people in the US (and people who take interest in US/or their own politics) toward electoral or radical political efforts to change those governments is helpful and necessary. More people joining those efforts would funnily enough address Jankisa's complaint. One of the big problems is that so many democracy enjoyers (basically all of them here) don't want to do the work a democracy takes. That and/or they have been deluded into believing that "the work a democracy takes" means simply periodically voting. What’s Europe going to do? Aside from the fact that Europe isn’t a monolithic continent and attitudes and actions re Israel vary considerably. Despite that direct economic entanglements aren’t exactly huge so there’s not a huge amount of leverage there. Also as continents go, already the most vociferous and active on the issue. Ever notice that, ineffectual as it was most interjections from the world at large occurred during the Biden administration? Not because it would necessarily listen, but at least the possibility of pressure might swing things? It Europe has a sway in such things, it’s only with a potentially receptive US you can do shit. If you elect a ‘Israel can do whatever it wants’ US government you limit those options considerably. You were told this repeatedly. Instead you went with ‘Genocide Joe’ rhetoric for fucking months, and claim no misjudgement whatsoever. While preaching and pontificating the whole time. One can only presume you’ve personally done a fuckload to help the Palestinian cause, otherwise such a piousness would be ridiculous right?
What are you talking about ?
Ue is either the first or close second business partner with israel. Sanctions would be a huge leverage.
Either you don't know the subject or you're lying but you should refrain posting then.
The rest is average centrist hypocrisy, the democrats including your darling cory are largely funded by aipac, they funded, supported diplomaticaly and even armed Israel.
The democrat administration spearheaded alongside the maga the repression against the anti genocide movement.
The democrat have fully aligned themselves with a supremacist far right who is currently committing a genocide and fully supported them at each step and the lesson you seem to learn of this defeat is "fucking arabs".
Well, eat this defeat, eat it well because there are more to come, the rightists won't for you no matter how aligned you are with their views while leftists just do'n't vote for genocide supporter.
All in all only blatant idiots or liers can pretend the democrat administration acted differently than the maga one, the only advantage with Trump is he isn't at hypocrite as you are .
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I love how we are supposed to justify our "inaction" when all this guy has ever demonstrated as "proof" of his "activism" is links to his own comments on this forum.
The fact is, the screetching about "Genocide Joe" that was done by people like GreenHorizons contributed more to the suffering of Palestinians then anything any of us in EU countries could ever do, it contributed to electoral defeat of the only people who could have at least reigned Netyanahu in, now, that the chickens are coming home to roost and the actual genocide happy pieces of shit are in power he's here lecturing us on inaction as if European countries are the ones providing billions in weapons directly used to murder these folks.
One of the first things Trump did when he came to power is resume the deliveries of 2000 pound bombs that "Genocide Joe" stopped before he went out...
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On May 06 2025 16:43 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2025 15:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 06 2025 14:54 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 06 2025 12:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 06 2025 12:04 WombaT wrote:On May 06 2025 00:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 05 2025 23:00 Jankisa wrote:
I fail to see how killing 50 k + people with more then half being women and children is not really ugly.
Not to mention all the record numbers of killed journalists, aid workers, emergency responders, volunteers etc. Not ugly enough to lose Europe's support. There isn't really even a coherent way to rationalize not sanctioning Israel. On May 05 2025 20:03 Broetchenholer wrote:What can we do? Padding ourselves on the back that we won the argument on an internet forum? As long as our governments are spineless cowards + Show Spoiler + that treat the conflict as something like what's happening where even we do not care, like africa, there is nothing to do. The issue for Palestinians is that there are killed by a regime that we identify as somewhat part of our responsibility and accountability but in the end not enough to force our governments to affect change. I believe trying to motivate/organize people in the US (and people who take interest in US/or their own politics) toward electoral or radical political efforts to change those governments is helpful and necessary. More people joining those efforts would funnily enough address Jankisa's complaint. One of the big problems is that so many democracy enjoyers (basically all of them here) don't want to do the work a democracy takes. That and/or they have been deluded into believing that "the work a democracy takes" means simply periodically voting. What’s Europe going to do? Aside from the fact that Europe isn’t a monolithic continent and attitudes and actions re Israel vary considerably. Despite that direct economic entanglements aren’t exactly huge so there’s not a huge amount of leverage there. + Show Spoiler +Also as continents go, already the most vociferous and active on the issue. Ever notice that, ineffectual as it was most interjections from the world at large occurred during the Biden administration? Not because it would necessarily listen, but at least the possibility of pressure might swing things? It Europe has a sway in such things, it’s only with a potentially receptive US you can do shit. If you elect a ‘Israel can do whatever it wants’ US government you limit those options considerably.
