|
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On December 24 2023 20:00 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd also like to mention that, while I do believe there was a significant level of expulsion of Jews from Arab nations, the clear majority of their movement was to Israel and their migration was mainly not under force or coercion. Labeling literally the entirety of the Jewish migration out of Arab nations "ethnic cleansing" instead of referring to more specific/isolated cases is practically painting reality as the opposite of what it is. Jews predominantly chose to leave Arab nations in the direct aftermath of Israel's creation. This is not in any capacity comparable to the literal displacement and/or the Apartheid that has been happening in the West bank.
You’re painting a different picture than what I have read. Can you clarify which of the points described in the section pertaining to the Middle East you think is inaccurate?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
You didn’t quantify what % was due to collective punishment, but various countries are described in detail and these descriptions paint a very different picture qualitatively. Is it that there is a specific country you’re saying wasn’t mainly from governments targeting Jews as punishment for the formation of Israel? If you read through the section on the Middle East, you’ll see some pretty extreme examples of force and coercion.
Since we’ve had a couple examples of different understandings of history, it’s important to make sure we are making the same assumptions. Am I misreading your message, or are you saying the descriptions in that link above are inaccurate?
|
On December 25 2023 02:50 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 02:44 Nebuchad wrote:On December 25 2023 02:36 JimmiC wrote:On December 25 2023 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On December 25 2023 01:39 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 23:37 Nebuchad wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group Thanks for this helpful definition. Maybe you should call the dictionary and tell them to add those other things that you mentioned afterwards in the definition, that way your claim would be correct. Until then, I guess we'll stick with this definition, and under this definition Israel is obviously doing it. Nope sorry try again. They never rendered any area ethnically homogenous. Words have meanings. Sure they did. All of the areas that they settled. Source on the demographics for the settlements? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement Thank you, I was curious if they were like the rest of Israel or not. Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 02:43 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 02:36 JimmiC wrote:On December 25 2023 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On December 25 2023 01:39 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 23:37 Nebuchad wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group Thanks for this helpful definition. Maybe you should call the dictionary and tell them to add those other things that you mentioned afterwards in the definition, that way your claim would be correct. Until then, I guess we'll stick with this definition, and under this definition Israel is obviously doing it. Nope sorry try again. They never rendered any area ethnically homogenous. Words have meanings. Sure they did. All of the areas that they settled. Source on the demographics for the settlements? They're exclusively Jewish. Are you actually going to dispute this? I get that some people only use their questions as gotcha's but some of us are just trying to have conversations.
Fair. I have to say though the information is openly available with a simple online search. But I didn't mean to fight.
|
On December 25 2023 05:24 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2023 20:00 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd also like to mention that, while I do believe there was a significant level of expulsion of Jews from Arab nations, the clear majority of their movement was to Israel and their migration was mainly not under force or coercion. Labeling literally the entirety of the Jewish migration out of Arab nations "ethnic cleansing" instead of referring to more specific/isolated cases is practically painting reality as the opposite of what it is. Jews predominantly chose to leave Arab nations in the direct aftermath of Israel's creation. This is not in any capacity comparable to the literal displacement and/or the Apartheid that has been happening in the West bank. You’re painting a different picture than what I have read. Can you clarify which of the points described in the section pertaining to the Middle East you think is inaccurate? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_worldYou didn’t quantify what % was due to collective punishment, but various countries are described in detail and these descriptions paint a very different picture qualitatively. Is it that there is a specific country you’re saying wasn’t mainly from governments targeting Jews as punishment for the formation of Israel? If you read through the section on the Middle East, you’ll see some pretty extreme examples of force and coercion. Since we’ve had a couple examples of different understandings of history, it’s important to make sure we are making the same assumptions. Am I misreading your message, or are you saying the descriptions in that link above are inaccurate?
The majority of Jewish migration was to Israel soon after its conception. The reason to suspect that there was foul play is because many Arab nations lost all of their Jewish population. This strongly suggests that at least a portion of Jewish migrants left due to violence and threats. But there is nothing on record that would make us suspect a much more systemic cause.
|
On December 25 2023 05:57 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 05:24 Mohdoo wrote:On December 24 2023 20:00 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd also like to mention that, while I do believe there was a significant level of expulsion of Jews from Arab nations, the clear majority of their movement was to Israel and their migration was mainly not under force or coercion. Labeling literally the entirety of the Jewish migration out of Arab nations "ethnic cleansing" instead of referring to more specific/isolated cases is practically painting reality as the opposite of what it is. Jews predominantly chose to leave Arab nations in the direct aftermath of Israel's creation. This is not in any capacity comparable to the literal displacement and/or the Apartheid that has been happening in the West bank. You’re painting a different picture than what I have read. Can you clarify which of the points described in the section pertaining to the Middle East you think is inaccurate? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_worldYou didn’t quantify what % was due to collective punishment, but various countries are described in detail and these descriptions paint a very different picture qualitatively. Is it that there is a specific country you’re saying wasn’t mainly from governments targeting Jews as punishment for the formation of Israel? If you read through the section on the Middle East, you’ll see some pretty extreme examples of force and coercion. Since we’ve had a couple examples of different understandings of history, it’s important to make sure we are making the same assumptions. Am I misreading your message, or are you saying the descriptions in that link above are inaccurate? The majority of Jewish migration was to Israel soon after its conception. The reason to suspect that there was foul play is because many Arab nations lost all of their Jewish population. This strongly suggests that at least a portion of Jewish migrants left due to violence and threats. But there is nothing on record that would make us suspect a much more systemic cause.
In the link I included, this is a description of events in Iraq.
In 1948, the country was placed under martial law, and the penalties for Zionism were increased. Courts martial were used to intimidate wealthy Jews, Jews were again dismissed from civil service, quotas were placed on university positions, Jewish businesses were boycotted (E. Black, p. 347) and Shafiq Ades, one of the most important Jewish businessmen in the country (who was non-Zionist) was arrested and publicly hanged for allegedly selling goods to Israel. The Jewish community's general sentiment was that if a man as well connected and powerful as Ades could be eliminated by the state, other Jews would not be protected any longer.[135]
Additionally, like most Arab League states, Iraq forbade any legal emigration of its Jews after the 1948 war on the grounds that they might go to Israel and could strengthen that state. At the same time, increasing government oppression of the Jews fueled by anti-Israeli sentiment together with public expressions of antisemitism created an atmosphere of fear and uncertainty.
Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but wouldn’t this qualify as systemic? These paragraphs describe Jews being targeted in Iraq for being Jewish and they clearly state it is a decision made due to the formation of Israel. Are you saying you don’t think this description is accurate? If you have another source painting a different picture, I’d be curious to read that. But this feels very textbook systemic targeting. Is it that you are saying these things had nothing to do with being Jewish?
|
On December 25 2023 05:57 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 05:24 Mohdoo wrote:On December 24 2023 20:00 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd also like to mention that, while I do believe there was a significant level of expulsion of Jews from Arab nations, the clear majority of their movement was to Israel and their migration was mainly not under force or coercion. Labeling literally the entirety of the Jewish migration out of Arab nations "ethnic cleansing" instead of referring to more specific/isolated cases is practically painting reality as the opposite of what it is. Jews predominantly chose to leave Arab nations in the direct aftermath of Israel's creation. This is not in any capacity comparable to the literal displacement and/or the Apartheid that has been happening in the West bank. You’re painting a different picture than what I have read. Can you clarify which of the points described in the section pertaining to the Middle East you think is inaccurate? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_worldYou didn’t quantify what % was due to collective punishment, but various countries are described in detail and these descriptions paint a very different picture qualitatively. Is it that there is a specific country you’re saying wasn’t mainly from governments targeting Jews as punishment for the formation of Israel? If you read through the section on the Middle East, you’ll see some pretty extreme examples of force and coercion. Since we’ve had a couple examples of different understandings of history, it’s important to make sure we are making the same assumptions. Am I misreading your message, or are you saying the descriptions in that link above are inaccurate? The majority of Jewish migration was to Israel soon after its conception. The reason to suspect that there was foul play is because many Arab nations lost all of their Jewish population. This strongly suggests that at least a portion of Jewish migrants left due to violence and threats. But there is nothing on record that would make us suspect a much more systemic cause.
That is approximately what my wife said when I asked her about Morocco. Insofar as she knows there was never an organised systemic action by the government to remove Jews from the country. Popular sentiment is, and was, against Israel, and that might have caused anti-Semitic sentiment to spill over into discrimination against local Jews. Some may have migrated to Israel because of violence or general hate.
However, she knows there was an organised move from Morocco to Israel: organised by the Zionists, who promised opportunities and a better life for Jews in Israel. Morocco was very poor, so they literally left in busloads.
