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On December 28 2023 11:38 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 08:37 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:22 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 08:10 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:05 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 07:48 Gorsameth wrote:On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. You seem to still be stuck trying to process that Israel is oppressing Palestinians. And therefor any discussion that derives from that point is going to go entirely over your head Because it is a nonsense idea. They have rejected every 2 state solution they have been given. They elected Hamas who said this about the Jews in their charter. "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). avalon.law.yale.eduReal freedom fighter energy there. Recognize Israel's right to exist, quit doing terror attacks, and the "oppression" ends. Or alternatively keep hating Jews, attack Israel, and keep this nonsense going for the 80 years. The two-state "solution" was a farce (every single proposal). It heavily favored the Zionists, and there was no basis for it to begin with. The Palestinian leaders were right to reject the UN resolution each time. What's more, after the State of Israel was conceived, the Zionists didn't even attempt to offer a state to the Palestinians, or to restart negotiations otherwise. They were victorious and so they saw no need to negotiate with the loser of the conflict. To them it became a matter of might makes right. This proves the Palestinians right who believed all along that the Zionists were violent invaders and not a civil force. Israel was invaded by its neighbors and you are calling them the violent invaders? You don't get to invade, fail, and then demand everyone agree to your terms. The Zionists and their followers fought violently with the Palestinian population and won. Then the State of Israel was conveived. Then Israel was invaded. You have the timeline wrong. Interestingly this phrasing about "violent Zionist invasion" seems like it is lifted straight from the Hamas charter. Show nested quote +Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world. Replace the word Zionist with jew and you see what they are actually saying. Jews control the media. Show nested quote +The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying. The "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a made up book supposedly about plans for Jewish domination of the world. There are more examples of this. Show nested quote +The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews. "world Zionism" again Jews controlling the world. This isn't about oppression. Any more than it was about oppression when Assad denied the holocaust. They are antisemites. They tell you. Believe them.
Zionists are Jews. Jews are not Zionists.
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On December 28 2023 11:35 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 10:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 09:54 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 08:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:29 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 06:09 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 05:47 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
In our eyes Sharia Law is oppressive, but for Hamas it's the only correct way to live. Liberation has a different meaning for religious fundamentalists than it does for people in more liberal countries like ours.
It's also important to show that, just because Israel has a more progressive or liberal approach to its social norms compared to various Arab nations, that doesn't mean that their own oppression of Palestinians can be excused. As always, two wrongs don't make a right. Palestinians need to figure out their own liberation after they've received freedom from Israel's oppression. I didn’t say what you are saying I did. Bottom line is Hamas intentions have nothing to do with freeing the Palestinians. They are an arm of Iran which is trying to rule the entiee Middle East for only those who think exactly like them and only those with the proper birthright to rule. That you and many others excuse this behaviour is wrong to me and confused me. They are worse objectively than all the fascists everyone is willing to kill. No need to excuse it, because I don’t give a fuck if they believe a warped version of Islam gives them the divine right any more than I would some wacky evil Christian faith. You still don't understand. Hamas has two goals. One is to liberate Palestinians from Israel. The other is to rule people in the aftermath. These are not contradictory goals. You also don't understand that we're not excusing their behavior, we're explaining it. We can condemn them, but we can also understand where they're coming from. No, you do not understand. You are giving them western values that they do not have, nor profess to have. You don’t use the human shield strategy with women and children of people you value. No, you do not understand. I'm not arguing that Hamas are good people. They are evil through and through. That changes nothing about them wanting to liberate Palestinians. They believe that, for the sake of liberation, it is justified to sacrifice Palestinians, too. Sorry you’re wrong, Hamas is just Irans puppets and their leadership cares as little about the Palestinians as Israel and treats them worse. Edit: your original post I argued you said that Hamas wants to liberate Palestinians which is not true, they want to be the only oppressor and you stated they are not currently oppressing which is also blatantly false for all Palestinians but no way you can not argue that they are not oppressing all the women. Hamas are much more than just puppets with guns. They have their own agenda, their own world view. They're sponsored by terrorist states, but at the end of the day they're all individual Palestinians sacrificing their lives for the same goal. They didn't just suddenly get money from a terrorist state and that turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths. That's not how this works. Their desire to kill every Jew did not come from surrounding states, it came from within Gaza. They were born into an oppressive environment that is breeding ground for extremism. The money only funds them, but their views were inherited from their close environment. Most Hamas members believe that they're being righteous. They're on a crusade against an evil oppressor. They do not believe that they're in the wrong. They work tirelessly to find new ways to destroy Israel, and this drive comes from a deep hatred for their oppressors. And that's the fundamental problem. Hamas are indeed up against an oppressor. If Israel was peaceful, not showing any meaningful aggression against Palestinians, then Hamas would be nothing but a farce. A lie. They would be literally like the Nazis. Comic book villains practically. But unfortunately Hamas are born into oppression, and that changes the equation quite dramatically. It means that Hamas are not puppets, they're authentic. They'd want to destroy Israel regardless of who leads them. Hamas do want to liberate Palestinians. They think that Israel is evil through and through. This is how they justify their own evil actions. They ask a simple question: if they're up against the greatest of all evils, and if this evil cannot be defeated with goodness, then why wouldn't Hamas be permitted - or required - to commit evil, too? Their thinking is of course a fallacy, but it is a very understandable fallacy when you understand where Hamas are coming from. Oppressed from birth, with no future. Maybe then you can see why they become so radicalized out of their own volition. They're self-determined. You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil. The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7. Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil. First you might be talking about their general brainwashed foot soldier and not their ultra wealthy leadership. And I’m sure some of them have some thoughts of righteousness but I would suspect most are driven by hate. I’m also sure that some of the Russian soldiers have drank the propaganda and believe they are righteously denazifying Ukraine and saving them from the Western oppression. So why exactly do you not talk about Russians the way you do Hamas? You writing he Hamas was born and he they recruit does not help your point. I am completely aware that the Hamas leadership is using the Israeli aggression and oppression to further their own goals and use the Palestinians as a worthless meat shield to accomplish them. That is a large part of my point. If most of you just admitted that you thought of Hamas as freedom fighters forced to do awful things by the evil Israelis, we could have a discussion on why I would disagree with that. But this pretending to try to keep some art of high ground does not allow for actual discussion. Pick a lane on the Hamas organization. Yes I feel sorry for the brainwashed foot soldiers and civilians being sacrificed. But I was one of the few who felt bad for the same Russians. Many of you had no pity for the Russians but tons for Hamas. Yes, I'm focusing on the totality of Hamas members, not just their leaders. I think Hamas has a solid belief structure that doesn't require any specific figure at the top. The leaders are interchangeable because they all share their hatred for Israel. Their anger is very targeted, and a different leader could easily channel that anger in the same direction because it's so authentic. This is also part of why I don't believe Hamas can be destroyed militarily. Furthermore, hatred is not antithetical to righteousness. Even cruelty can be a result of zealotry from an extreme sense of justice, especially when coupled with hopelessness. There's a reason why the most feared man is the one with nothing to lose. I believe that most Hamas members feel righteous and that is what drives their hatred. They have the motivation to work every day and night on vast tunnel systems for several years. Theyre fanatic. They believe they're in a war against evil. This is what gets them out of bed every morning, otherwise they wouldn't be able to do all of this for such a long time. It's easy for us to say that their understanding of freedom and justice is warped, but if we were born in Gaza we'd likely have a different understanding of these words. Israel is a democratic country. Well then how do you explain to people in Gaza that democracy is not responsible for the oppression of Palestinians? If the Israeli people are electing an oppressive regime, then how can they not be considered evil? It's a simplistic understanding of democracy, but hard to argue with when you're the one who's oppressed. You might have a point if Hamas was fighting against the Israeli military and government. Once you purposefully murder infants, gang rape, torture and so on, you lose all credibility. That goes for all who ordered it, planned and trained for it, participated (implicitly as well) and celebrated it. Which is basically your entire Hamas organization. Stop trying to justify the unjustifiable, you can criticize Isreal without doing it and you lose all credibility when you do. No one should be apologetic or trying to justify what they have done, what they are about , or who they are.
