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On April 17 2025 23:47 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2025 22:57 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 21:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 21:02 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 05:58 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 05:56 stilt wrote:On April 16 2025 04:42 Billyboy wrote:On April 16 2025 04:05 stilt wrote:On April 14 2025 23:22 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
You didn't need justification back in that time period. Geocoding, slave trade and so on were just common practice. Bow down to power or die. What Israel has done is awful, but it is in no way unique. Look just next door in Syria and in all sorts of pockets in the middle east. Same with many spots in Africa. Same with Ukraine. What is unique is how politicized it is, and how much attention it gets.
Hell what Israel is doing is what some people are calling for to happen to 'Fascists". The scary sad part is how not unique it is. That they have this power imbalance and didn't do something this awful or way worse sooner is maybe unique. Slavery was heavely justified, every system has his own justification. From the Valladolid debate to today, every exploitive system finds justification, the colonization was about superior race and civilization. Today hasn't change much if you're listenning vance or netanyahu. And not that's unique indeed, the us did the same to the natives. The french try the same in Algeria but couldn't succeed thanks to logistical reason. And it's not about crushing fascim but people. It's not me who are saying that, but the israeli one, the people and their governents. Among the myriad of quotes, the one by smotrich, the minister of finance, right at the announce of the truce is the most telling : "Gaza is destroyed and disintegrated, uninhabitable, and it will remain that way. Do not be impressed by the forced joy of our enemies, this is an animal society that sanctifies death and dances on the ruins of its life. Very soon, we will erase their smile again and replace it with cries of grief and the wails of those who were left with nothing." It's not against hamas but against the whole population. None of this, or anything you have written is on how Hamas is good. They are almost as awful to their own people as thy are to the Israeli, and have absolutely no respect for their lives. All you can do is "Israel bad" and without any nuance, it is just pure hate. I don't understand your first sentence, can you rephrase it ? You complain I lack nuances but you don't bring any counterpoints. If anything, I would say smotrich or elyahu, or netanyahu or the likud deputy who claimed all the family of a fellow arab deputy will be murdered soon or later lack nuances and are pure hatred. Like this quote of smotrich, that's what a Himmler would say, it's really rare to see a major politicans say those words, really, the intent is crystal clear. Maybe you're projecting their lack of nuances on me or maybe I am wrong and sieging 2 millions of people, calling for their death though starvation, atomic bomb or saying they will suffer again those animals is nuanced. Those are the representants of the israeli people whom web presence match these claims by the israeli ministers. I won't lose time on what you will consider as epiphenomenoms but the one happening in gaza are problematic to say the least. Ans guess what else match these kind of declaration ? Children shred in pieces, blocus, systematic destruction and killing of civilians. So no, I don't just "Israel is bad", I try to bring up their logics though declaration of their governents and what we know what's happening in gaza, the west bank and east jerusalem. I provided a myriads of links with both israeli and arabs sources ponctuated with israeli, western and arabs scholars including specialist of the shoah. I might be driven by "pure hatred" but at least, my sources are diversified. What you're doing on the other end is deflecting what's happening with two arguments : - hamas is bad, like yeah, won't be the first time people with some politics get genocided, that's totally beside the point - it has happened before, the strong crush the weak blabla, yeah sure and some of these crushing are called genocide and didn't have, dunno, international law based on human rights at the time. Nope, it is that my argument that Hamas is a horrible terrible organization and awful for the Palestinians. You keep writing how bad Israel is as if it makes Hamas good. But it does not. Basically you are falsly attributing a point of view you want to attack. edit: unless your point is that Hamas is good because Israel is so bad that killing all of them and wiping them from the map is good? The issue isn't (imo) with the argument that Hamas is bad for Palestine, but that argument being used as some kind of counterpoint to the Israeli genocide being unjustifiable. It isn't that,at all. In fact, it comes across as a ridiculously poor attempt at distraction. Hamas is NOT Palestine's biggest problem, not by a long way. The biggest problem is that it is being levelled and its population exterminated by Israel. That is where the argument could go. But who knows because we never get there. The last sentence is not a fact but an opinion and even Palestinians don't all agree. There current biggest problem is the IDF, but the IDF is doing what they are because of Hamas and the attack. (Yes they did bad stuff before, but this current situation is a direct result of the massive attack on civilian and massive hostage taking. There may have been a time early last year when this was true. It certainly isn't true any more, not in the slightest bit. The IDF is doing all their murdering, torturing, raping and pillaging now for no other reason than they want to, and their leaders want them to. If you think I hate them for that, you are right. Like you hate Israeli's for that? Or you hate Netanyahu and the higher ups for that? Also, what do you think was Hamas's strategic goals with the Oct 7th attack? How was that good for the Palestinians? And how successful were they in achieving their goals? Why are Netanyahu and co the higher-ups to begin with? It’s daft to hate individuals who may oppose the very things that anger one, hence I don’t hate every American in USPol for Trump or whatever. But the behaviour of the Israeli state is egregious, and is getting worse, not better.