Morocco may not be representative, as it is NOT the Middle East and the Moroccan monarchy has a strong link to the Jewish community. But it seems like a counterargument against the idea that the entire Arab world was chasing Jews out and into Israel.
|
On December 25 2023 07:12 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 05:57 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 05:24 Mohdoo wrote:On December 24 2023 20:00 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd also like to mention that, while I do believe there was a significant level of expulsion of Jews from Arab nations, the clear majority of their movement was to Israel and their migration was mainly not under force or coercion. Labeling literally the entirety of the Jewish migration out of Arab nations "ethnic cleansing" instead of referring to more specific/isolated cases is practically painting reality as the opposite of what it is. Jews predominantly chose to leave Arab nations in the direct aftermath of Israel's creation. This is not in any capacity comparable to the literal displacement and/or the Apartheid that has been happening in the West bank. You’re painting a different picture than what I have read. Can you clarify which of the points described in the section pertaining to the Middle East you think is inaccurate? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_worldYou didn’t quantify what % was due to collective punishment, but various countries are described in detail and these descriptions paint a very different picture qualitatively. Is it that there is a specific country you’re saying wasn’t mainly from governments targeting Jews as punishment for the formation of Israel? If you read through the section on the Middle East, you’ll see some pretty extreme examples of force and coercion. Since we’ve had a couple examples of different understandings of history, it’s important to make sure we are making the same assumptions. Am I misreading your message, or are you saying the descriptions in that link above are inaccurate? The majority of Jewish migration was to Israel soon after its conception. The reason to suspect that there was foul play is because many Arab nations lost all of their Jewish population. This strongly suggests that at least a portion of Jewish migrants left due to violence and threats. But there is nothing on record that would make us suspect a much more systemic cause. That is approximately what my wife said when I asked her about Morocco. Insofar as she knows there was never an organised systemic action by the government to remove Jews from the country. Popular sentiment is, and was, against Israel, and that might have caused anti-Semitic sentiment to spill over into discrimination against local Jews. Some may have migrated to Israel because of violence or general hate. However, she knows there was an organised move from Morocco to Israel: organised by the Zionists, who promised opportunities and a better life for Jews in Israel. Morocco was very poor, so they literally left in busloads. Morocco may not be representative, as it is NOT the Middle East and the Moroccan monarchy has a strong link to the Jewish community. But it seems like a counterargument against the idea that the entire Arab world was chasing Jews out and into Israel.
You're on the right track yeah, according to the wiki the Maghreb in general had little in the way of government persecution, but that doesn't translate to every arab country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
|
On December 25 2023 06:33 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 05:57 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 05:24 Mohdoo wrote:On December 24 2023 20:00 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd also like to mention that, while I do believe there was a significant level of expulsion of Jews from Arab nations, the clear majority of their movement was to Israel and their migration was mainly not under force or coercion. Labeling literally the entirety of the Jewish migration out of Arab nations "ethnic cleansing" instead of referring to more specific/isolated cases is practically painting reality as the opposite of what it is. Jews predominantly chose to leave Arab nations in the direct aftermath of Israel's creation. This is not in any capacity comparable to the literal displacement and/or the Apartheid that has been happening in the West bank. You’re painting a different picture than what I have read. Can you clarify which of the points described in the section pertaining to the Middle East you think is inaccurate? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_worldYou didn’t quantify what % was due to collective punishment, but various countries are described in detail and these descriptions paint a very different picture qualitatively. Is it that there is a specific country you’re saying wasn’t mainly from governments targeting Jews as punishment for the formation of Israel? If you read through the section on the Middle East, you’ll see some pretty extreme examples of force and coercion. Since we’ve had a couple examples of different understandings of history, it’s important to make sure we are making the same assumptions. Am I misreading your message, or are you saying the descriptions in that link above are inaccurate? The majority of Jewish migration was to Israel soon after its conception. The reason to suspect that there was foul play is because many Arab nations lost all of their Jewish population. This strongly suggests that at least a portion of Jewish migrants left due to violence and threats. But there is nothing on record that would make us suspect a much more systemic cause. In the link I included, this is a description of events in Iraq. Show nested quote +In 1948, the country was placed under martial law, and the penalties for Zionism were increased. Courts martial were used to intimidate wealthy Jews, Jews were again dismissed from civil service, quotas were placed on university positions, Jewish businesses were boycotted (E. Black, p. 347) and Shafiq Ades, one of the most important Jewish businessmen in the country (who was non-Zionist) was arrested and publicly hanged for allegedly selling goods to Israel. The Jewish community's general sentiment was that if a man as well connected and powerful as Ades could be eliminated by the state, other Jews would not be protected any longer.[135]
Additionally, like most Arab League states, Iraq forbade any legal emigration of its Jews after the 1948 war on the grounds that they might go to Israel and could strengthen that state. At the same time, increasing government oppression of the Jews fueled by anti-Israeli sentiment together with public expressions of antisemitism created an atmosphere of fear and uncertainty. Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but wouldn’t this qualify as systemic? These paragraphs describe Jews being targeted in Iraq for being Jewish and they clearly state it is a decision made due to the formation of Israel. Are you saying you don’t think this description is accurate? If you have another source painting a different picture, I’d be curious to read that. But this feels very textbook systemic targeting. Is it that you are saying these things had nothing to do with being Jewish?
There's a lot more to it than just discrimination in Arab nations. There were powerful incentives by the State of Israel to bring in Jews. The point I'm trying to make is that, by the by, discrimination, violence and threats are further down the list of incentives. While it is true that discrimination took place, this is not among the first reasons for the mass exodus.
If you look at other countries where minorities were also being discriminated against, this rarely resulted in those minorites simply leaving their countries in droves. Among the most well-known cases is how black people were treated in America, and yet the black population largely stayed and accepted that life was just going to be harder for them. Similarly, Jews in Nazi Germany initially stuck around. That was despite them being politically persecuted. When news came out of the death camps, they fled as quickly as they could.
You may be able to see how it's not as simple as just linking discrimination to mass migration.
|
On December 25 2023 07:12 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 05:57 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 05:24 Mohdoo wrote:On December 24 2023 20:00 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd also like to mention that, while I do believe there was a significant level of expulsion of Jews from Arab nations, the clear majority of their movement was to Israel and their migration was mainly not under force or coercion. Labeling literally the entirety of the Jewish migration out of Arab nations "ethnic cleansing" instead of referring to more specific/isolated cases is practically painting reality as the opposite of what it is. Jews predominantly chose to leave Arab nations in the direct aftermath of Israel's creation. This is not in any capacity comparable to the literal displacement and/or the Apartheid that has been happening in the West bank. You’re painting a different picture than what I have read. Can you clarify which of the points described in the section pertaining to the Middle East you think is inaccurate? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_worldYou didn’t quantify what % was due to collective punishment, but various countries are described in detail and these descriptions paint a very different picture qualitatively. Is it that there is a specific country you’re saying wasn’t mainly from governments targeting Jews as punishment for the formation of Israel? If you read through the section on the Middle East, you’ll see some pretty extreme examples of force and coercion. Since we’ve had a couple examples of different understandings of history, it’s important to make sure we are making the same assumptions. Am I misreading your message, or are you saying the descriptions in that link above are inaccurate? The majority of Jewish migration was to Israel soon after its conception. The reason to suspect that there was foul play is because many Arab nations lost all of their Jewish population. This strongly suggests that at least a portion of Jewish migrants left due to violence and threats. But there is nothing on record that would make us suspect a much more systemic cause. That is approximately what my wife said when I asked her about Morocco. Insofar as she knows there was never an organised systemic action by the government to remove Jews from the country. Popular sentiment is, and was, against Israel, and that might have caused anti-Semitic sentiment to spill over into discrimination against local Jews. Some may have migrated to Israel because of violence or general hate. However, she knows there was an organised move from Morocco to Israel: organised by the Zionists, who promised opportunities and a better life for Jews in Israel. Morocco was very poor, so they literally left in busloads. Morocco may not be representative, as it is NOT the Middle East and the Moroccan monarchy has a strong link to the Jewish community. But it seems like a counterargument against the idea that the entire Arab world was chasing Jews out and into Israel.
You're right that there is variation within the Arab world regarding chasing Jews out. And in many cases, they weren't being chased out and instead they were being prevented from emigrating while still being the targets of extreme prejudice. They didn't want them to move to Israel, but they also wanted to continue harming them, so despite all of the hateful targeting, they weren't allowed to leave in many cases.
Since I know it can be annoying to need to sift through some giant Wikipedia article, I have snipped out some notable bits and done my best so separate them out into concise pieces for the sake of readability. I'm not asking you to read everything and give me a book report on it, but I do encourage you to at least read some of these. I bolded some stuff that I think is particularly notable, so if you decide you aren't gonna read much of this, please at least read the bolded stuff.
There has been a lot of skepticism around here when I have eluded to these events. It is not fair for me to ask people to just take my word for it, so I have done my best to just include the notable bits rather than asking people to read 300 pages of Wikipedia.
