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On December 28 2023 08:08 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 07:47 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. Who was the oppressor of the German people when the Nazis came to power? Name only one. Or two if you like, but I don't need more than one for the point I'm making. The French.
France oppressed Germany after WW1? In which way?
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On December 28 2023 08:10 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 08:05 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 07:48 Gorsameth wrote:On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. You seem to still be stuck trying to process that Israel is oppressing Palestinians. And therefor any discussion that derives from that point is going to go entirely over your head Because it is a nonsense idea. They have rejected every 2 state solution they have been given. They elected Hamas who said this about the Jews in their charter. "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). avalon.law.yale.eduReal freedom fighter energy there. Recognize Israel's right to exist, quit doing terror attacks, and the "oppression" ends. Or alternatively keep hating Jews, attack Israel, and keep this nonsense going for the 80 years. The two-state "solution" was a farce (every single proposal). It heavily favored the Zionists, and there was no basis for it to begin with. The Palestinian leaders were right to reject the UN resolution each time. What's more, after the State of Israel was conceived, the Zionists didn't even attempt to offer a state to the Palestinians, or to restart negotiations otherwise. They were victorious and so they saw no need to negotiate with the loser of the conflict. To them it became a matter of might makes right. This proves the Palestinians right who believed all along that the Zionists were violent invaders and not a civil force.
Israel was invaded by its neighbors and you are calling them the violent invaders? You don't get to invade, fail, and then demand everyone agree to your terms.
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On December 28 2023 08:11 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 08:08 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 07:47 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. Who was the oppressor of the German people when the Nazis came to power? Name only one. Or two if you like, but I don't need more than one for the point I'm making. The French. France oppressed Germany after WW1? In which way?
My bad I thought you were going to make a point. I am not going to play this 20 questions game.
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On December 28 2023 08:05 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 07:48 Gorsameth wrote:On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. You seem to still be stuck trying to process that Israel is oppressing Palestinians. And therefor any discussion that derives from that point is going to go entirely over your head Because it is a nonsense idea. They have rejected every 2 state solution they have been given. They elected Hamas who said this about the Jews in their charter. Show nested quote +"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). avalon.law.yale.eduReal freedom fighter energy there. Recognize Israel's right to exist, quit doing terror attacks, and the "oppression" ends. Or alternatively keep hating Jews, attack Israel, and keep this nonsense going for the 80 years.
Again, this is just you saying that the oppression is justified because the Palestinians are behaving badly. It doesn't change the nature of what is happening.
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On December 28 2023 08:22 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 08:10 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:05 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 07:48 Gorsameth wrote:On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. You seem to still be stuck trying to process that Israel is oppressing Palestinians. And therefor any discussion that derives from that point is going to go entirely over your head Because it is a nonsense idea. They have rejected every 2 state solution they have been given. They elected Hamas who said this about the Jews in their charter. "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). avalon.law.yale.eduReal freedom fighter energy there. Recognize Israel's right to exist, quit doing terror attacks, and the "oppression" ends. Or alternatively keep hating Jews, attack Israel, and keep this nonsense going for the 80 years. The two-state "solution" was a farce (every single proposal). It heavily favored the Zionists, and there was no basis for it to begin with. The Palestinian leaders were right to reject the UN resolution each time. What's more, after the State of Israel was conceived, the Zionists didn't even attempt to offer a state to the Palestinians, or to restart negotiations otherwise. They were victorious and so they saw no need to negotiate with the loser of the conflict. To them it became a matter of might makes right. This proves the Palestinians right who believed all along that the Zionists were violent invaders and not a civil force. Israel was invaded by its neighbors and you are calling them the violent invaders? You don't get to invade, fail, and then demand everyone agree to your terms.
The Zionists and their followers fought violently with the Palestinian population and won. Then the State of Israel was conveived. Then Israel was invaded. You have the timeline wrong.
