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On May 07 2024 06:05 Kreuger wrote:
Hamas is incredibly bad faith in this, they agree on a proposal that they themself have put forward and Israel havent even seen. They are only playing the optics game and its good that Israel doesnt buy it and instead increases the pressure.
I believe you are the one acting in bad faith because surely you saw my post where the source says this proposal came from Qatar & Egypt. NOT from Hamas. You knew you were wrong when you posted this. Literally every media is reporting that this is NOT Hamas agreeing to their own proposal.
You may not like that what Qatar and Egypt have proposed is not anti-Hamas enough for your taste. But the reality is that they need to broker a deal between Israel AND Hamas.
The problem here is that Israel wants Hamas to hand over all the hostages AND for the fighting to continue. And in return Israel is willing to release some of their hostages. But the point is to agree to a cease fire that's permanent. Then, the hostages come in to adjust the deal. Had there been no hostages, there is not much to negotiate over. Either Israel and Hamas stop attacking each other, or they don't. It is not that Israel is invading to get part of Gaza and Israel wants Hamas to give part of Gaza to them, in return for a cease fire.
So every time when the negotiations are supposed to be about what Israel needs from Hamas to get a permanent case fire, Israel says they want 'a complete elimination of Hamas', of Israel will only agree to a temporary cease fire. That's Israel acting in bad faith.
Sure, you may say this is a propaganda trick to put maximum pressure in Israel. But that is something Israel has to blame on themselves. Israel surely saw the deal Hamas agreed to and they could have accepted or rejected it before Hamas accepted it. They got humongous western support. Both moral and financial. Without hesitation we the west shot 1 billion worth of our missiles to take out the Iranian missiles, to make sure a shed in the desert wasn't destroyed. Compare this to how hesitant the west has been to even give Ukraine a single Patriot Missile battery.
We all did this without even asking anything back from Israel.
And with all this western support for Israel's campaign in Gaza, the result is that 30 000 Gazans are dead. That 1 hostage got freed by the IDF. And that 3 hostages freed themselves, only to be shot by the IDF who thought they were executing unarmed Palestinian civilians.
It is not that part of this deal is that the Palestinians get full statehood, 100% sovereignty, east Jerusalem, and control over most of the West Bank, land swaps to offset those parts of the West Bank they don't get, including dismantling by Israel of several Israeli colonies, some right of return or reparations for not being able to exert this right, and control over most of the West Bank, a corridor that connects West Bank and Gaza, etc. Because that's what a final two-state solution would look like.
All that happens is we go back to preOctober 7th and further towards a one state solution. Including a full siege and blockage of Gaza. Except now half of all buildings are destroyed and 100% of the people are unemployed, rather than just a mere 45%. But it seems Israel will reject even that.
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It came from Hamas through egypt/Qatar.
Its obvious for anyone not looking at this from a pro-hamas stance that this is just a stalling tactic. One that luckily hasnt been successfull.
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On May 07 2024 12:51 Kreuger wrote:
It came from Hamas through egypt/Qatar.
Its obvious for anyone not looking at this from a pro-hamas stance that this is just a stalling tactic. One that luckily hasnt been successfull.
What is so lucky about continued destruction and wholesale slaughter and starvation of civilians, pray tell.
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On May 07 2024 06:32 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2024 06:05 Kreuger wrote:
Hamas is incredibly bad faith in this, they agree on a proposal that they themself have put forward and Israel havent even seen. They are only playing the optics game and its good that Israel doesnt buy it and instead increases the pressure. They also know that Israel is doing most likely irreparable damage to its international image so they have no incentive to offer them a way out, it would be stupid of them. All they have to do is present the option, knowing that Israel will reject it. Israel could of course counter this clever plan by not killing a bunch more people, but that's not really in their gameplay.
The talk of Israel's damaged 'image' or 'reputation' happens only to hide that there are no real consequences to speak of.
If there were actual strategic costs to these actions the Gaza situation would look much different.
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On May 07 2024 06:32 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2024 06:05 Kreuger wrote:
Hamas is incredibly bad faith in this, they agree on a proposal that they themself have put forward and Israel havent even seen. They are only playing the optics game and its good that Israel doesnt buy it and instead increases the pressure. They also know that Israel is doing most likely irreparable damage to its international image so they have no incentive to offer them a way out, it would be stupid of them. All they have to do is present the option, knowing that Israel will reject it. Israel could of course counter this clever plan by not killing a bunch more people, but that's not really in their gameplay.
