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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On December 28 2023 01:18 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 19:17 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 17:41 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 27 2023 08:19 Razyda wrote:On December 27 2023 03:57 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 26 2023 21:32 Salazarz wrote:On December 26 2023 14:32 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 26 2023 10:38 JimmiC wrote:On December 26 2023 10:32 Salazarz wrote:
I don't get this bit. Surely demanding a government change as a precondition for peace isn't some kind of 'show of good intentions' by an invading force, and a government refusing to resign in exchange for peace isn't some outrageous fail on their part? Like, I don't see anyone telling Zelensky to step down and let Putin decide who will rule Ukraine next, how exactly is this different. People who believe Hamas is a terrorist organization set on the genocide of the country their at war with, are figuring that Israel is not going to accept those people running the country teaching the youth to hate and planning future attacks. It is a fool me once, kind of situation. The Ukrainian comparison is awful because it was not Zelensky who launched a genocidal terroristic attack to start the war. If Ukraine was far more powerful and had counter attacked Russia after their initial attack, rapes and murder, and was demanding Putin be removed it would be a better comparison. Just to add to this, the Allies did effectively demand a change of government from Germany and Japan for them to stop fighting World War 2. (Actually they demanded unconditional surrender, which is even more than that.) If a government cares more about the lives of the people it governs over it's political goals, accepting regime change is not a crazy result for the loser of a war. Hamas will definitely not accept that because they have made very clear that they value their political goals over the lives of every man, woman, and child in Gaza (I believe they recently made a statement along the lines of "if every Palestinian died, but we destroyed Israel, we would make that trade"). However, Hamas' standards are far from the bar of defining reasonable demands or offers. So Zelensky should tell Ukrainians to lay down their arms and surrender if he wants to prove that he cares about lives of his countrymen more than his own political goals, is that what you're saying? From the perspective of a peoples that are being oppressed, surrendering and accepting a government change forced by an occupying force isn't a show of compassion, it's an admission of failure and a national humiliation. The idea that radical terrorism from Gaza would stop if the only change was that Hamas government stepped down is silly; their radicalization is fueled by the actions of Israel and forcing a government change wouldn't reduce radicalization, if anything it'd make Palestinians hate Israel even more. Terrorism in Palestine didn't begin with Hamas, and it certainly wouldn't end with it either unless other changes were made. The point is not to "prove you care about your people by surrendering," it's to actually do what's best for your people. In Ukraine's case, they can reasonably expect much better results by continuing the war than by surrendering at this point. In an alternative scenario where Russia already had military control over 70% of Ukraine and it was pretty clear that they were going to take the rest by force in short order: it would be reasonable for Ukraine to surrender rather than fighting to the death of their last man. Obviously that would be a bad result for them. But it would be the better of the alternatives provided in that scenario. There have been hundreds of governing organizations throughout history that have surrendered in the face of impending defeat. I hardly think that all of them were insane and making an irrational choice by surrendering. If you think fighting to the death is preferable, then you are a zealot (or at least you think Palestinians should be zealots) for your cause. As to your questions of will this actually be effective at deradicalizing the local population, that is really a question for Israel, not Hamas, and is a separate discussion. We can pivot to discussing most effective methods for that now if you'd like. This somewhat reads like" Palestinians have no chance anyway, so they should just give up, instead of making things awkward." My post was not discussing Palestinians or their wider cause. It was about the governing organization of Hamas and the war that they started. A government who cared about it's people (you know, the Palestinians), would surrender at this point. Hamas is unusual among governments in that it doesn't prioritize the lives of it's people. Meanwhile, if you conflate Hamas with the Palestinians as a whole, you will make it quite awkward for the users here who are claiming that no one on this thread supports Hamas. A government that cares about its people makes sure that those people aren't oppressed. You can disagree with Hamas all you want, you can hate what they do, but they are indeed doing the best they can (from their point of view) to liberate Palestinians from oppression. You may condemn their methods, and I certainly do, but that doesn't change anything about the fact that Palestinians are oppressed, and that oppression is NOT because of Hamas. I take back what I said about people in the thread not supporting Hamas.
He point blank condems them and states the uncontroversial take that in their minds they are doing what's best for their people. That's not supporting Hamas. No one here supports Hamas. You can argue he's putting too much of the burden of change on Israel and not enough on Hamas, and that's a fair argument to make, but that doesn't mean Hamas is being supported here.
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On December 28 2023 02:01 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 01:57 KwarK wrote:On December 28 2023 01:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 19:17 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 17:41 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 27 2023 08:19 Razyda wrote:On December 27 2023 03:57 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 26 2023 21:32 Salazarz wrote:On December 26 2023 14:32 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 26 2023 10:38 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
People who believe Hamas is a terrorist organization set on the genocide of the country their at war with, are figuring that Israel is not going to accept those people running the country teaching the youth to hate and planning future attacks. It is a fool me once, kind of situation.