It has been a long and winding road and to be honest no idea if you are asking this is good faith or not but I'll give you a fairly uneducated summary. Netanyahu was a centrist politician who won power, he started being more and more corrupt, lost the left of center and moved right, lost the right of center and moved more right, was formally accused of corruption, keeps getting a smaller are more right coalition government that keeps being defeated, but then can't come together to form a government. The only thing keeping Netanyahu out of jail is him leading the government. His popularity only spikes when Hamas or Hezbollah or whoever attacks Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu
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On April 17 2025 22:57 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2025 21:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 21:02 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 05:58 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 05:56 stilt wrote:On April 16 2025 04:42 Billyboy wrote:On April 16 2025 04:05 stilt wrote:On April 14 2025 23:22 Billyboy wrote:On April 14 2025 19:55 stilt wrote:
[quote]
Kwark the negationnist trying to take the morale highground is pretty ironic. Considering your constant justification of the ongoing genocide and of past israeli actions, you should keep quiet.
And GH is totally right, the scalping practice was instrumentalyzed in order to justify the genocide of the indians. Do I think scalping corpses is bad ? Or rape is bad ? Yeah but what Israel is doing (or what america did) is a whole other dimension.
Just like the shoah per bullet was presented by the nazi as anti partisan action.
No doubt at this point you would have been one of them and portrayed the soviet resistance as terrorists while million of jews get shot at. You didn't need justification back in that time period. Geocoding, slave trade and so on were just common practice. Bow down to power or die. What Israel has done is awful, but it is in no way unique. Look just next door in Syria and in all sorts of pockets in the middle east. Same with many spots in Africa. Same with Ukraine. What is unique is how politicized it is, and how much attention it gets. Hell what Israel is doing is what some people are calling for to happen to 'Fascists". The scary sad part is how not unique it is. That they have this power imbalance and didn't do something this awful or way worse sooner is maybe unique. Slavery was heavely justified, every system has his own justification. From the Valladolid debate to today, every exploitive system finds justification, the colonization was about superior race and civilization. Today hasn't change much if you're listenning vance or netanyahu. And not that's unique indeed, the us did the same to the natives. The french try the same in Algeria but couldn't succeed thanks to logistical reason. And it's not about crushing fascim but people. It's not me who are saying that, but the israeli one, the people and their governents. Among the myriad of quotes, the one by smotrich, the minister of finance, right at the announce of the truce is the most telling : "Gaza is destroyed and disintegrated, uninhabitable, and it will remain that way. Do not be impressed by the forced joy of our enemies, this is an animal society that sanctifies death and dances on the ruins of its life. Very soon, we will erase their smile again and replace it with cries of grief and the wails of those who were left with nothing." It's not against hamas but against the whole population. None of this, or anything you have written is on how Hamas is good. They are almost as awful to their own people as thy are to the Israeli, and have absolutely no respect for their lives. All you can do is "Israel bad" and without any nuance, it is just pure hate. I don't understand your first sentence, can you rephrase it ? You complain I lack nuances but you don't bring any counterpoints. If anything, I would say smotrich or elyahu, or netanyahu or the likud deputy who claimed all the family of a fellow arab deputy will be murdered soon or later lack nuances and are pure hatred. Like this quote of smotrich, that's what a Himmler would say, it's really rare to see a major politicans say those words, really, the intent is crystal clear. Maybe you're projecting their lack of nuances on me or maybe I am wrong and sieging 2 millions of people, calling for their death though starvation, atomic bomb or saying they will suffer again those animals is nuanced. Those are the representants of the israeli people whom web presence match these claims by the israeli ministers. I won't lose time on what you will consider as epiphenomenoms but the one happening in gaza are problematic to say the least. Ans guess what else match these kind of declaration ? Children shred in pieces, blocus, systematic destruction and killing of civilians. So no, I don't just "Israel is bad", I try to bring up their logics though declaration of their governents and what we know what's happening in gaza, the west bank and east jerusalem. I provided a myriads of links with both israeli and arabs sources ponctuated with israeli, western and arabs scholars including specialist of the shoah. I might be driven by "pure hatred" but at least, my sources are diversified. What you're doing on the other end is deflecting what's happening with two arguments : - hamas is bad, like yeah, won't be the first time people with some politics get genocided, that's totally beside the point - it has happened before, the strong crush the weak blabla, yeah sure and some of these crushing are called genocide and didn't have, dunno, international law based on human rights at the time. Nope, it is that my argument that Hamas is a horrible terrible organization and awful for the Palestinians. You keep writing how bad Israel is as if it makes Hamas good. But it does not. Basically you are falsly attributing a point of view you want to attack. edit: unless your point is that Hamas is good because Israel is so bad that killing all of them and wiping them from the map is good? The issue isn't (imo) with the argument that Hamas is bad for Palestine, but that argument being used as some kind of counterpoint to the Israeli genocide being unjustifiable. It isn't that,at all. In fact, it comes across as a ridiculously poor attempt at distraction. Hamas is NOT Palestine's biggest problem, not by a long way. The biggest problem is that it is being levelled and its population exterminated by Israel. That is where the argument could go. But who knows because we never get there. The last sentence is not a fact but an opinion and even Palestinians don't all agree. There current biggest problem is the IDF, but the IDF is doing what they are because of Hamas and the attack. (Yes they did bad stuff before, but this current situation is a direct result of the massive attack on civilian and massive hostage taking. There may have been a time early last year when this was true. It certainly isn't true any more, not in the slightest bit. The IDF is doing all their murdering, torturing, raping and pillaging now for no other reason than they want to, and their leaders want them to. If you think I hate them for that, you are right. Like you hate Israeli's for that? Or you hate Netanyahu and the higher ups for that? Also, what do you think was Hamas's strategic goals with the Oct 7th attack? How was that good for the Palestinians? And how successful were they in achieving their goals?
