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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
Hungary didn't forget, they just said they are planning to leave the institution. Probably not just because of Netanyahu but also because there is a non-0 chance that Orban himself might end up there one day.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g2z103nqxo
Mobile phone footage has emerged that appears to contradict Israel's account of why soldiers opened fire on a convoy of ambulances and a fire truck on March 23, killing 15 rescue workers.
The video, published by the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), shows the vehicles moving in darkness with headlights and emergency flashing lights switched on - before coming under fire. The PRCS said the video was obtained from the phone of a paramedic who was killed.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) initially denied the vehicles had their headlights or emergency signals on.
But in response to the new video, the IDF told the BBC: "All claims, including the documentation circulating about the incident, will be thoroughly and deeply examined to understand the sequence of events and the handling of the situation".
A surviving paramedic previously told the BBC that the ambulances were clearly marked and had their internal and external lights on.
The latest video, which the PRCS said had been shown to the UN Security Council, shows the marked vehicles drawing to a halt on the edge of the road, lights still flashing, and at least two emergency workers stepping out wearing reflective clothing.
Lies lies and more lies.
When you have to lie to cover up the murder of innocent civilians, because doing so allows you to murder more innocent civilians with impunity, maybe you aren't the good guys.
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United States42959 Posts
I think we ran out of good guys in the Palestinian war a long time ago.
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Northern Ireland25630 Posts
On April 06 2025 10:08 KwarK wrote:
I think we ran out of good guys in the Palestinian war a long time ago.
Is the IDF’s attrition rate that high? /s
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On April 05 2025 23:31 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g2z103nqxoShow nested quote +Mobile phone footage has emerged that appears to contradict Israel's account of why soldiers opened fire on a convoy of ambulances and a fire truck on March 23, killing 15 rescue workers.
The video, published by the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), shows the vehicles moving in darkness with headlights and emergency flashing lights switched on - before coming under fire. The PRCS said the video was obtained from the phone of a paramedic who was killed.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) initially denied the vehicles had their headlights or emergency signals on.
But in response to the new video, the IDF told the BBC: "All claims, including the documentation circulating about the incident, will be thoroughly and deeply examined to understand the sequence of events and the handling of the situation".
A surviving paramedic previously told the BBC that the ambulances were clearly marked and had their internal and external lights on.
The latest video, which the PRCS said had been shown to the UN Security Council, shows the marked vehicles drawing to a halt on the edge of the road, lights still flashing, and at least two emergency workers stepping out wearing reflective clothing. Lies lies and more lies. When you have to lie to cover up the murder of innocent civilians, because doing so allows you to murder more innocent civilians with impunity, maybe you aren't the good guys.
To be honest, for me, Israelis killing palestinian or people helping palestinian is too common to be news. Killing 15 medics is nothing in the grand scheme of ongoing, year(s) long genocide / mass murder. And I am certain that the Israelis had killed way more palestinian medics in this ongoing ethnic cleansing / genocide operation.
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On April 03 2025 18:26 Gorsameth wrote:Hungary didn't forget, they just said they are planning to leave the institution. Probably not just because of Netanyahu but also because there is a non-0 chance that Orban himself might end up there one day.
What is the reaction by the USA or EU?
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On April 11 2025 00:50 mounteast02 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2025 23:31 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g2z103nqxoMobile phone footage has emerged that appears to contradict Israel's account of why soldiers opened fire on a convoy of ambulances and a fire truck on March 23, killing 15 rescue workers.
The video, published by the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), shows the vehicles moving in darkness with headlights and emergency flashing lights switched on - before coming under fire. The PRCS said the video was obtained from the phone of a paramedic who was killed.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) initially denied the vehicles had their headlights or emergency signals on.
But in response to the new video, the IDF told the BBC: "All claims, including the documentation circulating about the incident, will be thoroughly and deeply examined to understand the sequence of events and the handling of the situation".
A surviving paramedic previously told the BBC that the ambulances were clearly marked and had their internal and external lights on.
The latest video, which the PRCS said had been shown to the UN Security Council, shows the marked vehicles drawing to a halt on the edge of the road, lights still flashing, and at least two emergency workers stepping out wearing reflective clothing. Lies lies and more lies. When you have to lie to cover up the murder of innocent civilians, because doing so allows you to murder more innocent civilians with impunity, maybe you aren't the good guys. To be honest, for me, Israelis killing palestinian or people helping palestinian is too common to be news. Killing 15 medics is nothing in the grand scheme of ongoing, year(s) long genocide / mass murder. And I am certain that the Israelis had killed way more palestinian medics in this ongoing ethnic cleansing / genocide operation.