Do you really mean that it would be stupid by Hamas to offer Israel a way out of the conflict when they can instead wait for the Israelis to kill more Gazans in order to sway international opinion about Israel? It seems to me that you want Israel to care more about the lives of Palestinians than Hamas does.
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On May 07 2024 16:52 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2024 06:32 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2024 06:05 Kreuger wrote:
Hamas is incredibly bad faith in this, they agree on a proposal that they themself have put forward and Israel havent even seen. They are only playing the optics game and its good that Israel doesnt buy it and instead increases the pressure. They also know that Israel is doing most likely irreparable damage to its international image so they have no incentive to offer them a way out, it would be stupid of them. All they have to do is present the option, knowing that Israel will reject it. Israel could of course counter this clever plan by not killing a bunch more people, but that's not really in their gameplay. Do you really mean that it would be stupid by Hamas to offer Israel a way out of the conflict when they can instead wait for the Israelis to kill more Gazans in order to sway international opinion about Israel? It seems to me that you want Israel to care more about the lives of Palestinians than Hamas does.
Hamas is a gang of radical extremists guided by an unpleasant mix of hate and foreign interests. I don't think it's particularly strange to expect a supposedly liberal and tolerant democracy to care more about civilian lives, whatever their creed or color may be.
Do you think that Israel should not care about lives of Palestinian civilians, on the basis of them being... Palestinian?
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On May 07 2024 16:52 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2024 06:32 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2024 06:05 Kreuger wrote:
Hamas is incredibly bad faith in this, they agree on a proposal that they themself have put forward and Israel havent even seen. They are only playing the optics game and its good that Israel doesnt buy it and instead increases the pressure. They also know that Israel is doing most likely irreparable damage to its international image so they have no incentive to offer them a way out, it would be stupid of them. All they have to do is present the option, knowing that Israel will reject it. Israel could of course counter this clever plan by not killing a bunch more people, but that's not really in their gameplay. Do you really mean that it would be stupid by Hamas to offer Israel a way out of the conflict when they can instead wait for the Israelis to kill more Gazans in order to sway international opinion about Israel? It seems to me that you want Israel to care more about the lives of Palestinians than Hamas does.
There's nothing in there about what I want, it's just basic analysis.
You can't describe this situation as offering a way out "of the conflict", it doesn't play. The ceasefire offer there IS a "way out of the conflict". We give you the hostages back and then we get to a ceasefire. That's the thing you said, and Hamas agreed to it. You could accommodate Israel more by giving them more of what they want so that they don't kill more Palestinians like they're threatening to, but of course Hamas isn't going to do this, it would be stupid.
They can just go "ceasefire?", then Israel goes "No we want to kill more Palestinians", and then they proceed and kill more Palestinians. It looks bad. The notion that Hamas would do something else makes no sense.
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On May 07 2024 20:27 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2024 16:52 Elroi wrote:On May 07 2024 06:32 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2024 06:05 Kreuger wrote:
Hamas is incredibly bad faith in this, they agree on a proposal that they themself have put forward and Israel havent even seen. They are only playing the optics game and its good that Israel doesnt buy it and instead increases the pressure. They also know that Israel is doing most likely irreparable damage to its international image so they have no incentive to offer them a way out, it would be stupid of them. All they have to do is present the option, knowing that Israel will reject it. Israel could of course counter this clever plan by not killing a bunch more people, but that's not really in their gameplay. Do you really mean that it would be stupid by Hamas to offer Israel a way out of the conflict when they can instead wait for the Israelis to kill more Gazans in order to sway international opinion about Israel? It seems to me that you want Israel to care more about the lives of Palestinians than Hamas does. There's nothing in there about what I want, it's just basic analysis. You can't describe this situation as offering a way out "of the conflict", it doesn't play. The ceasefire offer there IS a "way out of the conflict". We give you the hostages back and then we get to a ceasefire. That's the thing you said, and Hamas agreed to it. You could accommodate Israel more by giving them more of what they want so that they don't kill more Palestinians like they're threatening to, but of course Hamas isn't going to do this, it would be stupid.
