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On December 29 2023 03:00 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 01:59 Acrofales wrote:On December 29 2023 01:33 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:36 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:25 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:15 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 19:36 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 11:35 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 10:46 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Yes, I'm focusing on the totality of Hamas members, not just their leaders. I think Hamas has a solid belief structure that doesn't require any specific figure at the top. The leaders are interchangeable because they all share their hatred for Israel. Their anger is very targeted, and a different leader could easily channel that anger in the same direction because it's so authentic. This is also part of why I don't believe Hamas can be destroyed militarily.
Furthermore, hatred is not antithetical to righteousness. Even cruelty can be a result of zealotry from an extreme sense of justice, especially when coupled with hopelessness. There's a reason why the most feared man is the one with nothing to lose. I believe that most Hamas members feel righteous and that is what drives their hatred. They have the motivation to work every day and night on vast tunnel systems for several years. Theyre fanatic. They believe they're in a war against evil. This is what gets them out of bed every morning, otherwise they wouldn't be able to do all of this for such a long time.
It's easy for us to say that their understanding of freedom and justice is warped, but if we were born in Gaza we'd likely have a different understanding of these words. Israel is a democratic country. Well then how do you explain to people in Gaza that democracy is not responsible for the oppression of Palestinians? If the Israeli people are electing an oppressive regime, then how can they not be considered evil? It's a simplistic understanding of democracy, but hard to argue with when you're the one who's oppressed. You might have a point if Hamas was fighting against the Israeli military and government. Once you purposefully murder infants, gang rape, torture and so on, you lose all credibility. That goes for all who ordered it, planned and trained for it, participated (implicitly as well) and celebrated it. Which is basically your entire Hamas organization. Stop trying to justify the unjustifiable, you can criticize Isreal without doing it and you lose all credibility when you do. No one should be apologetic or trying to justify what they have done, what they are about , or who they are. As I explained, Hamas believe that the Israeli military and government is a direct result of the Israeli population. One leads to the other. That is how Hamas justifies mass slaughtering innocent civilians. It's not a very difficult logic to grasp, and you should really have noticed by now that it's not my logic, it's theirs. Hamas is using this logic. They think it's justified to kill the Jews because they think that Jews create oppression. Their views would be much easier to argue against if the State of Israel (not the Jewish people) didn't oppress Palestinians. But it does, and it has done so for many decades. As a democratic country, the people of Israel share some responsibility for the actions of its government. The way Hamas sees it, Jews don't just share responsibility, they have all the responsibility. And that would make all Jewish people evil in Hamas' eyes. You are not casting the net wide enough. They believe everyone who does not believe their version of their religion should die. Not just Jews or even just Israelis. I don't see how that makes a difference to the point. Hamas are only evil from our perspective, not from their own. And as long as Israel is oppressing Palestinians, they have that one very valid point which they can keep using to feed their views and garner support. The fact that Hamas are supremacists beyond just the Palestine region and beyond just the Jewish people changes very little about these points. Nazi's are only evil from our perspective, not their own. Either you are making a grass is green point or no point at all. Nazis never had an oppressor. Palestinians do. This is why Hamas has a much more legit reason than the Nazis did to garner support. Hamas is also an oppressor, not a liberator. Plenty of Palestinians (and other Arabs) believe they are freedom fighters. That they want a different Palestinian society than you or I think is free or just has little to do with the idea that Palestina is being oppressed by Israel and Hamas are fighting Israel. I think Hamas ruling Palestina will be disastrous for the Palestinians. But lots of *them* don't... I agree that there are individual Hamas fighters who believe they are freedom fighters. I also believe there are IDF soldiers who are fighting to protect their friends and family.
I believe most IDF soldiers are fighting not to protect their friends and family, but to destroy Gaza.
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On December 29 2023 03:03 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 03:00 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 01:59 Acrofales wrote:On December 29 2023 01:33 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:36 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:25 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:15 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 19:36 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 11:35 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
You might have a point if Hamas was fighting against the Israeli military and government. Once you purposefully murder infants, gang rape, torture and so on, you lose all credibility. That goes for all who ordered it, planned and trained for it, participated (implicitly as well) and celebrated it. Which is basically your entire Hamas organization.
Stop trying to justify the unjustifiable, you can criticize Isreal without doing it and you lose all credibility when you do. No one should be apologetic or trying to justify what they have done, what they are about , or who they are. As I explained, Hamas believe that the Israeli military and government is a direct result of the Israeli population. One leads to the other. That is how Hamas justifies mass slaughtering innocent civilians. It's not a very difficult logic to grasp, and you should really have noticed by now that it's not my logic, it's theirs. Hamas is using this logic. They think it's justified to kill the Jews because they think that Jews create oppression. Their views would be much easier to argue against if the State of Israel (not the Jewish people) didn't oppress Palestinians. But it does, and it has done so for many decades. As a democratic country, the people of Israel share some responsibility for the actions of its government. The way Hamas sees it, Jews don't just share responsibility, they have all the responsibility. And that would make all Jewish people evil in Hamas' eyes. You are not casting the net wide enough. They believe everyone who does not believe their version of their religion should die. Not just Jews or even just Israelis. I don't see how that makes a difference to the point. Hamas are only evil from our perspective, not from their own. And as long as Israel is oppressing Palestinians, they have that one very valid point which they can keep using to feed their views and garner support. The fact that Hamas are supremacists beyond just the Palestine region and beyond just the Jewish people changes very little about these points. Nazi's are only evil from our perspective, not their own. Either you are making a grass is green point or no point at all. Nazis never had an oppressor. Palestinians do. This is why Hamas has a much more legit reason than the Nazis did to garner support. Hamas is also an oppressor, not a liberator. Plenty of Palestinians (and other Arabs) believe they are freedom fighters. That they want a different Palestinian society than you or I think is free or just has little to do with the idea that Palestina is being oppressed by Israel and Hamas are fighting Israel. I think Hamas ruling Palestina will be disastrous for the Palestinians. But lots of *them* don't... I agree that there are individual Hamas fighters who believe they are freedom fighters. I also believe there are IDF soldiers who are fighting to protect their friends and family. I believe most IDF soldiers are fighting not to protect their friends and family, but to destroy Gaza.