Its less about what they did and more about the lies.
How many times have they released statements that are taken as true about how many terrorists they are killing.
Every single one of those statements now can be assumed to be a lie, and definitely should be in lieu of evidence.
That's hundreds of killings that can be assumed to be mostly civilians, which Israel casually says 'Nah they were terrorists'. Its very important to keep pointing out every time they get investigated, which inevitably leads to their lies being exposed.
At this point, i'm more confident about getting truth from Hamas.
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On April 11 2025 00:59 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2025 00:50 mounteast02 wrote:On April 05 2025 23:31 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g2z103nqxoMobile phone footage has emerged that appears to contradict Israel's account of why soldiers opened fire on a convoy of ambulances and a fire truck on March 23, killing 15 rescue workers.
The video, published by the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), shows the vehicles moving in darkness with headlights and emergency flashing lights switched on - before coming under fire. The PRCS said the video was obtained from the phone of a paramedic who was killed.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) initially denied the vehicles had their headlights or emergency signals on.
But in response to the new video, the IDF told the BBC: "All claims, including the documentation circulating about the incident, will be thoroughly and deeply examined to understand the sequence of events and the handling of the situation".
A surviving paramedic previously told the BBC that the ambulances were clearly marked and had their internal and external lights on.
The latest video, which the PRCS said had been shown to the UN Security Council, shows the marked vehicles drawing to a halt on the edge of the road, lights still flashing, and at least two emergency workers stepping out wearing reflective clothing. Lies lies and more lies. When you have to lie to cover up the murder of innocent civilians, because doing so allows you to murder more innocent civilians with impunity, maybe you aren't the good guys. To be honest, for me, Israelis killing palestinian or people helping palestinian is too common to be news. Killing 15 medics is nothing in the grand scheme of ongoing, year(s) long genocide / mass murder. And I am certain that the Israelis had killed way more palestinian medics in this ongoing ethnic cleansing / genocide operation. Its less about what they did and more about the lies. How many times have they released statements that are taken as true about how many terrorists they are killing. Every single one of those statements now can be assumed to be a lie, and definitely should be in lieu of evidence. That's hundreds of killings that can be assumed to be mostly civilians, which Israel casually says 'Nah they were terrorists'. What difference does that make?
It's not like this is a new phenomena. Israel murders people, lies about it, gets exposed, the US protects them from international law, then sends another shipment of weapons for Israel to do it again.
That's been happening under Democrats and Republicans for decades, that's just who/what they are.
Biden and Harris were even doing it against popular public opinion, that part was new.
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On April 11 2025 01:05 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2025 00:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 11 2025 00:50 mounteast02 wrote:On April 05 2025 23:31 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g2z103nqxoMobile phone footage has emerged that appears to contradict Israel's account of why soldiers opened fire on a convoy of ambulances and a fire truck on March 23, killing 15 rescue workers.
The video, published by the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), shows the vehicles moving in darkness with headlights and emergency flashing lights switched on - before coming under fire. The PRCS said the video was obtained from the phone of a paramedic who was killed.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) initially denied the vehicles had their headlights or emergency signals on.
But in response to the new video, the IDF told the BBC: "All claims, including the documentation circulating about the incident, will be thoroughly and deeply examined to understand the sequence of events and the handling of the situation".
A surviving paramedic previously told the BBC that the ambulances were clearly marked and had their internal and external lights on.
The latest video, which the PRCS said had been shown to the UN Security Council, shows the marked vehicles drawing to a halt on the edge of the road, lights still flashing, and at least two emergency workers stepping out wearing reflective clothing. Lies lies and more lies. When you have to lie to cover up the murder of innocent civilians, because doing so allows you to murder more innocent civilians with impunity, maybe you aren't the good guys. To be honest, for me, Israelis killing palestinian or people helping palestinian is too common to be news. Killing 15 medics is nothing in the grand scheme of ongoing, year(s) long genocide / mass murder. And I am certain that the Israelis had killed way more palestinian medics in this ongoing ethnic cleansing / genocide operation. Its less about what they did and more about the lies. How many times have they released statements that are taken as true about how many terrorists they are killing. Every single one of those statements now can be assumed to be a lie, and definitely should be in lieu of evidence. That's hundreds of killings that can be assumed to be mostly civilians, which Israel casually says 'Nah they were terrorists'. What difference does that make? It's not like this is a new phenomena. Israel murders people, lies about it, gets exposed, the US protects them from international law, then sends another shipment of weapons for Israel to do it again. That's been happening under Democrats and Republicans for decades, that's just who/what they are. Biden and Harris were even doing it against popular public opinion, that part was new.