As I explained, Hamas believe that the Israeli military and government is a direct result of the Israeli population. One leads to the other. That is how Hamas justifies mass slaughtering innocent civilians. It's not a very difficult logic to grasp, and you should really have noticed by now that it's not my logic, it's theirs. Hamas is using this logic. They think it's justified to kill the Jews because they think that Jews create oppression. Their views would be much easier to argue against if the State of Israel (not the Jewish people) didn't oppress Palestinians. But it does, and it has done so for many decades. As a democratic country, the people of Israel share some responsibility for the actions of its government. The way Hamas sees it, Jews don't just share responsibility, they have all the responsibility. And that would make all Jewish people evil in Hamas' eyes.
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On December 28 2023 12:42 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 11:54 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 28 2023 11:38 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 08:37 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:22 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 08:10 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:05 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 07:48 Gorsameth wrote:On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. You seem to still be stuck trying to process that Israel is oppressing Palestinians. And therefor any discussion that derives from that point is going to go entirely over your head Because it is a nonsense idea. They have rejected every 2 state solution they have been given. They elected Hamas who said this about the Jews in their charter. "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). avalon.law.yale.eduReal freedom fighter energy there. Recognize Israel's right to exist, quit doing terror attacks, and the "oppression" ends. Or alternatively keep hating Jews, attack Israel, and keep this nonsense going for the 80 years. The two-state "solution" was a farce (every single proposal). It heavily favored the Zionists, and there was no basis for it to begin with. The Palestinian leaders were right to reject the UN resolution each time. What's more, after the State of Israel was conceived, the Zionists didn't even attempt to offer a state to the Palestinians, or to restart negotiations otherwise. They were victorious and so they saw no need to negotiate with the loser of the conflict. To them it became a matter of might makes right. This proves the Palestinians right who believed all along that the Zionists were violent invaders and not a civil force. Israel was invaded by its neighbors and you are calling them the violent invaders? You don't get to invade, fail, and then demand everyone agree to your terms. The Zionists and their followers fought violently with the Palestinian population and won. Then the State of Israel was conveived. Then Israel was invaded. You have the timeline wrong. Interestingly this phrasing about "violent Zionist invasion" seems like it is lifted straight from the Hamas charter. Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world. Replace the word Zionist with jew and you see what they are actually saying. Jews control the media.The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying. The "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a made up book supposedly about plans for Jewish domination of the world. There are more examples of this. The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews. "world Zionism" again Jews controlling the world. This isn't about oppression. Any more than it was about oppression when Assad denied the holocaust. They are antisemites. They tell you. Believe them. That bit sounds to me like he's referring to stuff like AIPAC which unquestionably has an impact on American Policy. Come on dude. The phrase Show nested quote +Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control in the same document where they say stuff like Show nested quote +"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). and talk about the "protocols of the elders of Zion". You really think this is a nuanced criticism of a lobbying group?
Your reasoning boils down to "if Hamas opposes Zionists, then it must be antisemitic to oppose Zionists."
That's not how it works. Extremists are wrong in their actions, but they're not necessarily wrong in all of their views that lead them to justify their actions. Zionists have caused major, perhaps irreparable harm in the ME. There are plenty of Jewish scholars who oppose Zionism.
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On December 28 2023 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 11:38 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 08:37 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:22 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 08:10 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:05 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 07:48 Gorsameth wrote:On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. You seem to still be stuck trying to process that Israel is oppressing Palestinians. And therefor any discussion that derives from that point is going to go entirely over your head Because it is a nonsense idea. They have rejected every 2 state solution they have been given. They elected Hamas who said this about the Jews in their charter. "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). avalon.law.yale.eduReal freedom fighter energy there. Recognize Israel's right to exist, quit doing terror attacks, and the "oppression" ends. Or alternatively keep hating Jews, attack Israel, and keep this nonsense going for the 80 years. The two-state "solution" was a farce (every single proposal). It heavily favored the Zionists, and there was no basis for it to begin with. The Palestinian leaders were right to reject the UN resolution each time. What's more, after the State of Israel was conceived, the Zionists didn't even attempt to offer a state to the Palestinians, or to restart negotiations otherwise. They were victorious and so they saw no need to negotiate with the loser of the conflict. To them it became a matter of might makes right. This proves the Palestinians right who believed all along that the Zionists were violent invaders and not a civil force. Israel was invaded by its neighbors and you are calling them the violent invaders? You don't get to invade, fail, and then demand everyone agree to your terms. The Zionists and their followers fought violently with the Palestinian population and won. Then the State of Israel was conveived. Then Israel was invaded. You have the timeline wrong. Interestingly this phrasing about "violent Zionist invasion" seems like it is lifted straight from the Hamas charter. Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world. Replace the word Zionist with jew and you see what they are actually saying. Jews control the media. The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying. The "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a made up book supposedly about plans for Jewish domination of the world. There are more examples of this. The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews. "world Zionism" again Jews controlling the world. This isn't about oppression. Any more than it was about oppression when Assad denied the holocaust. They are antisemites. They tell you. Believe them. Zionists are Jews. Jews are not Zionists.
Context matters. If someone talks about "Zionists" controlling the media they are not talking about Zionism as a political ideology.
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On December 28 2023 19:46 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 12:42 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 11:54 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 28 2023 11:38 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 08:37 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:22 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 08:10 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:05 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 07:48 Gorsameth wrote:On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:
[quote]
They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands.
You seem to still be stuck trying to process that Israel is oppressing Palestinians. And therefor any discussion that derives from that point is going to go entirely over your head Because it is a nonsense idea. They have rejected every 2 state solution they have been given. They elected Hamas who said this about the Jews in their charter. "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). avalon.law.yale.eduReal freedom fighter energy there. Recognize Israel's right to exist, quit doing terror attacks, and the "oppression" ends. Or alternatively keep hating Jews, attack Israel, and keep this nonsense going for the 80 years. The two-state "solution" was a farce (every single proposal). It heavily favored the Zionists, and there was no basis for it to begin with. The Palestinian leaders were right to reject the UN resolution each time. What's more, after the State of Israel was conceived, the Zionists didn't even attempt to offer a state to the Palestinians, or to restart negotiations otherwise. They were victorious and so they saw no need to negotiate with the loser of the conflict. To them it became a matter of might makes right. This proves the Palestinians right who believed all along that the Zionists were violent invaders and not a civil force. Israel was invaded by its neighbors and you are calling them the violent invaders? You don't get to invade, fail, and then demand everyone agree to your terms. The Zionists and their followers fought violently with the Palestinian population and won. Then the State of Israel was conveived. Then Israel was invaded. You have the timeline wrong. Interestingly this phrasing about "violent Zionist invasion" seems like it is lifted straight from the Hamas charter. Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world. Replace the word Zionist with jew and you see what they are actually saying. Jews control the media.The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying. The "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a made up book supposedly about plans for Jewish domination of the world. There are more examples of this. The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews. "world Zionism" again Jews controlling the world. This isn't about oppression. Any more than it was about oppression when Assad denied the holocaust. They are antisemites. They tell you. Believe them. That bit sounds to me like he's referring to stuff like AIPAC which unquestionably has an impact on American Policy. Come on dude. The phrase Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control in the same document where they say stuff like "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). and talk about the "protocols of the elders of Zion". You really think this is a nuanced criticism of a lobbying group? Your reasoning boils down to "if Hamas opposes Zionists, then it must be antisemitic to oppose Zionists." That's not how it works. Extremists are wrong in their actions, but they're not necessarily wrong in all of their views that lead them to justify their actions. Zionists have caused major, perhaps irreparable harm in the ME. There are plenty of Jewish scholars who oppose Zionism.
