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On April 19 2024 07:07 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2024 06:33 Cricketer12 wrote:On April 19 2024 06:30 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 06:06 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 05:52 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 05:45 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 05:39 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 05:17 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 05:10 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 05:00 Nebuchad wrote:
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I didn't claim you liked it. You know the posts are public right, you can just check? You said I was pessimistic in that it has not happened but will. Which kind of defeats your whole point that it is genocide. Since in real genocides, like Dafur, the Holocaust, Cambodia, Rawanda and so on there is no question. Everyone knows it is Genocide because there is the hallmarks of actual genocide like mass executions. Heck by your definitions your good guys Iran are guilty of one in Syria and it killed 20x the people. And yet you think they are good guys. You simply have no logic, just edgelordy incendiary comments that you are unwilling to back up with any sort logic let alone a source. You misunderstood me, I said you were pessimistic in calling it unsuccessful. I highly doubt that Netanyahu views this 40k number as a failure, of course he would have wanted more but I'm sure he thinks this is good (and also he might still get more!) I think what happened was you were already agitated from trying to start fights with like 3 different people on the forum at the same time, and also from your general disposition of "old man who yells at clouds", and so you decided to take this post as an indication that I think you like it when Palestinians die, which it wasn't. I don't think you like it when Palestinians die by the way, I think you couldn't care less one way or the other, it's all just a forum game to you. I was not saying it was unsuccessful I'm saying it was never intended. If he wanted more than 40k he would have it, they have the power and firepower to kill everyone. If he was Hitler or Pol Pot or any of the others it would have just happened. It has not because they do not want it too. It is clear and obvious. Their words even match their actions. They have said they will destroy Hamas, regardless of civilian causalities and that is what they have done. What you are doing is extremely offensive, hateful and needs to be shouted down every time. There is actual Holocaust survivors in Israel, on top of that almost everyone their has a parent, grandparent, uncle, aunt (more likely multiple) that were killed or lived in a concentration camp during an actual genocide where they were trying to be exterminated. Turning the word around on them is not some cool burn you use for extra internet points, it is extremely personal and deeply hurtful. You are no different than the rednecks around here that claim the aboriginals are colonialists whenever they do something they don't like, other than that you as a educated person should know better. It is beyond frustrating that you somehow think you have the moral high ground. You are being an awful human just so you can look like a internet tough guy or seem cool to people you will never meet not caring about all the other you are deeply hurting. Do you have any insight on why, when the claim of genocide was brought to the International Court of Justice, they said "Yes it is plausible that this is what is happening", rather than "Only a russian-propaganda-addled idiot like Nebuchad would want to use this word, this is obviously not what's happening and it's an insult to Holocaust survivors to claim that it is"? Because most everything is plausible it is an extremely low bar. For example it is plausible that I am a professional hockey player. Next how many of the people that voted for that resolution are part of the Russian, Chinese, Iranian circle of influence? No, everything is not plausible lol. If your portrayal of the situation was remotely accurate, the claim of 'genocide' would be implausible, not plausible. Which is why you end your little outbursts with "It's not happening", as opposed to "There's a decent chance that it's happening, that's plausible, I don't really know". Seemingly reasonable is a very low bar, hence the example. They basically said, OK show us more information. There is plenty of innocent people who go to trial and a DA has a higher bar than plausible. Even your own posts indicate you know it is not actually genocide. If it already was genocide you would need to talk about Netanyahu doing more. It is a war, war is awful. War is even more awful in a urban setting. This war has casualties in line or lower than other urban wars. Including some that recently happened by countries you consider good guys and never mention genocide for them (even if they themselves talk about it regularly). And that is on top of the fact that Israel didn't even start this particular war. It was started by other "good guys" in your view, who did it in the most heinous way possible. You are wrong, and earlier you had said you were going to stop using the term but since you had nothing productive to add and wanted to be a incendiary edgelord you are back to it. I'm not going to read every post and some times you probably used the word not incendiarly towards Israel, but I'm sure in the 21 times since theres been a few. But for the purpose of moving the conversation forward because I don't really care I'm willing to only use ethnic cleansing in the future as opposed to also using genocide. Sticking to your word as per usual... This isn't a war, this is the continuation of a brutal occupation that has gone on for decades. To frame it in this manner does a disservice to the treatment the Palestinians have endured for years. This is a war between Hamas and Israel. Anyway you look at it is, either because you believe Hamas is the rightful a legitimate government (which I do not) or if you believe they are terrorists or even a death cult. The other part is wildly complicated and totally related but it does not change the fact that this particular set of events is a war started by Hamas.
To frame it this way is to absolve Israel of the clear direction this was always bound to head. Iranian-backed terror groups or not, dehumanize and damn people long enough and they *will* break free.
While I appreciate you admit it's related to merely chalk it up as wildily complicated makes it easy to push to the side.
October 7th was a horrific tragedy, one of many in the region. I do not wish to downplay it, but I never want us to lose sight of how this happened and the events that led to it.