I suppose I'm naive enough to think public opinion can significantly shift when enough people are exposed to the undeniable reality of the situation. Not everything works the same way as the Trump phenomenon.
There's levels to that game.
Exposing lies like this is a really good way to go about things.
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On April 11 2025 01:16 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2025 01:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 11 2025 00:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 11 2025 00:50 mounteast02 wrote:On April 05 2025 23:31 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g2z103nqxoMobile phone footage has emerged that appears to contradict Israel's account of why soldiers opened fire on a convoy of ambulances and a fire truck on March 23, killing 15 rescue workers.
The video, published by the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), shows the vehicles moving in darkness with headlights and emergency flashing lights switched on - before coming under fire. The PRCS said the video was obtained from the phone of a paramedic who was killed.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) initially denied the vehicles had their headlights or emergency signals on.
But in response to the new video, the IDF told the BBC: "All claims, including the documentation circulating about the incident, will be thoroughly and deeply examined to understand the sequence of events and the handling of the situation".
A surviving paramedic previously told the BBC that the ambulances were clearly marked and had their internal and external lights on.
The latest video, which the PRCS said had been shown to the UN Security Council, shows the marked vehicles drawing to a halt on the edge of the road, lights still flashing, and at least two emergency workers stepping out wearing reflective clothing. Lies lies and more lies. When you have to lie to cover up the murder of innocent civilians, because doing so allows you to murder more innocent civilians with impunity, maybe you aren't the good guys. To be honest, for me, Israelis killing palestinian or people helping palestinian is too common to be news. Killing 15 medics is nothing in the grand scheme of ongoing, year(s) long genocide / mass murder. And I am certain that the Israelis had killed way more palestinian medics in this ongoing ethnic cleansing / genocide operation. Its less about what they did and more about the lies. How many times have they released statements that are taken as true about how many terrorists they are killing. Every single one of those statements now can be assumed to be a lie, and definitely should be in lieu of evidence. That's hundreds of killings that can be assumed to be mostly civilians, which Israel casually says 'Nah they were terrorists'. What difference does that make? It's not like this is a new phenomena. Israel murders people, lies about it, gets exposed, the US protects them from international law, then sends another shipment of weapons for Israel to do it again. That's been happening under Democrats and Republicans for decades, that's just who/what they are. Biden and Harris were even doing it against popular public opinion, that part was new. I suppose I'm naive enough to think public opinion can significantly shift when enough people are exposed to the undeniable reality of the situation. Not everything works the same way as the Trump phenomenon. There's levels to that game. Exposing lies like this is a really good way to go about things.
Not to belabor it, but what good did public opinion opposing the continued arming of Israel do though?
Fifty-two percent of Americans agree that the US government should halt weapons shipments to Israel
Biden voters support blocking arms shipments by strong 62%–14% majority
cepr.net
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Northern Ireland25630 Posts
On April 11 2025 00:59 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2025 00:50 mounteast02 wrote:On April 05 2025 23:31 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g2z103nqxoMobile phone footage has emerged that appears to contradict Israel's account of why soldiers opened fire on a convoy of ambulances and a fire truck on March 23, killing 15 rescue workers.
The video, published by the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), shows the vehicles moving in darkness with headlights and emergency flashing lights switched on - before coming under fire. The PRCS said the video was obtained from the phone of a paramedic who was killed.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) initially denied the vehicles had their headlights or emergency signals on.
But in response to the new video, the IDF told the BBC: "All claims, including the documentation circulating about the incident, will be thoroughly and deeply examined to understand the sequence of events and the handling of the situation".
A surviving paramedic previously told the BBC that the ambulances were clearly marked and had their internal and external lights on.
The latest video, which the PRCS said had been shown to the UN Security Council, shows the marked vehicles drawing to a halt on the edge of the road, lights still flashing, and at least two emergency workers stepping out wearing reflective clothing. Lies lies and more lies. When you have to lie to cover up the murder of innocent civilians, because doing so allows you to murder more innocent civilians with impunity, maybe you aren't the good guys. To be honest, for me, Israelis killing palestinian or people helping palestinian is too common to be news. Killing 15 medics is nothing in the grand scheme of ongoing, year(s) long genocide / mass murder. And I am certain that the Israelis had killed way more palestinian medics in this ongoing ethnic cleansing / genocide operation. Its less about what they did and more about the lies. How many times have they released statements that are taken as true about how many terrorists they are killing. Every single one of those statements now can be assumed to be a lie, and definitely should be in lieu of evidence. That's hundreds of killings that can be assumed to be mostly civilians, which Israel casually says 'Nah they were terrorists'. Its very important to keep pointing out every time they get investigated, which inevitably leads to their lies being exposed. At this point, i'm more confident about getting truth from Hamas.
