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On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupYou keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s.
I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing? Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke? Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities. Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view.
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On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupYou keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s.
This thread has no antisemites.
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On December 27 2023 06:01 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 03:57 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 26 2023 21:32 Salazarz wrote:On December 26 2023 14:32 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 26 2023 10:38 JimmiC wrote:On December 26 2023 10:32 Salazarz wrote:
I don't get this bit. Surely demanding a government change as a precondition for peace isn't some kind of 'show of good intentions' by an invading force, and a government refusing to resign in exchange for peace isn't some outrageous fail on their part? Like, I don't see anyone telling Zelensky to step down and let Putin decide who will rule Ukraine next, how exactly is this different. People who believe Hamas is a terrorist organization set on the genocide of the country their at war with, are figuring that Israel is not going to accept those people running the country teaching the youth to hate and planning future attacks. It is a fool me once, kind of situation. The Ukrainian comparison is awful because it was not Zelensky who launched a genocidal terroristic attack to start the war. If Ukraine was far more powerful and had counter attacked Russia after their initial attack, rapes and murder, and was demanding Putin be removed it would be a better comparison. Just to add to this, the Allies did effectively demand a change of government from Germany and Japan for them to stop fighting World War 2. (Actually they demanded unconditional surrender, which is even more than that.) If a government cares more about the lives of the people it governs over it's political goals, accepting regime change is not a crazy result for the loser of a war. Hamas will definitely not accept that because they have made very clear that they value their political goals over the lives of every man, woman, and child in Gaza (I believe they recently made a statement along the lines of "if every Palestinian died, but we destroyed Israel, we would make that trade"). However, Hamas' standards are far from the bar of defining reasonable demands or offers. So Zelensky should tell Ukrainians to lay down their arms and surrender if he wants to prove that he cares about lives of his countrymen more than his own political goals, is that what you're saying? From the perspective of a peoples that are being oppressed, surrendering and accepting a government change forced by an occupying force isn't a show of compassion, it's an admission of failure and a national humiliation. The idea that radical terrorism from Gaza would stop if the only change was that Hamas government stepped down is silly; their radicalization is fueled by the actions of Israel and forcing a government change wouldn't reduce radicalization, if anything it'd make Palestinians hate Israel even more. Terrorism in Palestine didn't begin with Hamas, and it certainly wouldn't end with it either unless other changes were made. The point is not to "prove you care about your people by surrendering," it's to actually do what's best for your people. In Ukraine's case, they can reasonably expect much better results by continuing the war than by surrendering at this point. In an alternative scenario where Russia already had military control over 70% of Ukraine and it was pretty clear that they were going to take the rest by force in short order: it would be reasonable for Ukraine to surrender rather than fighting to the death of their last man. Obviously that would be a bad result for them. But it would be the better of the alternatives provided in that scenario. There have been hundreds of governing organizations throughout history that have surrendered in the face of impending defeat. I hardly think that all of them were insane and making an irrational choice by surrendering. If you think fighting to the death is preferable, then you are a zealot (or at least you think Palestinians should be zealots) for your cause. As to your questions of will this actually be effective at deradicalizing the local population, that is really a question for Israel, not Hamas, and is a separate discussion. We can pivot to discussing most effective methods for that now if you'd like. No one who cares about the local population is going to be using the Human Shield strategy. It is also pretty dumb of the whole world to be putting 100% of the blame for the civilian deaths on the IDF. It makes the human shield strategy a very effective tool for future terrorist groups. We all should be putting much of the blame on Hamas, not legitimizing them. And we should also be taking into account the civilians that Hamas is directly killing with their snipers and with their failed rocket attacks.
That's part of why we've posted examples of the IDF doing the same, whether it be due to incompetence or malice. From multiple reports we know they've shot innocent people with bullets and blasted them with missiles. That's including journalists and even their own hostage soldiers.
Previously some people had the default assumption that the IDF and the Israeli government are in the right simply because Hamas is in the wrong - a fallacy that has been sufficiently disproven. The next step will be to undermine the other default assumption that the IDF kills the wrong targets only due to incompetence, but not due to malice. This assumption was baseless, and it's very important that the losing side of this war won't be forgotten. The thousands of civilian casualties all have their own stories, and from the evidence we have it's looking worse and worse for the IDF's reputation.
So, while it's easy to point at Hamas, there are still far too many people (mostly outside of this thread admittedly) who aren't yet convinced - or even entertaining the idea - that Israel is not the good guy in this story. For the narrative to balance out closer to the truth it's important that we manage to make people question their core assumptions.