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On April 19 2024 07:12 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2024 06:35 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 06:30 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 06:06 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 05:52 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 05:45 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 05:39 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 05:17 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 05:10 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 05:00 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
I didn't claim you liked it. You know the posts are public right, you can just check? You said I was pessimistic in that it has not happened but will. Which kind of defeats your whole point that it is genocide. Since in real genocides, like Dafur, the Holocaust, Cambodia, Rawanda and so on there is no question. Everyone knows it is Genocide because there is the hallmarks of actual genocide like mass executions. Heck by your definitions your good guys Iran are guilty of one in Syria and it killed 20x the people. And yet you think they are good guys. You simply have no logic, just edgelordy incendiary comments that you are unwilling to back up with any sort logic let alone a source. You misunderstood me, I said you were pessimistic in calling it unsuccessful. I highly doubt that Netanyahu views this 40k number as a failure, of course he would have wanted more but I'm sure he thinks this is good (and also he might still get more!) I think what happened was you were already agitated from trying to start fights with like 3 different people on the forum at the same time, and also from your general disposition of "old man who yells at clouds", and so you decided to take this post as an indication that I think you like it when Palestinians die, which it wasn't. I don't think you like it when Palestinians die by the way, I think you couldn't care less one way or the other, it's all just a forum game to you. I was not saying it was unsuccessful I'm saying it was never intended. If he wanted more than 40k he would have it, they have the power and firepower to kill everyone. If he was Hitler or Pol Pot or any of the others it would have just happened. It has not because they do not want it too. It is clear and obvious. Their words even match their actions. They have said they will destroy Hamas, regardless of civilian causalities and that is what they have done. What you are doing is extremely offensive, hateful and needs to be shouted down every time. There is actual Holocaust survivors in Israel, on top of that almost everyone their has a parent, grandparent, uncle, aunt (more likely multiple) that were killed or lived in a concentration camp during an actual genocide where they were trying to be exterminated. Turning the word around on them is not some cool burn you use for extra internet points, it is extremely personal and deeply hurtful. You are no different than the rednecks around here that claim the aboriginals are colonialists whenever they do something they don't like, other than that you as a educated person should know better. It is beyond frustrating that you somehow think you have the moral high ground. You are being an awful human just so you can look like a internet tough guy or seem cool to people you will never meet not caring about all the other you are deeply hurting. Do you have any insight on why, when the claim of genocide was brought to the International Court of Justice, they said "Yes it is plausible that this is what is happening", rather than "Only a russian-propaganda-addled idiot like Nebuchad would want to use this word, this is obviously not what's happening and it's an insult to Holocaust survivors to claim that it is"? Because most everything is plausible it is an extremely low bar. For example it is plausible that I am a professional hockey player. Next how many of the people that voted for that resolution are part of the Russian, Chinese, Iranian circle of influence? No, everything is not plausible lol. If your portrayal of the situation was remotely accurate, the claim of 'genocide' would be implausible, not plausible. Which is why you end your little outbursts with "It's not happening", as opposed to "There's a decent chance that it's happening, that's plausible, I don't really know". Seemingly reasonable is a very low bar, hence the example. They basically said, OK show us more information. There is plenty of innocent people who go to trial and a DA has a higher bar than plausible. Even your own posts indicate you know it is not actually genocide. If it already was genocide you would need to talk about Netanyahu doing more. It is a war, war is awful. War is even more awful in a urban setting. This war has casualties in line or lower than other urban wars. Including some that recently happened by countries you consider good guys and never mention genocide for them (even if they themselves talk about it regularly). And that is on top of the fact that Israel didn't even start this particular war. It was started by other "good guys" in your view, who did it in the most heinous way possible. You are wrong, and earlier you had said you were going to stop using the term but since you had nothing productive to add and wanted to be a incendiary edgelord you are back to it. I'm not going to read every post and some times you probably used the word not incendiarly towards Israel, but I'm sure in the 21 times since theres been a few. But for the purpose of moving the conversation forward because I don't really care I'm willing to only use ethnic cleansing in the future as opposed to also using genocide. Sticking to your word as per usual... I said that before the ICJ ruling. But yeah it is true that "ethnic cleansing" is a better word than "genocide" for this situation, I should probably have stuck to that. I don't really care and neither should you, ethnic cleansing is a better term for what happened to Armenians too and I'm never going to care that people say "Armenian genocide" instead of "Armenian ethnic cleansing" because I'm not a weirdo. "Even your own posts indicate you know it is not actually genocide. If it already was genocide you would need to talk about Netanyahu doing more." Damn, another line that should have made it to the ICJ ruling, sounds like it's very implausible that a genocide is happening since there are still living Palestinians. Your arguments are so obviously disingenuous and dishonest. All (mostly) my examples of genocides still have people from that group living, thank goodness. It is just because the group that was actually trying to do it didn’t have the power or ran out of time. If the Israelis wanted genocide it would happen and then instead of 20x less people dying then in Syria it would be 20x more. A bunch less IDF soldiers would die as well because they could just carpet bomb all the camps and houses without warning.
As we already discussed, if the US dropped Israel, its position in the Middle East would be much less tenable. Netanyahu and the rest of the far right government of Israel recognize that, and are therefore limited in how blatantly they can carry their ethnic cleansing of Palestine. If they start doing concentration camps or public executions or whatever you're envisioning, their perception is that the US will drop their support. So while Israel has all the power when it comes to the specific conflict of Israel vs the occupied territories of Palestine, it doesn't have all the power on the world stage. We know that Netanyahu has always been conscious of this parameter because back during the Tian'anmen manifestations which were in fucking 1989, he said "Israel should have taken advantage of the suppression of the demonstrations in China, while the world’s attention was focused on these events, and should have carried out mass deportations of Arabs from the territories. Unfortunately, this plan I proposed did not gain support, yet I still suggest to put it into action."
All of that I've already mentioned in the thread, and of course you'll ignore and in a few months when we have this conversation again you'll just repeat that I can't explain away your objection, because you don't really care about any of this. Netanyahu is doing exactly what he said he would do, he's pushing the envelope, but just slightly not enough for normies to notice, and that way whenever Palestinians fight back, with a good framing from the media it can still be made to look like the start of a war and not the direct continuation of the colonial violence that was always happening while uninformed people like you weren't looking.
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Don't see any Middle East country agreeing to this, let alone sending their own troops into Gaza for peacekeeping operations.
Meanwhile Iraq would be stuck in the middle between ever increasing neighbors that hate each other.
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On April 19 2024 08:50 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2024 07:32 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 07:12 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 06:35 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 06:30 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 06:06 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 05:52 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 05:45 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 05:39 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 05:17 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
You misunderstood me, I said you were pessimistic in calling it unsuccessful. I highly doubt that Netanyahu views this 40k number as a failure, of course he would have wanted more but I'm sure he thinks this is good (and also he might still get more!)
