EPT(because they would be able to prosecute Americans for war crimes)
Their opinion on this matter is pointless to begin with.
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 278
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21711 Posts
(because they would be able to prosecute Americans for war crimes) Their opinion on this matter is pointless to begin with. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13974 Posts
On May 21 2024 23:30 Gorsameth wrote: Remember that the US doesn't recognise the ICC. (because they would be able to prosecute Americans for war crimes) Their opinion on this matter is pointless to begin with. In a world where might makes right, the stance of the US is never pointless | ||
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Excludos
Norway8091 Posts
On May 21 2024 23:37 Cricketer12 wrote: In a world where might makes right, the stance of the US is never pointless I think he meant the ICC is pointless, which it is | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21711 Posts
On May 21 2024 23:53 Excludos wrote: No, I meant that the opinion of a country that doesn't recognise the court in the first place is irrelevant.I think he meant the ICC is pointless, which it is | ||
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pmp10
3331 Posts
Especially since ICC already alienated the global south over Putin's arrest warrant. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4177 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12204 Posts
On May 21 2024 23:11 Magic Powers wrote: I don't know what Biden is saying there. The accusation is that Netanyahu committed war crimes, not genocide per se. The accusations are absolutely within reason and an arrest warrant makes perfect sense. If any regular citizen did what Netanyahu has done, they'd already have been arrested. Is Biden arguing that prime ministers should be above the law? Laws apply when you do things to humans and Palestinians aren't humans. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Byo
Canada207 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15690 Posts
It is similar to ICC issuing a warrant for someone in North Korea at the same time as someone from France. An ICC warrant existing for Sinwar is exclusively symbolic in the same way it would be for someone in North Korea. I think people are right to point out the ICC is only making an effort to address Israel and none to address Hamas. That being said, its not the fault of the ICC that they don't really have any sway with Gaza. The ICC not pursuing someone they can't pursue isn't a mark against the ICC. I think you could argue the ICC ought to advocate for prosecution for any crimes within whatever "jurisdiction" they have. In this case, it includes Israel and does not include Gaza. It paints an extremely distorted picture in terms of optics, but its not like the ICC is at fault for the situation. Ultimately, the whole thing is still just theatrics because the ICC will of course never actually arrest Netanyahu or any of Israel's leadership. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18008 Posts
On May 22 2024 04:59 Mohdoo wrote: Its all theatrical because Sinwar is never going to be walking around an ICC-affiliated country. This was originally going to focus on Netanyahu, then they bent to pressure and included Sinwar to appear less biased and whatnot. So now its both Netanyahu and Sinwar. It is similar to ICC issuing a warrant for someone in North Korea at the same time as someone from France. An ICC warrant existing for Sinwar is exclusively symbolic in the same way it would be for someone in North Korea. I think people are right to point out the ICC is only making an effort to address Israel and none to address Hamas. That being said, its not the fault of the ICC that they don't really have any sway with Gaza. The ICC not pursuing someone they can't pursue isn't a mark against the ICC. I think you could argue the ICC ought to advocate for prosecution for any crimes within whatever "jurisdiction" they have. In this case, it includes Israel and does not include Gaza. It paints an extremely distorted picture in terms of optics, but its not like the ICC is at fault for the situation. Ultimately, the whole thing is still just theatrics because the ICC will of course never actually arrest Netanyahu or any of Israel's leadership. It doesn't include Israel either, because Israel isn't a signatory of the ICC, so focusing on their own jurisdiction is a nonsensical reason here. What they're doing is focusing on targets who are unlikely to be prosecuted for their (alleged) crimes by other means. Because lets face it, the minute Sinwar appears is the minute he is found dead.The same goes for other Hamas top brass. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15690 Posts
On May 22 2024 08:47 Acrofales wrote: It doesn't include Israel either, because Israel isn't a signatory of the ICC, so focusing on their own jurisdiction is a nonsensical reason here. What they're doing is focusing on targets who are unlikely to be prosecuted for their (alleged) crimes by other means. Because lets face it, the minute Sinwar appears is the minute he is found dead.The same goes for other Hamas top brass. It doesn't include Israel, but Netanyahu and other Israeli officials will have a variety of government-related reasons to travel to ICC-affiliated nations. The same is not true for Sinwar. Your point regarding Sinwar and other Hamas dipshits is why I am saying it has 0 impact on Hamas but a very significant impact on Israel. | ||