The Ukrainian comparison is awful because it was not Zelensky who launched a genocidal terroristic attack to start the war. If Ukraine was far more powerful and had counter attacked Russia after their initial attack, rapes and murder, and was demanding Putin be removed it would be a better comparison. Just to add to this, the Allies did effectively demand a change of government from Germany and Japan for them to stop fighting World War 2. (Actually they demanded unconditional surrender, which is even more than that.) If a government cares more about the lives of the people it governs over it's political goals, accepting regime change is not a crazy result for the loser of a war. Hamas will definitely not accept that because they have made very clear that they value their political goals over the lives of every man, woman, and child in Gaza (I believe they recently made a statement along the lines of "if every Palestinian died, but we destroyed Israel, we would make that trade"). However, Hamas' standards are far from the bar of defining reasonable demands or offers. So Zelensky should tell Ukrainians to lay down their arms and surrender if he wants to prove that he cares about lives of his countrymen more than his own political goals, is that what you're saying? From the perspective of a peoples that are being oppressed, surrendering and accepting a government change forced by an occupying force isn't a show of compassion, it's an admission of failure and a national humiliation. The idea that radical terrorism from Gaza would stop if the only change was that Hamas government stepped down is silly; their radicalization is fueled by the actions of Israel and forcing a government change wouldn't reduce radicalization, if anything it'd make Palestinians hate Israel even more. Terrorism in Palestine didn't begin with Hamas, and it certainly wouldn't end with it either unless other changes were made. The point is not to "prove you care about your people by surrendering," it's to actually do what's best for your people. In Ukraine's case, they can reasonably expect much better results by continuing the war than by surrendering at this point. In an alternative scenario where Russia already had military control over 70% of Ukraine and it was pretty clear that they were going to take the rest by force in short order: it would be reasonable for Ukraine to surrender rather than fighting to the death of their last man. Obviously that would be a bad result for them. But it would be the better of the alternatives provided in that scenario. There have been hundreds of governing organizations throughout history that have surrendered in the face of impending defeat. I hardly think that all of them were insane and making an irrational choice by surrendering. If you think fighting to the death is preferable, then you are a zealot (or at least you think Palestinians should be zealots) for your cause. As to your questions of will this actually be effective at deradicalizing the local population, that is really a question for Israel, not Hamas, and is a separate discussion. We can pivot to discussing most effective methods for that now if you'd like. This somewhat reads like" Palestinians have no chance anyway, so they should just give up, instead of making things awkward." My post was not discussing Palestinians or their wider cause. It was about the governing organization of Hamas and the war that they started. A government who cared about it's people (you know, the Palestinians), would surrender at this point. Hamas is unusual among governments in that it doesn't prioritize the lives of it's people. Meanwhile, if you conflate Hamas with the Palestinians as a whole, you will make it quite awkward for the users here who are claiming that no one on this thread supports Hamas. A government that cares about its people makes sure that those people aren't oppressed. You can disagree with Hamas all you want, you can hate what they do, but they are indeed doing the best they can (from their point of view) to liberate Palestinians from oppression. You may condemn their methods, and I certainly do, but that doesn't change anything about the fact that Palestinians are oppressed, and that oppression is NOT because of Hamas. I take back what I said about people in the thread not supporting Hamas. It should be entirely uncontroversial that Hamas believe, from their point of view, that they are justified. Of course they do. They’re wrong. We all think they’re wrong, but they don’t think they’re wrong. You need to work on your reading comprehension. You’re reading things that just aren’t there. I disagree. You need to work on your reading comprehension.
I literally added that this is Hamas' point of view and that I condemn their actions. You are absolutely required to work on your reading comprehension.