You were told this repeatedly.
Instead you went with ‘Genocide Joe’ rhetoric for fucking months, and claim no misjudgement whatsoever. While preaching and pontificating the whole time.
One can only presume you’ve personally done a fuckload to help the Palestinian cause, otherwise such a piousness would be ridiculous right? Well...On April 27 2025 20:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2025 17:29 Yurie wrote:On April 27 2025 16:58 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/apr/26/antisemitism-us-jews-free-speechThe Trump administration claims that its moves to defund universities, arrest and deport students and force schools to demote or monitor professors are meant to combat antisemitism, protect Jewish students and remove “Hamas-supporting” foreign nationals from the country. American pro-Israel groups including the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), Hillel International, Aipac and the Heritage Foundation have united behind Republican measures to crack down on higher education and its putative antisemitism. Religiously identified groups such as the Orthodox Union and Christians United for Israel have joined the chorus, celebrating the punishment of supposedly antisemitic students and professors. Whatever their varied pasts, today’s pro-Israel groups are not about protecting American Jews. Instead, they are allies in Maga’s war on free speech, academic freedom and the US’s democratic society itself. This shows how badly the definition of antisemitism has been twisted by the Israeli government and its advocacy groups worlwide. The US government is now targeting American jews who disagree with the way Israel is conducting its genocide, at the behest of pro-Israel groups. Now what is really antisemitic? Disagreeing with Israel's actions, or the US government targeting jews for arrest for speaking out? I think this separation is quite clear in Europe. Jews are more unpopular than they were but far from large organized hate crimes against them. While Israel as a state is unpopular and people would not object to them being banned at sporting events, Eurovision, stop military sales etc. What are you guys waiting for? Could do sanctions on Netanyahu and others that specifically have used genocidal rhetoric and/or the country at large. I mean there's plenty the EU and European countries generally could be doing but aren't. Plenty their populations could join people like stilt and myself in demanding from their politicians,but aren't. Plenty people could be contributing to right here, but aren't. What exact "misjudgement" do you want me to admit to? Pointing out the material fact that the Biden administration was aiding and abetting a genocide (or ethnic cleansing campaign if one insists), and their insistence on doing that was not only morally indefensible, it was basically electoral malpractice? If you find yourself telling people they shouldn't point out their nation's political leadership is, as a matter of fact, aiding and abetting genocide (or EC) because you believe it would hurt their chance of getting reelected, you've already lost the plot. I know for a fact my government is immune to pressure on this subject. They have a huge majority and already essentially have consent to do whatever the fuck they want, and they obviously don't want to fuck with Israel, because the current people in charge of Labour got there working very closely with the Israel lobby to discredit and character assassinate Corbyn. There is no route in the UK to a government that doesn't sell weapons to Israel. Ireland has a good record on Israel. Is it the government or the voters that are immune to pressure to act? Seems to me to be both and a bit of a responsibility diffuser. Somehow it ends up basically no one's fault that these ostensibly democratic countries around the Western world have been aiding and abetting a genocide for over a year. As if neither the voters or the people they vote for have agency. The people of Ireland are quite supportive of Palestinians afaict. In N. Ireland the dynamic is pretty specific. One of the British governors of Jerusalem even said that Israel could be a, quote, "loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of hostile Arabism."
