|
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On May 23 2024 07:47 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2024 07:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 23 2024 06:23 Gorsameth wrote:On May 23 2024 06:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 22 2024 20:18 Magic Powers wrote:
The problem for Biden is that, if Netanyahu is considered guilty of war crimes, then the US will face increased pressure to cut military ties with Israel until someone working towards peace replaces Netanyahu. That's why Biden opposes the ICC. It's not necessarily because he personally believes Netanyahu is innocent, it's much more because of how his guilt would affect US-Israel relations in the short term. It'd affect Biden's image negatively if his name was associated with a brutal, unjust war. More than that it's probable Biden and his administration would be guilty as well for aiding and abetting those war crimes along with him doing so being in violation of US law. Even if Biden is obviously and objectively guilty (a threshold crossed already for many), who can/would hold him/the US accountable for those crimes? The answer should be voters, but thanks to the nature of the US electoral system and the fact that the other option is somehow even worse. No one. That's not accountability, that's an "early" retirement with benefits. The answer (besides revolutionaries in the US) is Europe, but that would take a spine that seems to be sorely lacking over there (and here among ostensibly progressive people). If the "international rules based order" was anything more than a euphemism for US led authoritarian hegemony, it would be obvious that the US/Biden and Israel need to be under international sanctions for their roles in the ongoing illegal occupation of Palestine and the accompanying ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign of Palestinians by Israel. Europe has very little means to hold the US accountable. Any sanctions upon the US would most likely hit the EU harder then the US.
While I disagree with that sort of learned helplessness on its face, were it true, it would be an admission that the "international rules based order" and the justifications/rationalizations spawning from it are a sham while also identifying Europe as a loose conglomerate of glorified/snooty vassals for a US dominated authoritarian capitalist hegemony.
A reasonable assessment I'd argue, but preamble to an all but certain global catastrophe nonetheless.
|
On May 23 2024 07:47 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2024 07:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 23 2024 06:23 Gorsameth wrote:On May 23 2024 06:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 22 2024 20:18 Magic Powers wrote:
The problem for Biden is that, if Netanyahu is considered guilty of war crimes, then the US will face increased pressure to cut military ties with Israel until someone working towards peace replaces Netanyahu. That's why Biden opposes the ICC. It's not necessarily because he personally believes Netanyahu is innocent, it's much more because of how his guilt would affect US-Israel relations in the short term. It'd affect Biden's image negatively if his name was associated with a brutal, unjust war. More than that it's probable Biden and his administration would be guilty as well for aiding and abetting those war crimes along with him doing so being in violation of US law. Even if Biden is obviously and objectively guilty (a threshold crossed already for many), who can/would hold him/the US accountable for those crimes? The answer should be voters, but thanks to the nature of the US electoral system and the fact that the other option is somehow even worse. No one. That's not accountability, that's an "early" retirement with benefits. The answer (besides revolutionaries in the US) is Europe, but that would take a spine that seems to be sorely lacking over there (and here among ostensibly progressive people). If the "international rules based order" was anything more than a euphemism for US led authoritarian hegemony, it would be obvious that the US/Biden and Israel need to be under international sanctions for their roles in the ongoing illegal occupation of Palestine and the accompanying ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign of Palestinians by Israel. Europe has very little means to hold the US accountable. Any sanctions upon the US would most likely hit the EU harder then the US.
US still needs Europe to fight China so pressure potential is definitely there.
It's just that Palestinians are nowhere important enough to risk western unity.
Take note how the European countries recognizing Palestine are not the decision makers within the EU.
And in the meantime another interesting political development:
US is warming up to full-on Rafah invasion.
'updated plan' is fancy way of saying that enough people have fled to reduce expected casualties.
