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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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"The prohibition against the forcible transfer of civilians to territory of an occupied state under the Fourth Geneva Convention was not intended to relate to the circumstances of voluntary Jewish settlement in the West Bank on legitimately acquired land which did not belong to a previous lawful sovereign and which was designated as part of the Jewish State under the League of Nations Mandate.
Bilateral Israeli-Palestinian Agreements specifically affirm that settlements are subject to agreed and exclusive Israeli jurisdiction pending the outcome of peace negotiations, and do not prohibit settlement activity."
Mate, they're not even trying to argue that it's not an ethnic cleansing. They're trying to argue that their ethnic cleansing is legal based on technicalities.
As usual the "complexity" of the situation is claimed, but it's never explained. In the introduction we hear that the issue is complex, in the conclusion it's said once again. We don't know what is supposed to be complex about it. This is a rhetorical trick designed to make you picture a complexity in your head so that you forget that you can't find a simple reason why taking someone's land with force because you want someone of another ethnicity to live there instead wouldn't be ethnic cleansing.
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On December 27 2023 09:32 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 07:29 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 06:23 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupYou keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing? Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke? Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities. Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view. A lot going on in that post but will do my best to answer all those questions.
I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing?
Most importantly I am trying to push back against false claims which I believe are rooted in antisemitism. I believe lies spread about jewish people have directly lead to violence. October 7th was one such incident. Ethnic cleansing is a very strong claim and the facts do not support Israel committing it. I don't think everyone saying this is antisemitic and lying, but I do believe the claim is an antisemitic lie. It is very easy in the age of social media for false news to spread. If someone says anything in support of Israel immediately there is pushback. The arguments aren't attacked the poster is. So I too find myself questioning why I even bother trying sometimes.
Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke?
Saying the American south was racist and violent in the 19th century is not painting all American southerners with a single brush. It is making a general claim about the culture. Saying the Arab world is antisemitic does not mean every single individual Arab is antisemitic. Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Israel is responsible for the Jewish expulsion? Do explain. I don't know how this is going to be anything other than an awful take. Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Obviously this cannot be fully answered in a few sentences but it is not this simple. First no one is actually pushing for the Jews to return to their ME homes. No one cares that they were expelled from the middle east. No one is holding rallies for them and chanting slogans for them. You may think you care about all the historical injustices but you don't. You don't talk about what is going on in Yemen, or Sudan, or China or anywhere else. About Palestinians returning, what is your solution? Kick out all the Jews from Israel? There are Israeli kids who were born in Israel who have grandparents were born in Israel. The ottomans conquered the middle east and then lost it to the British who then divided it up. My grandparents were born in country A, B, C, D and had parents who were born in countries E and F. I now live in country G. A lot of those countries that my grandparents live in no longer exist. I have no right to the land of my grandparents. I am not firing rockets into Austria because the Austro Hungarians "stole my land". No is fighting for me to get the land of my grandparents back. Palestinians were offered a 2 state solution multiple times and rejected it every time. Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Was the US collectively punishing the Japanese or the Germans when they bombed them in world war 2? I don't know anyone who is happy when civilians die. Hamas could lay down their arms, surrender, and end this thing today. Israel lays down their arms and they get genocided today.
Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities.
This isn't an entirely useful way to look at things in my opinion. The Germans were also not implicitly evil. The generation before the Natzis and the generation after did no such thing. There isn't anything in their dna. But it wasn't just the government doing these things, the government reflects the will of the people to some extent. Populations have extreme antisemitic views lead to extreme outcomes. The germans were "protecting their nation" against the jews, the Palestinians are "fighting the occupation" once again against the jews. Saying the people are good the government is bad feels good to say. Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view. I am unclear which view you think I do not share. Thank you for taking the time to discuss each point. I disagree with calling it an antisemetic lie, not only because I find the claim legitmate, but also labelling it is an easy copout. I do think antisemitism is a serious issue, one that doesn't need to be tackled still, here in America (where Jews I believe still proprotionally suffer greater numbers of hate crimes than any other minority). Using that label when it is unjustified is problematic and lessens the labels legitmacy. With regards to the single stroke thing, I was referring to, from my admittedly limited understandinng on the matter, that the specific reason for jewish expulsion differed from country to country. Absolutely anti-semitism increased in the ME after the creation of Israel, and in many cases, we have countries where expulsion was caused by racism and bigotry, which I would further label as collective punishment and scapegoating. That was criminal. There were other cases (I believe Morocco and Yemen iirc) where expulsion was federally mandated after Israel (who have confirmed as much) intervened to create those mandates. Few things piss me off more than someone who doesn't know me telling me what I do or don't. You don't know what atrocities I bemoan, ignore or am unaware of, so please, that's quite pathetic. With regards to what I would do, the entirety of the land should be used to create a singular secular land. Israel isn't going to agree to give back any land, and the land the Palestinians currently have cannot realistically hold that many people in a comfortable manner. I honestly don't know what you believe ends if Hamas lays down their arms, so if you could expound on that I'd appreciate it.
Fair enough. Dumb phrasing on my part. I was using "you" in place of the average internet user and did not mean you specifically. It was poorly written. You are completely right, I don't know what you specifically care or do not care about. Please don't let that distract from the point I was trying to make, that the online western internet world disproportionately cares about this conflict to the exclusion of others.
If Hamas and Palestinians lay down there arms then this conflict ends. Not just the current flareup but the whole thing. They get a state of their own, the world pours money in, their standard of living shoots up, life is good. They could have had it way back in 1948. They can still have it today.
I believe the root of the conflict is antisemitism. I think most people refuse to acknowledge it.
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On December 27 2023 08:49 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 08:38 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 08:08 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 07:31 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 07:09 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:
[quote]
Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group
You keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. This thread has no antisemites. Yup and Austria has no antisemites either. https://www.ft.com/content/3a78f9df-dfcf-45b4-9344-8e0d161f8e81 Stop being an idiot. Name the person in this thread who you think is an antisemite. Antisemitism isn't usually a x person is a bad man! Burn him! sort of thing. It is more of a oh wow I can't believe we as a people used to think that way sort of thing. In my grandparents generation there were very few people wearing a hood. And very many people who casually said some very suspect things. I don't think there are any hood wearing, holocaust denying antisemites in the thread. But there are sure a lot of people repeating some very questionable statements about Israel. It is this kind of antisemitism that lends to support to the hood wearing kind that fires rockets at them on a daily basis. Ah I see, the problem is that you don't actually know what antisemitism is. Being critical of the state of Israel isn't antisemitism. I can hate the state of Israel for what its doing to Palestinians without blaming the Jewish people for being Jewish. A big part of Israel's ability to get away with things like ethnic cleaning is to miscategorise any criticism of the state as antisemitism.
Of course in a vacuum it is not. But if 100 countries do bad things and you only criticize the majority Jewish one, you are not criticizing because of the bad thing they did, you are criticizing them because they are Jewish and using the bad thing to justify it. This form of antisemitism is a lot more subtle than the more obvious deny holocaust or "insert random conspiracy about jews" variety.
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On December 27 2023 10:01 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 09:32 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 27 2023 07:29 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 06:23 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupYou keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing? Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke? Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities. Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view. A lot going on in that post but will do my best to answer all those questions.
