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United States42965 Posts
On April 16 2025 08:48 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2025 08:37 KwarK wrote:On April 16 2025 08:07 Nebuchad wrote:On April 16 2025 07:57 BlackJack wrote:On April 16 2025 06:30 Nebuchad wrote:On April 16 2025 06:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 16 2025 04:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 16 2025 04:13 KwarK wrote:On April 16 2025 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
Looks like KwarK wins again Nice to see you here GH. Thanks for your support. You still making up quotes and ascribing them to other people as your main form of debate? I've learned a trick or two from you. You realize I didn't make up the quote that I included the full text and linked the original of, or have you completely lost touch with reality? Except the quoted text is not what you ascribed him saying. He said "America is getting better." You said he said "Trump winning the election is a sign America is getting better." It's not even close to the same thing. He even explained your error in his next post. This pisses me off because it's an incredibly simple point to understand. It's a "two steps forward one step back" kind of thing. An 8 year old could understand this point. It doesn't mean every step is in the right direction but in the long run you're moving in the right direction. The only reason to misunderstand this is through ignorance or malice, so take your pick. This happens way to often on this forum (usually to me tbh). No matter how obvious the misinterpretation is more people will jump in and agree with the uncharitable interpretation just to win internet arguments, I guess. But the one person that I never see doing this is Kwark. Maybe he just grasps the English language better than most people here. We often disagree but the one thing I can be sure if I'm arguing with him is that the disagreement will be an ideological one and not because he has done a shit job at understanding my point. I suspect the reason why this happens to you a lot is because people expect other people in general to post with some sort of objective in mind. Like, we're in this context in which Trump is fucking everything up, and the large majority of your posting is still about how Democrats are slightly unfair in their Trump criticism when it comes to this point of detail or that point of detail, or how there's this DEI scandal about some woke thing somewhere; the natural inclination for a lot of people is that you must be doing it for a reason, and then they search for that reason. Is it because you support this, or that; they're trying to figure it out. Drone made a good point yesterday that you were probably not doing it with an objective, that you were just nitpicking for the sake of it, and that made sense to me. I would then add that you've spent so long on team "Democrats are bad" and it feels comfortable to continue being on that team no matter what happens now. But I could be wrong too! There's no way to tell, really. Or as someone who grasps the English language better than most people once said, On March 26 2025 08:10 KwarK wrote:
Blackjack isn’t arguing that it wasn’t a Nazi salute, he’s clear that it was. He’s arguing for the sake of arguing. His point is that it’s possible for someone, but not him, to be really bad at identifying salutes or something and for that person, who isn’t him, to be confused. You’ve got to remember that blackjack’s posts are essentially meaningless. In general, yes. If you saw an isolated comment on Reddit of someone challenging claims like "there are no upsides to tariffs" or "there is zero risk of adverse events from the COVID vaccine" then 9 times out of 10 that person is going to be someone that supports Trump's tariffs or opposes taking the COVID vaccine so you can make some assumptions about positions they hold. But surely you see how incredibly stupid it is to think that Kwark, of all people, is making the point that Trump getting elected is a sign that America is getting better. It's even more stupid when he immediately clarifies what he meant and instead of being like "oh okay" to be like "nah... bro... no take backsies." Making the faulty assumptions is one thing. Doubling down on the faulty assumptions after they've clarified their statement is a whole other ballgame. Sure yeah that makes sense (except the part about thinking that America is getting better). Wait, what? What I originally said was that America had gotten better since the days of the Confederacy. That was the specific example I used. The US has had some real monsters in charge. Plus that time it broke into two countries because half of them wanted to own people. GH misquoted that to pretend I said that Trump was preferable to Hillary when in fact I was saying that Trump was preferable to the Confederacy. But now that all the misquotes have been cleared up at exhausting length and it's clear that this is just an outright statement of preference between Trump and the Confederacy you're landing on team Confederacy. That's a weird take boy. There is a way to make this argument tbh (like this for example ), but nah I don't feel it in my core just yet. What I'm reading is "is getting better", not "has gotten better", which states that there's currently a process going in the right direction, and that's silly. But I don't think you or I care that much?
I mean if you're going to insist that it doesn't make sense to think that America has trended up historically since the literal Confederacy then I'm going to ask you to expand upon that. It's reasonable for me to ask what about the Confederacy you're specifically yearning for.
If you're not going to insist that then you are, of course, free to start agreeing that historically speaking the trend has been up since then. Nobody here is making you defend the Confederacy, I think that's just you being contrarian.
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On April 16 2025 08:51 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2025 08:48 Nebuchad wrote:On April 16 2025 08:37 KwarK wrote:On April 16 2025 08:07 Nebuchad wrote:On April 16 2025 07:57 BlackJack wrote:On April 16 2025 06:30 Nebuchad wrote:On April 16 2025 06:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 16 2025 04:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 16 2025 04:13 KwarK wrote:On April 16 2025 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
Looks like KwarK wins again Nice to see you here GH. Thanks for your support. You still making up quotes and ascribing them to other people as your main form of debate? I've learned a trick or two from you. You realize I didn't make up the quote that I included the full text and linked the original of, or have you completely lost touch with reality? Except the quoted text is not what you ascribed him saying. He said "America is getting better." You said he said "Trump winning the election is a sign America is getting better." It's not even close to the same thing. He even explained your error in his next post. This pisses me off because it's an incredibly simple point to understand. It's a "two steps forward one step back" kind of thing. An 8 year old could understand this point. It doesn't mean every step is in the right direction but in the long run you're moving in the right direction. The only reason to misunderstand this is through ignorance or malice, so take your pick. This happens way to often on this forum (usually to me tbh). No matter how obvious the misinterpretation is more people will jump in and agree with the uncharitable interpretation just to win internet arguments, I guess. But the one person that I never see doing this is Kwark. Maybe he just grasps the English language better than most people here. We often disagree but the one thing I can be sure if I'm arguing with him is that the disagreement will be an ideological one and not because he has done a shit job at understanding my point. I suspect the reason why this happens to you a lot is because people expect other people in general to post with some sort of objective in mind. Like, we're in this context in which Trump is fucking everything up, and the large majority of your posting is still about how Democrats are slightly unfair in their Trump criticism when it comes to this point of detail or that point of detail, or how there's this DEI scandal about some woke thing somewhere; the natural inclination for a lot of people is that you must be doing it for a reason, and then they search for that reason. Is it because you support this, or that; they're trying to figure it out. Drone made a good point yesterday that you were probably not doing it with an objective, that you were just nitpicking for the sake of it, and that made sense to me. I would then add that you've spent so long on team "Democrats are bad" and it feels comfortable to continue being on that team no matter what happens now. But I could be wrong too! There's no way to tell, really. Or as someone who grasps the English language better than most people once said, On March 26 2025 08:10 KwarK wrote:
Blackjack isn’t arguing that it wasn’t a Nazi salute, he’s clear that it was. He’s arguing for the sake of arguing. His point is that it’s possible for someone, but not him, to be really bad at identifying salutes or something and for that person, who isn’t him, to be confused. You’ve got to remember that blackjack’s posts are essentially meaningless. In general, yes. If you saw an isolated comment on Reddit of someone challenging claims like "there are no upsides to tariffs" or "there is zero risk of adverse events from the COVID vaccine" then 9 times out of 10 that person is going to be someone that supports Trump's tariffs or opposes taking the COVID vaccine so you can make some assumptions about positions they hold. But surely you see how incredibly stupid it is to think that Kwark, of all people, is making the point that Trump getting elected is a sign that America is getting better. It's even more stupid when he immediately clarifies what he meant and instead of being like "oh okay" to be like "nah... bro... no take backsies." Making the faulty assumptions is one thing. Doubling down on the faulty assumptions after they've clarified their statement is a whole other ballgame. Sure yeah that makes sense (except the part about thinking that America is getting better). Wait, what? What I originally said was that America had gotten better since the days of the Confederacy. That was the specific example I used. The US has had some real monsters in charge. Plus that time it broke into two countries because half of them wanted to own people. GH misquoted that to pretend I said that Trump was preferable to Hillary when in fact I was saying that Trump was preferable to the Confederacy. But now that all the misquotes have been cleared up at exhausting length and it's clear that this is just an outright statement of preference between Trump and the Confederacy you're landing on team Confederacy. That's a weird take boy. There is a way to make this argument tbh (like this for example ), but nah I don't feel it in my core just yet. What I'm reading is "is getting better", not "has gotten better", which states that there's currently a process going in the right direction, and that's silly. But I don't think you or I care that much? I mean if you're going to insist that it doesn't make sense to think that America has trended up historically since the literal Confederacy then I'm going to ask you to expand upon that. It's reasonable for me to ask what about the Confederacy you're specifically yearning for. If you're not going to insist that then you are, of course, free to start agreeing that historically speaking the trend has been up since then.