I think what happened was you were already agitated from trying to start fights with like 3 different people on the forum at the same time, and also from your general disposition of "old man who yells at clouds", and so you decided to take this post as an indication that I think you like it when Palestinians die, which it wasn't. I don't think you like it when Palestinians die by the way, I think you couldn't care less one way or the other, it's all just a forum game to you. I was not saying it was unsuccessful I'm saying it was never intended. If he wanted more than 40k he would have it, they have the power and firepower to kill everyone. If he was Hitler or Pol Pot or any of the others it would have just happened. It has not because they do not want it too. It is clear and obvious. Their words even match their actions. They have said they will destroy Hamas, regardless of civilian causalities and that is what they have done. What you are doing is extremely offensive, hateful and needs to be shouted down every time. There is actual Holocaust survivors in Israel, on top of that almost everyone their has a parent, grandparent, uncle, aunt (more likely multiple) that were killed or lived in a concentration camp during an actual genocide where they were trying to be exterminated. Turning the word around on them is not some cool burn you use for extra internet points, it is extremely personal and deeply hurtful. You are no different than the rednecks around here that claim the aboriginals are colonialists whenever they do something they don't like, other than that you as a educated person should know better. It is beyond frustrating that you somehow think you have the moral high ground. You are being an awful human just so you can look like a internet tough guy or seem cool to people you will never meet not caring about all the other you are deeply hurting. Do you have any insight on why, when the claim of genocide was brought to the International Court of Justice, they said "Yes it is plausible that this is what is happening", rather than "Only a russian-propaganda-addled idiot like Nebuchad would want to use this word, this is obviously not what's happening and it's an insult to Holocaust survivors to claim that it is"? Because most everything is plausible it is an extremely low bar. For example it is plausible that I am a professional hockey player. Next how many of the people that voted for that resolution are part of the Russian, Chinese, Iranian circle of influence? No, everything is not plausible lol. If your portrayal of the situation was remotely accurate, the claim of 'genocide' would be implausible, not plausible. Which is why you end your little outbursts with "It's not happening", as opposed to "There's a decent chance that it's happening, that's plausible, I don't really know". Seemingly reasonable is a very low bar, hence the example. They basically said, OK show us more information. There is plenty of innocent people who go to trial and a DA has a higher bar than plausible. Even your own posts indicate you know it is not actually genocide. If it already was genocide you would need to talk about Netanyahu doing more. It is a war, war is awful. War is even more awful in a urban setting. This war has casualties in line or lower than other urban wars. Including some that recently happened by countries you consider good guys and never mention genocide for them (even if they themselves talk about it regularly). And that is on top of the fact that Israel didn't even start this particular war. It was started by other "good guys" in your view, who did it in the most heinous way possible. You are wrong, and earlier you had said you were going to stop using the term but since you had nothing productive to add and wanted to be a incendiary edgelord you are back to it. I'm not going to read every post and some times you probably used the word not incendiarly towards Israel, but I'm sure in the 21 times since theres been a few. But for the purpose of moving the conversation forward because I don't really care I'm willing to only use ethnic cleansing in the future as opposed to also using genocide. Sticking to your word as per usual... I said that before the ICJ ruling. But yeah it is true that "ethnic cleansing" is a better word than "genocide" for this situation, I should probably have stuck to that. I don't really care and neither should you, ethnic cleansing is a better term for what happened to Armenians too and I'm never going to care that people say "Armenian genocide" instead of "Armenian ethnic cleansing" because I'm not a weirdo. "Even your own posts indicate you know it is not actually genocide. If it already was genocide you would need to talk about Netanyahu doing more." Damn, another line that should have made it to the ICJ ruling, sounds like it's very implausible that a genocide is happening since there are still living Palestinians. Your arguments are so obviously disingenuous and dishonest. All (mostly) my examples of genocides still have people from that group living, thank goodness. It is just because the group that was actually trying to do it didn’t have the power or ran out of time. If the Israelis wanted genocide it would happen and then instead of 20x less people dying then in Syria it would be 20x more. A bunch less IDF soldiers would die as well because they could just carpet bomb all the camps and houses without warning. As we already discussed, if the US dropped Israel, its position in the Middle East would be much less tenable. Netanyahu and the rest of the far right government of Israel recognize that, and are therefore limited in how blatantly they can carry their ethnic cleansing of Palestine. If they start doing concentration camps or public executions or whatever you're envisioning, their perception is that the US will drop their support. So while Israel has all the power when it comes to the specific conflict of Israel vs the occupied territories of Palestine, it doesn't have all the power on the world stage. We know that Netanyahu has always been conscious of this parameter because back during the Tian'anmen manifestations which were in fucking 1989, he said "Israel should have taken advantage of the suppression of the demonstrations in China, while the world’s attention was focused on these events, and should have carried out mass deportations of Arabs from the territories. Unfortunately, this plan I proposed did not gain support, yet I still suggest to put it into action." All of that I've already mentioned in the thread, and of course you'll ignore and in a few months when we have this conversation again you'll just repeat that I can't explain away your objection, because you don't really care about any of this. Netanyahu is doing exactly what he said he would do, he's pushing the envelope, but just slightly not enough for normies to notice, and that way whenever Palestinians fight back, with a good framing from the media it can still be made to look like the start of a war and not the direct continuation of the colonial violence that was always happening while uninformed people like you weren't looking. Good framing in the media for Israel is made up by you and completely unproven. Yes you bring up stuff like this before, but it was wrong then and it still is now. There is non stop pictures and stories about how awful it is daily. I can continue to prove this whereas you can continue to not and yet still state it as a fact. That Bibi is an asshole is not something I would argue with you, and if you had read my posts instead of just inserting your own headcannon you would get this. On the other hand Israel is still a democracy with checks and balances , so Israel has not done it. In Israel there are actual daily massive protests against him. Real genocides have almost exclusively happened with dictators because there is nothing to stop them. Your theory that the US is stopping them is a hilarious juxtaposition to all the posts about how the US is empowering them for genocide. The theories you make up to justify your position don’t even make sense if you add them together. Your good guys on the other hand are dictators and have committed atrocities both abroad and at home on a daily basis.