I hate the IDF for it, and the Israeli government.
And yeah, when I say the IDF, I mean the generals and the rank and file. They are animals living in shit slaughtering kids for a laugh. The absolute dickcheese of humanity.
When it comes to Hamas' attack, I just don't see the relevance of it at this point. Its got nothing to do with the current situation.
I accept Hamas treats their population like the mafia treats the public. Other than that, I suppose their goals are as much to do with Iran as they are to do with Israel.
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On April 18 2025 00:48 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2025 22:57 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 21:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 21:02 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 05:58 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 05:56 stilt wrote:On April 16 2025 04:42 Billyboy wrote:On April 16 2025 04:05 stilt wrote:On April 14 2025 23:22 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
You didn't need justification back in that time period. Geocoding, slave trade and so on were just common practice. Bow down to power or die. What Israel has done is awful, but it is in no way unique. Look just next door in Syria and in all sorts of pockets in the middle east. Same with many spots in Africa. Same with Ukraine. What is unique is how politicized it is, and how much attention it gets.
Hell what Israel is doing is what some people are calling for to happen to 'Fascists". The scary sad part is how not unique it is. That they have this power imbalance and didn't do something this awful or way worse sooner is maybe unique. Slavery was heavely justified, every system has his own justification. From the Valladolid debate to today, every exploitive system finds justification, the colonization was about superior race and civilization. Today hasn't change much if you're listenning vance or netanyahu. And not that's unique indeed, the us did the same to the natives. The french try the same in Algeria but couldn't succeed thanks to logistical reason. And it's not about crushing fascim but people. It's not me who are saying that, but the israeli one, the people and their governents. Among the myriad of quotes, the one by smotrich, the minister of finance, right at the announce of the truce is the most telling : "Gaza is destroyed and disintegrated, uninhabitable, and it will remain that way. Do not be impressed by the forced joy of our enemies, this is an animal society that sanctifies death and dances on the ruins of its life. Very soon, we will erase their smile again and replace it with cries of grief and the wails of those who were left with nothing." It's not against hamas but against the whole population. None of this, or anything you have written is on how Hamas is good. They are almost as awful to their own people as thy are to the Israeli, and have absolutely no respect for their lives. All you can do is "Israel bad" and without any nuance, it is just pure hate. I don't understand your first sentence, can you rephrase it ? You complain I lack nuances but you don't bring any counterpoints. If anything, I would say smotrich or elyahu, or netanyahu or the likud deputy who claimed all the family of a fellow arab deputy will be murdered soon or later lack nuances and are pure hatred. Like this quote of smotrich, that's what a Himmler would say, it's really rare to see a major politicans say those words, really, the intent is crystal clear. Maybe you're projecting their lack of nuances on me or maybe I am wrong and sieging 2 millions of people, calling for their death though starvation, atomic bomb or saying they will suffer again those animals is nuanced. Those are the representants of the israeli people whom web presence match these claims by the israeli ministers. I won't lose time on what you will consider as epiphenomenoms but the one happening in gaza are problematic to say the least. Ans guess what else match these kind of declaration ? Children shred in pieces, blocus, systematic destruction and killing of civilians. So no, I don't just "Israel is bad", I try to bring up their logics though declaration of their governents and what we know what's happening in gaza, the west bank and east jerusalem. I provided a myriads of links with both israeli and arabs sources ponctuated with israeli, western and arabs scholars including specialist of the shoah. I might be driven by "pure hatred" but at least, my sources are diversified. What you're doing on the other end is deflecting what's happening with two arguments : - hamas is bad, like yeah, won't be the first time people with some politics get genocided, that's totally beside the point - it has happened before, the strong crush the weak blabla, yeah sure and some of these crushing are called genocide and didn't have, dunno, international law based on human rights at the time. Nope, it is that my argument that Hamas is a horrible terrible organization and awful for the Palestinians. You keep writing how bad Israel is as if it makes Hamas good. But it does not. Basically you are falsly attributing a point of view you want to attack. edit: unless your point is that Hamas is good because Israel is so bad that killing all of them and wiping them from the map is good? The issue isn't (imo) with the argument that Hamas is bad for Palestine, but that argument being used as some kind of counterpoint to the Israeli genocide being unjustifiable. It isn't that,at all. In fact, it comes across as a ridiculously poor attempt at distraction. Hamas is NOT Palestine's biggest problem, not by a long way. The biggest problem is that it is being levelled and its population exterminated by Israel. That is where the argument could go. But who knows because we never get there. The last sentence is not a fact but an opinion and even Palestinians don't all agree. There current biggest problem is the IDF, but the IDF is doing what they are because of Hamas and the attack. (Yes they did bad stuff before, but this current situation is a direct result of the massive attack on civilian and massive hostage taking. There may have been a time early last year when this was true. It certainly isn't true any more, not in the slightest bit. The IDF is doing all their murdering, torturing, raping and pillaging now for no other reason than they want to, and their leaders want them to. If you think I hate them for that, you are right. Like you hate Israeli's for that? Or you hate Netanyahu and the higher ups for that? Also, what do you think was Hamas's strategic goals with the Oct 7th attack? How was that good for the Palestinians? And how successful were they in achieving their goals? I hate the IDF for it, and the Israeli government. And yeah, when I say the IDF, I mean the generals and the rank and file. They are animals living in shit slaughtering kids for a laugh. The absolute dickcheese of humanity. When it comes to Hamas' attack, I just don't see the relevance of it at this point. Its got nothing to do with the current situation. I accept Hamas treats their population like the mafia treats the public. Other than that, I suppose their goals are as much to do with Iran as they are to do with Israel.
