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On May 08 2025 20:47 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 15:27 Acrofales wrote:Ontopic, we were discussing European countries' actions and I was pleasantly surprised by the news this morning: The Dutch government, seen as one of Israel’s most loyal allies in the European Union, is calling for an urgent review of the EU Israel association agreement, the basis for the EU-Israeli free trade agreement, the Dutch foreign minister Caspar Veldkamp told the Guardian.
Veldkamp described the Israeli ban on the supply of aid into Gaza as “catastrophic, truly dismal” and in clear breach of international humanitarian law.
He has written to the head of the European Union foreign service Kaja Kallas requesting an urgent review, saying he believes Israel is now in breach of the association agreement. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/07/netherlands-urges-review-of-eu-israel-trade-deal-over-catastrophic-gaza-aid-blockThat this is coming from the Dutch government, of all people, means there may be a real shift in the EU's overall stance. Either that, or the Dutch government is going through the umpteenth coalition crisis when Wilders finds out and gets upset? In a similar vein, I really think UEFA should reconsider letting Israel compete in European competitions, Eurovision the same.
Fully agree, especially Eurovision makes no sense. They banned Russia for invading Ukraine and then two years later when the question of banning Israel comes they're like "We don't make political decisions", please. On top of that the integrity of the competition is in question (granted it also is in question for a lot of other reasons) as there are a bunch of people who vote for the Israeli song clearly as a sign of political support.
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On May 08 2025 02:49 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2025 23:52 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 23:06 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 21:06 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 10:22 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 10:10 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2025 10:07 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2025 09:59 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 09:35 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Can you think of a difference between hating Jews and hating people who support a specific government and specific policies and happen to be majority Jewish? I've noticed that you're not a fan of Russia, should I conclude that you hate white people or the orthodox church? I do openly hate the leadership of the Russian orthodox church, they remind me of the evil popes supporting the crusades. But I don't have hatred of Russian people in general, which is another unpopular opinion with a different group of people. I have a pretty strong dislike for most religious extremists and people who hate. So, based on this explanation, you have no problem differentiating between hating people for their identity and hating people for their political opinions? Excellent. The two are inextricably tied in Israel. Whereas in China and Russia they are not. These are not the owns you two think they are. So, just to be clear, according to you if someone has a jewish identity, they support Netanyahu? And I'm the one who is supposed to be antisemitic? Another swing and a miss! Also you used that word not me. There is a reason when I talk about Gaza I talk about Hamas not Gazans, it is really not a big ask to direct your hate at the minority of Israelis who enable this level of violence. It is even less writing to write IDF, but for some reason you must use Israel. For those of you wondering why no one but those in complete lock step respond in this thread is because any discussion is met with such hate. Imagine what would happen if a a pro Israel person was here, you're brutal to Israelis are not all evil people. Do we have to imagine? Thanks for proving my point. My point is this is not a hypothetical, we have had, and indeed still have such voices, and they’re broadly not attacked in that manner. You yourself are obviously pro-Israel, absolutely not a zealot but I thini that’s broadly a fair observation. Or perhaps a better example is the Ukraine/Russia thread. There’s plenty of civility and hostility there, but it’s based on expressed views not simply being Russian or not. Indeed the individual who garners the most hostile pushback is not Russian. There’s plenty of Russian users going about their day unmolested on here. Your hypothetical has already occurred, and it hasn’t played out the way you’re framing it. To reiterate, these things are commonplace elsewhere, and if I saw them here I’d challenge them. If Neb said ‘all Jews’, or whatever it is. Instead it’s you saying ‘well actually this is what Neb means’ when he said no such thing. So we enter a frustrating and pointless loop. Incidentally, it’s also a dangerous playbook to take out IMO. Which I have pointed out in the past. Plenty make the transition from anti-Israel/sympathetic to Palestine to being actually anti-Semitic, if this play is used too liberally. A real self-fulfilling prophecy there. Not, I don’t think a danger for Liquidians here or anything, but it does absolutely happen, it’s a method of argumentation I’d absolutely avoid like the plague. To you and many on the thread not hating Israel and thinking it is the most evil country in the world is being pro Israel. And that is a strange position. Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 00:02 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 23:09 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 22:04 Nebuchad wrote:Watch out guys, Jimmi thinks that every Chinese person is building colonies in Bhutan On November 14 2024 03:30 Billyboy wrote:
As long as Bibi stays in power and needs the even further right to bolster his support, I agree. They are not quite the government subsidized colonies like China is building in Bhutan, but similar idea. Maybe you are so sensitive because the only difference between your position and an anti-Semites position is the word Israel or Jew. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/05/asia/china-bhutan-border-dst-intl-hnk/index.htmlThere is obviously nuance you actively avoid thinking about. When you get into the conspiracy crap about Israel always planning genocide. Compared to say Israel dropping a bomb. Because words have meaning. One denotes a state, the other an ethnic group, not all of whom reside in or even agree with said state. Neither is the position even the same anyway. ‘Israel should stop doing shitty things’ may absolutely be shared by the anti-Semite, but they add a whole shitload of other stuff on top that Neb hasn’t expressed. This thing you’re doing isn’t nuance, it’s not adding depth or complexity to the conversation, it’s nitpicking. Often erroneous nitpicking that then necessitates re-litigating initial points over and over in different ways. What are the differences between any number of peoples positions on Israel in this thread and anti-Semites? I of course know words mean things, this is why I insert the word Jew so it is not as easy and makes people uncomfortable to say awful things. If people were talking about how the Palestinians were rapists and murderers would that upset you more than if they said it of Hamas? Is it that hard to change the words people use? As a leftist don't you do it regularly for basically every other group?
