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On April 23 2024 23:34 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2024 17:29 Elroi wrote:
My impression is that antisemitism on the right is a very marginal phenomenon on the whole today. There is a pretty sharp dividing line between the old far-right and the new populist right. It's on full display, for example, with the Front national/ Rassemblement national purging the old guard (most significantly Jean-Marie Le Pen himself). The populist right seems to rather embrace Israel as culturally similar (Judeo-Christian heritage). It's also a model of a successful modern state that incorporates elements of ethnonatonalism. I think it has just become a lot less overt. The populists just use the word globalists (left uses capitalists ) but the conspiracies are mostly the same and they love to be able to blame a “they” for all that is wrong in the world. It allows simplicity from very complex problems. Much easier to believe it’s some group causing all the problems than the messy reality.
Do you think that 'populists' is a potentially a 'they'?
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On April 24 2024 00:12 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2024 23:37 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 23 2024 23:34 JimmiC wrote:On April 23 2024 17:29 Elroi wrote:
My impression is that antisemitism on the right is a very marginal phenomenon on the whole today. There is a pretty sharp dividing line between the old far-right and the new populist right. It's on full display, for example, with the Front national/ Rassemblement national purging the old guard (most significantly Jean-Marie Le Pen himself). The populist right seems to rather embrace Israel as culturally similar (Judeo-Christian heritage). It's also a model of a successful modern state that incorporates elements of ethnonatonalism. I think it has just become a lot less overt. The populists just use the word globalists (left uses capitalists ) but the conspiracies are mostly the same and they love to be able to blame a “they” for all that is wrong in the world. It allows simplicity from very complex problems. Much easier to believe it’s some group causing all the problems than the messy reality. Do you think that 'populists' is a potentially a 'they'? No, populists are a pretty well defined and real group. And easily manipulated.
But you appear to be blaming them for all that's wrong with the world. I know that's an attribute you like to assign others, but it seems like you're doing a pretty good job with exactly the same thing.
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On April 24 2024 00:29 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2024 00:14 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 24 2024 00:12 JimmiC wrote:On April 23 2024 23:37 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 23 2024 23:34 JimmiC wrote:On April 23 2024 17:29 Elroi wrote:
My impression is that antisemitism on the right is a very marginal phenomenon on the whole today. There is a pretty sharp dividing line between the old far-right and the new populist right. It's on full display, for example, with the Front national/ Rassemblement national purging the old guard (most significantly Jean-Marie Le Pen himself). The populist right seems to rather embrace Israel as culturally similar (Judeo-Christian heritage). It's also a model of a successful modern state that incorporates elements of ethnonatonalism. I think it has just become a lot less overt. The populists just use the word globalists (left uses capitalists ) but the conspiracies are mostly the same and they love to be able to blame a “they” for all that is wrong in the world. It allows simplicity from very complex problems. Much easier to believe it’s some group causing all the problems than the messy reality. Do you think that 'populists' is a potentially a 'they'? No, populists are a pretty well defined and real group. And easily manipulated. But you appear to be blaming them for all that's wrong with the world. I know that's an attribute you like to assign others, but it seems like you're doing a pretty good job with exactly the same thing. Not at all, there is tons of people who are at fault for all sorts of different things. I'm doing the complete opposite. Explaining that populists think a a nebulous group is causing all the problems, does not mean I think they are a nebulous group causing all the problems. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.
Not just from this post, from your general posting over a long period of time. I do pay attention even though I don't make many posts these days.
There's this centrist.... arrogance (I can't find the right word, don't take it personally - I'm not trying to describe you or your personality) where they feel like only centrists can possibly ever be balanced about anything, and that even when they use ridiculously simplified - and often completely inaccurate - generalizations they claim to be doing so in a balanced way.