Ok let's do that
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United States42965 Posts
You might want to edit your pro-Confederacy post from 30 mins ago given it no longer reflects your views.
On April 16 2025 08:07 Nebuchad wrote:
Sure yeah that makes sense (except the part about thinking that America is getting better (historically speaking since the days of the Confederacy)).
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On April 16 2025 09:04 KwarK wrote:You might want to edit your pro-Confederacy post from 30 mins ago given it no longer reflects your views. Show nested quote +On April 16 2025 08:07 Nebuchad wrote:
Sure yeah that makes sense (except the part about thinking that America is getting better (historically speaking since the days of the Confederacy)).
Thanks for the advice but nah the post is fine. And even if it wasn't fine I've learned from you that I can just wait a few months and then pretend I wrote something else.
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On April 16 2025 08:37 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2025 08:07 Nebuchad wrote:On April 16 2025 07:57 BlackJack wrote:On April 16 2025 06:30 Nebuchad wrote:On April 16 2025 06:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 16 2025 04:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 16 2025 04:13 KwarK wrote:On April 16 2025 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
Looks like KwarK wins again Nice to see you here GH. Thanks for your support. You still making up quotes and ascribing them to other people as your main form of debate? I've learned a trick or two from you. You realize I didn't make up the quote that I included the full text and linked the original of, or have you completely lost touch with reality? Except the quoted text is not what you ascribed him saying. He said "America is getting better." You said he said "Trump winning the election is a sign America is getting better." It's not even close to the same thing. He even explained your error in his next post. This pisses me off because it's an incredibly simple point to understand. It's a "two steps forward one step back" kind of thing. An 8 year old could understand this point. It doesn't mean every step is in the right direction but in the long run you're moving in the right direction. The only reason to misunderstand this is through ignorance or malice, so take your pick. This happens way to often on this forum (usually to me tbh). No matter how obvious the misinterpretation is more people will jump in and agree with the uncharitable interpretation just to win internet arguments, I guess. But the one person that I never see doing this is Kwark. Maybe he just grasps the English language better than most people here. We often disagree but the one thing I can be sure if I'm arguing with him is that the disagreement will be an ideological one and not because he has done a shit job at understanding my point. I suspect the reason why this happens to you a lot is because people expect other people in general to post with some sort of objective in mind. Like, we're in this context in which Trump is fucking everything up, and the large majority of your posting is still about how Democrats are slightly unfair in their Trump criticism when it comes to this point of detail or that point of detail, or how there's this DEI scandal about some woke thing somewhere; the natural inclination for a lot of people is that you must be doing it for a reason, and then they search for that reason. Is it because you support this, or that; they're trying to figure it out. Drone made a good point yesterday that you were probably not doing it with an objective, that you were just nitpicking for the sake of it, and that made sense to me. I would then add that you've spent so long on team "Democrats are bad" and it feels comfortable to continue being on that team no matter what happens now. But I could be wrong too! There's no way to tell, really. Or as someone who grasps the English language better than most people once said, On March 26 2025 08:10 KwarK wrote:
Blackjack isn’t arguing that it wasn’t a Nazi salute, he’s clear that it was. He’s arguing for the sake of arguing. His point is that it’s possible for someone, but not him, to be really bad at identifying salutes or something and for that person, who isn’t him, to be confused. You’ve got to remember that blackjack’s posts are essentially meaningless. In general, yes. If you saw an isolated comment on Reddit of someone challenging claims like "there are no upsides to tariffs" or "there is zero risk of adverse events from the COVID vaccine" then 9 times out of 10 that person is going to be someone that supports Trump's tariffs or opposes taking the COVID vaccine so you can make some assumptions about positions they hold. But surely you see how incredibly stupid it is to think that Kwark, of all people, is making the point that Trump getting elected is a sign that America is getting better. It's even more stupid when he immediately clarifies what he meant and instead of being like "oh okay" to be like "nah... bro... no take backsies." Making the faulty assumptions is one thing. Doubling down on the faulty assumptions after they've clarified their statement is a whole other ballgame. Sure yeah that makes sense (except the part about thinking that America is getting better). Wait, what? What I originally said was that America had gotten better since the days of the Confederacy. That was the specific example I used. Show nested quote +The US has had some real monsters in charge. Plus that time it broke into two countries because half of them wanted to own people. GH misquoted that to pretend I said that Trump was preferable to Hillary when in fact I was saying that Trump was preferable to the Confederacy. + Show Spoiler +But now that all the misquotes have been cleared up at exhausting length and it's clear that this is just an outright statement of preference between Trump and the Confederacy you're landing on team Confederacy. That's a weird take boy.
Since you're crashing out so hard I don't know if this is you being confused or intentionally obtuse. It had nothing to do with Hillary Clinton lol?
The context was that you were arguing China is getting worse (from some unspecified time/reference) and the US is getting better.
On August 14 2023 15:52 KwarK wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The US today isn’t doing the same stuff as your historical examples and a unipolar world has been extremely good for world peace. The world has never been more peaceful than it has been under US hegemony. The US is far from a perfect hegemon but it hasn’t annexed anywhere in a few decades and doesn’t plan to. Your problem seems to be that you’re confused by the linear passage of time. The US has been getting less shitty over time, China more shitty. + Show Spoiler +I expect this trend to continue. You point to US boarding schools for the indigenous as if you think they’re about to bring them back. You point to Hawaii as if the US is on the verge of colonizing the Philippines again. It’s not. Whereas China’s historical trend of weakness is very clearly reversing. Looking at China’s previous inability to turn its imperial ambitions into military victory and projecting that forwards is as absurd as assuming the US is on the verge of setting up boarding schools in the Philippines.
Perhaps you could take a minute to listen to the nations who have borders with China before deciding that you, as an educated western intellectual, must know better than them. Perhaps you’re not the best qualified to address the issue of whether China’s claims to Taiwan have merit. You cheer for the Chinese tiger to be unleashed on the people of east Asia without the slightest notion of what it means for those people. But you don’t care because you, as an American, believe you know better. Not because of how you feel about China either, simply because of how it makes you feel better about America’s place in the world. If they must suffer for you to see America humbled then that’s a price you’re willing to pay.
It’s pure horseshoe with you. You arrive in the exact same arrogant western mindset as those you despise because ultimately these places only exist in your mind insofar as they’re relevant to American hegemony.
The US (and the other western imperial powers) were extremely shitty in East Asia in 1930. Would you cheer for Imperial Japan?
Hence me including Gors' post about the world relying on China to keep the US in Check.
On April 10 2025 20:17 Gorsameth wrote:Nothing mature about it, Trump got to place 10% blanket tariffs without a reciprocal response. Sad that the world is having to look to China of all places to teach America not to fuck around.
Contrary to your assertion that such an expectation made no sense.
On August 14 2023 15:13 KwarK wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Your anti Americanism is showing. China is worse than the US on all of those factors you named. Your theory that they’ll act as a check against the US makes no sense. + Show Spoiler +It’s like believing that adding a leopard to the lion you’re sharing a raft with will somehow make things better because at least then it’ll be a multipolar raft.