I don't think the difference is that hard to spot.
Most leftists in this thread are vehemently anti-racist, and fully aware of unconscious bias and how it works.
I can't speak for everyone, but I've spent more than a few hours thinking about whether my contempt for Israel is blurring the line between criticism and antisemitism, and ensuring that I don't get dragged over that line.
When you do things like 'insert the word Jew' to try and catch people out saying something so you can call them antisemitic, it isn't helpful in the slightest, its just further muddying the waters and making things more difficult for no reason other than to have this conversation AGAIN, instead of whatever we were discussing previously. The question has to be asked what motivation there could be for doing that, given that you don't consider yourself pro-Israel.
Maybe a useful thing to do here would be to point out if you see an argument being used that you feel is antisemitic, is to say 'that is antisemitic' instead of 'you are antisemitic and you hate jews'.
That's how I tend to interact with people on the right. You don't have to be a racist to use a racist argument, you simply might not have looked at it that way.
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To chime in on "kind genocide" discussion, I think the part where it's fucked up to say this is that this is what a proposed solution is instead of, I don't know, putting MDMA in the water supply in Israel and showing them footage of what IDF is doing in Gaza in order to get Israel's citizenship to understand the abhorrent evil they are perpetrating on a population that neither choose to be in that situation (most of Gazan's weren't even alive when Hamas was narrowly voted in) nor do they have a way to get out of it.
This kind of extremely unemphatic thinking is why I have a very hard time squaring people who I broadly agree on regarding Russia's invasion of Ukraine and who employ this kind of fucked up thinking when it comes to what Israel is doing in Gaza, West bank and Syria.
Obviously, this goes the other way around as well, GH seems to have a lot of very practical and pragmatic (from his fucked up POV) thinking when it comes to that conflict but doesn't seem to be here advocating for Hamas to throw down their arms and Gazans to agree to everything that Israel wants unilaterally.
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United States42249 Posts
Again, not a proposed solution, figure of speech.
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Northern Ireland24379 Posts
On May 08 2025 21:33 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 02:49 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 23:52 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 23:06 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 21:06 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 10:22 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 10:10 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2025 10:07 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2025 09:59 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
I do openly hate the leadership of the Russian orthodox church, they remind me of the evil popes supporting the crusades. But I don't have hatred of Russian people in general, which is another unpopular opinion with a different group of people.
I have a pretty strong dislike for most religious extremists and people who hate.