It's basically a stalemate between over-inflated egos. One side has to budge, but for that they'd have to put their ego aside, and that's not going to happen on either side precisey because their egos are so over-inflated. It creates a tug-of-war where neither side can ever let go of their demands because they can safely assume they other side won't do the same in return.
That's why it'd be necessary that people such as Netanyahu get removed from the conflict. He's actively contributing to this battle of egos with his inflammatory statements, constantly fueling the fire. He should instead be trying to look for a peaceful way out for both sides.
And while the exact same thing can be said about Hamas, that's precisely the issue. One side has to signal goodwill first, the goodwill won't just randomly coincide on both sides. Since we know that the Israeli administration is overall less unreasonable compared to Hamas, and since the IDF is many times more powerful than Hamas, we're asking Israel to show goodwill first. This may sound "unfair" to them, but nothing about this conflict is about fairness. It's about what's good. In this conflict fair and good are not the same thing.
Signalling is the key to the end to the conflict. It has to start with signals of goodwill. Netanyahu needs to go, because he's completely unwilling to give the opposition any outs whatsoever despite holding all the cards militarily and politically. His relentless greed fuels the conflict on the Israeli side.
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Besides that you quoted him and didn't respond to or engage with any of the points he made, saying this is about personal ego's is such a poor analysis. This conflict is NOT caused by personalities. No matter which person you put in charge of Israel or Hamas/PLO, the problems remain. There is only one West Bank. There is only one 1967 bordered Israel. And on both sides, the majority or large minority have been out for blood. This is about land. about history. And about grievances. And a little bit about religion.
You probably don't even know who would be the leader of Hamas with the ego problem. For Netanyahu this isn't about ego either. If he loses power, he goes to jail. If he doesn't attack Rafah, Ben Gvir and Smotrich pull their support for his government and it collapses, they need the seats from Yesh At & Yair Lapid to form a majority. Netanyahu could give a rats ass about his ego. And Hamas are even less motivated by ego.
The problem is that Israel is saying they want to eliminate Hamas and they are not backing down from that. You can't have a cease fire with a party while also saying you will continue to try to eliminate them. A cease fire means that Israel will stop trying to eliminate Hamas.
Sure, Netanyahu needs to go. But even more so Smotrich and Ben Gvir need to go. The problem is, it is not so easy for Biden, with European support, to inject himself into Israeli politics and tell them that Benny Gantz will be the new prime minister, Gallant will back him, and that they kick out National Religious Party–Religious Zionism and form a new coalition with Yesh Atid instead. Biden only takes baby steps and is extremely risk-averse. He simply isn't going to do that. For the rules Biden has set up for himself and that he has followed during his 50-year political career, and the current situation in Israeli politics, I don't see how Biden can do this. Even though I think this is the only way forward.
Israeli politics is a literal mine field. Why would either Gallant-Likud or Yesh Atid-Yair Lapid back Gantz?
Biden did draw a red line. And Israel crossed it. This after Obama famously drew a red line for Assad, Assad crossed it, and Obama did nothing. Surely the White House had a plan about what to do when Netanyahu crossed Biden's red line. It may be that Biden publicly still says he 100% supports Israel, but that the US will no longer send the bombs that Israel is now dropping on Rafah, while still supplying stuff like Iron Dome missiles.
A cease fire means that Israel and Hamas stop trying to kill each other. That's the deal that needs to be discussed. Otherwise 30 000 more Palestinians will die. The hostages that each side have is just a modification of that main cease fire deal. But Israel keeps rejecting the core part, the permanent cease fire.