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On December 28 2023 00:09 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 19:17 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 17:41 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 27 2023 08:19 Razyda wrote:On December 27 2023 03:57 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 26 2023 21:32 Salazarz wrote:On December 26 2023 14:32 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 26 2023 10:38 JimmiC wrote:On December 26 2023 10:32 Salazarz wrote:
I don't get this bit. Surely demanding a government change as a precondition for peace isn't some kind of 'show of good intentions' by an invading force, and a government refusing to resign in exchange for peace isn't some outrageous fail on their part? Like, I don't see anyone telling Zelensky to step down and let Putin decide who will rule Ukraine next, how exactly is this different. People who believe Hamas is a terrorist organization set on the genocide of the country their at war with, are figuring that Israel is not going to accept those people running the country teaching the youth to hate and planning future attacks. It is a fool me once, kind of situation. The Ukrainian comparison is awful because it was not Zelensky who launched a genocidal terroristic attack to start the war. If Ukraine was far more powerful and had counter attacked Russia after their initial attack, rapes and murder, and was demanding Putin be removed it would be a better comparison. Just to add to this, the Allies did effectively demand a change of government from Germany and Japan for them to stop fighting World War 2. (Actually they demanded unconditional surrender, which is even more than that.) If a government cares more about the lives of the people it governs over it's political goals, accepting regime change is not a crazy result for the loser of a war. Hamas will definitely not accept that because they have made very clear that they value their political goals over the lives of every man, woman, and child in Gaza (I believe they recently made a statement along the lines of "if every Palestinian died, but we destroyed Israel, we would make that trade"). However, Hamas' standards are far from the bar of defining reasonable demands or offers. So Zelensky should tell Ukrainians to lay down their arms and surrender if he wants to prove that he cares about lives of his countrymen more than his own political goals, is that what you're saying? From the perspective of a peoples that are being oppressed, surrendering and accepting a government change forced by an occupying force isn't a show of compassion, it's an admission of failure and a national humiliation. The idea that radical terrorism from Gaza would stop if the only change was that Hamas government stepped down is silly; their radicalization is fueled by the actions of Israel and forcing a government change wouldn't reduce radicalization, if anything it'd make Palestinians hate Israel even more. Terrorism in Palestine didn't begin with Hamas, and it certainly wouldn't end with it either unless other changes were made. The point is not to "prove you care about your people by surrendering," it's to actually do what's best for your people. In Ukraine's case, they can reasonably expect much better results by continuing the war than by surrendering at this point. In an alternative scenario where Russia already had military control over 70% of Ukraine and it was pretty clear that they were going to take the rest by force in short order: it would be reasonable for Ukraine to surrender rather than fighting to the death of their last man. Obviously that would be a bad result for them. But it would be the better of the alternatives provided in that scenario. There have been hundreds of governing organizations throughout history that have surrendered in the face of impending defeat. I hardly think that all of them were insane and making an irrational choice by surrendering. If you think fighting to the death is preferable, then you are a zealot (or at least you think Palestinians should be zealots) for your cause. As to your questions of will this actually be effective at deradicalizing the local population, that is really a question for Israel, not Hamas, and is a separate discussion. We can pivot to discussing most effective methods for that now if you'd like. This somewhat reads like" Palestinians have no chance anyway, so they should just give up, instead of making things awkward." My post was not discussing Palestinians or their wider cause. It was about the governing organization of Hamas and the war that they started. A government who cared about it's people (you know, the Palestinians), would surrender at this point. Hamas is unusual among governments in that it doesn't prioritize the lives of it's people. Meanwhile, if you conflate Hamas with the Palestinians as a whole, you will make it quite awkward for the users here who are claiming that no one on this thread supports Hamas. A government that cares about its people makes sure that those people aren't oppressed. You can disagree with Hamas all you want, you can hate what they do, but they are indeed doing the best they can (from their point of view) to liberate Palestinians from oppression. You may condemn their methods, and I certainly do, but that doesn't change anything about the fact that Palestinians are oppressed, and that oppression is NOT because of Hamas. This is absolutely not true, Hamas wishes to oppress a larger area then they currently do. Hamas is all about oppression. Please explain the freedom Hamas will bring, especially for the women of Gaza and Israel if they are successful in its conquest. You can not claim you do believe Hamas is freedom fighters sometimes and then describe them as freedom fighters in other posts. Pick a lane.
I didn't say Hamas will in fact bring freedom to Palestinians, I said Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. This is from their point of view. They think Palestinians are oppressed because they're under Israel's thumb. Hamas believe that they can liberate them.
You can question Hamas all you want, you can argue as much as you want that they're in the wrong. You will get all of my support on that. It changes nothing about the fact that Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel, and that this is a major reason why Hamas exists.
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United States42509 Posts
On December 28 2023 03:41 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 02:25 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 00:09 JimmiC wrote:On December 27 2023 19:17 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 17:41 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 27 2023 08:19 Razyda wrote:On December 27 2023 03:57 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 26 2023 21:32 Salazarz wrote:On December 26 2023 14:32 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 26 2023 10:38 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
People who believe Hamas is a terrorist organization set on the genocide of the country their at war with, are figuring that Israel is not going to accept those people running the country teaching the youth to hate and planning future attacks. It is a fool me once, kind of situation.