Also US saw that nobody else cares overly much about it.
|
On May 23 2024 07:47 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2024 07:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 23 2024 06:23 Gorsameth wrote:On May 23 2024 06:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 22 2024 20:18 Magic Powers wrote:
The problem for Biden is that, if Netanyahu is considered guilty of war crimes, then the US will face increased pressure to cut military ties with Israel until someone working towards peace replaces Netanyahu. That's why Biden opposes the ICC. It's not necessarily because he personally believes Netanyahu is innocent, it's much more because of how his guilt would affect US-Israel relations in the short term. It'd affect Biden's image negatively if his name was associated with a brutal, unjust war. More than that it's probable Biden and his administration would be guilty as well for aiding and abetting those war crimes along with him doing so being in violation of US law. Even if Biden is obviously and objectively guilty (a threshold crossed already for many), who can/would hold him/the US accountable for those crimes? The answer should be voters, but thanks to the nature of the US electoral system and the fact that the other option is somehow even worse. No one. That's not accountability, that's an "early" retirement with benefits. The answer (besides revolutionaries in the US) is Europe, but that would take a spine that seems to be sorely lacking over there (and here among ostensibly progressive people). If the "international rules based order" was anything more than a euphemism for US led authoritarian hegemony, it would be obvious that the US/Biden and Israel need to be under international sanctions for their roles in the ongoing illegal occupation of Palestine and the accompanying ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign of Palestinians by Israel. Europe has very little means to hold the US accountable. Any sanctions upon the US would most likely hit the EU harder then the US.
It’s not in the US’s best interests to get involved in disputes of any kind with Europe; the power of the US to maintain their hegemony rests to a large extent on the belief that they are not worth sacrificing things to fight against (unlike say, Russia). The US has put in a lot of effort to make sure its hegemony comes off as beneficial to as many people as possible, and democratically led developed countries whose populations reap these benefits don’t want to lose them. However, the more US is seen to act against the “global will of the people”, the more reason people/countries will have to say fuck it to their quality-of-life benefits from free trade and get adversarial from an economic perspective. Which then tanks the dollar, which is the real way US maintains global cultural power. Then all that will be left is its military, but simply applying that to maintain power without cultural/economic support will cause it to very much come across globally as the bad guy.
Global public opinion matters a lot, because US military can’t do shit about it. Hence why Biden is tip-toeing around this issue.
|
On May 23 2024 11:28 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2024 07:47 Gorsameth wrote:On May 23 2024 07:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 23 2024 06:23 Gorsameth wrote:On May 23 2024 06:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 22 2024 20:18 Magic Powers wrote:
The problem for Biden is that, if Netanyahu is considered guilty of war crimes, then the US will face increased pressure to cut military ties with Israel until someone working towards peace replaces Netanyahu. That's why Biden opposes the ICC. It's not necessarily because he personally believes Netanyahu is innocent, it's much more because of how his guilt would affect US-Israel relations in the short term. It'd affect Biden's image negatively if his name was associated with a brutal, unjust war. More than that it's probable Biden and his administration would be guilty as well for aiding and abetting those war crimes along with him doing so being in violation of US law. Even if Biden is obviously and objectively guilty (a threshold crossed already for many), who can/would hold him/the US accountable for those crimes? The answer should be voters, but thanks to the nature of the US electoral system and the fact that the other option is somehow even worse. No one. That's not accountability, that's an "early" retirement with benefits. The answer (besides revolutionaries in the US) is Europe, but that would take a spine that seems to be sorely lacking over there (and here among ostensibly progressive people). If the "international rules based order" was anything more than a euphemism for US led authoritarian hegemony, it would be obvious that the US/Biden and Israel need to be under international sanctions for their roles in the ongoing illegal occupation of Palestine and the accompanying ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign of Palestinians by Israel. Europe has very little means to hold the US accountable. Any sanctions upon the US would most likely hit the EU harder then the US. While I disagree with that sort of learned helplessness on its face, were it true, it would be an admission that the "international rules based order" and the justifications/rationalizations spawning from it are a sham while also identifying Europe as a loose conglomerate of glorified/snooty vassals for a US dominated authoritarian capitalist hegemony. A reasonable assessment I'd argue, but preamble to an all but certain global catastrophe nonetheless.