Your first part I agree a fair bit of. They parts of the Government supporting this I hate, and the leadership of the IDF I hate. The rank and file, it would depend on the person, I suspect it is about the same amount of awful people from a percentage as people who were active in the US and British armies during their active wars.
I agree that their goals are much like Iran's, which have everything to do with the destruction of Israel and killing all the people their. and very little if any care to the Palestinians.
The attack is still very relevant. It was the impetus and justification for the war. And then now the hostages are the justification for every action. They are also the biggest reason for the massive on going protests that have happened throughout the war in Israel.
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On April 18 2025 01:09 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2025 00:48 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 22:57 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 21:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 21:02 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 05:58 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 05:56 stilt wrote:On April 16 2025 04:42 Billyboy wrote:On April 16 2025 04:05 stilt wrote:
[quote]
Slavery was heavely justified, every system has his own justification. From the Valladolid debate to today, every exploitive system finds justification, the colonization was about superior race and civilization. Today hasn't change much if you're listenning vance or netanyahu.
And not that's unique indeed, the us did the same to the natives.
The french try the same in Algeria but couldn't succeed thanks to logistical reason.
And it's not about crushing fascim but people. It's not me who are saying that, but the israeli one, the people and their governents.
Among the myriad of quotes, the one by smotrich, the minister of finance, right at the announce of the truce is the most telling : "Gaza is destroyed and disintegrated, uninhabitable, and it will remain that way. Do not be impressed by the forced joy of our enemies, this is an animal society that sanctifies death and dances on the ruins of its life. Very soon, we will erase their smile again and replace it with cries of grief and the wails of those who were left with nothing."
It's not against hamas but against the whole population. None of this, or anything you have written is on how Hamas is good. They are almost as awful to their own people as thy are to the Israeli, and have absolutely no respect for their lives. All you can do is "Israel bad" and without any nuance, it is just pure hate. I don't understand your first sentence, can you rephrase it ? You complain I lack nuances but you don't bring any counterpoints. If anything, I would say smotrich or elyahu, or netanyahu or the likud deputy who claimed all the family of a fellow arab deputy will be murdered soon or later lack nuances and are pure hatred. Like this quote of smotrich, that's what a Himmler would say, it's really rare to see a major politicans say those words, really, the intent is crystal clear. Maybe you're projecting their lack of nuances on me or maybe I am wrong and sieging 2 millions of people, calling for their death though starvation, atomic bomb or saying they will suffer again those animals is nuanced. Those are the representants of the israeli people whom web presence match these claims by the israeli ministers. I won't lose time on what you will consider as epiphenomenoms but the one happening in gaza are problematic to say the least. Ans guess what else match these kind of declaration ? Children shred in pieces, blocus, systematic destruction and killing of civilians. So no, I don't just "Israel is bad", I try to bring up their logics though declaration of their governents and what we know what's happening in gaza, the west bank and east jerusalem. I provided a myriads of links with both israeli and arabs sources ponctuated with israeli, western and arabs scholars including specialist of the shoah. I might be driven by "pure hatred" but at least, my sources are diversified. What you're doing on the other end is deflecting what's happening with two arguments : - hamas is bad, like yeah, won't be the first time people with some politics get genocided, that's totally beside the point - it has happened before, the strong crush the weak blabla, yeah sure and some of these crushing are called genocide and didn't have, dunno, international law based on human rights at the time. Nope, it is that my argument that Hamas is a horrible terrible organization and awful for the Palestinians. You keep writing how bad Israel is as if it makes Hamas good. But it does not. Basically you are falsly attributing a point of view you want to attack. edit: unless your point is that Hamas is good because Israel is so bad that killing all of them and wiping them from the map is good? The issue isn't (imo) with the argument that Hamas is bad for Palestine, but that argument being used as some kind of counterpoint to the Israeli genocide being unjustifiable. It isn't that,at all. In fact, it comes across as a ridiculously poor attempt at distraction. Hamas is NOT Palestine's biggest problem, not by a long way. The biggest problem is that it is being levelled and its population exterminated by Israel. That is where the argument could go. But who knows because we never get there. The last sentence is not a fact but an opinion and even Palestinians don't all agree. There current biggest problem is the IDF, but the IDF is doing what they are because of Hamas and the attack. (Yes they did bad stuff before, but this current situation is a direct result of the massive attack on civilian and massive hostage taking. There may have been a time early last year when this was true. It certainly isn't true any more, not in the slightest bit. The IDF is doing all their murdering, torturing, raping and pillaging now for no other reason than they want to, and their leaders want them to. If you think I hate them for that, you are right. Like you hate Israeli's for that? Or you hate Netanyahu and the higher ups for that? Also, what do you think was Hamas's strategic goals with the Oct 7th attack? How was that good for the Palestinians? And how successful were they in achieving their goals? I hate the IDF for it, and the Israeli government. And yeah, when I say the IDF, I mean the generals and the rank and file. They are animals living in shit slaughtering kids for a laugh. The absolute dickcheese of humanity. When it comes to Hamas' attack, I just don't see the relevance of it at this point. Its got nothing to do with the current situation. I accept Hamas treats their population like the mafia treats the public. Other than that, I suppose their goals are as much to do with Iran as they are to do with Israel. Your first part I agree a fair bit of. They parts of the Government supporting this I hate, and the leadership of the IDF I hate. The rank and file, it would depend on the person, I suspect it is about the same amount of awful people from a percentage as people who were active in the US and British armies during their active wars.