The Ukrainian comparison is awful because it was not Zelensky who launched a genocidal terroristic attack to start the war. If Ukraine was far more powerful and had counter attacked Russia after their initial attack, rapes and murder, and was demanding Putin be removed it would be a better comparison. Just to add to this, the Allies did effectively demand a change of government from Germany and Japan for them to stop fighting World War 2. (Actually they demanded unconditional surrender, which is even more than that.) If a government cares more about the lives of the people it governs over it's political goals, accepting regime change is not a crazy result for the loser of a war. Hamas will definitely not accept that because they have made very clear that they value their political goals over the lives of every man, woman, and child in Gaza (I believe they recently made a statement along the lines of "if every Palestinian died, but we destroyed Israel, we would make that trade"). However, Hamas' standards are far from the bar of defining reasonable demands or offers. So Zelensky should tell Ukrainians to lay down their arms and surrender if he wants to prove that he cares about lives of his countrymen more than his own political goals, is that what you're saying? From the perspective of a peoples that are being oppressed, surrendering and accepting a government change forced by an occupying force isn't a show of compassion, it's an admission of failure and a national humiliation. The idea that radical terrorism from Gaza would stop if the only change was that Hamas government stepped down is silly; their radicalization is fueled by the actions of Israel and forcing a government change wouldn't reduce radicalization, if anything it'd make Palestinians hate Israel even more. Terrorism in Palestine didn't begin with Hamas, and it certainly wouldn't end with it either unless other changes were made. The point is not to "prove you care about your people by surrendering," it's to actually do what's best for your people. In Ukraine's case, they can reasonably expect much better results by continuing the war than by surrendering at this point. In an alternative scenario where Russia already had military control over 70% of Ukraine and it was pretty clear that they were going to take the rest by force in short order: it would be reasonable for Ukraine to surrender rather than fighting to the death of their last man. Obviously that would be a bad result for them. But it would be the better of the alternatives provided in that scenario. There have been hundreds of governing organizations throughout history that have surrendered in the face of impending defeat. I hardly think that all of them were insane and making an irrational choice by surrendering. If you think fighting to the death is preferable, then you are a zealot (or at least you think Palestinians should be zealots) for your cause. As to your questions of will this actually be effective at deradicalizing the local population, that is really a question for Israel, not Hamas, and is a separate discussion. We can pivot to discussing most effective methods for that now if you'd like. This somewhat reads like" Palestinians have no chance anyway, so they should just give up, instead of making things awkward." My post was not discussing Palestinians or their wider cause. It was about the governing organization of Hamas and the war that they started. A government who cared about it's people (you know, the Palestinians), would surrender at this point. Hamas is unusual among governments in that it doesn't prioritize the lives of it's people. Meanwhile, if you conflate Hamas with the Palestinians as a whole, you will make it quite awkward for the users here who are claiming that no one on this thread supports Hamas. A government that cares about its people makes sure that those people aren't oppressed. You can disagree with Hamas all you want, you can hate what they do, but they are indeed doing the best they can (from their point of view) to liberate Palestinians from oppression. You may condemn their methods, and I certainly do, but that doesn't change anything about the fact that Palestinians are oppressed, and that oppression is NOT because of Hamas. This is absolutely not true, Hamas wishes to oppress a larger area then they currently do. Hamas is all about oppression. Please explain the freedom Hamas will bring, especially for the women of Gaza and Israel if they are successful in its conquest. You can not claim you do believe Hamas is freedom fighters sometimes and then describe them as freedom fighters in other posts. Pick a lane. I didn't say Hamas will in fact bring freedom to Palestinians, I said Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. This is from their point of view. They think Palestinians are oppressed because they're under Israel's thumb. Hamas believe that they can liberate them. You can question Hamas all you want, you can argue as much as you want that they're in the wrong. You will get all of my support on that. It changes nothing about the fact that Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel, and that this is a major reason why Hamas exists. I disagree, Hamas exists to destroy Israel and institute Sharia law. Their intentions are not even that well hidden. Iran does not pretend to care about anyone but their own. It’s westerns who give this strange light of goodness by their own values that just simply do not exist.
They believe destroying Israel and implementing Sharia law are good things. As a reminder, nobody here agrees with them. The extent of the claim was that they themselves believe that they’re justified.
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On December 28 2023 02:22 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 02:01 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 01:57 KwarK wrote:On December 28 2023 01:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 19:17 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 17:41 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 27 2023 08:19 Razyda wrote:On December 27 2023 03:57 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 26 2023 21:32 Salazarz wrote:On December 26 2023 14:32 Cerebrate1 wrote:
[quote]
Just to add to this, the Allies did effectively demand a change of government from Germany and Japan for them to stop fighting World War 2. (Actually they demanded unconditional surrender, which is even more than that.)
If a government cares more about the lives of the people it governs over it's political goals, accepting regime change is not a crazy result for the loser of a war.