For example, claiming that leftists blame capitalists for everything. They don't. They do kind of blame capitalism for everything, but capitalism is a system, not a group of people. However, you needed to make 'populists' a group of people you could blame for something - and your point ironically had to do with blaming groups of people, so you've made a huge mistake in trying to put a square peg in a round hole.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On April 24 2024 00:38 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2024 00:29 JimmiC wrote:On April 24 2024 00:14 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 24 2024 00:12 JimmiC wrote:On April 23 2024 23:37 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 23 2024 23:34 JimmiC wrote:On April 23 2024 17:29 Elroi wrote:
My impression is that antisemitism on the right is a very marginal phenomenon on the whole today. There is a pretty sharp dividing line between the old far-right and the new populist right. It's on full display, for example, with the Front national/ Rassemblement national purging the old guard (most significantly Jean-Marie Le Pen himself). The populist right seems to rather embrace Israel as culturally similar (Judeo-Christian heritage). It's also a model of a successful modern state that incorporates elements of ethnonatonalism. I think it has just become a lot less overt. The populists just use the word globalists (left uses capitalists ) but the conspiracies are mostly the same and they love to be able to blame a “they” for all that is wrong in the world. It allows simplicity from very complex problems. Much easier to believe it’s some group causing all the problems than the messy reality. Do you think that 'populists' is a potentially a 'they'? No, populists are a pretty well defined and real group. And easily manipulated. But you appear to be blaming them for all that's wrong with the world. I know that's an attribute you like to assign others, but it seems like you're doing a pretty good job with exactly the same thing. Not at all, there is tons of people who are at fault for all sorts of different things. I'm doing the complete opposite. Explaining that populists think a a nebulous group is causing all the problems, does not mean I think they are a nebulous group causing all the problems. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. Not just from this post, from your general posting over a long period of time. I do pay attention even though I don't make many posts these days. There's this centrist.... arrogance (I can't find the right word, don't take it personally - I'm not trying to describe you or your personality) where they feel like only centrists can possibly ever be balanced about anything, and that even when they use ridiculously simplified - and often completely inaccurate - generalizations they claim to be doing so in a balanced way. For example, claiming that leftists blame capitalists for everything. They don't. They do kind of blame capitalism for everything, but capitalism is a system, not a group of people. However, you needed to make 'populists' a group of people you could blame for something - and your point ironically had to do with blaming groups of people, so you've made a huge mistake in trying to put a square peg in a round hole.
Indeed, horseshoe theory doesn’t hold up to much scrutiny.
Leftists, especially the further left you go generally don’t believe shadowy elites control everything. Sure they exist, but they’re a consequence of a self-perpetuating overarching system.
Fundamentally, albeit unexpressed the right also have big issues with free-market capitalism, but only because it’s shaping society in directions they don’t like. So, to square that particular circle they gravitate to the shadowy elites as the explanatory factor for their dissatisfaction.
Overt, actual fascists are a little different in my experience in they are cognisant in disliking free market capitalism to begin with.
Of course I am broad-brushing as is my way. There is absolutely anti-Semitism in the left, experienced it in my various internet haunts, but capitalist is in no way some kind of proxy word for Jews or whatever folks claim.
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On April 24 2024 05:03 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2024 00:38 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 24 2024 00:29 JimmiC wrote:On April 24 2024 00:14 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 24 2024 00:12 JimmiC wrote:On April 23 2024 23:37 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 23 2024 23:34 JimmiC wrote:On April 23 2024 17:29 Elroi wrote:
My impression is that antisemitism on the right is a very marginal phenomenon on the whole today. There is a pretty sharp dividing line between the old far-right and the new populist right. It's on full display, for example, with the Front national/ Rassemblement national purging the old guard (most significantly Jean-Marie Le Pen himself). The populist right seems to rather embrace Israel as culturally similar (Judeo-Christian heritage). It's also a model of a successful modern state that incorporates elements of ethnonatonalism. I think it has just become a lot less overt. The populists just use the word globalists (left uses capitalists ) but the conspiracies are mostly the same and they love to be able to blame a “they” for all that is wrong in the world. It allows simplicity from very complex problems. Much easier to believe it’s some group causing all the problems than the messy reality. Do you think that 'populists' is a potentially a 'they'? No, populists are a pretty well defined and real group. And easily manipulated. But you appear to be blaming them for all that's wrong with the world. I know that's an attribute you like to assign others, but it seems like you're doing a pretty good job with exactly the same thing. Not at all, there is tons of people who are at fault for all sorts of different things. I'm doing the complete opposite. Explaining that populists think a a nebulous group is causing all the problems, does not mean I think they are a nebulous group causing all the problems. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. Not just from this post, from your general posting over a long period of time. I do pay attention even though I don't make many posts these days. There's this centrist.... arrogance (I can't find the right word, don't take it personally - I'm not trying to describe you or your personality) where they feel like only centrists can possibly ever be balanced about anything, and that even when they use ridiculously simplified - and often completely inaccurate - generalizations they claim to be doing so in a balanced way. For example, claiming that leftists blame capitalists for everything. They don't. They do kind of blame capitalism for everything, but capitalism is a system, not a group of people. However, you needed to make 'populists' a group of people you could blame for something - and your point ironically had to do with blaming groups of people, so you've made a huge mistake in trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Indeed, horseshoe theory doesn’t hold up to much scrutiny. Leftists, especially the further left you go generally don’t believe shadowy elites control everything. Sure they exist, but they’re a consequence of a self-perpetuating overarching system. Fundamentally, albeit unexpressed the right also have big issues with free-market capitalism, but only because it’s shaping society in directions they don’t like. So, to square that particular circle they gravitate to the shadowy elites as the explanatory factor for their dissatisfaction. Overt, actual fascists are a little different in my experience in they are cognisant in disliking free market capitalism to begin with. Of course I am broad-brushing as is my way. There is absolutely anti-Semitism in the left, experienced it in my various internet haunts, but capitalist is in no way some kind of proxy word for Jews or whatever folks claim.