Systemic action in Afghanistan:
The Afghan Jewish community declined from about 40,000 in the early 20th century to 5,000 by 1934 due to persecution. Many Afghan Jews fled to Persia, although some came to Palestine.
In 1933, following the assassination of Mohammed Nadir Shah, King of Afghanistan, Afghan Jews were declared non-citizens and many Jews in Afghanistan were expelled from their homes and robbed of their property. Jews continued living in major cities such as Kabul and Herat, under restrictions on work and trade. In 1935, the Jewish Telegraph Agency reported that "Ghetto rules" had been imposed on Afghan Jews, requiring them to wear particular clothes, that Jewish women stay out of markets, that no Jews live within certain distances of mosques and that Jews did not ride horses.
From 1935 to 1941, under Prime Minister Mohammad Hashim Khan (uncle of the King) Germany was the most influential country in Afghanistan. The Nazis regarded the Afghans (like the Iranians) as Aryans. In 1938, it was reported that Jews were only allowed to work as shoe-polishers.
Contact with Afghanistan was difficult at this time and with many Jews facing persecution around the world, reports reached the outside world after a delay and were rarely researched thoroughly. Jews were allowed to emigrate in 1951 and most moved to Israel and the United States. By 1969, some 300 remained, and most of these left after the Soviet invasion of 1979, leaving 10 Afghan Jews in 1996, most of them in Kabul. As of 2007, more than 10,000 Jews of Afghan descent were living in Israel and over 200 families of Afghan Jews lived in New York City.
Systemic action in Iraq:
In 1948, the country was placed under martial law, and the penalties for Zionism were increased. Courts martial were used to intimidate wealthy Jews, Jews were again dismissed from civil service, quotas were placed on university positions, Jewish businesses were boycotted (E. Black, p. 347) and Shafiq Ades, one of the most important Jewish businessmen in the country (who was non-Zionist) was arrested and publicly hanged for allegedly selling goods to Israel. The Jewish community's general sentiment was that if a man as well connected and powerful as Ades could be eliminated by the state, other Jews would not be protected any longer.[135]
Additionally, like most Arab League states, Iraq forbade any legal emigration of its Jews after the 1948 war on the grounds that they might go to Israel and could strengthen that state. At the same time, increasing government oppression of the Jews fueled by anti-Israeli sentiment together with public expressions of antisemitism created an atmosphere of fear and uncertainty.
Systemic action in Egypt:
Please see the bolded part below. This is a wildly terrible example of collective punishment against Jews.
The Egyptian Prime Minister Mahmoud an-Nukrashi Pasha told the British ambassador: "All Jews were potential Zionists [and] ... anyhow all Zionists were Communists." On 24 November 1947, the head of the Egyptian delegation to the United Nations General Assembly, Muhammad Hussein Heykal Pasha, said, "the lives of 1,000,000 Jews in Moslem countries would be jeopardized by the establishment of a Jewish state." On 24 November 1947, Dr Heykal Pasha said: "if the U.N decide to amputate a part of Palestine in order to establish a Jewish state, ... Jewish blood will necessarily be shed elsewhere in the Arab world ... to place in certain and serious danger a million Jews." Mahmud Bey Fawzi (Egypt) said: "Imposed partition was sure to result in bloodshed in Palestine and in the rest of the Arab world."
The exodus of the foreign mutamassirun ("Egyptianized") community, which included a significant number of Jews, began following the First World War, and by the end of the 1960s the entire mutamassirun was effectively eliminated. According to Andrew Gorman, this was primarily a result of the "decolonization process and the rise of Egyptian nationalism".
The exodus of Egyptian Jews was impacted by the 1945 Anti-Jewish Riots in Egypt, though such emigration was not significant as the government stamped the violence out and the Egyptian Jewish community leaders were supportive of King Farouk. In 1948, approximately 75,000 Jews lived in Egypt. Around 20,000 Jews left Egypt during 1948–49 following the events of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War (including the 1948 Cairo bombings). A further 5,000 left between 1952 and 1956, in the wake of the Egyptian Revolution of 1952 and later the false flag Lavon Affair. The Israeli invasion as part of the Suez Crisis caused a significant upsurge in emigration, with 14,000 Jews leaving in less than six months between November 1956 and March 1957, and 19,000 further emigrating over the next decade.
Systemic action in Syria:
In 1947, rioters in Aleppo burned the city's Jewish quarter and killed 75 people.As a result, nearly half of the Jewish population of Aleppo opted to leave the city,[5] initially to neighbouring Lebanon.
In 1948, there were approximately 30,000 Jews in Syria. In 1949, following defeat in the Arab–Israeli War, the CIA-backed March 1949 Syrian coup d'état installed Husni al-Za'im as the President of Syria. Za'im permitted the emigration of large numbers of Syrian Jews, and 5,000 left to Israel.
The subsequent Syrian governments placed severe restrictions on the Jewish community, including barring emigration. In 1948, the government banned the sale of Jewish property and in 1953 all Jewish bank accounts were frozen. The Syrian secret police closely monitored the Jewish community. Over the following years, many Jews managed to escape, and the work of supporters, particularly Judy Feld Carr, in smuggling Jews out of Syria, and bringing their plight to the attention of the world, raised awareness of their situation.
Although the Syrian government attempted to stop Syrian Jews from exporting their assets, the American consulate in Damascus noted in 1950 that "the majority of Syrian Jews have managed to dispose of their property and to emigrate to Lebanon, Italy, and Israel". In November 1954, the Syrian government temporarily lifted its ban on Jewish emigration. The various restrictions that the Syrian government placed on the Jewish population were severe. Jews were legally barred from working for the government or for banks, obtaining driver's licenses, having telephones in their homes or business premises, or purchasing property.
In March 1964, the Syrian government issued a decree prohibiting Jews from traveling more than three miles from the limits of their hometowns. In 1967, in the aftermath of the Six-Day War, antisemitic riots broke out in Damascus and Aleppo. Jews were allowed to leave their homes only for few hours daily. Many Jews found it impossible to pursue their business ventures because the larger community was boycotting their products. In 1970, Israel launched Operation Blanket, a covert military and intelligence operation to evacuate Syrian Jews, managing to bring a few dozen young Jews to Israel.
Since some people had expressed some level of uncertainty, I wanted to take the time to just throw it all in 1 post. When all of the information is readily available, we have no incentive to be like "yeah, who knows". If anyone thinks anything above is fake news or something, please let me know, as I want to make sure I am at least working with a correct version of history.
|
Netanyahu/Israel PR towards Christians on Christmas Eve, as news spreads of the IDF bombing a Orthodox Christian Church, as well as having killed two Christians by sniper fire that were sheltering inside a Gaza Church.
|
|
|
On December 25 2023 08:36 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 07:12 Acrofales wrote:On December 25 2023 05:57 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 05:24 Mohdoo wrote:On December 24 2023 20:00 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd also like to mention that, while I do believe there was a significant level of expulsion of Jews from Arab nations, the clear majority of their movement was to Israel and their migration was mainly not under force or coercion. Labeling literally the entirety of the Jewish migration out of Arab nations "ethnic cleansing" instead of referring to more specific/isolated cases is practically painting reality as the opposite of what it is. Jews predominantly chose to leave Arab nations in the direct aftermath of Israel's creation. This is not in any capacity comparable to the literal displacement and/or the Apartheid that has been happening in the West bank. You’re painting a different picture than what I have read. Can you clarify which of the points described in the section pertaining to the Middle East you think is inaccurate? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_worldYou didn’t quantify what % was due to collective punishment, but various countries are described in detail and these descriptions paint a very different picture qualitatively. Is it that there is a specific country you’re saying wasn’t mainly from governments targeting Jews as punishment for the formation of Israel? If you read through the section on the Middle East, you’ll see some pretty extreme examples of force and coercion. Since we’ve had a couple examples of different understandings of history, it’s important to make sure we are making the same assumptions. Am I misreading your message, or are you saying the descriptions in that link above are inaccurate? The majority of Jewish migration was to Israel soon after its conception. The reason to suspect that there was foul play is because many Arab nations lost all of their Jewish population. This strongly suggests that at least a portion of Jewish migrants left due to violence and threats. But there is nothing on record that would make us suspect a much more systemic cause. That is approximately what my wife said when I asked her about Morocco. Insofar as she knows there was never an organised systemic action by the government to remove Jews from the country. Popular sentiment is, and was, against Israel, and that might have caused anti-Semitic sentiment to spill over into discrimination against local Jews. Some may have migrated to Israel because of violence or general hate. However, she knows there was an organised move from Morocco to Israel: organised by the Zionists, who promised opportunities and a better life for Jews in Israel. Morocco was very poor, so they literally left in busloads. Morocco may not be representative, as it is NOT the Middle East and the Moroccan monarchy has a strong link to the Jewish community. But it seems like a counterargument against the idea that the entire Arab world was chasing Jews out and into Israel. You're right that there is variation within the Arab world regarding chasing Jews out. And in many cases, they weren't being chased out and instead they were being prevented from emigrating while still being the targets of extreme prejudice. They didn't want them to move to Israel, but they also wanted to continue harming them, so despite all of the hateful targeting, they weren't allowed to leave in many cases. Since I know it can be annoying to need to sift through some giant Wikipedia article, I have snipped out some notable bits and done my best so separate them out into concise pieces for the sake of readability. I'm not asking you to read everything and give me a book report on it, but I do encourage you to at least read some of these. I bolded some stuff that I think is particularly notable, so if you decide you aren't gonna read much of this, please at least read the bolded stuff. There has been a lot of skepticism around here when I have eluded to these events. It is not fair for me to ask people to just take my word for it, so I have done my best to just include the notable bits rather than asking people to read 300 pages of Wikipedia. Systemic action in Afghanistan:Show nested quote +The Afghan Jewish community declined from about 40,000 in the early 20th century to 5,000 by 1934 due to persecution. Many Afghan Jews fled to Persia, although some came to Palestine.