I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing?
Most importantly I am trying to push back against false claims which I believe are rooted in antisemitism. I believe lies spread about jewish people have directly lead to violence. October 7th was one such incident. Ethnic cleansing is a very strong claim and the facts do not support Israel committing it. I don't think everyone saying this is antisemitic and lying, but I do believe the claim is an antisemitic lie. It is very easy in the age of social media for false news to spread. If someone says anything in support of Israel immediately there is pushback. The arguments aren't attacked the poster is. So I too find myself questioning why I even bother trying sometimes.
Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke?
Saying the American south was racist and violent in the 19th century is not painting all American southerners with a single brush. It is making a general claim about the culture. Saying the Arab world is antisemitic does not mean every single individual Arab is antisemitic. Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Israel is responsible for the Jewish expulsion? Do explain. I don't know how this is going to be anything other than an awful take. Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Obviously this cannot be fully answered in a few sentences but it is not this simple. First no one is actually pushing for the Jews to return to their ME homes. No one cares that they were expelled from the middle east. No one is holding rallies for them and chanting slogans for them. You may think you care about all the historical injustices but you don't. You don't talk about what is going on in Yemen, or Sudan, or China or anywhere else. About Palestinians returning, what is your solution? Kick out all the Jews from Israel? There are Israeli kids who were born in Israel who have grandparents were born in Israel. The ottomans conquered the middle east and then lost it to the British who then divided it up. My grandparents were born in country A, B, C, D and had parents who were born in countries E and F. I now live in country G. A lot of those countries that my grandparents live in no longer exist. I have no right to the land of my grandparents. I am not firing rockets into Austria because the Austro Hungarians "stole my land". No is fighting for me to get the land of my grandparents back. Palestinians were offered a 2 state solution multiple times and rejected it every time. Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Was the US collectively punishing the Japanese or the Germans when they bombed them in world war 2? I don't know anyone who is happy when civilians die. Hamas could lay down their arms, surrender, and end this thing today. Israel lays down their arms and they get genocided today.
Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities.
This isn't an entirely useful way to look at things in my opinion. The Germans were also not implicitly evil. The generation before the Natzis and the generation after did no such thing. There isn't anything in their dna. But it wasn't just the government doing these things, the government reflects the will of the people to some extent. Populations have extreme antisemitic views lead to extreme outcomes. The germans were "protecting their nation" against the jews, the Palestinians are "fighting the occupation" once again against the jews. Saying the people are good the government is bad feels good to say. Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view. I am unclear which view you think I do not share. Thank you for taking the time to discuss each point. I disagree with calling it an antisemetic lie, not only because I find the claim legitmate, but also labelling it is an easy copout. I do think antisemitism is a serious issue, one that doesn't need to be tackled still, here in America (where Jews I believe still proprotionally suffer greater numbers of hate crimes than any other minority). Using that label when it is unjustified is problematic and lessens the labels legitmacy. With regards to the single stroke thing, I was referring to, from my admittedly limited understandinng on the matter, that the specific reason for jewish expulsion differed from country to country. Absolutely anti-semitism increased in the ME after the creation of Israel, and in many cases, we have countries where expulsion was caused by racism and bigotry, which I would further label as collective punishment and scapegoating. That was criminal. There were other cases (I believe Morocco and Yemen iirc) where expulsion was federally mandated after Israel (who have confirmed as much) intervened to create those mandates. Few things piss me off more than someone who doesn't know me telling me what I do or don't. You don't know what atrocities I bemoan, ignore or am unaware of, so please, that's quite pathetic. With regards to what I would do, the entirety of the land should be used to create a singular secular land. Israel isn't going to agree to give back any land, and the land the Palestinians currently have cannot realistically hold that many people in a comfortable manner. I honestly don't know what you believe ends if Hamas lays down their arms, so if you could expound on that I'd appreciate it. Fair enough. Dumb phrasing on my part. I was using "you" in place of the average internet user and did not mean you specifically. It was poorly written. You are completely right, I don't know what you specifically care or do not care about. Please don't let that distract from the point I was trying to make, that the online western internet world disproportionately cares about this conflict to the exclusion of others. If Hamas and Palestinians lay down there arms then this conflict ends. Not just the current flareup but the whole thing. They get a state of their own, the world pours money in, their standard of living shoots up, life is good. They could have had it way back in 1948. They can still have it today. I believe the root of the conflict is antisemitism. I think most people refuse to acknowledge it.
Apology accepted, I should have given you the benefit of doubt. I don't disagree there is disproportionate care right now regarding this conflict just like at the start of last year there was disproportionate care towards Russia/Ukraine.
I do disagree that outright surrender gets Palestine to 48. I don't see anything that suggests that. Everything I observe tells me Israel isn't stopping until they have all of the land.
I find it frustrating that we bemoan the removal of people from their homes, bombing of children in refugee camps, restriction of internet access, flow of food/water and get told "yeah but it's really happening because yall are antisemetic". Serious question, do you believe ME was rife with antisemitism prior to 47?
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On December 27 2023 09:38 Nebuchad wrote:
"The prohibition against the forcible transfer of civilians to territory of an occupied state under the Fourth Geneva Convention was not intended to relate to the circumstances of voluntary Jewish settlement in the West Bank on legitimately acquired land which did not belong to a previous lawful sovereign and which was designated as part of the Jewish State under the League of Nations Mandate.
Bilateral Israeli-Palestinian Agreements specifically affirm that settlements are subject to agreed and exclusive Israeli jurisdiction pending the outcome of peace negotiations, and do not prohibit settlement activity."
Mate, they're not even trying to argue that it's not an ethnic cleansing. They're trying to argue that their ethnic cleansing is legal based on technicalities.
As usual the "complexity" of the situation is claimed, but it's never explained. In the introduction we hear that the issue is complex, in the conclusion it's said once again. We don't know what is supposed to be complex about it. This is a rhetorical trick designed to make you picture a complexity in your head so that you forget that you can't find a simple reason why taking someone's land with force because you want someone of another ethnicity to live there instead wouldn't be ethnic cleansing.
The complexity is the "their land" part. You are 100% convinced that it is theirs. But there are complex competing claims. And ethnic cleansing generally refers to mass deportations, forced migrations, or killings that result in population drops. It is not about a city becoming segregated.
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United States43675 Posts
On December 27 2023 10:01 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 09:32 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 27 2023 07:29 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 06:23 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupYou keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing? Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke? Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities. Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view. A lot going on in that post but will do my best to answer all those questions.
I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing?
Most importantly I am trying to push back against false claims which I believe are rooted in antisemitism. I believe lies spread about jewish people have directly lead to violence. October 7th was one such incident. Ethnic cleansing is a very strong claim and the facts do not support Israel committing it. I don't think everyone saying this is antisemitic and lying, but I do believe the claim is an antisemitic lie. It is very easy in the age of social media for false news to spread. If someone says anything in support of Israel immediately there is pushback. The arguments aren't attacked the poster is. So I too find myself questioning why I even bother trying sometimes.
Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke?