Well yes, there is serious radicalization happening in Israel, which is why removing Bibi by itself won't actually do much.
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On December 29 2023 03:07 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 02:52 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 01:33 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:36 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:25 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:15 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 19:36 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 11:35 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 10:46 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Yes, I'm focusing on the totality of Hamas members, not just their leaders. I think Hamas has a solid belief structure that doesn't require any specific figure at the top. The leaders are interchangeable because they all share their hatred for Israel. Their anger is very targeted, and a different leader could easily channel that anger in the same direction because it's so authentic. This is also part of why I don't believe Hamas can be destroyed militarily.
Furthermore, hatred is not antithetical to righteousness. Even cruelty can be a result of zealotry from an extreme sense of justice, especially when coupled with hopelessness. There's a reason why the most feared man is the one with nothing to lose. I believe that most Hamas members feel righteous and that is what drives their hatred. They have the motivation to work every day and night on vast tunnel systems for several years. Theyre fanatic. They believe they're in a war against evil. This is what gets them out of bed every morning, otherwise they wouldn't be able to do all of this for such a long time.
It's easy for us to say that their understanding of freedom and justice is warped, but if we were born in Gaza we'd likely have a different understanding of these words. Israel is a democratic country. Well then how do you explain to people in Gaza that democracy is not responsible for the oppression of Palestinians? If the Israeli people are electing an oppressive regime, then how can they not be considered evil? It's a simplistic understanding of democracy, but hard to argue with when you're the one who's oppressed. You might have a point if Hamas was fighting against the Israeli military and government. Once you purposefully murder infants, gang rape, torture and so on, you lose all credibility. That goes for all who ordered it, planned and trained for it, participated (implicitly as well) and celebrated it. Which is basically your entire Hamas organization. Stop trying to justify the unjustifiable, you can criticize Isreal without doing it and you lose all credibility when you do. No one should be apologetic or trying to justify what they have done, what they are about , or who they are. As I explained, Hamas believe that the Israeli military and government is a direct result of the Israeli population. One leads to the other. That is how Hamas justifies mass slaughtering innocent civilians. It's not a very difficult logic to grasp, and you should really have noticed by now that it's not my logic, it's theirs. Hamas is using this logic. They think it's justified to kill the Jews because they think that Jews create oppression. Their views would be much easier to argue against if the State of Israel (not the Jewish people) didn't oppress Palestinians. But it does, and it has done so for many decades. As a democratic country, the people of Israel share some responsibility for the actions of its government. The way Hamas sees it, Jews don't just share responsibility, they have all the responsibility. And that would make all Jewish people evil in Hamas' eyes. You are not casting the net wide enough. They believe everyone who does not believe their version of their religion should die. Not just Jews or even just Israelis. I don't see how that makes a difference to the point. Hamas are only evil from our perspective, not from their own. And as long as Israel is oppressing Palestinians, they have that one very valid point which they can keep using to feed their views and garner support. The fact that Hamas are supremacists beyond just the Palestine region and beyond just the Jewish people changes very little about these points. Nazi's are only evil from our perspective, not their own. Either you are making a grass is green point or no point at all. Nazis never had an oppressor. Palestinians do. This is why Hamas has a much more legit reason than the Nazis did to garner support. Hamas is also an oppressor, not a liberator. Edit: their clear priority is the destruction and removal of Israel. They not only were willing but their plan revolved around slaughtering, raping and torturing as many innocents in Israel as possible to provoke a attack where they could use their human shield strategy and maximize as many innocent Palestinians to die as well. Their leadership puts ZERO value on the Palestinians, they know we value all human rights and are using their deaths. Your position could easily be swapped to justify the ultra orthodox Jewish position of settlement and removal of Palestinians. If you can’t apply and agree with you argument in both directions than it’s not a good argument. It would be better for the Palestinians if Hamas did not exist. Hamas are factually fighting against an oppressor, you cannot deny that. It's absurd that you keep deflecting from that fact. You want to justify unjustifiable acts. Hamas are factually oppressing the Palestinians and are fighting to be their only oppressors. The IDF is also fighting oppressors. The biggest issue is both sides see the lives of innocent Palestinians as expendable. Hamas even more so as they actively targeted infants and actively gang raped women of every age. Whereas the IDF is callously treating the Palestinians (and in some cases journalists and their own hostages)as acceptable collateral damage. I also do not give Hitler and his Nazis any credit for fighting Stalin who objectively was oppressing his people. Hitlers intentions for the oppressed were just as evil if not worse, much like Hamas’s.