In 1933, following the assassination of Mohammed Nadir Shah, King of Afghanistan, Afghan Jews were declared non-citizens and many Jews in Afghanistan were expelled from their homes and robbed of their property. Jews continued living in major cities such as Kabul and Herat, under restrictions on work and trade. In 1935, the Jewish Telegraph Agency reported that "Ghetto rules" had been imposed on Afghan Jews, requiring them to wear particular clothes, that Jewish women stay out of markets, that no Jews live within certain distances of mosques and that Jews did not ride horses.
From 1935 to 1941, under Prime Minister Mohammad Hashim Khan (uncle of the King) Germany was the most influential country in Afghanistan. The Nazis regarded the Afghans (like the Iranians) as Aryans. In 1938, it was reported that Jews were only allowed to work as shoe-polishers.
Contact with Afghanistan was difficult at this time and with many Jews facing persecution around the world, reports reached the outside world after a delay and were rarely researched thoroughly. Jews were allowed to emigrate in 1951 and most moved to Israel and the United States. By 1969, some 300 remained, and most of these left after the Soviet invasion of 1979, leaving 10 Afghan Jews in 1996, most of them in Kabul. As of 2007, more than 10,000 Jews of Afghan descent were living in Israel and over 200 families of Afghan Jews lived in New York City. Systemic action in Iraq:Show nested quote +In 1948, the country was placed under martial law, and the penalties for Zionism were increased. Courts martial were used to intimidate wealthy Jews, Jews were again dismissed from civil service, quotas were placed on university positions, Jewish businesses were boycotted (E. Black, p. 347) and Shafiq Ades, one of the most important Jewish businessmen in the country (who was non-Zionist) was arrested and publicly hanged for allegedly selling goods to Israel. The Jewish community's general sentiment was that if a man as well connected and powerful as Ades could be eliminated by the state, other Jews would not be protected any longer.[135]
Additionally, like most Arab League states, Iraq forbade any legal emigration of its Jews after the 1948 war on the grounds that they might go to Israel and could strengthen that state. At the same time, increasing government oppression of the Jews fueled by anti-Israeli sentiment together with public expressions of antisemitism created an atmosphere of fear and uncertainty.
Systemic action in Egypt:Please see the bolded part below. This is a wildly terrible example of collective punishment against Jews. Show nested quote +The Egyptian Prime Minister Mahmoud an-Nukrashi Pasha told the British ambassador: "All Jews were potential Zionists [and] ... anyhow all Zionists were Communists." On 24 November 1947, the head of the Egyptian delegation to the United Nations General Assembly, Muhammad Hussein Heykal Pasha, said, "the lives of 1,000,000 Jews in Moslem countries would be jeopardized by the establishment of a Jewish state." On 24 November 1947, Dr Heykal Pasha said: "if the U.N decide to amputate a part of Palestine in order to establish a Jewish state, ... Jewish blood will necessarily be shed elsewhere in the Arab world ... to place in certain and serious danger a million Jews." Mahmud Bey Fawzi (Egypt) said: "Imposed partition was sure to result in bloodshed in Palestine and in the rest of the Arab world."
The exodus of the foreign mutamassirun ("Egyptianized") community, which included a significant number of Jews, began following the First World War, and by the end of the 1960s the entire mutamassirun was effectively eliminated. According to Andrew Gorman, this was primarily a result of the "decolonization process and the rise of Egyptian nationalism".
The exodus of Egyptian Jews was impacted by the 1945 Anti-Jewish Riots in Egypt, though such emigration was not significant as the government stamped the violence out and the Egyptian Jewish community leaders were supportive of King Farouk. In 1948, approximately 75,000 Jews lived in Egypt. Around 20,000 Jews left Egypt during 1948–49 following the events of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War (including the 1948 Cairo bombings). A further 5,000 left between 1952 and 1956, in the wake of the Egyptian Revolution of 1952 and later the false flag Lavon Affair. The Israeli invasion as part of the Suez Crisis caused a significant upsurge in emigration, with 14,000 Jews leaving in less than six months between November 1956 and March 1957, and 19,000 further emigrating over the next decade.
Systemic action in Syria:Show nested quote +In 1947, rioters in Aleppo burned the city's Jewish quarter and killed 75 people.As a result, nearly half of the Jewish population of Aleppo opted to leave the city,[5] initially to neighbouring Lebanon.
In 1948, there were approximately 30,000 Jews in Syria. In 1949, following defeat in the Arab–Israeli War, the CIA-backed March 1949 Syrian coup d'état installed Husni al-Za'im as the President of Syria. Za'im permitted the emigration of large numbers of Syrian Jews, and 5,000 left to Israel.
The subsequent Syrian governments placed severe restrictions on the Jewish community, including barring emigration. In 1948, the government banned the sale of Jewish property and in 1953 all Jewish bank accounts were frozen. The Syrian secret police closely monitored the Jewish community. Over the following years, many Jews managed to escape, and the work of supporters, particularly Judy Feld Carr, in smuggling Jews out of Syria, and bringing their plight to the attention of the world, raised awareness of their situation.
Although the Syrian government attempted to stop Syrian Jews from exporting their assets, the American consulate in Damascus noted in 1950 that "the majority of Syrian Jews have managed to dispose of their property and to emigrate to Lebanon, Italy, and Israel". In November 1954, the Syrian government temporarily lifted its ban on Jewish emigration. The various restrictions that the Syrian government placed on the Jewish population were severe. Jews were legally barred from working for the government or for banks, obtaining driver's licenses, having telephones in their homes or business premises, or purchasing property.
In March 1964, the Syrian government issued a decree prohibiting Jews from traveling more than three miles from the limits of their hometowns. In 1967, in the aftermath of the Six-Day War, antisemitic riots broke out in Damascus and Aleppo. Jews were allowed to leave their homes only for few hours daily. Many Jews found it impossible to pursue their business ventures because the larger community was boycotting their products. In 1970, Israel launched Operation Blanket, a covert military and intelligence operation to evacuate Syrian Jews, managing to bring a few dozen young Jews to Israel. Since some people had expressed some level of uncertainty, I wanted to take the time to just throw it all in 1 post. When all of the information is readily available, we have no incentive to be like "yeah, who knows". If anyone thinks anything above is fake news or something, please let me know, as I want to make sure I am at least working with a correct version of history.
It's certainly not fake news. I've read about some of these cases and I myself have also argued in this same thread long ago that persecution of Jewish people is a significant driving factor in the ME tensions with Israel.
That is different from saying that the mass exodus was mainly due to political persecution or otherwise. It's quite difficult to put a number to it. The fact that the State of Israel was conceived before tensions rose against Jews in Arab nations cannot be ignored. The question is how did the existence of the State of Israel affect Jewish migration?