I think the situation could instead be framed as "European nations are willing to ignore moral failings of other nations for the sake of economic benefit". They ignore a lot of things China does. They ignore a lot of things Russia does. They will speak out against Russia or China and accuse them of this or that but ultimately prioritize economic stability over morals.
But it also doesn't really stop at Europe. Consider all the things China says about the US and then look at the extent to which China continues to do business with the US for the sake of economic benefit. Or many other nations. This dynamic as a whole just isn't really unique to any nation. It is widely agreed upon that economic benefit is the top priority in basically every situation. All throughout history, its pretty much entirely uniformly true that it takes an extremely bad situation with a lot of public pressure before a county will knowingly harm themselves for the sake of adhering to their stated moral structure.
|
On May 24 2024 06:27 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2024 11:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 23 2024 07:47 Gorsameth wrote:On May 23 2024 07:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 23 2024 06:23 Gorsameth wrote:On May 23 2024 06:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 22 2024 20:18 Magic Powers wrote:
The problem for Biden is that, if Netanyahu is considered guilty of war crimes, then the US will face increased pressure to cut military ties with Israel until someone working towards peace replaces Netanyahu. That's why Biden opposes the ICC. It's not necessarily because he personally believes Netanyahu is innocent, it's much more because of how his guilt would affect US-Israel relations in the short term. It'd affect Biden's image negatively if his name was associated with a brutal, unjust war. More than that it's probable Biden and his administration would be guilty as well for aiding and abetting those war crimes along with him doing so being in violation of US law. Even if Biden is obviously and objectively guilty (a threshold crossed already for many), who can/would hold him/the US accountable for those crimes? The answer should be voters, but thanks to the nature of the US electoral system and the fact that the other option is somehow even worse. No one. That's not accountability, that's an "early" retirement with benefits. The answer (besides revolutionaries in the US) is Europe, but that would take a spine that seems to be sorely lacking over there (and here among ostensibly progressive people). If the "international rules based order" was anything more than a euphemism for US led authoritarian hegemony, it would be obvious that the US/Biden and Israel need to be under international sanctions for their roles in the ongoing illegal occupation of Palestine and the accompanying ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign of Palestinians by Israel. Europe has very little means to hold the US accountable. Any sanctions upon the US would most likely hit the EU harder then the US. While I disagree with that sort of learned helplessness on its face, were it true, it would be an admission that the "international rules based order" and the justifications/rationalizations spawning from it are a sham while also identifying Europe as a loose conglomerate of glorified/snooty vassals for a US dominated authoritarian capitalist hegemony. A reasonable assessment I'd argue, but preamble to an all but certain global catastrophe nonetheless. I think the situation could instead be framed as "European nations are willing to ignore moral failings of other nations for the sake of economic benefit". They ignore a lot of things China does. They ignore a lot of things Russia does. They will speak out against Russia or China and accuse them of this or that but ultimately prioritize economic stability over morals. But it also doesn't really stop at Europe. Consider all the things China says about the US and then look at the extent to which China continues to do business with the US for the sake of economic benefit. Or many other nations. This dynamic as a whole just isn't really unique to any nation. It is widely agreed upon that economic benefit is the top priority in basically every situation. All throughout history, its pretty much entirely uniformly true that it takes an extremely bad situation with a lot of public pressure before a county will knowingly harm themselves for the sake of adhering to their stated moral structure.
While what the US and Israel are doing is morally reprehensible, I was talking about laws, as well as the clear disregard for them and the humanity they are ostensibly made to protect. It basically strips the West and the "international rules based order" of any credibility regarding Russia-Ukraine or pretty much anything else. It also reaffirms Neb's sardonic satire about the West not considering Palestinians humans.