Would you say the same about Hamas' rank and file?
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On April 18 2025 01:55 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2025 01:09 Billyboy wrote:On April 18 2025 00:48 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 22:57 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 21:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 21:02 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 17:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 17 2025 05:58 Billyboy wrote:On April 17 2025 05:56 stilt wrote:On April 16 2025 04:42 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
None of this, or anything you have written is on how Hamas is good. They are almost as awful to their own people as thy are to the Israeli, and have absolutely no respect for their lives.
All you can do is "Israel bad" and without any nuance, it is just pure hate. I don't understand your first sentence, can you rephrase it ? You complain I lack nuances but you don't bring any counterpoints. If anything, I would say smotrich or elyahu, or netanyahu or the likud deputy who claimed all the family of a fellow arab deputy will be murdered soon or later lack nuances and are pure hatred. Like this quote of smotrich, that's what a Himmler would say, it's really rare to see a major politicans say those words, really, the intent is crystal clear. Maybe you're projecting their lack of nuances on me or maybe I am wrong and sieging 2 millions of people, calling for their death though starvation, atomic bomb or saying they will suffer again those animals is nuanced. Those are the representants of the israeli people whom web presence match these claims by the israeli ministers. I won't lose time on what you will consider as epiphenomenoms but the one happening in gaza are problematic to say the least. Ans guess what else match these kind of declaration ? Children shred in pieces, blocus, systematic destruction and killing of civilians. So no, I don't just "Israel is bad", I try to bring up their logics though declaration of their governents and what we know what's happening in gaza, the west bank and east jerusalem. I provided a myriads of links with both israeli and arabs sources ponctuated with israeli, western and arabs scholars including specialist of the shoah. I might be driven by "pure hatred" but at least, my sources are diversified. What you're doing on the other end is deflecting what's happening with two arguments : - hamas is bad, like yeah, won't be the first time people with some politics get genocided, that's totally beside the point - it has happened before, the strong crush the weak blabla, yeah sure and some of these crushing are called genocide and didn't have, dunno, international law based on human rights at the time. Nope, it is that my argument that Hamas is a horrible terrible organization and awful for the Palestinians. You keep writing how bad Israel is as if it makes Hamas good. But it does not. Basically you are falsly attributing a point of view you want to attack. edit: unless your point is that Hamas is good because Israel is so bad that killing all of them and wiping them from the map is good? The issue isn't (imo) with the argument that Hamas is bad for Palestine, but that argument being used as some kind of counterpoint to the Israeli genocide being unjustifiable. It isn't that,at all. In fact, it comes across as a ridiculously poor attempt at distraction. Hamas is NOT Palestine's biggest problem, not by a long way. The biggest problem is that it is being levelled and its population exterminated by Israel. That is where the argument could go. But who knows because we never get there. The last sentence is not a fact but an opinion and even Palestinians don't all agree. There current biggest problem is the IDF, but the IDF is doing what they are because of Hamas and the attack. (Yes they did bad stuff before, but this current situation is a direct result of the massive attack on civilian and massive hostage taking. There may have been a time early last year when this was true. It certainly isn't true any more, not in the slightest bit. The IDF is doing all their murdering, torturing, raping and pillaging now for no other reason than they want to, and their leaders want them to. If you think I hate them for that, you are right. Like you hate Israeli's for that? Or you hate Netanyahu and the higher ups for that? Also, what do you think was Hamas's strategic goals with the Oct 7th attack? How was that good for the Palestinians? And how successful were they in achieving their goals? I hate the IDF for it, and the Israeli government. And yeah, when I say the IDF, I mean the generals and the rank and file. They are animals living in shit slaughtering kids for a laugh. The absolute dickcheese of humanity. When it comes to Hamas' attack, I just don't see the relevance of it at this point. Its got nothing to do with the current situation. I accept Hamas treats their population like the mafia treats the public. Other than that, I suppose their goals are as much to do with Iran as they are to do with Israel. Your first part I agree a fair bit of. They parts of the Government supporting this I hate, and the leadership of the IDF I hate. The rank and file, it would depend on the person, I suspect it is about the same amount of awful people from a percentage as people who were active in the US and British armies during their active wars. Would you say the same about Hamas' rank and file?