As usual, we've had this conversation before. The biased coverage of the media was apparent for example in The Intercept's study of language associated with Israel's actions.
https://theintercept.com/2024/01/09/newspapers-israel-palestine-bias-new-york-times/
As you can see in my post, I wasn't arguing that you think Bibi is not an asshole, instead I was answering you. You said that Israel couldn't be guilty of the things I was saying because otherwise they would have killed more, and I was telling you why they didn't do that. So what happened there was I answered your post directly, on topic, and you answered some idiotic post that I didn't write, right before accusing me of not reading your posts (maybe due to some unconscious awareness that you were being dishonest?)
I'm glad we could clear this up though!
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On April 19 2024 09:26 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2024 09:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 08:50 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 07:32 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 07:12 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 06:35 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 06:30 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 06:06 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 05:52 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 05:45 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Do you have any insight on why, when the claim of genocide was brought to the International Court of Justice, they said "Yes it is plausible that this is what is happening", rather than "Only a russian-propaganda-addled idiot like Nebuchad would want to use this word, this is obviously not what's happening and it's an insult to Holocaust survivors to claim that it is"? Because most everything is plausible it is an extremely low bar. For example it is plausible that I am a professional hockey player. Next how many of the people that voted for that resolution are part of the Russian, Chinese, Iranian circle of influence? No, everything is not plausible lol. If your portrayal of the situation was remotely accurate, the claim of 'genocide' would be implausible, not plausible. Which is why you end your little outbursts with "It's not happening", as opposed to "There's a decent chance that it's happening, that's plausible, I don't really know". Seemingly reasonable is a very low bar, hence the example. They basically said, OK show us more information. There is plenty of innocent people who go to trial and a DA has a higher bar than plausible. Even your own posts indicate you know it is not actually genocide. If it already was genocide you would need to talk about Netanyahu doing more. It is a war, war is awful. War is even more awful in a urban setting. This war has casualties in line or lower than other urban wars. Including some that recently happened by countries you consider good guys and never mention genocide for them (even if they themselves talk about it regularly). And that is on top of the fact that Israel didn't even start this particular war. It was started by other "good guys" in your view, who did it in the most heinous way possible. You are wrong, and earlier you had said you were going to stop using the term but since you had nothing productive to add and wanted to be a incendiary edgelord you are back to it. I'm not going to read every post and some times you probably used the word not incendiarly towards Israel, but I'm sure in the 21 times since theres been a few. But for the purpose of moving the conversation forward because I don't really care I'm willing to only use ethnic cleansing in the future as opposed to also using genocide. Sticking to your word as per usual... I said that before the ICJ ruling. But yeah it is true that "ethnic cleansing" is a better word than "genocide" for this situation, I should probably have stuck to that. I don't really care and neither should you, ethnic cleansing is a better term for what happened to Armenians too and I'm never going to care that people say "Armenian genocide" instead of "Armenian ethnic cleansing" because I'm not a weirdo. "Even your own posts indicate you know it is not actually genocide. If it already was genocide you would need to talk about Netanyahu doing more." Damn, another line that should have made it to the ICJ ruling, sounds like it's very implausible that a genocide is happening since there are still living Palestinians. Your arguments are so obviously disingenuous and dishonest. All (mostly) my examples of genocides still have people from that group living, thank goodness. It is just because the group that was actually trying to do it didn’t have the power or ran out of time. If the Israelis wanted genocide it would happen and then instead of 20x less people dying then in Syria it would be 20x more. A bunch less IDF soldiers would die as well because they could just carpet bomb all the camps and houses without warning. As we already discussed, if the US dropped Israel, its position in the Middle East would be much less tenable. Netanyahu and the rest of the far right government of Israel recognize that, and are therefore limited in how blatantly they can carry their ethnic cleansing of Palestine. If they start doing concentration camps or public executions or whatever you're envisioning, their perception is that the US will drop their support. So while Israel has all the power when it comes to the specific conflict of Israel vs the occupied territories of Palestine, it doesn't have all the power on the world stage. We know that Netanyahu has always been conscious of this parameter because back during the Tian'anmen manifestations which were in fucking 1989, he said "Israel should have taken advantage of the suppression of the demonstrations in China, while the world’s attention was focused on these events, and should have carried out mass deportations of Arabs from the territories. Unfortunately, this plan I proposed did not gain support, yet I still suggest to put it into action." All of that I've already mentioned in the thread, and of course you'll ignore and in a few months when we have this conversation again you'll just repeat that I can't explain away your objection, because you don't really care about any of this. Netanyahu is doing exactly what he said he would do, he's pushing the envelope, but just slightly not enough for normies to notice, and that way whenever Palestinians fight back, with a good framing from the media it can still be made to look like the start of a war and not the direct continuation of the colonial violence that was always happening while uninformed people like you weren't looking. Good framing in the media for Israel is made up by you and completely unproven. Yes you bring up stuff like this before, but it was wrong then and it still is now. There is non stop pictures and stories about how awful it is daily. I can continue to prove this whereas you can continue to not and yet still state it as a fact. That Bibi is an asshole is not something I would argue with you, and if you had read my posts instead of just inserting your own headcannon you would get this. On the other hand Israel is still a democracy with checks and balances , so Israel has not done it. In Israel there are actual daily massive protests against him. Real genocides have almost exclusively happened with dictators because there is nothing to stop them. Your theory that the US is stopping them is a hilarious juxtaposition to all the posts about how the US is empowering them for genocide. The theories you make up to justify your position don’t even make sense if you add them together. Your good guys on the other hand are dictators and have committed atrocities both abroad and at home on a daily basis. As usual, we've had this