That said, while the US certainly deserves to be sanctioned (the embargo on Cuba isn't really better/more ethical than Israel's blockade of Gaza for example), they could easily start with Israel with abundant justification and minimal impact to their own economies.
|
|
|
The UN's top court has ordered Israel to "Immediately halt its military offensive in Rafah".
The UN's top court, the International Court of Justice (ICJ), has issued a dramatic ruling, ordering Israel to "immediately halt its military offensive in Rafah"....
The ruling also reiterated a requirement for Israel to enable "unhindered provision at scale" of basic services and humanitarian aid for Gaza.
"The humanitarian situation [in Gaza] is now to be characterised as disastrous," the ruling said....
...the Palestinian ambassador to the UN, Riyad Mansour, hailed the ruling and called for Israel to abide by it.
"We expect that resolutions of the ICJ be implemented without hesitation," he said. "That's mandatory. And Israel is party to the convention."
Following news of the ICJ ruling, the European Union's top diplomat, Josep Borrell, said the bloc's commitment to the rule of law and its support for Israel "are going to be quite difficult to make compatible".
www.bbc.com
Smart money would probably be on the EU choosing to continue supporting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign over "the rule of law".
The US is yet to respond to the ICJ ruling other than Sen. Lindsey Graham:
"As far as I’m concerned, the ICJ can go to hell. It is long past time to stand up to these so-called international justice organizations associated with the UN...."
But there has been a bipartisan push to apply sanctions to Israel for their crimes against humanity the ICC for even thinking they can hold the US or Israel accountable for their crimes.
Lawmakers in both parties are racing against the clock to secure a bipartisan bill to sanction International Criminal Court (ICC) officials after they filed requests for arrest warrants for top Israeli leaders, hoping a forceful bipartisan response from Washington will deter the court’s judges from ratifying the charges in the coming weeks.
thehill.com
|
On May 25 2024 23:21 GreenHorizons wrote:The UN's top court has ordered Israel to "Immediately halt its military offensive in Rafah". Show nested quote +The UN's top court, the International Court of Justice (ICJ), has issued a dramatic ruling, ordering Israel to "immediately halt its military offensive in Rafah"....
The ruling also reiterated a requirement for Israel to enable "unhindered provision at scale" of basic services and humanitarian aid for Gaza.
"The humanitarian situation [in Gaza] is now to be characterised as disastrous," the ruling said....
...the Palestinian ambassador to the UN, Riyad Mansour, hailed the ruling and called for Israel to abide by it.
"We expect that resolutions of the ICJ be implemented without hesitation," he said. "That's mandatory. And Israel is party to the convention."
Following news of the ICJ ruling, the European Union's top diplomat, Josep Borrell, said the bloc's commitment to the rule of law and its support for Israel "are going to be quite difficult to make compatible".
www.bbc.comSmart money would probably be on the EU choosing to continue supporting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign over "the rule of law". The US is yet to respond to the ICJ ruling other than Sen. Lindsey Graham: Show nested quote +"As far as I’m concerned, the ICJ can go to hell. It is long past time to stand up to these so-called international justice organizations associated with the UN...." But there has been a bipartisan push to apply sanctions to Israel for their crimes against humanity the ICC for even thinking they can hold the US or Israel accountable for their crimes. Show nested quote +Lawmakers in both parties are racing against the clock to secure a bipartisan bill to sanction International Criminal Court (ICC) officials after they filed requests for arrest warrants for top Israeli leaders, hoping a forceful bipartisan response from Washington will deter the court’s judges from ratifying the charges in the coming weeks. thehill.com
I'll wait until more information comes out before I give my two cents. The situation seems to be unfolding quite rapidly. Definitely a very interesting development.
|
Recognition of a Palestinian state by Spain, Norway and Ireland is underway.
Britain, Australia, Malta and Slovenia are also considering it.
Netanyahu responds with anger, saying the move rewards Hamas' violence.
