EPTThings Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 160
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12468 Posts
On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote: Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. No, intent is an important part of the definition, you do need it. It's generally an obstacle to proving these because officials don't usually say out loud that they intend to do ethnic cleansing. But in the specific case they keep saying it again and again every other interview so we're set. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On December 24 2023 20:04 Nebuchad wrote: No, intent is an important part of the definition, you do need it. It's generally an obstacle to proving these because officials don't usually say out loud that they intend to do ethnic cleansing. But in the specific case they keep saying it again and again every other interview so we're set. The reason why I don't think intent is necessary is simple: being responsible for the actions or the events, whether directly or implicitly, is what matters. Responsibility does not require intent, it requires being implicit. For example if I'm aware that I'm driving a stolen car, then I'm implicit in theft, even if I didn't steal the car myself. Or if I'm aware that I'm driving criminals to a crime scene, then I'm implicit in their crime. The question of responsibility for the crime therefore is independent of the question of whether I want the crime to take place or to have taken place. The State of Israel is at the very least implicit in ethnic cleansing, and this strictly cannot be denied. There is no world in which it can be denied. However, intent can absolutely be denied. The state can argue that the intent is the protection of the Jewish settlers. The state is however implicit in the crimes being committed by the settlers, and thus their intent becomes nothing more than a rhetorical trick meant to gaslight people. The State of Israel is implicated in the actions/events and therefore responsible for it. The settlers are the frontline actors, which is of course equally bad, but it's a distinct action. The state's action is that of support for the settlers, both militarily and financially. It is important to remove intent from the question of responsibility because it is difficult to prove intent. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12468 Posts
On December 24 2023 22:18 JimmiC wrote: Sure they do, just look at all various hate groups funded and backed by Iran as well as many of the countries surrounding Isreal. And to further his point about the think tanks, just look how nettles all the sudden agrees and if you look further you will see many tankies are also really concerned about the Nazis in Ukraine. Ok | ||
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flashymarine
54 Posts
On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote: Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group You keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. | ||
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flashymarine
54 Posts
On December 24 2023 20:00 Magic Powers wrote: I'd also like to mention that, while I do believe there was a significant level of expulsion of Jews from Arab nations, the clear majority of their movement was to Israel and their migration was mainly not under force or coercion. Labeling literally the entirety of the Jewish migration out of Arab nations "ethnic cleansing" instead of referring to more specific/isolated cases is practically painting reality as the opposite of what it is. Jews predominantly chose to leave Arab nations in the direct aftermath of Israel's creation. This is not in any capacity comparable to the literal displacement and/or the Apartheid that has been happening in the West bank. Ethnic Cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group You are incorrect about a lot of things but you are right about one thing. It is not comparable to what is happening in the West Bank. The Arab world ethnically cleansed their jewish populations since 1948. Israel's Arab population on the other hand has increased. The population of Palestine has increased. It is absurd to think practically all Jews in all Middle Eastern countries all at once decided to leave and go to Israel. It ignores that Israel was invaded on the day of its creation by its Arab neighbors. It ignores the virulent antisemitism that lead directly to the fleeing. Pretending it was "voluntary" does not make it so. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12468 Posts
On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote: Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group Thanks for this helpful definition. Maybe you should call the dictionary and tell them to add those other things that you mentioned afterwards in the definition, that way your claim would be correct. Until then, I guess we'll stick with this definition, and under this definition Israel is obviously doing it. | ||
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Cerebrate1
265 Posts
That said, none of those is analogous to our case. Ethnic cleansing didn't happen because the West Bank and Gaza are demonstrably not cleansed of their Arab populations. You might make other accusations of Israel (as has been done thoroughly in this thread), but they haven't actually done an ethnic cleansing action. To get back to our analogy, this would be like shooting a gun and missing the guy completely (if it had intent) or alternatively, just not shooting the gun at all (if it didn't have intent). I posit that in the 56 years since 1967, if they haven't ethnically cleansed the place yet, they are beyond hopelessly incompetent at it and no one should be concerned that they will (or more likely, they haven't actually intended to do that in the first place). Especially given that every historical ethnic cleansing I can think of has taken place over a most a decade or so, but usually much less. Either way, the debate would not be whether there had been an ethnic cleansing, merely if there was failed intent to do so or not. | ||
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flashymarine
54 Posts
On December 24 2023 23:37 Nebuchad wrote: Thanks for this helpful definition. Maybe you should call the dictionary and tell them to add those other things that you mentioned afterwards in the definition, that way your claim would be correct. Until then, I guess we'll stick with this definition, and under this definition Israel is obviously doing it. Nope sorry try again. They never rendered any area ethnically homogenous. Words have meanings. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12468 Posts
On December 25 2023 01:39 flashymarine wrote: Nope sorry try again. They never rendered any area ethnically homogenous. Words have meanings. Sure they did. All of the areas that they settled. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote: Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group You keep claiming that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing. If that were true you would have expected either the Arab population of Israel to have decreased or the population of Palestine to have decreased significantly. Neither of these things happened. The Palestinian population has been forcefully removed and secluded from many areas in the West bank, and this has resulted in a massive increase of Jewish settlers in those same areas. Forcefully displacing people from an area based on ethnicity is ethnic cleansing, there are no two ways about it. Israel has displaced people and is occupying the space left behind with Jewish people. This cannot be denied. We've been through this argument front to back in this thread. You should read it instead of acting like you're presenting a novel argument. You're not. | ||
KwarK
United States44077 Posts
On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote: Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. In English unintentional killing is manslaughter. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On December 25 2023 02:36 JimmiC wrote: Source on the demographics for the settlements? They're exclusively Jewish. Are you actually going to dispute this? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12468 Posts
On December 25 2023 02:36 JimmiC wrote: Source on the demographics for the settlements? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On December 25 2023 02:43 KwarK wrote: In English unintentional killing is manslaughter. Generally speaking intent (as per the legal definition) is proven before a murder sentence, but it is not a requirement to do so. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On December 24 2023 12:54 WombaT wrote: I mean one can argue the point, it’s just preposterous so why bother? I’m not a history expert by any means but did anything happen between 1948 and now, perhaps the establishment and solidification of a hypothetical state where Jews could emigrate to, in the vague vicinity that might account for some of the direction of travel? Or I mean if you’re posting some infographic at least give the source. Come on, Saudi Arabia, who loves all that Western money and is happy to shelve principles for it. ‘0 Jews since the Middle Ages’. Jordan? None? The UAE, none? Ridiculous. Kwark was absolutely correct to give you short shrift, if anything this wasn’t even worth engaging with whatsoever. It’s not from immigration though. I’ve posted extensively about the specific measures Arab nations used to punish Jews in other countries for the formation of Israel. Jews were targeted as a group for reasons completely unrelated to them. They were squeezed out of these nations very intentionally and for reasons purely related to their religious identity. | ||
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