Saying the American south was racist and violent in the 19th century is not painting all American southerners with a single brush. It is making a general claim about the culture. Saying the Arab world is antisemitic does not mean every single individual Arab is antisemitic. Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Israel is responsible for the Jewish expulsion? Do explain. I don't know how this is going to be anything other than an awful take. Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Obviously this cannot be fully answered in a few sentences but it is not this simple. First no one is actually pushing for the Jews to return to their ME homes. No one cares that they were expelled from the middle east. No one is holding rallies for them and chanting slogans for them. You may think you care about all the historical injustices but you don't. You don't talk about what is going on in Yemen, or Sudan, or China or anywhere else. About Palestinians returning, what is your solution? Kick out all the Jews from Israel? There are Israeli kids who were born in Israel who have grandparents were born in Israel. The ottomans conquered the middle east and then lost it to the British who then divided it up. My grandparents were born in country A, B, C, D and had parents who were born in countries E and F. I now live in country G. A lot of those countries that my grandparents live in no longer exist. I have no right to the land of my grandparents. I am not firing rockets into Austria because the Austro Hungarians "stole my land". No is fighting for me to get the land of my grandparents back. Palestinians were offered a 2 state solution multiple times and rejected it every time. Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Was the US collectively punishing the Japanese or the Germans when they bombed them in world war 2? I don't know anyone who is happy when civilians die. Hamas could lay down their arms, surrender, and end this thing today. Israel lays down their arms and they get genocided today.
Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities.
This isn't an entirely useful way to look at things in my opinion. The Germans were also not implicitly evil. The generation before the Natzis and the generation after did no such thing. There isn't anything in their dna. But it wasn't just the government doing these things, the government reflects the will of the people to some extent. Populations have extreme antisemitic views lead to extreme outcomes. The germans were "protecting their nation" against the jews, the Palestinians are "fighting the occupation" once again against the jews. Saying the people are good the government is bad feels good to say. Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view. I am unclear which view you think I do not share. Thank you for taking the time to discuss each point. I disagree with calling it an antisemetic lie, not only because I find the claim legitmate, but also labelling it is an easy copout. I do think antisemitism is a serious issue, one that doesn't need to be tackled still, here in America (where Jews I believe still proprotionally suffer greater numbers of hate crimes than any other minority). Using that label when it is unjustified is problematic and lessens the labels legitmacy. With regards to the single stroke thing, I was referring to, from my admittedly limited understandinng on the matter, that the specific reason for jewish expulsion differed from country to country. Absolutely anti-semitism increased in the ME after the creation of Israel, and in many cases, we have countries where expulsion was caused by racism and bigotry, which I would further label as collective punishment and scapegoating. That was criminal. There were other cases (I believe Morocco and Yemen iirc) where expulsion was federally mandated after Israel (who have confirmed as much) intervened to create those mandates. Few things piss me off more than someone who doesn't know me telling me what I do or don't. You don't know what atrocities I bemoan, ignore or am unaware of, so please, that's quite pathetic. With regards to what I would do, the entirety of the land should be used to create a singular secular land. Israel isn't going to agree to give back any land, and the land the Palestinians currently have cannot realistically hold that many people in a comfortable manner. I honestly don't know what you believe ends if Hamas lays down their arms, so if you could expound on that I'd appreciate it. Fair enough. Dumb phrasing on my part. I was using "you" in place of the average internet user and did not mean you specifically. It was poorly written. You are completely right, I don't know what you specifically care or do not care about. Please don't let that distract from the point I was trying to make, that the online western internet world disproportionately cares about this conflict to the exclusion of others. If Hamas and Palestinians lay down there arms then this conflict ends. Not just the current flareup but the whole thing. They get a state of their own, the world pours money in, their standard of living shoots up, life is good. They could have had it way back in 1948. They can still have it today. I believe the root of the conflict is antisemitism. I think most people refuse to acknowledge it.
Gaza is not a viable state. The median age is 17 and the median 17 year old has kids. It’s never going to be peaceful and prosperous.
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On December 27 2023 10:17 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 09:38 Nebuchad wrote:
"The prohibition against the forcible transfer of civilians to territory of an occupied state under the Fourth Geneva Convention was not intended to relate to the circumstances of voluntary Jewish settlement in the West Bank on legitimately acquired land which did not belong to a previous lawful sovereign and which was designated as part of the Jewish State under the League of Nations Mandate.
Bilateral Israeli-Palestinian Agreements specifically affirm that settlements are subject to agreed and exclusive Israeli jurisdiction pending the outcome of peace negotiations, and do not prohibit settlement activity."
Mate, they're not even trying to argue that it's not an ethnic cleansing. They're trying to argue that their ethnic cleansing is legal based on technicalities.
As usual the "complexity" of the situation is claimed, but it's never explained. In the introduction we hear that the issue is complex, in the conclusion it's said once again. We don't know what is supposed to be complex about it. This is a rhetorical trick designed to make you picture a complexity in your head so that you forget that you can't find a simple reason why taking someone's land with force because you want someone of another ethnicity to live there instead wouldn't be ethnic cleansing. The complexity is the "their land" part. You are 100% convinced that it is theirs. But there are complex competing claims. And ethnic cleansing generally refers to mass deportations, forced migrations, or killings that result in population drops. It is not about a city becoming segregated.
Does the Nakba not qualify?
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On December 27 2023 10:17 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 09:38 Nebuchad wrote:
"The prohibition against the forcible transfer of civilians to territory of an occupied state under the Fourth Geneva Convention was not intended to relate to the circumstances of voluntary Jewish settlement in the West Bank on legitimately acquired land which did not belong to a previous lawful sovereign and which was designated as part of the Jewish State under the League of Nations Mandate.
Bilateral Israeli-Palestinian Agreements specifically affirm that settlements are subject to agreed and exclusive Israeli jurisdiction pending the outcome of peace negotiations, and do not prohibit settlement activity."
Mate, they're not even trying to argue that it's not an ethnic cleansing. They're trying to argue that their ethnic cleansing is legal based on technicalities.
As usual the "complexity" of the situation is claimed, but it's never explained. In the introduction we hear that the issue is complex, in the conclusion it's said once again. We don't know what is supposed to be complex about it. This is a rhetorical trick designed to make you picture a complexity in your head so that you forget that you can't find a simple reason why taking someone's land with force because you want someone of another ethnicity to live there instead wouldn't be ethnic cleansing. The complexity is the "their land" part. You are 100% convinced that it is theirs. But there are complex competing claims. And ethnic cleansing generally refers to mass deportations, forced migrations, or killings that result in population drops. It is not about a city becoming segregated.
If you make a complex case about whether the Palestinians own the land that they live on or not, you're not making a case against this being an ethnic cleansing, you're making a case for an ethnic cleansing being the right thing to do, or a justifiable thing to do. It doesn't change the nature of what is happening, which is: Palestinians are living on this land, you want this land to belong to Israel but without its current inhabitants, you're forcefully chasing them off area after area.