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On May 07 2024 20:27 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2024 16:52 Elroi wrote:On May 07 2024 06:32 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2024 06:05 Kreuger wrote:
Hamas is incredibly bad faith in this, they agree on a proposal that they themself have put forward and Israel havent even seen. They are only playing the optics game and its good that Israel doesnt buy it and instead increases the pressure. They also know that Israel is doing most likely irreparable damage to its international image so they have no incentive to offer them a way out, it would be stupid of them. All they have to do is present the option, knowing that Israel will reject it. Israel could of course counter this clever plan by not killing a bunch more people, but that's not really in their gameplay. Do you really mean that it would be stupid by Hamas to offer Israel a way out of the conflict when they can instead wait for the Israelis to kill more Gazans in order to sway international opinion about Israel? It seems to me that you want Israel to care more about the lives of Palestinians than Hamas does. There's nothing in there about what I want, it's just basic analysis. You can't describe this situation as offering a way out "of the conflict", it doesn't play. The ceasefire offer there IS a "way out of the conflict". We give you the hostages back and then we get to a ceasefire. That's the thing you said, and Hamas agreed to it. You could accommodate Israel more by giving them more of what they want so that they don't kill more Palestinians like they're threatening to, but of course Hamas isn't going to do this, it would be stupid. They can just go "ceasefire?", then Israel goes "No we want to kill more Palestinians", and then they proceed and kill more Palestinians. It looks bad. The notion that Hamas would do something else makes no sense.
You wrote that Hamas has no "incentive" to stop the killing because it's ruining Israel's reputation:
They [Hamas] also know that Israel is doing most likely irreparable damage to its international image so they have no incentive to offer them a way out, it would be stupid of them.
But maybe that's not what you meant to write. I do however think that Hamas could end the conflict immediately. They would have to give up the hostages in exchange for a free passage for themselves to Qatar or some other friendly country. But that would require them to care at all about the lives of their own population, which they don't. Israel, however, won't stop this campaign until Hamas is gone as the governing body of Gaza after their attack on Oct. 7th.
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On May 08 2024 04:45 Menkent wrote:
Besides that you quoted him and didn't respond to or engage with any of the points he made, saying this is about personal ego's is such a poor analysis. This conflict is NOT caused by personalities. No matter which person you put in charge of Israel or Hamas/PLO, the problems remain. There is only one West Bank. There is only one 1967 bordered Israel. And on both sides, the majority or large minority have been out for blood. This is about land. about history. And about grievances. And a little bit about religion.
You probably don't even know who would be the leader of Hamas with the ego problem. For Netanyahu this isn't about ego either. If he loses power, he goes to jail. If he doesn't attack Rafah, Ben Gvir and Smotrich pull their support for his government and it collapses, they need the seats from Yesh At & Yair Lapid to form a majority. Netanyahu could give a rats ass about his ego. And Hamas are even less motivated by ego.
The problem is that Israel is saying they want to eliminate Hamas and they are not backing down from that. You can't have a cease fire with a party while also saying you will continue to try to eliminate them. A cease fire means that Israel will stop trying to eliminate Hamas.
Sure, Netanyahu needs to go. But even more so Smotrich and Ben Gvir need to go. The problem is, it is not so easy for Biden, with European support, to inject himself into Israeli politics and tell them that Benny Gantz will be the new prime minister, Gallant will back him, and that they kick out National Religious Party–Religious Zionism and form a new coalition with Yesh Atid instead. Biden only takes baby steps and is extremely risk-averse. He simply isn't going to do that. For the rules Biden has set up for himself and that he has followed during his 50-year political career, and the current situation in Israeli politics, I don't see how Biden can do this. Even though I think this is the only way forward.
Israeli politics is a literal mine field. Why would either Gallant-Likud or Yesh Atid-Yair Lapid back Gantz?
Biden did draw a red line. And Israel crossed it. This after Obama famously drew a red line for Assad, Assad crossed it, and Obama did nothing. Surely the White House had a plan about what to do when Netanyahu crossed Biden's red line. It may be that Biden publicly still says he 100% supports Israel, but that the US will no longer send the bombs that Israel is now dropping on Rafah, while still supplying stuff like Iron Dome missiles.
A cease fire means that Israel and Hamas stop trying to kill each other. That's the deal that needs to be discussed. Otherwise 30 000 more Palestinians will die. The hostages that each side have is just a modification of that main cease fire deal. But Israel keeps rejecting the core part, the permanent cease fire.
Netanyahu and Hamas put their personal freedom and power about the lives of millions of people. If that's not their ego dictating their actions then I don't know what is.
This whole "land, religion, history" is all bluster. They could all have land, religion and history without putting their own petty hatred above the well-being of so many people. Every single one of these warmongers and criminals on both sides are entirely driven by their personal greed.