"The three countries recognised a Palestinian state with its borders to be demarcated as they were prior to 1967, with Jerusalem as the capital of both Israel and Palestine.
However, they also recognised that those borders may change in any eventual talks to reach a final settlement."
"Other states have said they are considering following suit, including Britain, Australia, Malta and Slovenia."
"Israel reacted angrily and immediately withdrew its ambassadors from the three countries and summoned their representatives in Israel.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said such recognition effectively rewards Hamas, which governs Gaza, for its violence."
https://www.reuters.com/world/what-did-ireland-norway-spain-announce-palestinian-state-2024-05-23/
|
|
|
On May 28 2024 06:47 Magic Powers wrote:Recognition of a Palestinian state by Spain, Norway and Ireland is underway. Britain, Australia, Malta and Slovenia are also considering it. Netanyahu responds with anger, saying the move rewards Hamas' violence. "The three countries recognised a Palestinian state with its borders to be demarcated as they were prior to 1967, with Jerusalem as the capital of both Israel and Palestine. However, they also recognised that those borders may change in any eventual talks to reach a final settlement." "Other states have said they are considering following suit, including Britain, Australia, Malta and Slovenia." "Israel reacted angrily and immediately withdrew its ambassadors from the three countries and summoned their representatives in Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said such recognition effectively rewards Hamas, which governs Gaza, for its violence." https://www.reuters.com/world/what-did-ireland-norway-spain-announce-palestinian-state-2024-05-23/ Gotta love that he ignores its not a response to Oct 7th but to continues Israeli disregard for civilian lives.
Hamas had nothing to do with it, Netanyahu's disproportional response is 100% the reason for this.
|
|
|
On May 28 2024 06:47 Magic Powers wrote:Recognition of a Palestinian state by Spain, Norway and Ireland is underway. Britain, Australia, Malta and Slovenia are also considering it. Netanyahu responds with anger, saying the move rewards Hamas' violence. "The three countries recognised a Palestinian state with its borders to be demarcated as they were prior to 1967, with Jerusalem as the capital of both Israel and Palestine. However, they also recognised that those borders may change in any eventual talks to reach a final settlement." "Other states have said they are considering following suit, including Britain, Australia, Malta and Slovenia." "Israel reacted angrily and immediately withdrew its ambassadors from the three countries and summoned their representatives in Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said such recognition effectively rewards Hamas, which governs Gaza, for its violence." https://www.reuters.com/world/what-did-ireland-norway-spain-announce-palestinian-state-2024-05-23/
So what does this mean?
Turning a "revenge/ defense" war into an active aggressor against another country war?
|
On May 28 2024 17:42 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2024 06:47 Magic Powers wrote:Recognition of a Palestinian state by Spain, Norway and Ireland is underway. Britain, Australia, Malta and Slovenia are also considering it. Netanyahu responds with anger, saying the move rewards Hamas' violence. "The three countries recognised a Palestinian state with its borders to be demarcated as they were prior to 1967, with Jerusalem as the capital of both Israel and Palestine. However, they also recognised that those borders may change in any eventual talks to reach a final settlement." "Other states have said they are considering following suit, including Britain, Australia, Malta and Slovenia." "Israel reacted angrily and immediately withdrew its ambassadors from the three countries and summoned their representatives in Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said such recognition effectively rewards Hamas, which governs Gaza, for its violence." https://www.reuters.com/world/what-did-ireland-norway-spain-announce-palestinian-state-2024-05-23/ So what does this mean? Turning a "revenge/ defense" war into an active aggressor against another country war?
For the current war it means nothing. It's more about signalling what kind of next steps would be accepted. This is signalling that Israel annexing Gaza again would not be acceptable. Nor is continued expansion of settlements in the West Bank.
|
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/28/israeli-spy-chief-icc-prosecutor-war-crimes-inquiry
The former head of the Mossad, Israel’s foreign intelligence agency, allegedly threatened a chief prosecutor of the international criminal court in a series of secret meetings in which he tried to pressure her into abandoning a war crimes investigation, the Guardian can reveal.
