EPTHamas is clearly evil, it is highly unlikely they even give a shit about Palestinian "freedom". None of that changes regardless of your opinion on Israel as a country, their people, or their leadership.
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 394
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Billyboy
1680 Posts
Hamas is clearly evil, it is highly unlikely they even give a shit about Palestinian "freedom". None of that changes regardless of your opinion on Israel as a country, their people, or their leadership. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9840 Posts
On April 14 2025 00:01 Billyboy wrote: Part of Kwark's point is we don't need constant whataboutism, to counter it with whataboutism is not really a counter. Hamas is clearly evil, it is highly unlikely they even give a shit about Palestinian "freedom". None of that changes regardless of your opinion on Israel as a country, their people, or their leadership. I guess I wasn't really responding to his point, I was responding to his use of this specific type of agitprop cos its a thing that grinds my gears. | ||
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Billyboy
1680 Posts
On April 14 2025 00:04 Jockmcplop wrote: I guess I wasn't really responding to his point, I was responding to his use of this specific type of agitprop cos its a thing that grinds my gears. He was just using the most obvious and easy way to say Hamas is not good guys, to a guy who was describing them as good guys. He could have put in a bunch more effort but I'm not sure it would have been more effective. I'm also not sure it was agitprop, Hamas is that bad. Had he tried to use it as justification for the IDF shooting medics or something that sure. But he did not. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23896 Posts
On April 14 2025 00:04 Jockmcplop wrote: It's a modern version of scalping stories during the US's genocide of indigenous tribes. That's probably part of why it grinded your gears.I guess I wasn't really responding to his point, I was responding to his use of this specific type of agitprop cos its a thing that grinds my gears. It also feeds into the myth that there could be a "right way" for Hamas to fight against the ethnic cleansing/genocide of Palestinians and be deemed "the good guys" (good vs bad guys is childish analysis anyway). | ||
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Billyboy
1680 Posts
On April 14 2025 00:47 GreenHorizons wrote: It's a modern version of scalping stories during the US's genocide of indigenous tribes. That's probably part of why it grinded your gears. It also feeds into the myth that there could be a "right way" for Hamas to fight against the ethnic cleansing/genocide of Palestinians and be deemed "the good guys" (good vs bad guys is childish analysis anyway). This is just another complete bullshit take from a guy who makes jokes about active genocides. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9840 Posts
On April 14 2025 00:36 Billyboy wrote: He was just using the most obvious and easy way to say Hamas is not good guys, to a guy who was describing them as good guys. He could have put in a bunch more effort but I'm not sure it would have been more effective. I'm also not sure it was agitprop, Hamas is that bad. Had he tried to use it as justification for the IDF shooting medics or something that sure. But he did not. Well from what I can find its likely not true, for a start. I've never seen any evidence that it is true, and the claims made by Israeli politicians about beheaded babies turned out to be false according to this investigation that had access to all the mobile phone footage etc. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/21/october-7-forensic-analysis-shows-hamas-abuses-many-false-israeli-claims Other claims such as IDF soldiers finding a house with 12 dead burned babies also turned out to be lies. I could be wrong, but a cursory google search finds absolutely nothing about the incident KwarK is talking about except some related - and false - Israeli claims. None of this is to say Hamas are good guys. In terms of running Palestine, they are basically the mafia. People definitely need to be more aware that Israel just lies, and stop repeating their bullshit. Everything their government and army say is a lie. | ||
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Billyboy
1680 Posts
On April 14 2025 01:04 Jockmcplop wrote: Well from what I can find its likely not true, for a start. I've never seen any evidence that it is true, and the claims made by Israeli politicians about beheaded babies turned out to be false according to this investigation that had access to all the mobile phone footage etc. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/21/october-7-forensic-analysis-shows-hamas-abuses-many-false-israeli-claims Other claims such as IDF soldiers finding a house with 12 dead burned babies also turned out to be lies. I could be wrong, but a cursory google search finds absolutely nothing about the incident KwarK is talking about except some related - and false - Israeli claims. None of this is to say Hamas are good guys. In terms of running Palestine, they are basically the mafia. People definitely need to be more aware that Israel just lies, and stop repeating their bullshit. Everything their government and army say is a lie. That is a fair point. And such a challenge is there is so much bullshit information to get through. Depending on where your pre-October leanings are likely depends on what information you have taken in and there is no way to not have that influence anyone. It seems like everything now a days have multiple organized streams of "alternative" facts. And untrue meme's influence people, even long after those people learn they were untrue. You can't trust information coming out from the IDF. You can't trust information coming out from Hamas. You can't trust the MSM. You can't trust "independent" media. You can't trust twitter. You cant' trust influencers. It is extremely hard to even form informed opinions right now, even for those putting in a good faith effort. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9840 Posts