Hamas will definitely not accept that because they have made very clear that they value their political goals over the lives of every man, woman, and child in Gaza (I believe they recently made a statement along the lines of "if every Palestinian died, but we destroyed Israel, we would make that trade"). However, Hamas' standards are far from the bar of defining reasonable demands or offers. So Zelensky should tell Ukrainians to lay down their arms and surrender if he wants to prove that he cares about lives of his countrymen more than his own political goals, is that what you're saying? From the perspective of a peoples that are being oppressed, surrendering and accepting a government change forced by an occupying force isn't a show of compassion, it's an admission of failure and a national humiliation. The idea that radical terrorism from Gaza would stop if the only change was that Hamas government stepped down is silly; their radicalization is fueled by the actions of Israel and forcing a government change wouldn't reduce radicalization, if anything it'd make Palestinians hate Israel even more. Terrorism in Palestine didn't begin with Hamas, and it certainly wouldn't end with it either unless other changes were made. The point is not to "prove you care about your people by surrendering," it's to actually do what's best for your people. In Ukraine's case, they can reasonably expect much better results by continuing the war than by surrendering at this point. In an alternative scenario where Russia already had military control over 70% of Ukraine and it was pretty clear that they were going to take the rest by force in short order: it would be reasonable for Ukraine to surrender rather than fighting to the death of their last man. Obviously that would be a bad result for them. But it would be the better of the alternatives provided in that scenario. There have been hundreds of governing organizations throughout history that have surrendered in the face of impending defeat. I hardly think that all of them were insane and making an irrational choice by surrendering. If you think fighting to the death is preferable, then you are a zealot (or at least you think Palestinians should be zealots) for your cause. As to your questions of will this actually be effective at deradicalizing the local population, that is really a question for Israel, not Hamas, and is a separate discussion. We can pivot to discussing most effective methods for that now if you'd like. This somewhat reads like" Palestinians have no chance anyway, so they should just give up, instead of making things awkward." My post was not discussing Palestinians or their wider cause. It was about the governing organization of Hamas and the war that they started. A government who cared about it's people (you know, the Palestinians), would surrender at this point. Hamas is unusual among governments in that it doesn't prioritize the lives of it's people. Meanwhile, if you conflate Hamas with the Palestinians as a whole, you will make it quite awkward for the users here who are claiming that no one on this thread supports Hamas. A government that cares about its people makes sure that those people aren't oppressed. You can disagree with Hamas all you want, you can hate what they do, but they are indeed doing the best they can (from their point of view) to liberate Palestinians from oppression. You may condemn their methods, and I certainly do, but that doesn't change anything about the fact that Palestinians are oppressed, and that oppression is NOT because of Hamas. I take back what I said about people in the thread not supporting Hamas. It should be entirely uncontroversial that Hamas believe, from their point of view, that they are justified. Of course they do. They’re wrong. We all think they’re wrong, but they don’t think they’re wrong. You need to work on your reading comprehension. You’re reading things that just aren’t there. I disagree. You need to work on your reading comprehension. I literally added that this is Hamas' point of view and that I condemn their actions. You are absolutely required to work on your reading comprehension.
You are pretending that Hamas is about Palestinian liberation when it is about the extermination of the Israeli people and the implementation of a theocratic state. Throwing an offhand comment about how you disagree with the tactics does not change this. Hamas has been very clear in their language and actions what they want.
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The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in.
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On December 28 2023 04:26 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 02:22 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 02:01 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 01:57 KwarK wrote:On December 28 2023 01:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 19:17 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 17:41 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 27 2023 08:19 Razyda wrote:On December 27 2023 03:57 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 26 2023 21:32 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
So Zelensky should tell Ukrainians to lay down their arms and surrender if he wants to prove that he cares about lives of his countrymen more than his own political goals, is that what you're saying?