Not it boils down to if you say "insert conspiracy theory about jews but replace the word jew with the word Zionist" you are not actually making a critique against Zionism. There are non antisemitic scholars who make arguments against Zionism. Hamas is not one of them. I have quoted a bunch of their views. It is conspiracy theory nonsense.
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On December 28 2023 21:14 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 11:38 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 08:37 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:22 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 08:10 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:05 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 07:48 Gorsameth wrote:On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. You seem to still be stuck trying to process that Israel is oppressing Palestinians. And therefor any discussion that derives from that point is going to go entirely over your head Because it is a nonsense idea. They have rejected every 2 state solution they have been given. They elected Hamas who said this about the Jews in their charter. "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). avalon.law.yale.eduReal freedom fighter energy there. Recognize Israel's right to exist, quit doing terror attacks, and the "oppression" ends. Or alternatively keep hating Jews, attack Israel, and keep this nonsense going for the 80 years. The two-state "solution" was a farce (every single proposal). It heavily favored the Zionists, and there was no basis for it to begin with. The Palestinian leaders were right to reject the UN resolution each time. What's more, after the State of Israel was conceived, the Zionists didn't even attempt to offer a state to the Palestinians, or to restart negotiations otherwise. They were victorious and so they saw no need to negotiate with the loser of the conflict. To them it became a matter of might makes right. This proves the Palestinians right who believed all along that the Zionists were violent invaders and not a civil force. Israel was invaded by its neighbors and you are calling them the violent invaders? You don't get to invade, fail, and then demand everyone agree to your terms. The Zionists and their followers fought violently with the Palestinian population and won. Then the State of Israel was conveived. Then Israel was invaded. You have the timeline wrong. Interestingly this phrasing about "violent Zionist invasion" seems like it is lifted straight from the Hamas charter. Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world. Replace the word Zionist with jew and you see what they are actually saying. Jews control the media. The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying. The "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a made up book supposedly about plans for Jewish domination of the world. There are more examples of this. The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews. "world Zionism" again Jews controlling the world. This isn't about oppression. Any more than it was about oppression when Assad denied the holocaust. They are antisemites. They tell you. Believe them. Zionists are Jews. Jews are not Zionists. Context matters. If someone talks about "Zionists" controlling the media they are not talking about Zionism as a political ideology.
Zionism is a nationalist ideology. They equate the Jewish people to Israel, for them these are one and the same. The nation for the Jews and the Jews for the nation.
Nationalism is a collectivist ideology that puts its people above all others, justifying atrocities against others for the sake of the people of the nation. Zionists are national supremacists. This is not just patriotism, it's a much more depraved ideology.
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On December 28 2023 21:22 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 19:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 12:42 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 11:54 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 28 2023 11:38 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 08:37 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:22 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 08:10 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:05 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 07:48 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]You seem to still be stuck trying to process that Israel is oppressing Palestinians. And therefor any discussion that derives from that point is going to go entirely over your head
Because it is a nonsense idea. They have rejected every 2 state solution they have been given. They elected Hamas who said this about the Jews in their charter. "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). avalon.law.yale.eduReal freedom fighter energy there. Recognize Israel's right to exist, quit doing terror attacks, and the "oppression" ends. Or alternatively keep hating Jews, attack Israel, and keep this nonsense going for the 80 years. The two-state "solution" was a farce (every single proposal). It heavily favored the Zionists, and there was no basis for it to begin with. The Palestinian leaders were right to reject the UN resolution each time. What's more, after the State of Israel was conceived, the Zionists didn't even attempt to offer a state to the Palestinians, or to restart negotiations otherwise. They were victorious and so they saw no need to negotiate with the loser of the conflict. To them it became a matter of might makes right. This proves the Palestinians right who believed all along that the Zionists were violent invaders and not a civil force. Israel was invaded by its neighbors and you are calling them the violent invaders? You don't get to invade, fail, and then demand everyone agree to your terms. The Zionists and their followers fought violently with the Palestinian population and won. Then the State of Israel was conveived. Then Israel was invaded. You have the timeline wrong. Interestingly this phrasing about "violent Zionist invasion" seems like it is lifted straight from the Hamas charter. Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world. Replace the word Zionist with jew and you see what they are actually saying. Jews control the media.The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying. The "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a made up book supposedly about plans for Jewish domination of the world. There are more examples of this. The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews. "world Zionism" again Jews controlling the world. This isn't about oppression. Any more than it was about oppression when Assad denied the holocaust. They are antisemites. They tell you. Believe them. That bit sounds to me like he's referring to stuff like AIPAC which unquestionably has an impact on American Policy. Come on dude. The phrase Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control in the same document where they say stuff like "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). and talk about the "protocols of the elders of Zion". You really think this is a nuanced criticism of a lobbying group? Your reasoning boils down to "if Hamas opposes Zionists, then it must be antisemitic to oppose Zionists." That's not how it works. Extremists are wrong in their actions, but they're not necessarily wrong in all of their views that lead them to justify their actions. Zionists have caused major, perhaps irreparable harm in the ME. There are plenty of Jewish scholars who oppose Zionism. Not it boils down to if you say "insert conspiracy theory about jews but replace the word jew with the word Zionist" you are not actually making a critique against Zionism. There are non antisemitic scholars who make arguments Zionism. Hamas is not one of them. I have quoted a bunch of their views. It is conspiracy theory nonsense.
This is strictly false. Jews are not Zionists. I accuse Zionists specifically, not Jews at large. The Jewish people are not Zionists, they're people like you and I just wanting to live their lives. Zionists don't just want to live their lives, they want to impose their will on others and they dominate others for that sake.
This is not a conspiracy theory. Zionists have openly stated their interests since before the conception of the State of Israel. The information is widely available, and the blood trail that Zionists have left behind is also well documented.
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On December 28 2023 16:42 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 13:01 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 12:32 Nebuchad wrote:On December 28 2023 11:46 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 28 2023 09:54 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 08:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:29 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
You still don't understand. Hamas has two goals. One is to liberate Palestinians from Israel. The other is to rule people in the aftermath. These are not contradictory goals.