I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me.
And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that.
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On December 28 2023 17:20 Cerebrate1 wrote:
[intro]
Thanks for taking the time 
Although I notice that there is an issue with some of what you brought up:
On December 28 2023 17:20 Cerebrate1 wrote:
-Security checkpoints. I've explained in depth already why Israelis see them as necessary, but I also understand how Palestinians would oppose them.
-Self determination. I've mentioned that this is, in my opinion, the most reasonable (and not hyperbolic for the sake of emotional appeal) concern about settlements. They reduce the profile of a future Palestinian state.
Both of these are things that are problematic about the occupation of Palestine in general, not about the settlements in particular, so they don't really have a ton of explaining power when it comes to the lack of rainbows.
The only thing that we are left with is this:
On December 28 2023 17:20 Cerebrate1 wrote:
-Someone else mentioned that we sometimes end up with a situation where Israelis with the most extreme views are the ones living in closest proximity to Palestinians. I don't think I commented on that because I felt it was a fairly straightforward point, but I agree that that can lead to problems.
I certainly feel that this is true, and is one of the problems with the settlements. But I have to wonder, why do these people with extreme views decide that they want to go and live there? In my understanding of the situation, it makes a ton of sense: because their extremism is based on hatred of Palestinians and a willingness to have the land of Palestine belong to Israel, I can see how settling on Palestinian territory, chasing them off with force and taking their land, would be a logical step in that direction. But with your premise that we're just taking some uninhabited land with no violence, I don't see a clear connexion between that and having extreme views. So, what gives?
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On December 29 2023 03:45 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 03:36 Nebuchad wrote:On December 28 2023 17:20 Cerebrate1 wrote:
[intro]
Thanks for taking the time Although I notice that there is an issue with some of what you brought up: On December 28 2023 17:20 Cerebrate1 wrote:
-Security checkpoints. I've explained in depth already why Israelis see them as necessary, but I also understand how Palestinians would oppose them.
-Self determination. I've mentioned that this is, in my opinion, the most reasonable (and not hyperbolic for the sake of emotional appeal) concern about settlements. They reduce the profile of a future Palestinian state.
Both of these are things that are problematic about the occupation of Palestine in general, not about the settlements in particular, so they don't really have a ton of explaining power when it comes to the lack of rainbows. The only thing that we are left with is this: On December 28 2023 17:20 Cerebrate1 wrote:
-Someone else mentioned that we sometimes end up with a situation where Israelis with the most extreme views are the ones living in closest proximity to Palestinians. I don't think I commented on that because I felt it was a fairly straightforward point, but I agree that that can lead to problems. I certainly feel that this is true, and is one of the problems with the settlements. But I have to wonder, why do these people with extreme views decide that they want to go and live there? In my understanding of the situation, it makes a ton of sense: because their extremism is based on hatred of Palestinians and a willingness to have the land of Palestine belong to Israel, I can see how settling on Palestinian territory, chasing them off with force and taking their land, would be a logical step in that direction. But with your premise that we're just taking some uninhabited land with no violence, I don't see a clear connexion between that and having extreme views. So, what gives? Earlier he explained that the land is cheaper so you get much more bang for your buck. There can be multiple reasons.
Look at his quote that I'm responding to: "-Someone else mentioned that we sometimes end up with a situation where Israelis with the most extreme views are the ones living in closest proximity to Palestinians. I don't think I commented on that because I felt it was a fairly straightforward point, but I agree that that can lead to problems."
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On December 29 2023 03:07 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 02:52 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 01:33 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:36 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:25 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:15 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 19:36 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 11:35 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 10:46 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Yes, I'm focusing on the totality of Hamas members, not just their leaders. I think Hamas has a solid belief structure that doesn't require any specific figure at the top. The leaders are interchangeable because they all share their hatred for Israel. Their anger is very targeted, and a different leader could easily channel that anger in the same direction because it's so authentic. This is also part of why I don't believe Hamas can be destroyed militarily.
Furthermore, hatred is not antithetical to righteousness. Even cruelty can be a result of zealotry from an extreme sense of justice, especially when coupled with hopelessness. There's a reason why the most feared man is the one with nothing to lose. I believe that most Hamas members feel righteous and that is what drives their hatred. They have the motivation to work every day and night on vast tunnel systems for several years. Theyre fanatic. They believe they're in a war against evil. This is what gets them out of bed every morning, otherwise they wouldn't be able to do all of this for such a long time.