...
Today, Irish support for the Palestinians feels most pronounced in Northern Ireland, which is governed by the British and where Irish nationalists compare their situation to Palestinians under Israeli occupation. www.npr.orgAlso, religion more specifically: Religious narratives play a “massive role” in explaining support for Israel among both Irish, British and American Christians, Bumin said.
In particular, belief in the Abrahamic covenant – God’s biblical promise to the Jewish people – emerged as one of the top predictors of pro-Israel sentiment.
“For people who say they support Israel in all three countries we surveyed, the idea that Israel is important for the fulfillment of biblical prophecies is of major significance,” Bumin said.
Theological differences between Christian denominations play an important role, with Catholics in Ireland almost 80% less likely to support Israel than Protestants, the survey found. www.timesofisrael.comThe bold is quite the euphemism. I'd never considered looking at this along religious lines within Christianity and I'm not sure it holds up. Northern Ireland is a pretty specific case, where it could also just be that the Catholics vibe more with whatever Ireland is doing rather than having an a priori religious reason. That said, Francis was fairly critical of Israel, so Catholics might listen to that. However I'm not sure it holds. Italy, the European bastion of Catholicism is totally fine with Netanyahu. Spain, another bastion of Catholicism, is not. Poland, yet another Catholic nation, seems totally indifferent (almost allowed Netanyahu to show up to the Auschwitz memorial, but is overall at least somewhat critical). Nor do I see any particular religious underpinnings in how South America talks about Israel. Argentina doesn't give a fuck and has voted against some UN mandates condemning Israeli behaviour. Brazil is more critical. Both are deeply Catholic nations. However all these Catholic nations are ruled by different political alliances. Spain and Brazil: social democrats. Ireland and Poland: centric parties/coalitions. Argentina and Italy: right wing. I find it hard to draw a comparison in protestant nations, but I'll grant you that even their more leftish governments aren't as outspoken against Israel as the more leftish Catholic ones: Denmark voted against recognising the Palestinian state in 2024 (although the rest of Scandinavia do recognise it). Germany under Scholz was indifferent at best. Finland lets its actions (doing arms deals) speak louder than its words (critical). But I find that the hypothesis that this is due to different flavours of Christianity rather than other factors unsubstantiated.
There are definetly more catholic opposition to israel than among the evangelical.
Firstly because the later believe in the end of time and the return of jesus if the jews are in jerusalem.
Secundly because even if the catholic chuch is full of conservatives, there are way more aware of the oppression suffered by the christian and especially the armenian community within Israel.
The local branch of the secours catholique supports us, it is unthinkable to receive help of any pastors.
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On May 06 2025 15:56 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2025 14:54 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 06 2025 12:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 06 2025 12:04 WombaT wrote:On May 06 2025 00:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 05 2025 23:00 Jankisa wrote:
I fail to see how killing 50 k + people with more then half being women and children is not really ugly.
Not to mention all the record numbers of killed journalists, aid workers, emergency responders, volunteers etc. Not ugly enough to lose Europe's support. There isn't really even a coherent way to rationalize not sanctioning Israel. On May 05 2025 20:03 Broetchenholer wrote:What can we do? Padding ourselves on the back that we won the argument on an internet forum? As long as our governments are spineless cowards + Show Spoiler + that treat the conflict as something like what's happening where even we do not care, like africa, there is nothing to do. The issue for Palestinians is that there are killed by a regime that we identify as somewhat part of our responsibility and accountability but in the end not enough to force our governments to affect change. I believe trying to motivate/organize people in the US (and people who take interest in US/or their own politics) toward electoral or radical political efforts to change those governments is helpful and necessary. More people joining those efforts would funnily enough address Jankisa's complaint. One of the big problems is that so many democracy enjoyers (basically all of them here) don't want to do the work a democracy takes. That and/or they have been deluded into believing that "the work a democracy takes" means simply periodically voting. What’s Europe going to do? Aside from the fact that Europe isn’t a monolithic continent and attitudes and actions re Israel vary considerably. Despite that direct economic entanglements aren’t exactly huge so there’s not a huge amount of leverage there. + Show Spoiler +Also as continents go, already the most vociferous and active on the issue. Ever notice that, ineffectual as it was most interjections from the world at large occurred during the Biden administration? Not because it would necessarily listen, but at least the possibility of pressure might swing things? It Europe has a sway in such things, it’s only with a potentially receptive US you can do shit. If you elect a ‘Israel can do whatever it wants’ US government you limit those options considerably.