conversation before. The biased coverage of the media was apparent for example in The Intercept's study of language associated with Israel's actions. https://theintercept.com/2024/01/09/newspapers-israel-palestine-bias-new-york-times/As you can see in my post, I wasn't arguing that you think Bibi is not an asshole, instead I was answering you. You said that Israel couldn't be guilty of the things I was saying because otherwise they would have killed more, and I was telling you why they didn't do that. So what happened there was I answered your post directly, on topic, and you answered some idiotic post that I didn't write, right before accusing me of not reading your posts (maybe due to some unconscious awareness that you were being dishonest?) I'm glad we could clear this up though! Your source says the first 6 weeks. We are way past that. Yes we did this before. And your point is still wrong, since more time has passed, likely more wrong. They have killed more than they wanted not less. Some specific assholes that every country has would like to kill more. But because of checks and balances that include the international community they have not. While you seem to believe that the hearts and minds of Israel are evil, I tend to look at what has happened vs what I think would have happened if they didn’t exist. It is also why I value those rules and am so against these populists/communists because often it’s them doing the actual genocides because there is nothing to stop them when they are corrupted by power. If Israel was to fall into dictatorship, genocide would become a much greater threat. I’m glad that we can agree that genocide hasn’t happened. I think we agree that if Bibi was a dictator Gaza and the west bank would be ethnically cleansed. Our disagreement is that I don’t believe Israel wants to commit genocide, I believe they want to be safe from genocide and are willing to cross lines I wouldn’t. But I also have some compassion because I do not live under the constant threat of rockets. None of my friends or family was raped and murdered than had it publicly celebrated and also none of the countries surrounding me are constantly talking about genociding me and my family with the only thing stopping them being my countries military might.
Don't worry it didn't stop after 6 weeks, for example here: https://www.medialens.org/2024/israels-flour-massacre-when-a-crime-becomes-a-tragedy/
I don't care what you think about populists or communists, imma skip that. No follow-up on the "They would have killed more" claim, just some claim that they actually wanted to kill less because you say so. So in a few months when you pretend once again that I can't tell you why they haven't killed more I'll just link this post again (and that's the good future, in the bad future they have killed a bunch more and you're finding some new justification for why they had to do it).
It's too bad that you can empathize with what it's like to live under the constant threat of rockets, but not with what it's like to live under the constant threat of bombs and ethnic cleansing campaigns, or the constant threat of an occupying force. But to some extent I understand it, you could some day be a victim of terrorism, but it's very obvious that you will never be bombed by the West, or occupied. So the first experience is more accessible to you than the second, and it's easier for you to empathize with it.
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Guessing this is the response?
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On April 19 2024 10:38 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2024 09:40 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 09:26 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 09:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 08:50 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 07:32 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 07:12 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 06:35 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 06:30 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 06:06 Nebuchad wrote:
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No, everything is not plausible lol. If your portrayal of the situation was remotely accurate, the claim of 'genocide' would be implausible, not plausible. Which is why you end your little outbursts with "It's not happening", as opposed to "There's a decent chance that it's happening, that's plausible, I don't really know".
Seemingly reasonable is a very low bar, hence the example. They basically said, OK show us more information. There is plenty of innocent people who go to trial and a DA has a higher bar than plausible. Even your own posts indicate you know it is not actually genocide. If it already was genocide you would need to talk about Netanyahu doing more. It is a war, war is awful. War is even more awful in a urban setting. This war has casualties in line or lower than other urban wars. Including some that recently happened by countries you consider good guys and never mention genocide for them (even if they themselves talk about it regularly). And that is on top of the fact that Israel didn't even start this particular war. It was started by other "good guys" in your view, who did it in the most heinous way possible. You are wrong, and earlier you had said you were going to stop using the term but since you had nothing productive to add and wanted to be a incendiary edgelord you are back to it. I'm not going to read every post and some times you probably used the word not incendiarly towards Israel, but I'm sure in the 21 times since theres been a few. But for the purpose of moving the conversation forward because I don't really care I'm willing to only use ethnic cleansing in the future as opposed to also using genocide. Sticking to your word as per usual... I said that before the ICJ ruling. But yeah it is true that "ethnic cleansing" is a better word than "genocide" for this situation, I should probably have stuck to that. I don't really care and neither should you, ethnic cleansing is a better term for what happened to Armenians too and I'm never going to care that people say "Armenian genocide" instead of "Armenian ethnic cleansing" because I'm not a weirdo. "Even your own posts indicate you know it is not actually genocide. If it already was genocide you would need to talk about Netanyahu doing more." Damn, another line that should have made it to the ICJ ruling, sounds like it's very implausible that a genocide is happening since there are still living Palestinians. Your arguments are so obviously disingenuous and dishonest. All (mostly) my examples of genocides still have people from that group living, thank goodness. It is just because the group that was actually trying to do it didn’t have the power or ran out of time. If the Israelis wanted genocide it would happen and then instead of 20x less people dying then in Syria it would be 20x more. A bunch less IDF soldiers would die as well because they could just carpet bomb all the camps and houses without warning. As we already discussed, if the US dropped Israel, its position in the Middle East would be much less tenable. Netanyahu and the rest of the far right government of Israel recognize that, and are therefore limited in how blatantly they can carry their ethnic cleansing of Palestine. If they start doing concentration camps or public executions or whatever you're envisioning, their perception is that the US will drop their support. So while Israel has all the power when it comes to the specific conflict of Israel vs the occupied territories of Palestine, it doesn't have all the power on the world stage. We know that Netanyahu has always been conscious of this parameter because back during the Tian'anmen manifestations which were in fucking 1989, he said "Israel