It's easy for us to say that their understanding of freedom and justice is warped, but if we were born in Gaza we'd likely have a different understanding of these words. Israel is a democratic country. Well then how do you explain to people in Gaza that democracy is not responsible for the oppression of Palestinians? If the Israeli people are electing an oppressive regime, then how can they not be considered evil? It's a simplistic understanding of democracy, but hard to argue with when you're the one who's oppressed. You might have a point if Hamas was fighting against the Israeli military and government. Once you purposefully murder infants, gang rape, torture and so on, you lose all credibility. That goes for all who ordered it, planned and trained for it, participated (implicitly as well) and celebrated it. Which is basically your entire Hamas organization. Stop trying to justify the unjustifiable, you can criticize Isreal without doing it and you lose all credibility when you do. No one should be apologetic or trying to justify what they have done, what they are about , or who they are. As I explained, Hamas believe that the Israeli military and government is a direct result of the Israeli population. One leads to the other. That is how Hamas justifies mass slaughtering innocent civilians. It's not a very difficult logic to grasp, and you should really have noticed by now that it's not my logic, it's theirs. Hamas is using this logic. They think it's justified to kill the Jews because they think that Jews create oppression. Their views would be much easier to argue against if the State of Israel (not the Jewish people) didn't oppress Palestinians. But it does, and it has done so for many decades. As a democratic country, the people of Israel share some responsibility for the actions of its government. The way Hamas sees it, Jews don't just share responsibility, they have all the responsibility. And that would make all Jewish people evil in Hamas' eyes. You are not casting the net wide enough. They believe everyone who does not believe their version of their religion should die. Not just Jews or even just Israelis. I don't see how that makes a difference to the point. Hamas are only evil from our perspective, not from their own. And as long as Israel is oppressing Palestinians, they have that one very valid point which they can keep using to feed their views and garner support. The fact that Hamas are supremacists beyond just the Palestine region and beyond just the Jewish people changes very little about these points. Nazi's are only evil from our perspective, not their own. Either you are making a grass is green point or no point at all. Nazis never had an oppressor. Palestinians do. This is why Hamas has a much more legit reason than the Nazis did to garner support. Hamas is also an oppressor, not a liberator. Edit: their clear priority is the destruction and removal of Israel. They not only were willing but their plan revolved around slaughtering, raping and torturing as many innocents in Israel as possible to provoke a attack where they could use their human shield strategy and maximize as many innocent Palestinians to die as well. Their leadership puts ZERO value on the Palestinians, they know we value all human rights and are using their deaths. Your position could easily be swapped to justify the ultra orthodox Jewish position of settlement and removal of Palestinians. If you can’t apply and agree with you argument in both directions than it’s not a good argument. It would be better for the Palestinians if Hamas did not exist. Hamas are factually fighting against an oppressor, you cannot deny that. It's absurd that you keep deflecting from that fact. You want to justify unjustifiable acts. Hamas are factually oppressing the Palestinians and are fighting to be their only oppressors. The IDF is also fighting oppressors. The biggest issue is both sides see the lives of innocent Palestinians as expendable. Hamas even more so as they actively targeted infants and actively gang raped women of every age. Whereas the IDF is callously treating the Palestinians (and in some cases journalists and their own hostages)as acceptable collateral damage. I also do not give Hitler and his Nazis any credit for fighting Stalin who objectively was oppressing his people. Hitlers intentions for the oppressed were just as evil if not worse, much like Hamas’s.
While I appreciate this being pointed out to lay bare in an extremely clear manner the demons we're talking about here, stating it of one faction and not the other who also participate is such acts does lead to problematic implications.
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On December 29 2023 04:44 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 03:07 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 02:52 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 01:33 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:36 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:25 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:15 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 19:36 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
As I explained, Hamas believe that the Israeli military and government is a direct result of the Israeli population. One leads to the other. That is how Hamas justifies mass slaughtering innocent civilians. It's not a very difficult logic to grasp, and you should really have noticed by now that it's not my logic, it's theirs. Hamas is using this logic. They think it's justified to kill the Jews because they think that Jews create oppression. Their views would be much easier to argue against if the State of Israel (not the Jewish people) didn't oppress Palestinians. But it does, and it has done so for many decades. As a democratic country, the people of Israel share some responsibility for the actions of its government. The way Hamas sees it, Jews don't just share responsibility, they have all the responsibility. And that would make all Jewish people evil in Hamas' eyes. You are not casting the net wide enough. They believe everyone who does not believe their version of their religion should die. Not just Jews or even just Israelis. I don't see how that makes a difference to the point. Hamas are only evil from our perspective, not from their own. And as long as Israel is oppressing Palestinians, they have that one very valid point which they can keep using to feed their views and garner support. The fact that Hamas are supremacists beyond just the Palestine region and beyond just the Jewish people changes very little about these points. Nazi's are only evil from our perspective, not their own. Either you are making a grass is green point or no point at all. Nazis never had an oppressor. Palestinians do. This is why Hamas has a much more legit reason than the Nazis did to garner support. Hamas is also an oppressor, not a liberator. Edit: their clear priority is the destruction and removal of Israel. They not only were willing but their plan revolved around slaughtering, raping and torturing as many innocents in Israel as possible to provoke a attack where they could use their human shield strategy and maximize as many innocent Palestinians to die as well. Their leadership puts ZERO value on the Palestinians, they know we value all human rights and are using their deaths. Your position could easily be swapped to justify the ultra orthodox Jewish position of settlement and removal of Palestinians. If you can’t apply and agree with you argument in both directions than it’s not a good argument. It would be better for the Palestinians if Hamas did not exist. Hamas are factually fighting against an oppressor, you cannot deny that. It's absurd that you keep deflecting from that fact. You want to justify unjustifiable acts. Hamas are factually oppressing the Palestinians and are fighting to be their only oppressors. The IDF is also fighting oppressors. The biggest issue is both sides see the lives of innocent Palestinians as expendable. Hamas even more so as they actively targeted infants and actively gang raped women of every age. Whereas the IDF is callously treating the Palestinians (and in some cases journalists and their own hostages)as acceptable collateral damage. I also do not give Hitler and his Nazis any credit for fighting Stalin who objectively was oppressing his people. Hitlers intentions for the oppressed were just as evil if not worse, much like Hamas’s. I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me. And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. You are mistaken, Hamas are oppressors. I’m not suggesting they are oppressing Israel, even if they had the power they would not, they would commit genocide against every man, women and child and not just the Jews. They are oppressing the Palestinians.