You also don't understand that we're not excusing their behavior, we're explaining it. We can condemn them, but we can also understand where they're coming from. No, you do not understand. You are giving them western values that they do not have, nor profess to have. You don’t use the human shield strategy with women and children of people you value. No, you do not understand. I'm not arguing that Hamas are good people. They are evil through and through. That changes nothing about them wanting to liberate Palestinians. They believe that, for the sake of liberation, it is justified to sacrifice Palestinians, too. Sorry you’re wrong, Hamas is just Irans puppets and their leadership cares as little about the Palestinians as Israel and treats them worse. Edit: your original post I argued you said that Hamas wants to liberate Palestinians which is not true, they want to be the only oppressor and you stated they are not currently oppressing which is also blatantly false for all Palestinians but no way you can not argue that they are not oppressing all the women. Hamas are much more than just puppets with guns. They have their own agenda, their own world view. They're sponsored by terrorist states, but at the end of the day they're all individual Palestinians sacrificing their lives for the same goal. They didn't just suddenly get money from a terrorist state and that turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths. That's not how this works. Their desire to kill every Jew did not come from surrounding states, it came from within Gaza. They were born into an oppressive environment that is breeding ground for extremism. The money only funds them, but their views were inherited from their close environment. Most Hamas members believe that they're being righteous. They're on a crusade against an evil oppressor. They do not believe that they're in the wrong. They work tirelessly to find new ways to destroy Israel, and this drive comes from a deep hatred for their oppressors. And that's the fundamental problem. Hamas are indeed up against an oppressor. If Israel was peaceful, not showing any meaningful aggression against Palestinians, then Hamas would be nothing but a farce. A lie. They would be literally like the Nazis. Comic book villains practically. But unfortunately Hamas are born into oppression, and that changes the equation quite dramatically. It means that Hamas are not puppets, they're authentic. They'd want to destroy Israel regardless of who leads them. Hamas do want to liberate Palestinians. They think that Israel is evil through and through. This is how they justify their own evil actions. They ask a simple question: if they're up against the greatest of all evils, and if this evil cannot be defeated with goodness, then why wouldn't Hamas be permitted - or required - to commit evil, too? Their thinking is of course a fallacy, but it is a very understandable fallacy when you understand where Hamas are coming from. Oppressed from birth, with no future. Maybe then you can see why they become so radicalized out of their own volition. They're self-determined. You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil. The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7. Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil. First you might be talking about their general brainwashed foot soldier and not their ultra wealthy leadership. And I’m sure some of them have some thoughts of righteousness but I would suspect most are driven by hate. I’m also sure that some of the Russian soldiers have drank the propaganda and believe they are righteously denazifying Ukraine and saving them from the Western oppression. So why exactly do you not talk about Russians the way you do Hamas?You writing he Hamas was born and he they recruit does not help your point. I am completely aware that the Hamas leadership is using the Israeli aggression and oppression to further their own goals and use the Palestinians as a worthless meat shield to accomplish them. That is a large part of my point. If most of you just admitted that you thought of Hamas as freedom fighters forced to do awful things by the evil Israelis, we could have a discussion on why I would disagree with that. But this pretending to try to keep some art of high ground does not allow for actual discussion. Pick a lane on the Hamas organization. Yes I feel sorry for the brainwashed foot soldiers and civilians being sacrificed. But I was one of the few who felt bad for the same Russians. Many of you had no pity for the Russians but tons for Hamas. Probably because he views Russia as being on the opposite end of the conflict. Aggressor vs Liberator. You, I imagine, though please correct don't align with that view, but that's kinda the crux of the matter. Either way, it is true that Hamas can't be given that credit given the brutal and criminal nature by which they operate. In this I believe Magic is misguided, what he is saying applies to the Palestinian fight for liberation in a general sense, Hamas' actions are unacceptable. This, however, does not in any way justify or excuse Israel's actions though. I think this is a decent place to talk about mechanics vs morals. Some of the characteristics of Israel vs Palestine are unique but it is generally true that situations of aggression vs liberation will lead the main violent group that opposes the agressor to be thriving, regardless of what its ulterior goals are. There is an american agressor in your afghan valley, you're willing to fight it with violence, you join the taliban. It's not going to be about the taliban ideology specifically, it's about kicking the enemy out. You probably don't have much of an ideology of your own outside of kicking the enemy out, and as such you'll be vulnerable to adopting the ideology that is popular among your main comrades in the fight. It takes a profound misunderstanding of humankind to think that Palestinians join Hamas in such large numbers because they're really into Iran or because they really want to inflict a bunch of muslim far right ideas on the minority populations of Palestine. The first impulse is that they want to be liberated from Israel's oppression. Obviously. You could listen to the way Palestinians talk about Israel or about the conflict, but you really shouldn't even have to do that, you should expect things to happen this way. That's the mechanical part, but the moral part is also true. When the US goes out and the taliban wins, they do institute the taliban regime, they don't suddenly become democrats. So yes, Hamas would do the same if it were to "win" this conflict, which they can't really do anyway so it doesn't really matter. So that's not often been the case in this thread, but both sides are right  you're just not really talking about the same thing. Hamas is mechanically a force that is thriving because it fights to liberate Palestine from oppression, but it is morally objectionable because its ideology is also far right, and also causes unnecessary suffering of Palestinians and Israelis. In a shocking turn of events, being far right is bad for humans Raping women and firing rockets at civilians doesn't liberate anyone. You really underestimate the power of fanatical ideology. No one was oppressing the Japanese or Germans. No one was oppressing the Catholics when they decided to do the crusades. No one was oppressing the Protestants when they fought the catholics. On the other hand there have been many groups that have been historically oppressed who have not waged an 80 year terrorist campaign. There are a lot of groups who never got a country or lost part of their land or were forced to move that never waged a war. This framing of oppressor/oppressed is trying to put a Western lens on people who don't subscribe to it. We care about individual rights and oppressed people. To them Islam is much more important. Look at every country in the middle east. They don't care about the Palestinians. They don't care when Assad butchers his own people or Saudi Arabia kills people in Yemen. And yet they all still hate Israel. It is because of ideology, not because of oppression. To be fair the same can still be said for the fanatical Christians in southern USA.
Yes it can. If they gain power we are in serious trouble.
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On December 28 2023 21:30 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 16:42 gobbledydook wrote:On December 28 2023 13:01 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 12:32 Nebuchad wrote:On December 28 2023 11:46 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 28 2023 09:54 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 08:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:29 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
No, you do not understand. You are giving them western values that they do not have, nor profess to have. You don’t use the human shield strategy with women and children of people you value.