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On December 28 2023 08:29 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 06:09 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 05:47 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 03:41 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 02:25 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 00:09 JimmiC wrote:On December 27 2023 19:17 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 17:41 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 27 2023 08:19 Razyda wrote:
[quote]
This somewhat reads like" Palestinians have no chance anyway, so they should just give up, instead of making things awkward." My post was not discussing Palestinians or their wider cause. It was about the governing organization of Hamas and the war that they started. A government who cared about it's people (you know, the Palestinians), would surrender at this point. Hamas is unusual among governments in that it doesn't prioritize the lives of it's people. Meanwhile, if you conflate Hamas with the Palestinians as a whole, you will make it quite awkward for the users here who are claiming that no one on this thread supports Hamas. A government that cares about its people makes sure that those people aren't oppressed. You can disagree with Hamas all you want, you can hate what they do, but they are indeed doing the best they can (from their point of view) to liberate Palestinians from oppression. You may condemn their methods, and I certainly do, but that doesn't change anything about the fact that Palestinians are oppressed, and that oppression is NOT because of Hamas. This is absolutely not true, Hamas wishes to oppress a larger area then they currently do. Hamas is all about oppression. Please explain the freedom Hamas will bring, especially for the women of Gaza and Israel if they are successful in its conquest. You can not claim you do believe Hamas is freedom fighters sometimes and then describe them as freedom fighters in other posts. Pick a lane. I didn't say Hamas will in fact bring freedom to Palestinians, I said Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. This is from their point of view. They think Palestinians are oppressed because they're under Israel's thumb. Hamas believe that they can liberate them. You can question Hamas all you want, you can argue as much as you want that they're in the wrong. You will get all of my support on that. It changes nothing about the fact that Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel, and that this is a major reason why Hamas exists. I disagree, Hamas exists to destroy Israel and institute Sharia law. Their intentions are not even that well hidden. Iran does not pretend to care about anyone but their own. It’s westerns who give this strange light of goodness by their own values that just simply do not exist. In our eyes Sharia Law is oppressive, but for Hamas it's the only correct way to live. Liberation has a different meaning for religious fundamentalists than it does for people in more liberal countries like ours. It's also important to show that, just because Israel has a more progressive or liberal approach to its social norms compared to various Arab nations, that doesn't mean that their own oppression of Palestinians can be excused. As always, two wrongs don't make a right. Palestinians need to figure out their own liberation after they've received freedom from Israel's oppression. I didn’t say what you are saying I did. Bottom line is Hamas intentions have nothing to do with freeing the Palestinians. They are an arm of Iran which is trying to rule the entiee Middle East for only those who think exactly like them and only those with the proper birthright to rule. That you and many others excuse this behaviour is wrong to me and confused me. They are worse objectively than all the fascists everyone is willing to kill. No need to excuse it, because I don’t give a fuck if they believe a warped version of Islam gives them the divine right any more than I would some wacky evil Christian faith. You still don't understand. Hamas has two goals. One is to liberate Palestinians from Israel. The other is to rule people in the aftermath. These are not contradictory goals. You also don't understand that we're not excusing their behavior, we're explaining it. We can condemn them, but we can also understand where they're coming from. No, you do not understand. You are giving them western values that they do not have, nor profess to have. You don’t use the human shield strategy with women and children of people you value.
No, you do not understand. I'm not arguing that Hamas are good people. They are evil through and through. That changes nothing about them wanting to liberate Palestinians. They believe that, for the sake of liberation, it is justified to sacrifice Palestinians, too.