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On December 27 2023 06:23 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupYou keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing? Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke? Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities. Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view.
A lot going on in that post but will do my best to answer all those questions.
I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing?
Most importantly I am trying to push back against false claims which I believe are rooted in antisemitism. I believe lies spread about jewish people have directly lead to violence. October 7th was one such incident. Ethnic cleansing is a very strong claim and the facts do not support Israel committing it. I don't think everyone saying this is antisemitic and lying, but I do believe the claim is an antisemitic lie. It is very easy in the age of social media for false news to spread. If someone says anything in support of Israel immediately there is pushback. The arguments aren't attacked the poster is. So I too find myself questioning why I even bother trying sometimes.
Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke?
Saying the American south was racist and violent in the 19th century is not painting all American southerners with a single brush. It is making a general claim about the culture. Saying the Arab world is antisemitic does not mean every single individual Arab is antisemitic.
Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Israel is responsible for the Jewish expulsion? Do explain. I don't know how this is going to be anything other than an awful take.
Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Obviously this cannot be fully answered in a few sentences but it is not this simple. First no one is actually pushing for the Jews to return to their ME homes. No one cares that they were expelled from the middle east. No one is holding rallies for them and chanting slogans for them. You may think you care about all the historical injustices but you don't. You don't talk about what is going on in Yemen, or Sudan, or China or anywhere else.
About Palestinians returning, what is your solution? Kick out all the Jews from Israel? There are Israeli kids who were born in Israel who have grandparents were born in Israel. The ottomans conquered the middle east and then lost it to the British who then divided it up. My grandparents were born in country A, B, C, D and had parents who were born in countries E and F. I now live in country G. A lot of those countries that my grandparents live in no longer exist. I have no right to the land of my grandparents. I am not firing rockets into Austria because the Austro Hungarians "stole my land". No is fighting for me to get the land of my grandparents back. Palestinians were offered a 2 state solution multiple times and rejected it every time.
Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews.
Was the US collectively punishing the Japanese or the Germans when they bombed them in world war 2? I don't know anyone who is happy when civilians die. Hamas could lay down their arms, surrender, and end this thing today. Israel lays down their arms and they get genocided today.
Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities.
This isn't an entirely useful way to look at things in my opinion. The Germans were also not implicitly evil. The generation before the Natzis and the generation after did no such thing. There isn't anything in their dna. But it wasn't just the government doing these things, the government reflects the will of the people to some extent. Populations have extreme antisemitic views lead to extreme outcomes. The germans were "protecting their nation" against the jews, the Palestinians are "fighting the occupation" once again against the jews. Saying the people are good the government is bad feels good to say.
Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view.
I am unclear which view you think I do not share.
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On December 27 2023 07:09 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupYou keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. This thread has no antisemites.
Yup and Austria has no antisemites either. https://www.ft.com/content/3a78f9df-dfcf-45b4-9344-8e0d161f8e81
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On December 25 2023 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 01:39 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 23:37 Nebuchad wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group Thanks for this helpful definition. Maybe you should call the dictionary and tell them to add those other things that you mentioned afterwards in the definition, that way your claim would be correct. Until then, I guess we'll stick with this definition, and under this definition Israel is obviously doing it. Nope sorry try again. They never rendered any area ethnically homogenous. Words have meanings. Sure they did. All of the areas that they settled.
Yo flashymarine you must have missed this post, a common mistake
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On December 27 2023 07:36 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On December 25 2023 01:39 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 23:37 Nebuchad wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group Thanks for this helpful definition. Maybe you should call the dictionary and tell them to add those other things that you mentioned afterwards in the definition, that way your claim would be correct. Until then, I guess we'll stick with this definition, and under this definition Israel is obviously doing it. Nope sorry try again. They never rendered any area ethnically homogenous. Words have meanings. Sure they did. All of the areas that they settled. Yo flashymarine you must have missed this post, a common mistake
I didn't respond because it was a low effort post. "All the areas that they settled". No specifics, no data, nothing. If you had said something like the Arab population of Israel increased by x amount and the population of Palestine increased by y amount we could discuss something. Of course we would quickly learn that is not in fact ethnic cleansing. But using the vague "areas they settled" is meaningless.
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On December 27 2023 07:31 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 07:09 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupYou keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. This thread has no antisemites. Yup and Austria has no antisemites either. https://www.ft.com/content/3a78f9df-dfcf-45b4-9344-8e0d161f8e81
Stop being an idiot. Name the person in this thread who you think is an antisemite.