No, you do not understand. I'm not arguing that Hamas are good people. They are evil through and through. That changes nothing about them wanting to liberate Palestinians. They believe that, for the sake of liberation, it is justified to sacrifice Palestinians, too. Sorry you’re wrong, Hamas is just Irans puppets and their leadership cares as little about the Palestinians as Israel and treats them worse. Edit: your original post I argued you said that Hamas wants to liberate Palestinians which is not true, they want to be the only oppressor and you stated they are not currently oppressing which is also blatantly false for all Palestinians but no way you can not argue that they are not oppressing all the women. Hamas are much more than just puppets with guns. They have their own agenda, their own world view. They're sponsored by terrorist states, but at the end of the day they're all individual Palestinians sacrificing their lives for the same goal. They didn't just suddenly get money from a terrorist state and that turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths. That's not how this works. Their desire to kill every Jew did not come from surrounding states, it came from within Gaza. They were born into an oppressive environment that is breeding ground for extremism. The money only funds them, but their views were inherited from their close environment. Most Hamas members believe that they're being righteous. They're on a crusade against an evil oppressor. They do not believe that they're in the wrong. They work tirelessly to find new ways to destroy Israel, and this drive comes from a deep hatred for their oppressors. And that's the fundamental problem. Hamas are indeed up against an oppressor. If Israel was peaceful, not showing any meaningful aggression against Palestinians, then Hamas would be nothing but a farce. A lie. They would be literally like the Nazis. Comic book villains practically. But unfortunately Hamas are born into oppression, and that changes the equation quite dramatically. It means that Hamas are not puppets, they're authentic. They'd want to destroy Israel regardless of who leads them. Hamas do want to liberate Palestinians. They think that Israel is evil through and through. This is how they justify their own evil actions. They ask a simple question: if they're up against the greatest of all evils, and if this evil cannot be defeated with goodness, then why wouldn't Hamas be permitted - or required - to commit evil, too? Their thinking is of course a fallacy, but it is a very understandable fallacy when you understand where Hamas are coming from. Oppressed from birth, with no future. Maybe then you can see why they become so radicalized out of their own volition. They're self-determined. You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil. The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7. Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil. First you might be talking about their general brainwashed foot soldier and not their ultra wealthy leadership. And I’m sure some of them have some thoughts of righteousness but I would suspect most are driven by hate. I’m also sure that some of the Russian soldiers have drank the propaganda and believe they are righteously denazifying Ukraine and saving them from the Western oppression. So why exactly do you not talk about Russians the way you do Hamas?You writing he Hamas was born and he they recruit does not help your point. I am completely aware that the Hamas leadership is using the Israeli aggression and oppression to further their own goals and use the Palestinians as a worthless meat shield to accomplish them. That is a large part of my point. If most of you just admitted that you thought of Hamas as freedom fighters forced to do awful things by the evil Israelis, we could have a discussion on why I would disagree with that. But this pretending to try to keep some art of high ground does not allow for actual discussion. Pick a lane on the Hamas organization. Yes I feel sorry for the brainwashed foot soldiers and civilians being sacrificed. But I was one of the few who felt bad for the same Russians. Many of you had no pity for the Russians but tons for Hamas. Probably because he views Russia as being on the opposite end of the conflict. Aggressor vs Liberator. You, I imagine, though please correct don't align with that view, but that's kinda the crux of the matter. Either way, it is true that Hamas can't be given that credit given the brutal and criminal nature by which they operate. In this I believe Magic is misguided, what he is saying applies to the Palestinian fight for liberation in a general sense, Hamas' actions are unacceptable. This, however, does not in any way justify or excuse Israel's actions though. I think this is a decent place to talk about mechanics vs morals. Some of the characteristics of Israel vs Palestine are unique but it is generally true that situations of aggression vs liberation will lead the main violent group that opposes the agressor to be thriving, regardless of what its ulterior goals are. There is an american agressor in your afghan valley, you're willing to fight it with violence, you join the taliban. It's not going to be about the taliban ideology specifically, it's about kicking the enemy out. You probably don't have much of an ideology of your own outside of kicking the enemy out, and as such you'll be vulnerable to adopting the ideology that is popular among your main comrades in the fight. It takes a profound misunderstanding of humankind to think that Palestinians join Hamas in such large numbers because they're really into Iran or because they really want to inflict a bunch of muslim far right ideas on the minority populations of Palestine. The first impulse is that they want to be liberated from Israel's oppression. Obviously. You could listen to the way Palestinians talk about Israel or about the conflict, but you really shouldn't even have to do that, you should expect things to happen this way. That's the mechanical part, but the moral part is also true. When the US goes out and the taliban wins, they do institute the taliban regime, they don't suddenly become democrats. So yes, Hamas would do the same if it were to "win" this conflict, which they can't really do anyway so it doesn't really matter. So that's not often been the case in this thread, but both sides are right you're just not really talking about the same thing. Hamas is mechanically a force that is thriving because it fights to liberate Palestine from oppression, but it is morally objectionable because its ideology is also far right, and also causes unnecessary suffering of Palestinians and Israelis. In a shocking turn of events, being far right is bad for humans Raping women and firing rockets at civilians doesn't liberate anyone. You really underestimate the power of fanatical ideology. No one was oppressing the Japanese or Germans. No one was oppressing the Catholics when they decided to do the crusades. No one was oppressing the Protestants when they fought the catholics. On the other hand there have been many groups that have been historically oppressed who have not waged an 80 year terrorist campaign. There are a lot of groups who never got a country or lost part of their land or were forced to move that never waged a war. This framing of oppressor/oppressed is trying to put a Western lens on people who don't subscribe to it. We care about individual rights and oppressed people. To them Islam is much more important. Look at every country in the middle east. They don't care about the Palestinians. They don't care when Assad butchers his own people or Saudi Arabia kills people in Yemen. And yet they all still hate Israel. It is because of ideology, not because of oppression. To be fair the same can still be said for the fanatical Christians in southern USA. Yes it can. If they gain power we are in serious trouble.
Oh, I've figured it out. When Muslims are fanatical (Hamas), it's bad. When Christians are fanatical (KKK), it's bad. When Jews are fanatical (Zionists), it's not bad.
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So, is there a distinction of the people of Israel and Jews in general? I don't recall ever hearing that distinction, Infact often disagreement, criticism, hate, disgust, murder of one is automatically associated with the other.
And if so, doesn't that mean the state and religion are no longer separate in this case? And the issues that this brings are at play today in israel?
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On December 28 2023 23:01 Byo wrote:
So, is there a distinction of the people of Israel and Jews in general? I don't recall ever hearing that distinction, Infact often disagreement, criticism, hate, disgust, murder of one is automatically associated with the other.
And if so, doesn't that mean the state and religion are no longer separate in this case? And the issues that this brings are at play today in israel?
Yes. You have non-israeli jews who are "pro-palestine". Non-jewish israelis who are "pro-palestine". Israeli Jews who are "pro-palestine". Non-Jewish non-israelis who are "pro-palestine".
That number is increasing particularly among younger populations, especially in America.
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On December 29 2023 00:15 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 19:36 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 11:35 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 10:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 09:54 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 08:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:29 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
You still don't understand. Hamas has two goals. One is to liberate Palestinians from Israel. The other is to rule people in the aftermath. These are not contradictory goals.