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On December 28 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 08:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:29 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 06:09 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 05:47 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 03:41 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 02:25 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 00:09 JimmiC wrote:On December 27 2023 19:17 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
A government that cares about its people makes sure that those people aren't oppressed. You can disagree with Hamas all you want, you can hate what they do, but they are indeed doing the best they can (from their point of view) to liberate Palestinians from oppression. You may condemn their methods, and I certainly do, but that doesn't change anything about the fact that Palestinians are oppressed, and that oppression is NOT because of Hamas. This is absolutely not true, Hamas wishes to oppress a larger area then they currently do. Hamas is all about oppression. Please explain the freedom Hamas will bring, especially for the women of Gaza and Israel if they are successful in its conquest. You can not claim you do believe Hamas is freedom fighters sometimes and then describe them as freedom fighters in other posts. Pick a lane. I didn't say Hamas will in fact bring freedom to Palestinians, I said Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. This is from their point of view. They think Palestinians are oppressed because they're under Israel's thumb. Hamas believe that they can liberate them. You can question Hamas all you want, you can argue as much as you want that they're in the wrong. You will get all of my support on that. It changes nothing about the fact that Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel, and that this is a major reason why Hamas exists. I disagree, Hamas exists to destroy Israel and institute Sharia law. Their intentions are not even that well hidden. Iran does not pretend to care about anyone but their own. It’s westerns who give this strange light of goodness by their own values that just simply do not exist. In our eyes Sharia Law is oppressive, but for Hamas it's the only correct way to live. Liberation has a different meaning for religious fundamentalists than it does for people in more liberal countries like ours. It's also important to show that, just because Israel has a more progressive or liberal approach to its social norms compared to various Arab nations, that doesn't mean that their own oppression of Palestinians can be excused. As always, two wrongs don't make a right. Palestinians need to figure out their own liberation after they've received freedom from Israel's oppression. I didn’t say what you are saying I did. Bottom line is Hamas intentions have nothing to do with freeing the Palestinians. They are an arm of Iran which is trying to rule the entiee Middle East for only those who think exactly like them and only those with the proper birthright to rule. That you and many others excuse this behaviour is wrong to me and confused me. They are worse objectively than all the fascists everyone is willing to kill. No need to excuse it, because I don’t give a fuck if they believe a warped version of Islam gives them the divine right any more than I would some wacky evil Christian faith. You still don't understand. Hamas has two goals. One is to liberate Palestinians from Israel. The other is to rule people in the aftermath. These are not contradictory goals. You also don't understand that we're not excusing their behavior, we're explaining it. We can condemn them, but we can also understand where they're coming from. No, you do not understand. You are giving them western values that they do not have, nor profess to have. You don’t use the human shield strategy with women and children of people you value. No, you do not understand. I'm not arguing that Hamas are good people. They are evil through and through. That changes nothing about them wanting to liberate Palestinians. They believe that, for the sake of liberation, it is justified to sacrifice Palestinians, too. Sorry you’re wrong, Hamas is just Irans puppets and their leadership cares as little about the Palestinians as Israel and treats them worse. Edit: your original post I argued you said that Hamas wants to liberate Palestinians which is not true, they want to be the only oppressor and you stated they are not currently oppressing which is also blatantly false for all Palestinians but no way you can not argue that they are not oppressing all the women.
Hamas are much more than just puppets with guns. They have their own agenda, their own world view. They're sponsored by terrorist states, but at the end of the day they're all individual Palestinians sacrificing their lives for the same goal. They didn't just suddenly get money from a terrorist state and that turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths. That's not how this works. Their desire to kill every Jew did not come from surrounding states, it came from within Gaza. They were born into an oppressive environment that is breeding ground for extremism. The money only funds them, but their views were inherited from their close environment. Most Hamas members believe that they're being righteous. They're on a crusade against an evil oppressor. They do not believe that they're in the wrong. They work tirelessly to find new ways to destroy Israel, and this drive comes from a deep hatred for their oppressors.
And that's the fundamental problem. Hamas are indeed up against an oppressor. If Israel was peaceful, not showing any meaningful aggression against Palestinians, then Hamas would be nothing but a farce. A lie. They would be literally like the Nazis. Comic book villains practically. But unfortunately Hamas are born into oppression, and that changes the equation quite dramatically. It means that Hamas are not puppets, they're authentic. They'd want to destroy Israel regardless of who leads them.
Hamas do want to liberate Palestinians. They think that Israel is evil through and through. This is how they justify their own evil actions. They ask a simple question: if they're up against the greatest of all evils, and if this evil cannot be defeated with goodness, then why wouldn't Hamas be permitted - or required - to commit evil, too?