Yeah the problem with the notion of a populist right is that the right isn't fundamentally against elites, their issue is what the current elites are and what they're doing specifically. Depending on the flavor of rightwing they'll claim that social hierarchies are unavoidable, or part of the natural state of things, or even a good thing. So the issue is liberalism for them, as opposed to the existence of a social hierarchy, and being against liberalism isn't especially a populist notion, it's quite an elitist one.
This isn't to say that ordinary people who call themselves "populist rightwingers" are lying. Usually what happens then is that they are people who lean liberal economically and conservative socially. Not exactly the best descriptive term but hey, I didn't make the rules. And keep in mind that there's a decent amount of people like that, otherwise politicians wouldn't pretend to be populists every time there's an election coming.
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On April 24 2024 05:03 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2024 00:38 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 24 2024 00:29 JimmiC wrote:On April 24 2024 00:14 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 24 2024 00:12 JimmiC wrote:On April 23 2024 23:37 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 23 2024 23:34 JimmiC wrote:On April 23 2024 17:29 Elroi wrote:
My impression is that antisemitism on the right is a very marginal phenomenon on the whole today. There is a pretty sharp dividing line between the old far-right and the new populist right. It's on full display, for example, with the Front national/ Rassemblement national purging the old guard (most significantly Jean-Marie Le Pen himself). The populist right seems to rather embrace Israel as culturally similar (Judeo-Christian heritage). It's also a model of a successful modern state that incorporates elements of ethnonatonalism. I think it has just become a lot less overt. The populists just use the word globalists (left uses capitalists ) but the conspiracies are mostly the same and they love to be able to blame a “they” for all that is wrong in the world. It allows simplicity from very complex problems. Much easier to believe it’s some group causing all the problems than the messy reality. Do you think that 'populists' is a potentially a 'they'? No, populists are a pretty well defined and real group. And easily manipulated. But you appear to be blaming them for all that's wrong with the world. I know that's an attribute you like to assign others, but it seems like you're doing a pretty good job with exactly the same thing. Not at all, there is tons of people who are at fault for all sorts of different things. I'm doing the complete opposite. Explaining that populists think a a nebulous group is causing all the problems, does not mean I think they are a nebulous group causing all the problems. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. Not just from this post, from your general posting over a long period of time. I do pay attention even though I don't make many posts these days. There's this centrist.... arrogance (I can't find the right word, don't take it personally - I'm not trying to describe you or your personality) where they feel like only centrists can possibly ever be balanced about anything, and that even when they use ridiculously simplified - and often completely inaccurate - generalizations they claim to be doing so in a balanced way. For example, claiming that leftists blame capitalists for everything. They don't. They do kind of blame capitalism for everything, but capitalism is a system, not a group of people. However, you needed to make 'populists' a group of people you could blame for something - and your point ironically had to do with blaming groups of people, so you've made a huge mistake in trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Indeed, horseshoe theory doesn’t hold up to much scrutiny. Leftists, especially the further left you go generally don’t believe shadowy elites control everything. Sure they exist, but they’re a consequence of a self-perpetuating overarching system. Fundamentally, albeit unexpressed the right also have big issues with free-market capitalism, but only because it’s shaping society in directions they don’t like. So, to square that particular circle they gravitate to the shadowy elites as the explanatory factor for their dissatisfaction. Overt, actual fascists are a little different in my experience in they are cognisant in disliking free market capitalism to begin with. Of course I am broad-brushing as is my way. There is absolutely anti-Semitism in the left, experienced it in my various internet haunts, but capitalist is in no way some kind of proxy word for Jews or whatever folks claim.
Oh for sure. I've very rarely heard 'capitalist' used as a pejorative on the left at all, let alone as a dog whistle.
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So not all hostages are dead. Hamas gave the video to Qatar showing the particular Israeli-American citizen is in fact alive.
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/24/germany-to-resume-funding-of-unrwa-aid-operations-in-gaza
Germany’s decision follows those made earlier by several other major donors, including Australia, Canada, Sweden and Japan, to restore ties with Unwra after the Israeli government claimed in January that members of the agency had been involved in planning and carrying out the Hamas attack of 7 October that triggered the now-six-month-old war in Gaza.