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On December 27 2023 07:49 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 07:36 Nebuchad wrote:On December 25 2023 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On December 25 2023 01:39 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 23:37 Nebuchad wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group Thanks for this helpful definition. Maybe you should call the dictionary and tell them to add those other things that you mentioned afterwards in the definition, that way your claim would be correct. Until then, I guess we'll stick with this definition, and under this definition Israel is obviously doing it. Nope sorry try again. They never rendered any area ethnically homogenous. Words have meanings. Sure they did. All of the areas that they settled. Yo flashymarine you must have missed this post, a common mistake I didn't respond because it was a low effort post. "All the areas that they settled". No specifics, no data, nothing. If you had said something like the Arab population of Israel increased by x amount and the population of Palestine increased by y amount we could discuss something. Of course we would quickly learn that is not in fact ethnic cleansing. But using the vague "areas they settled" is meaningless.
The West bank does not belong to Israel. Today there are massive militarized zones and roads separating a huge area of illegal Jewish settlements from the Palestinian population, weaving through the whole region, cutting off the Palestinians and making their lives much harder. That zone is controlled and financed by the State of Israel, and it has resulted in an ethnic and economic divide between the Jewish and Palestinian people in the West bank. The Palestinians are forbidden from moving between these zones, making it very hard for them to pursue their various economic interests. The Jewish settlers, despite occupying the land illegally, continue to attack and displace the locals and grab more of their land. The amount of land controlled by the illegal settlers is now roughly equal to that of the Palestinian locals, despite the Palestinians vastly outnumbering the illegal settlers.
All of this land lawfully belongs to Palestinians.
Visualization of the aftermath:
![[image loading]](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/480/cpsprodpb/F78D/production/_109737336_west_bank_settlements_oct_2019_640_3x-nc.png)
Source:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52756427
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On December 27 2023 03:57 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2023 21:32 Salazarz wrote:On December 26 2023 14:32 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 26 2023 10:38 JimmiC wrote:On December 26 2023 10:32 Salazarz wrote:
I don't get this bit. Surely demanding a government change as a precondition for peace isn't some kind of 'show of good intentions' by an invading force, and a government refusing to resign in exchange for peace isn't some outrageous fail on their part? Like, I don't see anyone telling Zelensky to step down and let Putin decide who will rule Ukraine next, how exactly is this different. People who believe Hamas is a terrorist organization set on the genocide of the country their at war with, are figuring that Israel is not going to accept those people running the country teaching the youth to hate and planning future attacks. It is a fool me once, kind of situation. The Ukrainian comparison is awful because it was not Zelensky who launched a genocidal terroristic attack to start the war. If Ukraine was far more powerful and had counter attacked Russia after their initial attack, rapes and murder, and was demanding Putin be removed it would be a better comparison. Just to add to this, the Allies did effectively demand a change of government from Germany and Japan for them to stop fighting World War 2. (Actually they demanded unconditional surrender, which is even more than that.) If a government cares more about the lives of the people it governs over it's political goals, accepting regime change is not a crazy result for the loser of a war. Hamas will definitely not accept that because they have made very clear that they value their political goals over the lives of every man, woman, and child in Gaza (I believe they recently made a statement along the lines of "if every Palestinian died, but we destroyed Israel, we would make that trade"). However, Hamas' standards are far from the bar of defining reasonable demands or offers. So Zelensky should tell Ukrainians to lay down their arms and surrender if he wants to prove that he cares about lives of his countrymen more than his own political goals, is that what you're saying? From the perspective of a peoples that are being oppressed, surrendering and accepting a government change forced by an occupying force isn't a show of compassion, it's an admission of failure and a national humiliation. The idea that radical terrorism from Gaza would stop if the only change was that Hamas government stepped down is silly; their radicalization is fueled by the actions of Israel and forcing a government change wouldn't reduce radicalization, if anything it'd make Palestinians hate Israel even more. Terrorism in Palestine didn't begin with Hamas, and it certainly wouldn't end with it either unless other changes were made. The point is not to "prove you care about your people by surrendering," it's to actually do what's best for your people. In Ukraine's case, they can reasonably expect much better results by continuing the war than by surrendering at this point. In an alternative scenario where Russia already had military control over 70% of Ukraine and it was pretty clear that they were going to take the rest by force in short order: it would be reasonable for Ukraine to surrender rather than fighting to the death of their last man. Obviously that would be a bad result for them. But it would be the better of the alternatives provided in that scenario. There have been hundreds of governing organizations throughout history that have surrendered in the face of impending defeat. I hardly think that all of them were insane and making an irrational choice by surrendering. If you think fighting to the death is preferable, then you are a zealot (or at least you think Palestinians should be zealots) for your cause. As to your questions of will this actually be effective at deradicalizing the local population, that is really a question for Israel, not Hamas, and is a separate discussion. We can pivot to discussing most effective methods for that now if you'd like.