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Northern Ireland26355 Posts
On December 27 2023 09:36 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 09:26 WombaT wrote:On December 27 2023 09:22 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 08:51 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 08:38 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 08:08 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 07:31 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 07:09 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. This thread has no antisemites. Yup and Austria has no antisemites either. https://www.ft.com/content/3a78f9df-dfcf-45b4-9344-8e0d161f8e81 Stop being an idiot. Name the person in this thread who you think is an antisemite. Antisemitism isn't usually a x person is a bad man! Burn him! sort of thing. It is more of a oh wow I can't believe we as a people used to think that way sort of thing. In my grandparents generation there were very few people wearing a hood. And very many people who casually said some very suspect things. I don't think there are any hood wearing, holocaust denying antisemites in the thread. But there are sure a lot of people repeating some very questionable statements about Israel. It is this kind of antisemitism that lends to support to the hood wearing kind that fires rockets at them on a daily basis. The way you're using the accusation of antisemitism is absolutely a "bad person, burn them!" sort of thing. It is baseless, it is strictly a lie. You're using it to defame the people you're arguing with so you don't have to engage with their arguments. Meanwhile you deny the claim of ethnic cleansing in the West bank. The evidence is easily available and there's no excuse for you not to know about the objective element of ethnic and religious displacement. I'd forgive your ignorance if you weren't so quick to accuse me and others of being antisemites, but I won't be so lenient with you. Read the article I posted and then say again that there's definitely no ethnic cleansing happening in the West bank. Dare say again that it's just antisemitism that drives the accusation of ethnic cleansing. Who did I accuse of being an antisemite? This post maybe? On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupYou keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. It is an antisemitic lie! I never accused anyone in the thread of being antisemitic. Those two statements can coexist. Hamas or Iran or whoever comes up with some nonsense, it gets spread on social media. The person repeating it is just sharing what they read. I am not smearing the person sharing it. They don't know any better.
Well sure but they could just be a lie, or a misunderstanding of a certain scenario. Or ignorance or whatever.
And I mean I think Hamas’ influence on this particular sub forum isn’t especially high.
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Northern Ireland26355 Posts
On December 27 2023 10:07 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 08:49 Gorsameth wrote:On December 27 2023 08:38 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 08:08 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 07:31 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 07:09 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. This thread has no antisemites. Yup and Austria has no antisemites either. https://www.ft.com/content/3a78f9df-dfcf-45b4-9344-8e0d161f8e81 Stop being an idiot. Name the person in this thread who you think is an antisemite. Antisemitism isn't usually a x person is a bad man! Burn him! sort of thing. It is more of a oh wow I can't believe we as a people used to think that way sort of thing. In my grandparents generation there were very few people wearing a hood. And very many people who casually said some very suspect things. I don't think there are any hood wearing, holocaust denying antisemites in the thread. But there are sure a lot of people repeating some very questionable statements about Israel. It is this kind of antisemitism that lends to support to the hood wearing kind that fires rockets at them on a daily basis. Ah I see, the problem is that you don't actually know what antisemitism is. Being critical of the state of Israel isn't antisemitism. I can hate the state of Israel for what its doing to Palestinians without blaming the Jewish people for being Jewish. A big part of Israel's ability to get away with things like ethnic cleaning is to miscategorise any criticism of the state as antisemitism. Of course in a vacuum it is not. But if 100 countries do bad things and you only criticize the majority Jewish one, you are not criticizing because of the bad thing they did, you are criticizing them because they are Jewish and using the bad thing to justify it. This form of antisemitism is a lot more subtle than the more obvious deny holocaust or "insert random conspiracy about jews" variety.
Who’s doing that in here though?
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On December 27 2023 10:11 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 10:01 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 09:32 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 27 2023 07:29 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 06:23 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:
[quote]
Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group
You keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing? Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke? Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities. Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view. A lot going on in that post but will do my best to answer all those questions.
I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing?
Most importantly I am trying to push back against false claims which I believe are rooted in antisemitism. I believe lies spread about jewish people have directly lead to violence. October 7th was one such incident. Ethnic cleansing is a very strong claim and the facts do not support Israel committing it. I don't think everyone saying this is antisemitic and lying, but I do believe the claim is an antisemitic lie. It is very easy in the age of social media for false news to spread. If someone says anything in support of Israel immediately there is pushback. The arguments aren't attacked the poster is. So I too find myself questioning why I even bother trying sometimes.
Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke?
Saying the American south was racist and violent in the 19th century is not painting all American southerners with a single brush. It is making a general claim about the culture. Saying the Arab world is antisemitic does not mean every single individual Arab is antisemitic. Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Israel is responsible for the Jewish expulsion? Do explain. I don't know how this is going to be anything other than an awful take. Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Obviously this cannot be fully answered in a few sentences but it is not this simple. First no one is actually pushing for the Jews to return to their ME homes. No one cares that they were expelled from the middle east. No one is holding rallies for them and chanting slogans for them. You may think you care about all the historical injustices but you don't. You don't talk about what is going on in Yemen, or Sudan, or China or anywhere else. About Palestinians returning, what is your solution? Kick out all the Jews from Israel? There are Israeli kids who were born in Israel who have grandparents were born in Israel. The ottomans conquered the middle east and then lost it to the British who then divided it up. My grandparents were born in country A, B, C, D and had parents who were born in countries E and F. I now live in country G. A lot of those countries that my grandparents live in no longer exist. I have no right to the land of my grandparents. I am not firing rockets into Austria because the Austro Hungarians "stole my land". No is fighting for me to get the land of my grandparents back. Palestinians were offered a 2 state solution multiple times and rejected it every time. Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Was the US collectively punishing the Japanese or the Germans when they bombed them in world war 2? I don't know anyone who is happy when civilians die. Hamas could lay down their arms, surrender, and end this thing today. Israel lays down their arms and they get genocided today.
Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities.
This isn't an entirely useful way to look at things in my opinion. The Germans were also not implicitly evil. The generation before the Natzis and the generation after did no such thing. There isn't anything in their dna. But it wasn't just the government doing these things, the government reflects the will of the people to some extent. Populations have extreme antisemitic views lead to extreme outcomes. The germans were "protecting their nation" against the jews, the Palestinians are "fighting the occupation" once again against the jews. Saying the people are good the government is bad feels good to say. Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view. I am unclear which view you think I do not share. Thank you for taking the time to discuss each point. I disagree with calling it an antisemetic lie, not only because I find the claim legitmate, but also labelling it is an easy copout. I do think antisemitism is a serious issue, one that doesn't need to be tackled still, here in America (where Jews I believe still proprotionally suffer greater numbers of hate crimes than any other minority). Using that label when it is unjustified is problematic and lessens the labels legitmacy. With regards to the single stroke thing, I was referring to, from my admittedly limited understandinng on the matter, that the specific reason for jewish expulsion differed from country to country. Absolutely anti-semitism increased in the ME after the creation of Israel, and in many cases, we have countries where expulsion was caused by racism and bigotry, which I would further label as collective punishment and scapegoating. That was criminal. There were other cases (I believe Morocco and Yemen iirc) where expulsion was federally mandated after Israel (who have confirmed as much) intervened to create those mandates. Few things piss me off more than someone who doesn't know me telling me what I do or don't. You don't know what atrocities I bemoan, ignore or am unaware of, so please, that's quite pathetic. With regards to what I would do, the entirety of the land should be used to create a singular secular land. Israel isn't going to agree to give back any land, and the land the Palestinians currently have cannot realistically hold that many people in a comfortable manner. I honestly don't know what you believe ends if Hamas lays down their arms, so if you could expound on that I'd appreciate it. Fair enough. Dumb phrasing on my part. I was using "you" in place of the average internet user and did not mean you specifically. It was poorly written. You are completely right, I don't know what you specifically care or do not care about. Please don't let that distract from the point I was trying to make, that the online western internet world disproportionately cares about this conflict to the exclusion of others. If Hamas and Palestinians lay down there arms then this conflict ends. Not just the current flareup but the whole thing. They get a state of their own, the world pours money in, their standard of living shoots up, life is good. They could have had it way back in 1948. They can still have it today. I believe the root of the conflict is antisemitism. I think most people refuse to acknowledge it. Apology accepted, I should have given you the benefit of doubt. I don't disagree there is disproportionate care right now regarding this conflict just like at the start of last year there was disproportionate care towards Russia/Ukraine. I do disagree that outright surrender gets Palestine to 48. I don't see anything that suggests that. Everything I observe tells me Israel isn't stopping until they have all of the land. I find it frustrating that we bemoan the removal of people from their homes, bombing of children in refugee camps, restriction of internet access, flow of food/water and get told "yeah but it's really happening because yall are antisemetic". Serious question, do you believe ME was rife with antisemitism prior to 47?