You were told this repeatedly.
Instead you went with ‘Genocide Joe’ rhetoric for fucking months, and claim no misjudgement whatsoever. While preaching and pontificating the whole time.
One can only presume you’ve personally done a fuckload to help the Palestinian cause, otherwise such a piousness would be ridiculous right? Well...On April 27 2025 20:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2025 17:29 Yurie wrote:On April 27 2025 16:58 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/apr/26/antisemitism-us-jews-free-speechThe Trump administration claims that its moves to defund universities, arrest and deport students and force schools to demote or monitor professors are meant to combat antisemitism, protect Jewish students and remove “Hamas-supporting” foreign nationals from the country. American pro-Israel groups including the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), Hillel International, Aipac and the Heritage Foundation have united behind Republican measures to crack down on higher education and its putative antisemitism. Religiously identified groups such as the Orthodox Union and Christians United for Israel have joined the chorus, celebrating the punishment of supposedly antisemitic students and professors. Whatever their varied pasts, today’s pro-Israel groups are not about protecting American Jews. Instead, they are allies in Maga’s war on free speech, academic freedom and the US’s democratic society itself. This shows how badly the definition of antisemitism has been twisted by the Israeli government and its advocacy groups worlwide. The US government is now targeting American jews who disagree with the way Israel is conducting its genocide, at the behest of pro-Israel groups. Now what is really antisemitic? Disagreeing with Israel's actions, or the US government targeting jews for arrest for speaking out? I think this separation is quite clear in Europe. Jews are more unpopular than they were but far from large organized hate crimes against them. While Israel as a state is unpopular and people would not object to them being banned at sporting events, Eurovision, stop military sales etc. What are you guys waiting for? Could do sanctions on Netanyahu and others that specifically have used genocidal rhetoric and/or the country at large. I mean there's plenty the EU and European countries generally could be doing but aren't. Plenty their populations could join people like stilt and myself in demanding from their politicians,but aren't. Plenty people could be contributing to right here, but aren't. What exact "misjudgement" do you want me to admit to? Pointing out the material fact that the Biden administration was aiding and abetting a genocide (or ethnic cleansing campaign if one insists), and their insistence on doing that was not only morally indefensible, it was basically electoral malpractice? If you find yourself telling people they shouldn't point out their nation's political leadership is, as a matter of fact, aiding and abetting genocide (or EC) because you believe it would hurt their chance of getting reelected, you've already lost the plot. I know for a fact my government is immune to pressure on this subject. They have a huge majority and already essentially have consent to do whatever the fuck they want, and they obviously don't want to fuck with Israel, because the current people in charge of Labour got there working very closely with the Israel lobby to discredit and character assassinate Corbyn. There is no route in the UK to a government that doesn't sell weapons to Israel. Ireland has a good record on Israel. Is it the government or the voters that are immune to pressure to act? Seems to me to be both and a bit of a responsibility diffuser. Somehow it ends up basically no one's fault that these ostensibly democratic countries around the Western world have been aiding and abetting a genocide for over a year. As if neither the voters or the people they vote for have agency.
A bit of both, obviously, but I don't see it as primarily the voters' fault when their choice is between a bunch of Israel supporting parties.