Their thinking is of course a fallacy, but it is a very understandable fallacy when you understand where Hamas are coming from. Oppressed from birth, with no future. Maybe then you can see why they become so radicalized out of their own volition. They're self-determined.
You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil.
The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7.
Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil.
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On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:
You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil.
The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7.
Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil.
Big thank you for this bit. I think this is something what many fail to understand. We are mostly raised in European culture and traditions and this often makes our view of other cultures distorted. Judging one culture by the standards of another will always result in diminishing it. One of the reasons why is hard to discard this habit, is simply because it makes us feel good about ourselves (eg: look at this horrible thing they doing, we would have never done this - then comes unavoidable conclusion - we are so much better)
I realise this is somewhat of topic, but I wanted to give credits to Magic Powers (with whom I disagree on pretty much everything outside of this thread  )
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On December 28 2023 09:54 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 08:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:29 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 06:09 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 05:47 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 03:41 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 02:25 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
I didn't say Hamas will in fact bring freedom to Palestinians, I said Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. This is from their point of view. They think Palestinians are oppressed because they're under Israel's thumb. Hamas believe that they can liberate them.
You can question Hamas all you want, you can argue as much as you want that they're in the wrong. You will get all of my support on that. It changes nothing about the fact that Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel, and that this is a major reason why Hamas exists. I disagree, Hamas exists to destroy Israel and institute Sharia law. Their intentions are not even that well hidden. Iran does not pretend to care about anyone but their own. It’s westerns who give this strange light of goodness by their own values that just simply do not exist. In our eyes Sharia Law is oppressive, but for Hamas it's the only correct way to live. Liberation has a different meaning for religious fundamentalists than it does for people in more liberal countries like ours. It's also important to show that, just because Israel has a more progressive or liberal approach to its social norms compared to various Arab nations, that doesn't mean that their own oppression of Palestinians can be excused. As always, two wrongs don't make a right. Palestinians need to figure out their own liberation after they've received freedom from Israel's oppression. I didn’t say what you are saying I did. Bottom line is Hamas intentions have nothing to do with freeing the Palestinians. They are an arm of Iran which is trying to rule the entiee Middle East for only those who think exactly like them and only those with the proper birthright to rule. That you and many others excuse this behaviour is wrong to me and confused me. They are worse objectively than all the fascists everyone is willing to kill. No need to excuse it, because I don’t give a fuck if they believe a warped version of Islam gives them the divine right any more than I would some wacky evil Christian faith. You still don't understand. Hamas has two goals. One is to liberate Palestinians from Israel. The other is to rule people in the aftermath. These are not contradictory goals. You also don't understand that we're not excusing their behavior, we're explaining it. We can condemn them, but we can also understand where they're coming from. No, you do not understand. You are giving them western values that they do not have, nor profess to have. You don’t use the human shield strategy with women and children of people you value. No, you do not understand. I'm not arguing that Hamas are good people. They are evil through and through. That changes nothing about them wanting to liberate Palestinians. They believe that, for the sake of liberation, it is justified to sacrifice Palestinians, too. Sorry you’re wrong, Hamas is just Irans puppets and their leadership cares as little about the Palestinians as Israel and treats them worse. Edit: your original post I argued you said that Hamas wants to liberate Palestinians which is not true, they want to be the only oppressor and you stated they are not currently oppressing which is also blatantly false for all Palestinians but no way you can not argue that they are not oppressing all the women. Hamas are much more than just puppets with guns. They have their own agenda, their own world view. They're sponsored by terrorist states, but at the end of the day they're