Yes 100%. I don't think that is even controversial. Europe was extremely antisemitic too and they basically killed the majority of their Jewish population.
I have some hope. Israel pulled out their settlements from Gaza. en.wikipedia.org
I don't like the violence either. It sucks. Israel is in a super shitty situation. The government of the Gaza strip is a terrorist organization. They fire weapons from refugee camps and hide rockets in schools. So they either Israel ignores it or they fight back which results in civilian casualties. But rather than people say hey Hamas stop being dickheads people blame Israel. If even half of the effort was put into pressuring Hamas to surrender as the do on Israel this conflict would be long done. People act like Hamas is like the Rebels from star wars rather than the right wing regressive assholes they are.
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There is absolutely no way that the conflict ends with Hamas. There is absolutely no way that Palestinians get a state. Israel is currently breeding more radicalists than ever before among the Palestinian population, and there's much less of a drive than ever before to let Palestinians co-exist in their own state side by side with the State of Israel.
The IDF is now the only aggressor in this war. Hamas was the aggressor for a few days or weeks, and since then the IDF has taken that role in its entirety. There is no world in which Hamas will surrender, and by this point even I have a hard time seeing any reasons why they would surrender. They succeeded in proving to themselves, to their fellow Palestinians, and to the world, that Israel is an unreasonable aggressor. It follows that, to Hamas, there is no evil great enough to surpass the evil of Israel.
Without understanding this point of view, there can be no understanding the continued radicalism that Israel is breeding by continuing to wage this war.
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On December 27 2023 10:35 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 10:11 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 27 2023 10:01 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 09:32 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 27 2023 07:29 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 06:23 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing? Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke? Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities. Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view. A lot going on in that post but will do my best to answer all those questions.
I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing?
Most importantly I am trying to push back against false claims which I believe are rooted in antisemitism. I believe lies spread about jewish people have directly lead to violence. October 7th was one such incident. Ethnic cleansing is a very strong claim and the facts do not support Israel committing it. I don't think everyone saying this is antisemitic and lying, but I do believe the claim is an antisemitic lie. It is very easy in the age of social media for false news to spread. If someone says anything in support of Israel immediately there is pushback. The arguments aren't attacked the poster is. So I too find myself questioning why I even bother trying sometimes.
Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke?
Saying the American south was racist and violent in the 19th century is not painting all American southerners with a single brush. It is making a general claim about the culture. Saying the Arab world is antisemitic does not mean every single individual Arab is antisemitic. Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Israel is responsible for the Jewish expulsion? Do explain. I don't know how this is going to be anything other than an awful take. Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Obviously this cannot be fully answered in a few sentences but it is not this simple. First no one is actually pushing for the Jews to return to their ME homes. No one cares that they were expelled from the middle east. No one is holding rallies for them and chanting slogans for them. You may think you care about all the historical injustices but you don't. You don't talk about what is going on in Yemen, or Sudan, or China or anywhere else. About Palestinians returning, what is your solution? Kick out all the Jews from Israel? There are Israeli kids who were born in Israel who have grandparents were born in Israel. The ottomans conquered the middle east and then lost it to the British who then divided it up. My grandparents were born in country A, B, C, D and had parents who were born in countries E and F. I now live in country G. A lot of those countries that my grandparents live in no longer exist. I have no right to the land of my grandparents. I am not firing rockets into Austria because the Austro Hungarians "stole my land". No is fighting for me to get the land of my grandparents back. Palestinians were offered a 2 state solution multiple times and rejected it every time. Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Was the US collectively punishing the Japanese or the Germans when they bombed them in world war 2? I don't know anyone who is happy when civilians die. Hamas could lay down their arms, surrender, and end this thing today. Israel lays down their arms and they get genocided today.
Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities.
This isn't an entirely useful way to look at things in my opinion. The Germans were also not implicitly evil. The generation before the Natzis and the generation after did no such thing. There isn't anything in their dna. But it wasn't just the government doing these things, the government reflects the will of the people to some extent. Populations have extreme antisemitic views lead to extreme outcomes. The germans were "protecting their nation" against the jews, the Palestinians are "fighting the occupation" once again against the jews. Saying the people are good the government is bad feels good to say. Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view. I am unclear which view you think I do not share. Thank you for taking the time to discuss each point. I disagree with calling it an antisemetic lie, not only because I find the claim legitmate, but also labelling it is an easy copout. I do think antisemitism is a serious issue, one that doesn't need to be tackled still, here in America (where Jews I believe still proprotionally suffer greater numbers of hate crimes than any other minority). Using that label when it is unjustified is problematic and lessens the labels legitmacy. With regards to the single stroke thing, I was referring to, from my admittedly limited understandinng on the matter, that the specific reason for jewish expulsion differed from country to country. Absolutely anti-semitism increased in the ME after the creation of Israel, and in many cases, we have countries where expulsion was caused by racism and bigotry, which I would further label as collective punishment and scapegoating. That was criminal. There were other cases (I believe Morocco and Yemen iirc) where expulsion was federally mandated after Israel (who have confirmed as much) intervened to create those mandates. Few things piss me off more than someone who doesn't know me telling me what I do or don't. You don't know what atrocities I bemoan, ignore or am unaware of, so please, that's quite pathetic. With regards to what I would do, the entirety of the land should be used to create a singular secular land. Israel isn't going to agree to give back any land, and the land the Palestinians currently have cannot realistically hold that many people in a comfortable manner. I honestly don't know what you believe ends if Hamas lays down their arms, so if you could expound on that I'd appreciate it. Fair enough. Dumb phrasing on my part. I was using "you" in place of the average internet user and did not mean you specifically. It was poorly written. You are completely right, I don't know what you specifically care or do not care about. Please don't let that distract from the point I was trying to make, that the online western internet world disproportionately cares about this conflict to the exclusion of others. If Hamas and Palestinians lay down there arms then this conflict ends. Not just the current flareup but the whole thing. They get a state of their own, the world pours money in, their standard of living shoots up, life is good. They could have had it way back in 1948. They can still have it today. I believe the root of the conflict is antisemitism. I think most people refuse to acknowledge it. Apology accepted, I should have given you the benefit of doubt. I don't disagree there is disproportionate care right now regarding this conflict just like at the start of last year there was disproportionate care towards Russia/Ukraine. I do disagree that outright surrender gets Palestine to 48. I don't see anything that suggests that. Everything I observe tells me Israel isn't stopping until they have all of the land. I find it frustrating that we bemoan the removal of people from their homes, bombing of children in refugee camps, restriction of internet access, flow of food/water and get told "yeah but it's really happening because yall are antisemetic". Serious question, do you believe ME was rife with antisemitism prior to 47? Yes 100%. I don't think that is even controversial. Europe was extremely antisemitic too and they basically killed the majority of their Jewish population. I have some hope. Israel pulled out their settlements from Gaza. en.wikipedia.orgI don't like the violence either. It sucks. Israel is in a super shitty situation. The government of the Gaza strip is a terrorist organization. They fire weapons from refugee camps and hide rockets in schools. So they either Israel ignores it or they fight back which results in civilian casualties. But rather than people say hey Hamas stop being dickheads people blame Israel. If even half of the effort was put into pressuring Hamas to surrender as the do on Israel this conflict would be long done. People act like Hamas is like the Rebels from star wars rather than the right wing regressive assholes they are.