You also don't understand that we're not excusing their behavior, we're explaining it. We can condemn them, but we can also understand where they're coming from. No, you do not understand. You are giving them western values that they do not have, nor profess to have. You don’t use the human shield strategy with women and children of people you value. No, you do not understand. I'm not arguing that Hamas are good people. They are evil through and through. That changes nothing about them wanting to liberate Palestinians. They believe that, for the sake of liberation, it is justified to sacrifice Palestinians, too. Sorry you’re wrong, Hamas is just Irans puppets and their leadership cares as little about the Palestinians as Israel and treats them worse. Edit: your original post I argued you said that Hamas wants to liberate Palestinians which is not true, they want to be the only oppressor and you stated they are not currently oppressing which is also blatantly false for all Palestinians but no way you can not argue that they are not oppressing all the women. Hamas are much more than just puppets with guns. They have their own agenda, their own world view. They're sponsored by terrorist states, but at the end of the day they're all individual Palestinians sacrificing their lives for the same goal. They didn't just suddenly get money from a terrorist state and that turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths. That's not how this works. Their desire to kill every Jew did not come from surrounding states, it came from within Gaza. They were born into an oppressive environment that is breeding ground for extremism. The money only funds them, but their views were inherited from their close environment. Most Hamas members believe that they're being righteous. They're on a crusade against an evil oppressor. They do not believe that they're in the wrong. They work tirelessly to find new ways to destroy Israel, and this drive comes from a deep hatred for their oppressors. And that's the fundamental problem. Hamas are indeed up against an oppressor. If Israel was peaceful, not showing any meaningful aggression against Palestinians, then Hamas would be nothing but a farce. A lie. They would be literally like the Nazis. Comic book villains practically. But unfortunately Hamas are born into oppression, and that changes the equation quite dramatically. It means that Hamas are not puppets, they're authentic. They'd want to destroy Israel regardless of who leads them. Hamas do want to liberate Palestinians. They think that Israel is evil through and through. This is how they justify their own evil actions. They ask a simple question: if they're up against the greatest of all evils, and if this evil cannot be defeated with goodness, then why wouldn't Hamas be permitted - or required - to commit evil, too? Their thinking is of course a fallacy, but it is a very understandable fallacy when you understand where Hamas are coming from. Oppressed from birth, with no future. Maybe then you can see why they become so radicalized out of their own volition. They're self-determined. You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil. The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7. Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil. First you might be talking about their general brainwashed foot soldier and not their ultra wealthy leadership. And I’m sure some of them have some thoughts of righteousness but I would suspect most are driven by hate. I’m also sure that some of the Russian soldiers have drank the propaganda and believe they are righteously denazifying Ukraine and saving them from the Western oppression. So why exactly do you not talk about Russians the way you do Hamas? You writing he Hamas was born and he they recruit does not help your point. I am completely aware that the Hamas leadership is using the Israeli aggression and oppression to further their own goals and use the Palestinians as a worthless meat shield to accomplish them. That is a large part of my point. If most of you just admitted that you thought of Hamas as freedom fighters forced to do awful things by the evil Israelis, we could have a discussion on why I would disagree with that. But this pretending to try to keep some art of high ground does not allow for actual discussion. Pick a lane on the Hamas organization. Yes I feel sorry for the brainwashed foot soldiers and civilians being sacrificed. But I was one of the few who felt bad for the same Russians. Many of you had no pity for the Russians but tons for Hamas. Yes, I'm focusing on the totality of Hamas members, not just their leaders. I think Hamas has a solid belief structure that doesn't require any specific figure at the top. The leaders are interchangeable because they all share their hatred for Israel. Their anger is very targeted, and a different leader could easily channel that anger in the same direction because it's so authentic. This is also part of why I don't believe Hamas can be destroyed militarily. Furthermore, hatred is not antithetical to righteousness. Even cruelty can be a result of zealotry from an extreme sense of justice, especially when coupled with hopelessness. There's a reason why the most feared man is the one with nothing to lose. I believe that most Hamas members feel righteous and that is what drives their hatred. They have the motivation to work every day and night on vast tunnel systems for several years. Theyre fanatic. They believe they're in a war against evil. This is what gets them out of bed every morning, otherwise they wouldn't be able to do all of this for such a long time. It's easy for us to say that their understanding of freedom and justice is warped, but if we were born in Gaza we'd likely have a different understanding of these words. Israel is a democratic country. Well then how do you explain to people in Gaza that democracy is not responsible for the oppression of Palestinians? If the Israeli people are electing an oppressive regime, then how can they not be considered evil? It's a simplistic understanding of democracy, but hard to argue with when you're the one who's oppressed. You might have a point if Hamas was fighting against the Israeli military and government. Once you purposefully murder infants, gang rape, torture and so on, you lose all credibility. That goes for all who ordered it, planned and trained for it, participated (implicitly as well) and celebrated it. Which is basically your entire Hamas organization. Stop trying to justify the unjustifiable, you can criticize Isreal without doing it and you lose all credibility when you do. No one should be apologetic or trying to justify what they have done, what they are about , or who they are. As I explained, Hamas believe that the Israeli military and government is a direct result of the Israeli population. One leads to the other. That is how Hamas justifies mass slaughtering innocent civilians. It's not a very difficult logic to grasp, and you should really have noticed by now that it's not my logic, it's theirs. Hamas is using this logic. They think it's justified to kill the Jews because they think that Jews create oppression. Their views would be much easier to argue against if the State of Israel (not the Jewish people) didn't oppress Palestinians. But it does, and it has done so for many decades. As a democratic country, the people of Israel share some responsibility for the actions of its government. The way Hamas sees it, Jews don't just share responsibility, they have all the responsibility. And that would make all Jewish people evil in Hamas' eyes. You are not casting the net wide enough. They believe everyone who does not believe their version of their religion should die. Not just Jews or even just Israelis.
I don't see how that makes a difference to the point. Hamas are only evil from our perspective, not from their own. And as long as Israel is oppressing Palestinians, they have that one very valid point which they can keep using to feed their views and garner support. The fact that Hamas are supremacists beyond just the Palestine region and beyond just the Jewish people changes very little about these points.
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On December 29 2023 00:36 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 00:25 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:15 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 19:36 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 11:35 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 10:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 09:54 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 08:38 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
No, you do not understand. I'm not arguing that Hamas are good people. They are evil through and through. That changes nothing about them wanting to liberate Palestinians. They believe that, for the sake of liberation, it is justified to sacrifice Palestinians, too. Sorry you’re wrong, Hamas is just Irans puppets and their leadership cares as little about the Palestinians as Israel and treats them worse. Edit: your original post I argued you said that Hamas wants to liberate Palestinians which is not true, they want to be the only oppressor and you stated they are not currently oppressing which is also blatantly false for all Palestinians but no way you can not argue that they are not oppressing all the women. Hamas are much more than just puppets with guns. They have their own agenda, their own world view. They're sponsored by terrorist states, but at the end of the day they're all individual Palestinians sacrificing their lives for the same goal. They didn't just suddenly get money from a terrorist state and that turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths. That's not how this works. Their desire to kill every Jew did not come from surrounding states, it came from within Gaza. They were born into an oppressive environment that is breeding ground for extremism. The money only funds them, but their views were inherited from their close environment. Most Hamas members believe that they're being righteous. They're on a crusade against an evil oppressor. They do not believe that they're in the wrong. They work tirelessly to find new ways to destroy Israel, and this drive comes from a deep hatred for their oppressors. And that's the fundamental problem. Hamas are indeed up against an oppressor. If Israel was peaceful, not showing any meaningful aggression against Palestinians, then Hamas would be nothing but a farce. A lie. They would be literally like the Nazis. Comic book villains practically. But unfortunately Hamas are born into oppression, and that changes the equation quite dramatically. It means that Hamas are not puppets, they're authentic. They'd want to destroy Israel regardless of who leads them. Hamas do want to liberate Palestinians. They think that Israel is evil through and through. This is how they justify their own evil actions. They ask a simple question: if they're up against the greatest of all evils, and if this evil cannot be defeated with goodness, then why wouldn't Hamas be permitted - or required - to commit evil, too? Their thinking is of course a fallacy, but it is a very understandable fallacy when you understand where Hamas are coming from. Oppressed from birth, with no future. Maybe then you can see why they become so radicalized out of their own volition. They're self-determined. You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil. The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7. Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil. First you might be talking about their general brainwashed foot soldier and not their ultra wealthy leadership. And I’m sure some of them have some thoughts of righteousness but I would suspect most are driven by hate. I’m also sure that some of the Russian soldiers have drank the propaganda and believe they are righteously denazifying Ukraine and saving them from the Western oppression. So why exactly do you not talk about Russians the way you do Hamas? You writing he Hamas was born and he they recruit does not help your point. I am completely aware that the Hamas leadership is using the Israeli aggression and oppression to further their own goals and use the Palestinians as a worthless meat shield to accomplish them. That is a large part of my point. If most of you just admitted that you thought of Hamas as freedom fighters forced to do awful things by the evil Israelis, we could have a discussion on why I would disagree with that. But this pretending to try to keep some art of high ground does not allow for actual discussion. Pick a lane on the Hamas organization. Yes I feel sorry for the brainwashed foot soldiers and civilians being sacrificed. But I was one of the few who felt bad for the same Russians. Many of you had no pity for the Russians but tons for Hamas. Yes, I'm focusing on the totality of Hamas members, not just their leaders. I think Hamas has a solid belief structure that doesn't require any specific figure at the top. The leaders are interchangeable because they all share their hatred for Israel. Their anger is very targeted, and a different leader could easily channel that anger in the same direction because it's so authentic. This is also part of why I don't believe Hamas can be destroyed militarily. Furthermore, hatred is not antithetical to righteousness. Even cruelty can be a result of zealotry from an extreme sense of justice, especially when coupled with hopelessness. There's a reason why the most feared man is the one with nothing to lose. I believe that most Hamas members feel righteous and that is what drives their hatred. They have the motivation to work every day and night on vast tunnel systems for several years. Theyre fanatic. They believe they're in a war against evil. This is what gets them out of bed every morning, otherwise they wouldn't be able to do all of this for such a long time. It's easy for us to say that their understanding of freedom and justice is warped, but if we were born in Gaza we'd likely have a different understanding of these words. Israel is a democratic country. Well then how do you explain to people in Gaza that democracy is not responsible for the oppression of Palestinians? If the Israeli people are electing an oppressive regime, then how can they not be considered evil? It's a simplistic understanding of democracy, but hard to argue with when you're the one who's oppressed. You might have a point if Hamas was fighting against the Israeli military and government. Once you purposefully murder infants, gang rape, torture and so on, you lose all credibility. That goes for all who ordered it, planned and trained for it, participated (implicitly as well) and celebrated it. Which is basically your entire Hamas organization. Stop trying to justify the unjustifiable, you can criticize Isreal without doing it and you lose all credibility when you do. No one should be apologetic or trying to justify what they have done, what they are about , or who they are. As I explained, Hamas believe that the Israeli military and government is a direct result of the Israeli population. One leads to the other. That is how Hamas justifies mass slaughtering innocent civilians. It's not a very difficult logic to grasp, and you should really have noticed by now that it's not my logic, it's theirs. Hamas is using this logic. They think it's justified to kill the Jews because they think that Jews create oppression. Their views would be much easier to argue against if the State of Israel (not the Jewish people) didn't oppress Palestinians. But it does, and it has done so for many decades. As a democratic country, the people of Israel share some responsibility for the actions of its government. The way Hamas sees it, Jews don't just share responsibility, they have all the responsibility. And that would make all Jewish people evil in Hamas' eyes. You are not casting the net wide enough. They believe everyone who does not believe their version of their religion should die. Not just Jews or even just Israelis. I don't see how that makes a difference to the point. Hamas are only evil from our perspective, not from their own. And as long as Israel is oppressing Palestinians, they have that one very valid point which they can keep using to feed their views and garner support. The fact that Hamas are supremacists beyond just the Palestine region and beyond just the Jewish people changes very little about these points. Nazi's are only evil from our perspective, not their own. Either you are making a grass is green point or no point at all.
Nazis never had an oppressor. Palestinians do. This is why Hamas has a much more legit reason than the Nazis did to garner support.
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On December 29 2023 01:33 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 00:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:36 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:25 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:15 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 19:36 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 11:35 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 10:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 09:54 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Hamas are much more than just puppets with guns. They have their own agenda, their own world view. They're sponsored by terrorist states, but at the end of the day they're all individual Palestinians sacrificing their lives for the same goal. They didn't just suddenly get money from a terrorist state and that turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths. That's not how this works. Their desire to kill every Jew did not come from surrounding states, it came from within Gaza. They were born into an oppressive environment that is breeding ground for extremism. The money only funds them, but their views were inherited from their close environment. Most Hamas members believe that they're being righteous. They're on a crusade against an evil oppressor. They do not believe that they're in the wrong. They work tirelessly to find new ways to destroy Israel, and this drive comes from a deep hatred for their oppressors.
And that's the fundamental problem. Hamas are indeed up against an oppressor. If Israel was peaceful, not showing any meaningful aggression against Palestinians, then Hamas would be nothing but a farce. A lie. They would be literally like the Nazis. Comic book villains practically. But unfortunately Hamas are born into oppression, and that changes the equation quite dramatically. It means that Hamas are not puppets, they're authentic. They'd want to destroy Israel regardless of who leads them.
Hamas do want to liberate Palestinians. They think that Israel is evil through and through. This is how they justify their own evil actions. They ask a simple question: if they're up against the greatest of all evils, and if this evil cannot be defeated with goodness, then why wouldn't Hamas be permitted - or required - to commit evil, too?
Their thinking is of course a fallacy, but it is a very understandable fallacy when you understand where Hamas are coming from. Oppressed from birth, with no future. Maybe then you can see why they become so radicalized out of their own volition. They're self-determined.
You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil.
The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7.
Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil. First you might be talking about their general brainwashed foot soldier and not their ultra wealthy leadership. And I’m sure some of them have some thoughts of righteousness but I would suspect most are driven by hate. I’m also sure that some of the Russian soldiers have drank the propaganda and believe they are righteously denazifying Ukraine and saving them from the Western oppression. So why exactly do you not talk about Russians the way you do Hamas? You writing he Hamas was born and he they recruit does not help your point. I am completely aware that the Hamas leadership is using the Israeli aggression and oppression to further their own goals and use the Palestinians as a worthless meat shield to accomplish them. That is a large part of my point. If most of you just admitted that you thought of Hamas as freedom fighters forced to do awful things by the evil Israelis, we could have a discussion on why I would disagree with that. But this pretending to try to keep some art of high ground does not allow for actual discussion. Pick a lane on the Hamas organization. Yes I feel sorry for the brainwashed foot soldiers and civilians being sacrificed. But I was one of the few who felt bad for the same Russians. Many of you had no pity for the Russians but tons for Hamas. Yes, I'm focusing on the totality of Hamas members, not just their leaders. I think Hamas has a solid belief structure that doesn't require any specific figure at the top. The leaders are interchangeable because they all share their hatred for Israel. Their anger is very targeted, and a different leader could easily channel that anger in the same direction because it's so authentic. This is also part of why I don't believe Hamas can be destroyed militarily. Furthermore, hatred is not antithetical to righteousness. Even cruelty can be a result of zealotry from an extreme sense of justice, especially when coupled with hopelessness. There's a reason why the most feared man is the one with nothing to lose. I believe that most Hamas members feel righteous and that is what drives their hatred. They have the motivation to work every day and night on vast tunnel systems for several years. Theyre fanatic. They believe they're in a war against evil. This is what gets them out of bed every morning, otherwise they wouldn't be able to do all of this for such a long time. It's easy for us to say that their understanding of freedom and justice is warped, but if we were born in Gaza we'd likely have a different understanding of these words. Israel is a democratic country. Well then how do you explain to people in Gaza that democracy is not responsible for the oppression of Palestinians? If the Israeli people are electing an oppressive regime, then how can they not be considered evil? It's a simplistic understanding of democracy, but hard to argue with when you're the one who's oppressed. You might have a point if Hamas was fighting against the Israeli military and government. Once you purposefully murder infants, gang rape, torture and so on, you lose all credibility. That goes for all who ordered it, planned and trained for it, participated (implicitly as well) and celebrated it. Which is basically your entire Hamas organization. Stop trying to justify the unjustifiable, you can criticize Isreal without doing it and you lose all credibility when you do. No one should be apologetic or trying to justify what they have done, what they are about , or who they are. As I explained, Hamas believe that the Israeli military and government is a direct result of the Israeli population. One leads to the other. That is how Hamas justifies mass slaughtering innocent civilians. It's not a very difficult logic to grasp, and you should really have noticed by now that it's not my logic, it's theirs. Hamas is using this logic. They think it's justified to kill the Jews because they think that Jews create oppression. Their views would be much easier to argue against if the State of Israel (not the Jewish people) didn't oppress Palestinians. But it does, and it has done so for many decades. As a democratic country, the people of Israel share some responsibility for the actions of its government. The way Hamas sees it, Jews don't just share responsibility, they have all the responsibility. And that would make all Jewish people evil in Hamas' eyes. You are not casting the net wide enough. They believe everyone who does not believe their version of their religion should die. Not just Jews or even just Israelis. I don't see how that makes a difference to the point. Hamas are only evil from our perspective, not from their own. And as long as Israel is oppressing Palestinians, they have that one very valid point which they can keep using to feed their views and garner support. The fact that Hamas are supremacists beyond just the Palestine region and beyond just the Jewish people changes very little about these points. Nazi's are only evil from our perspective, not their own. Either you are making a grass is green point or no point at all. Nazis never had an oppressor. Palestinians do. This is why Hamas has a much more legit reason than the Nazis did to garner support. Hamas is also an oppressor, not a liberator.