For most in the UK, Israel simply isn't a deciding factor in elections. People are far more likely to vote on the economy etc.
Personally I would assign a huge amount of blame to Labour, but I seem to be doing that alot recently, so I don't know if I'm just extremely biased against them at this point.
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This idea that Israel is somehow seen as a pressing issue in local politics is so weird.
But good job from the american left calling Biden genocide Joe, you sure helped the cause! Booked your Hotel in Gaza yet?
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On May 06 2025 12:04 WombaT wrote:
Ever notice that, ineffectual as it was most interjections from the world at large occurred during the Biden administration? Not because it would necessarily listen, but at least the possibility of pressure might swing things? It Europe has a sway in such things, it’s only with a potentially receptive US you can do shit. If you elect a ‘Israel can do whatever it wants’ US government you limit those options considerably.
Nothing at all was happening under Biden, we now have a bunch of people coming out telling everywhere that the pressure that he put on Netanyahu was nonexistent, there was a full report on it on Channel 13 in Israel but that's on TV so I'll use this link instead. All of these people should see charges along with Netanyahu.
On May 06 2025 15:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
As if neither the voters or the people they vote for have agency.
...which, for the voters, is the case. They don't have agency.
I feel like this is just a desperate quest to be important, really. It was important to vote for Harris so that things would be different, except that, no, it wasn't. It was important to NOT for Harris so that things would be different, except that, no, it wasn't.
Always found this blame game boring and that won't change now. We don't need to find out who is to blame, we know who is to blame, they showed them doing it on the news, it's not a big mystery that needs solving.
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On May 06 2025 16:43 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2025 15:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 06 2025 14:54 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 06 2025 12:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 06 2025 12:04 WombaT wrote:On May 06 2025 00:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 05 2025 23:00 Jankisa wrote:
I fail to see how killing 50 k + people with more then half being women and children is not really ugly.
Not to mention all the record numbers of killed journalists, aid workers, emergency responders, volunteers etc. Not ugly enough to lose Europe's support. There isn't really even a coherent way to rationalize not sanctioning Israel. On May 05 2025 20:03 Broetchenholer wrote:What can we do? Padding ourselves on the back that we won the argument on an internet forum? As long as our governments are spineless cowards + Show Spoiler + that treat the conflict as something like what's happening where even we do not care, like africa, there is nothing to do. The issue for Palestinians is that there are killed by a regime that we identify as somewhat part of our responsibility and accountability but in the end not enough to force our governments to affect change. I believe trying to motivate/organize people in the US (and people who take interest in US/or their own politics) toward electoral or radical political efforts to change those governments is helpful and necessary. More people joining those efforts would funnily enough address Jankisa's complaint. One of the big problems is that so many democracy enjoyers (basically all of them here) don't want to do the work a democracy takes. That and/or they have been deluded into believing that "the work a democracy takes" means simply periodically voting. What’s Europe going to do? Aside from the fact that Europe isn’t a monolithic continent and attitudes and actions re Israel vary considerably. Despite that direct economic entanglements aren’t exactly huge so there’s not a huge amount of leverage there. + Show Spoiler +Also as continents go, already the most vociferous and active on the issue. Ever notice that, ineffectual as it was most interjections from the world at large occurred during the Biden administration? Not because it would necessarily listen, but at least the possibility of pressure might swing things? It Europe has a sway in such things, it’s only with a potentially receptive US you can do shit. If you elect a ‘Israel can do whatever it wants’ US government you limit those options considerably.
You were told this repeatedly.
Instead you went with ‘Genocide Joe’ rhetoric for fucking months, and claim no misjudgement whatsoever. While preaching and pontificating the whole time.