Just to be clear, you’re accusing the IDF of lying in this particular case? With their spotless record?
You mean to tell me the unmarked vehicles of medical volunteers, who were acting suspiciously by turning off their lights were actually travelling with the markings of their insignia
And this came to light after a subsequent sortie dug these folks up from a shallow grave, uniformed and all and a mobile phone was found that showed their vehicles all had their lights on prior to being attacked?
Like any military force, especially one with a conscription element, it’s absolutely not everyone in the IDF.
But if anyone actually believes some elements don’t engage in war crimes, and the considerably worse practice of upper echelons covering this up, I have a great new crypto investment called WombaTCoin to sell you.
‘Fun’ little factoid but in the modern era, the IDF has killed more Irish peacekeepers than any other force. In the IDF’s defence of course it’s very easy to mistake UN Peacekeepers, operating out of locations shared prior to them, for Hamas fighters
Look I don’t expect much from the States but could some of us over in Europe show at least some balls at a state level? Maybe?
My patrilineal side has been going with BDS on a personal level since my grandfather got on board, and I’ve inherited that particular policy
But it’s only got so much teeth, even if everyone got on board. Israel doesn’t export a huge amount of consumer produce to the UK for one.
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On April 11 2025 01:28 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2025 01:16 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 11 2025 01:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 11 2025 00:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 11 2025 00:50 mounteast02 wrote:On April 05 2025 23:31 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g2z103nqxoMobile phone footage has emerged that appears to contradict Israel's account of why soldiers opened fire on a convoy of ambulances and a fire truck on March 23, killing 15 rescue workers.
The video, published by the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), shows the vehicles moving in darkness with headlights and emergency flashing lights switched on - before coming under fire. The PRCS said the video was obtained from the phone of a paramedic who was killed.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) initially denied the vehicles had their headlights or emergency signals on.
But in response to the new video, the IDF told the BBC: "All claims, including the documentation circulating about the incident, will be thoroughly and deeply examined to understand the sequence of events and the handling of the situation".
A surviving paramedic previously told the BBC that the ambulances were clearly marked and had their internal and external lights on.
The latest video, which the PRCS said had been shown to the UN Security Council, shows the marked vehicles drawing to a halt on the edge of the road, lights still flashing, and at least two emergency workers stepping out wearing reflective clothing. Lies lies and more lies. When you have to lie to cover up the murder of innocent civilians, because doing so allows you to murder more innocent civilians with impunity, maybe you aren't the good guys. To be honest, for me, Israelis killing palestinian or people helping palestinian is too common to be news. Killing 15 medics is nothing in the grand scheme of ongoing, year(s) long genocide / mass murder. And I am certain that the Israelis had killed way more palestinian medics in this ongoing ethnic cleansing / genocide operation. Its less about what they did and more about the lies. How many times have they released statements that are taken as true about how many terrorists they are killing. Every single one of those statements now can be assumed to be a lie, and definitely should be in lieu of evidence. That's hundreds of killings that can be assumed to be mostly civilians, which Israel casually says 'Nah they were terrorists'. What difference does that make? It's not like this is a new phenomena. Israel murders people, lies about it, gets exposed, the US protects them from international law, then sends another shipment of weapons for Israel to do it again. That's been happening under Democrats and Republicans for decades, that's just who/what they are. Biden and Harris were even doing it against popular public opinion, that part was new. I suppose I'm naive enough to think public opinion can significantly shift when enough people are exposed to the undeniable reality of the situation. Not everything works the same way as the Trump phenomenon. There's levels to that game. Exposing lies like this is a really good way to go about things. Not to belabor it, but what good did public opinion opposing the continued arming of Israel do though? Show nested quote + Fifty-two percent of Americans agree that the US government should halt weapons shipments to Israel
Biden voters support blocking arms shipments by strong 62%–14% majority cepr.net
That's why I said there are levels to the game.
52% of Americans thinking the opposite to the government is not the same as 80% of Americans being really angry about what the government is doing.
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Thank you for the non pay-walled copy in post #7814.
I am a bit hesitant to response to this because of the nature of political discussion. There is disagreement on the interpretation of fact, which should be dealt with an honest and open discussion. However, there are disagreement on the fact itself, which I do not know to deal with this issue.
The paper was published by the think tank "Atlantic Council", which should raise some alarm.