From the perspective of a peoples that are being oppressed, surrendering and accepting a government change forced by an occupying force isn't a show of compassion, it's an admission of failure and a national humiliation. The idea that radical terrorism from Gaza would stop if the only change was that Hamas government stepped down is silly; their radicalization is fueled by the actions of Israel and forcing a government change wouldn't reduce radicalization, if anything it'd make Palestinians hate Israel even more. Terrorism in Palestine didn't begin with Hamas, and it certainly wouldn't end with it either unless other changes were made. The point is not to "prove you care about your people by surrendering," it's to actually do what's best for your people. In Ukraine's case, they can reasonably expect much better results by continuing the war than by surrendering at this point. In an alternative scenario where Russia already had military control over 70% of Ukraine and it was pretty clear that they were going to take the rest by force in short order: it would be reasonable for Ukraine to surrender rather than fighting to the death of their last man. Obviously that would be a bad result for them. But it would be the better of the alternatives provided in that scenario. There have been hundreds of governing organizations throughout history that have surrendered in the face of impending defeat. I hardly think that all of them were insane and making an irrational choice by surrendering. If you think fighting to the death is preferable, then you are a zealot (or at least you think Palestinians should be zealots) for your cause. As to your questions of will this actually be effective at deradicalizing the local population, that is really a question for Israel, not Hamas, and is a separate discussion. We can pivot to discussing most effective methods for that now if you'd like. This somewhat reads like" Palestinians have no chance anyway, so they should just give up, instead of making things awkward." My post was not discussing Palestinians or their wider cause. It was about the governing organization of Hamas and the war that they started. A government who cared about it's people (you know, the Palestinians), would surrender at this point. Hamas is unusual among governments in that it doesn't prioritize the lives of it's people. Meanwhile, if you conflate Hamas with the Palestinians as a whole, you will make it quite awkward for the users here who are claiming that no one on this thread supports Hamas. A government that cares about its people makes sure that those people aren't oppressed. You can disagree with Hamas all you want, you can hate what they do, but they are indeed doing the best they can (from their point of view) to liberate Palestinians from oppression. You may condemn their methods, and I certainly do, but that doesn't change anything about the fact that Palestinians are oppressed, and that oppression is NOT because of Hamas. I take back what I said about people in the thread not supporting Hamas. It should be entirely uncontroversial that Hamas believe, from their point of view, that they are justified. Of course they do. They’re wrong. We all think they’re wrong, but they don’t think they’re wrong. You need to work on your reading comprehension. You’re reading things that just aren’t there. I disagree. You need to work on your reading comprehension. I literally added that this is Hamas' point of view and that I condemn their actions. You are absolutely required to work on your reading comprehension. You are pretending that Hamas is about Palestinian liberation when it is about the extermination of the Israeli people and the implementation of a theocratic state. Throwing an offhand comment about how you disagree with the tactics does not change this. Hamas has been very clear in their language and actions what they want. And to Hamas the destruction of Israel is requires to allow for Palestinian liberation. Which makes sense when you consider Hamas arose as a response to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza following the 6 day war.
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On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in.
Yes, because the statement is obviously incorrect. The nazis weren't, from their point of view, trying to liberate the germanic people.
You can do that with most statements btw, it's not very impressive. If you replace the statement that makes sense with a statement that doesn't make sense and has the same structure, then the result sounds silly, but that's not really indicative of anything regarding the argument. This is why "Oh you identify as a woman? What if I identified as an attack helicopter!!!" isn't a serious retort.
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On December 28 2023 03:41 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 02:25 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 00:09 JimmiC wrote:On December 27 2023 19:17 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 17:41 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 27 2023 08:19 Razyda wrote:On December 27 2023 03:57 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 26 2023 21:32 Salazarz wrote:On December 26 2023 14:32 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 26 2023 10:38 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
People who believe Hamas is a terrorist organization set on the genocide of the country their at war with, are figuring that Israel is not going to accept those people running the country teaching the youth to hate and planning future attacks. It is a fool me once, kind of situation.
The Ukrainian comparison is awful because it was not Zelensky who launched a genocidal terroristic attack to start the war. If Ukraine was far more powerful and had counter attacked Russia after their initial attack, rapes and murder, and was demanding Putin be removed it would be a better comparison. Just to add to this, the Allies did effectively demand a change of government from Germany and Japan for them to stop fighting World War 2. (Actually they demanded unconditional surrender, which is even more than that.) If a government cares more about the lives of the people it governs over it's political goals, accepting regime change is not a crazy result for the loser of a war. Hamas will definitely not accept that because they have made very clear that they value their political goals over the lives of every man, woman, and child in Gaza (I believe they recently made a statement along the lines of "if every Palestinian died, but we destroyed Israel, we would make that trade"). However, Hamas' standards are far from the bar of defining reasonable demands or offers. So Zelensky should tell Ukrainians to lay down their arms and surrender if he wants to prove that he cares about lives of his countrymen more than his own political goals, is that what you're saying? From the perspective of a peoples that are being oppressed, surrendering and accepting a government change forced by an occupying force isn't a show of compassion, it's an admission of failure and a national humiliation. The idea that radical terrorism from Gaza would stop if the only change was that Hamas government stepped down is silly; their