The absence so far of evidence presented to underpin Israel’s allegations has raised questions about the snap decision by 19 donor governments to cut millions of dollars of funding to Unrwa, the main channel for humanitarian support for Palestinians, even as the death toll in Gaza soared, the health system collapsed and famine began to loom.
This is simply lies by Israel to undermine efforts to stop Palestinians from starving to death. This continues to this day, as Israel disputes the report (of course it does) and has just repeated its completely unfounded accusation of over 2000 UNWRA staff of being terrorists.
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On April 25 2024 05:08 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/24/germany-to-resume-funding-of-unrwa-aid-operations-in-gazaShow nested quote +
Germany’s decision follows those made earlier by several other major donors, including Australia, Canada, Sweden and Japan, to restore ties with Unwra after the Israeli government claimed in January that members of the agency had been involved in planning and carrying out the Hamas attack of 7 October that triggered the now-six-month-old war in Gaza.
The absence so far of evidence presented to underpin Israel’s allegations has raised questions about the snap decision by 19 donor governments to cut millions of dollars of funding to Unrwa, the main channel for humanitarian support for Palestinians, even as the death toll in Gaza soared, the health system collapsed and famine began to loom.
This is simply lies by Israel to undermine efforts to stop Palestinians from starving to death. This continues to this day, as Israel disputes the report (of course it does) and has just repeated its completely unfounded accusation of over 2000 UNWRA staff of being terrorists.
Nothing convinces people better than months of silence after making strong accusations - that is if the idea is to convince people that Israel's administration can't be trusted. I told people the UNRWA should keep receiving aid, but Israel gaslit everyone into throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Ukraine, being a politically corrupt country, has managed to retain complete trust from its allies, while Israel has basically gone in the complete opposite direction. It's one hell of a way to destroy a reputation in the span of just six months.
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Odd that both Guardian articles left out such a large part of the story. Pretty disappointing.
What's even more disappointing is that millions of starving people were deprived of access to whatever meagre aid they were getting simply because a hostile government said 'muh terrorists!', without any proof or accountability.
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This was an interesting development. When I did my big ole research project about the roots of Hamas, its founders, and the current leadership, I was surprised to find that despite many of the leaders seeking refuge elsewhere, they do appear to actually believe the whole holy war to establish a caliphate thing. Among those I researched, they all had actual roots in pan islamism and had participated in various activities or organizations relating to that previously.
As we all know, many puppet leaderships in the middle east throw meat to their citizens while clearly not believing it themselves. But Hamas is unique in that they appear to really think god is on their side. They want a big ole holy war and they want to hurry up and win.
However, there have been various times throughout everything that has taken place since October 7 where they have clearly lacked confidence and were openly desperate. But this feels very strongly intended to bait the US/Israel. I suppose you could argue they want the Rafah invasion to happen because they want it to galvanize their neighbors and Iran into going full-ass into holy war mode. But if that is their calculus, I'd have thought they would have done something like this sooner. Maybe its just that Qatar was trying to avoid this and Qatar failed and its that simple. Either way, suppose we'll see what happens.
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Bravo. *golfclap*
Again faith dictating reason.
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Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Peaceable Assembly until you actually use it.
National Guard, State Police and the like show up in droves to arrest college students and professors across America for the crime of protest.
My own state of Indiana had snipers on a roof aimed at unarmed college students.
Note that no violence was being perfomed, no destruction or demolition. Peaceful congregation.
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On April 26 2024 23:27 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2024 23:23 Cricketer12 wrote:
Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Peaceable Assembly until you actually use it.
National Guard, State Police and the like show up in droves to arrest college students and professors across America for the crime of protest.
My own state of Indiana had snipers on a roof aimed at unarmed college students.
Note that no violence was being perfomed, no destruction or demolition. Peaceful congregation. This your last sentence true? I keep reading about how Jewish students are being asked to do classes virtually for their safety.
Claiming a lack of safety based on what though? An assumption that to be a protestor is to be anti-semitic? Haven't seen any reports indicating any anti-semetic action has taken place/anything has been done to make Jewish students unsafe.
What I have seen is a Pro-Israeli protestor walking into the middle of a congregation and getting completely ignored.
To be 100% clear any form of anti-semitism is to be shunned and shut down. Are there anti-semites with more malicious motives among the protestors? Quite possibly. That's not what arrests and snipers are being used for. They're being used towards those "being distruptive" as if that isn't the primary function of a protest.
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EPT