For the sake of completeness, I will oversimplify summarize the article.
The main point of the article are:
1, Hamas bad
2, palestinian should work with the Israelis and treat the Israelis as their ally.
The "Hamas" bad point mostly based on their refusal to recognise the state of israel, but that is factually wrong as hamas changed their charter in 2017 to accept the 1967 boarder. That, by itself is a de facto recognising the state of Israel. But somehow, no one from the pro-Israelis side ever mention it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders
If "hamas bad" is based on its resistance to Israelis occupation, then I don't know what to say.
For the second point, for the sake of the argument, assuming ignore everything the palestinian said, including the governing body / official from Gaza and civilian. We still have abundant genocidal statement coming from various Israelis official, including prime minister, cabinet ministers, ambassadors, etc. Also, we have abundant evidence, report, tesimonies from human right group, UN, non palestinian aid worker working in gaza stating the horror of the palestinian experiencing.
The Israelis army's rich history in destroying civilian structures incluing schools, university, water treatment / sewage facilities. Denying food, water, fuel and medical equipment and supply from getting into gaza. As well as murder and abduct of medical professional from gaza. The Israelis did not stop talking about ethnic cleansing gaza till this day.
If we zoom out a bit, the Israelis had been robbing land from palestinian in the west bank for decades, and accelerated since 2018, before oct 2023, and continued since then. West Bank is not controlled by hamas, but rather the palestinian authority, which more or less can be consider as the agent for Israelis. The PA did very little to stop Israelis settler, back up by the Israelis army, to take life, land and water from palestinian.
If we zoom out even further, the Israelis violate the ceasefire agreement with lebanon and refuse to withdraw from lebanon, and take syria land without syrian army attacking Israel. Part of the Israel government / society are pushing for taking southern lebanon, half of syria. The Israelis army had been bombing syria continuously without syrian army showing any aggression to the Israelis.
How on earth could the palestinian work with the Israelis? The choice for palestinian is simple, be the slave of the Israelis (if it is actually possible), die quietly, or fight until the bitter end. To tell the palestinian to work with the Israelis as an ally is like telling the rape victim that she is going to be raped anyway, so why not enjoy the intercourse?
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On April 11 2025 01:29 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2025 01:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 11 2025 01:16 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 11 2025 01:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 11 2025 00:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 11 2025 00:50 mounteast02 wrote:On April 05 2025 23:31 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g2z103nqxoMobile phone footage has emerged that appears to contradict Israel's account of why soldiers opened fire on a convoy of ambulances and a fire truck on March 23, killing 15 rescue workers.
The video, published by the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), shows the vehicles moving in darkness with headlights and emergency flashing lights switched on - before coming under fire. The PRCS said the video was obtained from the phone of a paramedic who was killed.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) initially denied the vehicles had their headlights or emergency signals on.
But in response to the new video, the IDF told the BBC: "All claims, including the documentation circulating about the incident, will be thoroughly and deeply examined to understand the sequence of events and the handling of the situation".
A surviving paramedic previously told the BBC that the ambulances were clearly marked and had their internal and external lights on.
The latest video, which the PRCS said had been shown to the UN Security Council, shows the marked vehicles drawing to a halt on the edge of the road, lights still flashing, and at least two emergency workers stepping out wearing reflective clothing. Lies lies and more lies. When you have to lie to cover up the murder of innocent civilians, because doing so allows you to murder more innocent civilians with impunity, maybe you aren't the good guys. To be honest, for me, Israelis killing palestinian or people helping palestinian is too common to be news. Killing 15 medics is nothing in the grand scheme of ongoing, year(s) long genocide / mass murder. And I am certain that the Israelis had killed way more palestinian medics in this ongoing ethnic cleansing / genocide operation. Its less about what they did and more about the lies. How many times have they released statements that are taken as true about how many terrorists they are killing. Every single one of those statements now can be assumed to be a lie, and definitely should be in lieu of evidence. That's hundreds of killings that can be assumed to be mostly civilians, which Israel casually says 'Nah they were terrorists'. What difference does that make? It's not like this is a new phenomena. Israel murders people, lies about it, gets exposed, the US protects them from international law, then sends another shipment of weapons for Israel to do it again. That's been happening under Democrats and Republicans for decades, that's just who/what they are. Biden and Harris were even doing it against popular public opinion, that part was new. I suppose I'm naive enough to think public opinion can significantly shift when enough people are exposed to the undeniable reality of the situation. Not everything works the same way as the Trump phenomenon. There's levels to that game. Exposing lies like this is a really good way to go about things. Not to belabor it, but what good did public opinion opposing the continued arming of Israel do though? Fifty-two percent of Americans agree that the US government should halt weapons shipments to Israel
Biden voters support blocking arms shipments by strong 62%–14% majority cepr.net That's why I said there are levels to the game. 52% of Americans thinking the opposite to the government is not the same as 80% of Americans being really angry about what the government is doing.