should have taken advantage of the suppression of the demonstrations in China, while the world’s attention was focused on these events, and should have carried out mass deportations of Arabs from the territories. Unfortunately, this plan I proposed did not gain support, yet I still suggest to put it into action." All of that I've already mentioned in the thread, and of course you'll ignore and in a few months when we have this conversation again you'll just repeat that I can't explain away your objection, because you don't really care about any of this. Netanyahu is doing exactly what he said he would do, he's pushing the envelope, but just slightly not enough for normies to notice, and that way whenever Palestinians fight back, with a good framing from the media it can still be made to look like the start of a war and not the direct continuation of the colonial violence that was always happening while uninformed people like you weren't looking. Good framing in the media for Israel is made up by you and completely unproven. Yes you bring up stuff like this before, but it was wrong then and it still is now. There is non stop pictures and stories about how awful it is daily. I can continue to prove this whereas you can continue to not and yet still state it as a fact. That Bibi is an asshole is not something I would argue with you, and if you had read my posts instead of just inserting your own headcannon you would get this. On the other hand Israel is still a democracy with checks and balances , so Israel has not done it. In Israel there are actual daily massive protests against him. Real genocides have almost exclusively happened with dictators because there is nothing to stop them. Your theory that the US is stopping them is a hilarious juxtaposition to all the posts about how the US is empowering them for genocide. The theories you make up to justify your position don’t even make sense if you add them together. Your good guys on the other hand are dictators and have committed atrocities both abroad and at home on a daily basis. As usual, we've had this conversation before. The biased coverage of the media was apparent for example in The Intercept's study of language associated with Israel's actions. https://theintercept.com/2024/01/09/newspapers-israel-palestine-bias-new-york-times/As you can see in my post, I wasn't arguing that you think Bibi is not an asshole, instead I was answering you. You said that Israel couldn't be guilty of the things I was saying because otherwise they would have killed more, and I was telling you why they didn't do that. So what happened there was I answered your post directly, on topic, and you answered some idiotic post that I didn't write, right before accusing me of not reading your posts (maybe due to some unconscious awareness that you were being dishonest?) I'm glad we could clear this up though! Your source says the first 6 weeks. We are way past that. Yes we did this before. And your point is still wrong, since more time has passed, likely more wrong. They have killed more than they wanted not less. Some specific assholes that every country has would like to kill more. But because of checks and balances that include the international community they have not. While you seem to believe that the hearts and minds of Israel are evil, I tend to look at what has happened vs what I think would have happened if they didn’t exist. It is also why I value those rules and am so against these populists/communists because often it’s them doing the actual genocides because there is nothing to stop them when they are corrupted by power. If Israel was to fall into dictatorship, genocide would become a much greater threat. I’m glad that we can agree that genocide hasn’t happened. I think we agree that if Bibi was a dictator Gaza and the west bank would be ethnically cleansed. Our disagreement is that I don’t believe Israel wants to commit genocide, I believe they want to be safe from genocide and are willing to cross lines I wouldn’t. But I also have some compassion because I do not live under the constant threat of rockets. None of my friends or family was raped and murdered than had it publicly celebrated and also none of the countries surrounding me are constantly talking about genociding me and my family with the only thing stopping them being my countries military might. Don't worry it didn't stop after 6 weeks, for example here: https://www.medialens.org/2024/israels-flour-massacre-when-a-crime-becomes-a-tragedy/I don't care what you think about populists or communists, imma skip that. No follow-up on the "They would have killed more" claim, just some claim that they actually wanted to kill less because you say so. So in a few months when you pretend once again that I can't tell you why they haven't killed more I'll just link this post again (and that's the good future, in the bad future they have killed a bunch more and you're finding some new justification for why they had to do it). It's too bad that you can empathize with what it's like to live under the constant threat of rockets, but not with what it's like to live under the constant threat of bombs and ethnic cleansing campaigns, or the constant threat of an occupying force. But to some extent I understand it, you could some day be a victim of terrorism, but it's very obvious that you will never be bombed by the West, or occupied. So the first experience is more accessible to you than the second, and it's easier for you to empathize with it. I empathize with the Palestinians as well and have verbalized it many times, that you “can’t remember” is not shocking. The reality is if genocide happened you wouldn’t have to tell me a bunch of excuses about what stopping it, because it wouldn’t be stopped. I already talked about how disrespectful you are to all the people in Israel that were apart of an actual genocide, but that is true to everyone who has been affected by them. You are devaluing the word. As to you bias in media garbage, you tell me what is not in the MSM that is confirmed and has happened and I’ll again find a whole bunch of examples of them actually reporting fairly on it. Your article is brutal, it has a whole bunch of unsourced comments taken out of context. [...]
So just to be clear, you think that the media was biased during the first 6 weeks, like The Intercept shows, and then it... stopped being biased?
Reading you talk about how if genocide was happening it would be clear because it can't be stopped, I am once again reminded that "the great crime of the left is being right too early, when there's still time to act".
Also wonder if it's really the case that all of those victims of the Holocaust that you bring up feel that you're being respectful when you use their experience in defense of other perpetrators. I would bet my life on the notion that some of them would find that obscene.
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Will be interesting to see what the targets are. Israeli officials are quiet which means something is in motion.
Israel, early Friday morning local time, launched missiles in a retaliatory strike against Iran, a senior U.S. official told ABC News.
The missile launches follow Iran's attack last Saturday, where the country sent a volley of more than 300 uncrewed drones and missiles toward targets throughout the country, Israeli military officials previously said. All but a few were intercepted by Israel and its allies, including the United States, officials said.
Iran's attack came more than six months after Hamas terrorists invaded Israel on Oct. 7, after which the Israeli military began its bombardment of the Gaza Strip.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and the country's war cabinet have met several times since the Iran strikes, and as ABC News previously reported, at least two strikes were previously aborted.