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pmp10
3331 Posts
Predictable. Let's see if ICC dares to issue that arrest warrant. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1103 Posts
Ireland, Spain and Norway are planning to recognise the Palestinian state next week. I don't think it's going to change anything, but it might be interesting to see how "Irishman" Joe Biden chooses to respond. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25484 Posts
On May 22 2024 13:51 pmp10 wrote: US is signaling it's ready to sanction ICC. Predictable. Let's see if ICC dares to issue that arrest warrant. A truly maddening article to read that one. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4177 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23250 Posts
On May 22 2024 20:18 Magic Powers wrote: The problem for Biden is that, if Netanyahu is considered guilty of war crimes, then the US will face increased pressure to cut military ties with Israel until someone working towards peace replaces Netanyahu. That's why Biden opposes the ICC. It's not necessarily because he personally believes Netanyahu is innocent, it's much more because of how his guilt would affect US-Israel relations in the short term. It'd affect Biden's image negatively if his name was associated with a brutal, unjust war. More than that it's probable Biden and his administration would be guilty as well for aiding and abetting those war crimes along with him doing so being in violation of US law. Even if Biden is obviously and objectively guilty (a threshold crossed already for many), who can/would hold him/the US accountable for those crimes? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21711 Posts
On May 23 2024 06:14 GreenHorizons wrote: The answer should be voters, but thanks to the nature of the US electoral system and the fact that the other option is somehow even worse.More than that it's probable Biden and his administration would be guilty as well for aiding and abetting those war crimes along with him doing so being in violation of US law. Even if Biden is obviously and objectively guilty (a threshold crossed already for many), who can/would hold him/the US accountable for those crimes? No one. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4177 Posts
On May 23 2024 06:14 GreenHorizons wrote: More than that it's probable Biden and his administration would be guilty as well for aiding and abetting those war crimes along with him doing so being in violation of US law. Even if Biden is obviously and objectively guilty (a threshold crossed already for many), who can/would hold him/the US accountable for those crimes? Actually a fair point, I didn't consider this. Biden should have known of the actions taken by Israel's administration such as collective punishment and obstruction of aid. After all Biden himself was critical of Israel about this for months while continuing to send military aid. The consequence being that Biden could be held liable for aiding actions that he himself should've known amounted to war crimes. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23250 Posts
On May 23 2024 06:23 Gorsameth wrote: The answer should be voters, but thanks to the nature of the US electoral system and the fact that the other option is somehow even worse. No one. That's not accountability, that's an "early" retirement with benefits. The answer (besides revolutionaries in the US) is Europe, but that would take a spine that seems to be sorely lacking over there (and here among ostensibly progressive people). If the "international rules based order" was anything more than a euphemism for US led authoritarian hegemony, it would be obvious that the US/Biden and Israel need to be under international sanctions for their roles in the ongoing illegal occupation of Palestine and the accompanying ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign of Palestinians by Israel. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21711 Posts
On May 23 2024 07:00 GreenHorizons wrote: Europe has very little means to hold the US accountable. Any sanctions upon the US would most likely hit the EU harder then the US.That's not accountability, that's an "early" retirement with benefits. The answer (besides revolutionaries in the US) is Europe, but that would take a spine that seems to be sorely lacking over there (and here among ostensibly progressive people). If the "international rules based order" was anything more than a euphemism for US led authoritarian hegemony, it would be obvious that the US/Biden and Israel need to be under international sanctions for their roles in the ongoing illegal occupation of Palestine and the accompanying ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign of Palestinians by Israel. | ||
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