China is an expansionist imperialist power that has territorial disputes with literally all of its neighbours, constantly exchanges fire with several of them, and has recently annexed a previously free democratic territory. Following that annexation it imported its own government loyalist police, contrary to its agreements, and ruthlessly cracked down on the populace. In the next 50 years you’re far safer as a Mexican living next to the hegemonic American empire than as a Vietnamese citizen living next to China.
China is dangerous and is largely constrained by a current inability to achieve its most violent ambitions. Cheering for China’s increasing power is cheering for the next war. It’s not just not perfect, it’s an actively negative force for the world in general. You could argue the US is too, though I would disagree with that, but even then, why would you want a younger, more vigorous, more imperialist, second US thrown into the mix.
I think Neb is spot on with this and I join him in that solace: On April 16 2025 05:03 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2025 04:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 16 2025 04:13 KwarK wrote:On April 16 2025 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
Looks like KwarK wins again Nice to see you here GH. Thanks for your support. You still making up quotes and ascribing them to other people as your main form of debate? I've learned a trick or two from you. You realize I didn't make up the quote that I included the full text and linked the original of, or have you completely lost touch with reality? He does realize it, yeah. All I know from KwarK tells me that it kills him that he doesn't have a good argument and he has to stoop down to doing shit like this. I take some solace in that.
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United States42965 Posts
On April 16 2025 09:29 GreenHorizons wrote:
I also support the Confederacy
Bunch of weirdos.
But to get you back on topic, no.
On April 12 2025 09:21 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2025 00:50 GreenHorizons wrote:
Kwark was trying to convince people Trump winning the election would be a sign of how the US is getting better Fuck off
This was the exchange in question. I put Trump's 2016-2020 presidency in the broader historical context as better than the worst thing the US has done and then you decided that what I'd said was that I liked him winning (over Hillary). In addition to spending your time making up words and putting them in my mouth you're also apparently not even capable of tracking your own lies.
I also don't know what your game plan is here. Are you hoping to somehow convince me that I am actually pro-Trump? How would that work?
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Does anyone have any tips for restoring the correct function of my eyes after rolling them into the back of my head accidentally?
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Northern Ireland25642 Posts
On April 16 2025 10:30 Jockmcplop wrote:
Does anyone have any tips for restoring the correct function of my eyes after rolling them into the back of my head accidentally?
I believe you have to hang upside down, Dracula style for an extended period and they gradually slide back into position.
Now I will say this is a very unpleasant process and may take some hours, but it’s the only reliable method I’ve encountered
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On April 16 2025 04:42 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2025 04:05 stilt wrote:On April 14 2025 23:22 Billyboy wrote:On April 14 2025 19:55 stilt wrote:On April 14 2025 08:10 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2025 00:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 14 2025 00:04 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 14 2025 00:01 Billyboy wrote:
Part of Kwark's point is we don't need constant whataboutism, to counter it with whataboutism is not really a counter.
Hamas is clearly evil, it is highly unlikely they even give a shit about Palestinian "freedom". None of that changes regardless of your opinion on Israel as a country, their people, or their leadership. I guess I wasn't really responding to his point, I was responding to his use of this specific type of agitprop cos its a thing that grinds my gears. It's a modern version of scalping stories during the US's genocide of indigenous tribes. That's probably part of why it grinded your gears. It also feeds into the myth that there could be a "right way" for Hamas to fight against the ethnic cleansing/genocide of Palestinians and be deemed "the good guys" (good vs bad guys is childish analysis anyway). You don’t need to be able to explicitly define an exact right way to know that raping people is a wrong way. Only a sociopath can’t see that some things are definitely the wrong way. Are you a sociopath GH? Or are you able to recognize that the sexual violence committed by Hamas is wrong? Kwark the negationnist trying to take the morale highground is pretty ironic. Considering your constant justification of the ongoing genocide and of past israeli actions, you should keep quiet. And GH is totally right, the scalping practice was instrumentalyzed in order to justify the genocide of the indians. Do I think scalping corpses is bad ? Or rape is bad ? Yeah but what Israel is doing (or what america did) is a whole other dimension. Just like the shoah per bullet was presented by the nazi as anti partisan action. No doubt at this point you would have been one of them and portrayed the soviet resistance as terrorists while million of jews get shot at. You didn't need justification back in that time period. Geocoding, slave trade and so on were just common practice. Bow down to power or die. What Israel has done is awful, but it is in no way unique. Look just next door in Syria and in all sorts of pockets in the middle east. Same with many spots in Africa. Same with Ukraine. What is unique is how politicized it is, and how much attention it gets. Hell what Israel is doing is what some people are calling for to happen to 'Fascists". The scary sad part is how not unique it is. That they have this power imbalance and didn't do something this awful or way worse sooner is maybe unique. Slavery was heavely justified, every system has his own justification. From the Valladolid debate to today, every exploitive system finds justification, the colonization was about superior race and civilization. Today hasn't change much if you're listenning vance or netanyahu. And not that's unique indeed, the us did the same to the natives. The french try the same in Algeria but couldn't succeed thanks to logistical reason. And it's not about crushing fascim but people. It's not me who are saying that, but the israeli one, the people and their governents. Among the myriad of quotes, the one by smotrich, the minister of finance, right at the announce of the truce is the most telling : "Gaza is destroyed and disintegrated, uninhabitable, and it will remain that way. Do not be impressed by the forced joy of our enemies, this is an animal society that sanctifies death and dances on the ruins of its life. Very soon, we will erase their smile again and replace it with cries of grief and the wails of those who were left with nothing." It's not against hamas but against the whole population. None of this, or anything you have written is on how Hamas is good. They are almost as awful to their own people as thy are to the Israeli, and have absolutely no respect for their lives. All you can do is "Israel bad" and without any nuance, it is just pure hate.
I don't understand your first sentence, can you rephrase it ?
You complain I lack nuances but you don't bring any counterpoints. If anything, I would say smotrich or elyahu, or netanyahu or the likud deputy who claimed all the family of a fellow arab deputy will be murdered soon or later lack nuances and are pure hatred.
Like this quote of smotrich, that's what a Himmler would say, it's really rare to see a major politicans say those words, really, the intent is crystal clear.
Maybe you're projecting their lack of nuances on me or maybe I am wrong and sieging 2 millions of people, calling for their death though starvation, atomic bomb or saying they will suffer again those animals is nuanced.
Those are the representants of the israeli people whom web presence match these claims by the israeli ministers. I won't lose time on what you will consider as epiphenomenoms but the one happening in gaza are problematic to say the least.
Ans guess what else match these kind of declaration ? Children shred in pieces, blocus, systematic destruction and killing of civilians.
So no, I don't just "Israel is bad", I try to bring up their logics though declaration of their governents and what we know what's happening in gaza, the west bank and east jerusalem.
I provided a myriads of links with both israeli and arabs sources ponctuated with israeli, western and arabs scholars including specialist of the shoah. I might be driven by "pure hatred" but at least, my sources are diversified.
What you're doing on the other end is deflecting what's happening with two arguments :
- hamas is bad, like yeah, won't be the first time people with some shitty politics get genocided, that's totally beside the point
- it has happened before, the strong crush the weak blabla, yeah sure and some of these crushing are called genocide and didn't have, dunno, international law based on human rights at the time.
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On April 17 2025 05:56 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2025 04:42 Billyboy wrote:On April 16 2025 04:05 stilt wrote:On April 14 2025 23:22 Billyboy wrote:On April 14 2025 19:55 stilt wrote:On April 14 2025 08:10 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2025 00:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 14 2025 00:04 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 14 2025 00:01 Billyboy wrote:
Part of Kwark's point is we don't need constant whataboutism, to counter it with whataboutism is not really a counter.