The fact that Hamas wants to rule with Sharia Law has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas are fighting against an oppressive force.
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On December 29 2023 04:46 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 03:54 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 29 2023 03:07 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 02:52 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 01:33 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:36 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:25 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:15 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 19:36 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
As I explained, Hamas believe that the Israeli military and government is a direct result of the Israeli population. One leads to the other. That is how Hamas justifies mass slaughtering innocent civilians. It's not a very difficult logic to grasp, and you should really have noticed by now that it's not my logic, it's theirs. Hamas is using this logic. They think it's justified to kill the Jews because they think that Jews create oppression. Their views would be much easier to argue against if the State of Israel (not the Jewish people) didn't oppress Palestinians. But it does, and it has done so for many decades. As a democratic country, the people of Israel share some responsibility for the actions of its government. The way Hamas sees it, Jews don't just share responsibility, they have all the responsibility. And that would make all Jewish people evil in Hamas' eyes. You are not casting the net wide enough. They believe everyone who does not believe their version of their religion should die. Not just Jews or even just Israelis. I don't see how that makes a difference to the point. Hamas are only evil from our perspective, not from their own. And as long as Israel is oppressing Palestinians, they have that one very valid point which they can keep using to feed their views and garner support. The fact that Hamas are supremacists beyond just the Palestine region and beyond just the Jewish people changes very little about these points. Nazi's are only evil from our perspective, not their own. Either you are making a grass is green point or no point at all. Nazis never had an oppressor. Palestinians do. This is why Hamas has a much more legit reason than the Nazis did to garner support. Hamas is also an oppressor, not a liberator. Edit: their clear priority is the destruction and removal of Israel. They not only were willing but their plan revolved around slaughtering, raping and torturing as many innocents in Israel as possible to provoke a attack where they could use their human shield strategy and maximize as many innocent Palestinians to die as well. Their leadership puts ZERO value on the Palestinians, they know we value all human rights and are using their deaths. Your position could easily be swapped to justify the ultra orthodox Jewish position of settlement and removal of Palestinians. If you can’t apply and agree with you argument in both directions than it’s not a good argument. It would be better for the Palestinians if Hamas did not exist. Hamas are factually fighting against an oppressor, you cannot deny that. It's absurd that you keep deflecting from that fact. You want to justify unjustifiable acts. Hamas are factually oppressing the Palestinians and are fighting to be their only oppressors. The IDF is also fighting oppressors. The biggest issue is both sides see the lives of innocent Palestinians as expendable. Hamas even more so as they actively targeted infants and actively gang raped women of every age. Whereas the IDF is callously treating the Palestinians (and in some cases journalists and their own hostages)as acceptable collateral damage. I also do not give Hitler and his Nazis any credit for fighting Stalin who objectively was oppressing his people. Hitlers intentions for the oppressed were just as evil if not worse, much like Hamas’s. While I appreciate this being pointed out to lay bare in an extremely clear manner the demons we're talking about here, stating it of one faction and not the other who also participate is such acts does lead to problematic implications. I stated what Israel is doing in the next sentence.
You're intelligent enough to know the power of language. Outright stating "targetted infants and actively gang raped women" provides a completely different gut punch than "callously treating". It's no different than the word games major headlines use (Hamas murdered, Palestinians killed).
I'm not accusing you of doing it maliciously, but it is problematic.
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On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:
I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me.
And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that.
Israel is not being oppressed by Hamas, but Hamas oppresses their constituents. But even if we ignore the whole oppression component of Hamas, the fact that their goals are very clearly stated as extending beyond Israel means it isn't sufficient or even honest to frame the situation as Hamas being entirely internal to the Israel-Palestine conflict.
Mahmoud al-Zahar is the co-founder of Hamas, so I think his perspective on the goals of Hamas are relevant here.
"The entire planet will be under our law; there will be no more Jews or Christian traitors.".
“We believe in what our Prophet Muhammad said: “Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake, and I have seen its eastern and western ends. The dominion of my nation would reach those ends that have been drawn near me," Zahar said in the video that was published on MEMRI TV in December 2022,
“The entire 510 million square kilometers of Planet Earth will come under [a system] where there is no injustice, no oppression, no Zionism, no treacherous Christianity and no killings and crimes like those being committed against the Palestinians, and against the Arabs in all the Arab countries, in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and other countries," he said.
Hamas as a movement has evolved a lot over the course of its existence, and has borrowed from this and that over the course of its evolution. Changes in leadership and developing global political situations have led to certain voices being stronger or weaker over time.