One can only presume you’ve personally done a fuckload to help the Palestinian cause, otherwise such a piousness would be ridiculous right? Well...On April 27 2025 20:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2025 17:29 Yurie wrote:On April 27 2025 16:58 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/apr/26/antisemitism-us-jews-free-speechThe Trump administration claims that its moves to defund universities, arrest and deport students and force schools to demote or monitor professors are meant to combat antisemitism, protect Jewish students and remove “Hamas-supporting” foreign nationals from the country. American pro-Israel groups including the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), Hillel International, Aipac and the Heritage Foundation have united behind Republican measures to crack down on higher education and its putative antisemitism. Religiously identified groups such as the Orthodox Union and Christians United for Israel have joined the chorus, celebrating the punishment of supposedly antisemitic students and professors. Whatever their varied pasts, today’s pro-Israel groups are not about protecting American Jews. Instead, they are allies in Maga’s war on free speech, academic freedom and the US’s democratic society itself. This shows how badly the definition of antisemitism has been twisted by the Israeli government and its advocacy groups worlwide. The US government is now targeting American jews who disagree with the way Israel is conducting its genocide, at the behest of pro-Israel groups. Now what is really antisemitic? Disagreeing with Israel's actions, or the US government targeting jews for arrest for speaking out? I think this separation is quite clear in Europe. Jews are more unpopular than they were but far from large organized hate crimes against them. While Israel as a state is unpopular and people would not object to them being banned at sporting events, Eurovision, stop military sales etc. What are you guys waiting for? Could do sanctions on Netanyahu and others that specifically have used genocidal rhetoric and/or the country at large. I mean there's plenty the EU and European countries generally could be doing but aren't. Plenty their populations could join people like stilt and myself in demanding from their politicians,but aren't. Plenty people could be contributing to right here, but aren't. What exact "misjudgement" do you want me to admit to? Pointing out the material fact that the Biden administration was aiding and abetting a genocide (or ethnic cleansing campaign if one insists), and their insistence on doing that was not only morally indefensible, it was basically electoral malpractice? If you find yourself telling people they shouldn't point out their nation's political leadership is, as a matter of fact, aiding and abetting genocide (or EC) because you believe it would hurt their chance of getting reelected, you've already lost the plot. I know for a fact my government is immune to pressure on this subject. They have a huge majority and already essentially have consent to do whatever the fuck they want, and they obviously don't want to fuck with Israel, because the current people in charge of Labour got there working very closely with the Israel lobby to discredit and character assassinate Corbyn. There is no route in the UK to a government that doesn't sell weapons to Israel. Ireland has a good record on Israel. Is it the government or the voters that are immune to pressure to act? Seems to me to be both and a bit of a responsibility diffuser. Somehow it ends up basically no one's fault that these ostensibly democratic countries around the Western world have been aiding and abetting a genocide for over a year. As if neither the voters or the people they vote for have agency. The people of Ireland are quite supportive of Palestinians afaict. In N. Ireland the dynamic is pretty specific. One of the British governors of Jerusalem even said that Israel could be a, quote, "loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of hostile Arabism."
...
Today, Irish support for the Palestinians feels most pronounced in Northern Ireland, which is governed by the British and where Irish nationalists compare their situation to Palestinians under Israeli occupation. www.npr.orgAlso, religion more specifically: Religious narratives play a “massive role” in explaining support for Israel among both Irish, British and American Christians, Bumin said.
In particular, belief in the Abrahamic covenant – God’s biblical promise to the Jewish people – emerged as one of the top predictors of pro-Israel sentiment.
“For people who say they support Israel in all three countries we surveyed, the idea that Israel is important for the fulfillment of biblical prophecies is of major significance,” Bumin said.