It was a 62%-14% and Democrats had to materially support aiding and abetting what they themselves identified as genocide because they didn't believe they had any other choice despite the choice being 100% within the control of those Democrats.
Universal background checks has had 85%+ support for a decade or longer
What good has that done?
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On April 11 2025 01:46 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2025 01:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 11 2025 01:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 11 2025 01:16 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 11 2025 01:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 11 2025 00:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 11 2025 00:50 mounteast02 wrote:On April 05 2025 23:31 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g2z103nqxoMobile phone footage has emerged that appears to contradict Israel's account of why soldiers opened fire on a convoy of ambulances and a fire truck on March 23, killing 15 rescue workers.
The video, published by the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), shows the vehicles moving in darkness with headlights and emergency flashing lights switched on - before coming under fire. The PRCS said the video was obtained from the phone of a paramedic who was killed.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) initially denied the vehicles had their headlights or emergency signals on.
But in response to the new video, the IDF told the BBC: "All claims, including the documentation circulating about the incident, will be thoroughly and deeply examined to understand the sequence of events and the handling of the situation".
A surviving paramedic previously told the BBC that the ambulances were clearly marked and had their internal and external lights on.
The latest video, which the PRCS said had been shown to the UN Security Council, shows the marked vehicles drawing to a halt on the edge of the road, lights still flashing, and at least two emergency workers stepping out wearing reflective clothing. Lies lies and more lies. When you have to lie to cover up the murder of innocent civilians, because doing so allows you to murder more innocent civilians with impunity, maybe you aren't the good guys. To be honest, for me, Israelis killing palestinian or people helping palestinian is too common to be news. Killing 15 medics is nothing in the grand scheme of ongoing, year(s) long genocide / mass murder. And I am certain that the Israelis had killed way more palestinian medics in this ongoing ethnic cleansing / genocide operation. Its less about what they did and more about the lies. How many times have they released statements that are taken as true about how many terrorists they are killing. Every single one of those statements now can be assumed to be a lie, and definitely should be in lieu of evidence. That's hundreds of killings that can be assumed to be mostly civilians, which Israel casually says 'Nah they were terrorists'. What difference does that make? It's not like this is a new phenomena. Israel murders people, lies about it, gets exposed, the US protects them from international law, then sends another shipment of weapons for Israel to do it again. That's been happening under Democrats and Republicans for decades, that's just who/what they are. Biden and Harris were even doing it against popular public opinion, that part was new. I suppose I'm naive enough to think public opinion can significantly shift when enough people are exposed to the undeniable reality of the situation. Not everything works the same way as the Trump phenomenon. There's levels to that game. Exposing lies like this is a really good way to go about things. Not to belabor it, but what good did public opinion opposing the continued arming of Israel do though? Fifty-two percent of Americans agree that the US government should halt weapons shipments to Israel
Biden voters support blocking arms shipments by strong 62%–14% majority cepr.net That's why I said there are levels to the game. 52% of Americans thinking the opposite to the government is not the same as 80% of Americans being really angry about what the government is doing. It was a 62%-14% and Democrats had to materially support aiding and abetting what they themselves identified as genocide because they didn't believe they had any other choice despite the choice being 100% within the control of those Democrats. Universal background checks has had 85%+ support for a decade or longerWhat good has that done?
If I could be bothered to do the research I'm sure I could come up with loads of examples of public opinion driving change as well.
Maybe not when it comes to foreign policy.
Either way, more truth is better, and having people recognize that Israel cannot be trusted to ever tell the truth about anything is important, even if it doesn't drive America to change. There's a whole world over the ocean you know.
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On April 11 2025 01:53 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2025 01:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 11 2025 01:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 11 2025 01:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 11 2025 01:16 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 11 2025 01:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 11 2025 00:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 11 2025 00:50 mounteast02 wrote:On April 05 2025 23:31 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g2z103nqxoMobile phone footage has emerged that appears to contradict Israel's account of why soldiers opened fire on a convoy of ambulances and a fire truck on March 23, killing 15 rescue workers.
The video, published by the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), shows the vehicles moving in darkness with headlights and emergency flashing lights switched on - before coming under fire. The PRCS said the video was obtained from the phone of a paramedic who was killed.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) initially denied the vehicles had their headlights or emergency signals on.