This somewhat reads like" Palestinians have no chance anyway, so they should just give up, instead of making things awkward."
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On December 27 2023 08:08 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 07:31 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 07:09 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupYou keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. This thread has no antisemites. Yup and Austria has no antisemites either. https://www.ft.com/content/3a78f9df-dfcf-45b4-9344-8e0d161f8e81 Stop being an idiot. Name the person in this thread who you think is an antisemite.
Antisemitism isn't usually a x person is a bad man! Burn him! sort of thing. It is more of a oh wow I can't believe we as a people used to think that way sort of thing. In my grandparents generation there were very few people wearing a hood. And very many people who casually said some very suspect things.
I don't think there are any hood wearing, holocaust denying antisemites in the thread. But there are sure a lot of people repeating some very questionable statements about Israel. It is this kind of antisemitism that lends to support to the hood wearing kind that fires rockets at them on a daily basis.
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On December 27 2023 08:38 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 08:08 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 07:31 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 07:09 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupYou keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. This thread has no antisemites. Yup and Austria has no antisemites either. https://www.ft.com/content/3a78f9df-dfcf-45b4-9344-8e0d161f8e81 Stop being an idiot. Name the person in this thread who you think is an antisemite. Antisemitism isn't usually a x person is a bad man! Burn him! sort of thing. It is more of a oh wow I can't believe we as a people used to think that way sort of thing. In my grandparents generation there were very few people wearing a hood. And very many people who casually said some very suspect things. I don't think there are any hood wearing, holocaust denying antisemites in the thread. But there are sure a lot of people repeating some very questionable statements about Israel. It is this kind of antisemitism that lends to support to the hood wearing kind that fires rockets at them on a daily basis. Ah I see, the problem is that you don't actually know what antisemitism is. Being critical of the state of Israel isn't antisemitism. I can hate the state of Israel for what its doing to Palestinians without blaming the Jewish people for being Jewish.
A big part of Israel's ability to get away with things like ethnic cleaning is to miscategorise any criticism of the state as antisemitism.
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On December 27 2023 07:49 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 07:36 Nebuchad wrote:On December 25 2023 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On December 25 2023 01:39 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 23:37 Nebuchad wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group Thanks for this helpful definition. Maybe you should call the dictionary and tell them to add those other things that you mentioned afterwards in the definition, that way your claim would be correct. Until then, I guess we'll stick with this definition, and under this definition Israel is obviously doing it. Nope sorry try again. They never rendered any area ethnically homogenous. Words have meanings. Sure they did. All of the areas that they settled. Yo flashymarine you must have missed this post, a common mistake I didn't respond because it was a low effort post. "All the areas that they settled". No specifics, no data, nothing. If you had said something like the Arab population of Israel increased by x amount and the population of Palestine increased by y amount we could discuss something. Of course we would quickly learn that is not in fact ethnic cleansing. But using the vague "areas they settled" is meaningless.
As Magic Powers indicated in his high effort post, the areas that they settled was in reference to Israeli settlements in the West Bank, which are something specific. I was expecting you to know about that and understand what I'm talking about. As you can see, in answer to my post, JimmiC immediately asked about them, which indicates that it was clear to him as well. It wasn't vague at all.
As you remember because you had this conversation with me, the claim was "they never rendered any area ethnically homogenous", which, clearly, they have. Once you have removed people from an area because of their ethnicity, using violence when necessary and sometimes killing people, to replace them with people of another ethnicity, you've already done the thing. We don't need to then see how many kids people are having in the other area that they've been chased to and have a competition.
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On December 27 2023 08:38 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 08:08 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 07:31 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 07:09 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupYou keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. This thread has no antisemites. Yup and Austria has no antisemites either. https://www.ft.com/content/3a78f9df-dfcf-45b4-9344-8e0d161f8e81 Stop being an idiot. Name the person in this thread who you think is an antisemite. Antisemitism isn't usually a x person is a bad man! Burn him! sort of thing. It is more of a oh wow I can't believe we as a people used to think that way sort of thing. In my grandparents generation there were very few people wearing a hood. And very many people who casually said some very suspect things. I don't think there are any hood wearing, holocaust denying antisemites in the thread. But there are sure a lot of people repeating some very questionable statements about Israel. It is this kind of antisemitism that lends to support to the hood wearing kind that fires rockets at them on a daily basis.