No, their conditions have been way more brutal. Their indoctrination would not even include the handwaving of the rules of war, they are trained to break them, kill as many civilians as possible, maximize the use of human shields and so on.
I'm also not a fan of killing them all either. I would hope some sort of deprograming would be possible.
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Israelis burning children in gaza, business as usual.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5yrl891j23o.amp
Tbf, they generally shred them in pieces or just shoot at them but that's not like murder by burning is new to them, they did it to a journalist a week ago.
Pure hatred he says, well, I am neither sadistic or racist, I indeed hate israel and its society which massively supports a whole genocide.
But that's the point with zionist, even portray yourself as perpetual victims no matter what you do. Just like their false narrative of 1948.
It's especially motivated because by supporting it, our own society is leading to become like them, a bunch of degenerate supremacists, proud of their sheer ignorance and stupidity. And obviously totally blind to any facts, mass murders of children, paramedics, hospital leveled up, 2 millions sieged in correlation with a extremely violent rhetoric by the israeli governements ? No recognized because even the strongest light cannot reach the deepest stupidity.
A palestinian I sympathized with since the genocide was telling me how dumb and uneducated the colons are and I always think about Alex, the kapo who brushed his hand to the striped clothes of primo levy in "If this is a man". Levy analyzed this by stating Alex was a ignorant brute who couldn't realize how dezhumanizing was his gesture. Nowadays, they are the maga who publish asmr video of deported foreigners or israelis who cheer at the suffering of palestinians, a ignorant and hateful crown.
Meanwhile even the fucking time of israel publishes this :
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/settlers-filmed-establishing-new-illegal-outpost-in-west-bank-under-idf-protection/amp/
Colons are progressing rapidly with the help of "idf", palestinians injuries by them happen daily.
A poll reported by a israel outlet : https://www.i24news.tv/fr/actu/israel/diplomatie-defense/artc-sondage-80-des-israeliens-favorables-au-plan-de-trump-sur-la-relocalisation-des-gazaouis
80% of israeli jews openly support a plan of ethnic cleansing.
And I will conclude with this by linking an article about a major specialist of the shoah, omer bartov :
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/12/30/omer_bartov_israel_gaza_genocide
An american israeli, former idf soldier and recognized specialist of the shoah who denounces the genocide since a year.
All this text for my boi billy crying me a river because I am so hateful and hamas is bad.
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Lots of interesting articles coming out recently here are a few.
Netanyahu vows to continue war in Gaza despite growing opposition at home
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/netanyahu-vows-to-continue-war-in-gaza-despite-growing-opposition-at-home/ar-AA1DeQ0R?ocid=BingNewsSerp
“If we surrender to Hamas’s demands now, all the tremendous achievements gained by our soldiers, our fallen, and our wounded heroes—those achievements will simply be lost,” Netanyahu said.
Thousands of Israeli military reservists and retirees have signed public letters calling for a ceasefire deal to return all of the hostages, even at the cost of ending the war. The letters have now come from an increasing number of military units, including elite intelligence and commando units, as well as civilian professions.
Many Israelis prioritize a deal to return the hostages, even if it means ending the war, according to recent polling. A poll from Israel’s Channel 12 News, released late-last month, indicated that nearly 70% supported such a deal, while only 21% opposed an end to the war.
Caught between the ICJ and Smotrich: Will Netanyahu allow humanitarian aid into Gaza?
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/caught-between-the-icj-and-smotrich-will-netanyahu-allow-humanitarian-aid-into-gaza/ar-AA1DtyQO?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=4aebe0604ce643c5ee3fc1f059893e48&ei=130
Why is Finance Minister Betzalel Smotrich suddenly at loggerheads over Gaza humanitarian aid with the new IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Eyal Zamir, who was supposed to be the savior of the smash Hamas and Gaza approach to the war?
Although Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu presented himself as if he was staying out of the fight, he has been on the side of allowing humanitarian aid to flow to Gazans almost throughout the war – and this time is likely no different.
This was never Netanyahu’s long-term strategy, and certainly not as Israel will appear before the International Court of Justice from Monday through Friday next week to combat allegations of starvation.
From Israel’s perspective, the allegations are preposterous. There certainly have been cases where individuals in Gaza starved, and no one is eating well, as happens in almost any war.
or political reasons Netanyahu is trying to take a passive position publicly on the issue and let Zamir take the fire from Smotrich, but just as Netanyahu in May 2024 quietly ordered then IDF chief Herzi Halevi to ignore Smotrich’s preference for a full military occupation of Gaza, the prime minister is likely behind or sympathetic to Zamir’s opposition to the military running the food aid program itself.
Zamir opposes a permanent reoccupation of Gaza (though he is fine with an extended temporary reoccupation), as does nearly the whole military, and opposes, for professional reasons, putting his soldiers en masse into the food distribution business.
As far as he is concerned, soldiers are for killing the enemy and for defending Israeli civilians, not for handing out food to foreign citizens.
Rather, it is about Netanyahu trying to walk a tightrope between avoiding new problems with the ICJ and new problems with Smotrich threatening to topple his coalition.
Calls for Netanyahu's incapacitation increase after Ronen Bar affidavit
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/calls-for-netanyahu-s-incapacitation-increase-after-ronen-bar-affidavit/ar-AA1Dt6jC?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=4aebe0604ce643c5ee3fc1f059893e48&ei=122
In the affidavit, Bar asserted that Netanyahu decided to fire him due to a series of measures that posed political threats.