The root of the current form of Hamas can be traced back to the Ottoman empire. Pan-Islamism has of course been around for a very long time, but the current context of pan-Islamism became louder towards the end of the Ottoman empire and then became 1 of 2 dominant perspectives after the fall of the Ottoman empire. In the early years after the fall of the Ottoman empire, Arab nationalism dominated and suppressed pan-islamism and islamists were oppressed and tortured and whatnot to prevent them from gaining too much power and overthrowing Arab nationalists.
Pan-Islamism was mostly dead in the dirt in the 1950s, largely because Nasser was remarkably successful as the leader of Egypt and had a couple really clutch military wins against the west during his rule. But when he got cocky and overextended, he basically went all-in and lost everything during the 6 day war.
After the 6 day war, Arab nationalism was on life support and pan-islamism became dominant again. But its important to keep in mind pan-islamism, despite being a major component of the current form of Hamas, was not some kind of reaction to Israel. Pan-Islamism has been around for a very long time.
Pan-Islamism has been the enemy of Arab nationalism, then the enemy of colonialism, then the enemy of the west as a whole, and so on and so forth. Its not that pan-Islamism wouldn't exist without Israel. Israel is just the best rallying cry for Islamists at the moment. The quote I included above from one of Hamas's founders does not make sense if we assume Hamas's ideology is just some kinda "freedom fighter" movement against Israel. But it makes complete sense when you contextualize it within the history of Arab nationalism, pan-islamism, and the general idea of a caliphate.
I just wanted to take the time to elaborate on why I have said Hamas isn't some kind of Israel-exclusive movement and that Israel not existing would have prevented the whole thing. It is an extension of pan-Islamism, and we have a wealth of information and history to show us where Hamas leadership got their ideas, and the history of those ideas. Events in history can give a movement and ideology a lot of extra power, but we have seen highs and lows in both Arab nationalism and pan-Islamism throughout history. We can't pretend this whole problem goes away in some fictitious situation where Israel never existed to begin with. We even have their own words, shown above, that clearly indicate what the goals of pan-Islamism are.
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On December 29 2023 06:23 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 06:07 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 04:44 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 03:07 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 02:52 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 01:33 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:36 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:25 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
I don't see how that makes a difference to the point. Hamas are only evil from our perspective, not from their own. And as long as Israel is oppressing Palestinians, they have that one very valid point which they can keep using to feed their views and garner support. The fact that Hamas are supremacists beyond just the Palestine region and beyond just the Jewish people changes very little about these points. Nazi's are only evil from our perspective, not their own. Either you are making a grass is green point or no point at all. Nazis never had an oppressor. Palestinians do. This is why Hamas has a much more legit reason than the Nazis did to garner support. Hamas is also an oppressor, not a liberator. Edit: their clear priority is the destruction and removal of Israel. They not only were willing but their plan revolved around slaughtering, raping and torturing as many innocents in Israel as possible to provoke a attack where they could use their human shield strategy and maximize as many innocent Palestinians to die as well. Their leadership puts ZERO value on the Palestinians, they know we value all human rights and are using their deaths. Your position could easily be swapped to justify the ultra orthodox Jewish position of settlement and removal of Palestinians. If you can’t apply and agree with you argument in both directions than it’s not a good argument. It would be better for the Palestinians if Hamas did not exist. Hamas are factually fighting against an oppressor, you cannot deny that. It's absurd that you keep deflecting from that fact. You want to justify unjustifiable acts. Hamas are factually oppressing the Palestinians and are fighting to be their only oppressors. The IDF is also fighting oppressors. The biggest issue is both sides see the lives of innocent Palestinians as expendable. Hamas even more so as they actively targeted infants and actively gang raped women of every age. Whereas the IDF is callously treating the Palestinians (and in some cases journalists and their own hostages)as acceptable collateral damage. I also do not give Hitler and his Nazis any credit for fighting Stalin who objectively was oppressing his people. Hitlers intentions for the oppressed were just as evil if not worse, much like Hamas’s. I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me. And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. You are mistaken, Hamas are oppressors. I’m not suggesting they are oppressing Israel, even if they had the power they would not, they would commit genocide against every man, women and child and not just the Jews. They are oppressing the Palestinians. The fact that Hamas wants to rule with Sharia Law has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas are fighting against an oppressive force. I have no idea what point you are now trying to make. My point is that Hamas is looking to continue to oppress the Palestinians. They are not looking to liberate but rather to be the sole oppressor.
I think if you tried to understand my point instead of just arguing against it, perhaps you would actually understand it.
Hamas wanting to oppress Palestinians is not true. They want to enact a law that you and I would consider oppressive, but Hamas considers the only good and right way to live. It's the word of God, and many Muslims agree with Hamas on this particular point. A very large portion of Muslims want Sharia Law, albeit a less violent version. Hamas want complete Sharia Law, including the more violent aspects, with which a large minority of Muslims agrees, but the majority of Muslims don't. Generally speaking the type of Sharia Law that Hamas want finds support in many parts of the Muslim world. It would be considered strictly extreme only in more liberal countries like ours, but not so much in the ME.
Sharia Law is therefore not something we can use to argue that Hamas want to oppress Palestinians. We can point to other things instead.
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On December 29 2023 06:38 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 06:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:07 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 04:44 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 03:07 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 02:52 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 01:33 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:36 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Nazi's are only evil from our perspective, not their own.