Yossi Cohen’s covert contacts with the ICC’s then prosecutor, Fatou Bensouda, took place in the years leading up to her decision to open a formal investigation into alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity in occupied Palestinian territories.
That investigation, launched in 2021, culminated last week when Bensouda’s successor, Karim Khan, announced that he was seeking an arrest warrant for the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, over the country’s conduct in its war in Gaza.
The prosecutor’s decision to apply to the ICC’s pre-trial chamber for arrest warrants for Netanyahu and his defence minister, Yoav Gallant, alongside three Hamas leaders, is an outcome Israel’s military and political establishment has long feared.
Cohen’s personal involvement in the operation against the ICC took place when he was the director of the Mossad. His activities were authorised at a high level and justified on the basis the court posed a threat of prosecutions against military personnel, according to a senior Israeli official.
Another Israeli source briefed on the operation against Bensouda said the Mossad’s objective was to compromise the prosecutor or enlist her as someone who would cooperate with Israel’s demands.
A third source familiar with the operation said Cohen was acting as Netanyahu’s “unofficial messenger”.
Cohen, who was one of Netanyahu’s closest allies at the time and is emerging as a political force in his own right in Israel, personally led the Mossad’s involvement in an almost decade-long campaign by the country to undermine the court.
Four sources confirmed that Bensouda had briefed a small group of senior ICC officials about Cohen’s attempts to sway her, amid concerns about the increasingly persistent and threatening nature of his behaviour.
This is quite a series of allegations.
I wonder why Israel would be using Mossad to undermine the ICC. Seems like you'd have to be pretty guilty to be undermining a court, huh?
|
On May 28 2024 06:47 Magic Powers wrote:Recognition of a Palestinian state by Spain, Norway and Ireland is underway. Britain, Australia, Malta and Slovenia are also considering it. Netanyahu responds with anger, saying the move rewards Hamas' violence. "The three countries recognised a Palestinian state with its borders to be demarcated as they were prior to 1967, with Jerusalem as the capital of both Israel and Palestine. However, they also recognised that those borders may change in any eventual talks to reach a final settlement." "Other states have said they are considering following suit, including Britain, Australia, Malta and Slovenia." "Israel reacted angrily and immediately withdrew its ambassadors from the three countries and summoned their representatives in Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said such recognition effectively rewards Hamas, which governs Gaza, for its violence." https://www.reuters.com/world/what-did-ireland-norway-spain-announce-palestinian-state-2024-05-23/
I like the idea of formally recognizing Palestinians as a state with undefined borders. I think that's the closest we could ever reasonably get to this moving forward in a diplomatic way.
No matter how you slice it, Palestinians are totally a state-like group of people. The borders are unclear, but they are absolutely a state-like group of people. Among all factions within the Palestinians, Hamas has the by far highest approval rating among Palestinians in both Gaza and West Bank.
The conversation needs to start something like this: "Ok, Palestinians are a state, though the borders are undefined. All polls in the last 6 months paint a clear picture of Hamas being extremely preferred by both Gaza and West Bank. So Hamas is the government of this Palestinian state."
And then take the conversation from there. It is dicey because Hamas is widely labeled a terrorist organization. But I think any other framing of a Palestinian state is nonsense.