To tackle this question we can look at other countries from which Jews emigrated after 1948 and until 1951. A clear trend emerges. Many or most left Poland, Bulgaria, Turkey, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Germany, Austria, USSR, Yugoslavia and so on. Was the incentive to reside in Israel really this strong? Apparently yes. Take a look at the numbers. Probably about half of Polish Jews left. In other countries like Bulgaria it was perhaps more than 85% that left.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-mass-migration-of-the-1950s/
|
|
|
On December 25 2023 08:36 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 07:12 Acrofales wrote:On December 25 2023 05:57 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 05:24 Mohdoo wrote:On December 24 2023 20:00 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd also like to mention that, while I do believe there was a significant level of expulsion of Jews from Arab nations, the clear majority of their movement was to Israel and their migration was mainly not under force or coercion. Labeling literally the entirety of the Jewish migration out of Arab nations "ethnic cleansing" instead of referring to more specific/isolated cases is practically painting reality as the opposite of what it is. Jews predominantly chose to leave Arab nations in the direct aftermath of Israel's creation. This is not in any capacity comparable to the literal displacement and/or the Apartheid that has been happening in the West bank. You’re painting a different picture than what I have read. Can you clarify which of the points described in the section pertaining to the Middle East you think is inaccurate? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_worldYou didn’t quantify what % was due to collective punishment, but various countries are described in detail and these descriptions paint a very different picture qualitatively. Is it that there is a specific country you’re saying wasn’t mainly from governments targeting Jews as punishment for the formation of Israel? If you read through the section on the Middle East, you’ll see some pretty extreme examples of force and coercion. Since we’ve had a couple examples of different understandings of history, it’s important to make sure we are making the same assumptions. Am I misreading your message, or are you saying the descriptions in that link above are inaccurate? The majority of Jewish migration was to Israel soon after its conception. The reason to suspect that there was foul play is because many Arab nations lost all of their Jewish population. This strongly suggests that at least a portion of Jewish migrants left due to violence and threats. But there is nothing on record that would make us suspect a much more systemic cause. That is approximately what my wife said when I asked her about Morocco. Insofar as she knows there was never an organised systemic action by the government to remove Jews from the country. Popular sentiment is, and was, against Israel, and that might have caused anti-Semitic sentiment to spill over into discrimination against local Jews. Some may have migrated to Israel because of violence or general hate. However, she knows there was an organised move from Morocco to Israel: organised by the Zionists, who promised opportunities and a better life for Jews in Israel. Morocco was very poor, so they literally left in busloads. Morocco may not be representative, as it is NOT the Middle East and the Moroccan monarchy has a strong link to the Jewish community. But it seems like a counterargument against the idea that the entire Arab world was chasing Jews out and into Israel. You're right that there is variation within the Arab world regarding chasing Jews out. And in many cases, they weren't being chased out and instead they were being prevented from emigrating while still being the targets of extreme prejudice. They didn't want them to move to Israel, but they also wanted to continue harming them, so despite all of the hateful targeting, they weren't allowed to leave in many cases. Since I know it can be annoying to need to sift through some giant Wikipedia article, I have snipped out some notable bits and done my best so separate them out into concise pieces for the sake of readability. I'm not asking you to read everything and give me a book report on it, but I do encourage you to at least read some of these. I bolded some stuff that I think is particularly notable, so if you decide you aren't gonna read much of this, please at least read the bolded stuff. There has been a lot of skepticism around here when I have eluded to these events. It is not fair for me to ask people to just take my word for it, so I have done my best to just include the notable bits rather than asking people to read 300 pages of Wikipedia. Systemic action in Afghanistan:Show nested quote +The Afghan Jewish community declined from about 40,000 in the early 20th century to 5,000 by 1934 due to persecution. Many Afghan Jews fled to Persia, although some came to Palestine.
In 1933, following the assassination of Mohammed Nadir Shah, King of Afghanistan, Afghan Jews were declared non-citizens and many Jews in Afghanistan were expelled from their homes and robbed of their property. Jews continued living in major cities such as Kabul and Herat, under restrictions on work and trade. In 1935, the Jewish Telegraph Agency reported that "Ghetto rules" had been imposed on Afghan Jews, requiring them to wear particular clothes, that Jewish women stay out of markets, that no Jews live within certain distances of mosques and that Jews did not ride horses.
From 1935 to 1941, under Prime Minister Mohammad Hashim Khan (uncle of the King) Germany was the most influential country in Afghanistan. The Nazis regarded the Afghans (like the Iranians) as Aryans. In 1938, it was reported that Jews were only allowed to work as shoe-polishers.
Contact with Afghanistan was difficult at this time and with many Jews facing persecution around the world, reports reached the outside world after a delay and were rarely researched thoroughly. Jews were allowed to emigrate in 1951 and most moved to Israel and the United States. By 1969, some 300 remained, and most of these left after the Soviet invasion of 1979, leaving 10 Afghan Jews in 1996, most of them in Kabul. As of 2007, more than 10,000 Jews of Afghan descent were living in Israel and over 200 families of Afghan Jews lived in New York City. Systemic action in Iraq:Show nested quote +In 1948, the country was placed under martial law, and the penalties for Zionism were increased. Courts martial were used to intimidate wealthy Jews, Jews were again dismissed from civil service, quotas were placed on university positions, Jewish businesses were boycotted (E. Black, p. 347) and Shafiq Ades, one of the most important Jewish businessmen in the country (who was non-Zionist) was arrested and publicly hanged for allegedly selling goods to Israel. The Jewish community's general sentiment was that if a man as well connected and powerful as Ades could be eliminated by the state, other Jews would not be protected any longer.[135]
Additionally, like most Arab League states, Iraq forbade any legal emigration of its Jews after the 1948 war on the grounds that they might go to Israel and could strengthen that state. At the same time, increasing government oppression of the Jews fueled by anti-Israeli sentiment together with public expressions of antisemitism created an atmosphere of fear and uncertainty.
Systemic action in Egypt:Please see the bolded part below. This is a wildly terrible example of collective punishment against Jews. Show nested quote +The Egyptian Prime Minister Mahmoud an-Nukrashi Pasha told the British ambassador: "All Jews were potential Zionists [and] ... anyhow all Zionists were Communists." On 24 November 1947, the head of the Egyptian delegation to the United Nations General Assembly, Muhammad Hussein Heykal Pasha, said, "the lives of 1,000,000 Jews in Moslem countries would be jeopardized by the establishment of a Jewish state." On 24 November 1947, Dr Heykal Pasha said: "if the U.N decide to amputate a part of Palestine in order to establish a Jewish state, ... Jewish blood will necessarily be shed elsewhere in the Arab world ... to place in certain and serious danger a million Jews." Mahmud Bey Fawzi (Egypt) said: "Imposed partition was sure to result in bloodshed in Palestine and in the rest of the Arab world."
The exodus of the foreign mutamassirun ("Egyptianized") community, which included a significant number of Jews, began following the First World War, and by the end of the 1960s the entire mutamassirun was effectively eliminated. According to Andrew Gorman, this was primarily a result of the "decolonization process and the rise of Egyptian nationalism".
The exodus of Egyptian Jews was impacted by the 1945 Anti-Jewish Riots in Egypt, though such emigration was not significant as the government stamped the violence out and the Egyptian Jewish community leaders were supportive of King Farouk. In 1948, approximately 75,000 Jews lived in Egypt. Around 20,000 Jews left Egypt during 1948–49 following the events of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War (including the 1948 Cairo bombings). A further 5,000 left between 1952 and 1956, in the wake of the Egyptian Revolution of 1952 and later the false flag Lavon Affair. The Israeli invasion as part of the Suez Crisis caused a significant upsurge in emigration, with 14,000 Jews leaving in less than six months between November 1956 and March 1957, and 19,000 further emigrating over the next decade.
Systemic action in Syria:Show nested quote +In 1947, rioters in Aleppo burned the city's Jewish quarter and killed 75 people.As a result, nearly half of the Jewish population of Aleppo opted to leave the city,[5] initially to neighbouring Lebanon.
In 1948, there were approximately 30,000 Jews in Syria. In 1949, following defeat in the Arab–Israeli War, the CIA-backed March 1949 Syrian coup d'état installed Husni al-Za'im as the President of Syria. Za'im permitted the emigration of large numbers of Syrian Jews, and 5,000 left to Israel.
The subsequent Syrian governments placed severe restrictions on the Jewish community, including barring emigration. In 1948, the government banned the sale of Jewish property and in 1953 all Jewish bank accounts were frozen. The Syrian secret police closely monitored the Jewish community. Over the following years, many Jews managed to escape, and the work of supporters, particularly Judy Feld Carr, in smuggling Jews out of Syria, and bringing their plight to the attention of the world, raised awareness of their situation.
Although the Syrian government attempted to stop Syrian Jews from exporting their assets, the American consulate in Damascus noted in 1950 that "the majority of Syrian Jews have managed to dispose of their property and to emigrate to Lebanon, Italy, and Israel". In November 1954, the Syrian government temporarily lifted its ban on Jewish emigration. The various restrictions that the Syrian government placed on the Jewish population were severe. Jews were legally barred from working for the government or for banks, obtaining driver's licenses, having telephones in their homes or business premises, or purchasing property.
In March 1964, the Syrian government issued a decree prohibiting Jews from traveling more than three miles from the limits of their hometowns. In 1967, in the aftermath of the Six-Day War, antisemitic riots broke out in Damascus and Aleppo. Jews were allowed to leave their homes only for few hours daily. Many Jews found it impossible to pursue their business ventures because the larger community was boycotting their products. In 1970, Israel launched Operation Blanket, a covert military and intelligence operation to evacuate Syrian Jews, managing to bring a few dozen young Jews to Israel. Since some people had expressed some level of uncertainty, I wanted to take the time to just throw it all in 1 post. When all of the information is readily available, we have no incentive to be like "yeah, who knows". If anyone thinks anything above is fake news or something, please let me know, as I want to make sure I am at least working with a correct version of history.