But in response to the new video, the IDF told the BBC: "All claims, including the documentation circulating about the incident, will be thoroughly and deeply examined to understand the sequence of events and the handling of the situation".
A surviving paramedic previously told the BBC that the ambulances were clearly marked and had their internal and external lights on.
The latest video, which the PRCS said had been shown to the UN Security Council, shows the marked vehicles drawing to a halt on the edge of the road, lights still flashing, and at least two emergency workers stepping out wearing reflective clothing. Lies lies and more lies. When you have to lie to cover up the murder of innocent civilians, because doing so allows you to murder more innocent civilians with impunity, maybe you aren't the good guys. To be honest, for me, Israelis killing palestinian or people helping palestinian is too common to be news. Killing 15 medics is nothing in the grand scheme of ongoing, year(s) long genocide / mass murder. And I am certain that the Israelis had killed way more palestinian medics in this ongoing ethnic cleansing / genocide operation. Its less about what they did and more about the lies. How many times have they released statements that are taken as true about how many terrorists they are killing. Every single one of those statements now can be assumed to be a lie, and definitely should be in lieu of evidence. That's hundreds of killings that can be assumed to be mostly civilians, which Israel casually says 'Nah they were terrorists'. What difference does that make? It's not like this is a new phenomena. Israel murders people, lies about it, gets exposed, the US protects them from international law, then sends another shipment of weapons for Israel to do it again. That's been happening under Democrats and Republicans for decades, that's just who/what they are. Biden and Harris were even doing it against popular public opinion, that part was new. I suppose I'm naive enough to think public opinion can significantly shift when enough people are exposed to the undeniable reality of the situation. Not everything works the same way as the Trump phenomenon. There's levels to that game. Exposing lies like this is a really good way to go about things. Not to belabor it, but what good did public opinion opposing the continued arming of Israel do though? Fifty-two percent of Americans agree that the US government should halt weapons shipments to Israel
Biden voters support blocking arms shipments by strong 62%–14% majority cepr.net That's why I said there are levels to the game. 52% of Americans thinking the opposite to the government is not the same as 80% of Americans being really angry about what the government is doing. It was a 62%-14% and Democrats had to materially support aiding and abetting what they themselves identified as genocide because they didn't believe they had any other choice despite the choice being 100% within the control of those Democrats. Universal background checks has had 85%+ support for a decade or longerWhat good has that done? If I could be bothered to do the research I'm sure I could come up with loads of examples of public opinion driving change as well. Maybe not when it comes to foreign policy. Either way, more truth is better, and having people recognize that Israel cannot be trusted to ever tell the truth about anything is important, even if it doesn't drive America to change. There's a whole world over the ocean you know. Perhaps if/when you've done that your position will be better informed.
Is it better to have example 13124255262624 of the "Israel murders people, lies about it, gets exposed, the US protects them from international law, then sends another shipment of weapons for Israel to do it again" cycle than not to have it? Probably? My point is that it doesn't seem to be doing any good (which you haven't refuted).
One mistake is believing that change is driven by the number of supporters rather than what a minimum number of supporters are willing to do to achieve their goals.
It's not that more people need to be convinced to stop Israel's genocide of Palestinians, it's that the people in the West that ostensibly want to stop the genocide of Palestinians have to actually do more.
Maybe we can't muster the courage to do things like physically impede the ability of weapon manufacturers to send weapons to Israel, but we can at least emphatically support the people that do for example.
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On April 11 2025 02:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
Perhaps if/when you've done that your position will be better informed.
If you're reading this i'm sticking my middle finger up at you for this.
Is it better to have example 13124255262624 of the "Israel murders people, lies about it, gets exposed, the US protects them from international law, then sends another shipment of weapons for Israel to do it again" cycle than not to have it? Probably? My point is that it doesn't seem to be doing any good (which you haven't refuted).
One mistake is believing that change is driven by the number of supporters rather than what a minimum number of supporters are willing to do to achieve their goals.
Is it better to shut up and not say anything when Israel gets caught in lies?
That's certainly what my government thinks, and what the Israeli government thinks.
Its not what I think, and I'm surprised which side you come down on.
It's not that more people need to be convinced to stop Israel's genocide of Palestinians, it's that the people in the West that ostensibly want to stop the genocide of Palestinians have to actually do more.
Maybe we can't muster the courage to do things like physically impede the ability of weapon manufacturers to send weapons to Israel, but we can at least emphatically support the people that do for example.
There's a thing about numbers that you are missing here.