The way you're using the accusation of antisemitism is absolutely a "bad person, burn them!" sort of thing. It is baseless, it is strictly a lie. You're using it to defame the people you're arguing with so you don't have to engage with their arguments.
Meanwhile you deny the claim of ethnic cleansing in the West bank. The evidence is easily available and there's no excuse for you not to know about the objective element of ethnic and religious displacement. I'd forgive your ignorance if you weren't so quick to accuse me and others of being antisemites, but I won't be so lenient with you.
Read the article I posted and then say again that there's definitely no ethnic cleansing happening in the West bank. Dare say again that it's just antisemitism that drives the accusation of ethnic cleansing.
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On December 27 2023 08:18 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 07:49 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 07:36 Nebuchad wrote:On December 25 2023 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On December 25 2023 01:39 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 23:37 Nebuchad wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group Thanks for this helpful definition. Maybe you should call the dictionary and tell them to add those other things that you mentioned afterwards in the definition, that way your claim would be correct. Until then, I guess we'll stick with this definition, and under this definition Israel is obviously doing it. Nope sorry try again. They never rendered any area ethnically homogenous. Words have meanings. Sure they did. All of the areas that they settled. Yo flashymarine you must have missed this post, a common mistake I didn't respond because it was a low effort post. "All the areas that they settled". No specifics, no data, nothing. If you had said something like the Arab population of Israel increased by x amount and the population of Palestine increased by y amount we could discuss something. Of course we would quickly learn that is not in fact ethnic cleansing. But using the vague "areas they settled" is meaningless. The West bank does not belong to Israel. Today there are massive militarized zones and roads separating a huge area of illegal Jewish settlements from the Palestinian population, weaving through the whole region, cutting off the Palestinians and making their lives much harder. That zone is controlled and financed by the State of Israel, and it has resulted in an ethnic and economic divide between the Jewish and Palestinian people in the West bank. The Palestinians are forbidden from moving between these zones, making it very hard for them to pursue their various economic interests. The Jewish settlers, despite occupying the land illegally, continue to attack and displace the locals and grab more of their land. The amount of land controlled by the illegal settlers is now roughly equal to that of the Palestinian locals, despite the Palestinians vastly outnumbering the illegal settlers. All of this land lawfully belongs to Palestinians. Visualization of the aftermath: Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52756427
Is it fair to acknowledge that even if I grant that everything you claim is true, it does not in fact meet the definition of ethnic cleansing?
In contrast to the view presented above here is the Israeli governments view. https://www.gov.il/en/departments/general/israeli-settlement-and-international-law
Attempts to present Jewish settlement in West Bank territory (ancient Judea and Samaria) as illegal and "colonial" in nature ignores the complexity of this issue, the history of the land, and the unique legal circumstances of this case.
Jewish communities in this territory have existed from time immemorial and express the deep connection of the Jewish people to land which is the cradle of their civilization, as affirmed by the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, and from which they, or their ancestors, were ousted.
The prohibition against the forcible transfer of civilians to territory of an occupied state under the Fourth Geneva Convention was not intended to relate to the circumstances of voluntary Jewish settlement in the West Bank on legitimately acquired land which did not belong to a previous lawful sovereign and which was designated as part of the Jewish State under the League of Nations Mandate.
Bilateral Israeli-Palestinian Agreements specifically affirm that settlements are subject to agreed and exclusive Israeli jurisdiction pending the outcome of peace negotiations, and do not prohibit settlement activity.
Israel remains committed to peace negotiations without preconditions in order to resolve all outstanding issues and competing claims. It continues to ask the Palestinian side to respond in kind. It is hoped that such negotiations will produce an agreed peaceful settlement which will give legitimate expression to the connection of both Jews and Palestinians to this ancient land.