Very thorough, now please do Palestine with similar dedication. Then would you please indulge me by explaining what your examples have to do with current situation in Palestine? Is it, some Muslims there did something bad, so lets punish Muslims here for it?
Truth is, examples you mentioned were atrocious and shouldn't happened (I don't think anyone on this forum would disagree with that), but what is also a truth, is that what Israel is doing in Palestine is also atrocious and shouldn't happen. I am not really sure how can you condemn one and justify another.
|
On December 25 2023 12:09 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 08:36 Mohdoo wrote:On December 25 2023 07:12 Acrofales wrote:On December 25 2023 05:57 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 05:24 Mohdoo wrote:On December 24 2023 20:00 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd also like to mention that, while I do believe there was a significant level of expulsion of Jews from Arab nations, the clear majority of their movement was to Israel and their migration was mainly not under force or coercion. Labeling literally the entirety of the Jewish migration out of Arab nations "ethnic cleansing" instead of referring to more specific/isolated cases is practically painting reality as the opposite of what it is. Jews predominantly chose to leave Arab nations in the direct aftermath of Israel's creation. This is not in any capacity comparable to the literal displacement and/or the Apartheid that has been happening in the West bank. You’re painting a different picture than what I have read. Can you clarify which of the points described in the section pertaining to the Middle East you think is inaccurate? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_worldYou didn’t quantify what % was due to collective punishment, but various countries are described in detail and these descriptions paint a very different picture qualitatively. Is it that there is a specific country you’re saying wasn’t mainly from governments targeting Jews as punishment for the formation of Israel? If you read through the section on the Middle East, you’ll see some pretty extreme examples of force and coercion. Since we’ve had a couple examples of different understandings of history, it’s important to make sure we are making the same assumptions. Am I misreading your message, or are you saying the descriptions in that link above are inaccurate? The majority of Jewish migration was to Israel soon after its conception. The reason to suspect that there was foul play is because many Arab nations lost all of their Jewish population. This strongly suggests that at least a portion of Jewish migrants left due to violence and threats. But there is nothing on record that would make us suspect a much more systemic cause. That is approximately what my wife said when I asked her about Morocco. Insofar as she knows there was never an organised systemic action by the government to remove Jews from the country. Popular sentiment is, and was, against Israel, and that might have caused anti-Semitic sentiment to spill over into discrimination against local Jews. Some may have migrated to Israel because of violence or general hate. However, she knows there was an organised move from Morocco to Israel: organised by the Zionists, who promised opportunities and a better life for Jews in Israel. Morocco was very poor, so they literally left in busloads. Morocco may not be representative, as it is NOT the Middle East and the Moroccan monarchy has a strong link to the Jewish community. But it seems like a counterargument against the idea that the entire Arab world was chasing Jews out and into Israel. You're right that there is variation within the Arab world regarding chasing Jews out. And in many cases, they weren't being chased out and instead they were being prevented from emigrating while still being the targets of extreme prejudice. They didn't want them to move to Israel, but they also wanted to continue harming them, so despite all of the hateful targeting, they weren't allowed to leave in many cases. Since I know it can be annoying to need to sift through some giant Wikipedia article, I have snipped out some notable bits and done my best so separate them out into concise pieces for the sake of readability. I'm not asking you to read everything and give me a book report on it, but I do encourage you to at least read some of these. I bolded some stuff that I think is particularly notable, so if you decide you aren't gonna read much of this, please at least read the bolded stuff. There has been a lot of skepticism around here when I have eluded to these events. It is not fair for me to ask people to just take my word for it, so I have done my best to just include the notable bits rather than asking people to read 300 pages of Wikipedia. Systemic action in Afghanistan:The Afghan Jewish community declined from about 40,000 in the early 20th century to 5,000 by 1934 due to persecution. Many Afghan Jews fled to Persia, although some came to Palestine.
In 1933, following the assassination of Mohammed Nadir Shah, King of Afghanistan, Afghan Jews were declared non-citizens and many Jews in Afghanistan were expelled from their homes and robbed of their property. Jews continued living in major cities such as Kabul and Herat, under restrictions on work and trade. In 1935, the Jewish Telegraph Agency reported that "Ghetto rules" had been imposed on Afghan Jews, requiring them to wear particular clothes, that Jewish women stay out of markets, that no Jews live within certain distances of mosques and that Jews did not ride horses.
From 1935 to 1941, under Prime Minister Mohammad Hashim Khan (uncle of the King) Germany was the most influential country in Afghanistan. The Nazis regarded the Afghans (like the Iranians) as Aryans. In 1938, it was reported that Jews were only allowed to work as shoe-polishers.
Contact with Afghanistan was difficult at this time and with many Jews facing persecution around the world, reports reached the outside world after a delay and were rarely researched thoroughly. Jews were allowed to emigrate in 1951 and most moved to Israel and the United States. By 1969, some 300 remained, and most of these left after the Soviet invasion of 1979, leaving 10 Afghan Jews in 1996, most of them in Kabul. As of 2007, more than 10,000 Jews of Afghan descent were living in Israel and over 200 families of Afghan Jews lived in New York City. Systemic action in Iraq:In 1948, the country was placed under martial law, and the penalties for Zionism were increased. Courts martial were used to intimidate wealthy Jews, Jews were again dismissed from civil service, quotas were placed on university positions, Jewish businesses were boycotted (E. Black, p. 347) and Shafiq Ades, one of the most important Jewish businessmen in the country (who was non-Zionist) was arrested and publicly hanged for allegedly selling goods to Israel. The Jewish community's general sentiment was that if a man as well connected and powerful as Ades could be eliminated by the state, other Jews would not be protected any longer.[135]
Additionally, like most Arab League states, Iraq forbade any legal emigration of its Jews after the 1948 war on the grounds that they might go to Israel and could strengthen that state. At the same time, increasing government oppression of the Jews fueled by anti-Israeli sentiment together with public expressions of antisemitism created an atmosphere of fear and uncertainty.
Systemic action in Egypt:Please see the bolded part below. This is a wildly terrible example of collective punishment against Jews. The Egyptian Prime Minister Mahmoud an-Nukrashi Pasha told the British ambassador: "All Jews were potential Zionists [and] ... anyhow all Zionists were Communists." On 24 November 1947, the head of the Egyptian delegation to the United Nations General Assembly, Muhammad Hussein Heykal Pasha, said, "the lives of 1,000,000 Jews in Moslem countries would be jeopardized by the establishment of a Jewish state." On 24 November 1947, Dr Heykal Pasha said: "if the U.N decide to amputate a part of Palestine in order to establish a Jewish state, ... Jewish blood will necessarily be shed elsewhere in the Arab world ... to place in certain and serious danger a million Jews." Mahmud Bey Fawzi (Egypt) said: "Imposed partition was sure to result in bloodshed in Palestine and in the rest of the Arab world."
The exodus of the foreign mutamassirun ("Egyptianized") community, which included a significant number of Jews, began following the First World War, and by the end of the 1960s the entire mutamassirun was effectively eliminated. According to Andrew Gorman, this was primarily a result of the "decolonization process and the rise of Egyptian nationalism".
The exodus of Egyptian Jews was impacted by the 1945 Anti-Jewish Riots in Egypt, though such emigration was not significant as the government stamped the violence out and the Egyptian Jewish community leaders were supportive of King Farouk. In 1948, approximately 75,000 Jews lived in Egypt. Around 20,000 Jews left Egypt during 1948–49 following the events of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War (including the 1948 Cairo bombings). A further 5,000 left between 1952 and 1956, in the wake of the Egyptian Revolution of 1952 and later the false flag Lavon Affair. The Israeli invasion as part of the Suez Crisis caused a significant upsurge in emigration, with 14,000 Jews leaving in less than six months between November 1956 and March 1957, and 19,000 further emigrating over the next decade.
Systemic action in Syria:In 1947, rioters in Aleppo burned the city's Jewish quarter and killed 75 people.As a result, nearly half of the Jewish population of Aleppo opted to leave the city,[5] initially to neighbouring Lebanon.
In 1948, there were approximately 30,000 Jews in Syria. In 1949, following defeat in the Arab–Israeli War, the CIA-backed March 1949 Syrian coup d'état installed Husni al-Za'im as the President of Syria. Za'im permitted the emigration of large numbers of Syrian Jews, and 5,000 left to Israel.