On April 14 2025 01:16 Billyboy wrote: That is a fair point. And such a challenge is there is so much bullshit information to get through. Depending on where your pre-October leanings are likely depends on what information you have taken in and there is no way to not have that influence anyone. It seems like everything now a days have multiple organized streams of "alternative" facts. And untrue meme's influence people, even long after those people learn they were untrue. You can't trust information coming out from the IDF. You can't trust information coming out from Hamas. You can't trust the MSM. You can't trust "independent" media. You can't trust twitter. You cant' trust influencers. It is extremely hard to even form informed opinions right now, even for those putting in a good faith effort. The trick is to not believe 'claims'. There is always some evidence. Believe evidence, even infer things from evidence and use your judgement to figure out what is most likely, but don't believe claims. | ||
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Billyboy
1680 Posts
On April 14 2025 01:39 Jockmcplop wrote: The trick is to not believe 'claims'. There is always some evidence. Believe evidence, even infer things from evidence and use your judgement to figure out what is most likely, but don't believe claims. That is a good start. But it can still lead you astray as the evidence is rarely presented in even handed way. There have also been multiple times Palestinians have been killed by what was presented as the IDF and it turned out to be Hamas. I also don't think our brains are wired to wait for full evidence (if we even ever get it) before coming to conclusions. | ||
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Legan
Finland577 Posts
On April 14 2025 00:47 GreenHorizons wrote: It's a modern version of scalping stories during the US's genocide of indigenous tribes. That's probably part of why it grinded your gears. It also feeds into the myth that there could be a "right way" for Hamas to fight against the ethnic cleansing/genocide of Palestinians and be deemed "the good guys" (good vs bad guys is childish analysis anyway). This myth is really annoying, especially when other sides' actions are analysed, understood, and justified with a very lax attitude. The following things are either totally normal or evil depending solely on who is doing them: - Being allies with those willing to provide support when options are minimal. - Bolstering your identity, culture, religion and ideology while differentiating from the enemy and painting the enemy's culture, religion and ideology as wrong. Morale, in general, is really important. - Leaders talk differently to different audiences. No leader is going to talk about how fucked they are in front of their supporters. - Prioritising resources for those fighting. - The effectiveness of strategy is more important than doing it the morally correct way. You do not want to waste manpower and resources just to win the approval of those who are not really willing to help. Usually, when asked how Palestinians should oppose Israel, answers are either totally ineffective or amount to total surrender and acceptance of one's fate. Later one shows how incapable people are of putting themselves in the situation. Another thing I find interesting for the future in mind is what kind of technology would be acceptable to use against oppressive enemies with smart weapons that can kill individual humans from thousands of kilometres away. Would you need to match your enemy's technology level and accuracy even if your capabilities are much more limited? When killing individual humans accurately is possible, is using a weapon that kills two barbaric? | ||
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Billyboy
1680 Posts
On April 14 2025 03:13 Legan wrote: This myth is really annoying, especially when other sides' actions are analysed, understood, and justified with a very lax attitude. The following things are either totally normal or evil depending solely on who is doing them: - Being allies with those willing to provide support when options are minimal. - Bolstering your identity, culture, religion and ideology while differentiating from the enemy and painting the enemy's culture, religion and ideology as wrong. Morale, in general, is really important. - Leaders talk differently to different audiences. No leader is going to talk about how fucked they are in front of their supporters. - Prioritising resources for those fighting. - The effectiveness of strategy is more important than doing it the morally correct way. You do not want to waste manpower and resources just to win the approval of those who are not really willing to help. Usually, when asked how Palestinians should oppose Israel, answers are either totally ineffective or amount to total surrender and acceptance of one's fate. Later one shows how incapable people are of putting themselves in the situation. Another thing I find interesting for the future in mind is what kind of technology would be acceptable to use against oppressive enemies with smart weapons that can kill individual humans from thousands of kilometres away. Would you need to match your enemy's technology level and accuracy even if your capabilities are much more limited? When killing individual humans accurately is possible, is using a weapon that kills two barbaric? Sound similar to the suggestions on how the IDF should fight Hamas. There is a fairly easy thought experiment to determine if Hamas is fighting for the Palestinians or purely out of hatred of Israel and Jews. Just look at their actions and say does this make sense if they wanted it to be better for the Palestinians. Look at the conditions in Gaza and compare them to Yemen, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan before Oct 7th and then now. And then try to figure out how this plan makes it better for the Palestinians ever? Now look at their actions if their motivations are purely anti Israel/jew, where they give no fucks about the Palestinians. Where in fact the worse it is for the Palestinians the worse Israel looks on the world stage. Reality is this attack and the aftermath may bring Israel closer to its demise and all those people being slaughtered, or it might end up with a even stronger Israel. Time will tell. All we know for sure is that Hamas actions have purposefully lead to the mass destruction of Gaza and massive amounts of dead and maimed Palestinians. | ||