Hamas is clearly evil, it is highly unlikely they even give a shit about Palestinian "freedom". None of that changes regardless of your opinion on Israel as a country, their people, or their leadership. I guess I wasn't really responding to his point, I was responding to his use of this specific type of agitprop cos its a thing that grinds my gears. It's a modern version of scalping stories during the US's genocide of indigenous tribes. That's probably part of why it grinded your gears. It also feeds into the myth that there could be a "right way" for Hamas to fight against the ethnic cleansing/genocide of Palestinians and be deemed "the good guys" (good vs bad guys is childish analysis anyway). You don’t need to be able to explicitly define an exact right way to know that raping people is a wrong way. Only a sociopath can’t see that some things are definitely the wrong way. Are you a sociopath GH? Or are you able to recognize that the sexual violence committed by Hamas is wrong? Kwark the negationnist trying to take the morale highground is pretty ironic. Considering your constant justification of the ongoing genocide and of past israeli actions, you should keep quiet. And GH is totally right, the scalping practice was instrumentalyzed in order to justify the genocide of the indians. Do I think scalping corpses is bad ? Or rape is bad ? Yeah but what Israel is doing (or what america did) is a whole other dimension. Just like the shoah per bullet was presented by the nazi as anti partisan action. No doubt at this point you would have been one of them and portrayed the soviet resistance as terrorists while million of jews get shot at. You didn't need justification back in that time period. Geocoding, slave trade and so on were just common practice. Bow down to power or die. What Israel has done is awful, but it is in no way unique. Look just next door in Syria and in all sorts of pockets in the middle east. Same with many spots in Africa. Same with Ukraine. What is unique is how politicized it is, and how much attention it gets. Hell what Israel is doing is what some people are calling for to happen to 'Fascists". The scary sad part is how not unique it is. That they have this power imbalance and didn't do something this awful or way worse sooner is maybe unique. Slavery was heavely justified, every system has his own justification. From the Valladolid debate to today, every exploitive system finds justification, the colonization was about superior race and civilization. Today hasn't change much if you're listenning vance or netanyahu. And not that's unique indeed, the us did the same to the natives. The french try the same in Algeria but couldn't succeed thanks to logistical reason. And it's not about crushing fascim but people. It's not me who are saying that, but the israeli one, the people and their governents. Among the myriad of quotes, the one by smotrich, the minister of finance, right at the announce of the truce is the most telling : "Gaza is destroyed and disintegrated, uninhabitable, and it will remain that way. Do not be impressed by the forced joy of our enemies, this is an animal society that sanctifies death and dances on the ruins of its life. Very soon, we will erase their smile again and replace it with cries of grief and the wails of those who were left with nothing." It's not against hamas but against the whole population. None of this, or anything you have written is on how Hamas is good. They are almost as awful to their own people as thy are to the Israeli, and have absolutely no respect for their lives. All you can do is "Israel bad" and without any nuance, it is just pure hate. I don't understand your first sentence, can you rephrase it ? You complain I lack nuances but you don't bring any counterpoints. If anything, I would say smotrich or elyahu, or netanyahu or the likud deputy who claimed all the family of a fellow arab deputy will be murdered soon or later lack nuances and are pure hatred. Like this quote of smotrich, that's what a Himmler would say, it's really rare to see a major politicans say those words, really, the intent is crystal clear. Maybe you're projecting their lack of nuances on me or maybe I am wrong and sieging 2 millions of people, calling for their death though starvation, atomic bomb or saying they will suffer again those animals is nuanced. Those are the representants of the israeli people whom web presence match these claims by the israeli ministers. I won't lose time on what you will consider as epiphenomenoms but the one happening in gaza are problematic to say the least. Ans guess what else match these kind of declaration ? Children shred in pieces, blocus, systematic destruction and killing of civilians. So no, I don't just "Israel is bad", I try to bring up their logics though declaration of their governents and what we know what's happening in gaza, the west bank and east jerusalem. I provided a myriads of links with both israeli and arabs sources ponctuated with israeli, western and arabs scholars including specialist of the shoah. I might be driven by "pure hatred" but at least, my sources are diversified. What you're doing on the other end is deflecting what's happening with two arguments : - hamas is bad, like yeah, won't be the first time people with some politics get genocided, that's totally beside the point - it has happened before, the strong crush the weak blabla, yeah sure and some of these crushing are called genocide and didn't have, dunno, international law based on human rights at the time.
Nope, it is that my argument that Hamas is a horrible terrible organization and awful for the Palestinians. You keep writing how bad Israel is as if it makes Hamas good. But it does not.
Basically you are falsly attributing a point of view you want to attack.
edit: unless your point is that Hamas is good because Israel is so bad that killing all of them and wiping them from the map is good?
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On April 17 2025 05:58 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2025 05:56 stilt wrote:On April 16 2025 04:42 Billyboy wrote:On April 16 2025 04:05 stilt wrote:On April 14 2025 23:22 Billyboy wrote:On April 14 2025 19:55 stilt wrote:On April 14 2025 08:10 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2025 00:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 14 2025 00:04 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 14 2025 00:01 Billyboy wrote:
Part of Kwark's point is we don't need constant whataboutism, to counter it with whataboutism is not really a counter.
Hamas is clearly evil, it is highly unlikely they even give a shit about Palestinian "freedom". None of that changes regardless of your opinion on Israel as a country, their people, or their leadership. I guess I wasn't really responding to his point, I was responding to his use of this specific type of agitprop cos its a thing that grinds my gears. It's a modern version of scalping stories during the US's genocide of indigenous tribes. That's probably part of why it grinded your gears. It also feeds into the myth that there could be a "right way" for Hamas to fight against the ethnic cleansing/genocide of Palestinians and be deemed "the good guys" (good vs bad guys is childish analysis anyway). You don’t need to be able to explicitly define an exact right way to know that raping people is a wrong way. Only a sociopath can’t see that some things are definitely the wrong way. Are you a sociopath GH? Or are you able to recognize that the sexual violence committed by Hamas is wrong? Kwark the negationnist trying to take the morale highground is pretty ironic. Considering your constant justification of the ongoing genocide and of past israeli actions, you should keep quiet. And GH is totally right, the scalping practice was instrumentalyzed in order to justify the genocide of the indians. Do I think scalping corpses is bad ? Or rape is bad ? Yeah but what Israel is doing (or what america did) is a whole other dimension. Just like the shoah per bullet was presented by the nazi as anti partisan action. No doubt at this point you would have been one of them and portrayed the soviet resistance as terrorists while million of jews get shot at. You didn't need justification back in that time period. Geocoding, slave trade and so on were just common practice. Bow down to power or die. What Israel has done is awful, but it is in no way unique. Look just next door in Syria and in all sorts of pockets in the middle east. Same with many spots in Africa. Same with Ukraine. What is unique is how politicized it is, and how much attention it gets. Hell what Israel is doing is what some people are calling for to happen to 'Fascists". The scary sad part is how not unique it is. That they have this power imbalance and didn't do something this awful or way worse sooner is maybe unique. Slavery was heavely justified, every system has his own justification. From the Valladolid debate to today, every exploitive system finds justification, the colonization was about superior race and civilization. Today hasn't change much if you're listenning vance or netanyahu. And not that's unique indeed, the us did the same to the natives. The french try the same in Algeria but couldn't succeed thanks to logistical reason. And it's not about crushing fascim but people. It's not me who are saying that, but the israeli one, the people and their governents. Among the myriad of quotes, the one by smotrich, the minister of finance, right at the announce of the truce is the most telling : "Gaza is destroyed and disintegrated, uninhabitable, and it will remain that way. Do not be impressed by the forced joy of our enemies, this is an animal society that sanctifies death and dances on the ruins of its life. Very soon, we will erase their smile again and replace it with cries of grief and the wails of those who were left with nothing." It's not against hamas but against the whole population. None of this, or anything you have written is on how Hamas is good. They are almost as awful to their own people as thy are to the Israeli, and have absolutely no respect for their lives. All you can do is "Israel bad" and without any nuance, it is just pure hate. I don't understand your first sentence, can you rephrase it ? You complain I lack nuances but you don't bring any counterpoints. If anything, I would say smotrich or elyahu, or netanyahu or the likud deputy who claimed all the family of a fellow arab deputy will be murdered soon or later lack nuances and are pure hatred. Like this quote of smotrich, that's what a Himmler would say, it's really rare to see a major politicans say those words, really, the intent is crystal clear. Maybe you're projecting their lack of nuances on me or maybe I am wrong and sieging 2 millions of people, calling for their death though starvation, atomic bomb or saying they will suffer again those animals is nuanced. Those are the representants of the israeli people whom web presence match these claims by the israeli ministers. I won't lose time on what you will consider as epiphenomenoms but the one happening in gaza are problematic to say the least. Ans guess what else match these kind of declaration ? Children shred in pieces, blocus, systematic destruction and killing of civilians. So no, I don't just "Israel is bad", I try to bring up their logics though declaration of their governents and what we know what's happening in gaza, the west bank and east jerusalem. I provided a myriads of links with both israeli and arabs sources ponctuated with israeli, western and arabs scholars including specialist of the shoah. I might be driven by "pure hatred" but at least, my sources are diversified. What you're doing on the other end is deflecting what's happening with two arguments : - hamas is bad, like yeah, won't be the first time people with some politics get genocided, that's totally beside the point - it has happened before, the strong crush the weak blabla, yeah sure and some of these crushing are called genocide and didn't have, dunno, international law based on human rights at the time. Nope, it is that my argument that Hamas is a horrible terrible organization and awful for the Palestinians. You keep writing how bad Israel is as if it makes Hamas good. But it does not. Basically you are falsly attributing a point of view you want to attack. edit: unless your point is that Hamas is good because Israel is so bad that killing all of them and wiping them from the map is good?