So, based on this explanation, you have no problem differentiating between hating people for their identity and hating people for their political opinions? Excellent. The two are inextricably tied in Israel. Whereas in China and Russia they are not. These are not the owns you two think they are. So, just to be clear, according to you if someone has a jewish identity, they support Netanyahu? And I'm the one who is supposed to be antisemitic? Another swing and a miss! Also you used that word not me. There is a reason when I talk about Gaza I talk about Hamas not Gazans, it is really not a big ask to direct your hate at the minority of Israelis who enable this level of violence. It is even less writing to write IDF, but for some reason you must use Israel. For those of you wondering why no one but those in complete lock step respond in this thread is because any discussion is met with such hate. Imagine what would happen if a a pro Israel person was here, you're brutal to Israelis are not all evil people. Do we have to imagine? Thanks for proving my point. My point is this is not a hypothetical, we have had, and indeed still have such voices, and they’re broadly not attacked in that manner. You yourself are obviously pro-Israel, absolutely not a zealot but I thini that’s broadly a fair observation. Or perhaps a better example is the Ukraine/Russia thread. There’s plenty of civility and hostility there, but it’s based on expressed views not simply being Russian or not. Indeed the individual who garners the most hostile pushback is not Russian. There’s plenty of Russian users going about their day unmolested on here. Your hypothetical has already occurred, and it hasn’t played out the way you’re framing it. To reiterate, these things are commonplace elsewhere, and if I saw them here I’d challenge them. If Neb said ‘all Jews’, or whatever it is. Instead it’s you saying ‘well actually this is what Neb means’ when he said no such thing. So we enter a frustrating and pointless loop. Incidentally, it’s also a dangerous playbook to take out IMO. Which I have pointed out in the past. Plenty make the transition from anti-Israel/sympathetic to Palestine to being actually anti-Semitic, if this play is used too liberally. A real self-fulfilling prophecy there. Not, I don’t think a danger for Liquidians here or anything, but it does absolutely happen, it’s a method of argumentation I’d absolutely avoid like the plague. To you and many on the thread not hating Israel and thinking it is the most evil country in the world is being pro Israel. And that is a strange position. On May 08 2025 00:02 WombaT wrote:On May 07 2025 23:09 Billyboy wrote:On May 07 2025 22:04 Nebuchad wrote:Watch out guys, Jimmi thinks that every Chinese person is building colonies in Bhutan On November 14 2024 03:30 Billyboy wrote:
As long as Bibi stays in power and needs the even further right to bolster his support, I agree. They are not quite the government subsidized colonies like China is building in Bhutan, but similar idea. Maybe you are so sensitive because the only difference between your position and an anti-Semites position is the word Israel or Jew. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/05/asia/china-bhutan-border-dst-intl-hnk/index.htmlThere is obviously nuance you actively avoid thinking about. When you get into the conspiracy crap about Israel always planning genocide. Compared to say Israel dropping a bomb. Because words have meaning. One denotes a state, the other an ethnic group, not all of whom reside in or even agree with said state. Neither is the position even the same anyway. ‘Israel should stop doing shitty things’ may absolutely be shared by the anti-Semite, but they add a whole shitload of other stuff on top that Neb hasn’t expressed. This thing you’re doing isn’t nuance, it’s not adding depth or complexity to the conversation, it’s nitpicking. Often erroneous nitpicking that then necessitates re-litigating initial points over and over in different ways. What are the differences between any number of peoples positions on Israel in this thread and anti-Semites? I of course know words mean things, this is why I insert the word Jew so it is not as easy and makes people uncomfortable to say awful things. If people were talking about how the Palestinians were rapists and murderers would that upset you more than if they said it of Hamas? Is it that hard to change the words people use? As a leftist don't you do it regularly for basically every other group? I don't think the difference is that hard to spot. Most leftists in this thread are vehemently anti-racist, and fully aware of unconscious bias and how it works. I can't speak for everyone, but I've spent more than a few hours thinking about whether my contempt for Israel is blurring the line between criticism and antisemitism, and ensuring that I don't get dragged over that line.When you do things like 'insert the word Jew' to try and catch people out saying something so you can call them antisemitic, it isn't helpful in the slightest, its just further muddying the waters and making things more difficult for no reason other than to have this conversation AGAIN, instead of whatever we were discussing previously. The question has to be asked what motivation there could be for doing that, given that you don't consider yourself pro-Israel. [b]Maybe a useful thing to do here would be to point out if you see an argument being used that you feel is antisemitic, is to say 'that is antisemitic' instead of 'you are antisemitic and you hate jews'. That's how I tend to interact with people on the right. You don't have to be a racist to use a racist argument, you simply might not have looked at it that way.[\b]
Same. It’s not always easy, I find myself having to actively work on it in a way I don’t elsewhere. Something I’ve spent time pondering why actually.
I really do think it’s basically as simple as the (IMO) extremely liberal use of the charge of anti-Semitism. It can only naturally start to erode the walls of compartmentalisation someone puts up between Israel and the Jewish people more widely, if they keep getting rebuked and told that wall isn’t relevant, for some it will start to crumble.
It’s specifically why I warn against it, because I think one sees openings for the exact opposite of the desired effect.
Yeah agreed, this doesn’t preclude calling out obvious bigotry, or more gently pointing out something that might be unintentional.
I see some parallels between this and ‘you can’t have concerns about immigration without being called a racist’. For certain people, this breeds a resentment that may manifest in that bigotry appearing where it didn’t exist before, or alternatively just harden it if it already exists.
Doesn’t preclude challenging it, but yeah I’d approach it similarly in both examples.
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United States42249 Posts
I was the one who brought it up a few pages ago and it was in response to an assertion that the Zionists have a long term secret plan for domination and even when Israel openly does something that is the opposite of that plan it is all part of the secret plan.
That kind of thing should raise eyebrows everywhere.
It's not that you're not allowed to critique Israel, it's that you shouldn't use specifically anti Jewish tropes to do so and you should question those when you hear them.
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On May 08 2025 23:09 KwarK wrote:
I was the one who brought it up a few pages ago and it was in response to an assertion that the Zionists have a long term secret plan for domination and even when Israel openly does something that is the opposite of that plan it is all part of the secret plan.