Theological differences between Christian denominations play an important role, with Catholics in Ireland almost 80% less likely to support Israel than Protestants, the survey found. www.timesofisrael.comThe bold is quite the euphemism. I'd never considered looking at this along religious lines within Christianity and I'm not sure it holds up. Northern Ireland is a pretty specific case, where it could also just be that the Catholics vibe more with whatever Ireland is doing rather than having an a priori religious reason. That said, Francis was fairly critical of Israel, so Catholics might listen to that. However I'm not sure it holds. Italy, the European bastion of Catholicism is totally fine with Netanyahu. Spain, another bastion of Catholicism, is not. Poland, yet another Catholic nation, seems totally indifferent (almost allowed Netanyahu to show up to the Auschwitz memorial, but is overall at least somewhat critical). Nor do I see any particular religious underpinnings in how South America talks about Israel. Argentina doesn't give a fuck and has voted against some UN mandates condemning Israeli behaviour. Brazil is more critical. Both are deeply Catholic nations. However all these Catholic nations are ruled by different political alliances. Spain and Brazil: social democrats. Ireland and Poland: centric parties/coalitions. Argentina and Italy: right wing. I find it hard to draw a comparison in protestant nations, but I'll grant you that even their more leftish governments aren't as outspoken against Israel as the more leftish Catholic ones: Denmark voted against recognising the Palestinian state in 2024 (although the rest of Scandinavia do recognise it). Germany under Scholz was indifferent at best. Finland lets its actions (doing arms deals) speak louder than its words (critical). But I find that the hypothesis that this is due to different flavours of Christianity rather than other factors unsubstantiated.
Poland's relationship with Isreal is tough and complicated. In the last 30 years whenever there was a disagreement they pooled strings in US and pressured us that way. We also buy some military gear from their military sector, so we do not want to break that connection.
On top of that while Poland as a whole might be sympathetic to small nations fight for independence the religious aspect doesn't help. A secular palestinian organization would have more support.
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I think the reasons that countries are not putting economic pressure to the extent of sanctions on Israel are the same reasons they are not on Turkey. They do seem to be doing a lot more public political pressure, which makes me guess is there is a lot behind the scenes, but really who knows on that. I've yet to see a free the Kurds or death to Turkey rally. Not that they are exactly equal, you will never find exact equivalencies. But Turkey had killed journalists, they have used their extremely powerful drones to kill peaceful protestors. They took over another country with the proxy army, which has committed many war crimes against civilians and so on.
I don't agree with the reason for not condemning either, Canada's approach to Israel seems somewhat reasonable with only supplying for the iron dome.
If I was to boil it down, countries in the west hold their allies, countries like Israel and Turkey, to way lower standards than they do their enemies (not unlike how political parties operate.)
What is stranger and less consistent is how people, and the nonMSM are all over Israel and you never hear a peep about Turkey? They are basically next door. I barely hear anything about some of the awful shit happening in Africa, but that seems different enough that I can come up with some reasons why that happens. And I still think I hear more about it than I do Turkey, unless I really go looking.
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It seems highly likely that people will not develop an ethical backbone and be principled before they face the horrors firsthand. We are likely to accept extermination camps in the USA, shooting climate refugees at the borders, extermination of immigrants, executions of leftwing opposition, and the total eradication of Palestinians as long as we are shielded from seeing the dead bodies with our own eyes. Only when we feel so sick about ourselves that we actually puke do we realise the need to stop and change. It seems that many have the stomach for much more currently. Thus, we are likely to have a horrific decade or two in front of us.
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On May 06 2025 20:03 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2025 12:04 WombaT wrote:
Ever notice that, ineffectual as it was most interjections from the world at large occurred during the Biden administration? Not because it would necessarily listen, but at least the possibility of pressure might swing things? It Europe has a sway in such things, it’s only with a potentially receptive US you can do shit. If you elect a ‘Israel can do whatever it wants’ US government you limit those options considerably.
Nothing at all was happening under Biden, we now have a bunch of people coming out telling everywhere that the pressure that he put on Netanyahu was nonexistent, there was a full report on it on Channel 13 in Israel but that's on TV so I'll use this link instead. All of these people should see charges along with Netanyahu. Show nested quote +On May 06 2025 15:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
As if neither the voters or the people they vote for have agency.