This is why I told you to read the previous discussions from this thread. What you're saying is false.
Most if not all people in here have put most of the blame on Hamas. We've discussed why the controversy is mainly in regards to Israel, and not in regards to Hamas. Why we're not discussing Hamas' crimes but instead are focusing on those of the IDF, the Israeli government, and the Jewish settlers. We've gone over all of that before plenty of times.
We want Israel to be held responsible. This is not contradictory to the view that Hamas should be held responsible as well. There are no "good sides" in this war. The war is fought between two opposing evils, with many innocent people caught in the middle. People have denied that Israel has similar levels of responsibility in the death and destruction as Hamas does. That's the controversial point, and that's why the focus is on Israel.
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On December 27 2023 09:12 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 08:18 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 07:49 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 07:36 Nebuchad wrote:On December 25 2023 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On December 25 2023 01:39 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 23:37 Nebuchad wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group Thanks for this helpful definition. Maybe you should call the dictionary and tell them to add those other things that you mentioned afterwards in the definition, that way your claim would be correct. Until then, I guess we'll stick with this definition, and under this definition Israel is obviously doing it. Nope sorry try again. They never rendered any area ethnically homogenous. Words have meanings. Sure they did. All of the areas that they settled. Yo flashymarine you must have missed this post, a common mistake I didn't respond because it was a low effort post. "All the areas that they settled". No specifics, no data, nothing. If you had said something like the Arab population of Israel increased by x amount and the population of Palestine increased by y amount we could discuss something. Of course we would quickly learn that is not in fact ethnic cleansing. But using the vague "areas they settled" is meaningless. The West bank does not belong to Israel. Today there are massive militarized zones and roads separating a huge area of illegal Jewish settlements from the Palestinian population, weaving through the whole region, cutting off the Palestinians and making their lives much harder. That zone is controlled and financed by the State of Israel, and it has resulted in an ethnic and economic divide between the Jewish and Palestinian people in the West bank. The Palestinians are forbidden from moving between these zones, making it very hard for them to pursue their various economic interests. The Jewish settlers, despite occupying the land illegally, continue to attack and displace the locals and grab more of their land. The amount of land controlled by the illegal settlers is now roughly equal to that of the Palestinian locals, despite the Palestinians vastly outnumbering the illegal settlers. All of this land lawfully belongs to Palestinians. Visualization of the aftermath: ![[image loading]](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/480/cpsprodpb/F78D/production/_109737336_west_bank_settlements_oct_2019_640_3x-nc.png) Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52756427 Is it fair to acknowledge that even if I grant that everything you claim is true, it does not in fact meet the definition of ethnic cleansing? In contrast to the view presented above here is the Israeli governments view. https://www.gov.il/en/departments/general/israeli-settlement-and-international-lawShow nested quote +
Attempts to present Jewish settlement in West Bank territory (ancient Judea and Samaria) as illegal and "colonial" in nature ignores the complexity of this issue, the history of the land, and the unique legal circumstances of this case.
Jewish communities in this territory have existed from time immemorial and express the deep connection of the Jewish people to land which is the cradle of their civilization, as affirmed by the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, and from which they, or their ancestors, were ousted.
The prohibition against the forcible transfer of civilians to territory of an occupied state under the Fourth Geneva Convention was not intended to relate to the circumstances of voluntary Jewish settlement in the West Bank on legitimately acquired land which did not belong to a previous lawful sovereign and which was designated as part of the Jewish State under the League of Nations Mandate.
Bilateral Israeli-Palestinian Agreements specifically affirm that settlements are subject to agreed and exclusive Israeli jurisdiction pending the outcome of peace negotiations, and do not prohibit settlement activity.
Israel remains committed to peace negotiations without preconditions in order to resolve all outstanding issues and competing claims. It continues to ask the Palestinian side to respond in kind. It is hoped that such negotiations will produce an agreed peaceful settlement which will give legitimate expression to the connection of both Jews and Palestinians to this ancient land.
Bolded: Why not present Hamas view on it, surely it have similar level of objectivity?
UN stance of this is here (thats one of many describing Israel settlements as illegal):
https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15424.doc.htm
"In the ensuing discussion, Council members stressed that the expanding Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory are a violation of international law and must cease."
Another:
https://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm
"The Security Council reaffirmed this afternoon that Israel’s establishment of settlements in Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, had no legal validity, constituting a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the vision of two States living side-by-side in peace and security, within internationally recognized borders."
On top of that (considering that you quoted bit of statement you consider important) considering this part:
"Jewish communities in this territory have existed from time immemorial and express the deep connection of the Jewish people to land which is the cradle of their civilization, as affirmed by the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, and from which they, or their ancestors, were ousted"
What you suggest to do with non-native citizens of Australia, both Americas and even England, surely same rules should apply? (Canada seems no longer to be option, if you consistent in this stance).
Also how you coincide this with this stance of yours? (bolded part):
On December 27 2023 07:29 flashymarine wrote:
About Palestinians returning, what is your solution? Kick out all the Jews from Israel? There are Israeli kids who were born in Israel who have grandparents were born in Israel. The ottomans conquered the middle east and then lost it to the British who then divided it up. My grandparents were born in country A, B, C, D and had parents who were born in countries E and F. I now live in country G. A lot of those countries that my grandparents live in no longer exist. I have no right to the land of my grandparents. I am not firing rockets into Austria because the Austro Hungarians "stole my land". No is fighting for me to get the land of my grandparents back. Palestinians were offered a 2 state solution multiple times and rejected it every time.
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On December 27 2023 10:42 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 10:35 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 10:11 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 27 2023 10:01 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 09:32 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 27 2023 07:29 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 06:23 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:
[quote]
Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument.
It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing? Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke? Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities. Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view. A lot going on in that post but will do my best to answer all those questions.
I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing?