The subsequent Syrian governments placed severe restrictions on the Jewish community, including barring emigration. In 1948, the government banned the sale of Jewish property and in 1953 all Jewish bank accounts were frozen. The Syrian secret police closely monitored the Jewish community. Over the following years, many Jews managed to escape, and the work of supporters, particularly Judy Feld Carr, in smuggling Jews out of Syria, and bringing their plight to the attention of the world, raised awareness of their situation.
Although the Syrian government attempted to stop Syrian Jews from exporting their assets, the American consulate in Damascus noted in 1950 that "the majority of Syrian Jews have managed to dispose of their property and to emigrate to Lebanon, Italy, and Israel". In November 1954, the Syrian government temporarily lifted its ban on Jewish emigration. The various restrictions that the Syrian government placed on the Jewish population were severe. Jews were legally barred from working for the government or for banks, obtaining driver's licenses, having telephones in their homes or business premises, or purchasing property.
In March 1964, the Syrian government issued a decree prohibiting Jews from traveling more than three miles from the limits of their hometowns. In 1967, in the aftermath of the Six-Day War, antisemitic riots broke out in Damascus and Aleppo. Jews were allowed to leave their homes only for few hours daily. Many Jews found it impossible to pursue their business ventures because the larger community was boycotting their products. In 1970, Israel launched Operation Blanket, a covert military and intelligence operation to evacuate Syrian Jews, managing to bring a few dozen young Jews to Israel. Since some people had expressed some level of uncertainty, I wanted to take the time to just throw it all in 1 post. When all of the information is readily available, we have no incentive to be like "yeah, who knows". If anyone thinks anything above is fake news or something, please let me know, as I want to make sure I am at least working with a correct version of history. Very thorough, now please do Palestine with similar dedication. Then would you please indulge me by explaining what your examples have to do with current situation in Palestine? Is it, some Muslims there did something bad, so lets punish Muslims here for it? Truth is, examples you mentioned were atrocious and shouldn't happened (I don't think anyone on this forum would disagree with that), but what is also a truth, is that what Israel is doing in Palestine is also atrocious and shouldn't happen. I am not really sure how can you condemn one and justify another.
I did something similar, but with the specifics of how land was purchased both before and after the formation of Israel and I focused on the question of “which lands are historically purely Palestinian rather than a mix of Arab and Jewish” as a separate but relevant consideration.
The main issue is that my research did not clearly show a Jew-excluding history to Palestinian land. Many people frame the entire existence of Israel as some sort of sacrilege, and basically describe it the same as Americans committing genocide against native Americans. But when the discussion reached the point of “the sources cited on Wikipedia are wrong, and I don’t have other sources to cite, but I assure you I am right”, I just dropped it because I feel no incentive to continue once the conversation gets yucky in that way. I enjoy discussing this topic with folks because I think the history and political climate of the Middle East is unique and stimulating. But since I don’t really have some kind of relationship with either side, I don’t feel motivated to wrestle. Once the conversation gets yucky, I’m out and move on to other stuff.
Do you have a detailed explanation as to why certain areas within the greater Palestinian region should not include Jews? I was recently reading through Wikipedia articles on the topic earlier today and it seemed like Jews and Palestinians have both had their ups and downs over the last few hundred years in the region. I have had a hard time nailing down the reason Israel existing at all is fundamentally unacceptable.
|
On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupYou keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not.
Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument.
It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged.
|
On December 25 2023 12:32 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 12:09 Razyda wrote:On December 25 2023 08:36 Mohdoo wrote:On December 25 2023 07:12 Acrofales wrote:On December 25 2023 05:57 Magic Powers wrote:On December 25 2023 05:24 Mohdoo wrote:On December 24 2023 20:00 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd also like to mention that, while I do believe there was a significant level of expulsion of Jews from Arab nations, the clear majority of their movement was to Israel and their migration was mainly not under force or coercion. Labeling literally the entirety of the Jewish migration out of Arab nations "ethnic cleansing" instead of referring to more specific/isolated cases is practically painting reality as the opposite of what it is. Jews predominantly chose to leave Arab nations in the direct aftermath of Israel's creation. This is not in any capacity comparable to the literal displacement and/or the Apartheid that has been happening in the West bank. You’re painting a different picture than what I have read. Can you clarify which of the points described in the section pertaining to the Middle East you think is inaccurate? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_worldYou didn’t quantify what % was due to collective punishment, but various countries are described in detail and these descriptions paint a very different picture qualitatively. Is it that there is a specific country you’re saying wasn’t mainly from governments targeting Jews as punishment for the formation of Israel? If you read through the section on the Middle East, you’ll see some pretty extreme examples of force and coercion. Since we’ve had a couple examples of different understandings of history, it’s important to make sure we are making the same assumptions. Am I misreading your message, or are you saying the descriptions in that link above are inaccurate? The majority of Jewish migration was to Israel soon after its conception. The reason to suspect that there was foul play is because many Arab nations lost all of their Jewish population. This strongly suggests that at least a portion of Jewish migrants left due to violence and threats. But there is nothing on record that would make us suspect a much more systemic cause. That is approximately what my wife said when I asked her about Morocco. Insofar as she knows there was never an organised systemic action by the government to remove Jews from the country. Popular sentiment is, and was, against Israel, and that might have caused anti-Semitic sentiment to spill over into discrimination against local Jews. Some may have migrated to Israel because of violence or general hate. However, she knows there was an organised move from Morocco to Israel: organised by the Zionists, who promised opportunities and a better life for Jews in Israel. Morocco was very poor, so they literally left in busloads. Morocco may not be representative, as it is NOT the Middle East and the Moroccan monarchy has a strong link to the Jewish community. But it seems like a counterargument against the idea that the entire Arab world was chasing Jews out and into Israel. You're right that there is variation within the Arab world regarding chasing Jews out. And in many cases, they weren't being chased out and instead they were being prevented from emigrating while still being the targets of extreme prejudice. They didn't want them to move to Israel, but they also wanted to continue harming them, so despite all of the hateful targeting, they weren't allowed to leave in many cases. Since I know it can be annoying to need to sift through some giant Wikipedia article, I have snipped out some notable bits and done my best so separate them out into concise pieces for the sake of readability. I'm not asking you to read everything and give me a book report on it, but I do encourage you to at least read some of these. I bolded some stuff that I think is particularly notable, so if you decide you aren't gonna read much of this, please at least read the bolded stuff. There has been a lot of skepticism around here when I have eluded to these events. It is not fair for me to ask people to just take my word for it, so I have done my best to just include the notable bits rather than asking people to read 300 pages of Wikipedia. Systemic action in Afghanistan:The Afghan Jewish community declined from about 40,000 in the early 20th century to 5,000 by 1934 due to persecution. Many Afghan Jews fled to Persia, although some came to Palestine.
In 1933, following the assassination of Mohammed Nadir Shah, King of Afghanistan, Afghan Jews were declared non-citizens and many Jews in Afghanistan were expelled from their homes and robbed of their property. Jews continued living in major cities such as Kabul and Herat, under restrictions on work and trade. In 1935, the Jewish Telegraph Agency reported that "Ghetto rules" had been imposed on Afghan Jews, requiring them to wear particular clothes, that Jewish women stay out of markets, that no Jews live within certain distances of mosques and that Jews did not ride horses.
From 1935 to 1941, under Prime Minister Mohammad Hashim Khan (uncle of the King) Germany was the most influential country in Afghanistan. The Nazis regarded the Afghans (like the Iranians) as Aryans. In 1938, it was reported that Jews were only allowed to work as shoe-polishers.
Contact with Afghanistan was difficult at this time and with many Jews facing persecution around the world, reports reached the outside world after a delay and were rarely researched thoroughly. Jews were allowed to emigrate in 1951 and most moved to Israel and the United States. By 1969, some 300 remained, and most of these left after the Soviet invasion of 1979, leaving 10 Afghan Jews in 1996, most of them in Kabul. As of 2007, more than 10,000 Jews of Afghan descent were living in Israel and over 200 families of Afghan Jews lived in New York City. Systemic action in Iraq:In 1948, the country was placed under martial law, and the penalties for Zionism were increased. Courts martial were used to intimidate wealthy Jews, Jews were again dismissed from civil service, quotas were placed on university positions, Jewish businesses were boycotted (E. Black, p. 347) and Shafiq Ades, one of the most important Jewish businessmen in the country (who was non-Zionist) was arrested and publicly hanged for allegedly selling goods to Israel. The Jewish community's general sentiment was that if a man as well connected and powerful as Ades could be eliminated by the state, other Jews would not be protected any longer.[135]
Additionally, like most Arab League states, Iraq forbade any legal emigration of its Jews after the 1948 war on the grounds that they might go to Israel and could strengthen that state. At the same time, increasing government oppression of the Jews fueled by anti-Israeli sentiment together with public expressions of antisemitism created an atmosphere of fear and uncertainty.