The issue isn't (imo) with the argument that Hamas is bad for Palestine, but that argument being used as some kind of counterpoint to the Israeli genocide being unjustifiable.
It isn't that,at all.
In fact, it comes across as a ridiculously poor attempt at distraction.
Hamas is NOT Palestine's biggest problem, not by a long way. The biggest problem is that it is being levelled and its population exterminated by Israel.
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United States42965 Posts
Kinda weird to separate Hamas and the war with Israel as if they're two completely unrelated problems. You might as well say that the biggest problem facing Germany in 1944 was the Red Army rather than the ruinous leadership of the Nazi party.
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On April 17 2025 18:15 KwarK wrote:
Kinda weird to separate Hamas and the war with Israel as if they're two completely unrelated problems. You might as well say that the biggest problem facing Germany in 1944 was the Red Army rather than the ruinous leadership of the Nazi party.
Bad analogy
If you're going to keep going on about Hamas, you might as well blame Poland's government for the Nazi invasion of Poland.
Here's a thing:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/16/no-humanitarian-aid-gaza-israeli-minister-israel-katz-hamas
Israel now finally taking ownership of blocking aid into Gaza, after a year of pretending it wasn't happening, and a year of me being told by people on here that it wasn't happening.
This after a Israel has finished leveling the place, when I was told that there's no way Israel would want to level the place, otherwise they would use nukes, right?
Incredible how the goalposts always seem to move in the same direction:
"Israel isn't/wouldn't do that"
Proof that Israel is doing 'that', they were just lying about it
"Yeah well Hamas is bad"
or the worst one:
"Its in Hamas' charter, they want to destroy Israel completely and exterminate them!" (literally said as Israel are destroying and exterminating every Palestinian man woman and child they can find)
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On April 17 2025 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2025 05:58 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 05:56 stilt wrote:On April 16 2025 04:42 Billyboy wrote:On April 16 2025 04:05 stilt wrote:On April 14 2025 23:22 Billyboy wrote:On April 14 2025 19:55 stilt wrote:On April 14 2025 08:10 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2025 00:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 14 2025 00:04 Jockmcplop wrote:
[quote]
I guess I wasn't really responding to his point, I was responding to his use of this specific type of agitprop cos its a thing that grinds my gears. It's a modern version of scalping stories during the US's genocide of indigenous tribes. That's probably part of why it grinded your gears. It also feeds into the myth that there could be a "right way" for Hamas to fight against the ethnic cleansing/genocide of Palestinians and be deemed "the good guys" (good vs bad guys is childish analysis anyway). You don’t need to be able to explicitly define an exact right way to know that raping people is a wrong way. Only a sociopath can’t see that some things are definitely the wrong way. Are you a sociopath GH? Or are you able to recognize that the sexual violence committed by Hamas is wrong? Kwark the negationnist trying to take the morale highground is pretty ironic. Considering your constant justification of the ongoing genocide and of past israeli actions, you should keep quiet. And GH is totally right, the scalping practice was instrumentalyzed in order to justify the genocide of the indians. Do I think scalping corpses is bad ? Or rape is bad ? Yeah but what Israel is doing (or what america did) is a whole other dimension. Just like the shoah per bullet was presented by the nazi as anti partisan action. No doubt at this point you would have been one of them and portrayed the soviet resistance as terrorists while million of jews get shot at. You didn't need justification back in that time period. Geocoding, slave trade and so on were just common practice. Bow down to power or die. What Israel has done is awful, but it is in no way unique. Look just next door in Syria and in all sorts of pockets in the middle east. Same with many spots in Africa. Same with Ukraine. What is unique is how politicized it is, and how much attention it gets. Hell what Israel is doing is what some people are calling for to happen to 'Fascists". The scary sad part is how not unique it is. That they have this power imbalance and didn't do something this awful or way worse sooner is maybe unique. Slavery was heavely justified, every system has his own justification. From the Valladolid debate to today, every exploitive system finds justification, the colonization was about superior race and civilization. Today hasn't change much if you're listenning vance or netanyahu. And not that's unique indeed, the us did the same to the natives. The french try the same in Algeria but couldn't succeed thanks to logistical reason. And it's not about crushing fascim but people. It's not me who are saying that, but the israeli one, the people and their governents. Among the myriad of quotes, the one by smotrich, the minister of finance, right at the announce of the truce is the most telling : "Gaza is destroyed and disintegrated, uninhabitable, and it will remain that way. Do not be impressed by the forced joy of our enemies, this is an animal society that sanctifies death and dances on the ruins of its life. Very soon, we will erase their smile again and replace it with cries of grief and the wails of those who were left with nothing." It's not against hamas but against the whole population. None of this, or anything you have written is on how Hamas is good. They are almost as awful to their own people as thy are to the Israeli, and have absolutely no respect for their lives. All you can do is "Israel bad" and without any nuance, it is just pure hate. I don't understand your first sentence, can you rephrase it ? You complain I lack nuances but you don't bring any counterpoints. If anything, I would say smotrich or elyahu, or netanyahu or the likud deputy who claimed all the family of a fellow arab deputy will be murdered soon or later lack nuances and are pure hatred. Like this quote of smotrich, that's what a Himmler would say, it's really rare to see a major politicans say those words, really, the intent is crystal clear. Maybe you're projecting their lack of nuances on me or maybe I am wrong and sieging 2 millions of people, calling for their death though starvation, atomic bomb or saying they will suffer again those animals is nuanced. Those are the representants of the israeli people whom web presence match these claims by the israeli ministers. I won't lose time on what you will consider as epiphenomenoms but the one happening in gaza are problematic to say the least. Ans guess what else match these kind of declaration ? Children shred in pieces, blocus, systematic destruction and killing of civilians. So no, I don't just "Israel is bad", I try to bring up their logics though declaration of their governents and what we know what's happening in gaza, the west bank and east jerusalem. I provided a myriads of links with both israeli and arabs sources ponctuated with israeli, western and arabs scholars including specialist of the shoah. I might be driven by "pure hatred" but at least, my sources are diversified. What you're doing on the other end is deflecting what's happening with two arguments : - hamas is bad, like yeah, won't be the first time people with some politics get genocided, that's totally beside the point - it has happened before, the strong crush the weak blabla, yeah sure and some of these crushing are called genocide and didn't have, dunno, international law based on human rights at the time. Nope, it is that my argument that Hamas is a horrible terrible organization and awful for the Palestinians. You keep writing how bad Israel is as if it makes Hamas good. But it does not. Basically you are falsly attributing a point of view you want to attack. edit: unless your point is that Hamas is good because Israel is so bad that killing all of them and wiping them from the map is good? The issue isn't (imo) with the argument that Hamas is bad for Palestine, but that argument being used as some kind of counterpoint to the Israeli genocide being unjustifiable. It isn't that,at all. In fact, it comes across as a ridiculously poor attempt at distraction. Hamas is NOT Palestine's biggest problem, not by a long way. The biggest problem is that it is being levelled and its population exterminated by Israel.