Most importantly I am trying to push back against false claims which I believe are rooted in antisemitism. I believe lies spread about jewish people have directly lead to violence. October 7th was one such incident. Ethnic cleansing is a very strong claim and the facts do not support Israel committing it. I don't think everyone saying this is antisemitic and lying, but I do believe the claim is an antisemitic lie. It is very easy in the age of social media for false news to spread. If someone says anything in support of Israel immediately there is pushback. The arguments aren't attacked the poster is. So I too find myself questioning why I even bother trying sometimes.
Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke?
Saying the American south was racist and violent in the 19th century is not painting all American southerners with a single brush. It is making a general claim about the culture. Saying the Arab world is antisemitic does not mean every single individual Arab is antisemitic. Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Israel is responsible for the Jewish expulsion? Do explain. I don't know how this is going to be anything other than an awful take. Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Obviously this cannot be fully answered in a few sentences but it is not this simple. First no one is actually pushing for the Jews to return to their ME homes. No one cares that they were expelled from the middle east. No one is holding rallies for them and chanting slogans for them. You may think you care about all the historical injustices but you don't. You don't talk about what is going on in Yemen, or Sudan, or China or anywhere else. About Palestinians returning, what is your solution? Kick out all the Jews from Israel? There are Israeli kids who were born in Israel who have grandparents were born in Israel. The ottomans conquered the middle east and then lost it to the British who then divided it up. My grandparents were born in country A, B, C, D and had parents who were born in countries E and F. I now live in country G. A lot of those countries that my grandparents live in no longer exist. I have no right to the land of my grandparents. I am not firing rockets into Austria because the Austro Hungarians "stole my land". No is fighting for me to get the land of my grandparents back. Palestinians were offered a 2 state solution multiple times and rejected it every time. Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Was the US collectively punishing the Japanese or the Germans when they bombed them in world war 2? I don't know anyone who is happy when civilians die. Hamas could lay down their arms, surrender, and end this thing today. Israel lays down their arms and they get genocided today.
Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities.
This isn't an entirely useful way to look at things in my opinion. The Germans were also not implicitly evil. The generation before the Natzis and the generation after did no such thing. There isn't anything in their dna. But it wasn't just the government doing these things, the government reflects the will of the people to some extent. Populations have extreme antisemitic views lead to extreme outcomes. The germans were "protecting their nation" against the jews, the Palestinians are "fighting the occupation" once again against the jews. Saying the people are good the government is bad feels good to say. Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view. I am unclear which view you think I do not share. Thank you for taking the time to discuss each point. I disagree with calling it an antisemetic lie, not only because I find the claim legitmate, but also labelling it is an easy copout. I do think antisemitism is a serious issue, one that doesn't need to be tackled still, here in America (where Jews I believe still proprotionally suffer greater numbers of hate crimes than any other minority). Using that label when it is unjustified is problematic and lessens the labels legitmacy. With regards to the single stroke thing, I was referring to, from my admittedly limited understandinng on the matter, that the specific reason for jewish expulsion differed from country to country. Absolutely anti-semitism increased in the ME after the creation of Israel, and in many cases, we have countries where expulsion was caused by racism and bigotry, which I would further label as collective punishment and scapegoating. That was criminal. There were other cases (I believe Morocco and Yemen iirc) where expulsion was federally mandated after Israel (who have confirmed as much) intervened to create those mandates. Few things piss me off more than someone who doesn't know me telling me what I do or don't. You don't know what atrocities I bemoan, ignore or am unaware of, so please, that's quite pathetic. With regards to what I would do, the entirety of the land should be used to create a singular secular land. Israel isn't going to agree to give back any land, and the land the Palestinians currently have cannot realistically hold that many people in a comfortable manner. I honestly don't know what you believe ends if Hamas lays down their arms, so if you could expound on that I'd appreciate it. Fair enough. Dumb phrasing on my part. I was using "you" in place of the average internet user and did not mean you specifically. It was poorly written. You are completely right, I don't know what you specifically care or do not care about. Please don't let that distract from the point I was trying to make, that the online western internet world disproportionately cares about this conflict to the exclusion of others. If Hamas and Palestinians lay down there arms then this conflict ends. Not just the current flareup but the whole thing. They get a state of their own, the world pours money in, their standard of living shoots up, life is good. They could have had it way back in 1948. They can still have it today. I believe the root of the conflict is antisemitism. I think most people refuse to acknowledge it. Apology accepted, I should have given you the benefit of doubt. I don't disagree there is disproportionate care right now regarding this conflict just like at the start of last year there was disproportionate care towards Russia/Ukraine. I do disagree that outright surrender gets Palestine to 48. I don't see anything that suggests that. Everything I observe tells me Israel isn't stopping until they have all of the land. I find it frustrating that we bemoan the removal of people from their homes, bombing of children in refugee camps, restriction of internet access, flow of food/water and get told "yeah but it's really happening because yall are antisemetic". Serious question, do you believe ME was rife with antisemitism prior to 47? Yes 100%. I don't think that is even controversial. Europe was extremely antisemitic too and they basically killed the majority of their Jewish population. I have some hope. Israel pulled out their settlements from Gaza. en.wikipedia.orgI don't like the violence either. It sucks. Israel is in a super shitty situation. The government of the Gaza strip is a terrorist organization. They fire weapons from refugee camps and hide rockets in schools. So they either Israel ignores it or they fight back which results in civilian casualties. But rather than people say hey Hamas stop being dickheads people blame Israel. If even half of the effort was put into pressuring Hamas to surrender as the do on Israel this conflict would be long done. People act like Hamas is like the Rebels from star wars rather than the right wing regressive assholes they are. This is why I told you to read the previous discussions from this thread. What you're saying is false. Most if not all people in here have put most of the blame on Hamas. We've discussed why the controversy is mainly in regards to Israel, and not in regards to Hamas. Why we're not discussing Hamas' crimes but instead are focusing on those of the IDF, the Israeli government, and the Jewish settlers. We've gone over all of that before plenty of times. We want Israel to be held responsible. This is not contradictory to the view that Hamas should be held responsible as well. There are no "good sides" in this war. The war is fought between two opposing evils, with many innocent people caught in the middle. People have denied that Israel has similar levels of responsibility in the death and destruction as Hamas does. That's the controversial point, and that's why the focus is on Israel.
I didn't specify which people. I know everyone in this thread is enlightened and puts the blame on Hamas. But outside of here there are a lot of people supporting Hamas. I don't agree that there is any moral equivalency between Hamas and Israel. I think the settlers are needlessly enflaming tensions.
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On December 27 2023 10:38 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 08:49 Nebuchad wrote:On December 27 2023 07:49 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 07:36 Nebuchad wrote:On December 25 2023 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On December 25 2023 01:39 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 23:37 Nebuchad wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group Thanks for this helpful definition. Maybe you should call the dictionary and tell them to add those other things that you mentioned afterwards in the definition, that way your claim would be correct. Until then, I guess we'll stick with this definition, and under this definition Israel is obviously doing it. Nope sorry try again. They never rendered any area ethnically homogenous. Words have meanings. Sure they did. All of the areas that they settled. Yo flashymarine you must have missed this post, a common mistake I didn't respond because it was a low effort post. "All the areas that they settled". No specifics, no data, nothing. If you had said something like the Arab population of Israel increased by x amount and the population of Palestine increased by y amount we could discuss something. Of course we would quickly learn that is not in fact ethnic cleansing. But using the vague "areas they settled" is meaningless. As Magic Powers indicated in his high effort post, the areas that they settled was in reference to Israeli settlements in the West Bank, which are something specific. I was expecting you to know about that and understand what I'm talking about. As you can see, in answer to my post, JimmiC immediately asked about them, which indicates that it was clear to him as well. It wasn't vague at all. As you remember because you had this conversation with me, the claim was "they never rendered any area ethnically homogenous", which, clearly, they have. Once you have removed people from an area because of their ethnicity, using violence when necessary and sometimes killing people, to replace them with people of another ethnicity, you've already done the thing. We don't need to then see how many kids people are having in the other area that they've been chased to and have a competition. It was clear, and your source was helpful. As an aside, Generally I find it’s not worth the effort to respond to people with super low post counts and controversial opinions. More often than not they end up banned as PBUs. Prob best to not take to seriously.