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On December 27 2023 08:51 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 08:38 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 08:08 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 07:31 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 07:09 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:
[quote]
Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group
You keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. This thread has no antisemites. Yup and Austria has no antisemites either. https://www.ft.com/content/3a78f9df-dfcf-45b4-9344-8e0d161f8e81 Stop being an idiot. Name the person in this thread who you think is an antisemite. Antisemitism isn't usually a x person is a bad man! Burn him! sort of thing. It is more of a oh wow I can't believe we as a people used to think that way sort of thing. In my grandparents generation there were very few people wearing a hood. And very many people who casually said some very suspect things. I don't think there are any hood wearing, holocaust denying antisemites in the thread. But there are sure a lot of people repeating some very questionable statements about Israel. It is this kind of antisemitism that lends to support to the hood wearing kind that fires rockets at them on a daily basis. The way you're using the accusation of antisemitism is absolutely a "bad person, burn them!" sort of thing. It is baseless, it is strictly a lie. You're using it to defame the people you're arguing with so you don't have to engage with their arguments. Meanwhile you deny the claim of ethnic cleansing in the West bank. The evidence is easily available and there's no excuse for you not to know about the objective element of ethnic and religious displacement. I'd forgive your ignorance if you weren't so quick to accuse me and others of being antisemites, but I won't be so lenient with you. Read the article I posted and then say again that there's definitely no ethnic cleansing happening in the West bank. Dare say again that it's just antisemitism that drives the accusation of ethnic cleansing.
Who did I accuse of being an antisemite?
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Northern Ireland23151 Posts
On December 27 2023 09:22 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 08:51 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 08:38 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 08:08 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 07:31 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 07:09 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. This thread has no antisemites. Yup and Austria has no antisemites either. https://www.ft.com/content/3a78f9df-dfcf-45b4-9344-8e0d161f8e81 Stop being an idiot. Name the person in this thread who you think is an antisemite. Antisemitism isn't usually a x person is a bad man! Burn him! sort of thing. It is more of a oh wow I can't believe we as a people used to think that way sort of thing. In my grandparents generation there were very few people wearing a hood. And very many people who casually said some very suspect things. I don't think there are any hood wearing, holocaust denying antisemites in the thread. But there are sure a lot of people repeating some very questionable statements about Israel. It is this kind of antisemitism that lends to support to the hood wearing kind that fires rockets at them on a daily basis. The way you're using the accusation of antisemitism is absolutely a "bad person, burn them!" sort of thing. It is baseless, it is strictly a lie. You're using it to defame the people you're arguing with so you don't have to engage with their arguments. Meanwhile you deny the claim of ethnic cleansing in the West bank. The evidence is easily available and there's no excuse for you not to know about the objective element of ethnic and religious displacement. I'd forgive your ignorance if you weren't so quick to accuse me and others of being antisemites, but I won't be so lenient with you. Read the article I posted and then say again that there's definitely no ethnic cleansing happening in the West bank. Dare say again that it's just antisemitism that drives the accusation of ethnic cleansing. Who did I accuse of being an antisemite?
This post maybe?
On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupYou keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged.
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On December 27 2023 09:12 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 08:18 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 07:49 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 07:36 Nebuchad wrote:On December 25 2023 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On December 25 2023 01:39 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 23:37 Nebuchad wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group Thanks for this helpful definition. Maybe you should call the dictionary and tell them to add those other things that you mentioned afterwards in the definition, that way your claim would be correct. Until then, I guess we'll stick with this definition, and under this definition Israel is obviously doing it. Nope sorry try again. They never rendered any area ethnically homogenous. Words have meanings. Sure they did. All of the areas that they settled. Yo flashymarine you must have missed this post, a common mistake I didn't respond because it was a low effort post. "All the areas that they settled". No specifics, no data, nothing. If you had said something like the Arab population of Israel increased by x amount and the population of Palestine increased by y amount we could discuss something. Of course we would quickly learn that is not in fact ethnic cleansing. But using the vague "areas they settled" is meaningless. The West bank does not belong to Israel. Today there are massive militarized zones and roads separating a huge area of illegal Jewish settlements from the Palestinian population, weaving through the whole region, cutting off the Palestinians and making their lives much harder. That zone is controlled and financed by the State of Israel, and it has resulted in an ethnic and economic divide between the Jewish and Palestinian people in the West bank. The Palestinians are forbidden from moving between these zones, making it very hard for them to pursue their various economic interests. The Jewish settlers, despite occupying the land illegally, continue to attack and displace the locals and grab more of their land. The amount of land controlled by the illegal settlers is now roughly equal to that of the Palestinian locals, despite the Palestinians vastly outnumbering the illegal settlers. All of this land lawfully belongs to Palestinians. Visualization of the aftermath: Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52756427 Is it fair to acknowledge that even if I grant that everything you claim is true, it does not in fact meet the definition of ethnic cleansing? In contrast to the view presented above here is the Israeli governments view. https://www.gov.il/en/departments/general/israeli-settlement-and-international-lawShow nested quote +
Attempts to present Jewish settlement in West Bank territory (ancient Judea and Samaria) as illegal and "colonial" in nature ignores the complexity of this issue, the history of the land, and the unique legal circumstances of this case.