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pmp10
3396 Posts
On April 14 2025 03:56 Billyboy wrote: Reality is this attack and the aftermath may bring Israel closer to its demise and all those people being slaughtered, or it might end up with a even stronger Israel. Time will tell. All we know for sure is that Hamas actions have purposefully lead to the mass destruction of Gaza and massive amounts of dead and maimed Palestinians. There is also an argument to be made that it was a massive miscalculation on their part. It's not like Palestinian's fate was ever going to improve if they took no action. | ||
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Billyboy
1680 Posts
On April 14 2025 04:18 pmp10 wrote: There is also an argument to be made that it was a massive miscalculation on their part. It's not like Palestinian's fate was ever going to improve if they took no action. It was getting better in Gaza every year, imagine what it would have been like if they had spent the millions or billions on improving the peoples lives instead of tunnels, rockets and other weapons. | ||
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pmp10
3396 Posts
The charge that they refused to sell-out seems a little odd given their aims. | ||
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Billyboy
1680 Posts
On April 14 2025 04:33 pmp10 wrote: Those millions were never getting them independence or statehood. The charge that they refused to sell-out seems a little odd given their aims. This is never getting them independence or statehood. But got a shit ton of them killed and all their infrastructure destroyed. | ||
KwarK
United States43953 Posts
On April 14 2025 00:47 GreenHorizons wrote: It's a modern version of scalping stories during the US's genocide of indigenous tribes. That's probably part of why it grinded your gears. It also feeds into the myth that there could be a "right way" for Hamas to fight against the ethnic cleansing/genocide of Palestinians and be deemed "the good guys" (good vs bad guys is childish analysis anyway). You don’t need to be able to explicitly define an exact right way to know that raping people is a wrong way. Only a sociopath can’t see that some things are definitely the wrong way. Are you a sociopath GH? Or are you able to recognize that the sexual violence committed by Hamas is wrong? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12449 Posts
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stilt
France2755 Posts
On April 14 2025 08:10 KwarK wrote: You don’t need to be able to explicitly define an exact right way to know that raping people is a wrong way. Only a sociopath can’t see that some things are definitely the wrong way. Are you a sociopath GH? Or are you able to recognize that the sexual violence committed by Hamas is wrong? Kwark the negationnist trying to take the morale highground is pretty ironic. Considering your constant justification of the ongoing genocide and of past israeli actions, you should keep quiet. And GH is totally right, the scalping practice was instrumentalyzed in order to justify the genocide of the indians. Do I think scalping corpses is bad ? Or rape is bad ? Yeah but what Israel is doing (or what america did) is a whole other dimension. Just like the shoah per bullet was presented by the nazi as anti partisan action. No doubt at this point you would have been one of them and portrayed the soviet resistance as terrorists while million of jews get shot at. | ||
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KwarK
United States43953 Posts
On April 14 2025 18:38 Nebuchad wrote: Which would you say is the lesser evil between the IDF under Netanyahu's rule and Hamas, Kwarky boy? That question needs a whole lot more context to begin to address it. | ||
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Billyboy
1680 Posts
On April 14 2025 19:55 stilt wrote: Kwark the negationnist trying to take the morale highground is pretty ironic. Considering your constant justification of the ongoing genocide and of past israeli actions, you should keep quiet. And GH is totally right, the scalping practice was instrumentalyzed in order to justify the genocide of the indians. Do I think scalping corpses is bad ? Or rape is bad ? Yeah but what Israel is doing (or what america did) is a whole other dimension. Just like the shoah per bullet was presented by the nazi as anti partisan action. No doubt at this point you would have been one of them and portrayed the soviet resistance as terrorists while million of jews get shot at. You didn't need justification back in that time period. Geocoding, slave trade and so on were just common practice. Bow down to power or die. What Israel has done is awful, but it is in no way unique. Look just next door in Syria and in all sorts of pockets in the middle east. Same with many spots in Africa. Same with Ukraine. What is unique is how politicized it is, and how much attention it gets. Hell what Israel is doing is what some people are calling for to happen to 'Fascists". The scary sad part is how not unique it is. That they have this power imbalance and didn't do something this awful or way worse sooner is maybe unique. | ||
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