That is where the argument could go. But who knows because we never get there.
The last sentence is not a fact but an opinion and even Palestinians don't all agree. There current biggest problem is the IDF, but the IDF is doing what they are because of Hamas and the attack. (Yes they did bad stuff before, but this current situation is a direct result of the massive attack on civilian and massive hostage taking.
There is also all the discontent in Israel that would be interesting to discuss, but everything is impossible to discuss without someone (many) who deeply hate Israel and Israeli's attacking anyone who does not post some version of how evil Israel is.
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On April 17 2025 21:02 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2025 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 05:58 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 05:56 stilt wrote:On April 16 2025 04:42 Billyboy wrote:On April 16 2025 04:05 stilt wrote:On April 14 2025 23:22 Billyboy wrote:On April 14 2025 19:55 stilt wrote:On April 14 2025 08:10 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2025 00:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]It's a modern version of scalping stories during the US's genocide of indigenous tribes. That's probably part of why it grinded your gears.
It also feeds into the myth that there could be a "right way" for Hamas to fight against the ethnic cleansing/genocide of Palestinians and be deemed "the good guys" (good vs bad guys is childish analysis anyway). You don’t need to be able to explicitly define an exact right way to know that raping people is a wrong way. Only a sociopath can’t see that some things are definitely the wrong way. Are you a sociopath GH? Or are you able to recognize that the sexual violence committed by Hamas is wrong? Kwark the negationnist trying to take the morale highground is pretty ironic. Considering your constant justification of the ongoing genocide and of past israeli actions, you should keep quiet. And GH is totally right, the scalping practice was instrumentalyzed in order to justify the genocide of the indians. Do I think scalping corpses is bad ? Or rape is bad ? Yeah but what Israel is doing (or what america did) is a whole other dimension. Just like the shoah per bullet was presented by the nazi as anti partisan action. No doubt at this point you would have been one of them and portrayed the soviet resistance as terrorists while million of jews get shot at. You didn't need justification back in that time period. Geocoding, slave trade and so on were just common practice. Bow down to power or die. What Israel has done is awful, but it is in no way unique. Look just next door in Syria and in all sorts of pockets in the middle east. Same with many spots in Africa. Same with Ukraine. What is unique is how politicized it is, and how much attention it gets. Hell what Israel is doing is what some people are calling for to happen to 'Fascists". The scary sad part is how not unique it is. That they have this power imbalance and didn't do something this awful or way worse sooner is maybe unique. Slavery was heavely justified, every system has his own justification. From the Valladolid debate to today, every exploitive system finds justification, the colonization was about superior race and civilization. Today hasn't change much if you're listenning vance or netanyahu. And not that's unique indeed, the us did the same to the natives. The french try the same in Algeria but couldn't succeed thanks to logistical reason. And it's not about crushing fascim but people. It's not me who are saying that, but the israeli one, the people and their governents. Among the myriad of quotes, the one by smotrich, the minister of finance, right at the announce of the truce is the most telling : "Gaza is destroyed and disintegrated, uninhabitable, and it will remain that way. Do not be impressed by the forced joy of our enemies, this is an animal society that sanctifies death and dances on the ruins of its life. Very soon, we will erase their smile again and replace it with cries of grief and the wails of those who were left with nothing." It's not against hamas but against the whole population. None of this, or anything you have written is on how Hamas is good. They are almost as awful to their own people as thy are to the Israeli, and have absolutely no respect for their lives. All you can do is "Israel bad" and without any nuance, it is just pure hate. I don't understand your first sentence, can you rephrase it ? You complain I lack nuances but you don't bring any counterpoints. If anything, I would say smotrich or elyahu, or netanyahu or the likud deputy who claimed all the family of a fellow arab deputy will be murdered soon or later lack nuances and are pure hatred. Like this quote of smotrich, that's what a Himmler would say, it's really rare to see a major politicans say those words, really, the intent is crystal clear. Maybe you're projecting their lack of nuances on me or maybe I am wrong and sieging 2 millions of people, calling for their death though starvation, atomic bomb or saying they will suffer again those animals is nuanced. Those are the representants of the israeli people whom web presence match these claims by the israeli ministers. I won't lose time on what you will consider as epiphenomenoms but the one happening in gaza are problematic to say the least. Ans guess what else match these kind of declaration ? Children shred in pieces, blocus, systematic destruction and killing of civilians. So no, I don't just "Israel is bad", I try to bring up their logics though declaration of their governents and what we know what's happening in gaza, the west bank and east jerusalem. I provided a myriads of links with both israeli and arabs sources ponctuated with israeli, western and arabs scholars including specialist of the shoah. I might be driven by "pure hatred" but at least, my sources are diversified. What you're doing on the other end is deflecting what's happening with two arguments : - hamas is bad, like yeah, won't be the first time people with some politics get genocided, that's totally beside the point - it has happened before, the strong crush the weak blabla, yeah sure and some of these crushing are called genocide and didn't have, dunno, international law based on human rights at the time. Nope, it is that my argument that Hamas is a horrible terrible organization and awful for the Palestinians. You keep writing how bad Israel is as if it makes Hamas good. But it does not. Basically you are falsly attributing a point of view you want to attack. edit: unless your point is that Hamas is good because Israel is so bad that killing all of them and wiping them from the map is good? The issue isn't (imo) with the argument that Hamas is bad for Palestine, but that argument being used as some kind of counterpoint to the Israeli genocide being unjustifiable. It isn't that,at all. In fact, it comes across as a ridiculously poor attempt at distraction. Hamas is NOT Palestine's biggest problem, not by a long way. The biggest problem is that it is being levelled and its population exterminated by Israel. That is where the argument could go. But who knows because we never get there. The last sentence is not a fact but an opinion and even Palestinians don't all agree. There current biggest problem is the IDF, but the IDF is doing what they are because of Hamas and the attack. (Yes they did bad stuff before, but this current situation is a direct result of the massive attack on civilian and massive hostage taking.
There may have been a time early last year when this was true.
It certainly isn't true any more, not in the slightest bit.
The IDF is doing all their murdering, torturing, raping and pillaging now for no other reason than they want to, and their leaders want them to.
If you think I hate them for that, you are right.