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On May 08 2024 05:16 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2024 20:27 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2024 16:52 Elroi wrote:On May 07 2024 06:32 Nebuchad wrote:On May 07 2024 06:05 Kreuger wrote:
Hamas is incredibly bad faith in this, they agree on a proposal that they themself have put forward and Israel havent even seen. They are only playing the optics game and its good that Israel doesnt buy it and instead increases the pressure. They also know that Israel is doing most likely irreparable damage to its international image so they have no incentive to offer them a way out, it would be stupid of them. All they have to do is present the option, knowing that Israel will reject it. Israel could of course counter this clever plan by not killing a bunch more people, but that's not really in their gameplay. Do you really mean that it would be stupid by Hamas to offer Israel a way out of the conflict when they can instead wait for the Israelis to kill more Gazans in order to sway international opinion about Israel? It seems to me that you want Israel to care more about the lives of Palestinians than Hamas does. There's nothing in there about what I want, it's just basic analysis. You can't describe this situation as offering a way out "of the conflict", it doesn't play. The ceasefire offer there IS a "way out of the conflict". We give you the hostages back and then we get to a ceasefire. That's the thing you said, and Hamas agreed to it. You could accommodate Israel more by giving them more of what they want so that they don't kill more Palestinians like they're threatening to, but of course Hamas isn't going to do this, it would be stupid. They can just go "ceasefire?", then Israel goes "No we want to kill more Palestinians", and then they proceed and kill more Palestinians. It looks bad. The notion that Hamas would do something else makes no sense. You wrote that Hamas has no "incentive" to stop the killing because it's ruining Israel's reputation: Show nested quote +They [Hamas] also know that Israel is doing most likely irreparable damage to its international image so they have no incentive to offer them a way out, it would be stupid of them. But maybe that's not what you meant to write. I do however think that Hamas could end the conflict immediately. They would have to give up the hostages in exchange for a free passage for themselves to Qatar or some other friendly country. But that would require them to care at all about the lives of their own population, which they don't. Israel, however, won't stop this campaign until Hamas is gone as the governing body of Gaza after their attack on Oct. 7th.
Israel obviously wouldn't go for that, but again why would Hamas accept this they have no incentive to, they can just let Israel continue to hang themselves like they're doing.
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I still think this is a strange way of putting it. I guess it is "logical" for Hamas to let this continue, if they absolutely don't give a shit about their own population. If you are a fanatical murder cult it makes sense to try to weaken Israel that way.
Don't you think Israel would take the deal I laid out? If Hamas tried to make that deal and Israel didn't take it the international pressure on Israel would become incomparably bigger. As it stands now, I think a very big part of the international community thinks Israel has the right to continue this campaign.
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On May 08 2024 05:41 Elroi wrote:
I still think this is a strange way of putting it. I guess it is "logical" for Hamas to let this continue, if they absolutely don't give a shit about their own population. If you are a fanatical murder cult it makes sense to try to weaken Israel that way.
Don't you think Israel would take the deal I laid out? If Hamas tried to make that deal and Israel didn't take it the international pressure on Israel would become incomparably bigger. As it stands now, I think a very big part of the international community thinks Israel has the right to continue this campaign.
You have to consider what the ceasefire amounts to from a palestinian perspective. It goes back to the situation before Oct 7th, a situation where they're occupied, their land is slowly taken away from them, hundreds of them are killed by the occupation force every year, and seemingly no one cares...
Is it worse to be massacred? Yeah probably in a material sense it is, but people put a lot of value in freedom, many people in history have died for freedom and many will continue to most likely. So there's already a functioning rationale there before we even start to consider all of the far right theocratic elements of Hamas, and those are also real and important, we know that the far right in general doesn't really value human life.
I don't think Israel would take that deal, they would say that if Hamas is allowed to escape to Qatar they could continue plotting against Israel from there, Hamas has to be destroyed. Netanyahu has no incentive to stop fighting either, if Hamas came up with a deal that there was no reasonable way of refusing, like every high ranking Hamas member surrenders to Israel or something silly like that, the large majority of the Israeli government would be disappointed because that means they don't get to murder more people.
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Israel would happily accept the deal Elroi laid out (and the war would be over that day). The primary goal of the war is to remove Hamas as the organization in control of Gaza. If Hamas has a few leaders alive in exile, those guys are as powerless as the exiled Shah is over Iranian policy (and can't pull another Oct 7 in a year like might otherwise happen).