Systemic action in Egypt:Please see the bolded part below. This is a wildly terrible example of collective punishment against Jews. The Egyptian Prime Minister Mahmoud an-Nukrashi Pasha told the British ambassador: "All Jews were potential Zionists [and] ... anyhow all Zionists were Communists." On 24 November 1947, the head of the Egyptian delegation to the United Nations General Assembly, Muhammad Hussein Heykal Pasha, said, "the lives of 1,000,000 Jews in Moslem countries would be jeopardized by the establishment of a Jewish state." On 24 November 1947, Dr Heykal Pasha said: "if the U.N decide to amputate a part of Palestine in order to establish a Jewish state, ... Jewish blood will necessarily be shed elsewhere in the Arab world ... to place in certain and serious danger a million Jews." Mahmud Bey Fawzi (Egypt) said: "Imposed partition was sure to result in bloodshed in Palestine and in the rest of the Arab world."
The exodus of the foreign mutamassirun ("Egyptianized") community, which included a significant number of Jews, began following the First World War, and by the end of the 1960s the entire mutamassirun was effectively eliminated. According to Andrew Gorman, this was primarily a result of the "decolonization process and the rise of Egyptian nationalism".
The exodus of Egyptian Jews was impacted by the 1945 Anti-Jewish Riots in Egypt, though such emigration was not significant as the government stamped the violence out and the Egyptian Jewish community leaders were supportive of King Farouk. In 1948, approximately 75,000 Jews lived in Egypt. Around 20,000 Jews left Egypt during 1948–49 following the events of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War (including the 1948 Cairo bombings). A further 5,000 left between 1952 and 1956, in the wake of the Egyptian Revolution of 1952 and later the false flag Lavon Affair. The Israeli invasion as part of the Suez Crisis caused a significant upsurge in emigration, with 14,000 Jews leaving in less than six months between November 1956 and March 1957, and 19,000 further emigrating over the next decade.
Systemic action in Syria:In 1947, rioters in Aleppo burned the city's Jewish quarter and killed 75 people.As a result, nearly half of the Jewish population of Aleppo opted to leave the city,[5] initially to neighbouring Lebanon.
In 1948, there were approximately 30,000 Jews in Syria. In 1949, following defeat in the Arab–Israeli War, the CIA-backed March 1949 Syrian coup d'état installed Husni al-Za'im as the President of Syria. Za'im permitted the emigration of large numbers of Syrian Jews, and 5,000 left to Israel.
The subsequent Syrian governments placed severe restrictions on the Jewish community, including barring emigration. In 1948, the government banned the sale of Jewish property and in 1953 all Jewish bank accounts were frozen. The Syrian secret police closely monitored the Jewish community. Over the following years, many Jews managed to escape, and the work of supporters, particularly Judy Feld Carr, in smuggling Jews out of Syria, and bringing their plight to the attention of the world, raised awareness of their situation.
Although the Syrian government attempted to stop Syrian Jews from exporting their assets, the American consulate in Damascus noted in 1950 that "the majority of Syrian Jews have managed to dispose of their property and to emigrate to Lebanon, Italy, and Israel". In November 1954, the Syrian government temporarily lifted its ban on Jewish emigration. The various restrictions that the Syrian government placed on the Jewish population were severe. Jews were legally barred from working for the government or for banks, obtaining driver's licenses, having telephones in their homes or business premises, or purchasing property.
In March 1964, the Syrian government issued a decree prohibiting Jews from traveling more than three miles from the limits of their hometowns. In 1967, in the aftermath of the Six-Day War, antisemitic riots broke out in Damascus and Aleppo. Jews were allowed to leave their homes only for few hours daily. Many Jews found it impossible to pursue their business ventures because the larger community was boycotting their products. In 1970, Israel launched Operation Blanket, a covert military and intelligence operation to evacuate Syrian Jews, managing to bring a few dozen young Jews to Israel. Since some people had expressed some level of uncertainty, I wanted to take the time to just throw it all in 1 post. When all of the information is readily available, we have no incentive to be like "yeah, who knows". If anyone thinks anything above is fake news or something, please let me know, as I want to make sure I am at least working with a correct version of history. Very thorough, now please do Palestine with similar dedication. Then would you please indulge me by explaining what your examples have to do with current situation in Palestine? Is it, some Muslims there did something bad, so lets punish Muslims here for it? Truth is, examples you mentioned were atrocious and shouldn't happened (I don't think anyone on this forum would disagree with that), but what is also a truth, is that what Israel is doing in Palestine is also atrocious and shouldn't happen. I am not really sure how can you condemn one and justify another. I did something similar, but with the specifics of how land was purchased both before and after the formation of Israel and I focused on the question of “which lands are historically purely Palestinian rather than a mix of Arab and Jewish” as a separate but relevant consideration. The main issue is that my research did not clearly show a Jew-excluding history to Palestinian land. Many people frame the entire existence of Israel as some sort of sacrilege, and basically describe it the same as Americans committing genocide against native Americans. But when the discussion reached the point of “the sources cited on Wikipedia are wrong, and I don’t have other sources to cite, but I assure you I am right”, I just dropped it because I feel no incentive to continue once the conversation gets yucky in that way. I enjoy discussing this topic with folks because I think the history and political climate of the Middle East is unique and stimulating. But since I don’t really have some kind of relationship with either side, I don’t feel motivated to wrestle. Once the conversation gets yucky, I’m out and move on to other stuff. Do you have a detailed explanation as to why certain areas within the greater Palestinian region should not include Jews? I was recently reading through Wikipedia articles on the topic earlier today and it seemed like Jews and Palestinians have both had their ups and downs over the last few hundred years in the region. I have had a hard time nailing down the reason Israel existing at all is fundamentally unacceptable.
Seems to me like you dodging the question???
Anyways you may have done something "similar" (honestly quotation marks are deserved). In your first search you focused on whether or not systemic actions against Jews in specific Muslim countries happened, in second:
"specifics of how land was purchased both before and after the formation of Israel and I focused on the question of “which lands are historically purely Palestinian rather than a mix of Arab and Jewish” as a separate but relevant consideration."
seems hardly "similar"
If you rather do something actually similar, then "Nakba" may be somewhat helpful keyword.
Also your research seems to be somewhat off topic - I am not aware of people here arguing that existence of Israel is unacceptable? (may be wrong here, didn't read every single post)
People seem to be arguing whether Israel actions are acceptable - this is different thing, isn't it?
Now why I generally enjoy your posts and different point of view, in this instance you kind of seem like another poster here, who when confronted straight forward will try to change subject and will avoid answering straight questions at all costs. So again:
On December 25 2023 12:09 Razyda wrote:
Very thorough, now please do Palestine with similar dedication. Then would you please indulge me by explaining what your examples have to do with current situation in Palestine? Is it, some Muslims there did something bad, so lets punish Muslims here for it?
Truth is, examples you mentioned were atrocious and shouldn't happened (I don't think anyone on this forum would disagree with that), but what is also a truth, is that what Israel is doing in Palestine is also atrocious and shouldn't happen. I am not really sure how can you condemn one and justify another.
Bolded ones please (admittedly last one should have question mark - apologies for that)
To maintain some etiquette of discussion I'll answer your questions:
"Do you have a detailed explanation as to why certain areas within the greater Palestinian region should not include Jews?"
No and I have never claimed that this should be the case.
Now considering that this is your only sentence ending with "?" I will reiterate it " I never thought Israel existence is unacceptable" What I am arguing is whether Israel actions are unacceptable.
Also regarding Native Americans - mechanism seems somewhat the same - allow settlers, face pushback, sent the army to defend settlers/yourself.
|
It's also fairly similar in the sense that the First Nations were not all stationary peoples and many had a nomadic lifestyle, so European settlers would come, claim some land and build houses and farms. Then the Sioux (as one of many examples) would show up and obviously be unhappy about it. They might let it pass, because the land is big and it's not worth fighting over that bit, but not too long later, more and more of their land has settlers, all of whom claim there was nobody there and they were justified in staking a claim there. Obviously the army agreed with them, war happened, the Sioux were slaughtered. Rinse and repeat further west a few years later.
|
I can see how the messy creation of the State of Israel and the related violence has engendered lasting hate between Jews and Arabs, considering both sides think they were wronged (and probably were), that doesn't make Israel or Hamas's current actions any more justifiable or worse.
|
|
|
On December 25 2023 13:18 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2023 02:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupYou keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. Cite where I claimed it was a novel argument. It wasn't me who brought up ethnic cleansing. When someone is going to falsely claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing I am well within my rights to push back. If you don't want to keep going down this path then stop claiming it. I am not going to let antisemitic lies go unchallenged.
Sigh. Now we're back at completely unfounded accusations of anti-semitism. You really should read the thread for the better of everyone, including yourself. Do yourself and us a favor and don't waste your time and ours repeating ad nauseum all the things that everyone in this thread has already gone over at least once.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