all individual Palestinians sacrificing their lives for the same goal. They didn't just suddenly get money from a terrorist state and that turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths. That's not how this works. Their desire to kill every Jew did not come from surrounding states, it came from within Gaza. They were born into an oppressive environment that is breeding ground for extremism. The money only funds them, but their views were inherited from their close environment. Most Hamas members believe that they're being righteous. They're on a crusade against an evil oppressor. They do not believe that they're in the wrong. They work tirelessly to find new ways to destroy Israel, and this drive comes from a deep hatred for their oppressors. And that's the fundamental problem. Hamas are indeed up against an oppressor. If Israel was peaceful, not showing any meaningful aggression against Palestinians, then Hamas would be nothing but a farce. A lie. They would be literally like the Nazis. Comic book villains practically. But unfortunately Hamas are born into oppression, and that changes the equation quite dramatically. It means that Hamas are not puppets, they're authentic. They'd want to destroy Israel regardless of who leads them. Hamas do want to liberate Palestinians. They think that Israel is evil through and through. This is how they justify their own evil actions. They ask a simple question: if they're up against the greatest of all evils, and if this evil cannot be defeated with goodness, then why wouldn't Hamas be permitted - or required - to commit evil, too? Their thinking is of course a fallacy, but it is a very understandable fallacy when you understand where Hamas are coming from. Oppressed from birth, with no future. Maybe then you can see why they become so radicalized out of their own volition. They're self-determined. You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil. The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7. Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil. First you might be talking about their general brainwashed foot soldier and not their ultra wealthy leadership. And I’m sure some of them have some thoughts of righteousness but I would suspect most are driven by hate. I’m also sure that some of the Russian soldiers have drank the propaganda and believe they are righteously denazifying Ukraine and saving them from the Western oppression. So why exactly do you not talk about Russians the way you do Hamas? You writing he Hamas was born and he they recruit does not help your point. I am completely aware that the Hamas leadership is using the Israeli aggression and oppression to further their own goals and use the Palestinians as a worthless meat shield to accomplish them. That is a large part of my point. If most of you just admitted that you thought of Hamas as freedom fighters forced to do awful things by the evil Israelis, we could have a discussion on why I would disagree with that. But this pretending to try to keep some art of high ground does not allow for actual discussion. Pick a lane on the Hamas organization. Yes I feel sorry for the brainwashed foot soldiers and civilians being sacrificed. But I was one of the few who felt bad for the same Russians. Many of you had no pity for the Russians but tons for Hamas.
Yes, I'm focusing on the totality of Hamas members, not just their leaders. I think Hamas has a solid belief structure that doesn't require any specific figure at the top. The leaders are interchangeable because they all share their hatred for Israel. Their anger is very targeted, and a different leader could easily channel that anger in the same direction because it's so authentic. This is also part of why I don't believe Hamas can be destroyed militarily.
Furthermore, hatred is not antithetical to righteousness. Even cruelty can be a result of zealotry from an extreme sense of justice, especially when coupled with hopelessness. There's a reason why the most feared man is the one with nothing to lose. I believe that most Hamas members feel righteous and that is what drives their hatred. They have the motivation to work every day and night on vast tunnel systems for several years. Theyre fanatic. They believe they're in a war against evil. This is what gets them out of bed every morning, otherwise they wouldn't be able to do all of this for such a long time.
It's easy for us to say that their understanding of freedom and justice is warped, but if we were born in Gaza we'd likely have a different understanding of these words. Israel is a democratic country. Well then how do you explain to people in Gaza that democracy is not responsible for the oppression of Palestinians? If the Israeli people are electing an oppressive regime, then how can they not be considered evil? It's a simplistic understanding of democracy, but hard to argue with when you're the one who's oppressed.
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United States42755 Posts
On December 28 2023 08:08 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 07:47 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. Who was the oppressor of the German people when the Nazis came to power? Name only one. Or two if you like, but I don't need more than one for the point I'm making. The French.
That’s an extremely stupid response.