Jewish communities in this territory have existed from time immemorial and express the deep connection of the Jewish people to land which is the cradle of their civilization, as affirmed by the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, and from which they, or their ancestors, were ousted.
The prohibition against the forcible transfer of civilians to territory of an occupied state under the Fourth Geneva Convention was not intended to relate to the circumstances of voluntary Jewish settlement in the West Bank on legitimately acquired land which did not belong to a previous lawful sovereign and which was designated as part of the Jewish State under the League of Nations Mandate.
Bilateral Israeli-Palestinian Agreements specifically affirm that settlements are subject to agreed and exclusive Israeli jurisdiction pending the outcome of peace negotiations, and do not prohibit settlement activity.
Israel remains committed to peace negotiations without preconditions in order to resolve all outstanding issues and competing claims. It continues to ask the Palestinian side to respond in kind. It is hoped that such negotiations will produce an agreed peaceful settlement which will give legitimate expression to the connection of both Jews and Palestinians to this ancient land.
People can disagree with the term "ethnic cleansing" due to various technicalities, but they cannot disagree with the severity of the issue.
Furthermore the Israeli government is justifying the unjustifiable. There is no historical Jewish claim to any of the Palestinian region. Not legally, not religiously.
The Israeli government is founded on zionism an it continues to propagate this ideology today. That's not the ideology of the Jewish people, it's a nationalist ideology. A collectivist ideology. Zionists had no interests in anyone other than their own, they never cared about the Palestinian people as anything more than an inconvenience (or competition) to get rid of since the conception of Zionism.
This can be seen in the Apartheid that Palestinians in the West bank and Jewish settlers are experiencing, wherein the Palestinian population is effectively under military occupation and the Jewish settlers are effectively the occupiers. Palestinians were ousted through various means from their lands, and the Israeli militarization (which includes checkpoints, massive walls, barb wire, mass surveillance, and other means) is functioning as a death blow to any Palestinian aspirations of growth.
And then there's Gaza.
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On December 27 2023 07:29 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 06:23 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupYou keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing? Paint all arabs in the same light with a single stroke? Ignore Israel's responsibility for the Jewish expulsion? Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities. Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view. A lot going on in that post but will do my best to answer all those questions. Show nested quote +
I'm not sure why this discussion is even being held at this point? What are you trying to achieve? Justify the crimes Israel is committing?
Most importantly I am trying to push back against false claims which I believe are rooted in antisemitism. I believe lies spread about jewish people have directly lead to violence. October 7th was one such incident. Ethnic cleansing is a very strong claim and the facts do not support Israel committing it. I don't think everyone saying this is antisemitic and lying, but I do believe the claim is an antisemitic lie. It is very easy in the age of social media for false news to spread. If someone says anything in support of Israel immediately there is pushback. The arguments aren't attacked the poster is. So I too find myself questioning why I even bother trying sometimes. Saying the American south was racist and violent in the 19th century is not painting all American southerners with a single brush. It is making a general claim about the culture. Saying the Arab world is antisemitic does not mean every single individual Arab is antisemitic. Israel is responsible for the Jewish expulsion? Do explain. I don't know how this is going to be anything other than an awful take. Show nested quote +Jews have a right to return to their ME homes, and Palestinians have the right to return in the land that is now Israel. Obviously this cannot be fully answered in a few sentences but it is not this simple. First no one is actually pushing for the Jews to return to their ME homes. No one cares that they were expelled from the middle east. No one is holding rallies for them and chanting slogans for them. You may think you care about all the historical injustices but you don't. You don't talk about what is going on in Yemen, or Sudan, or China or anywhere else. About Palestinians returning, what is your solution? Kick out all the Jews from Israel? There are Israeli kids who were born in Israel who have grandparents were born in Israel. The ottomans conquered the middle east and then lost it to the British who then divided it up. My grandparents were born in country A, B, C, D and had parents who were born in countries E and F. I now live in country G. A lot of those countries that my grandparents live in no longer exist. I have no right to the land of my grandparents. I am not firing rockets into Austria because the Austro Hungarians "stole my land". No is fighting for me to get the land of my grandparents back. Palestinians were offered a 2 state solution multiple times and rejected it every time. Show nested quote + Collective punishment is fucked. It's fucked when performed on Palestinians, it's fucked when performed on Jews. Was the US collectively punishing the Japanese or the Germans when they bombed them in world war 2? I don't know anyone who is happy when civilians die. Hamas could lay down their arms, surrender, and end this thing today. Israel lays down their arms and they get genocided today. Show nested quote +
Generally speaking this group is quite clear that neither Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis are implicitly evil, but the actions of multiple governments in the area are responsible for atrocities.