I still like you Jimmy.
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On December 27 2023 10:35 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 10:11 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 27 2023 10:01 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 09:32 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 27 2023 07:29 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 06:23 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing? Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke? Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities. Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view. A lot going on in that post but will do my best to answer all those questions.
I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing?
Most importantly I am trying to push back against false claims which I believe are rooted in antisemitism. I believe lies spread about jewish people have directly lead to violence. October 7th was one such incident. Ethnic cleansing is a very strong claim and the facts do not support Israel committing it. I don't think everyone saying this is antisemitic and lying, but I do believe the claim is an antisemitic lie. It is very easy in the age of social media for false news to spread. If someone says anything in support of Israel immediately there is pushback. The arguments aren't attacked the poster is. So I too find myself questioning why I even bother trying sometimes.
Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke?
Saying the American south was racist and violent in the 19th century is not painting all American southerners with a single brush. It is making a general claim about the culture. Saying the Arab world is antisemitic does not mean every single individual Arab is antisemitic. Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Israel is responsible for the Jewish expulsion? Do explain. I don't know how this is going to be anything other than an awful take. Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Obviously this cannot be fully answered in a few sentences but it is not this simple. First no one is actually pushing for the Jews to return to their ME homes. No one cares that they were expelled from the middle east. No one is holding rallies for them and chanting slogans for them. You may think you care about all the historical injustices but you don't. You don't talk about what is going on in Yemen, or Sudan, or China or anywhere else. About Palestinians returning, what is your solution? Kick out all the Jews from Israel? There are Israeli kids who were born in Israel who have grandparents were born in Israel. The ottomans conquered the middle east and then lost it to the British who then divided it up. My grandparents were born in country A, B, C, D and had parents who were born in countries E and F. I now live in country G. A lot of those countries that my grandparents live in no longer exist. I have no right to the land of my grandparents. I am not firing rockets into Austria because the Austro Hungarians "stole my land". No is fighting for me to get the land of my grandparents back. Palestinians were offered a 2 state solution multiple times and rejected it every time. Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Was the US collectively punishing the Japanese or the Germans when they bombed them in world war 2? I don't know anyone who is happy when civilians die. Hamas could lay down their arms, surrender, and end this thing today. Israel lays down their arms and they get genocided today.
Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities.
This isn't an entirely useful way to look at things in my opinion. The Germans were also not implicitly evil. The generation before the Natzis and the generation after did no such thing. There isn't anything in their dna. But it wasn't just the government doing these things, the government reflects the will of the people to some extent. Populations have extreme antisemitic views lead to extreme outcomes. The germans were "protecting their nation" against the jews, the Palestinians are "fighting the occupation" once again against the jews. Saying the people are good the government is bad feels good to say. Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view. I am unclear which view you think I do not share. Thank you for taking the time to discuss each point. I disagree with calling it an antisemetic lie, not only because I find the claim legitmate, but also labelling it is an easy copout. I do think antisemitism is a serious issue, one that doesn't need to be tackled still, here in America (where Jews I believe still proprotionally suffer greater numbers of hate crimes than any other minority). Using that label when it is unjustified is problematic and lessens the labels legitmacy. With regards to the single stroke thing, I was referring to, from my admittedly limited understandinng on the matter, that the specific reason for jewish expulsion differed from country to country. Absolutely anti-semitism increased in the ME after the creation of Israel, and in many cases, we have countries where expulsion was caused by racism and bigotry, which I would further label as collective punishment and scapegoating. That was criminal. There were other cases (I believe Morocco and Yemen iirc) where expulsion was federally mandated after Israel (who have confirmed as much) intervened to create those mandates. Few things piss me off more than someone who doesn't know me telling me what I do or don't. You don't know what atrocities I bemoan, ignore or am unaware of, so please, that's quite pathetic. With regards to what I would do, the entirety of the land should be used to create a singular secular land. Israel isn't going to agree to give back any land, and the land the Palestinians currently have cannot realistically hold that many people in a comfortable manner. I honestly don't know what you believe ends if Hamas lays down their arms, so if you could expound on that I'd appreciate it. Fair enough. Dumb phrasing on my part. I was using "you" in place of the average internet user and did not mean you specifically. It was poorly written. You are completely right, I don't know what you specifically care or do not care about. Please don't let that distract from the point I was trying to make, that the online western internet world disproportionately cares about this conflict to the exclusion of others. If Hamas and Palestinians lay down there arms then this conflict ends. Not just the current flareup but the whole thing. They get a state of their own, the world pours money in, their standard of living shoots up, life is good. They could have had it way back in 1948. They can still have it today. I believe the root of the conflict is antisemitism. I think most people refuse to acknowledge it. Apology accepted, I should have given you the benefit of doubt. I don't disagree there is disproportionate care right now regarding this conflict just like at the start of last year there was disproportionate care towards Russia/Ukraine. I do disagree that outright surrender gets Palestine to 48. I don't see anything that suggests that. Everything I observe tells me Israel isn't stopping until they have all of the land. I find it frustrating that we bemoan the removal of people from their homes, bombing of children in refugee camps, restriction of internet access, flow of food/water and get told "yeah but it's really happening because yall are antisemetic". Serious question, do you believe ME was rife with antisemitism prior to 47? Yes 100%. I don't think that is even controversial. Europe was extremely antisemitic too and they basically killed the majority of their Jewish population. I have some hope. Israel pulled out their settlements from Gaza. en.wikipedia.orgI don't like the violence either. It sucks. Israel is in a super shitty situation. The government of the Gaza strip is a terrorist organization. They fire weapons from refugee camps and hide rockets in schools. So they either Israel ignores it or they fight back which results in civilian casualties. But rather than people say hey Hamas stop being dickheads people blame Israel. If even half of the effort was put into pressuring Hamas to surrender as the do on Israel this conflict would be long done. People act like Hamas is like the Rebels from star wars rather than the right wing regressive assholes they are.
I do want to be clear in case it wasn't apparant: it is the view of everyone in this thread that Hamas needs to go. No one here is defending them. Instead you have a contingent focused on that as a solution, and another who believe that by itself solves nothing because Israel has no reason to not continue with what its doing. Hamas doesn't exist in WB and yet the land is increasingly encroached on, I don't see how a removal of Hamas from Gaza suddenly fixes that,
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Bolded: Why not present Hamas view on it, surely it have similar level of objectivity?
Hundred percent fine with that.
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EPT