|
On May 29 2024 03:46 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2024 06:47 Magic Powers wrote:Recognition of a Palestinian state by Spain, Norway and Ireland is underway. Britain, Australia, Malta and Slovenia are also considering it. Netanyahu responds with anger, saying the move rewards Hamas' violence. "The three countries recognised a Palestinian state with its borders to be demarcated as they were prior to 1967, with Jerusalem as the capital of both Israel and Palestine. However, they also recognised that those borders may change in any eventual talks to reach a final settlement." "Other states have said they are considering following suit, including Britain, Australia, Malta and Slovenia." "Israel reacted angrily and immediately withdrew its ambassadors from the three countries and summoned their representatives in Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said such recognition effectively rewards Hamas, which governs Gaza, for its violence." https://www.reuters.com/world/what-did-ireland-norway-spain-announce-palestinian-state-2024-05-23/ I like the idea of formally recognizing Palestinians as a state with undefined borders. I think that's the closest we could ever reasonably get to this moving forward in a diplomatic way. No matter how you slice it, Palestinians are totally a state-like group of people. The borders are unclear, but they are absolutely a state-like group of people. Among all factions within the Palestinians, Hamas has the by far highest approval rating among Palestinians in both Gaza and West Bank. The conversation needs to start something like this: "Ok, Palestinians are a state, though the borders are undefined. All polls in the last 6 months paint a clear picture of Hamas being extremely preferred by both Gaza and West Bank. So Hamas is the government of this Palestinian state." And then take the conversation from there. It is dicey because Hamas is widely labeled a terrorist organization. But I think any other framing of a Palestinian state is nonsense.
I think recognising Hamas as their government is a step (or 3) too far. Let's just recognise the state and that they have a right to self-organise their government. Preferably after banning terrorists from holding office.
|
On May 29 2024 03:50 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2024 03:46 Mohdoo wrote:On May 28 2024 06:47 Magic Powers wrote:Recognition of a Palestinian state by Spain, Norway and Ireland is underway. Britain, Australia, Malta and Slovenia are also considering it. Netanyahu responds with anger, saying the move rewards Hamas' violence. "The three countries recognised a Palestinian state with its borders to be demarcated as they were prior to 1967, with Jerusalem as the capital of both Israel and Palestine. However, they also recognised that those borders may change in any eventual talks to reach a final settlement." "Other states have said they are considering following suit, including Britain, Australia, Malta and Slovenia." "Israel reacted angrily and immediately withdrew its ambassadors from the three countries and summoned their representatives in Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said such recognition effectively rewards Hamas, which governs Gaza, for its violence." https://www.reuters.com/world/what-did-ireland-norway-spain-announce-palestinian-state-2024-05-23/ I like the idea of formally recognizing Palestinians as a state with undefined borders. I think that's the closest we could ever reasonably get to this moving forward in a diplomatic way. No matter how you slice it, Palestinians are totally a state-like group of people. The borders are unclear, but they are absolutely a state-like group of people. Among all factions within the Palestinians, Hamas has the by far highest approval rating among Palestinians in both Gaza and West Bank. The conversation needs to start something like this: "Ok, Palestinians are a state, though the borders are undefined. All polls in the last 6 months paint a clear picture of Hamas being extremely preferred by both Gaza and West Bank. So Hamas is the government of this Palestinian state." And then take the conversation from there. It is dicey because Hamas is widely labeled a terrorist organization. But I think any other framing of a Palestinian state is nonsense. I think recognising Hamas as their government is a step (or 3) too far. Let's just recognise the state and that they have a right to self-organise their government. Preferably after banning terrorists from holding office.
So let's say we force an election where the population isn't allowed to vote for their far and away preferred choice. How do you expect that to go? Will this puppet government work well? Will it be stable?
|
I would have thought 'we' (the West) would have learned by now that forcing Democracy on others very rarely works out...
|
Yeah that's part of why I think the bulk of conversations surrounding 2 state solution are both brain dead and bad faith.
Any 2 state solution has 2 options:
1: Hamas is the government
2: Hamas is kept out of Palestinian territory by some non-Israel collection of nations occupying the territory
Out of those 2 options, I think we can all agree there is no single nation, let alone group of nations, willing to shoulder the burden of [2]. There is no real option other than Hamas. I think its harmful to not only the situation as a whole, but Palestinians directly, for people to allow 2 state solution conversations to involve silly fan fiction about non-Hamas governments.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