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On April 17 2025 21:32 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2025 21:02 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 05:58 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 05:56 stilt wrote:On April 16 2025 04:42 Billyboy wrote:On April 16 2025 04:05 stilt wrote:On April 14 2025 23:22 Billyboy wrote:On April 14 2025 19:55 stilt wrote:On April 14 2025 08:10 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
You don’t need to be able to explicitly define an exact right way to know that raping people is a wrong way. Only a sociopath can’t see that some things are definitely the wrong way. Are you a sociopath GH? Or are you able to recognize that the sexual violence committed by Hamas is wrong? Kwark the negationnist trying to take the morale highground is pretty ironic. Considering your constant justification of the ongoing genocide and of past israeli actions, you should keep quiet. And GH is totally right, the scalping practice was instrumentalyzed in order to justify the genocide of the indians. Do I think scalping corpses is bad ? Or rape is bad ? Yeah but what Israel is doing (or what america did) is a whole other dimension. Just like the shoah per bullet was presented by the nazi as anti partisan action. No doubt at this point you would have been one of them and portrayed the soviet resistance as terrorists while million of jews get shot at. You didn't need justification back in that time period. Geocoding, slave trade and so on were just common practice. Bow down to power or die. What Israel has done is awful, but it is in no way unique. Look just next door in Syria and in all sorts of pockets in the middle east. Same with many spots in Africa. Same with Ukraine. What is unique is how politicized it is, and how much attention it gets. Hell what Israel is doing is what some people are calling for to happen to 'Fascists". The scary sad part is how not unique it is. That they have this power imbalance and didn't do something this awful or way worse sooner is maybe unique. Slavery was heavely justified, every system has his own justification. From the Valladolid debate to today, every exploitive system finds justification, the colonization was about superior race and civilization. Today hasn't change much if you're listenning vance or netanyahu. And not that's unique indeed, the us did the same to the natives. The french try the same in Algeria but couldn't succeed thanks to logistical reason. And it's not about crushing fascim but people. It's not me who are saying that, but the israeli one, the people and their governents. Among the myriad of quotes, the one by smotrich, the minister of finance, right at the announce of the truce is the most telling : "Gaza is destroyed and disintegrated, uninhabitable, and it will remain that way. Do not be impressed by the forced joy of our enemies, this is an animal society that sanctifies death and dances on the ruins of its life. Very soon, we will erase their smile again and replace it with cries of grief and the wails of those who were left with nothing." It's not against hamas but against the whole population. None of this, or anything you have written is on how Hamas is good. They are almost as awful to their own people as thy are to the Israeli, and have absolutely no respect for their lives. All you can do is "Israel bad" and without any nuance, it is just pure hate. I don't understand your first sentence, can you rephrase it ? You complain I lack nuances but you don't bring any counterpoints. If anything, I would say smotrich or elyahu, or netanyahu or the likud deputy who claimed all the family of a fellow arab deputy will be murdered soon or later lack nuances and are pure hatred. Like this quote of smotrich, that's what a Himmler would say, it's really rare to see a major politicans say those words, really, the intent is crystal clear. Maybe you're projecting their lack of nuances on me or maybe I am wrong and sieging 2 millions of people, calling for their death though starvation, atomic bomb or saying they will suffer again those animals is nuanced. Those are the representants of the israeli people whom web presence match these claims by the israeli ministers. I won't lose time on what you will consider as epiphenomenoms but the one happening in gaza are problematic to say the least. Ans guess what else match these kind of declaration ? Children shred in pieces, blocus, systematic destruction and killing of civilians. So no, I don't just "Israel is bad", I try to bring up their logics though declaration of their governents and what we know what's happening in gaza, the west bank and east jerusalem. I provided a myriads of links with both israeli and arabs sources ponctuated with israeli, western and arabs scholars including specialist of the shoah. I might be driven by "pure hatred" but at least, my sources are diversified. What you're doing on the other end is deflecting what's happening with two arguments : - hamas is bad, like yeah, won't be the first time people with some politics get genocided, that's totally beside the point - it has happened before, the strong crush the weak blabla, yeah sure and some of these crushing are called genocide and didn't have, dunno, international law based on human rights at the time. Nope, it is that my argument that Hamas is a horrible terrible organization and awful for the Palestinians. You keep writing how bad Israel is as if it makes Hamas good. But it does not. Basically you are falsly attributing a point of view you want to attack. edit: unless your point is that Hamas is good because Israel is so bad that killing all of them and wiping them from the map is good? The issue isn't (imo) with the argument that Hamas is bad for Palestine, but that argument being used as some kind of counterpoint to the Israeli genocide being unjustifiable. It isn't that,at all. In fact, it comes across as a ridiculously poor attempt at distraction. Hamas is NOT Palestine's biggest problem, not by a long way. The biggest problem is that it is being levelled and its population exterminated by Israel. That is where the argument could go. But who knows because we never get there. The last sentence is not a fact but an opinion and even Palestinians don't all agree. There current biggest problem is the IDF, but the IDF is doing what they are because of Hamas and the attack. (Yes they did bad stuff before, but this current situation is a direct result of the massive attack on civilian and massive hostage taking. There may have been a time early last year when this was true. It certainly isn't true any more, not in the slightest bit. The IDF is doing all their murdering, torturing, raping and pillaging now for no other reason than they want to, and their leaders want them to. If you think I hate them for that, you are right.
Like you hate Israeli's for that? Or you hate Netanyahu and the higher ups for that?
Also, what do you think was Hamas's strategic goals with the Oct 7th attack? How was that good for the Palestinians? And how successful were they in achieving their goals?
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I find this victim blaming after a year and a half of relentless onslaught extremely distasteful.
How much murdering of women and children in tents in "safe zones" with bombs is enough to "secure Israel"? How many ambulances ambushed and people trying to save children's lives being murdered and placed in a mass grave buried under ruble is enough?
Is there anything that Israel can do that might go too far, or is everything justified as long as it's done to people that you hate?
Israel has now killed way more people that Hamas, according to the highest estimates had militants, they are now saying that the occupation is permanent, they are expanding their West bank settlements and attacking perfectly peaceful Palestinians there on a daily basis, and there are still people here who think all of that is trumped by "Hamas bad".
Great argument...
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Northern Ireland25642 Posts
On April 17 2025 22:57 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2025 21:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 21:02 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 05:58 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 05:56 stilt wrote:On April 16 2025 04:42 Billyboy wrote:On April 16 2025 04:05 stilt wrote:On April 14 2025 23:22 Billyboy wrote:On April 14 2025 19:55 stilt wrote:
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Kwark the negationnist trying to take the morale highground is pretty ironic. Considering your constant justification of the ongoing genocide and of past israeli actions, you should keep quiet.
And GH is totally right, the scalping practice was instrumentalyzed in order to justify the genocide of the indians. Do I think scalping corpses is bad ? Or rape is bad ? Yeah but what Israel is doing (or what america did) is a whole other dimension.
Just like the shoah per bullet was presented by the nazi as anti partisan action.
No doubt at this point you would have been one of them and portrayed the soviet resistance as terrorists while million of jews get shot at. You didn't need justification back in that time period. Geocoding, slave trade and so on were just common practice. Bow down to power or die. What Israel has done is awful, but it is in no way unique. Look just next door in Syria and in all sorts of pockets in the middle east. Same with many spots in Africa. Same with Ukraine. What is unique is how politicized it is, and how much attention it gets. Hell what Israel is doing is what some people are calling for to happen to 'Fascists". The scary sad part is how not unique it is. That they have this power imbalance and didn't do something this awful or way worse sooner is maybe unique. Slavery was heavely justified, every system has his own justification. From the Valladolid debate to today, every exploitive system finds justification, the colonization was about superior race and civilization. Today hasn't change much if you're listenning vance or netanyahu. And not that's unique indeed, the us did the same to the natives. The french try the same in Algeria but couldn't succeed thanks to logistical reason. And it's not about crushing fascim but people. It's not me who are saying that, but the israeli one, the people and their governents. Among the myriad of quotes, the one by smotrich, the minister of finance, right at the announce of the truce is the most telling : "Gaza is destroyed and disintegrated, uninhabitable, and it will remain that way. Do not be impressed by the forced joy of our enemies, this is an animal society that sanctifies death and dances on the ruins of its life. Very soon, we will erase their smile again and replace it with cries of grief and the wails of those who were left with nothing." It's not against hamas but against the whole population. None of this, or anything you have written is on how Hamas is good. They are almost as awful to their own people as thy are to the Israeli, and have absolutely no respect for their lives. All you can do is "Israel bad" and without any nuance, it is just pure hate. I don't understand your first sentence, can you rephrase it ? You complain I lack nuances but you don't bring any counterpoints. If anything, I would say smotrich or elyahu, or netanyahu or the likud deputy who claimed all the family of a fellow arab deputy will be murdered soon or later lack nuances and are pure hatred. Like this quote of smotrich, that's what a Himmler would say, it's really rare to see a major politicans say those words, really, the intent is crystal clear. Maybe you're projecting their lack of nuances on me or maybe I am wrong and sieging 2 millions of people, calling for their death though starvation, atomic bomb or saying they will suffer again those animals is nuanced. Those are the representants of the israeli people whom web presence match these claims by the israeli ministers. I won't lose time on what you will consider as epiphenomenoms but the one happening in gaza are problematic to say the least. Ans guess what else match these kind of declaration ? Children shred in pieces, blocus, systematic destruction and killing of civilians. So no, I don't just "Israel is bad", I try to bring up their logics though declaration of their governents and what we know what's happening in gaza, the west bank and east jerusalem. I provided a myriads of links with both israeli and arabs sources ponctuated with israeli, western and arabs scholars including specialist of the shoah. I might be driven by "pure hatred" but at least, my sources are diversified. What you're doing on the other end is deflecting what's happening with two arguments : - hamas is bad, like yeah, won't be the first time people with some politics get genocided, that's totally beside the point - it has happened before, the strong crush the weak blabla, yeah sure and some of these crushing are called genocide and didn't have, dunno, international law based on human rights at the time. Nope, it is that my argument that Hamas is a horrible terrible organization and awful for the Palestinians. You keep writing how bad Israel is as if it makes Hamas good. But it does not. Basically you are falsly attributing a point of view you want to attack. edit: unless your point is that Hamas is good because Israel is so bad that killing all of them and wiping them from the map is good? The issue isn't (imo) with the argument that Hamas is bad for Palestine, but that argument being used as some kind of counterpoint to the Israeli genocide being unjustifiable. It isn't that,at all. In fact, it comes across as a ridiculously poor attempt at distraction. Hamas is NOT Palestine's biggest problem, not by a long way. The biggest problem is that it is being levelled and its population exterminated by Israel. That is where the argument could go. But who knows because we never get there. The last sentence is not a fact but an opinion and even Palestinians don't all agree. There current biggest problem is the IDF, but the IDF is doing what they are because of Hamas and the attack. (Yes they did bad stuff before, but this current situation is a direct result of the massive attack on civilian and massive hostage taking. There may have been a time early last year when this was true. It certainly isn't true any more, not in the slightest bit. The IDF is doing all their murdering, torturing, raping and pillaging now for no other reason than they want to, and their leaders want them to. If you think I hate them for that, you are right. Like you hate Israeli's for that? Or you hate Netanyahu and the higher ups for that? Also, what do you think was Hamas's strategic goals with the Oct 7th attack? How was that good for the Palestinians? And how successful were they in achieving their goals?