... which, for the voters, is the case. They don't have agency.I feel like this is just a desperate quest to be important, really. It was important to vote for Harris so that things would be different, except that, no, it wasn't. It was important to NOT for Harris so that things would be different, except that, no, it wasn't. Always found this blame game boring and that won't change now. We don't need to find out who is to blame, we know who is to blame, they showed them doing it on the news, it's not a big mystery that needs solving.
Well it would seem in an ostensible democracy that would be catastrophic, and sort of determinative of what needs to happen next?
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On May 06 2025 21:33 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2025 20:03 Nebuchad wrote:On May 06 2025 12:04 WombaT wrote:
Ever notice that, ineffectual as it was most interjections from the world at large occurred during the Biden administration? Not because it would necessarily listen, but at least the possibility of pressure might swing things? It Europe has a sway in such things, it’s only with a potentially receptive US you can do shit. If you elect a ‘Israel can do whatever it wants’ US government you limit those options considerably.
Nothing at all was happening under Biden, we now have a bunch of people coming out telling everywhere that the pressure that he put on Netanyahu was nonexistent, there was a full report on it on Channel 13 in Israel but that's on TV so I'll use this link instead. All of these people should see charges along with Netanyahu. On May 06 2025 15:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
As if neither the voters or the people they vote for have agency.
... which, for the voters, is the case. They don't have agency.I feel like this is just a desperate quest to be important, really. It was important to vote for Harris so that things would be different, except that, no, it wasn't. It was important to NOT for Harris so that things would be different, except that, no, it wasn't. Always found this blame game boring and that won't change now. We don't need to find out who is to blame, we know who is to blame, they showed them doing it on the news, it's not a big mystery that needs solving. Well it would seem in an ostensible democracy that would be catastrophic, and sort of determinative of what needs to happen next?
So which is it, are they in part to blame for the genocide because of their agency as voters, or should they revolt immediately because they don't have agency as voters?
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On May 06 2025 21:44 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2025 21:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 06 2025 20:03 Nebuchad wrote:On May 06 2025 12:04 WombaT wrote:
Ever notice that, ineffectual as it was most interjections from the world at large occurred during the Biden administration? Not because it would necessarily listen, but at least the possibility of pressure might swing things? It Europe has a sway in such things, it’s only with a potentially receptive US you can do shit. If you elect a ‘Israel can do whatever it wants’ US government you limit those options considerably.
Nothing at all was happening under Biden, we now have a bunch of people coming out telling everywhere that the pressure that he put on Netanyahu was nonexistent, there was a full report on it on Channel 13 in Israel but that's on TV so I'll use this link instead. All of these people should see charges along with Netanyahu. On May 06 2025 15:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
As if neither the voters or the people they vote for have agency.
... which, for the voters, is the case. They don't have agency.I feel like this is just a desperate quest to be important, really. It was important to vote for Harris so that things would be different, except that, no, it wasn't. It was important to NOT for Harris so that things would be different, except that, no, it wasn't. Always found this blame game boring and that won't change now. We don't need to find out who is to blame, we know who is to blame, they showed them doing it on the news, it's not a big mystery that needs solving. Well it would seem in an ostensible democracy that would be catastrophic, and sort of determinative of what needs to happen next? So which is it, are they in part to blame for the genocide because of their agency as voters, or should they revolt immediately because they don't have agency as voters?
I suppose that somewhat depends on what they believe. If they believe voters have agency and revolt is unnecessary they are responsible (for their opposition to what is necessary). If they believe they/voters don't have agency (that's not democracy) and revolt is necessary (and they are making a good faith effort toward it), then they aren't responsible, because it's not a democracy and they don't have agency as voters.
I obviously fall in the "revolt is necessary" group.
This "I have no agency as a voter, voting is the only path out" contradiction is nonsensical.
EDIT: I should mention I don't think most people on TL extend the same grace to Russian citizens that they'd like extended to them in what are ostensibly much more legitimately democratic countries.
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EPT