That kind of thing should raise eyebrows everywhere.
It's not that you're not allowed to critique Israel, it's that you shouldn't use specifically anti Jewish tropes to do so and you should question those when you hear them.
In the real world, I explained why your objection didn't work, you then pretended that I agreed with your objection (because you're silly) and then continued this imaginary conversation. It was sad to watch.
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I just find it hypocritical that you can go around making figures of speech like that and will keep insisting that's not problematic and then go ahead and call people who have issues with Israel's conduct anti-semitic.
The issue with calling people anti-semites for using "anti Jewish tropes" is that having "secret plans" being added to these is so vague that the accusation loses all meaning.
Israel has both secret and public plans, both are disturbing and obviously include taking territory from other countries and peoples and driving people out with extreme violence, that's a statement of facts, not an anti-semitic trope.
Russia also has and had secret and not so secret plans, those include taking territory and driving people from it in order to expand their "empire", stating that doesn't make people russophobobes.
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Northern Ireland24379 Posts
Right, I think it’s a reasonable distinction to make.
Conditions have shifted and the hardliners are now in the ascendancy so can do things they’d wanted to do but had blocks in doing so, versus some insidious master plan of misdirection and subterfuge.
I mean yeah I recognise that trope, although in this case I think it’s more a question of accuracy than the invocation of tropes I’d feel correction is desirable.
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On May 08 2025 22:12 Jankisa wrote:
To chime in on "kind genocide" discussion, I think the part where it's fucked up to say this is that this is what a proposed solution is instead of, I don't know, putting MDMA in the water supply in Israel and showing them footage of what IDF is doing in Gaza in order to get Israel's citizenship to understand the abhorrent evil they are perpetrating on a population that neither choose to be in that situation (most of Gazan's weren't even alive when Hamas was narrowly voted in) nor do they have a way to get out of it.
This kind of extremely unemphatic thinking is why I have a very hard time squaring people who I broadly agree on regarding Russia's invasion of Ukraine and who employ this kind of fucked up thinking when it comes to what Israel is doing in Gaza, West bank and Syria.
Obviously, this goes the other way around as well, GH seems to have a lot of very practical and pragmatic (from his fucked up POV) thinking when it comes to that conflict but doesn't seem to be here advocating for Hamas to throw down their arms and Gazans to agree to everything that Israel wants unilaterally.
That was part of my point when I said this:
I think it really bothers people to see what it's like for someone to agree with them and even support their goals, but also that isn't as emotionally invested in it as they are.
What you noticed about Kwark's phrasing is part of what I was talking about.
Israel has never offered a "deal" that allowed Palestinians self-determination and autonomy. No one would expect Ukrainians to sign a deal that didn't provide for their self-determination and autonomy.
Nevermind about the role the UK played in how Palestinians ended up with a new apartheid ethnostate being declared on top of their homes in the first place.
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On May 08 2025 20:54 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2025 20:47 WombaT wrote:On May 08 2025 15:27 Acrofales wrote:Ontopic, we were discussing European countries' actions and I was pleasantly surprised by the news this morning: The Dutch government, seen as one of Israel’s most loyal allies in the European Union, is calling for an urgent review of the EU Israel association agreement, the basis for the EU-Israeli free trade agreement, the Dutch foreign minister Caspar Veldkamp told the Guardian.
Veldkamp described the Israeli ban on the supply of aid into Gaza as “catastrophic, truly dismal” and in clear breach of international humanitarian law.
He has written to the head of the European Union foreign service Kaja Kallas requesting an urgent review, saying he believes Israel is now in breach of the association agreement. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/07/netherlands-urges-review-of-eu-israel-trade-deal-over-catastrophic-gaza-aid-blockThat this is coming from the Dutch government, of all people, means there may be a real shift in the EU's overall stance. Either that, or the Dutch government is going through the umpteenth coalition crisis when Wilders finds out and gets upset? In a similar vein, I really think UEFA should reconsider letting Israel compete in European competitions, Eurovision the same. Fully agree, especially Eurovision makes no sense. They banned Russia for invading Ukraine and then two years later when the question of banning Israel comes they're like "We don't make political decisions", please. On top of that the integrity of the competition is in question (granted it also is in question for a lot of other reasons) as there are a bunch of people who vote for the Israeli song clearly as a sign of political support.
No, they're right. Banning Russia wasn't a political decision, it was a business decision. A bunch of countries threatened that they won't participate in various events if Russia is there and that's why organizations banned them.
That did not happen for Israel, it was left up to the organizers and they obviously chose to pull the apolitical card, just like they would have done for Russia if they didn't have to weigh losing them vs losing several other countries.
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