These included Bar’s refusal to approve security measures that would have delayed Netanyahu’s testimony in his criminal trial; the Shin Bet’s investigation into two cases involving Netanyahu’s close aides, relating to leaked classified documents and alleged public relations services provided by the aides to Qatar; the Shin Bet’s investigation into the October 7 massacre, which included criticism of the political echelon; and Bar’s insistence on the formation of a State Commission of Inquiry.
Bar also stated in the affidavit that Netanyahu had pressured him to use tools reserved for use against subversion or threats of violence, against leaders and “financiers” of the protests against the judicial reforms.
Palestinian Authority's Abbas demands that Hamas release hostages
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/palestinian-authority-s-abbas-demands-that-hamas-release-hostages/ar-AA1DsPpK?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=4aebe0604ce643c5ee3fc1f059893e48&ei=83
He further stated that Israel must not be given any pretext to continue the war, adding that hundreds of Palestinians are being killed every day in the Gaza war.
Abbas also demanded that Hamas hand over control of the Gaza Strip to the Palestinian Authority. However, Hamas and other extremist groups have so far refused to lay down their arms. Israel rejects any involvement of Hamas in a future government in Gaza.
Hamas Offers to Relinquish Control of Gaza in Exchange for Ceasefire Deal
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/hamas-offers-to-relinquish-control-of-gaza-in-exchange-for-ceasefire-deal/ar-AA1Dr0Xf?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=4aebe0604ce643c5ee3fc1f059893e48&ei=33
Now, Hamas says it is ready to hand over administrative control of Gaza to a mutually agreed-upon Palestinian authority—either the West Bank-based Palestinian Authority (PA) or a newly formed governing body.
However, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has ruled out any future role for the PA in Gaza’s administration.
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I have a way for this all to be ended nicely and peacefully.
After Israel's latest lie got caught out about the atrocity with the medics, they made it all better by firing a few of the people responsible.
So it follows that if we get Hamas to fire a few of the people responsible for Oct 7 then everything is better and everyone has to shut up about it.
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On April 25 2025 02:14 Jockmcplop wrote:
I have a way for this all to be ended nicely and peacefully.
After Israel's latest lie got caught out about the atrocity with the medics, they made it all better by firing a few of the people responsible.
So it follows that if we get Hamas to fire a few of the people responsible for Oct 7 then everything is better and everyone has to shut up about it.
More reasonable than most solutions.
I think the most realistic way is one of the even crazier than Netanyahu guys gets mad and ends the coalition, Netanyahu finally faces trial, Israel gets a new more moderate leader.
Then in Gaza, Hamas surrenders and gives back all the hostages, seeds control of Gaza to the PA or ideally a better group (with less baggage) that has actual Palestinians interest at heart.
The new leaders actually work together instead of pretend to work together and actually work to destroy each other.
And well I started that out with the word realistic by the time I was done, I was thinking, this is never going to happen. 
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That would be nice, however, by my count most of Hamas (militant wing) leadership were killed, what's left are the guys in Quatar who don't give a fuck about civilians or what happens.
An obvious solution would be to allow PLO to take over Gaza but Netyanahu will never allow this because they want to continue the ethnic clensing and they want to take Gaza for themselves.
They are also territoriality expanding in West bank, Lebannon and Syria.
We are in the "expansion" era, the axis of Israel and Russia is soon to be joined by the US and after that it's a free for all, a democratically elected and cheered on warlords who, if we call out we become: Russophobes, TDS sufferers who blame the voters who just care about eggs and anti-Semites.
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https://news.sky.com/story/israel-approves-plan-to-seize-all-of-gaza-and-hold-it-indefinitely-officials-say-13362138
So, Israel is approving plans to seize all of Gaza.
They have been striking Syria and expanding their territory there ever since the Assad regime was removed.
They are ramping up settler violence and going completely mask off with kidnapping Oscar winning documentary directors and killing whoever they like.
Does anyone care?
Is this all OK with the "Israel has the right to defend itself by any means necessary" crew here?
Given how much emphasis the "Democrats are helping genocide" people are actually putting on this now that they can't score political brownie points since they aren't in power at the moment? Do you guys care?
This is beyond fucked, no one cares...
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On May 05 2025 18:31 Jankisa wrote:https://news.sky.com/story/israel-approves-plan-to-seize-all-of-gaza-and-hold-it-indefinitely-officials-say-13362138So, Israel is approving plans to seize all of Gaza. They have been striking Syria and expanding their territory there ever since the Assad regime was removed. They are ramping up settler violence and going completely mask off with kidnapping Oscar winning documentary directors and killing whoever they like. Does anyone care? Is this all OK with the "Israel has the right to defend itself by any means necessary" crew here? Given how much emphasis the "Democrats are helping genocide" people are actually putting on this now that they can't score political brownie points since they aren't in power at the moment? Do you guys care? This is beyond fucked, no one cares...
Threads on this forum can only continue if there's a discussion going on. People who defended Israel don't have much to say anymore because it's now obvious that we were right (not that it wasn't obvious at the time too, tbh), so there's no discussion left.