Either you are making a grass is green point or no point at all. Nazis never had an oppressor. Palestinians do. This is why Hamas has a much more legit reason than the Nazis did to garner support. Hamas is also an oppressor, not a liberator. Edit: their clear priority is the destruction and removal of Israel. They not only were willing but their plan revolved around slaughtering, raping and torturing as many innocents in Israel as possible to provoke a attack where they could use their human shield strategy and maximize as many innocent Palestinians to die as well. Their leadership puts ZERO value on the Palestinians, they know we value all human rights and are using their deaths. Your position could easily be swapped to justify the ultra orthodox Jewish position of settlement and removal of Palestinians. If you can’t apply and agree with you argument in both directions than it’s not a good argument. It would be better for the Palestinians if Hamas did not exist. Hamas are factually fighting against an oppressor, you cannot deny that. It's absurd that you keep deflecting from that fact. You want to justify unjustifiable acts. Hamas are factually oppressing the Palestinians and are fighting to be their only oppressors. The IDF is also fighting oppressors. The biggest issue is both sides see the lives of innocent Palestinians as expendable. Hamas even more so as they actively targeted infants and actively gang raped women of every age. Whereas the IDF is callously treating the Palestinians (and in some cases journalists and their own hostages)as acceptable collateral damage. I also do not give Hitler and his Nazis any credit for fighting Stalin who objectively was oppressing his people. Hitlers intentions for the oppressed were just as evil if not worse, much like Hamas’s. I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me. And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. You are mistaken, Hamas are oppressors. I’m not suggesting they are oppressing Israel, even if they had the power they would not, they would commit genocide against every man, women and child and not just the Jews. They are oppressing the Palestinians. The fact that Hamas wants to rule with Sharia Law has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas are fighting against an oppressive force. I have no idea what point you are now trying to make. My point is that Hamas is looking to continue to oppress the Palestinians. They are not looking to liberate but rather to be the sole oppressor. I think if you tried to understand my point instead of just arguing against it, perhaps you would actually understand it. Hamas wanting to oppress Palestinians is not true. They want to enact a law that you and I would consider oppressive, but Hamas considers the only good and right way to live. It's the word of God, and many Muslims agree with Hamas on this particular point. A very large portion of Muslims want Sharia Law, albeit a less violent version. Hamas want complete Sharia Law, including the more violent aspects, with which a large minority of Muslims agrees, but the majority of Muslims don't. Generally speaking the type of Sharia Law that Hamas want finds support in many parts of the Muslim world. It would be considered strictly extreme only in more liberal countries like ours, but not so much in the ME. Sharia Law is therefore not something we can use to argue that Hamas want to oppress Palestinians. We can point to other things instead.
Ah, so if a large number of people agree that slavery is good and the natural order of things (or ordained by God), then it’s not oppression. Thanks for clearing that up.
I guess there is no objective reality.
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On December 29 2023 06:37 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:
I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me.
And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. Israel is not being oppressed by Hamas, but Hamas oppresses their constituents. But even if we ignore the whole oppression component of Hamas, the fact that their goals are very clearly stated as extending beyond Israel means it isn't sufficient or even honest to frame the situation as Hamas being entirely internal to the Israel-Palestine conflict.Mahmoud al-Zahar is the co-founder of Hamas, so I think his perspective on the goals of Hamas are relevant here. Show nested quote +
"The entire planet will be under our law; there will be no more Jews or Christian traitors.".
“We believe in what our Prophet Muhammad said: “Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake, and I have seen its eastern and western ends. The dominion of my nation would reach those ends that have been drawn near me," Zahar said in the video that was published on MEMRI TV in December 2022,
“The entire 510 million square kilometers of Planet Earth will come under [a system] where there is no injustice, no oppression, no Zionism, no treacherous Christianity and no killings and crimes like those being committed against the Palestinians, and against the Arabs in all the Arab countries, in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and other countries," he said.
Hamas as a movement has evolved a lot over the course of its existence, and has borrowed from this and that over the course of its evolution. Changes in leadership and developing global political situations have led to certain voices being stronger or weaker over time. The root of the current form of Hamas can be traced back to the Ottoman empire. Pan-Islamism has of course been around for a very long time, but the current context of pan-Islamism became louder towards the end of the Ottoman empire and then became 1 of 2 dominant perspectives after the fall of the Ottoman empire. In the early years after the fall of the Ottoman empire, Arab nationalism dominated and suppressed pan-islamism and islamists were oppressed and tortured and whatnot to prevent them from gaining too much power and overthrowing Arab nationalists. Pan-Islamism was mostly dead in the dirt in the 1950s, largely because Nasser was remarkably successful as the leader of Egypt and had a couple really clutch military wins against the west during his rule. But when he got cocky and overextended, he basically went all-in and lost everything during the 6 day war. After the 6 day war, Arab nationalism was on life support and pan-islamism became dominant again. But its important to keep in mind pan-islamism, despite being a major component of the current form of Hamas, was not some kind of reaction to Israel. Pan-Islamism has been around for a very long time. Pan-Islamism has been the enemy of Arab nationalism, then the enemy of colonialism, then the enemy of the west as a whole, and so on and so forth. Its not that pan-Islamism wouldn't exist without Israel. Israel is just the best rallying cry for Islamists at the moment. The quote I included above from one of Hamas's founders does not make sense if we assume Hamas's ideology is just some kinda "freedom fighter" movement against Israel. But it makes complete sense when you contextualize it within the history of Arab nationalism, pan-islamism, and the general idea of a caliphate. I just wanted to take the time to elaborate on why I have said Hamas isn't some kind of Israel-exclusive movement and that Israel not existing would have prevented the whole thing. It is an extension of pan-Islamism, and we have a wealth of information and history to show us where Hamas leadership got their ideas, and the history of those ideas. Events in history can give a movement and ideology a lot of extra power, but we have seen highs and lows in both Arab nationalism and pan-Islamism throughout history. We can't pretend this whole problem goes away in some fictitious situation where Israel never existed to begin with. We even have their own words, shown above, that clearly indicate what the goals of pan-Islamism are.