radicalization is fueled by the actions of Israel and forcing a government change wouldn't reduce radicalization, if anything it'd make Palestinians hate Israel even more. Terrorism in Palestine didn't begin with Hamas, and it certainly wouldn't end with it either unless other changes were made. The point is not to "prove you care about your people by surrendering," it's to actually do what's best for your people. In Ukraine's case, they can reasonably expect much better results by continuing the war than by surrendering at this point. In an alternative scenario where Russia already had military control over 70% of Ukraine and it was pretty clear that they were going to take the rest by force in short order: it would be reasonable for Ukraine to surrender rather than fighting to the death of their last man. Obviously that would be a bad result for them. But it would be the better of the alternatives provided in that scenario. There have been hundreds of governing organizations throughout history that have surrendered in the face of impending defeat. I hardly think that all of them were insane and making an irrational choice by surrendering. If you think fighting to the death is preferable, then you are a zealot (or at least you think Palestinians should be zealots) for your cause. As to your questions of will this actually be effective at deradicalizing the local population, that is really a question for Israel, not Hamas, and is a separate discussion. We can pivot to discussing most effective methods for that now if you'd like. This somewhat reads like" Palestinians have no chance anyway, so they should just give up, instead of making things awkward." My post was not discussing Palestinians or their wider cause. It was about the governing organization of Hamas and the war that they started. A government who cared about it's people (you know, the Palestinians), would surrender at this point. Hamas is unusual among governments in that it doesn't prioritize the lives of it's people. Meanwhile, if you conflate Hamas with the Palestinians as a whole, you will make it quite awkward for the users here who are claiming that no one on this thread supports Hamas. A government that cares about its people makes sure that those people aren't oppressed. You can disagree with Hamas all you want, you can hate what they do, but they are indeed doing the best they can (from their point of view) to liberate Palestinians from oppression. You may condemn their methods, and I certainly do, but that doesn't change anything about the fact that Palestinians are oppressed, and that oppression is NOT because of Hamas. This is absolutely not true, Hamas wishes to oppress a larger area then they currently do. Hamas is all about oppression. Please explain the freedom Hamas will bring, especially for the women of Gaza and Israel if they are successful in its conquest. You can not claim you do believe Hamas is freedom fighters sometimes and then describe them as freedom fighters in other posts. Pick a lane. I didn't say Hamas will in fact bring freedom to Palestinians, I said Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. This is from their point of view. They think Palestinians are oppressed because they're under Israel's thumb. Hamas believe that they can liberate them. You can question Hamas all you want, you can argue as much as you want that they're in the wrong. You will get all of my support on that. It changes nothing about the fact that Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel, and that this is a major reason why Hamas exists. I disagree, Hamas exists to destroy Israel and institute Sharia law. Their intentions are not even that well hidden. Iran does not pretend to care about anyone but their own. It’s westerns who give this strange light of goodness by their own values that just simply do not exist.
In our eyes Sharia Law is oppressive, but for Hamas it's the only correct way to live. Liberation has a different meaning for religious fundamentalists than it does for people in more liberal countries like ours.
It's also important to show that, just because Israel has a more progressive or liberal approach to its social norms compared to various Arab nations, that doesn't mean that their own oppression of Palestinians can be excused. As always, two wrongs don't make a right. Palestinians need to figure out their own liberation after they've received freedom from Israel's oppression.
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On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in.
The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel.
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On December 28 2023 06:09 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 05:47 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 03:41 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 02:25 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 00:09 JimmiC wrote:On December 27 2023 19:17 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 17:41 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 27 2023 08:19 Razyda wrote:On December 27 2023 03:57 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 26 2023 21:32 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
So Zelensky should tell Ukrainians to lay down their arms and surrender if he wants to prove that he cares about lives of his countrymen more than his own political goals, is that what you're saying?
From the perspective of a peoples that are being oppressed, surrendering and accepting a government change forced by an occupying force isn't a show of compassion, it's an admission of failure and a national humiliation. The idea that radical terrorism from Gaza would stop if the only change was that Hamas government stepped down is silly; their radicalization is fueled by the actions of Israel and forcing a government change wouldn't reduce radicalization, if anything it'd make Palestinians hate Israel even more. Terrorism in Palestine didn't begin with Hamas, and it certainly wouldn't end with it either unless other changes were made. The point is not to "prove you care about your people by surrendering," it's to actually do what's best for your people. In Ukraine's case, they can reasonably expect much better results by continuing the war than by surrendering at this point. In an alternative scenario where Russia already had military control over 70% of Ukraine and it was pretty clear that they were going to take the rest by force in short order: it would be reasonable for Ukraine to surrender rather than fighting to the death of their last man. Obviously that would be a bad result for them. But it would be the better of the alternatives provided in that scenario. There have been hundreds of governing organizations throughout history that have surrendered in the face of impending defeat. I hardly think that all of them were insane and making an irrational choice by surrendering. If you think fighting to the death is preferable, then you are a zealot (or at least you think Palestinians should be zealots) for your cause. As to your questions of will this actually be effective at deradicalizing the local population, that is really a question for Israel, not Hamas, and is a separate discussion. We can pivot