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What can we do? Padding ourselves on the back that we won the argument on an internet forum? As long as our governments are spineless cowards that treat the conflict as something like what's happening where even we do not care, like africa, there is nothing to do. The issue for Palestinians is that there are killed by a regime that we identify as somewhat part of our responsibility and accountability but in the end not enough to force our governments to affect change.
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Northern Ireland25159 Posts
For myself the situation went from dreadful to pretty much utterly hopeless with an admin that isn’t so much permissive as having no red lines whatsoever.
Hell they’re actively attempting to defang what things can be done by those who care about this humanitarian crisis.
Now, under a hypothetical different US Presidency, wherever those red lines might be drawn would still be likely way insufficient for my tastes and many others, don’t get me wrong there. But at least it would exist at some juncture to prevent further escalation.
I guess some emotional burnout/nihilisitic pessimism or whatever one wishes to call it will take hold in folks eventually.
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I kind of view these threads as a way to keep each other informed and discuss these things in a way that can be helpful to provide insight into what people across the world and across the political spectrum are thinking about these situations.
When people simply nope out even tho this is now escalating to a level that would be straight up unimaginable when the thread was started, I think that people who side with Israel's side here would be pretty livid if after Oct 7th no one here who leans pro-Palestine would have nothing to say, and to me this is a level of escalation that is on par with that, and it comes at a long tail end of more and more escalatory actions of Israel.
If Russia today announced a total mobilization or if Ukraine exploded a dirty bomb in Kremlin I'd expect all the people who usually have things to say about happenings over there to jump in the thread, unfortunately, it seems like for this thread one side of the issue seems content with Israel doing whatever they want and they'll never voluntarily provide any criticism of it, seems pretty morally bankrupt to me.
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For now that's still a pressure tactic.
You don't announce so many times that you'll destroy Hamas if you really intended to do it.
It's only if the occupation works out well for Israel is when things could turn really ugly.
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I fail to see how killing 50 k + people with more then half being women and children is not really ugly.
Not to mention all the record numbers of killed journalists, aid workers, emergency responders, volunteers etc.
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On May 05 2025 23:00 Jankisa wrote:
I fail to see how killing 50 k + people with more then half being women and children is not really ugly.
Not to mention all the record numbers of killed journalists, aid workers, emergency responders, volunteers etc.
Not ugly enough to lose Europe's support. There isn't really even a coherent way to rationalize not sanctioning Israel.
On May 05 2025 20:03 Broetchenholer wrote:What can we do? Padding ourselves on the back that we won the argument on an internet forum? As long as our governments are spineless cowards + Show Spoiler + that treat the conflict as something like what's happening where even we do not care, like africa, there is nothing to do. The issue for Palestinians is that there are killed by a regime that we identify as somewhat part of our responsibility and accountability but in the end not enough to force our governments to affect change.
I believe trying to motivate/organize people in the US (and people who take interest in US/or their own politics) toward electoral or radical political efforts to change those governments is helpful and necessary. More people joining those efforts would funnily enough address Jankisa's complaint.
One of the big problems is that so many democracy enjoyers (basically all of them here) don't want to do the work a democracy takes. That and/or they have been deluded into believing that "the work a democracy takes" means simply periodically voting.
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That "simply periodically voteing" part is one that you can't even get yourself to do so stop trying to patronize others into doing the work you refuse to do yourself. You can't even get over not calling everyone a genocide supporter the first chance you get. The easiest softball to build good will and you can't even bring yourself into that.
For anything to happen in society you need coalition and compromise, something you are alergic to and are actively hostile to anything that doesn't follow your strict moral code.
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On May 06 2025 02:17 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2025 00:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 05 2025 23:00 Jankisa wrote:
I fail to see how killing 50 k + people with more then half being women and children is not really ugly.
Not to mention all the record numbers of killed journalists, aid workers, emergency responders, volunteers etc. Not ugly enough to lose Europe's support. There isn't really even a coherent way to rationalize not sanctioning Israel. On May 05 2025 20:03 Broetchenholer wrote:What can we do? Padding ourselves on the back that we won the argument on an internet forum? As long as our governments are spineless cowards + Show Spoiler + that treat the conflict as something like what's happening where even we do not care, like africa, there is nothing to do. The issue for Palestinians is that there are killed by a regime that we identify as somewhat part of our responsibility and accountability but in the end not enough to force our governments to affect change. I believe trying to motivate/organize people in the US (and people who take interest in US/or their own politics) toward electoral or radical political efforts to change those governments is helpful and necessary. More people joining those efforts would funnily enough address Jankisa's complaint. One of the big problems is that so many democracy enjoyers (basically all of them here) don't want to do the work a democracy takes. That and/or they have been deluded into believing that "the work a democracy takes" means simply periodically voting. That "simply periodically voteing" part is one that you can't even get yourself to do + Show Spoiler + so stop trying to patronize others into doing the work you refuse to do yourself. You can't even get over not calling everyone a genocide supporter the first chance you get. The easiest softball to build good will and you can't even bring yourself into that.
For anything to happen in society you need coalition and compromise, something you are alergic to and are actively hostile to anything that doesn't follow your strict moral code.
Except I voted, and have whenever they send out ballots. Sooo...?
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EPT