Source
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All flights in and out of Tehran canceled. Airspace closed. It's also Khamenei's birthday.
Targets were in Iran, Iraq, and Syria apparently.
edit: CBS also confirming airstrikes happening.
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On April 19 2024 11:51 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2024 10:58 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 10:38 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 09:40 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 09:26 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 09:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 08:50 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 07:32 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2024 07:12 JimmiC wrote:On April 19 2024 06:35 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
I said that before the ICJ ruling. But yeah it is true that "ethnic cleansing" is a better word than "genocide" for this situation, I should probably have stuck to that. I don't really care and neither should you, ethnic cleansing is a better term for what happened to Armenians too and I'm never going to care that people say "Armenian genocide" instead of "Armenian ethnic cleansing" because I'm not a weirdo.
"Even your own posts indicate you know it is not actually genocide. If it already was genocide you would need to talk about Netanyahu doing more."
Damn, another line that should have made it to the ICJ ruling, sounds like it's very implausible that a genocide is happening since there are still living Palestinians. Your arguments are so obviously disingenuous and dishonest. All (mostly) my examples of genocides still have people from that group living, thank goodness. It is just because the group that was actually trying to do it didn’t have the power or ran out of time. If the Israelis wanted genocide it would happen and then instead of 20x less people dying then in Syria it would be 20x more. A bunch less IDF soldiers would die as well because they could just carpet bomb all the camps and houses without warning. As we already discussed, if the US dropped Israel, its position in the Middle East would be much less tenable. Netanyahu and the rest of the far right government of Israel recognize that, and are therefore limited in how blatantly they can carry their ethnic cleansing of Palestine. If they start doing concentration camps or public executions or whatever you're envisioning, their perception is that the US will drop their support. So while Israel has all the power when it comes to the specific conflict of Israel vs the occupied territories of Palestine, it doesn't have all the power on the world stage. We know that Netanyahu has always been conscious of this parameter because back during the Tian'anmen manifestations which were in fucking 1989, he said "Israel should have taken advantage of the suppression of the demonstrations in China, while the world’s attention was focused on these events, and should have carried out mass deportations of Arabs from the territories. Unfortunately, this plan I proposed did not gain support, yet I still suggest to put it into action." All of that I've already mentioned in the thread, and of course you'll ignore and in a few months when we have this conversation again you'll just repeat that I can't explain away your objection, because you don't really care about any of this. Netanyahu is doing exactly what he said he would do, he's pushing the envelope, but just slightly not enough for normies to notice, and that way whenever Palestinians fight back, with a good framing from the media it can still be made to look like the start of a war and not the direct continuation of the colonial violence that was always happening while uninformed people like you weren't looking. Good framing in the media for Israel is made up by you and completely unproven. Yes you bring up stuff like this before, but it was wrong then and it still is now. There is non stop pictures and stories about how awful it is daily. I can continue to prove this whereas you can continue to not and yet still state it as a fact. That Bibi is an asshole is not something I would argue with you, and if you had read my posts instead of just inserting your own headcannon you would get this. On the other hand Israel is still a democracy with checks and balances , so Israel has not done it. In Israel there are actual daily massive protests against him. Real genocides have almost exclusively happened with dictators because there is nothing to stop them. Your theory that the US is stopping them is a hilarious juxtaposition to all the posts about how the US is empowering them for genocide. The theories you make up to justify your position don’t even make sense if you add them together. Your good guys on the other hand are dictators and have committed atrocities both abroad and at home on a daily basis. As usual, we've had this conversation before. The biased coverage of the media was apparent for example in The Intercept's study of language associated with Israel's actions. https://theintercept.com/2024/01/09/newspapers-israel-palestine-bias-new-york-times/As you can see in my post, I wasn't arguing that you think Bibi is not an asshole, instead I was answering you. You said that Israel couldn't be guilty of the things I was saying because otherwise they would have killed more, and I was telling you why they didn't do that. So what happened there was I answered your post directly, on topic, and you answered some idiotic post that I didn't write, right before accusing me of not reading your posts (maybe due to some unconscious awareness that you were being dishonest?) I'm glad we could clear this up though! Your source says the first 6 weeks. We are way past that. Yes we did this before. And your point is still wrong, since more time has passed, likely more wrong. They have killed more than they wanted not less. Some specific assholes that every country has would like to kill more. But because of checks and balances that include the international community they have not. While you seem to believe that the hearts and minds of Israel are evil, I tend to look at what has happened vs what I think would have happened if they didn’t exist. It is also why I value those rules and am so against these populists/communists because often it’s them doing the actual genocides because there is nothing to stop them when they are corrupted by power. If Israel was to fall into dictatorship, genocide would become a much greater threat. I’m glad that we can agree that genocide hasn’t happened. I think we agree that if Bibi was a dictator Gaza and the west bank would be ethnically cleansed. Our disagreement is that I don’t believe Israel wants to commit genocide, I believe they want to be safe from genocide and are willing to cross lines I wouldn’t. But I also have some compassion because I do not live under the constant threat of rockets. None of my friends or family was raped and murdered than had it publicly celebrated and also none of the countries surrounding me are constantly talking about genociding me and my family with the only thing stopping them being my countries military might. Don't worry it didn't stop after 6 weeks, for example here: https://www.medialens.org/2024/israels-flour-massacre-when-a-crime-becomes-a-tragedy/I don't care what you think about populists or communists, imma skip that. No follow-up on the "They would have killed more" claim, just some claim that they actually wanted to kill less because you say so. So in a few months when you pretend once again that I can't tell you why they haven't killed more I'll just link this post again (and that's the good future, in the bad future they have