The more numbers you have, the more of those people will be outliers, and the more people you will get who are willing to do more.
The problem isn't in willingness to take action, its mostly about ability to take action. How would you personally go about stopping weapons getting shipped to Israel? What's the method here?
Are we talking about robbing trucks? Setting bombs off? At what point will people be doing enough for you - given that if the government wants to sell weapons to Israel, it is going to sell weapons to Israel?
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On April 11 2025 02:17 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2025 02:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
Perhaps if/when you've done that your position will be better informed. If you're reading this i'm sticking my middle finger up at you for this. Show nested quote +
Is it better to have example 13124255262624 of the "Israel murders people, lies about it, gets exposed, the US protects them from international law, then sends another shipment of weapons for Israel to do it again" cycle than not to have it? Probably? My point is that it doesn't seem to be doing any good (which you haven't refuted).
One mistake is believing that change is driven by the number of supporters rather than what a minimum number of supporters are willing to do to achieve their goals.
Is it better to shut up and not say anything when Israel gets caught in lies? That's certainly what my government thinks, and what the Israeli government thinks. Its not what I think, and I'm surprised which side you come down on. Show nested quote +
It's not that more people need to be convinced to stop Israel's genocide of Palestinians, it's that the people in the West that ostensibly want to stop the genocide of Palestinians have to actually do more.
Maybe we can't muster the courage to do things like physically impede the ability of weapon manufacturers to send weapons to Israel, but we can at least emphatically support the people that do for example.
There's a thing about numbers that you are missing here. The more numbers you have, the more of those people will be outliers, and the more people you will get who are willing to do more. The problem isn't in willingness to take action, its mostly about ability to take action. How would you personally go about stopping weapons getting shipped to Israel? What's the method here? Are we talking about robbing trucks? Setting bombs off? At what point will people be doing enough for you - given that if the government wants to sell weapons to Israel, it is going to sell weapons to Israel?
Good, be angry! Now remember how much worse what our governments are doing is than me hurting your feelings and direct that anger appropriately.
Obviously I'm not advocating shutting up, I'll take the compliment on my restraint though 
I mentioned the example of Democrats opposing arming Israel 62%-14% but being unable to actually do that despite it being 100% under their control because the idea that they are helpless is part of how they are able to continue to get away with it.
The problem is absolutely without a doubt an unwillingness by people that ostensibly oppose genocide to do what it takes to stop it. If you want to convince people of something, convince the people that already agree with you to do something, don't worry about convincing people to realize genocide is bad and they should oppose it.
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On April 11 2025 02:33 GreenHorizons wrote:I mentioned the example of Democrats opposing arming Israel 62%-14% but being unable to actually do that despite it being 100% under their control because the idea that they are helpless is part of how they are able to continue to get away with it.
But the question of what do you plan to do about it remains.
Say you can convince enough people to never vote Democrat over Israeli policy - the practical result will be more Republicans in power, who will be even more permissive to Israel.
By the time you could see serious changes in the Democratic party there might be no more Palestinians.
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On April 11 2025 15:50 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2025 02:33 GreenHorizons wrote:I mentioned the example of Democrats opposing arming Israel 62%-14% but being unable to actually do that despite it being 100% under their control because the idea that they are helpless is part of how they are able to continue to get away with it. But the question of what do you plan to do about it remains. Say you can convince enough people to never vote Democrat over Israeli policy - the practical result will be more Republicans in power, who will be even more permissive to Israel. By the time you could see serious changes in the Democratic party there might be no more Palestinians.
This is an interesting question, and I had been watching this "social experiment" unfolding. The result will no doubt provide good knowledge to operate in the civic society or political space.
What you had described can be summarised by the statement "the other guy is worse, so you have to vote for me". "The other guy is worse" seems to be true for the moment, as least for the palestine issue.
However, on the flip side, since "the other guy" is worse, and the people have to vote Dem anyways, there is no reason for the Dem to do anything. Don't forget the genocide is fully supported by the Biden administration. Not voting for Dem is the most powerful (may be only) way to let the politician in Dem know that it is not enough that the other guy is worse, but the Dem have to have certain standard in order to earn the vote. If the vote keep coming in, despite what the public discourse is, would those politician care?
The obvious question would be whether the Dem politician or the public would "cave" first. i.e. Will the situation become too bad that the public will accept the Dem no matter what, or the Dem politician will start "doing better" for the voting base.
Specific for the palestine question, is there any possibility the genocide is going to stop during a theoretical Biden administration second term?
The study of the dynamic is very interesting, It is unfortunate that we have to live through this shit show as human being no matter what happens.
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EPT