This isn't an entirely useful way to look at things in my opinion. The Germans were also not implicitly evil. The generation before the Natzis and the generation after did no such thing. There isn't anything in their dna. But it wasn't just the government doing these things, the government reflects the will of the people to some extent. Populations have extreme antisemitic views lead to extreme outcomes. The germans were "protecting their nation" against the jews, the Palestinians are "fighting the occupation" once again against the jews. Saying the people are good the government is bad feels good to say. Show nested quote +Where we differ is how much any particular group is to blame and how the problem should be solved. I do not see you holding that same view. I am unclear which view you think I do not share.
Thank you for taking the time to discuss each point.
I disagree with calling it an antisemetic lie, not only because I find the claim legitmate, but also labelling it is an easy copout. I do think antisemitism is a serious issue, one that doesn't need to be tackled still, here in America (where Jews I believe still proprotionally suffer greater numbers of hate crimes than any other minority). Using that label when it is unjustified is problematic and lessens the labels legitmacy.
With regards to the single stroke thing, I was referring to, from my admittedly limited understandinng on the matter, that the specific reason for jewish expulsion differed from country to country. Absolutely anti-semitism increased in the ME after the creation of Israel, and in many cases, we have countries where expulsion was caused by racism and bigotry, which I would further label as collective punishment and scapegoating. That was criminal. There were other cases (I believe Morocco and Yemen iirc) where expulsion was federally mandated after Israel (who have confirmed as much) intervened to create those mandates.
Few things piss me off more than someone who doesn't know me telling me what I do or don't. You don't know what atrocities I bemoan, ignore or am unaware of, so please, that's quite pathetic.
With regards to what I would do, the entirety of the land should be used to create a singular secular land. Israel isn't going to agree to give back any land, and the land the Palestinians currently have cannot realistically hold that many people in a comfortable manner.
I honestly don't know what you believe ends if Hamas lays down their arms, so if you could expound on that I'd appreciate it.
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On December 27 2023 09:26 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 09:22 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 08:51 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 08:38 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 08:08 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 07:31 flashymarine wrote:On December 27 2023 07:09 Magic Powers wrote:On December 27 2023 05:52 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 19:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:
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Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument.
It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged. Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once. Interesting that when people falsely claim ethnic cleansing you don't chastise them for bringing up things this thread has already gone over. But when someone responds to it then suddenly you claim that the time for discussion is over. Also it is not an unfounded accusation of antisemitism. It can be painful to acknowledge the history of antisemitism so it is easy to deny its existence. If you would like to educate yourself you can start with a certain Austrian born politician from the 1930s. This thread has no antisemites. Yup and Austria has no antisemites either. https://www.ft.com/content/3a78f9df-dfcf-45b4-9344-8e0d161f8e81 Stop being an idiot. Name the person in this thread who you think is an antisemite. Antisemitism isn't usually a x person is a bad man! Burn him! sort of thing. It is more of a oh wow I can't believe we as a people used to think that way sort of thing. In my grandparents generation there were very few people wearing a hood. And very many people who casually said some very suspect things. I don't think there are any hood wearing, holocaust denying antisemites in the thread. But there are sure a lot of people repeating some very questionable statements about Israel. It is this kind of antisemitism that lends to support to the hood wearing kind that fires rockets at them on a daily basis. The way you're using the accusation of antisemitism is absolutely a "bad person, burn them!" sort of thing. It is baseless, it is strictly a lie. You're using it to defame the people you're arguing with so you don't have to engage with their arguments. Meanwhile you deny the claim of ethnic cleansing in the West bank. The evidence is easily available and there's no excuse for you not to know about the objective element of ethnic and religious displacement. I'd forgive your ignorance if you weren't so quick to accuse me and others of being antisemites, but I won't be so lenient with you. Read the article I posted and then say again that there's definitely no ethnic cleansing happening in the West bank. Dare say again that it's just antisemitism that drives the accusation of ethnic cleansing. Who did I accuse of being an antisemite? This post maybe? Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupYou keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged.
It is an antisemitic lie! I never accused anyone in the thread of being antisemitic. Those two statements can coexist. Hamas or Iran or whoever comes up with some nonsense, it gets spread on social media. The person repeating it is just sharing what they read. I am not smearing the person sharing it. They don't know any better.
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