to discussing most effective methods for that now if you'd like. This somewhat reads like" Palestinians have no chance anyway, so they should just give up, instead of making things awkward." My post was not discussing Palestinians or their wider cause. It was about the governing organization of Hamas and the war that they started. A government who cared about it's people (you know, the Palestinians), would surrender at this point. Hamas is unusual among governments in that it doesn't prioritize the lives of it's people. Meanwhile, if you conflate Hamas with the Palestinians as a whole, you will make it quite awkward for the users here who are claiming that no one on this thread supports Hamas. A government that cares about its people makes sure that those people aren't oppressed. You can disagree with Hamas all you want, you can hate what they do, but they are indeed doing the best they can (from their point of view) to liberate Palestinians from oppression. You may condemn their methods, and I certainly do, but that doesn't change anything about the fact that Palestinians are oppressed, and that oppression is NOT because of Hamas. This is absolutely not true, Hamas wishes to oppress a larger area then they currently do. Hamas is all about oppression. Please explain the freedom Hamas will bring, especially for the women of Gaza and Israel if they are successful in its conquest. You can not claim you do believe Hamas is freedom fighters sometimes and then describe them as freedom fighters in other posts. Pick a lane. I didn't say Hamas will in fact bring freedom to Palestinians, I said Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. This is from their point of view. They think Palestinians are oppressed because they're under Israel's thumb. Hamas believe that they can liberate them. You can question Hamas all you want, you can argue as much as you want that they're in the wrong. You will get all of my support on that. It changes nothing about the fact that Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel, and that this is a major reason why Hamas exists. I disagree, Hamas exists to destroy Israel and institute Sharia law. Their intentions are not even that well hidden. Iran does not pretend to care about anyone but their own. It’s westerns who give this strange light of goodness by their own values that just simply do not exist. In our eyes Sharia Law is oppressive, but for Hamas it's the only correct way to live. Liberation has a different meaning for religious fundamentalists than it does for people in more liberal countries like ours. It's also important to show that, just because Israel has a more progressive or liberal approach to its social norms compared to various Arab nations, that doesn't mean that their own oppression of Palestinians can be excused. As always, two wrongs don't make a right. Palestinians need to figure out their own liberation after they've received freedom from Israel's oppression. I didn’t say what you are saying I did. Bottom line is Hamas intentions have nothing to do with freeing the Palestinians. They are an arm of Iran which is trying to rule the entiee Middle East for only those who think exactly like them and only those with the proper birthright to rule. That you and many others excuse this behaviour is wrong to me and confused me. They are worse objectively than all the fascists everyone is willing to kill. No need to excuse it, because I don’t give a fuck if they believe a warped version of Islam gives them the divine right any more than I would some wacky evil Christian faith.
You still don't understand. Hamas has two goals. One is to liberate Palestinians from Israel. The other is to rule people in the aftermath. These are not contradictory goals.
You also don't understand that we're not excusing their behavior, we're explaining it. We can condemn them, but we can also understand where they're coming from.
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On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel.
They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands.
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On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands.
Who was the oppressor of the German people when the Nazis came to power? Name only one. Or two if you like, but I don't need more than one for the point I'm making.
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On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. You seem to still be stuck trying to process that Israel is oppressing Palestinians. And therefor any discussion that derives from that point is going to go entirely over your head
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On December 28 2023 07:48 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. You seem to still be stuck trying to process that Israel is oppressing Palestinians. And therefor any discussion that derives from that point is going to go entirely over your head
Because it is a nonsense idea. They have rejected every 2 state solution they have been given. They elected Hamas who said this about the Jews in their charter.
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). avalon.law.yale.edu
Real freedom fighter energy there.
Recognize Israel's right to exist, quit doing terror attacks, and the "oppression" ends. Or alternatively keep hating Jews, attack Israel, and keep this nonsense going for the 80 years.
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On December 28 2023 07:47 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. Who was the oppressor of the German people when the Nazis came to power? Name only one. Or two if you like, but I don't need more than one for the point I'm making.
The French.
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On December 28 2023 08:05 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 07:48 Gorsameth wrote:On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. You seem to still be stuck trying to process that Israel is oppressing Palestinians. And therefor any discussion that derives from that point is going to go entirely over your head Because it is a nonsense idea. They have rejected every 2 state solution they have been given. They elected Hamas who said this about the Jews in their charter. Show nested quote +"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). avalon.law.yale.eduReal freedom fighter energy there. Recognize Israel's right to exist, quit doing terror attacks, and the "oppression" ends. Or alternatively keep hating Jews, attack Israel, and keep this nonsense going for the 80 years.
The two-state "solution" was a farce (every single proposal). It heavily favored the Zionists, and there was no basis for it to begin with. The Palestinian leaders were right to reject the UN resolution each time.
What's more, after the State of Israel was conceived, the Zionists didn't even attempt to offer a state to the Palestinians, or to restart negotiations otherwise. They were victorious and so they saw no need to negotiate with the loser of the conflict. To them it became a matter of might makes right. This proves the Palestinians right who believed all along that the Zionists were violent invaders and not a civil force.
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EPT