killed a bunch more and you're finding some new justification for why they had to do it). It's too bad that you can empathize with what it's like to live under the constant threat of rockets, but not with what it's like to live under the constant threat of bombs and ethnic cleansing campaigns, or the constant threat of an occupying force. But to some extent I understand it, you could some day be a victim of terrorism, but it's very obvious that you will never be bombed by the West, or occupied. So the first experience is more accessible to you than the second, and it's easier for you to empathize with it. I empathize with the Palestinians as well and have verbalized it many times, that you “can’t remember” is not shocking. The reality is if genocide happened you wouldn’t have to tell me a bunch of excuses about what stopping it, because it wouldn’t be stopped. I already talked about how disrespectful you are to all the people in Israel that were apart of an actual genocide, but that is true to everyone who has been affected by them. You are devaluing the word. As to you bias in media garbage, you tell me what is not in the MSM that is confirmed and has happened and I’ll again find a whole bunch of examples of them actually reporting fairly on it. Your article is brutal, it has a whole bunch of unsourced comments taken out of context. [...] So just to be clear, you think that the media was biased during the first 6 weeks, like The Intercept shows, and then it... stopped being biased? Reading you talk about how if genocide was happening it would be clear because it can't be stopped, I am once again reminded that "the great crime of the left is being right too early, when there's still time to act". Also wonder if it's really the case that all of those victims of the Holocaust that you bring up feel that you're being respectful when you use their experience in defense of other perpetrators. I would bet my life on the notion that some of them would find that obscene. I think what I said and showed what your article is really all about. Last thing I will say is the main stream media had built its whole business around being the source of truth, this has created a sense of trust with the public for a long time, it does not mean there are not mistakes, but it is very important to them to try to not make them. Non main stream media is EXTREMELY biased that the MSM is bad and untruthful because otherwise why would they exist? Their entire existence let alone all the money they make realize on it. So they need stories to show this which often require out of context quotes, half truths, leading "just asking questions" and so on. It also seems that these types of stories are very appealing to people who think they are smarter then everyone or who really want to be. Now they get to know more than even the experts, and even more than that "what the experts don't want you to know" feel free to change the word expert to a bunch of different ones but if it all alludes to this, whether it is weight loss, making easy money on the internet, sexual performance, or politics just turn off the video and watch none of theirs ever again.
Well that wasn't particularly enjoyable to read, some unwarranted defense of a media bias followed by complete fiction about how I distrust the experts when obviously the large majority of the experts on human rights and/or genocide side with my general position... Then apparently I'll buy some sex pills, you'll go there of course, why not. Certainly infuriating, but hey at least it will be the last thing you'll say.
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In the thread that I can't post in, Drone said
"No, we have a situation where the leftists are saying don't firebomb Dresden.
Edit: to back this up, here are pictures from pro-palestine marches in Europe. These are just the top from my google search, no selection happening. (well I avoided picking a 3k x 2k pixel image but it was no different from the others)
+ Show Spoiler +
I guess to be fair I don't know the meaning of the arab letters in the third picture. But these demonstrations are not 'pro-hamas' and leftists who protest Israel's actions have fairly consistently also avoided giving any support to Hamas. (Obviously not saying those voices do not exist, but they're most certainly not at the vocal forefront of the 'ceasefire now'-movement.) "
I wanted to answer not because I think it's a bad post, what he said is certainly true the main focus is on ceasefire as it should be. I just wanted to also add that Hamas ideology doesn't really look like nazism to me, it's more connected to ISIS and other far right islamist groups. I think I've read enough leftists talk about this situation to say that in the mind of many of us the government of Israel is closer to nazism than Hamas is, even if that comparison is obviously not perfect either.
So I don't know, I'm not sure we'd all side with the portrayal of "don't firebomb Dresden". I think to many of us this isn't Dresden, Tel Aviv is. But of course we shouldn't have firebombed Dresden either so there you go.
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On April 19 2024 23:07 Nebuchad wrote:In the thread that I can't post in, Drone said + Show Spoiler +"No, we have a situation where the leftists are saying don't firebomb Dresden.
Edit: to back this up, here are pictures from pro-palestine marches in Europe. These are just the top from my google search, no selection happening. (well I avoided picking a 3k x 2k pixel image but it was no different from the others)
+ Show Spoiler +
I guess to be fair I don't know the meaning of the arab letters in the third picture. But these demonstrations are not 'pro-hamas' and leftists who protest Israel's actions have fairly consistently also avoided giving any support to Hamas. (Obviously not saying those voices do not exist, but they're most certainly not at the vocal forefront of the 'ceasefire now'-movement.) "
I wanted to answer not because I think it's a bad post, what he said is certainly true the main focus is on ceasefire as it should be. I just wanted to also add that Hamas ideology doesn't really look like nazism to me, it's more connected to ISIS and other far right islamist groups. I think I've read enough leftists talk about this situation to say that in the mind of many of us the government of Israel is closer to nazism than Hamas is, even if that comparison is obviously not perfect either.
So I don't know, I'm not sure we'd all side with the portrayal of "don't firebomb Dresden". I think to many of us this isn't Dresden, Tel Aviv is. But of course we shouldn't have firebombed Dresden either so there you go.
That's a self-imposed "can't" right!?
All eyes turn to Rafah
Egyptian officials tell a Qatari outlet that the US has accepted Israel’s plan for an operation in the southern Gaza city of Rafah, in return for not carrying out a large strike in Iran in response to Tehran’s unprecedented missile and drone attack.
A US National Security Council spokesperson says the story isn’t true and such a plan has never been discussed.
“The American administration showed acceptance of the plan previously presented by the occupation government regarding the military operation in Rafah, in exchange for not carrying out a large-scale attack against Iran,” an unnamed official tells Al-Araby Al-Jadeed.
The Egyptian officials tells the outlet that preparations are underway so that Egypt can deal with any possible impact of the planned operation...
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has several times claimed to have approved plans for a Rafah operation and more recently said that a date has been decided for the launch.
www.timesofisrael.com
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EPT