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On December 28 2023 08:37 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 08:22 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 08:10 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:05 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 07:48 Gorsameth wrote:On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. You seem to still be stuck trying to process that Israel is oppressing Palestinians. And therefor any discussion that derives from that point is going to go entirely over your head Because it is a nonsense idea. They have rejected every 2 state solution they have been given. They elected Hamas who said this about the Jews in their charter. "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). avalon.law.yale.eduReal freedom fighter energy there. Recognize Israel's right to exist, quit doing terror attacks, and the "oppression" ends. Or alternatively keep hating Jews, attack Israel, and keep this nonsense going for the 80 years. The two-state "solution" was a farce (every single proposal). It heavily favored the Zionists, and there was no basis for it to begin with. The Palestinian leaders were right to reject the UN resolution each time. What's more, after the State of Israel was conceived, the Zionists didn't even attempt to offer a state to the Palestinians, or to restart negotiations otherwise. They were victorious and so they saw no need to negotiate with the loser of the conflict. To them it became a matter of might makes right. This proves the Palestinians right who believed all along that the Zionists were violent invaders and not a civil force. Israel was invaded by its neighbors and you are calling them the violent invaders? You don't get to invade, fail, and then demand everyone agree to your terms. The Zionists and their followers fought violently with the Palestinian population and won. Then the State of Israel was conveived. Then Israel was invaded. You have the timeline wrong.
Interestingly this phrasing about "violent Zionist invasion" seems like it is lifted straight from the Hamas charter.
Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world.
Replace the word Zionist with jew and you see what they are actually saying. Jews control the media.
The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.
The "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a made up book supposedly about plans for Jewish domination of the world. There are more examples of this.
The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews. "world Zionism" again Jews controlling the world.
This isn't about oppression. Any more than it was about oppression when Assad denied the holocaust. They are antisemites. They tell you. Believe them.
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United States42755 Posts
On December 28 2023 11:38 flashymarine wrote:
Replace the word Zionist with jew and you see what they are actually saying. Jews control the media.
Replace even more words and you get an amazing potato salad recipe.
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On December 28 2023 11:34 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 08:08 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 07:47 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. Who was the oppressor of the German people when the Nazis came to power? Name only one. Or two if you like, but I don't need more than one for the point I'm making. The French. That’s an extremely stupid response.
Read it again.
Me: Germany thought everyone oppressed them.
Him: Name someone who oppressed them. I'm about to make a great point;
Me: (Never claimed Germany was actually oppressed but willing to play along. Name a group that the Germans thought oppressed them so he will get to his point.)The French.
Him: Fails to make point, keeps asking questions.
Me: I am done with this.
You: Your response was stupid.
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On December 28 2023 09:54 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 08:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:29 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 06:09 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 05:47 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 03:41 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 02:25 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
I didn't say Hamas will in fact bring freedom to Palestinians, I said Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. This is from their point of view. They think Palestinians are oppressed because they're under Israel's thumb. Hamas believe that they can liberate them.
You can question Hamas all you want, you can argue as much as you want that they're in the wrong. You will get all of my support on that. It changes nothing about the fact that Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel, and that this is a major reason why Hamas exists. I disagree, Hamas exists to destroy Israel and institute Sharia law. Their intentions are not even that well hidden. Iran does not pretend to care about anyone but their own. It’s westerns who give this strange light of goodness by their own values that just simply do not exist. In our eyes Sharia Law is oppressive, but for Hamas it's the only correct way to live. Liberation has a different meaning for religious fundamentalists than it does for people in more liberal countries like ours. It's also important to show that, just because Israel has a more progressive or liberal approach to its social norms compared to various Arab nations, that doesn't mean that their own oppression of Palestinians can be excused. As always, two wrongs don't make a right. Palestinians need to figure out their own liberation after they've received freedom from Israel's oppression. I didn’t say what you are saying I did. Bottom line is Hamas intentions have nothing to do with freeing the Palestinians. They are an arm of Iran which is trying to rule the entiee Middle East for only those who think exactly like them and only those with the proper