Plenty of Palestinians (and other Arabs) believe they are freedom fighters. That they want a different Palestinian society than you or I think is free or just has little to do with the idea that Palestina is being oppressed by Israel and Hamas are fighting Israel.
I think Hamas ruling Palestina will be disastrous for the Palestinians. But lots of *them* don't...
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On December 29 2023 01:33 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 00:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:36 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:25 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:15 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 19:36 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 11:35 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 10:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 09:54 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Hamas are much more than just puppets with guns. They have their own agenda, their own world view. They're sponsored by terrorist states, but at the end of the day they're all individual Palestinians sacrificing their lives for the same goal. They didn't just suddenly get money from a terrorist state and that turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths. That's not how this works. Their desire to kill every Jew did not come from surrounding states, it came from within Gaza. They were born into an oppressive environment that is breeding ground for extremism. The money only funds them, but their views were inherited from their close environment. Most Hamas members believe that they're being righteous. They're on a crusade against an evil oppressor. They do not believe that they're in the wrong. They work tirelessly to find new ways to destroy Israel, and this drive comes from a deep hatred for their oppressors.
And that's the fundamental problem. Hamas are indeed up against an oppressor. If Israel was peaceful, not showing any meaningful aggression against Palestinians, then Hamas would be nothing but a farce. A lie. They would be literally like the Nazis. Comic book villains practically. But unfortunately Hamas are born into oppression, and that changes the equation quite dramatically. It means that Hamas are not puppets, they're authentic. They'd want to destroy Israel regardless of who leads them.
Hamas do want to liberate Palestinians. They think that Israel is evil through and through. This is how they justify their own evil actions. They ask a simple question: if they're up against the greatest of all evils, and if this evil cannot be defeated with goodness, then why wouldn't Hamas be permitted - or required - to commit evil, too?
Their thinking is of course a fallacy, but it is a very understandable fallacy when you understand where Hamas are coming from. Oppressed from birth, with no future. Maybe then you can see why they become so radicalized out of their own volition. They're self-determined.
You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil.
The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7.
Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil. First you might be talking about their general brainwashed foot soldier and not their ultra wealthy leadership. And I’m sure some of them have some thoughts of righteousness but I would suspect most are driven by hate. I’m also sure that some of the Russian soldiers have drank the propaganda and believe they are righteously denazifying Ukraine and saving them from the Western oppression. So why exactly do you not talk about Russians the way you do Hamas? You writing he Hamas was born and he they recruit does not help your point. I am completely aware that the Hamas leadership is using the Israeli aggression and oppression to further their own goals and use the Palestinians as a worthless meat shield to accomplish them. That is a large part of my point. If most of you just admitted that you thought of Hamas as freedom fighters forced to do awful things by the evil Israelis, we could have a discussion on why I would disagree with that. But this pretending to try to keep some art of high ground does not allow for actual discussion. Pick a lane on the Hamas organization. Yes I feel sorry for the brainwashed foot soldiers and civilians being sacrificed. But I was one of the few who felt bad for the same Russians. Many of you had no pity for the Russians but tons for Hamas. Yes, I'm focusing on the totality of Hamas members, not just their leaders. I think Hamas has a solid belief structure that doesn't require any specific figure at the top. The leaders are interchangeable because they all share their hatred for Israel. Their anger is very targeted, and a different leader could easily channel that anger in the same direction because it's so authentic. This is also part of why I don't believe Hamas can be destroyed militarily. Furthermore, hatred is not antithetical to righteousness. Even cruelty can be a result of zealotry from an extreme sense of justice, especially when coupled with hopelessness. There's a reason why the most feared man is the one with nothing to lose. I believe that most Hamas members feel righteous and that is what drives their hatred. They have the motivation to work every day and night on vast tunnel systems for several years. Theyre fanatic. They believe they're in a war against evil. This is what gets them out of bed every morning, otherwise they wouldn't be able to do all of this for such a long time. It's easy for us to say that their understanding of freedom and justice is warped, but if we were born in Gaza we'd likely have a different understanding of these words. Israel is a democratic country. Well then how do you explain to people in Gaza that democracy is not responsible for the oppression of Palestinians? If the Israeli people are electing an oppressive regime, then how can they not be considered evil? It's a simplistic understanding of democracy, but hard to argue with when you're the one who's oppressed. You might have a point if Hamas was fighting against the Israeli military and government. Once you purposefully murder infants, gang rape, torture and so on, you lose all credibility. That goes for all who ordered it, planned and trained for it, participated (implicitly as well) and celebrated it. Which is basically your entire Hamas organization. Stop trying to justify the unjustifiable, you can criticize Isreal without doing it and you lose all credibility when you do. No one should be apologetic or trying to justify what they have done, what they are about , or who they are. As I explained, Hamas believe that the Israeli military and government is a direct result of the Israeli population. One leads to the other. That is how Hamas justifies mass slaughtering innocent civilians. It's not a very difficult logic to grasp, and you should really have noticed by now that it's not my logic, it's theirs. Hamas is using this logic. They think it's justified to kill the Jews because they think that Jews create oppression. Their views would be much easier to argue against if the State of Israel (not the Jewish people) didn't oppress Palestinians. But it does, and it has done so for many decades. As a democratic country, the people of Israel share some responsibility for the actions of its government. The way Hamas sees it, Jews don't just share responsibility, they have all the responsibility. And that would make all Jewish people evil in Hamas' eyes. You are not casting the net wide enough. They believe everyone who does not believe their version of their religion should die. Not just Jews or even just Israelis. I don't see how that makes a difference to the point. Hamas are only evil from our perspective, not from their own. And as long as Israel is oppressing Palestinians, they have that one very valid point which they can keep using to feed their views and garner support. The fact that Hamas are supremacists beyond just the Palestine region and beyond just the Jewish people changes very little about these points. Nazi's are only evil from our perspective, not their own. Either you are making a grass is green point or no point at all. Nazis never had an oppressor. Palestinians do. This is why Hamas has a much more legit reason than the Nazis did to garner support. Hamas is also an oppressor, not a liberator. Edit: their clear priority is the destruction and removal of Israel. They not only were willing but their plan revolved around slaughtering, raping and torturing as many innocents in Israel as possible to provoke a attack where they could use their human shield strategy and maximize as many innocent Palestinians to die as well. Their leadership puts ZERO value on the Palestinians, they know we value all human rights and are using their deaths. Your position could easily be swapped to justify the ultra orthodox Jewish position of settlement and removal of Palestinians. If you can’t apply and agree with you argument in both directions than it’s not a good argument. It would be better for the Palestinians if Hamas did not exist.
Hamas are factually fighting against an oppressor, you cannot deny that. It's absurd that you keep deflecting from that fact.
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EPT