Apparently this keeps going over people's heads. I'm not arguing that Hamas' conquest would, if successful, remain restricted to Israel or Palestine. I didn't say that anywhere. What I'm saying is that Hamas can reasonably argue that they're fighting against oppressors. This point is indisputable, because Israel is in fact an oppressor of Palestinians.
Whether we like it or not, this gives credibility to Hamas' call to violence of Palestinians against the Israeli population. Since Palestinians are in fact oppressed by Israel, therefore Hamas cannot be strictly labeled a pure evil. Instead they're an evil born out of oppression. You may not like to hear this, but it's true. Hamas is fueled by righteousness, not by bloodlust. Their bloodlust follows from their righteousness.
Whatever other calls for violence Hamas sends out to Palestinians - against people outside of Israel and against non-Jews - are simply a result of the existing extremist views against Israel. Everything follows. The US supports Israel. The UN is powerless to stop the US. European nations are not sanctioning the US for supporting Israel, and instead engaged in open trade. And so forth. The whole train of thought goes from "destroy Israel" to "destroy every supporter of Israel", because the root of Hamas' righteousness is true: Israel oppresses the Palestinians.
As long as this one idea is true, every other idea follows. Hamas is therefore not inherently evil (as the Nazis were). Their evil actions are caused by their righteousness. Hamas can only be destroyed after Israel has stopped oppressing Palestinians.
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On December 29 2023 06:48 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 06:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 06:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:07 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 04:44 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 03:07 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 02:52 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 01:33 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:46 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Nazis never had an oppressor. Palestinians do. This is why Hamas has a much more legit reason than the Nazis did to garner support. Hamas is also an oppressor, not a liberator. Edit: their clear priority is the destruction and removal of Israel. They not only were willing but their plan revolved around slaughtering, raping and torturing as many innocents in Israel as possible to provoke a attack where they could use their human shield strategy and maximize as many innocent Palestinians to die as well. Their leadership puts ZERO value on the Palestinians, they know we value all human rights and are using their deaths. Your position could easily be swapped to justify the ultra orthodox Jewish position of settlement and removal of Palestinians. If you can’t apply and agree with you argument in both directions than it’s not a good argument. It would be better for the Palestinians if Hamas did not exist. Hamas are factually fighting against an oppressor, you cannot deny that. It's absurd that you keep deflecting from that fact. You want to justify unjustifiable acts. Hamas are factually oppressing the Palestinians and are fighting to be their only oppressors. The IDF is also fighting oppressors. The biggest issue is both sides see the lives of innocent Palestinians as expendable. Hamas even more so as they actively targeted infants and actively gang raped women of every age. Whereas the IDF is callously treating the Palestinians (and in some cases journalists and their own hostages)as acceptable collateral damage. I also do not give Hitler and his Nazis any credit for fighting Stalin who objectively was oppressing his people. Hitlers intentions for the oppressed were just as evil if not worse, much like Hamas’s. I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me. And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. You are mistaken, Hamas are oppressors. I’m not suggesting they are oppressing Israel, even if they had the power they would not, they would commit genocide against every man, women and child and not just the Jews. They are oppressing the Palestinians. The fact that Hamas wants to rule with Sharia Law has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas are fighting against an oppressive force. I have no idea what point you are now trying to make. My point is that Hamas is looking to continue to oppress the Palestinians. They are not looking to liberate but rather to be the sole oppressor. I think if you tried to understand my point instead of just arguing against it, perhaps you would actually understand it. Hamas wanting to oppress Palestinians is not true. They want to enact a law that you and I would consider oppressive, but Hamas considers the only good and right way to live. It's the word of God, and many Muslims agree with Hamas on this particular point. A very large portion of Muslims want Sharia Law, albeit a less violent version. Hamas want complete Sharia Law, including the more violent aspects, with which a large minority of Muslims agrees, but the majority of Muslims don't. Generally speaking the type of Sharia Law that Hamas want finds support in many parts of the Muslim world. It would be considered strictly extreme only in more liberal countries like ours, but not so much in the ME. Sharia Law is therefore not something we can use to argue that Hamas want to oppress Palestinians. We can point to other things instead. Ah, so if a large number of people agree that slavery is good and the natural order of things (or ordained by God), then it’s not oppression. Thanks for clearing that up. I guess there is no objective reality.
What, are your surprised? Slavery used to be considered a norm across the globe. Yes indeed, during those days it was not considered extremist to hold slaves. Guess what, it was also not considered extremist that women should be second class citizens. Or that little children should work in coal mines. Good thing we didn't live during those days with our current views, because people would've hunted us out of town.
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EPT