birthright to rule. That you and many others excuse this behaviour is wrong to me and confused me. They are worse objectively than all the fascists everyone is willing to kill. No need to excuse it, because I don’t give a fuck if they believe a warped version of Islam gives them the divine right any more than I would some wacky evil Christian faith. You still don't understand. Hamas has two goals. One is to liberate Palestinians from Israel. The other is to rule people in the aftermath. These are not contradictory goals. You also don't understand that we're not excusing their behavior, we're explaining it. We can condemn them, but we can also understand where they're coming from. No, you do not understand. You are giving them western values that they do not have, nor profess to have. You don’t use the human shield strategy with women and children of people you value. No, you do not understand. I'm not arguing that Hamas are good people. They are evil through and through. That changes nothing about them wanting to liberate Palestinians. They believe that, for the sake of liberation, it is justified to sacrifice Palestinians, too. Sorry you’re wrong, Hamas is just Irans puppets and their leadership cares as little about the Palestinians as Israel and treats them worse. Edit: your original post I argued you said that Hamas wants to liberate Palestinians which is not true, they want to be the only oppressor and you stated they are not currently oppressing which is also blatantly false for all Palestinians but no way you can not argue that they are not oppressing all the women. Hamas are much more than just puppets with guns. They have their own agenda, their own world view. They're sponsored by terrorist states, but at the end of the day they're all individual Palestinians sacrificing their lives for the same goal. They didn't just suddenly get money from a terrorist state and that turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths. That's not how this works. Their desire to kill every Jew did not come from surrounding states, it came from within Gaza. They were born into an oppressive environment that is breeding ground for extremism. The money only funds them, but their views were inherited from their close environment. Most Hamas members believe that they're being righteous. They're on a crusade against an evil oppressor. They do not believe that they're in the wrong. They work tirelessly to find new ways to destroy Israel, and this drive comes from a deep hatred for their oppressors. And that's the fundamental problem. Hamas are indeed up against an oppressor. If Israel was peaceful, not showing any meaningful aggression against Palestinians, then Hamas would be nothing but a farce. A lie. They would be literally like the Nazis. Comic book villains practically. But unfortunately Hamas are born into oppression, and that changes the equation quite dramatically. It means that Hamas are not puppets, they're authentic. They'd want to destroy Israel regardless of who leads them. Hamas do want to liberate Palestinians. They think that Israel is evil through and through. This is how they justify their own evil actions. They ask a simple question: if they're up against the greatest of all evils, and if this evil cannot be defeated with goodness, then why wouldn't Hamas be permitted - or required - to commit evil, too? Their thinking is of course a fallacy, but it is a very understandable fallacy when you understand where Hamas are coming from. Oppressed from birth, with no future. Maybe then you can see why they become so radicalized out of their own volition. They're self-determined. You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil. The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7. Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil. First you might be talking about their general brainwashed foot soldier and not their ultra wealthy leadership. And I’m sure some of them have some thoughts of righteousness but I would suspect most are driven by hate. I’m also sure that some of the Russian soldiers have drank the propaganda and believe they are righteously denazifying Ukraine and saving them from the Western oppression. So why exactly do you not talk about Russians the way you do Hamas?You writing he Hamas was born and he they recruit does not help your point. I am completely aware that the Hamas leadership is using the Israeli aggression and oppression to further their own goals and use the Palestinians as a worthless meat shield to accomplish them. That is a large part of my point. If most of you just admitted that you thought of Hamas as freedom fighters forced to do awful things by the evil Israelis, we could have a discussion on why I would disagree with that. But this pretending to try to keep some art of high ground does not allow for actual discussion. Pick a lane on the Hamas organization. Yes I feel sorry for the brainwashed foot soldiers and civilians being sacrificed. But I was one of the few who felt bad for the same Russians. Many of you had no pity for the Russians but tons for Hamas.
Probably because he views Russia as being on the opposite end of the conflict.
Aggressor vs Liberator. You, I imagine, though please correct don't align with that view, but that's kinda the crux of the matter.
Either way, it is true that Hamas can't be given that credit given the brutal and criminal nature by which they operate.
In this I believe Magic is misguided, what he is saying applies to the Palestinian fight for liberation in a general sense, Hamas' actions are unacceptable. This, however, does not in any way justify or excuse Israel's actions though.
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On December 28 2023 11:45 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 11:38 flashymarine wrote:
Replace the word Zionist with jew and you see what they are actually saying. Jews control the media. Replace even more words and you get an amazing potato salad recipe.
Amazing. And they say antisemitism is dead in this thread.
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EPT