Meanwhile, Israel is talking to various Arab and European countries on the day after plan, and, at least in theory, it sounds a lot better for the average Gazan than the past two decades of Hamas rule. Feel free to check it out and decide if you disagree. Outline of Israel's plan for Gaza's future
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On May 08 2024 07:52 Cerebrate1 wrote:Israel would happily accept the deal Elroi laid out (and the war would be over that day). The primary goal of the war is to remove Hamas as the organization in control of Gaza. If Hamas has a few leaders alive in exile, those guys are as powerless as the exiled Shah is over Iranian policy (and can't pull another Oct 7 in a year like might otherwise happen). Meanwhile, Israel is talking to various Arab and European countries on the day after plan, and, at least in theory, it sounds a lot better for the average Gazan than the past two decades of Hamas rule. Feel free to check it out and decide if you disagree. Outline of Netanyahu's plan for Gaza's future
Sounds amazing! I like the futurist buildings 
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call me a sceptic. i can totally See how the Same Nation that is okay with bombing a civilian for each Terrorist is funneling Billions into the rebuilding of a rival Infrastructure so that it looses out on revenue and prosperity. i can totally See my own countries fringe right Rally against that plan of IT would involve rebuilding, like the netherlands, from a horrific Tsunami insteadof spending IT on german grannies. you know, Israel could just get me to believe in that Plan if they were executing IT now with the West Bank. nö Hamas there, but somehow Netanjahu is Not offering the Same to them....
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Biden signalling withholding offensive military aid if Israel goes through with Rafah offensive.
“I made it clear that if they go into Rafah..., I’m not supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with Rafah, to deal with the cities – that deal with that problem,” Biden said in an interview with CNN.
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“We’re going to continue to make sure Israel is secure in terms of Iron Dome and their ability to respond to attacks that came out of the Middle East recently,” he said. “But it’s, it’s just wrong. We’re not going to – we’re not going to supply the weapons and artillery shells.”
https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-says-bombs-us-has-paused-sending-israel-have-killed-civilians-2024-05-08/
Shipments of some promised deliveries have already been paused.
"Washington paused one shipment consisting of 1,800 2,000-pound (907-kg) bombs and 1,700 500-pound bombs, according to U.S. officials."
https://www.reuters.com/world/why-us-is-stopping-some-bomb-shipments-israel-2024-05-08/
I get the impression the Biden administration is testing Israel's response before making a decision over halting bigger shipments. Just my two cents.
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On May 08 2024 17:16 Broetchenholer wrote:
call me a sceptic. i can totally See how the Same Nation that is okay with bombing a civilian for each Terrorist is funneling Billions into the rebuilding of a rival Infrastructure so that it looses out on revenue and prosperity. i can totally See my own countries fringe right Rally against that plan of IT would involve rebuilding, like the netherlands, from a horrific Tsunami insteadof spending IT on german grannies. you know, Israel could just get me to believe in that Plan if they were executing IT now with the West Bank. nö Hamas there, but somehow Netanjahu is Not offering the Same to them....
As much as it's a good long term solution for all involved (except Iran et al), it is a massive and involved project that no one would undertake lightly. It's basically modeled after the Marshall Plan that was instituted in Germany after WW2.
It would be quite expensive, and Israel doesn't have as deep pockets as the US, so it will require foreign investment.
Also, the point is to remove the current government and slowly replace it with something better while deradicalization of the populace takes place. The PA is actually quite comfortable with the status quo and wouldn't want that, nor are they currently a big enough threat to force it upon them.
There are pitfalls to the plan in that multiple parties have to be committed to making it happen for it to be successful. But working this into the Saudi Arabia deal might give this a real chance.
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The main pit fall seems to be that Israel is doing absolutely everything in their power to make every single Palestinian absolutely hate their guts...
I seriously dont understand this hyper fixation on Hamas...
In the greater picture they are entirely irrelevant. They are just a vehicle for those hating Israel. If you magically remove Hamas entirely, and a new vehicle would be found/formed as long as there is a demand for it.
And every action taken by Israel in this conflict seems to aim at increasing this demand. Basically another 1-2 generations of Palestinians will hate Israel with fiery passion... so Hamas or whoever will replace them has enough fuel for another 2 decades of attacks on Israel.
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EPT