Why are Netanyahu and co the higher-ups to begin with?
It’s daft to hate individuals who may oppose the very things that anger one, hence I don’t hate every American in USPol for Trump or whatever.
But the behaviour of the Israeli state is egregious, and is getting worse, not better.
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On April 17 2025 23:47 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2025 22:57 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 21:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 21:02 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 05:58 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 05:56 stilt wrote:On April 16 2025 04:42 Billyboy wrote:On April 16 2025 04:05 stilt wrote:On April 14 2025 23:22 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
You didn't need justification back in that time period. Geocoding, slave trade and so on were just common practice. Bow down to power or die. What Israel has done is awful, but it is in no way unique. Look just next door in Syria and in all sorts of pockets in the middle east. Same with many spots in Africa. Same with Ukraine. What is unique is how politicized it is, and how much attention it gets.
Hell what Israel is doing is what some people are calling for to happen to 'Fascists". The scary sad part is how not unique it is. That they have this power imbalance and didn't do something this awful or way worse sooner is maybe unique. Slavery was heavely justified, every system has his own justification. From the Valladolid debate to today, every exploitive system finds justification, the colonization was about superior race and civilization. Today hasn't change much if you're listenning vance or netanyahu. And not that's unique indeed, the us did the same to the natives. The french try the same in Algeria but couldn't succeed thanks to logistical reason. And it's not about crushing fascim but people. It's not me who are saying that, but the israeli one, the people and their governents. Among the myriad of quotes, the one by smotrich, the minister of finance, right at the announce of the truce is the most telling : "Gaza is destroyed and disintegrated, uninhabitable, and it will remain that way. Do not be impressed by the forced joy of our enemies, this is an animal society that sanctifies death and dances on the ruins of its life. Very soon, we will erase their smile again and replace it with cries of grief and the wails of those who were left with nothing." It's not against hamas but against the whole population. None of this, or anything you have written is on how Hamas is good. They are almost as awful to their own people as thy are to the Israeli, and have absolutely no respect for their lives. All you can do is "Israel bad" and without any nuance, it is just pure hate. I don't understand your first sentence, can you rephrase it ? You complain I lack nuances but you don't bring any counterpoints. If anything, I would say smotrich or elyahu, or netanyahu or the likud deputy who claimed all the family of a fellow arab deputy will be murdered soon or later lack nuances and are pure hatred. Like this quote of smotrich, that's what a Himmler would say, it's really rare to see a major politicans say those words, really, the intent is crystal clear. Maybe you're projecting their lack of nuances on me or maybe I am wrong and sieging 2 millions of people, calling for their death though starvation, atomic bomb or saying they will suffer again those animals is nuanced. Those are the representants of the israeli people whom web presence match these claims by the israeli ministers. I won't lose time on what you will consider as epiphenomenoms but the one happening in gaza are problematic to say the least. Ans guess what else match these kind of declaration ? Children shred in pieces, blocus, systematic destruction and killing of civilians. So no, I don't just "Israel is bad", I try to bring up their logics though declaration of their governents and what we know what's happening in gaza, the west bank and east jerusalem. I provided a myriads of links with both israeli and arabs sources ponctuated with israeli, western and arabs scholars including specialist of the shoah. I might be driven by "pure hatred" but at least, my sources are diversified. What you're doing on the other end is deflecting what's happening with two arguments : - hamas is bad, like yeah, won't be the first time people with some politics get genocided, that's totally beside the point - it has happened before, the strong crush the weak blabla, yeah sure and some of these crushing are called genocide and didn't have, dunno, international law based on human rights at the time. Nope, it is that my argument that Hamas is a horrible terrible organization and awful for the Palestinians. You keep writing how bad Israel is as if it makes Hamas good. But it does not. Basically you are falsly attributing a point of view you want to attack. edit: unless your point is that Hamas is good because Israel is so bad that killing all of them and wiping them from the map is good? The issue isn't (imo) with the argument that Hamas is bad for Palestine, but that argument being used as some kind of counterpoint to the Israeli genocide being unjustifiable. It isn't that,at all. In fact, it comes across as a ridiculously poor attempt at distraction. Hamas is NOT Palestine's biggest problem, not by a long way. The biggest problem is that it is being levelled and its population exterminated by Israel. That is where the argument could go. But who knows because we never get there. The last sentence is not a fact but an opinion and even Palestinians don't all agree. There current biggest problem is the IDF, but the IDF is doing what they are because of Hamas and the attack. (Yes they did bad stuff before, but this current situation is a direct result of the massive attack on civilian and massive hostage taking. There may have been a time early last year when this was true. It certainly isn't true any more, not in the slightest bit. The IDF is doing all their murdering, torturing, raping and pillaging now for no other reason than they want to, and their leaders want them to. If you think I hate them for that, you are right. Like you hate Israeli's for that? Or you hate Netanyahu and the higher ups for that? Also, what do you think was Hamas's strategic goals with the Oct 7th attack? How was that good for the Palestinians? And how successful were they in achieving their goals? Why are Netanyahu and co the higher-ups to begin with? It’s daft to hate individuals who may oppose the very things that anger one, hence I don’t hate every American in USPol for Trump or whatever. But the behaviour of the Israeli state is egregious, and is getting worse, not better.
I honestly couldn't tell you if it's getting worse or just becoming clear how bad it always was
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On April 17 2025 23:18 Jankisa wrote:
I find this victim blaming after a year and a half of relentless onslaught extremely distasteful.
How much murdering of women and children in tents in "safe zones" with bombs is enough to "secure Israel"? How many ambulances ambushed and people trying to save children's lives being murdered and placed in a mass grave buried under ruble is enough?
Is there anything that Israel can do that might go too far, or is everything justified as long as it's done to people that you hate?
Israel has now killed way more people that Hamas, according to the highest estimates had militants, they are now saying that the occupation is permanent, they are expanding their West bank settlements and attacking perfectly peaceful Palestinians there on a daily basis, and there are still people here who think all of that is trumped by "Hamas bad".
Great argument...
Wonderful take down of an argument no one has, High five!
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EPT
